Episode 118 · 25 July 2024 · 55:05
How to find happiness working abroad, with Nathan Cornwell
Featuring Nathan Cornwell
How to find happiness working abroad, with Nathan Cornwell
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Nathan's origin story — from Australia to organisational psychology
interview#organisational psychology#career journey#australia
Nathan's experience living in China
interview#living in china#expat experience#cultural immersion
What the research says about expat challenges
The unique mental health pressures of expat life
Advice for navigating low moments abroad
Personality traits that draw people to expat life
interview#personality traits#expat motivation#adventure seeking
Running toward vs. running away
interview#motivation#escape#personal growth
The FLAIR model for expat transitions
Breaking down FLAIR: Financial, Logistics, Adaptation, Interpersonal, Retention
interview#flair model#financial planning#logistics#adaptation
How Nathan supports expats as an external consultant and where to find him
Show notes
How to Find Happiness Working Abroad — with Nathan Cornwell
Guest: Nathan Cornwell — organisational psychologist and talent management consultant specialising in expat support, with clients including PwC, Rolls Royce, KPMG, and the United Nations.
Living abroad sounds like the dream. But the research tells a more complicated story — and the difference between thriving and packing your bags often comes down to psychology, not logistics.
Nathan joins Al and Leanne to unpack the realities of expat life, drawing on his own experience living in China and his work supporting globally mobile employees. They explore the two types of expat (those running toward something and those running away), the hidden pressures of working for a foreign company, and the personality traits that predict who flourishes abroad — and who heads home early.
Nathan also introduces the FLAIR model, a practical framework for successful expat transitions, and shares advice for organisations on how to genuinely support their people overseas.
Top 3 Takeaways
Know which expat you are. Are you running toward something — a role, an adventure, a lifestyle — or running away from something at home? The research suggests your motivation shapes how you cope when things get hard abroad.
Culture shock doesn't follow a straight line. The lows often hit after the initial excitement fades, and they can be amplified when you're working for a foreign company with different communication styles and unspoken expectations. Anticipate the dip — it's normal, not a sign you've failed.
The FLAIR model is your checklist. Financial, Logistics, Adaptation, Interpersonal, Retention. The last one — planning your return or your next move — gets overlooked most often, and it's where many expats stumble.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Nathan CornwellWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Nathan CornwellHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name's Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Nathan CornwellWe're here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottHello, hello, welcome back. This is almost our very last July episode. Um, if you remember, we've been telling you all of July, you must be sick of this now, just fast forward 30 seconds. But if you, if you haven't heard these episodes before, July is all about interviews and guest stories. In August, we're going back to our Tuesday episode Only Tuesdays where it is just a bit more lighthearted. It's called This Week in Work format where we talk about the latest news around workplace culture, and we also have the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Shall I— you realise, Leanne, I've only got like 2 more days of saying that.
Nathan CornwellHey, I've only got 2 more days of listening to it then.
Al ElliottOkay, you can see professional and harmonious as ever. Le, what's going on today?
Nathan CornwellYes, today to maybe get us in the holiday mood, some living and working abroad is always a nice thought. I'm sure you might be You might be laid back on your sun lounger now thinking this is the life. Well, I can tell you it is. Today we have an interview with a guy who has lived in more than 50 countries and is one of the world experts on the psychology of expats. Regular listeners will know that we ourselves have lived in a similar number of countries over the last 10 years, so we have had our fair share of expattery, a term that, um, Al coined last week.
Nathan CornwellYeah.
Nathan CornwellIf you know, you know. However, our guest takes it to another level. After getting a master's in psychology, he's dedicated years to researching what makes expats happy and fulfilled, and why some expats end up heading back home after just a few months.
Al ElliottYes, our guest today is a consultant who helps companies to build successful workplaces, regardless of where they are in the world. Working with organisations like, are you ready for this? PwC, Rolls-Royce, KPMG, and the United Nations. Our guest, Nathan Cornwell, is probably the world expert in helping expats— that's not easy to say— to settle into their new work and home life. Oh, and stay until the end where we're going to tell you how you can get free advice and coaching from Nathan, but only for our listeners. Shh, don't tell anyone else. So let's go and join the interview with Leanne as Leanne asks Nathan about his time in China and why he chose to specialize in psychology.
Nathan CornwellMy name is Nathan. I'm an organizational psychologist and talent management consultant. I specialize in employability, and I also have my own Consultancy that focuses on helping support expats in the workplace get success. So that's kind of the main thing that I'm trying to promote across the world, trying to get people into meaningful work, especially international employees.
Nathan CornwellAmazing. I want to start with your origin story. Why psychology and why organisational psychology?
Nathan CornwellSo I'd gone to Australia, and in Australia there's a lot of long roads to travel out there. And actually my mum had bought me a Kindle and it was in this Kindle that I'd started downloading a lot of these kind of self-help psychology type books. So on these long roads from town to town in Australia, I kind of buried myself deep into some of these psychology-based books. And also I was meeting a lot of people at the time, so it was quite— I quite enjoyed that and quite enjoyed that about traveling in general is meeting different people from different places, trying to sort of understand them, understand their perceptions of the world.
Al ElliottYeah.
Nathan CornwellSo I guess collectively this experience of going to Australia, reading all these books kind of got me interested in psychology. So I actually came back to the UK. I did a psychology master's. It was sort of straightforward psychology. It wasn't tailored to organizational psychology at that point. It was only several years later, after I'd been to China and I'd been working out there with the British Chamber, that I kind of got this taste for wanting to help organizations wanting to sort of support employees and organizations. And I've done a lot of work around learning and development, so kind of setting up employability-based workshops, trying to promote young professionals to upskill and find ways to excel in their careers. So collectively, this made the most sense for me when choosing a branch of psychology. So having a big impact in the world was always a career motivation, if you like. Being able to now combine that with sort of travel, expats, culture, it's ticking a lot of boxes for me. So that's why I'm really interested in this field.
Nathan CornwellSo tell us about China. You mentioned in your introduction there that you were over there. Can you tell us a bit about how you got there? What brought you there? Was it work? And what was your experience like? I mean, culturally, it's a very different part of the world.
Nathan CornwellI've lived in several countries now, and that was always If ever I think back about it, it was always my biggest challenge was going to China for the first time. Actually, I must have been feeling quite brave. I think that's one of the perks of being quite sort of young and naive at the time. I didn't really consider it too much. I just got a job offer, booked a flight, and next minute I was sort of out in China. And it was November time, so in Beijing in November it's freezing cold. So jumping off the plane, Yeah. in that kind of chilly weather was a shock to the system. But then you've got all these other obstacles to overcome, just language being one of the biggest. There wasn't much English there, so trying to get a taxi from the airport to the hotel I was staying at was the first challenge. And then, of course, even just ordering food and trying to find something to eat was the next challenge because all the menus I could see were all in Chinese Hanzi. So it was very difficult to find something to eat and then sort of settle. But once I did get settled, I think it took, I would say, the best part of 6 or 7 months to actually start to feel like I was able to embrace the culture a little bit more and able to sort of— I think it comes down to finding a social group as well. When you find like-minded people, and this is something that I always encourage other expats to do, is find sort of like-minded people that have been through this experience with you. Generally, they happen to be people of your own nationality, but obviously there's a lot of different expats that can support you. But they understand the kind of cultural differences more aligned with how you're experiencing them too. So that's why I've always sort of leant on British people and seen them abroad and connected with them to kind of help me overcome sort of the first few months in a country. As I say, so after 7 or 8 months, I think I started to feel a bit more accustomed to the place and then you start to really enjoy it. Every day was exciting. Every day something new would be happening. You'd just be walking to work and you'd see something you'd never sort of seen before. It's a little bit chaotic in its own nice way, but I think that's what made it quite addictive. And then I think the struggle actually, after spending 6 years there, is reacclimatising back to the UK after you've spent so long there. Because everything that was convenient and enjoyable there is sort of taken away, if you like. It all becomes a bit more structured when you get back to the UK. So that was something that is another challenge that expats face, is actually repatriating back to their home country after spending time abroad. There was one moment, I don't know if I should share this out loud, but I got into slight trouble with the police because And this was no fault of my own, I would say, but it was kind of a bar fight that was happening nearby and the police came by and just basically took everybody into the police station. So I found myself in this barred cell with a couple of other expats that didn't really know why they were there, you know, kind of just been scooped up in the mass. And so we're kind of working out how to—
Al ElliottYeah.
Nathan Cornwellsort of negotiate our way out because we didn't feel like we'd done anything. This was also like within my first few weeks in China. It was a little bit crazy, but eventually I managed to get out. We had to kind of sign this form, which was all in Chinese, by the way. So I had no idea what I'd signed at the time, but I was quite fortunate afterwards to kind of have that fresh air again as we got out. And I thought, well, that was kind of a moment I never anticipated before.
Nathan CornwellYeah.
Nathan CornwellBefore coming out here.
Al ElliottNow, for our story is that we left the UK back in 2013, and since then have lived and worked in 50+ countries, just like Nathan.
Nathan Cornwell51, to be exact.
Al ElliottAnyway, so we worked in 50+ countries, and we've met our fair share of expats, a lot of whom are quite—
Nathan CornwellUnique.
Al ElliottI was going to say, kind of weird.
Nathan CornwellYou will get cancelled. What if I told you about this?
Al ElliottAnyway, we We've, we've found— sorry, Nathan. We found that there are generally 2 types of expat: those who move for work and those who move independent of work like us. So what are the main differences and the challenges of these 2 types of expat? Why does it sometimes not work out? And does all this really take a toll on mental health? Nathan's done the research and knows the answers. Let's rejoin the interview with Leanne.
Nathan CornwellWhat does the research tell us about the challenges that expats experience in terms of their psychology, their mental health, and how do people best, I guess, prepare for and then manage those if they are listening and recognising some of those challenges?
Nathan CornwellYeah, I think, you know, from the research I've done personally and just the research I've seen out there, I mean, one of the biggest predictors of expat success is having a social circle around you And that can come from family, that can come from friends, colleagues, that can come from the organisation, the HR. You know, as more— the more people supporting the expat, the more likely they are to succeed. And I think one of the interesting research areas that I did was during the pandemic, and I was out in China trying to understand how expats' wellbeing was being impacted by the lockdown of the country. And we kind of did 4 research phases, but it was clear very early on that expats were being impacted quite significantly, especially if you compared it to the locals that also did the same research. And kind of one of our conclusions was that a lot of the locals still had those social networks around them. They still had family, they still had friends, whereas expats, you know, they That option was closed off to go back home, for instance. Speaking personally, I missed out on a lot of weddings, a lot of different events that were happening back in the UK. That option was, was not there for me. And I could feel myself and people around me slowly sort of trying to be as resilient as possible, but just really struggling with the situation. And I think that really emphasizes the importance of, of these social circles that you're in. I think whilst that route back home was closed off to me, I actually got stronger connections with those around me and we were able to sort of support each other through it. And I think that's one of the big mental health struggles for a lot of expats is the loneliness aspect. It's the isolation sometimes that you face. And again, I've sort of had to go through this process more recently because I've moved to the UAE and I don't have that social network that I had in China now. So I've kind of started from scratch again. And sometimes you sort of struggle with not having lots of people to rely on for help, but also not having people to hang out with as much. You know, you're trying to go to these different networking events and meet people and see if you can connect with them as much as possible. But I think the isolation aspect is one of the biggest mental health challenges for those that are living abroad. And that was again clear in the research that I did in terms of How it impacted the wellbeing. What was quite interesting again about that research I did was, you know, organizational support was the biggest thing that kind of moderated and supported wellbeing for the individuals in the study. So that was kind of the emphasis that I placed on organizations was whilst we're going through this kind of crisis, if organizations are able to do something to kind of support expats specifically, then that will really help them to kind of cope. Yeah. Continue to perform and engage, but also protect their wellbeing. So it was kind of a way to place that onus again on organisations to really help to support expats whilst they're abroad, finding these creative ways to do that. Because I guess it's sometimes hard for organisations, especially if they're local themselves, to understand exactly what expats are facing, what they're going through, especially if they're So removed from the local culture. So yeah, I guess they have to be creative in different ways. They have to talk to the expats, understand exactly what would support them in that situation. I think certain organisations do it quite well. Certainly the schools that I've worked in previously, they were quite good at sort of finding ways that they could still benefit you, giving you perks such as time off, you know, time to Go out of the country and come back, you know, having a bit more leeway there. That's what some of the schools began to do. And I think that was good for education industry, but not necessarily for some of the other industries out there. So again, I think organizations— not that we'd ever face that situation again anytime soon, I don't know, who knows— but, you know, sort of learning from these things and trying to sort of implement them in the future would be a good Good way to implement the lessons learned.
Nathan CornwellI'm curious, as you're talking, what I'm thinking is, do expats experience some mental health challenges differently? Like burnout, for example. Is that a universal experience or does that look a bit different for expats?
Nathan CornwellYeah, I was talking to someone the other day about kind of the pressure of working as an expat, because often you're hired as an expert and you're brought into an organisation and expected to kind of work at a very high level. Which can also encourage a lot of pressure on you in terms of the workload given to you, the kind of demands that are placed on you. And sometimes, you know, you don't get that support. You don't get the time to kind of settle in the country. Sometimes, you know, first day you're straight into work and expected to reel off all these tasks. There's an expectation that you're going to perform quite highly. And I think that's one of the sort of Things to be wary of, especially when you're going out there for financial reasons. There's a lot of nice financial packages abroad, but with that comes these extra pressures. So I think, as you say, burnout can come for these expats because they're in expert roles. So trying to understand exactly what the different causes are for individuals is important. So is it the fact that they're overworking because Their expectations are there. Maybe it's to do with the level of demands that are placed on them, or the expectations are more than they actually anticipated before coming abroad. Maybe again, it's that social support that they're not receiving in their new team because they're having cultural issues. I don't know if they're not able to gel with their team as much. There's lots of different ways that burnout can be forced. But yeah, I guess understanding the root cause for Each person can be different, but I think it's certainly a factor that comes out in a lot of expats that are abroad, especially at the leadership level. Right. Because I think there's a lot of expats that get brought out to kind of be leaders. And as I say, if they've not experienced working abroad before, they're facing pressures that they've never anticipated before. They're dealing with cultures that they perhaps never worked with before, trying to control and motivate teams.
Al ElliottYeah.
Nathan CornwellThat might have their own style, you know, depending on where they've come from. So I think there's certainly a lot of burnout that occurs at the leadership level. I also had a really interesting conversation the other day with an expat, and we talked about the visa process. You know, in a lot of countries, your company is your sponsor, and for that reason, sometimes you're kind of— I don't want to say You know, held hostage. I think that's too severe, but you're almost— they can sort of control you a little bit more, which, you know, if you're someone who wants that autonomy, if you're someone who's perhaps later in your career and you're wanting to settle down in that new country, and yet your company's got control of that, it really puts an extra pressure on you. So if there's a way in any contract to kind of Sponsor your own visa, I know certain countries allow that, then that can really sort of take the pressure off a little bit and kind of set you up for a bit of success. I think it's important obviously to do your research in terms of understanding what other perks are out there for other packages, you know, in terms of perhaps the finances or whether you get housing included. There's lots of different aspects that can be added onto these packages, but research will give you the best sort of insights. I know a lot of people jump onto Facebook or social media groups to kind of understand what the lay of the land looks like before coming out. Sometimes, I mean, again, I found this in China, you don't know what to expect until you make it out here. I think all the stuff that was online was not as accurate as it was when I arrived and I could actually see and talk to people people in person. It was like it's a whole new market, if you like, and you start to understand what was being offered there and what a typical contract could look like. I think anything that can support that ease of moving abroad is also important. So that could be logistical aspects, it could be support for the family coming over, it could be stuff around housing. Getting someone to support you find a house or find somewhere to live, because these are all the friction aspects that you'll face once you move abroad. So trying to take them away as much as possible is going to really help you start performing quicker, you know, have a steadier landing, if you like, when you move to that new country. So yeah, it does vary from country to country, organization to organization. So it It takes some proactive research, I guess, to try and understand exactly whether you've got a good deal or not. And I think, yeah, just communicating with people. LinkedIn's obviously a great resource for connecting with people that are in that country. So having some conversations and trying to understand what it's like from their eye view, and then you'll start to understand whether the deal you've got is going to be a good one or not. I would always encourage people to have an experience abroad because I think, you know, speaking personally, I think it's always It's helped me with my sort of professional development, and I've got a lot of value from it. So I would always encourage people to do it, but I think there are aspects that potentially could sort of derail that move abroad. And I think one of the dangers that organizations overlook is actually choosing people based on talent when they're thinking about getting them to move abroad for an international assignment. And I think just basing your decision on talent could have potential downfalls because individuals that are talented in their home country don't necessarily have that capability when they're abroad. This could be for a number of factors. It could be the fact that, again, going into that personality piece, they're not necessarily people that were kind of high on openness, if you like. They're not necessarily that curious to kind of understand what the new culture is like. So kind of monitoring for these aspects is really important and understanding that we need to think about how we support that individual if we are bringing them abroad, what other factors that we can put around them to really help them succeed. Because you can't just sort of bring them over and leave them to their own devices. It needs that support system around that individual to help them succeed. I think the other factors are around kind of their Families, you know, are they coming with families? Families has a kind of a two-way effect, you know, on the positive aspects, it can really help individuals, you know, they're supported by their family, they don't suffer from loneliness as much if they've become an expat. On the other hand, their family might react differently to this move abroad, which can cause extra pressures on that individual, not just to kind of support them back, but actually— Yeah. It puts pressure on the individual who's actually uprooted them from their lives at home to bring them out to another country, and now they've got to all adapt to it. So it can put pressures on that individual working abroad. So these are a couple of red flags I consider, and I think it's on the organisation and an onus on them to really support these individuals as good as possible to help them succeed and overcome some of these red flag aspects.
Nathan CornwellI mean, if anyone's listening and perhaps is feeling in one of these low moments, is there any advice that you'd give them if they are an expat and they're struggling right now?
Nathan CornwellI really empathise with a lot of people that go through these lows because I know, as you're saying, that there can be real lows when you're abroad and you're away from family and friends and you haven't got those support systems around you. And I guess that's kind of something That's been a running theme for me in terms of the conversation we've had and also the research I've done. I think finding social support is going to be the best way to kind of bring you out of one of these lows. And there's different ways you can do that. You know, you can get on social media or you can find— Meetup is a really nice app that has lots of different groups that meet up for different reasons. Maybe it's a new hobby that they're learning. Maybe it's, you know, getting together as a book club. There's different things that they'll do. And this is one thing that I always encourage people that are sort of going through one of these troughs is once you're at a point where you feel like you can get out and try and socialise again, that's really a good way to help you enjoy the time that you're spending abroad. I guess now looking back at the experiences I've had, it's always been experiences I've had with other people that are the ones that sort of stick. So meeting these these individuals from different places sharing these different sort of crazy stories, if you like, has always been something that I've kept memorable. And I think in every place that I've been to, the first sort of group of friends that I've met have not always been people that I would imagine meeting. So until you actually go out and start coming to some of these events, you just never know who you're going to encounter. Who's going to become your best pal while you're away? You know, it's quite interesting looking back now. But yeah, I think that's one of the important aspects, is just knowing that. The other aspect, I mean, is just knowing that you can always come home to— again, speaking quite broadly, but just having that option to come back is really important. Again, going back to the research.
Al ElliottYeah.
Nathan CornwellI did during the pandemic, when that was shut off, that route was shut off, that was quite impactful on a lot of expats. So I think ensuring that that route is always available is something that is important. So just withstanding some of these troughs, if you like, but also knowing the peak is coming at some point once you've kind of overcome some of that cultural adjustment. If you're a recent expat, it's good to hold on to. I wrote a LinkedIn post a little while back about kind of the 4 different stages of cultural adjustment. I think, you know, you start off in this honeymoon phase where everything's new, you kind of find it exciting and curious, and then you go through one of these troughs where you start to realise you're not on holiday, you're actually having to live in that country and sort of struggle every day with the language, you know. And then it kind of gradually goes back up, you know, you start to adapt and you start to come a culture to that country. And I think once you've kind of ridden that wave, if you like, and really embraced the culture, then you're always going to cherish the time that you spent abroad and look back one day, at least I hope I will, and be quite proud of what I've done and what I've achieved working abroad.
Al ElliottAs promised, if you've got this far then and you want to ask Nathan some questions, then you can. We're bringing Nathan back in a few weeks' time for a free workshop. If you want a totally free ticket, then head over to truthliesandwork.com/workshop and pop your email in. We'll let you know when the dates are finalised.
Nathan CornwellAfter this short break, we'll hear more from Nathan about the personality types of expats, plus details of a model he calls FLAIR that's proven to help expats settle more easily. See you in a sec. Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Nathan CornwellAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Nathan CornwellThe audio destination.
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Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Nathan CornwellWe've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Nathan CornwellIt is. It's such an interesting topic. It's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Nathan CornwellIt can.
Nathan CornwellAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Nathan CornwellBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
Nathan CornwellDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. Come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. Let's rejoin the interview where Leanne, ever the psychologist, wants to know if there are certain personality traits that draw people to expat life. Oh, and we ask Nathan a tough question about his own motivations for living the expat life.
Nathan CornwellDo expats have certain personality traits that draw them to that type of life?
Nathan CornwellYeah, it's interesting. I was very curious about kind of the types of people that were out in China. If I was to broadly put them into 2 categories, there were a lot of people sort of out there for a new experience, out there to kind of see a different part of the world. Everyone's got some curiosity about kind of the East and sort of understanding what Asian culture is like, especially because it's so different to to the West and the UK, for example. So there was a category of people that I put into that box. They were kind of out there to kind of explore and see something new. There was another category of people which I don't know how to politely sort of describe them, but a little bit strange, sort of running away from something. I don't know whether they'd been sort of cast out by their own social groups in some sort of way, but I mean, they kept things fun, you know, meeting them and understanding their background. was quite interesting to hear. But yeah, I got the sense that they'd sort of come to China without much of a plan and they were kind of sort of trying to find their way a little bit. So I kind of broadly bucket them into 2 aspects. But if we think back to sort of personality, now there was a broad range of different personalities in terms of the expats I'd met, but there was a big difference in terms of the ones that were sort of successful as expats and that wanted to stay there and kind of embrace the culture. And I guess thinking of the Big 5 traits, 2 of the big ones that would probably predict, and in the research I've seen, predicts kind of expat success are around extroversion. So those that are kind of willing to get out there and meet people, because people is such a strong component of settling in, kind of enjoying the experience altogether, not just meeting expats, but meeting locals, those that are a bit highly extroverted, are willing to go and do these networking events or go to social events, things like that. They tend to do pretty well. And again, I think the research backs that up. The other, the other big of the Big 5 traits is openness. So, so people are high in openness, you know, being curious, being willing to try new things out, especially when you go to China, you have to try all these different types of food, which are fantastic. Most of the time, but some of the time, as I say, you're not sure what you're eating exactly. And I think if you weren't so high in openness, that might be a bit of a struggle. But I think that's another conversation is how much does kind of living abroad and being in these different cultures perhaps tweak your personality in some respects? Because I know I saw a lot of people that started off quite sort of boxed in, especially if we go down the food routes. They just wanted to try the Western food on the menu. But over time, they started opening up, they started trying new things, and I think that really benefited them and helped them to sort of personally develop and be a bit more curious about different things. And I've seen that not just in China, but in other countries that I've lived in. I think there is a sort of slight tweak to your personality in terms of increasing that openness aspect. So, yeah, I'd say they are 2 big factors that kind of its success as an expat, if we're looking at sort of personality.
Nathan CornwellAnd how about your— you said there that personality can change and be moulded depending on the environment that you're in. Is that something you've experienced yourself? How has your personality changed?
Nathan CornwellI've certainly thought about in other people, but maybe not necessarily myself as much. I think one thing that's really helped is, yeah, neuroticism. I've never necessarily been someone that's been high on neuroticism. I've always sort of been in the middle, but I think having these experiences has kind of lowered that a little bit because you have to be quite resilient in certain situations because you're thrown into lots of situations you never thought you'd be in. For instance, when I first got to China, I wasn't necessarily financially prepared for the move. So When I arrived, I didn't realise you needed about 5 months' worth of rent to actually find somewhere to live, which is quite a significant amount, right? It's not necessarily that small, even though compared to the UK, it was still cheaper. Finding 5 months of rent was still a bit of a challenge. So I had to kind of try and find my own way in a certain sense and find Airbnbs to live in, you know, for a week and then move somewhere else, basically waiting for that first pay package to come. And during this period of time where I was sort of slowly running out of money, I was preparing myself for an interview. And I, without being too graphic, I know you mentioned, uh, this is not a family show, so maybe I can mention this story, but I was preparing for a job interview and I was trying to make a hole in my belt and I slipped with this pair of scissors. And it went straight through my finger, which sort of really put a dampener on the day because I couldn't go to this interview in the end and I had to go to hospital. I wasn't covered by medical insurance at the time either because it hadn't sort of kicked in yet. So then I'm in a hospital having to get it stitched up, having to pay money that I thought I was saving up for this new apartment I was going to get. And really sort of struggling with that whole situation. And it was still early days in my kind of China experience. So those type of incidents, I obviously had to overcome it. And I think the other thing is when things like that happen, you don't want to just fly back. You have this sort of extra pressure to kind of maintain your status out there, maintain your expat life, because it's almost a little bit embarrassing, if you like.
Al ElliottYeah.
Nathan CornwellThat there's that sort of sense of pressure your family might put on you or your friends. They might think, oh, if he's come back too early, he's sort of failed at that experience. So that kind of makes you want to be more resilient in these situations. So that's just one example where I think I've kind of changed slightly personality-wise. I think I've become a bit more resilient, a bit more patient in a lot of situations. And I guess the other thing is just again, becoming more extroverted, a bit more social, because you have to do that to meet people. Otherwise you're sort of stuck indoors. And I've always been slightly more social anyway, but I think that's had to sort of increase to a certain extent to just help me settle in these new countries and go into a bar and walk up to someone you've never met before and just sort of start a conversation, because that's the only way you meet new people.
Nathan CornwellYou mentioned at the beginning that expats fit into large buckets. They're either running towards something or they're running away from something. So I have to ask, which one are you?
Nathan CornwellYeah, I often question that myself sometimes. Of course, I would always try and say I'm running. Well, I don't know if I'd say I'm running. Maybe that's the wrong way to phrase it myself. I like to explore. And I think one of the difficulties I've found now is actually settling back down in my home country. It was only a few months ago that I was back in the UK and I was debating whether I should stay there and I got an opportunity to move abroad again and something ignited inside me that said, okay, this is a great opportunity to go and see another culture, see a different perspective of the world and also the business world, a different way of working. So I guess, yeah, it's hard for me now to really understand what it's like to be back in the UK. I find it sometimes a little bit, not mundane, but like, I think the experiences you have abroad are so kind of extreme in certain situations that it's almost like an addictive feeling. So maybe there's a bit of me that's running back away. I'm not sure, but I think certainly when I went out in the first place to start working as an expat. I was— I would call myself an explorer, if you like. Um, but yeah, we'll see what the future holds for this kind of thing.
Al ElliottLeah, it's been a couple of weeks since you spoke to Nathan. Is there anything you want to add here now that you've heard his thoughts again?
Nathan CornwellI think just a little bit more on personality and expats, um, and some of the research that's been done. It's really interesting. So, Nathan mentioned there the Big 5 personality traits, uh, the Big 5 for short. If you haven't heard of it, it's a pretty trusted model in psychology, personality psychology. It's known for being very reliable, widely applicable, widely accepted as well in the community. So, the Big 5 are openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. And it's a trait-based model. So, that means that we all fall somewhere on the spectrum. Some of us score high on these traits, others low. And this model has been used by researchers to examine the effects of personality of expats on adjusting to their new environments and on job performance. Again, speaking very broadly here, but openness to experience. So this trait involves being curious and open to new experiences. So perhaps unsurprisingly, expats that score highly in openness embrace new cultures, adapt quickly, and that leads to greater happiness and success. Agreeableness, another of the Big 5. This trait involves being cooperative and empathetic. Agreeable expats will form harmonious relationships with locals and other expats, and that will enhance their overall happiness. Then we have neuroticism. Individuals high in neuroticism may experience anxiety and emotional instability. Again, perhaps not that surprisingly, expats with high neuroticism may struggle more with stress and homesickness, which could then hinder their success and happiness. Research specifically highlights that these traits can influence expatriate adjustment, and job performance. So, it does mean that also understanding these traits could help companies better support their expats and tailor resources to enhance their experience. And of course, if you are thinking of living and working abroad, understanding your own personality might give you some insights into how you'll adjust.
Al ElliottYeah, just think about this: the openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, neuroticism. Um, just your thoughts. I mean, I think I probably score highly on the extroversion and probably the openness. Does that sound about right?
Nathan CornwellYeah, yeah.
Al ElliottWhere do you score highly? Because I think you complement me somehow.
Nathan CornwellI think I score high, high on openness as well. I think the one where I probably— I would imagine I score higher than you would be on conscientiousness. And I think that's where, um, my conscientiousness would kick in when, in particular, when we were nomading and we were moving every few weeks. I'd be the one going, right, where are we going next? Let's look at hotels, let's look at Airbnbs, let's get this. How are we traveling there? Where are we going? What vaccines do we need? Um, so yeah, I think my, my little organizational side maybe kicked in a little bit in, in places.
Al ElliottAnd that is something that's cool about traveling as a couple, is that especially if you've got a couple where, like Leanne says, she does— I don't think I booked a single Airbnb. We stayed in like over 250 of them over 10 years. I don't think I booked a single one, um, because Leanne is always like, right, I'll find them, I'll find them, I'll do it and everything. And that's, that's what's really cool about when you are travelling as a, as a couple. So if you do have sort of like complementing traits, then that can really, really help.
Nathan CornwellYeah. And without trying to turn this into some kind of marriage counselling, I think, I think it hopefully goes without saying, if you're struggling a bit in relationship, taking that relationship on the road, oh yeah, ain't gonna, ain't gonna help. We've seen it. It doesn't end well.
Al ElliottMultiple times. It's like, you know, we know when people say, oh, you know, we had a baby to save our relationship. And it never works. Well, they moved to Spain to save the relationship. That will not work. I promise you. It doesn't matter if it's Spain, whether it's China. China. Anyway, we're gonna finish up now on what Nathan calls his FLAIR model, F-L-A-I-R. Now, obviously he's had his own experience of being an expat multiple times, but he's also seen a lot of other people give it a go, and he has discovered there are 4 main phases that most people go through.
Nathan CornwellI think there's a preparation phase, that's number one, and that's again where your organisation is selecting appropriately for the individual and making sure that they're kind of already prepped for success. There's other aspects, not just in terms of these red flags we mentioned, but things like cultural competence. Are they people that have that ability to move abroad and adjust and appreciate other cultures? Because when you're working abroad, you're also going to be working with a lot of international teams and trying to work cross-culturally, if you like, with different types of behaviors. So kind of understanding that preparation phase is really key and understanding exactly how to sort of select and make sure that that individual is sort of fit for the purpose. The next phase is kind of the onboarding phase. So once that individual's been selected, there's an onboarding aspect to it. And this can actually start at home when they're in their home country, because the worst thing to do is get somebody hired to move abroad and then just kind of leave them to their own devices. I get from an organization point of view, they're kind of not ready for that person until they're actually in the country and the visa's getting processed. But for that individual, they're busy kind of saying goodbye to people and kind of packing up and And getting ready. So their process has already started, and it's kind of an anxious time for an individual who's about to become an expat because they're still kind of worried about the unknown, if you like. And as much support that can be given to that individual as possible will really help them to succeed. There's an aspect called— it's around that reciprocity where, you know, kind of helping that individual. Yeah. An organization helping that individual can reciprocate that by wanting to be more engaged in the business when they do arrive and come to work. So I think kind of feeding into this as early as possible is going to be really important. There's also aspects of training that can help. So obviously you've got the things around cross-cultural training that can help them prepare and sort of getting them understanding what the Do's and don'ts are. But I think on a higher level, it's about trying to get them up to speed as quickly as possible. What are the things that they can look to do in the business, in their role, to really help them get up to speed and performing, which is that next phase. It's that performance phase. So once they've acquired knowledge of the country itself, of their role, of the people they're working with, what are the things that they can do to start performing?
Nathan CornwellYeah.
Nathan CornwellSo I think, you know, aspects around understanding their team, understanding how to work with leaders, understanding how the structure of the organisation works, because sometimes that changes when you move abroad. It can be quite sort of flat lines in your home country, and then when you're moving to another country, it could be quite hierarchical, and understanding how to operate in those types of organisations is really important. So getting them—
Nathan CornwellYeah.
Nathan Cornwellto perform as optimally as possible is the next phase. I think the last phase is one that gets overlooked a lot, and this is actually the repatriation phase. So once that individual is done working in that country, they might either self-repatriate, go into another organization, or they might come back into your organization. And I think the important factor is that we support either, either or. We need to support both routes because For those that self-patriate, they're going to be carrying your reputation, your brands, and they're the ones that might be recommending you for future employees that could come into your business. So you need to make sure that you support them all the way back to the home country, because at the end of the day, you might rely on them at some point to actually give you a recommendation for future employees. The ones that repatriate back into your organization, of course, They'll have their own challenges coming back into the organization potentially they already worked in, where maybe there's new employees, maybe these employees don't understand exactly what that individual's been doing. And I think one of the biggest things that, or biggest reasons for sending someone abroad is to bring back some of these skills and knowledge that they've acquired when they've been abroad. Put together my own little mnemonic to kind of categorize some of these. So when I talk about my own consultancy work and how to support expats and how to help them to thrive as quickly as possible. I talk about this FLAIR mnemonic, which kind of, you know, if you like, it's if you want to be an expat with flair, you have to overcome some of these challenges. So if you bear with me while I sort of run through a couple of them, but the F stands for the financial aspects. So again, it's kind of avoiding the mistake I made when I went to China and not not bringing enough money, for example. But I guess for other individuals, you know, it's about understanding how much are the startup costs, how much support you'll get financially when you're moving across, what are the tax obligations. You know, there's lots of different considerations there. The L is the logistical aspects. So that could be moving across, you know, what sort of support are you getting with the housing or moving boxes, moving furniture? Again, things about finding your children education, finding your wife or husband somewhere to work as well, something to do. I know that kind of combines with that logistical aspect. The A is about the acquisition phase. It's kind of that understanding the culture, learning as much as possible about the organisation, learning how to integrate as quickly as possible. And that can be a really overwhelming process, especially Depending on what culture you've gone to. The Hofstede theory of cultural dimensions looks at how different cultures relate to others. And I guess the further you move in terms of these continuums, the more difficult it's going to be to perhaps adapt. So that's something that can perhaps be an indicator of how easy or how difficult it is going to be to sort of acquire and integrate into the new culture. The I piece is this interpersonal sort of understanding of yourself and the challenges that you might face. So there's that emotional aspect. Again, we looked at loneliness, we looked at the anxiety of actually moving abroad, the unknown when you get there, and being able to sort of be resilient and sort of control some of these challenges. And then lastly, it's about the R aspects, which are kind of combined relationships and role into 2. So relationships are, of course, making good relationships with your colleagues, with your boss, with the organisation, but also maintaining those relationships you've got at home. Because of course, whilst you're away, you're sometimes out of sight, out of mind. So you need to make sure that you're checking in with your family and with your friends, letting them know you're still around and that you're going to come back at some point. So don't forget about me, if you like. And then the role itself, you know, that's really important. I think Getting clarity about the role you're about to do in the organisation is important. Trying to understand what their expectations of you are, what the KPIs are, because sometimes that's unclear. I think sometimes these expat roles, they kind of sell you the dream, and then when you arrive, it can be a little bit different to what you expected. So you have to kind of set out the table early and try to understand exactly what they're expecting of you and what you bring to the table and make sure that job description is kind of align with what you were thinking in the first place. So, these are kind of the 5 challenges. If you overcome them, you can be an expat with flair. That's kind of how I try to phrase it in my consultancy work.
Al ElliottSo, Leanne, the flair model, remind us what they stood for again.
Nathan CornwellYeah, it's a nice little model, isn't it? So, F is for financial. So, in other words, have you thought through the money that you'll need? Don't be like Nathan, who had to spend rent money on getting his finger stitched up.
Al ElliottOof.
Nathan CornwellUm, L is for logistics. Have you thought through what you'll need to take, where you'll need to live, who you'll be able to call for help if you need it? A is for the acquisition or adaptation period. So, this is basically how you adapt to your new life. And from personal experience and seeing others, it has to be at least 12 months.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Nathan CornwellIf it's not, you didn't try hard enough. I is for interpersonal. How are you personally coping? Is your confidence growing? How's your mental health? And R is for relationships. Are you making friends? Are you relying on your spouse a little too much? I've definitely been guilty of that from time to time. I know that Al and I went through all these phases, and yeah, we did struggle with most of them, but we can promise you that if you stick with it and don't take the setbacks too seriously or personally, then you'll have an amazing, amazing experience.
Al ElliottYeah, just a real quick story for you about, um, This sounds sad, but it's not. We can laugh about it now because it happened about 7 years ago. We took a, uh, an elderly Rottweiler who was the softest dog you've ever met from the UK to Spain. And then we, when we got there, this is the preparation thing. When we got there, we discovered that because he's a Rottweiler, you need to date, you need a license for a dangerous dog because he was classed a dangerous dog breed. So it took us so long to get this license. In the end, I had to go and get a psychiatric evaluation where the doctor said it'll be €100. And he said, do you speak Spanish? I said, no.
Nathan CornwellNo.
Al ElliottHe said, well, all of the, all the questions are in Spanish. He said, well, it'll be €150 in that case. And I went, why? And he went, stamp, gave me the stamp, and off I went anyway. So we did all of the paperwork for it. By the time the license had come through, the dog had died. And it genuinely took about, probably about 14 months to get this dangerous dog license. So, but it's stuff like that. You just kind of have to roll with it and you just have to go, well, it's bureaucracy. It's a new country. It's just It's just what happens. And you will find that pretty much wherever you go, particularly if you come from somewhere like America, Australia, US, Canada, where you tend to do a lot of things online. Oh no. When you go to Europe, for example, if you wanna go and pay a bill, you queue up at the post office every month and you, and all that time you're stood in the queue, you're thinking, there's surely a better way of doing it. By the way, if you're in Spain, we're about to say this in Spain. No. If you're in Spain in the queue, they take their shoes off, put them in the queue, and then go and have a cup of tea.
Nathan CornwellYeah. Oh, that was quite casual. That was quite civilised though, I thought.
Al ElliottYeah, just going back to Nathan. I'm sorry, Nathan, we've, uh, we went off on one there. So Nathan offers coaching and consultancy to both businesses and individuals. So let's finish up by hearing how this can actually help.
Nathan CornwellI think one of the advantages of kind of an external consultant like myself, uh, being there to support, uh, through coaching or just through kind of general consultancy services is they're not attached to the business, so they can have an external view of, of the processes you're going through. I think sometimes you can go to your HR. They can be really helpful in a lot of situations, but of course, HR are part of the business, so they might be part of the challenges that you're facing when you're integrating. So having someone that's external, that's also been through kind of these challenges that you're currently facing and wanting you to be supported and thrive, can really help just have that extra support system that you might need. That's Someone who can be objective in certain situations, perhaps think with you about different strategies that can help when you're encountering, you know, a new team, for example, or a boss that you're trying to bond with, but maybe it's not quite working out. Because trying to overcome these challenges is more prominent, I guess, when you're in a new country, because it's not easy just to fly back home. You have to try to do your best to be resilient, to overcome some of these challenges. So I think an external consultant Someone who can be there as a coach can be really helpful at helping you succeed in, in the workplace once you get out there.
Nathan CornwellYou can find Nathan at nathancornwellconsulting.com and on LinkedIn. All the links, as always, are in the show notes.
Al ElliottAnd as I suggested before, if you have got this far and you want to ask Nathan a question, then you can for absolutely free. We're bringing Nathan back for a live workshop in a few weeks' time. If you want a totally free ticket, then head over to truthliesandwork.com/workshop. truthliesandwork.com/workshop. That's truth, lies, and— that's A-N-D, not ampersand, because you'll know that doesn't work in domains. truthliesandwork.com/workshop and pop your email address in, and we'll let you know when the dates have been finalized.
Nathan CornwellAnd if you are sat there thinking, ah, Leanne, why don't you do a podcast about travel and expatriate if you've been doing it for so long? Fun fact, we do. We have another podcast called A Side of His Life. It's a bit neglected at the moment, not gonna lie, um, but there's more than 100 20, 30 episodes on there, um, of us talking about all things living and working abroad. We have guests on that too, some experts in visa, in taxes, in all the fun. Um, skip over the Podmas, that was a mistake.
Al ElliottPodmas was 25 days, like an advent calendar of episodes, and by day 20, we were both so sick of it.
Nathan CornwellThe second one wasn't so bad. I think it was the first one when we was in COVID and we couldn't get back to the UK. We had to cancel all our Christmas plans, and we were both a bit grumpy about it. So we basically just used to drink Christmas cocktails and record a podcast, which in hindsight—
Al ElliottDoes not make quality content. Anyway, Le, what else we got to say before we go?
Nathan CornwellWhat else have I got to say? Well, we will be back for our final episode of July.
Nathan CornwellHooray!
Nathan CornwellWhich of course will be another amazing interview, um, talking with experts and remote workers. I can't for you to meet Lee Rubin, the woman behind the amazing growth at Confetti, a company that specialises in building a great workplace culture through online and virtual events.
Al ElliottLee's company powers events for the likes of— sit down, are you ready for this— Amazon, Netflix, LinkedIn, Shopify, and many, many more household names. So if you haven't subscribed, then now will be a very good time to do it.
Nathan CornwellYes, and after Lee's interview, do we not have another one after that? No?
Al ElliottI think we've got a bonus one that I was going to keep quiet, but you spoiled the surprise.
Nathan CornwellOh, sorry.
Al ElliottThat's okay. Anyway, so we— yes, we do have another one on in the— I think it's the 2nd of August, but, um, that's a surprise for everyone.
Nathan CornwellWhat I can tell you about it is it is sweet. What else is it? I was gonna make a pun about Chelsea, but I might give it away.
Al ElliottSo for the one person who gets that, Then well done. But otherwise, we will— otherwise, we'll see you on Tuesday for the episode with Lee Rubin from Confetti. If you want to check out beforehand, go to withconfetti.com. Um, cool website, and there's lots of cool stuff on there. If you haven't subscribed, you know what to do. Anything else to add, my love?
Nathan CornwellNo.
Al ElliottLet's go and get some lunch. Bye-bye. Ask Nathan about his time in China and why he chose to specialise in psychology.
Nathan CornwellChina.
Al ElliottChina.
Nathan CornwellWe spend too much time together.
Al ElliottWelcome back. Let's rejoin the interview where Leanne Welcome.
Nathan CornwellThat's me.
Al ElliottLet's rejoin the interview. Come on. Too excited. I'll dial it down a bit.
Nathan CornwellYeah, I'll dial it down.
Al ElliottLeah, it's been a couple— Leah, Leah, it's been a couple—
Nathan CornwellWhat?
Nathan CornwellWelcome back. I'd listen to a sleep story from you.
Al ElliottYou probably do every time I tell you a story.
Nathan CornwellShh, adaptation.
Al ElliottNice.
Nathan CornwellI struggle with words like that, don't I? Adaptation. I think it's a 4-syllable.
Nathan CornwellSounds wrong now.
Nathan CornwellYou know, when you say a word over and over again, it doesn't—
Al ElliottMilk, milk, milk.
Nathan CornwellAdaptation. Anyway, shh, I'm recording a podcast.
Al ElliottMummy's working.