Episode 158 · 31 December 2024 · 1:00:25
Professor John Amaechi OBE Unfiltered Full Interview - Special New Year’s Eve Episode
Professor John Amaechi OBE Unfiltered Full Interview - Special New Year’s Eve Episode
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What leadership actually is
Leadership vs. management — the real distinction
Grading leadership in 2024
The biggest misconceptions about good leadership
Can introverts be effective leaders? (And why personality tests are 'mostly bollocks')
Why Donald Trump is so attractive to so many people
The marzipan layer — why mediocrity is the enemy
The Promises of Giants — Leanne's favorite book
The state of psychology — and why the market is being flooded
Understanding young John Amaechi
Is empathy the key to leadership?
Quickfire: Whistling Vivaldi, peanut butter, and Star Wars
Show notes
Professor John Amaechi OBE Unfiltered — Special New Year's Eve Episode
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) are taking a break from the usual news roundup to bring you the full, never-before-heard interview with one of their most exciting guests to date: Professor John Amaechi OBE.
The first Brit to play in the NBA, a Professor of Leadership at the University of Exeter Business School, founder of APS Intelligence, and non-executive director for a FTSE 250 company, John joins Leanne for an extended, unedited conversation about leadership vs. management, why mediocrity is the real enemy in workplace diversity, and the power of self-awareness. Plus, his very strong opinions on Star Wars and peanut butter — yes, they went there.
🔥 Key Topics
1. Leadership vs. Management — and why the distinction matters John breaks down what separates true leadership from mere management, and why conflating the two creates leaders who make people feel like "widgets of productivity" — never a successful long-term strategy.
2. Diversity, inclusion, and the real enemy: mediocrity Inclusive leadership isn't just a nice-to-have — it impacts business success. John explains why the "marzipan layer" of people who simply choose to be mediocre is the true obstacle to progress.
3. The importance of self-awareness "If we could mandate self-awareness, many of the problems would dissipate or be more easily managed." John shares why great leadership begins with understanding yourself — and why direct and honest doesn't always land the way you think it does.
4. The role of leadership in society Leaders must be responsible for shaping culture both within their organizations and in the wider community. John doesn't hold back on the "leadership void" and the abdication of responsibility that comes with power.
5. Star Wars & Peanut Butter The only acceptable way to eat peanut butter (smooth, obviously) and the correct Star Wars watching order — spoiler: always start with A New Hope.
📖 More From Professor John Amaechi OBE
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/amaechi
- Book, The Promises of Giants: amazon.com/Promises-Giants-John-Amaechi/dp/1529345871
- APS Intelligence LTD: apsintel.com
💬 Why You Should Listen
Whether you're a business leader, an aspiring entrepreneur, or just someone looking for a fresh perspective on leadership, John's insights are invaluable. This episode dives into the real, human side of leadership — vulnerability, self-awareness, and why leading with authenticity can be the key to success.
Grab a coffee, relax, and get ready to be inspired by one of the most influential thinkers in leadership today.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYes, we are, but not today, because normally I'd be welcoming—
Leanne ElliottNot today?
Al ElliottNo, not today. Normally I'd be welcoming you to a Tuesday episode that we call This Week in Work, with, as you know, it's got the surgery, the news roundup, hot takes, etc., etc. Today is diff— well, it's not different because we did it again last Tuesday, but it's the same as last Tuesday but different to most normal Tuesday because it's New Year's Eve.
Leanne ElliottHappy New Year! Happy— well, you can't say that yet because it's It's not New Year's, it's New Year's Eve. Happy New Year's Eve!
Al ElliottOr if you're in Scotland, Hogmanay. Um, or if you are in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Nova Godina. Um, I think, I think I've got that right. Please, uh, I look forward to your letters from Bosnia and Herzegovina and all of the Balkan region. By the way, that's where we live, just in case you thought I just randomly picked some kind of weird European country out of thin air. Now let's be honest, nobody's going to want to talk about work on New Year's Eve. It's a day for family and perhaps the odd glass of wine, or if you're in Spain, 12 Grapes. You eat 12 grapes before midnight on all the strokes, which is apparently difficult and also leads to a lot of hospitalization around that time of year. So we're not going to talk about work. We're going to publish a full unedited interview with one of the biggest guests we've had on the show today. Leah, I'm guessing you're going to want to take it from here.
Leanne ElliottYes, I do, because if you're spending New Year's Eve just cozy in on your own— delicious, that's how I like to spend my New Year's, under a blanket with a book or a good podcast— and if that is the case, this is going to be a good one for you. Alternatively, if it's New Year's Day and you're walking the dog and you want a nice little podcast to listen to, this is also a really good one. Um, so yeah, it's, it's gonna take a minute with this intro, um, but stick with me because it, as I said, it's totally worth it. Today we are publishing the never-before-heard full interview with Professor John Amaechi OBE, and I'll be honest, I'm still a bit starstruck. John's one of those rare people that makes you feel both incredibly inspired and slightly inadequate at the same time, but in the best possible way, um, and with good reason. He's, you know, got all the credentials. He's a professor of leadership at Exeter Business School, founder of APS Intelligence, non-exec director for a FTSE 250 company, and the author of the Sunday Times bestseller The Promises of Giants. And as if that wasn't enough, he was the first Brit to play in the NBA, which is pretty incredible. John's mother once told him the most unlikely of people in the most improbable of circumstances can become extraordinary, and well, he went and proved her right. Now I should warn John's got absolutely no time for people who think their opinions trump actual evidence. Spoiler alert, they don't. He's properly passionate about Star Wars, and wait until you hear his thoughts on peanut butter. Trust me, it's a whole thing, and it's somewhat controversial. I know people say you should never meet your heroes, but after spending an hour with John, I think that's a load of rubbish. This conversation was not only the highlight of my year, it was honestly a career highlight for me, and I reckon you're about to see why. So grab a coffee, get comfortable, let's dive into this one.
Al ElliottOh, and very quickly, if you like this and you haven't subscribed to the podcast yet, give yourself a bit of a late Christmas present and press that subscribe button. Okay, the floor is yours, Professor John Amaechi OBE.
Leanne ElliottGo! John Amaechi, welcome to the podcast. Beyond excited to have you here. On the off chance that somebody has never come across you and your work before, can you start by introducing yourself, telling our listeners who you are, what you do, and what you're famous I am a psychologist, a nerd, a geek.
Al ElliottThose 2 things are not the same. I am a sci-fi fan and still a child at heart when it comes to that type of thing. My day job is, is trying to make workplaces better for people to thrive in, trying to convince people and create the systems so that people can understand that you can have a high-performing workplace, keep it in perspective, and still have people that thrive. We're nerds, all of my team. We're just nerds. We like the idea that science evidence rather than anecdote and kind of give it a go can really make people's lives better. Even if you have, you know, I'm really lucky. I have a job that's amazing and that's interesting every day.
Leanne ElliottBut even if your job isn't that, I think organizations can make people's lives I want to talk about leadership, um, because your book is one of my absolute favorites and my go-to. If I got a pound for every time I recommended that book, John, I'd be doing all right. I want to start though at the beginning, and I think we can be, we can be in danger of skipping over some of the basic steps. Leadership, what is it? Do we have a definition? Can we define it?
Al ElliottI tend to think that leadership is is a couple of things. It's about having the perspective, qualities, and will to create an environment where lots of people can operate effectively together and in service of a common goal. But it's also the ability to operate in a way that makes other people want to follow you. Because so much of the time in leadership, what we really think about is what are the traits? Give me 5 traits that are good leaders. And what we often forget is that there's this thing called social identity theory. This is the nerd part, right? But this is the idea that leadership isn't just about, I'm driven, I'm courageous, I'm intellectual, I'm whatever else, ambitious. But it's also about the fact that I'm, as a leader, are you the kind of person who makes people through your genuine and authentic activity want to follow you, who makes it easy to follow you. It makes it easy for you to deliver on your brilliance. Most of us have been in rooms where we've had something to offer, but just the nature of the leader in the room, or more probably the manager in the room, has made it so we just didn't want to offer it or didn't feel safe to offer it, or you know what I mean? So it's that combination of, yes, some qualities that are important to create space that people can thrive, but also the qualities that acknowledge the individual contributions, opportunity for brilliance of others.
Leanne ElliottYou mentioned that you said, you know, the leader in the room or probably the manager. What is the distinction for you? Is it about proximity? Is it about behavior? What's the difference?
Al ElliottI think it's a bit of a— it's probably an unfair and a bit of an artificial Distinction. But I suppose what I mean is you can technically manage resources. Even saying that makes me feel a bit icky in the mouth. I'm sorry. But you know what I mean? You can be one of those people who has a transactional relationship with work and sees people as points in a Gantt chart, and you can effectively project manage. But that to me is a form of pure management. And it's not that it's unimportant, but absent leadership, it's so sterile.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd threatens to make people feel like widgets of productivity, which is never a successful long-term strategy. So I suppose that's the difference, right? We leaders need management skills. I'm not the CEO of my organization, in part because my boss, who's the CEO, is a better manager than I am. But I have a strong leadership role to play in my organization. And so we augment each other in that way. He also has leadership credentials too. But I do recognize that sometimes you can be technically able to manage individuals within a project and still not be seen in any way as a leader.
Leanne ElliottMoving back to leadership, I mean, if you were a teacher, how would you grade our efforts in leadership in 2023, moving into 2024? Are we grade A students?
Al ElliottWell, it's such an interesting question. I've never had it. It was brilliant. There's a group of people who we have to give the must try harder So their effort is actually absent. It isn't, they acknowledge perhaps that they don't have skills or they don't even acknowledge that it's important, but they've got to try harder. There's a burgeoning group of people, an increasingly large group of people who are in the kind of, I don't even like to say his name, but the Elon Musk school of things where his philosophy is really, I'm brilliant. You should want to be close to me.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd then I'm like the sun as well as being brilliant. So you should expect to be burnt to a crisp in my presence. And then he discards you. And that's like a natural cycle for him. To me, not particularly sustainable or humane. But there are a burgeoning number of people who, you know, the idea that if you burn out, it's because you don't have resilience. It's because you're not tough enough. It's because it's nothing to do with how they're operating, which is often incredibly toxic.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThere's this group of leaders who really want to be the very best leaders, and they haven't quite figured out some of the skills are required because change is a science. I keep, this is my mantra at the moment, change is a science. And so creating a psychologically safe space isn't about making nice warm noises or the right kind of face. It's a set of skills, creating trust. These things are enabled by very specific behaviors. And they don't have those skills. I think it's that combination of things. So I probably— there's a distribution in our class is what I'd say. And very few people are getting an A.
Leanne ElliottWhat are the biggest misconceptions about what makes a good leader or somebody who's good at leadership?
Al ElliottThe biggest misconception is really drawn from the way that we create leaders because we don't really distinguish in workplaces or organizational systems between a manager and a leader. You are essentially just assumed. So that's probably the biggest mistake. We assume that if you are capable of managing a project and people technically, you are probably going to be a decent leader because that's how we progress people. We assume that everybody wants to be a leader when really what most people want is the ability to progress and make more money. And the fact you have to manage human beings comes as a kind of I don't know if it's not even a side benefit, but it's just like, I've got to have these peas with this amazing meal, but I've got to eat the peas with it. It's just there it is, and I'll deal with it, but it's not what I really want. So we forget the fact that the same things that make us brilliant technically, the ability to absorb knowledge, to keep it up to date because things change and the science change and we know new things year on year, the ability to have skills and tools that will enable us to work with different kinds of individuals and lead them effectively. is separate from the idea that we're just very, very clever. Most people are familiar with people like Brian Cox, the physicist with the amazing lilting voice that makes you want to listen to him forever. And Neil deGrasse Tyson in America is kind of an equivalent of that kind of amazing communicator. But what makes both of them excellent teachers is not just that they really know their stuff, it's that they can convey this to other people in a way that is compelling, that element of leadership that is about vision building. It's so compelling that I, a person who failed their physics A-level, want to watch Brian Cox and Neil deGrasse Tyson both, despite the fact it's a subject I'm not interested in. There's a really good example of that. I want to follow them, even though the thing that they talk about is not traditionally something I even care about. But when they talk about it, I find it utterly compelling.
Leanne ElliottCan introverts be effective leaders?
Al ElliottPersonality tests are, they're mostly bollocks. I don't know what kind of language you do on your podcast, but they're just mostly, they're mostly bollocks, right? And they do us a great disservice. They are, most of the people who build these personality inventories will tell you that they've all been updated over the years. And so it's different now, but essentially they come from a school of thought that thought that personality was immutable. You know, you did your personality test and that's who you are. You know, and they come from a school that says that you can boil down complexity of human beings into very, very tight packages. You know, when you think about it, some of the most popular personality profiles like DISC, that DISC was invented by the man who wrote the Wonder Woman comics.
Leanne ElliottOh, really?
Al ElliottI don't know if people know this, but the man who wrote the Wonder Woman comics is the person who invented the disc. Now, I love comics. You can see in my background, I love that type of fantasy, but I can separate that from anything that should be able to categorize human beings. How on earth did we ever fall for the idea that the complexity and richness of a human being could be captured in a primary color? How did we fall for that? How did we end up with proper, supposedly smart workplaces building their teams on the basis of, well, I need 2 reds, a green, and a blue? How did that happen? How did we get to a place where people thought, oh no, no, that woman's far too reflective and thoughtful to be a leader? And look where it leads us. It leads us to a place where bombast, utter certainty in the face of evidence that should change your mind, a kind of invulnerability to the thoughts and feelings of other people. It leads us in the direction of monsters. And that's where we are, led by monsters, certainly in a political sense. And I just think that we need to recognize all of you introverts out there. I'm an introvert. And My kind of introversion may not represent their kind of introversion. And that's the thing that many people don't understand. It's not just a monoculture. But for me, introversion translates into something akin to, I find human beings really energy expensive. Being in the presence of other people. I'm supposed to go to a concert tonight to see Emily Sandé. It's just like this little jazz club and I really love her.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBut I may not go because I've had a lot of people in my week. And it just feels, even though I love this thing, it just feels like it's just a bit too much to be with all of those people because it's just very energy expensive. But when it comes to work, it doesn't mean that we can't communicate effectively or even be in conflict if we disagree on things. It doesn't mean that I can't make decisions. It simply means that How I do that will look a little different than the often bloke who just says, no, not that, this, I've always done it this way. Or the person who says, oh, after work, let's all go out and let's all engage. It's just a little bit different. But yes, introverts, you can lead. Extroverts, you can lead. All the various myriad of options in between can lead.
Leanne ElliottAnd none of you are defined by what some incredibly obtuse test One of the first episodes we did on the podcast was, um, Myers-Briggs Brilliant or Bullshit. And I took my co-host Al through the Myers-Briggs, and then his results— I shared the results of, um, not his actual results, but the Gemini horoscope, which is his profile. And he's like, oh my God, that's exactly like me. Yeah, so I'm with you on it.
Al ElliottThat, that is, that is such a brilliant thing to do. I don't think my, my team would forgive me if I ever did it, but they know my opinions on this. But That's such a, that's such a good point. Because what you did, what's it called? There's a— the Barnum effect is what you've just demonstrated. The Barnum effect, this idea that saying things that sound loosely applicable to almost any scenario, that's exactly what they've become. My challenge to it is simply that if you look at personality inventories, isn't it interesting how the good in the good profiles, and we all know, you know, those are the assertive ones, those are the loud ones, those are the decisive ones. They're the ones that get you progressed. And isn't it interesting how, you know, something the order of 70% of those seem to apply to men? It's really interesting. You know, we wonder why we don't have progression there when certain of these profiles seem to apply directly to people from the Northern Hemisphere, and men from the Northern Hemisphere predominantly, and middle-class men who've had a certain type of education. So all of this personality testing is not just dangerous because it doesn't really help you form teams. It's dangerous because it's antithetical to bringing the full and mature talents of all your team to the fore.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast.
Leanne ElliottIt's brought to you—
Al Elliottwe need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about How to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back. Yeah, come back.
Al ElliottDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back. I'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in.
Leanne ElliottYou said a phrase before, something like, um, you know, what, what we're doing is leading us towards monsters. We are heading into an interesting year in terms of, of global politics. I mean, what are your thoughts on the leadership contenders? Why is Donald Trump so engaging and influential to many, many people? Will Rishi Sunak finally win the heart of, of the nation? What are your predictions, John?
Al ElliottThe answer to the second one is no. The answer to the first one, why is Donald Trump so attractive to so many people? Never underestimate the ability for people to suspend their morality for a quick fix. I'm a gay person. I have no self-interest in that thing that some horrible straight men do where they defend women, but it's really just about them being more attractive to women. But I don't have any skin in that game whatsoever. But the moment Donald Trump said he would grab a woman by her genitalia, we were done. He could have offered me no percent tax. He could have made it so, Leanne, you had to pay my tax for me, and I wouldn't have voted for him. He could have offered me so many things that I think are critical. He could have offered me, um, universal healthcare in America. He could have offered me a new education standard and food for children, and I wouldn't have voted for him. Because sometimes people have an individual flaw that is so indicative of poison that you must watch it. You must fight it wherever it exists. You know it will lead to the exploitation of human beings. And that any short-term fix you get in some agenda that you have will wreak havoc on other more vulnerable human beings. So, but you can't underestimate the fact that there are evangelical Christians who are his biggest base in America, who ignore the fact that he has cheated on every person who has become his wife with the next person to become his wife. Who have ignored the fact that he would sexually assault women and boast about it, make fun of disabled people and boast about it. And these people would purport to be Christian, but what they're doing is, is just focusing on that one thing they want, the overturning of Roe v. Wade or something else. That's one reason why people follow this man. The other reason is that when, when systems are under pressure, whether it's a society or community, we stop being interested in nuance and complexity in our leaders and start being interested in Things that seem certain. Stop the boats. Build that wall. We want the things that are certain and aligned and send out flares of messages that say that this person is aligned with a fundamental sense of who we are. So one of the frightening things about people like Donald Trump, things like a number of our former and current prime ministers, is actually that it's an indication of what people truly believe. There's many people who think, and I hope you haven't had to deal with any on your show, but there's many people who think that, you know, this whole thing about gender equity has gone a bit far, hasn't it? I mean, look, there you are. You've got your own podcast now. What more do you want? There's many people, look, there's a CEO over there, or there's something, you know, there's like 3 or 4 directors, and haven't we gone too far? Same thing with Black people. Same thing with disability. Do we really need ramps at every door?
Leanne ElliottYou know, should we really be making reasonable accommodations.
Al ElliottThere are lots of people who actually believe this, but they can feel a lot better about voting because nobody sees them do it when they slip into that ballot. And they can tell everybody they didn't vote, even as Donald Trump will win the presidency, perhaps in a landslide this year. It's terrifying. It's disappointing. There's hope, by the way. There's hope. It's just a little longer term than many people imagine.
Leanne ElliottI hear viewpoints like that. I hear You know, but it's better now for women, right? Or, oh yeah, but you know, it's, you know, being gay now isn't as bad as it was 30 years ago. Or from a more skeptical perspective, who's representing me as the white middle-class straight man? How do you deal with those types of viewpoints and objections to, to trying to drive progress in equality and inclusion, diversity?
Al ElliottI wouldn't be a psychologist worthy of respect If I supported other people's delusions. And it doesn't mean always, and I'm not a clinical psychologist, but certainly confronting people's delusions is not always the right approach. But certainly you shouldn't support people in sliding into a delusion. And so if men, other men, think that the world has suddenly turned against them and that the opportunities for them are twisted now and diminished, I often suggest to people, people say this in workplaces to me all the time, you know, well, what about white men now? Is it really, my chances seem to be curtailed. And I tell them this, I tell them, if your workplace is biased against white men, it is terrible at it. It is not good at it. Because if you look around the structures of your organization, it is clearly not the problem. What I remind people like that is there is an enemy. Inclusion has an enemy. It has a target. It's just not who you think it is. Many people, you've probably talked to them, who say that inclusion is out to get men's jobs. It's out to get white people's jobs. It's out to get middle-class people's jobs and to force a world where it is disabled Black lesbians who are wheelchair users who are in charge of everything, that kind of narrative. And it isn't that. It's simply the target that inclusion has so clearly in its sights is mediocrity. Oh, yes. If you're a mediocre man, woman, gay person, straight, transgender, wheelchair user, neuroatypical, it doesn't matter what kind of mediocre you are. And I don't mean people who are working hard and have reached a level and they perhaps won't have the potential to reach another level.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI'm talking about people who simply choose to be mediocre. We call them in workplaces, what, the marzipan layer, the permafrost, these people who, you notice them right before appraisal and then they disappear back into the trees. It's coming for them because inclusion is trying to broaden the base of people who might join your organization and broaden it not in terms of Anybody can join, but the criteria of excellence remain the same. It's simply we're discarding some of the barriers. We're saying, so what if you're a carer and you need to come in at 9:30 because you've got kids to drop off, or same thing conversely at night, just do your hours and do them brilliantly. All of a sudden, the pool of brilliant people who really want to contribute expands. And so if you're a man who's really comfortably, or a woman, or an anybody who has really comfortably cruised for most of your career. Yeah, inclusion's a threat to you because somebody else who really wants to drive and do well wants your role. And any organization worth its salt wants that person in your role.
Leanne ElliottI want to ask you about your book, The Promises of Giants. It's one of my favorites. I mean, it's— I love how it's set out. And I know you must hear this all the time, how it's set out, how personal it is, how you mix the, the lessons with the personal anecdotes and experiences in your life. And the book, that's the premise. If someone hasn't heard of it, it shares with readers what they can do to, first of all, to fill the, the leadership void, and then leads on to the 14 promises. But let's start with the void. What is the leadership void that you're seeing, and what impact is that having on, on organizations and on individuals?
Al ElliottYeah, it's the abdication of the responsibilities of power, even as people embrace the benefits of it. So again, we talked about people like Donald Trump and Rishi Sunak and others, right? Boris Johnson. These people embrace the power in a very— what's called in the literature, it would be called something like the personalized power motivation. I like power because what I can do with it for me.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd they abandon or abdicate the responsibility for the kind of socialized power dynamic, which doesn't mean you can't have nice stuff. It doesn't mean you can't take your increased wage for your role as a leader and go on holiday to Aruba or whatever. It simply means that with that responsibility comes the idea that you have people that you must see as individuals, as human beings. You'll have to recognize that their wellbeing is predominantly in your hands. Gallup in 2015, everybody knows this survey, right? So it's not something special, but 2015 Gallup did that survey where they talked about managers, direct line managers are 70% of the variance in the engagement of their people. There are so few environments where we have that kind of data where we can say, even in schools, it's not that clear that teachers have that same— teachers obviously have a massive impact. But in workplaces, we know for a fact that the people who work for you, those 1, 2, 15 people who work for you directly, you are the primary source of their engagement or disengagement. You are the primary source of their sense of self, whether they think they're capable, competent, have potential, belong. It's you. And that's the gap. That's the void. People who have embraced the increased salary, or often not very increased salary because we don't really respect leaders. That they embrace that side of it. But the bit that's about human beings is like, ugh, all right then. Oh, you're not feeling good today. All right then. Talk to me while I look at my phone or while I'm also kind of doing something else over here.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat piece there, that's the leadership void. And it's not a nice to have because nobody in my team would tell you that I am nice. I am robust, demanding. I want work to be done at a quality that makes it almost perfect. I want people to be vigilant and diligent. And work hard. And then I want them to go home and have a glass of wine and chill out with their family. But demand is not that I'm soft and warm. And it's not that leadership is about being soft and warm. It's about knowing that if someone is anxious and you can ease that anxiety, you've created somebody who can perform better for you and will be grateful for your intervention. If someone is scared, worried about making a mistake, and you can ease their worry, help them to understand how to not make that mistake, or at least to ameliorate it, the risk risk of it, they will be grateful and want to work with you. It's about creating legions who stand around you, not a line of people who begrudgingly tread behind.
Leanne ElliottYou set out 14 promises in your book that will help leaders and encourage leaders to fill this void, and you ask leaders to commit to them. I mean, if 14 sounds a lot, if leaders could only commit to one promise, which one should it be?
Al ElliottSo this is the hard one for me because How do you pick just one? Automatically, I would say no. I was actually going to say, I promise to create an environment that people never want to leave. Because I do think that's— but that's more of the summation of it. You know what it is? Because it's a piece of really old science that I love. I promise to reflect your potential. Again, leaders don't realize sometimes their impact. That's why it's called The Promises of Giants, because I'm a giant, clearly, like an actual real-life giant. And so people think the book, The Giant, is in reference to me, but it's not, Leanne. It's in reference to you, Leanne. It's in reference to every person who reads it. You are the giant that I'm referring to. And I promise to reflect people's potential. It's so wonderful because it's the idea that really good science started in 1902 with Charles Cooley. I talk about it in the book. And then I always forget the second researcher, but it's Rosenthal and somebody who did some research in the 1960s where they went into schools and they gave kids tests to determine whether they would thrive or struggle in school. And they told the teachers the results of the test, but they didn't tell the parents. Or carers, and they didn't tell the students themselves. They came back some months later, some year later, and found out that these kids aligned perfectly with the test. The kids who had said would thrive were thriving. The kids who were kind of averaged down to struggle were averaged down to struggle. That's really useful because psychology, having that kind of test, means we can change schools. Unfortunately, the test was made up. They'd randomly assigned the kids to the groups. So how could it be that when you asked the children, they all knew which group they were in? It wasn't because the teachers had abdicated their responsibility to the less well-inclined kids for school. It was simply that all of us, all the time, reflect back what we think of the person opposite us. And some of us, it's not very consequential because our power means that our contempt of a very senior leader who happens to be breezing by is almost unnoticeable to them. But when we're the senior leader, when we're the giant, the reflection we hold up to people is so massive. And so we wonder why sometimes certain people who we always knew would never be any good turn out not to be any good. And it's not just because they lacked some specific skills. It's because we decided that they would never be any good. And succeeding in the face of a leader who is experienced and skilled and whose face betrays in every moment that they think you are terrible is incredibly difficult. And that's why reflecting your potential is perhaps the one that I think is the most substantive if people would just embrace it.
Leanne ElliottIs there a promise that you find the hardest to keep?
Al ElliottHoover the Landing. Hoover the Landing is the epilogue. It's a It's a story in the book that almost, I should say, I think it's important to say that this book is mostly my mother's and not mine. I teach at the University of Exeter Business School and I was in a seminar there. I was teaching a seminar there a few, it must have been, it was last year sometime. No, maybe a bit earlier than that, maybe 2 years ago. when the book first came out and one of the students had read it, they had no choice. And they'd read it. And this young woman, she's a much maligned foreign student. Apparently now we shouldn't have those either. But she had come from China and she said, I need to tell you that you are not the star of your book. I was like, oh, that's a spiky way. That's a spicy way to start this. I was like, all right. I mean, it's complete. I knew it was right, but But she said, your mum is the star of the book. And I was like, that's it. That's exactly right. This book exists because I want everybody to meet my mother. And Hoover the landing was her. It was her way of saying that all of us, we talk about, our rhetoric is often very strong about what we believe. But whenever it's tested with an action that is unpalatable, we don't do it. So, you know, I used to tell my mother as a child that I loved her all the time, but I would often not complete my jobs, my chores that I was given. And Hoover the Landing is the culmination of a day when she walked into our house exhausted, you know, shaking almost because she was so tired. And I'd stayed up to throw my arms around her in a very dramatic way. I like a bit of drama.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd say I loved her. And she didn't really respond to it because she was looking around my shoulders all the time at the house. And then she asked me, you know, did you do your chores? Did you, did you hoover the landing? That was my job for the night. And I said, no, no, but I just, I love you so much and I want to stay up and tell you I love you. And she just pushed me away and looked at me and said, love, if you love me, You do with the landing because it's doing the crap that we don't like, but is important for other people. That is the indicator of our actual, the depth of our actual emotion, not just talking that game. So the thing that is easy for me to do is come onto something like this and talk to you about leadership and all the tenets and what I think is important. And the hardest thing for me, like many people perhaps, is That when we finish talking, I've got to demonstrate it.
Leanne ElliottI agree. Your mum is the star of the book. Your student wasn't wrong, if slightly blunt in her delivery. You share a lot of proverbs in the book as well that really resonated with me. But was there a reason that you use them in your writing or you use them in the book? And do you have a favorite proverb?
Al ElliottThere's a few things that I've said that have become kind of things that people associate with me, and they are mine. But most of the stuff, and I do tend to try and tell people this is not mine, is other people. So I love the idea of that. There's an Igbo proverb that says, when axe meets wood, only the axe forgets. It's a lovely metaphor for power and a reminder for those of us who have more power, more steel perhaps, that when we interact with other people with less steel, Although we may make a loud noise and we walk away unblemished and the other won't. So I love that one. But I was smiling because I love Criminal Minds. Have you seen that TV show, Criminal Minds?
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottI love watching it. It's about the FBI's behavioral analysis unit. I had the opportunity to go in and do— I didn't do anything with them, but just to observe many, many years ago. Just really cool. And they always start and finish their show with a quote. And there is a shocking number of quotes that I quote that is simply the product of having watched Criminal Minds. So people think it's super deep, but actually it's series 3, episode 7, end of the show. That's where it came from. It wasn't super deep.
Leanne ElliottBut I mean, sometimes if it works, it works. I remember, you know, I think I've said a few times, you know, that RuPaul Charles is possibly one of the greatest philosophers of our time. You know, if you can't love yourself, how the hell are you gonna love somebody else? Else. And there's so many other lessons that, that carry over. So yeah, it doesn't always matter where it comes from, you know, if it serves its purpose. And that's the very thing. I mean, you talk a lot in the book about, as you say, you know, describe leaders as, as these giants. You say there are no breaks for giants. Is this asking too much of our leaders, particularly given the, the turmoil of the last few years? Are we putting the the mental health of business owners, of leaders, at risk by setting these types of expectations?
Al ElliottI think there's a duty of care that is very tightly associated with high-performance expectations. We want our people to perform. We want that to happen sustainably. You and I both know that people complain endlessly about churn, about people leaving organizations and the cost of hiring and the cost of induction. So, it's a very practical concern To say to people, I think given the impact of managers we know on individual people in and outside of work, there's really good data on the impact of managers and the experience of people even when they're not at work. People are happier outside of work when their manager in work is better skilled in terms of leadership. That's an amazing thing to consider. So under those circumstances, it's only right. that we demand a set of core skills, right? That's why psychologists have to be registered. Because otherwise, what if I just decide to dabble in someone's brain and I'm not up to skill and I haven't done the work I'm supposed to do? Dentists, they sit on a register because I don't really want somebody diving through my mouth with a drill who hasn't met the standards. And more than that, kept up with the standards year on year, right? Because most of them, certainly psychology and dentistry and medicine, they require continual learning. So all we're asking of leaders who have— imagine, we often forget that we have the careers, lives, hopes, aspirations, not to mention the sense of identity, of self, of potential and and worthiness of real human beings in our hands? How many of those should a person be allowed to have in their hands before they are— we demand that they have some skills to ensure that they do no harm? At the very least, that's the bottom line, right? It's not even a— that's not aspirational. It's just don't hurt these people because work shouldn't have a body count. Work should not have a body count.
Leanne ElliottI want to ask you about psychologists. I was listening to an interview you did on the ABP podcast, um, and it made me laugh out loud. You shared your— in, in a, in a, in an— I'm with you way, John, but I mean, you shared your frustrations around recruiting psychology graduates and you made a call of action to universities and you said, how about producing some psychologists that can talk to a bloody human being? Is it true? Are psychologists terrible communicators?
Al ElliottI think the challenge is that psychology went through a period, which I respect and think in a way is important, but it went through a period where the most important thing for us was to be seen as a proper science, right? Because we're a social science. So naturally we get maligned when compared to physics or even things like engineering. We're not proper. We just talk to people and there's a bit of some kind of weird theory in the background. And so we went through this this period of trying to make sure that real rigor and real science, and with that came a departure from application, from how we practice. I almost said our art, and I'm not sure it's quite that grand, but how we practice our work in situ with real people. I think a departure from the eviscerative nature of having a conversation with a psychologist who is attempting to move you in a different place or help you do introspection and how painful and difficult that can be. And so what I'm looking for is to produce psychologists. Yeah, it's important to me that you understand the rudimentaries of statistics. It is important to me. But increasingly, Because of generative AI and other things. If I want to, I can get a spreadsheet and with my rudimentary and my understanding of statistics is not that of a graduate nowadays, but I can use AI to create the analysis that I'm looking for. But then the thing that I can do is interpret and apply, and I can apply it to a business that has 2% margins. In the built environment, construction or architecture or something like that. And I can apply it to a company with a matrixed organizational structure across 3 or 4 different geographies with 2 different internal languages because I know this breadth of things. And then when it comes to talking to people, I can sit in a room full of people who don't know anything about statistics and I can help them understand what this means, why it's important, and what you should do with it. But that's the purpose of great psychology, right? It's not to do that thing that the shills do, the people like Jordan Peterson. He's a Sith, by the way. He's a Sith. He has all the powers of a Jedi but chooses to use them for evil. And this man, when you listen to him talk, he speaks in a way that is so complicated that you just, you have to, it's like, oh, these words are so big.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd these concepts are so grand that he must be clever because when he communicates with you, it's not about you. It's about him. I need you to know how clever I am. That's what it's all about. And I just think we need to produce psychologists who understand, yes, your technical skill is brilliant, but if you're not interested in these sectors, in these clients, in these real human beings who are struggling, If you can't be in a position where you can show some compassion to somebody who really wants to do it right, but never had a role model and never had anybody tell them, this is how you give feedback. This is how you challenge poor behavior. This is how you manage a meeting. Nobody told them. So, you've got to speak to these people with compassion and yet also hold them to account. So, that's— and it's not that we don't have anybody who does that. There's some brilliant people out there who do it, colleagues of mine, Friends of mine, people like Adam Grant, who's very famous and really brilliant in America and such a great communicator. In Britain, we've got people like Vinay Kandola, who many people don't even know, but he's got a consultancy doing his thing and is really great at it as well. Really human and brilliant and compassionate, all wrapped into one.
Leanne ElliottThe market is being flooded. When I graduated back 2008. People and culture, mental health at work, well-being, leadership wasn't always talked about that openly. And with that, the conversation is happening. The market is being flooded with professionals who are talking about effective leadership, about building inclusive cultures, but not many of them are psychologists. Why is that? And are psychologists, occupational psychologists, under threat?
Al ElliottI don't think we're under threat. Uh, it's such a great thought when you said that. Suddenly I thought of us all in like a herd on the plains worried about Being stalked by the predators of non-psychologists. I, not everything requires a psychologist. Everything I think requires academic rigor. And that doesn't mean elevating my language so it's so clever you don't really understand. But I just mean follows the evidence-based practice approach, doesn't do that kind of, hey, oh, your problem's this, why don't you try that?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat kind of ad hoc cowboy approach. So that kind of part of it, I think, is important. I think you can have that even if you're not a psychologist. I don't think it's reserved to the kind of social sciences to use it, but I do think we should be held to account for making sure that that happens. Why isn't— why— we're not under threat, psychologists, but part of the— maybe it's related to the answer to the previous question that some of the people who are doing this work, are simply far more compelling and human and connected and apparently caring and obviously caring about what they do. I think the danger is, especially in areas like diversity and inclusion, for example, which I'm interested in from a performance prerogative lens as opposed to a warm and fuzzy lens. And most of our work is not diversity inclusion, but I am interested in it being a part of everything just across the layer. But part of the challenge with it is that in that space, there's a lot of people who are incredibly well-meaning, incredibly compelling, but they've got— there's no there there. There's no science behind what they do. And it causes us harm because when they are, you know, these big— and they're often very big organizations, they'll do this initiative and it won't work. And therefore it's like, well, this stuff doesn't work. But it's not that diversity and inclusion initiatives can't work. It's just that that if they've got no pedagogy, they're clearly not going to have an impact. Google, a few years ago, I want to say 8 years ago, maybe a little less than that, it's definitely before the pandemic. They're very transparent with some of their stats. And they spent in the previous 10 years to this 8 years ago, they'd spent something in the order of $100 and something million on unconscious bias You know, from the book that I don't hold much truck with unconscious bias anyway, but $110 or something million they'd spent on it. And you looked at their metrics and they barely shifted. They barely shifted. There was this slight advance for women. But when you looked into the data a little more deeply, you realized that the advancements were mostly in non-technical roles. They were mostly in those other roles where somehow we think women are more appropriate.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottRight? No, not the tech stuff for you, but no, this stuff over here, HR's for you, right? It's not that that's a bad thing to be in HR because I am, but that's the problem because now not all of us have $110 million to spend, but many practitioners would like to take $110 million. And it can mean that ethically they don't really look into whether this thing can really work. And we're interested in, can this be measured? Will it work? And so So we follow the science. Brilliant. There's brilliant people out there doing work. If we follow that science and the pedagogical approach, there's more chance this stuff will work.
Leanne ElliottWhat is it that I need to understand about young John Amaechi to perhaps better understand the man that I'm talking to now?
Al ElliottI've never fit in. I said that in the present tense, which is interesting. I shall talk about that with my therapist. When I was younger, I never fit in anywhere I went. I was always the outlier. And my whole life, I have known that I'm a monster. I am a monster. It's not what I think of me, but in this world, what other people think of you regularly is really an important indicator of how you will be treated.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd so I don't leave my house very much. I'm very, very privileged. People should know this. This is not a sob story. I'm incredibly privileged. I live in a, I live in what I suppose is a penthouse in Covent Garden, right? And in Covent Garden, in my postcode, there are 26 people. Up until a few years ago, my neighbor was Andrew Lloyd Webber. It's that kind of place, right? So not a sob story.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBut I don't leave my house because I hate the way I see myself reflected in the faces of people I meet. It's a wonderful, confusing mix of about 20% of people who've seen something that I do, follow me on LinkedIn or read my book. I once was stood on my terrace here and just peering down into the courtyard and this woman looked at me, she was like, ah, John Amaechi. And she reached into a bag and waved my book at me. And it was one of a really amazing day. I ran down and I I talked to her and signed it. But that's about 20% of the time. I think perhaps a little bit less than that because I'm not quite as famous as I wish I were. And the rest of the time, I terrify people. It's as if I'm the super predator wandering the streets amidst a crowd and everybody operates around me with incredible caution I walked around the corner of the courtyard. I just, it was early in the morning and this was last year sometime, but it happens fairly often, something like this. I walk around the corner and it wasn't like I walked right into this couple, but there was a couple walking towards me and they both were holding coffee cups from the local coffee shop that we have here. And as I walk around the corner, She was talking to her partner, I assume. And then she looked up and saw me and she dropped her cup. And it's like, I'm a monster. People follow me around shops fearing that I will steal something and run away. I get into lifts with people because I'm in a lot of very nice offices of our clients. And so I get into these lifts, especially in Canary Wharf. Sometimes the journey feels like it's 6 minutes. So you're trapped in a steel box for what feels like 6 minutes, even though it's only a minute, probably. And I get into these places and very often, and without even them knowing it, a woman will take her handbag from the shoulder closest to me and put it on the one furthest away. Men will often, because they're wearing suits, I don't wear suits, will put their hand on their breast pocket where their wallet is. And after a while, even though I know that I'm a nerd who likes Greggs steak slices, Yorkshire Gold, and Star Wars, there's no way that I can't also understand that that image does not translate to the world around me. And what they see is a monster. And if you've been a monster your whole life, from the age of 6, as I towered over my primary school, People, your empathy for others who are othered, your empathy for people who are also seen as defective or broken or somehow not one of us is peak.
Leanne ElliottI mean, in terms of that, when it comes to leadership, is empathy the key? Or maybe better asking what, you know, if you could just wave a magic wand and just eradicate something in leaders, whether it's behavior, a trait, an approach? Is there anything that you just think, if we just got rid of that, or we just got that right, it would all click into place?
Al ElliottIf we could mandate self-awareness, many of the problems would dissipate or be more easily managed. Great harm is done to other human beings by people who don't know themselves. Even greater harm is done to vulnerable, but all human beings, by powerful people who think they know themselves well, but don't. And that is the case, by the way. And this is not my work. This is Tasha Juric. She's really brilliant. She does great stuff, really accessible kind of. She writes in a really accessible way. So a proper example of a scientific writer who doesn't try to bamboozle you.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo she's done great articles in HBR and things like that. And she talks about the fact that most people think they're self-aware. Like, if you ask people, are you self-aware? Most people, it's like 95% of people say, yes, I'm self-aware. But when you actually do some probing questions, she's got this big set of people. I don't know why I couldn't remember what that's called, but a big group of people that she's done this inventory on. And she's discovered that when you ask people that 95% say they're self-aware, but when you actually probe a little bit, 10 to 15% of people are self-aware. And so this gap is damage that's just waiting to happen. And then the other part is that she talks about internal and external self-awareness. The idea that internal is that we know our values and our principles. So we'll probably know the name of something that's important to us. It's a value, it's a principle, and we'll know that. And it really will. I'm I'm not even maligning it. It really will be very important to people. But external self-awareness is how those principles interact with the world outside, how people receive those things. And so the story I often tell is the idea that every one of us, every person listening to this has met this man, and it will be a man, who said to you the first time you met them, the thing you need to know about me is, this is a declaration of internal self-awareness, right?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThe thing you need to know about me is that I'm direct and honest. And everybody listening to this right now knows that man is an asshole.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottAnd it's not that he means to be. It's simply that he's unaware that direct and honest for him comes across as thoughtless, callous, cruel to other people. If we could remedy this, 2 things would happen. One, people would understand the harm that they're doing. And want, because I do believe most people don't want to do harm, they'll do it less. But also the people who continue to do harm will now know that they're a different kind of actor. They're not actually people who are unaware of the harm they're doing. They know the harm they do and they're choosing to sustain it despite the fact that they've got an alternative. And that's, that's why I think that self-awareness piece would be so huge for us because we can respond differently to people who we understand they're actually evil, not incompetent.
Leanne ElliottWhat a soundbite to leave that on. My goodness. I mean, before— I do have a very couple quickfire questions. Close eye on the time, so I'm gonna rattle through these. John, what is your favorite book?
Al ElliottOh, um, I have to go with Whistling Vivaldi by Claude Steele. It is right here. It's a brilliant, uh, it's a brilliant book on stereotype threat.
Leanne ElliottIs peanut butter better in the US or the UK?
Al ElliottOh, it doesn't matter where you get it. Peanut butter is better when it's unhealthy versions rather than the healthy version. My sister only has the healthy version in her house and I will not eat it. Whereas I, once a month probably, buy a big jar of like Skippy or Jif. It does not matter, which is, I do believe mostly sugar and I eat it with a spoon.
Leanne ElliottCrunchy or smooth?
Al ElliottAlways smooth, because this is, this is not about— look at the gaps in my teeth. I can't afford to eat the crunchy. I'll end up with those things in my teeth for the next 3 weeks. So it's got to be the smooth.
Leanne ElliottIf anyone hasn't watched Star Wars, not mentioning anyone in particular, but what watching order would you recommend?
Al ElliottSo you always start with A New Hope. I know it's the middle technically of the trilogy, but always start with A New Hope. And you'll meet R2-D2, this bloke here. You'll see lots of grownups waving around lightsabers. It's epic. Start with A New Hope and don't listen to the people who tell you that Star Wars has been ruined. Just remember that the first original Star Wars, they were designed for kids. And with each generation of them, it's not always designed for those of us who were kids back then. But I think it's bringing something. Even the ones I did not like, like anything with Jar Jar Binks in it, even the ones I didn't like, they are bringing something to a new generation of people who, who realize that rebelling against great evil is always worth it.
Leanne ElliottJohn Amaechi, thank you so much. What an incredible joy. Thank you. It's, it's, yeah, it's been phenomenal.
Al ElliottThank you. Such a pleasure.
Leanne ElliottI hope you enjoyed that. I know I sure did. There were some very Spicy thoughts about Jordan Peterson there that haven't been aired before. I'm sure we'll react to that in the new year on LinkedIn. Um, please do join us on Thursday for part 2 of our predictions episode. If you missed part 1, scroll back to Boxing Day, December 26th, and have a listen. It's a good one. Um, or don't, be a rebel and start with part 2. Why not?
Al ElliottMy prediction is you will not start with part 2. That's us. We're gonna go and have a glass of wine, a glass of bubbly, and celebrate the new year even No, we're not, because we're pre-recording this, so it's nowhere near New Year now. But we will definitely be having a glass of wine at this time when you're listening. We will see you on Thursday. Is it— was it Thursday predictions, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottI don't know, it's— I'm at this point, it's like Christmas time, who knows what day it is. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.
Al ElliottBye.