Episode 166 · 28 January 2025 · 57:10
166: Buzzword bingo and managerless teams. PLUS! Rob Hosking's Hot Take on why adaptability is critical in 2025
166: Buzzword bingo and managerless teams. PLUS! Rob Hosking's Hot Take on why adaptability is critical in 2025
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News Roundup: Workplace Buzzword Bingo
news roundup#news#workplace-buzzwords#buzzword-bingo
News Roundup: The Managerless Economy
news roundup#news#managerless#economy#management
News Roundup: Which generation is the most sensitive?
news roundup#news#generations#sensitivity#workplace
Hot Take of the Week: Rob Hosking on adaptability
Workplace Surgery: Crushing commutes
workplace surgery#workplace-surgery#commute#commuting
Workplace Surgery: Reigniting your top performers
workplace surgery#workplace-surgery#top-performers#motivation
Workplace Surgery: The wellness program backlash
workplace surgery#workplace-surgery#wellness-program#backlash
Show notes
Buzzword Bingo, Managerless Teams & Adaptability as the New Sexy
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) are back from their January road trip with a fresh news roundup: they play workplace buzzword bingo (ghost jobs, quiet vacationing, stealth sackings — anyone?), unpack why companies are quietly ditching middle managers, and dig into the psychology of generational sensitivity. Plus, former frontline police officer turned TEDx speaker Rob Hosking drops his Hot Take on why adaptability is the new sexy in 2025. And in the World-Famous Workplace Surgery: crushing commutes, robotic top performers, and a wellness program nobody believes in.
🗓️ Stories Covered
1. Workplace Buzzword Bingo — the trends that defined 2024 From ghost jobs (advertising roles that don't exist) to quiet vacationing, coffee badging, PIPs, quiet firing, silent layoffs, and the brand-new "stealth sackings" — Al and Leanne run through the terms that dominated workplace conversations last year and ask what they say about where we're heading in 2025. Spoiler: revenge quitting is apparently a thing now. Source → Business Insider
2. The Managerless Economy The Wall Street Journal reports that more organisations are getting rid of middle managers entirely. Al shares the four strategies from the piece — including learning all you can while you can and building your own network — while Leanne pushes back on the cyclical nature of this trend and what it means for the "pastoral" side of leadership. Source → Forbes: 4 Strategies for Working Without Managers
3. Which Generation Is the Most Sensitive? BBC Science Focus asks the clickbaity question, but the psychology underneath is genuinely interesting. Leanne unpacks why generational labels (latchkey kids, slackers, snowflakes) say more about the era than the people — and why age and world events shape our behaviours far more than the decade we happened to be born in. Source → BBC Science Focus
🔥 Hot Take of the Week: Rob Hosking on Adaptability
Former frontline police officer turned motivational TEDx speaker Rob Hosking joins the show with a bold prediction: adaptable is the new sexy.
Drawing on his years in policing — where plans went out the window the moment you arrived on scene — Rob argues that adaptability isn't just a nice-to-have in 2025, it's the critical skill for thriving amid constant change. His core message: we can train ourselves to be better at adapting, but it starts with letting go of the illusion of control.
Connect with Rob: linkedin.com/in/robhoskingofficial
💬 World-Famous Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Crushing commutes: "The office commute is crushing my soul. Is it just January blues, or is it time to quit?"
- Robotic top performers: "My best performers are turning into robots. How do I bring back their spark?"
- Wellness backlash: "My team thinks our new wellness program is just corporate lip service. How do I change their minds?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more. Nice.
Al ElliottCheck out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottThis is Bobby Bean and he's a miniature pinscher.
Al ElliottAnd he's a pain in the backside, although he won't stop barking, which is why I think he's on your, on your knee. Or are you just being soft? You're being a doggy mum.
Leanne ElliottUm, hello darling, that was well, that was beautifully timed. No, he won't stop barking, um, so, so that's why. Um, anyway, we're here to simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottAnd showcase our little tiny dog. Anyway, so it's still January, it's still the longest month in the year calendar. I think it's 93 days, we heard the other day. Hopefully we're gonna make the next 45 minutes a little bit more interesting and to also help you create amazing workplace cultures. Regular listeners will know that Tuesdays like today, Leanne and I bring you the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. We bring you a hot take from an industry expert, Spicy, the spicier the better. And we also give you the news roundup, which is where basically we tell you what's going on in the news.
Leanne ElliottWe do. And then every Thursday we bring you a brand new interview with an expert who knows how to create great workplace cultures.
Al ElliottThe more eagle-eyed, or eagle-eared if that's a word, people amongst you may have noticed that the audio quality is slightly different. And then if you're watching on YouTube, then the background is definitely very, very different. Uh, we are still working our way back from the UK to our home in Bosnia and Mostar. in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we have landed in the most beautiful farmhouse ever.
Leanne ElliottWe really have. It's absolutely stunning. It's about half an hour north of Venice. If you want the listing, the Airbnb host I'm sure will be thrilled. Um, it's got a huge dog garden for the dogs. It's all enclosed, so you don't have to worry about that. Um, and as I mentioned, January can be a little bit depressing. So yeah, we decided to mooch across Europe towards home, do some thinking and planning and strategizing, and Nature walking with our hounds to hopefully start February and the year in general with a bit more, bit more of a, what was the word? Pep in our step.
Al ElliottPep in our step, I like that. Is that right?
Leanne ElliottIt's not, is it?
Al ElliottI like it. No, I think we should keep it. Pep in your step, that's what we're looking for. 1st of Feb, pep in your step.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so we have been in very cosy cottages in northern France. We've been in an apartment in the amazing Reims. region of Alsace. Fun fact, it's the first time that Al and I have ever voluntarily been to France and we absolutely loved it. We then stayed with our good friends in Geneva in Switzerland and then we went to Italy to a converted wine cellar of same friends who live in Switzerland and now we're, as I said, just north of Venice and Bobby Bean wants his moment on camera so he's just got up. We're only about 8 hours from home now so I'm sure we'll be back.
Al ElliottI'm not gonna lie, setting up and breaking down the studio like 8 times on the road has not been that much fun, but it is a small price to pay to kick January firmly in the face.
Leanne ElliottYes. Now though, it is my favourite time of the week. Let's not delay it anymore.
Al ElliottAl, stick in the jingle. The jingle.
Leanne ElliottNews roundup. I didn't say that bit. It's time for the news roundup. That's my favourite section.
Al ElliottThey know that. They know that. Anyway, what have you seen this week, Le?
Leanne ElliottWorkplace Buzzword bingo. Al, do you wanna play?
Al ElliottLove to. I love this game.
Leanne ElliottSo I feel like in January, there's lots of articles around still looking back at trends of 2024 and looking ahead to 2025. Fair enough. I think we all need 3 or 4 weeks to bed into it. We certainly do, as you've heard. But this one is from Sarah Jackson in Business Insider, and I thought it was brilliant. It listed all the workplace buzzwords of 2024. So I thought we could play a little game, Al, of workplace buzzword bingo. Some of these we've mentioned on the show before, Others we haven't. Let's see if you can remember them or guess what they are.
Al ElliottOkay, let's go for it.
Leanne ElliottOkay, the first one, ghost jobs.
Al ElliottUh, when you have a second job? When you, um, when you work on Rent-A-Ghost, the, the TV program from the '80s in the UK. Such a niche reference. Don't worry, you're not gonna get that. Don't worry. What was a ghost job?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think you were talking about moonlighting. That's when you have more than one job.
Al ElliottAll right, okay.
Leanne ElliottUm, no, ghost jobs is when a company will advertise for a position but not actually have the vacancy. I've I've worked with many organisations that do this before, and we call it talent pooling in the recruitment world, which just makes good sense for jobs that you typically have a high turnover in and a high volume of. For example, call centre staff might be a typical talent pool job there. But yeah, apparently the purpose, according to this article, for an organisation doing it is to signal company growth, so they might just be doing it for ego, not for any particular reason, or to prepare talent pools. So, So yes, next one, quiet vacationing.
Al ElliottJust before you do that, could you not rub the dog's paw against the table? Because it's— we're recording it on the mic. So if you've heard some weird grumbling, it's not my stomach, it's the dog's paw, I think.
Leanne ElliottOh, is it?
Al ElliottAnyway, sorry, what was the second one, Le?
Leanne ElliottQuiet vacationing.
Al ElliottUh, so quiet quitting is when you stop— when you, when you lose interest in your work. So quiet vacationing would be when you lose interest in your vacation because you're thinking about work?
Leanne ElliottNo. So, well, no, it's not. Um, so apparently Quiet vacationing. I wasn't sure about this one actually. I had to look at the definition. It's employees taking vacations without officially requesting time off or informing their bosses. So I'm guessing that's maybe for employees who are typically remote might be able to do this.
Al ElliottUm, or if they work in the broom cupboard or something and no one sees them during the day, you could just—
Leanne Elliottyeah, yeah.
Al ElliottOr you could do a cardboard cutout. Or you could do like on, um, like on Home Alone, you could just do this through the silhouette of your glass door.
Leanne ElliottLike, yeah, yeah, you get— have you seen those things where you get like your cat to move the mouse tracker?
Al ElliottNo, brilliant though.
Leanne ElliottFor like the, you know, the remote monitoring things.
Al ElliottBrilliant.
Leanne ElliottYeah, um, apparently why it's an act of quiet resistance to rigid workplace rules. Here's one you'll know, Al. RTO.
Al ElliottReturn to office.
Leanne ElliottYeah, all those, all those people, men.
Al ElliottYou almost said it bad word thing.
Leanne ElliottUm, no, just Some leaders prefer to have people in their sight so they can feel a sense of control. I'd argue that those who are capable leaders don't think that's a necessary step, but, um, what do I know? I'm only a psychologist who knows the research. Anyway, hushed hybrid.
Al ElliottOh, uh, if that's gonna be hushed hybrid, then hybrid is when you work both in the office and remotely. So hushed hybrid Might be when you are quietly bringing people back, but you're actually not bringing them back.
Leanne ElliottIt's kind of the other way around, actually. So it's managers that empathise with their staff who have been called back to the office more days than they'd like. So they're kind of informally agreeing that they can work from home on certain days. So line managers with their team, and that's hushed hybrid.
Al ElliottOh!
Leanne ElliottI know, I applaud them.
Al ElliottToday I learned.
Leanne ElliottThere you go. Anything else? Coffee badging, we did that one before.
Al ElliottYep, when you basically scan in your work using your pass, get a cup of coffee, and then bugger off home because then that shows you've been in the office. But really all you've done is had a cup of coffee and shown your badge.
Leanne ElliottExactly. Um, you know this one as well, a PIP.
Al ElliottUh, performance input— uh, performance improvement plan is what someone would be— God, this is difficult— what someone might be put on if they like this, if they weren't— well, if the performance wasn't— doesn't improve.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. Um, sadly though, in 2024, this article points out that it was increasingly, increasingly used as a way to reduce headcount. Whereas what a PIP is designed to do is to actually support an employee with getting their performance back up to an acceptable level. So yeah, meant for good, used for evil. I think that was kind of the theme of 2024, really.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottQuiet firing.
Al ElliottYou just get rid of someone by giving them the minimum amount of work or something.
Leanne ElliottBasically treat them like rubbish.
Al ElliottOh, okay.
Leanne ElliottHope they'll resign. Then we had silent layoffs.
Al ElliottSilent layoffs, uh, again, uh, just quit. I don't know, would that just be getting rid of someone but not meant— how would you do that? How would you do a silent layoff?
Leanne ElliottSilent layoff is essentially asking— is making somebody redundant, giving them a severance payment, ask them to keep quiet about it.
Al ElliottOh, I see.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Um, and then this one—
Al ElliottSo what happens? Are you like, what happened to Derek?
Leanne ElliottOh, um, he decided to leave.
Al ElliottYeah, I know Derek's— yeah, no, he's moved to South America. Something to do with Colombians.
Leanne ElliottAnd this one I hadn't heard of, but again Honestly, it is so— it's so 2024, Al. Stealth sackings.
Al ElliottAgain, it sounds too much like the rest of them, so I'd say like very quietly getting rid of— but we already covered that. What is stealth sacking?
Leanne ElliottSo it's terminating employees for minor infractions, often to sidestep larger layoffs. And the article used the example of Meta firing staff for misusing meal credits.
Al ElliottOh, I see. Right, so that's the difference, isn't it? that you're being petty, but I'm guessing there's some kind of like law or HR behind that who know that that could be classed as gross misconduct or something.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think it depends on the contract, doesn't it? Particularly if somebody's in their probation period, you don't need much of a reason, and technically you could say that's breached kind of the ethical guidelines of the organisation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, seems a bit sneaky. So there you go, well done, Al. I think you got a lot of those right. The author did then also share some buzzwords and trends that might come around in 2025. Apparently upskilling and reskilling is gonna be a thing in terms of making sure our employees have got the skills they need to—
Al ElliottHow's it getting on with that dog? I was working out for you.
Leanne ElliottReally well. Yeah, in terms of the job demands around artificial intelligence. Are you off now? Can you go?
Al ElliottGo on.
Leanne ElliottYou just wanna show the world your bottom?
Al ElliottI don't think anyone needs to see that.
Leanne ElliottAI integration was talked about a lot. And then one that was kind of new, revenge quitting. Any guesses?
Al ElliottRevenge quitting. Uh, oh, I don't know. When someone— when your employer gives you like, oh, we're gonna bring you back to the work— back to work, and you just get really like rage quitting. You just go, they're gonna do that, so therefore I'm gonna tell them to stick it.
Leanne ElliottExactly. Yeah, I think it is the same as rage quitting. Um, sounds exactly that. Um, so yeah, there you go. Um, that's what we'll look up to look forward to in 2025. That is what defined 2024. All in all, I don't think it was I don't think it was a really great year from business leaders in terms of how they treat their employees, but then maybe that's not the case. Maybe it's a sign of the times. Though I did see that the latest employee engagement report out of the US has now put US workers' job satisfaction rates at the lowest they've been for almost 2 decades.
Al ElliottThat's a bit depressing, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottIt is, it is. I'm gonna ask you what you've got, but before I do that, I think you might need a poo.
Al ElliottThat's the dog, not me. Back after this very short break for the dog to have a pee.
Leanne ElliottOkay, we are back with a very satisfied dog. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottWell, the Wall Street Journal, you know, that, um, that publication I like to use, you know, to look important. They were basically talking about this new idea that big companies are getting rid of middle managers. Uh, 6% drop apparently in the last 4 years. Uh, the concern of this article is all about whether what the impact is going to have on the people left, the people who these managers used to manage.
Leanne ElliottHuh, interesting.
Al ElliottThis means they're potentially forcing people to navigate the workplace without a manager and work out on their own. Um, I don't know whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. I mean, Leanne, you're very, very bullish on managers. You say that a good manager can make a huge difference. Some people obviously hate their boss, so they'd be very, very pleased if they were got rid of. But this article suggests there are 4 possible ways that you can prepare yourself for a new, what they call, a managerless economy. Maybe I wrote that, I can't remember. If I wrote that, then that's It's good.
Leanne ElliottIt's good.
Al ElliottThe first one is that you should learn all you can when you can. So when your work puts on any kind of like course or educational event or something, go learn, because the more you learn, the less likely you're going to actually need a manager because you're going to learn exactly how the company works. The other thing is to take courses on your— in your own time on productivity, on efficiency, because the more efficient you are, then potentially The better work you're going to produce, even though you don't actually have a manager. The second thing they said was to elevate your interpersonal skills. When you don't have a manager, you may have to solve certain problems yourself. You may have to learn how to negotiate with senior leadership. You may— so the best thing to do is to watch what the managers do right now, the best managers do right now. Because if you're the person who can get stuff done and talk to senior leadership without a manager, then you're going to easily be able to lead teams and people just coalesce around you. The third thing is to get better at presenting. Because typically managers' jobs are to present further up the scale to senior leadership, potentially to external stakeholders. So if you learn how to present very well, then obviously that's going to put you in really good light with, again, senior management or with clients. The obvious flip side to that is if the client's been dealing with a manager who came in and was like, brilliant, okay, right, I'm going to show you how things are done. Great. How are you doing, Stuart? How are you doing, Jan? Right, we're off. And you walk in there bumbling and like, oh, I forgot my notes. And then you put the PowerPoint on and it's a picture of your dog, then that's not going to be the same, and you potentially could damage relationships there. Also, becoming great at sending clear and concise emails and messages, because you'll quickly be recognized as level-headed and clear, which means the big bosses are more likely to value you over others. And the 4th one, which is quite important I think, is to build meaningful networks, probably mainly within your organization but also outside of it. If you can look around and find the most productive and effective coworkers and you want to spend time with them. They're obviously going to help you to overcome obstacles. You'll learn a little bit by osmosis by spending time with them, and potentially you can just create an amazing team, which of course is going to make you look great when you bring on people who actually get stuff done. In terms of the more sort of social side of it, maybe try to find a work buddy, because your manager, often their job is to listen to you. So when you've got a problem or obstacle, help you overcome it. Could be kind of like— there's a word beginning with P and I can't remember. Please, listener, email and tell me what it is. But it's what teachers do. They teach, but they also have this other role, which is basically to look after your wellbeing. So if you can find someone who you can sort of like support each other, perhaps you can be their buddy, they can be yours. And then anytime you're having a hard time at work, then you don't have to go to your manager. You can just knock up your buddy and go, hey, Um, got time for a chat and a coffee. This article is basically telling workers they can't rely on the company anymore, which of course they are, because this is the way they— this is the way that they write to get your attention. You can't rely on the company anymore and you need to build your own support network. I'm wondering if this is actually the future of work, because potentially— do— are we— and I want to talk a bit more about what your thoughts on this, Leanne, are, but great managers are great, but they're also quite expensive. So there's a lot more companies who are going to flat structure, um, and getting rid of managers altogether. Lee, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottUh, first thought, pastoral. Was that the word?
Al ElliottThat's exactly the word I was thinking of. Thank you.
Leanne ElliottDidn't want to interrupt your flow. Um, I have a few thoughts on this. I think first of all it's cyclical, right? Because didn't we see like the whole flat organizational structure quite booming in like the early noughties? And I think we got a bit inflated, probably because the economy has been all right in Well, you know, post before 2020, and then we saw a lot of growth in tech. So with growth comes more teams, and more teams cause more challenges. That means more managers. So I can see this as a correction potentially. Some of the hiring that's happened would be my kind of my optimistic view. My pessimistic view is that business organizations want to make layoffs, and it's always easy to strip out the people who tell people what to do rather than. people actually doing it. I worry that there are organizations that hear statistics around managers being, you know, having the most single biggest impact on employee engagement, therefore if we get rid of managers, we're gonna improve employee engagement.
Al ElliottOh, I see, right, okay.
Leanne ElliottI don't think that's how it works, but I can see a misunderstanding of cause and effect there. And I think as well, what frustrates me about it is it's like, okay, well, if we don't have managers and they're the biggest impact on employee engagement and mental health, And therefore it's up to our employees to create their own networks around them, then we're no longer responsible for employee wellbeing. And it's like, it doesn't really work like that. I don't know, it's like saying if you sacked your HSE manager, you're still ultimately responsible for the health and safety of your team. If they fall down a hole, that's your fault. I think it's the same with the psychological impact of work. So I think it's lazy. I think it seems very typical of the leadership behaviors we're seeing right now, particularly in larger organizations, particularly in tech. Um, I'm not surprised. I'm a bit saddened. I think it's a bit baby with the bathwater, but equally I can see how it was also potentially a bit of a correction from the overhiring we saw during COVID Yeah, well, very, very good points.
Al ElliottI think the final thing I'd say on this is that, you know, when big companies zig, then small to medium companies should zag. Um, if big companies are getting rid of managers, then perhaps you double down as a smaller company, double down on the manager, create a, a really, really good management training within your organization, then you can potentially attract talent that is sick of the managerless autonomous rubbish they're going to get at Cisco, for example. Sorry, Cisco. Actually, I think you're a really good company. I just— you're the first big one that jumped into my head. So, um, yeah, quite interesting. The link to that is in the show notes, of course. Lee, what is the last thing we've seen this week? Well, last thing you've seen this week.
Leanne ElliottWhich generation is the most sensitive? You're not gonna— you have to read that article, right?
Al ElliottYes, you have to read the article because in your head you're like, oh yeah, I know, but go on.
Leanne ElliottWho is it?
Al ElliottWell, no, you see, I don't know because— no, when you said that initially, I was like, well, it's reported widely that Gen Z is the most sensitive, snowflakey, etc., etc.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottUm, but that's what's been reported in the news. It's not my opinion.
Leanne ElliottWell, well, let's see what— let's see what the psychology opinion is. So this is an article from BBC Science Focus.
Al ElliottOoh.
Leanne ElliottAnd it does, it's a pretty divisive question and it is clickbaity for sure, but equally, there's some really interesting science reported here, so I wanted to share it with you. So, they basically ask, are millennials really snowflakes? Are Gen Z entitled? Or actually, is it boomers that are getting their knickers in a twist about the world around them changing so much? According to neuroscientist Dr. Christian Garrett, Psychology may have the answer. Oh, kind of, really. Um, dare I say it, it might depend. Um, so Dr. Garrett pulled all the research, uh, to find out which generation is the most sensitive. First of all, he quoted a U.S. psychologist, Dr. Jean Twenge. Twenge? I don't know. Dr. Jean. Um, Dr. Jean reckons that millennials— um, if you're not sure, millennials are 1981 to 1996— They take the prize for being the most hypersensitive. She says they're more prone to things like neurotic narcissism and anxiety, thanks to growing up with participation trophies, the rise of individualism, and the early days of the internet. They also entered the workforce during 2008 financial crisis, which really did throw a bit of a spanner in the works in terms of early career. So she suggested that this has made them less equipped to handle criticism. But there is other research that doesn't necessarily back that up. So a big study of US high school students born between 1967 and 2006 found no major differences in traits like egotism or sensitivity across generations. So '76 to 2006, that'll include the Gen Xs, the Millennials, and some Gen Zs as well, quite a lot of Gen Zs. So yeah, so, so no real difference found, um, in that. Um, and then a 2019 study looking at people born between 1923 and 1969, so this is the Silent Generation and the Boomers, suggested it's actually older generations who show more signs of hypersensitivity. Many of them lived through some tough times, including World War II, the war recovery, rigid social norms, big societal changes, which might explain why they sometimes struggle with criticism or rapid change later in life. Al, thoughts? Which generation is the most sensitive?
Al ElliottSo, uh, Gen X were the— we complained that we were the original latchkey kids, that our parents weren't home. Um, so we're like, oh, you know, and then maybe we're just crying our eyes out about it. Millennials, they were complaining about helicopter parents and how difficult it is, so they can't get on them on the housing market because of boomers and people like me. I mean, some parts of life for them is much, much easier. And Gen Z, digital natives, I mean, God, we've got AI. If you, if you are now, say, 12 to 14 years old and you just spend a year immersing yourself in AI, you are going to have more skills than all the rest of us generations, older generations put together. So that's my thoughts.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think that's the trouble, isn't it, is that is that actually, is it really about generations or is it just about age? You know, the Boomers were the rebels who protested for peace and, and, um, invented the Peace Corps. And what else did they do? Lots of, um, environmental-based—
Al ElliottLots of drugs.
Leanne ElliottAnd lots of, lots of, um, herbs. Um, and then as you said, you had the Gen X who were known as like slackers, like the very Nirvana generation. And then You had millennials who are snowflakes and now Gen Z that are entitled. And what's interesting, there was a study last year that actually found that narcissistic traits, including hypersensitivity, actually decline with age. So actually, while Gen Z might seem more sensitive now, it's really because it's a youth thing than a generation thing. So yeah, I think it is— is it to say these generational labels Aren't useful? No, but I think they can be massively overgeneralized, and we need to be really careful about that.
Al ElliottThat's great. That's great. Well, there you go. That's the end of the news roundup for this week. Um, after this short break, we're going to be going to Rob Hosking for a hot take. Rob is a former frontline police officer turned motivational TEDx speaker. That's not, that's not the normal route, career route for police officers. And he thinks that being adaptable at work will be the superpower of 2025.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say— wait, Phil, host of Nerdcast. UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. As regular listeners will now know, every Tuesday we are joined by workplace experts and ask them for their hot take. What is happening in the world of work? We want bold insights, we want unpopular opinions, we might even want some cheeky predictions. Um, so what is going on? What is coming next? Um, and what do we need to brace ourselves for? This week, our hot take comes from Rob Hosking, a former frontline police officer turned motivational TEDx speaker who thinks being adaptable in work will be the superpower of 2025. Let's go and meet Rob and hear how he's teaching businesses and individuals lessons he learned from being a police officer in some really tough situations. Rob, welcome to Truth, Lies and Work. For our listeners who might not have heard of you, would you mind telling us who you are, what you do, and what you're famous for?
Al ElliottYes, I am Rob Hosking, former frontline police officer turned motivational TEDx speaker. But as you can probably imagine, there's a bit of a story in between. So what I'm well known for is the work that I do for businesses and even just for people in general, where I look into things like adaptability, resilience, and mental health, all these kinds of things that people need in their lives, but also businesses need in their lives to create thriving cultures, but also create thriving are thrivingness within themselves. So it's a nice blend of how we can create thriving, more successful individuals while also creating thriving and more successful businesses.
Leanne ElliottAnd I want to dive straight in. What is your hot take?
Al ElliottMy hot take is adaptable is the new sexy. Now, the word adaptable may not be on the top of your list to describe yourself as, When you think of your dating website or even your LinkedIn profile, when you look at LinkedIn profiles, people are saying they're hardworking individuals, they're passionate, they're a great team player, they're enthusiastic, all these great things, but they're quite standard. Let's face it, we see them time and time again. How many people describe themselves in their LinkedIn profiles, never mind anywhere else, But how many people describe themselves as adaptable? I don't think many people do. It's not on the top of their list. However, if we want to create a thriving culture, we have to become more adaptable. And when we become more adaptable, we can then create more adaptable teams. And when we do that, that means that we can create a culture where people can Overcome challenges. And these challenges that come about, they come about because business is ever-evolving. It's changing all the time. Therefore, adaptability is so important to be able to not only adapt to these changes, but to thrive amidst them. And this is kind of where I bring in my experience as a police officer, because when I think about my years as a police officer, I think, What was the, what was the thing that I had to be day in and day out? What's the thing that made me good at my job? Yes, a good communicator. Yes, a good team player. All these things are so important. But the one word would be adaptable. I had to adapt because policies changed all the time. The law itself changed all the time. And the incidents that I dealt with day in and day out.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottThey would evolve every minute, every second. So adaptability and being able to adapt amidst change was integral, not only to get a good outcome, but to get the right outcome and the best possible solution for everybody. So it's something that I've learned myself where I'm like, yes, I've had to adapt. And something like adaptability is something that we can learn. Because although we will all adapt in our lives for one thing or another, because we will have adapted in our lives, whether it's a new job, new relationship, a new location, new house, whatever it may be, we've all adapted. And if there's any parents listening to this, they probably know adaptability. Yes, I've completed it. But my point is, we've all had to adapt, but we can be better at it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd we can train ourselves to be better at it because we actually put the work into adapt in a better way. Then that means that we're going to be able to face challenges in a more confident, in a more enthusiastic, and also in just a better way all around. So we'll be able to hit the challenges head on and also overcome them. in a thriving manner. So that is why adaptability is the new sexy, in my opinion.
Leanne ElliottI guess what my, my, my immediate thought is, is adapting means adapting to change. And as humans, we find change really hard. How can we, as you say, train that in ourselves to become more adaptable?
Al ElliottThe first thing is we need to let go of the control of everything because Let's face it, we like to control things. We feel, especially with change, change probably impacts us most because we don't know how it's going to look, because we can't control how necessarily it will look at each stage. See, when we let go of that control, it means that we're less rigid. And in the police, if every incident that I dealt with, if I was rigid thinking, right, this is going to be the outcome of this incident I'm dealing with, I would miss so many things along the way that potentially may have changed my mind about that outcome. So if I was rigid, I would just score that outcome and then make it fit. But by being flexible, I'd be able to adapt to change in a better way because I wouldn't be rigid to that outcome. So I'd be like, well, well, let's see how it goes. And I always say in my talks, I think we should all be palm trees. And people are always like, did he just tell me to be a palm tree? Like, yes. Be a palm tree, because when we compare a palm tree to an oak tree, there is a stark difference. You see, an oak tree may be sturdy, impressive, but it's rigid. And when a storm comes, its rigidness acts as its weakness, because when a storm comes, the rigidness of the branches will cause it to fall down and things like that. And if the storm's really bad, the oak tree may actually topple itself. However, what do palm trees do? Palm trees move with the wind. They move with the storm. They change with the changing environments. They are flexible and they are adaptable and they bounce back. When you think of the branches of a palm tree, they always bounce back. Don't be rigid because your rigidness will only act as your weakness and it will only act as your downfall. So be flexible in your approach. That gives us a better relationship with change and helps us become more adaptable. And I think whether politicians or business owners or whatever, this idea of adaptability and having this good relationship with change, having this good relationship with resilience and all these things, it is key. It is key. So for us all to be able to not only survive amidst each other, not only survive in the workplace, not only survive as a business or as a country, but to thrive within it. Because that's what we want. We want unity as much as possible, because unity within a business, unity within a country, that is what's going to make the difference in a positive way. We will achieve nothing by being divided. So by being adaptable, being flexible, we have more respect for one another. And it's that old saying of, you know, walk in someone else's shoes. Always be— always being open-minded, that's the key. Be open-minded with anything in your life, because when we're more open-minded, then unity can come. And when unity's there, we can thrive because we're being adaptable as a result. But there's so many— there's so many ways that we become more adaptable in the workplace, whether it's as a leader or within a team. And one of the things I always talk about is commit to learning and development. Now, you've said there about how we have been divided, and I think this connects brilliantly with that, because when we commit to learning and development, this isn't just in a professional sense, but it's, it's learning about what other people are going through, the challenges they're going through, because let's face it, we all go through unique challenges.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd that's one of the things I learned as a police officer, where like 90% of the calls that I dealt with were mental health related. And what I learned was someone's crisis looks different. Everybody's crisis will look different, and it's up to us never to judge somebody who's going through something because we think, why are they getting impacted by that? That's not a big deal. That may not be a big deal for you, but it's a big deal to them. So it's about being nonjudgmental. Yeah. So when we commit to learning and development, we're not just about learning new skills. It's about learning how we can help each other out, how we can show compassion, empathy, and support. Committing to learning and development is so key in adaptability because you're learning new things. You're learning new, new ways to look at the world and at business and at people. Which can only be a benefit whether you're a leader, a colleague, or whoever you may be. That is another important aspect to adaptability.
Leanne ElliottSo what Al didn't include in that hot take was what I was most excited about, and that was the merchandise and clothing line that me and Rob were going to start together. Um, t-shirts that just say, be a palm tree. Um, and do you know what, it makes sense. And I love an analogy like that that kind of helps people understand the complexities of human behavior and resilience and all those things. And I think it's true. It's not to say that you can't, you know, you have to be inflexible to be powerful or dominant. You can have this adaptability and actually, in the long— when we talk about longevity, having that adaptability and flexibility and not as much rigidity, it's probably gonna make sure that you kind of survive longer as the palm trees do. So yeah, I loved Rob's analogies there and we will We will be setting up that TikTok shop soon.
Al ElliottYeah, so adaptability, clearly that's really useful for a small organisation. I think it's, yes, larger organisations should take, should accept that and should be a bit more adaptable, but that's a really tough ask. I mean, let's be honest, if you're IBM, they always say you can't turn a ship liner around. That's not exactly the right phrase, but you can't turn a big ship around. And IBM's like that, you know, it's difficult to, difficult to change that sort of Culturally.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think, you know, the research backs it up. Small organizations do tend to have a bit more success with any type of change initiative, but I think it also comes down to the fact that not many people think about change ahead of said change. They just kind of, kind of jump into it. So yeah, I think there's a good lesson in terms of organizational change as well as individual change there as well from Rob.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. If you're interested in change or you're about to go through some kind of change at your organization, go back to Hillary Scarlett's episode. I forget what it is. I want to say something like '96, '97. Um, Hilary Scarlett is an expert in the neuroscience of change, written a book by the same title, I think, um, and it's definitely worth checking out. Lee, it's on to my favorite time of the week, if I'm allowed to move on.
Leanne ElliottYou are, but as always, Al, we will leave all the links for Rob in the show notes so you can learn more about his work, what he does, watch his TEDx talks, and get in touch. Um, and like I said, if you fancy that TikTok shot. Then, then let us know, maybe create a petition and we'll get on it.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. He's got a lovely speaking voice as well, so it's a pleasure to listen to, a pleasure to edit him this morning. So, uh, definitely go and check that out. Okay, so it really is my favorite time of the week, which is the time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. As you can see, we've got our senior podcast production producer on my lap. I had to swap over because he was just being a pain in the neck. In our old house, we could We can lock him in a different room, but we can't do that. We don't do that. We don't do that. Anyway, Lee, so question number 1, are you ready?
Leanne ElliottI'm ready.
Al ElliottThe office commute is crushing my soul. Is it just January blues, or is it time to quit? Here's the letter. I'm really struggling with motivation since returning to our new hybrid schedule, or schedule, not sure how to say it. That's 3 days in the office after the holidays. The commute feels harder than ever, and I can't tell if this is just typical January blues or something Something perhaps a little bit deeper. I was very productive working from home and even through most of last year with just one office day, but the company has said they need to increase the office time to improve collaborations. This is the RTO mandate that Leanne keeps talking about. But honestly, I spend most days in the office on video calls with international teams, so it just seems like a waste of time. My energy is at rock bottom by the time I get home. I genuinely like my job. and I like my team, but these dark mornings and expensive commutes are making me question everything. Leanne, am I just being dramatic about the winter blues, or should I be looking for a fully remote role?
Leanne ElliottI don't think you're being dramatic, but we might need a little bit of self-reflection here, because I think the thing is, don't underestimate the impact of seasonal affective disorder. It's really, really bad and brutal, and it all comes down to to light and sleep patterns and hormone levels and lots of actual chemistry within our body and that impacts our mood. So I wouldn't underestimate that. I'd look at ways that maybe you can help with things like that. Honestly, vitamin D supplements are pretty life-changing. I use them all year round. So I think that's one thing is to see if there's anything, any kind of lifestyle changes you might be able to make at this moment to help with that. Equally, this is a really tough, tough situation when you've been called back into the office when remote work was working really nicely for you, having that flexibility was working really nicely for you. And we know that that flexibility and that autonomy is such a big part of employee engagement. So, it's completely understandable that you're starting to feel a bit more detached from work or it's starting to feel a bit harder because your engagement level has gone down. It might still be positive, but it would have gone down.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottimpacting the thoughts and feelings you have about your work. So, I think that's the overall, from both perspectives of it, in terms of seasonal affective disorder and in terms of those changes in your organization, how you're feeling is entirely normal, completely normal, so no drama here. What I would say is spend a couple of evenings, maybe this week, with an exercise that I love from Dr. Audrey Tang. It's in her book, The Leader's Guide to Resilience. called VITALS, and what it does is it helps you assess all the various aspects of your life. You can do it through the lens of work, you can do it through the lens of personal life, more than likely it's gonna be a combination of both. So your VITALS are your values, your interests, your temperament, your around-the-clock, so that's how and where you like to work, which is very relevant for you, your life goals, and your strengths. And it's looking at all these things and thinking about, where are my VITALS currently being Are they being met through work? Is it that around the clock is also gonna impact the life goals that I have in terms of raising a family or raising children or having the work-life flexibility that you want? What we know from the science and what Dr. Audrey taught us is that when our vitals are out of sync or when our vitals aren't being met, that's when our mental health and our wellbeing and our resilience starts to suffer, and that can only suffer for so long.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottEqually, it's really unlikely we're gonna have all of our vitals met at once, or all of our vitals met from one source. So it could be that there will be other elements of your vitals that will be met through your community, through your family, through your personal life, or anything else you have going on outside of work. This is a really, really useful article, 'cause I think if it comes down to the fact that you're around the clock, the flexibility in terms of where and how you work, if that is really an important vital to you, and not having that flexibility is gonna impact other vitals over time, Then yeah, if this is the way that your company is going, this is the route they're taking in terms of return to office, it might be worth looking for another job. The other thing I'd say though is you said that you spend most of your days in the office talking to international teams. Typically what organisations do is a very blanket policy for every employee, and not every employee is always in exactly the same situation. It could be worth having a conversation with your manager. Like we said, what do they call it? Hush hybrid hushing or hushed hybrid? Oh yeah, yeah. It might be that your manager agrees Actually, your presence isn't required in the office as frequently. It might be that there's some flexibility in that policy, you know, that your manager can use their discretion or in terms of individual circumstances. So it might be worth as well just kind of scoping out exactly how rigid this RTO policy is. But that would be my thoughts. Look at some ways to look after yourself and your mental health right now. Do some reflective work in terms of how important this return to work mandate is.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottis and the impact it's going to have on other aspects of your life, which could in turn impact your resilience and your wellbeing. And finally, consider having a conversation with your manager if it is the case that your job doesn't really need to be on site as much as some of your colleagues perhaps.
Al ElliottGreat advice. Great advice. I think I'd just only add that we are— what did you say the other day? 60 days away from the clocks going forward? Something like that. So, you know, if you can just stick it out for another—
Leanne Elliottwhat's 2 months.
Al ElliottYeah, exactly, 2 months. You just need to stick it out for another 8 Mondays. If you can stick it out like that and just see how you feel there, you're not making any major decisions. And then by that stage, hopefully you'll find out whether it is just January blues, which I think all of us like. We love podcasting, but, um, but it still feels a little bit more of an effort in January. I think most things in work do. So, but good luck with it all, and, uh, and let us know how it turns out. We'd love to hear.
Leanne ElliottWhat else you got, Al? Who else did we get letters from this week?
Al ElliottWell, here we go. My best performers are turning into robots. How do I bring back their spark? So this person writes, as a manager of a team, I'm seeing worrying signs that some of my previously high performers are doing the bare minimum. No one's explicitly slacking, but there's a noticeable drop in initiative and enthusiasm. We've had good retention and our engagement scores were strong last quarter, but something feels off. I'm seeing less participation in meetings, slower email responses, and people sticking rigidly to their job descriptions. 3 of my best people haven't contributed a single new idea in months. How do I address this without making accusations or driving people away? Lee, I've got this in the back of my head, one of the bullshit— no, you can't say that word— one of the, one of the bingo words you said. Was it quiet quitting?
Leanne ElliottYeah, it sounds like a classic case of quiet quitting, doesn't it? And quiet quitting is usually Some kind of self-protective tactic against burnout. Sounds like your people have been working hard and at a high level for a long time, and you've benefited from that in terms of low turnover and high performance, but ultimately that energy is going to have an impact. So yeah, it sounds like that's the case. You've got some quiet quitting, some potential early signs of burnout happening in your team. I think you need to flip the question rather than kind of looking at, people to blame or reprimand, kind of going, well, what can I change about the current environment that might support people with their, with their well-being and their resilience whilst being able to maintain levels of performance? And that usually comes down to one of two things. It actually comes down to resources. It's, it's— there's only 6 things you can do to build an awesome workplace culture, maybe 7 arguably, but there's, there's one called resources. And this is the number one thing that always comes out with any organization I work with who are struggling. With quiet quitting or burnout, and that's because there's not enough people contributing to the work and the workload's too high. And I understand it's like, oh, well, that's just the way it is, particularly in small businesses. Yeah, but what's gonna happen is you're gonna go through these periods where you have very high performance, and then you're gonna have lots of high turnover, and then you'll go through the cycle again, and that ultimately slows down growth massively, whereas sustaining at a level that is manageable, It's much more effective for long-term success and growth of your business. The other thing to think about in terms of resources is that sometimes it can be helped by improved processes, streamlined processes, less red tape, less bureaucracy, more autonomy within people's role. Role, that's another way you can create an awesome workplace culture. Are people going above and beyond to their detriment? Are they stepping on toes? Is there some infighting because, you know, they've been contributing these ideas in ways that their colleagues might not feel is appropriate. There's some investigation to do here. If last quarter your engagement levels were high, that seems that either if you do it again this quarter, you're going to see a significant drop, or depending on the tool you're using, you're not measuring what you think it is you're measuring. A lot of employee engagement tools, I won't mention any, Gallup, might think more about a focus on employee satisfaction than employee engagement necessarily.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt depends on the science you follow and how you want to use the data. So I think, I think some more investigation needs to be done. I would recommend looking at a predictive model of engagement, a survey like the RX7 or other similar ones out there, the HSE management standards we talk about a lot, that's completely free. And make sure you're actually measuring employee engagement and not employee satisfaction, because they're 2 very different things with 2 very different outcomes.
Al ElliottI think it's good because you said something, let me just see this, how do I address this without making accusations? So you're clearly thinking in the right way. But it does sound to me like, again, I'm not shilling our own product here, but it does sound to me like your engagement survey is measuring the wrong thing. Because to go from Q4 to Q1, such massive changes in employee behaviour, just doesn't sound quite right to me. So, drop it, right, if you're listening to this, which I hope you are, drop Leanne an email, send her the tool you're doing and the results if you want. She'll look through them. I'm sorry, I'm going given you more work either, but I'm sure she'll look through them and she'll tell you what she thinks. Are you ready for question number 3, or anything else to add on question number 2?
Leanne ElliottThe only thing I'd add is don't feel bad. There's so many organizations that do use what are branded as employee engagement surveys and aren't really. I had a client that I worked with once that I said to them, oh, maybe that it might be a case that employee engagement is suffering a little bit, and he was like, oh, well, my results were really great last Cool, they're in their 8% plus. I was like, cool, what was your turnover rate? And he's like, 50%. I was like, um, yeah, no. Um, so it's really common, um, and it's really just about making sure you've got— like all things, isn't it? It's like if you've got a CRM, you want to make sure it's, it's the right one. Um, anyway, that's all I have to say on that.
Al ElliottLovely, lovely. Good luck with that. Um, question number 3: my team thinks our new wellness program is just corporate BS. How do I prove we actually care? I launched our company's new wellness initiative back in October 2024 with things like lunch break walking clubs and monthly wellbeing workshops. But instead of enthusiasm, I'm getting eye rolls and people accusing me of corporate BS. The irony is this program came from our engagement survey. Oh, another engagement survey. Good. Where people said they wanted more support for mental health and work-life balance. We've invested significantly, but the attendance is low, and some team members have directly said it feels forced and patronizing. How do I make this work without it coming across as some kind of tick box exercise? Lee, this is quite a common one, this, isn't it? I think, I think you're going to pick up 2 or 3 things that I've seen here that you're going to be picking apart. Carry on.
Leanne ElliottNo, you please, you pick apart first.
Al ElliottWell, first of all, I think that, uh, the actual— people have asked for support with mental health, and that doesn't necessarily mean that you go ahead and go, right, well, I've created 3 things. We're going to do a lunchtime walking club, uh, we're gonna do, uh, we're gonna do a well-being workshop, and we're gonna do something else. What did he say? And I'm just like, that just seems like it's a sticking plaster. And also, who wants to go to a workshop that says basically I'm struggling? Because then you're going to signal to the management that you're not happy, and you're also going to be, you know, some of the co-workers might be like, where's he gone? Oh, he's off to the, uh, he's off to the SAD workshop which goes on on a Monday afternoon. That's my thoughts. Let's hear from the proper psychologist.
Leanne ElliottUm, yeah, I think you've missed a step. Your people have said that they want help with their mental health and work-life balance. Did you then ask them how? And I can't imagine any of them go, do you know what would really fix my work-life balance? A walking session at lunchtime. That'll do it. That'll totally do it. Um, yeah, you've missed a step here. And also, I think There's such a misunderstanding around wellbeing that it has to be these types of interventions, these individual-based interventions. 80% of your wellbeing strategy should be the same as your operations strategy. How are people, how are they recruited? What do their roles look like? What gives meaningful work within that role? How does it contribute to the reason of the organization, that mission delivery? How are they recognized? How are they compensated? How are they helped in terms of their resilience to set healthy work-life boundaries? What are the policies around managers contacting people after work? Holiday pay, are we making sure that we have good holiday pay, we have good holiday allowance, and people are actually taking them? There's so many things that are actually operational in terms of what will actually support our employees with their mental health, their wellbeing, their resilience, their work-life balance. It is not workplace Lunching, walkabouts. The exception might actually be kind of coaching sessions while walking can be really good, but that's more for development. Yeah, I think you've just gone into that usual trap of going, oh, they want help with wellbeing, cool, let's just Google wellbeing interventions and the first 10 providers that come up, we'll order the 3 cheapest. So yeah, that's not really what wellbeing is. Understandably, your people are calling BS. They're saying it is wellness washing. Because that's exactly what it is. What you've implemented is not what they need. And I think to undo this quickly, you're actually going to have to go, what is it that you need support with in terms of your wellbeing and work-life balance? And I'm confident that nothing they say will be solved by the solutions you've recently implemented. I'm sorry.
Al ElliottSounds like we've been really harsh on you for writing in. And obviously, I'm not going to say your name. be really harsh. If you— when you're listening to this, please don't take that as like we're just crapping on you from a great height. We're not. I think what Leanne's saying is that— and correct me please if I've got this wrong— but what Leanne's saying is you're like, you're 80% there. You've asked them how they feel, you've asked them what they want help with. It's just that last bit. You've got— you've gone into sort of manager mode, or potentially— it doesn't say whether you're the business owner or not— potentially entrepreneur mode, where you go, I see a problem, let's go fix it.
Leanne ElliottAnd you want to fix it quickly, and asking follow-up questions might seem like a lot of time and effort, but as you can see, if you don't, you can fall into the trap of putting in a solution that actually causes more resentment. Also, you're really not to blame. The wellbeing industry is full of nonsense. It's full of lots of people that aren't qualified. It's full of lots of poor products that make businesses billions of pounds a year. Go back to—
Al ElliottHi, Bob.
Leanne ElliottAmy McCurran was talking about exactly this, that wellbeing needs to burn to the ground and hopefully we can rebuild it again, because it's screwing over people like you who are trying to do the right thing through false information and lack of science. So it really isn't your fault. And the harsh words more come from a frustration from our perspective that you've been put in this situation because of wellbeing as an industry being where it is. So yeah, it's really not your fault. I'm sorry you've lost that money and probably some level of engagement from your team, but you can absolutely fix it. Hold a listening event, get back to your engagement survey results saying, you said this, this is what the data showed us, what do you mean? Can you give us some examples of things that would be helpful? And I'm sure that actually 80% of the things they tell you will be free of cost. It'll be in your gift as a manager or as a business leader to impact and to change your policies, probably operational, I'd imagine most of them. So yeah, not all is lost. And sorry to be harsh, but It's not— we're not frustrated at you, we're frustrated at the people out there that have put you in this position where you've wasted your money, um, and, and yeah, made a worse experience for your people.
Al ElliottWe're not angry at you, we're just disappointed, as my mother used to say. Uh, actually, that's not true, my mother used to be angry and disappointed. Anyway, hi, Pat, if you're listening. God, I hope she's not. Anyway, uh, I think one last thing while Leanne Just coughs their guts up. You're not allergic to dogs, are you, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottMaybe.
Al ElliottIt's a bit too late to, uh, to find out. Anyway, so just a last— one last thing on that is potentially, if you, if you feel like you're able to, to stand up there to your team and go, look, we did some things, we put them in place, you called BS on them, clearly I've not done this right. So tell me, what can we do right? Because take, take the positive away from this, you're getting some reaction. What's it— what's it they say? The opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy. The opposite. So you're getting people who are actually willing to step up and go, what you've done is rubbish. So they care enough to tell you. In theory, they might actually hate you. I'm sure they don't, but they care enough to tell you. So you've got a huge opportunity to go, okay, fair enough, this might be rubbish. So how are we going to do it properly? Don't go, what would you do? But just mainly go, all right, fair enough. I see what you're saying. What would you do? How would you change this to make it better? Yeah. it right. I think you're onto something really, really special there. Um, I think it's great. Lee, anything to add before we say our goodbyes?
Leanne ElliottNo. Was that all 3?
Al ElliottThat was all 3. I know you had a whale of a time. You answered them absolutely perfectly. Um, and, um, if you have— sorry, I got distracted by the dog again. If you've got your own question that you want Leanne to answer, then just check the emails, check the show notes for the email. Um, and that dog really is distracting. Check the show notes for the And you will— you'll find a way to get in touch. This Thursday coming, we might have the first CEO of a billion-dollar company on the podcast. Tony Jamos. I've really struggled with his name. It's J, it's like famous with a J, and I was like, is it Jamos like in Spain? Is it Jamos like in, like in the Balkans? No, it's Jamos as in jambon.
Leanne ElliottJamos.
Al ElliottUm, he's from Oyster HR, and he talks about how to create amazing workplaces when you have employees working in different countries. And yes, we did ask him about whether it's fair to pay workers in, say, the Philippines half or a quarter of what you pay in the US, and his answer was brilliant. I think you're gonna like it.
Leanne ElliottAnd the following Tuesday, we'll be back with another This Week in Work. We'll bring you our news roundup, our hot take from another incredible expert, and our world-famous weekly Workplace surgery, and I promise you, we will not have the dog and the distraction. This is what managers are talking about when, like, people bring their pets on Zoom at the beginning of the call and stuff. Like, it is really distracting, I get it. But maybe you feel connected to us because you've seen one of our little furry friends, or maybe you've just found it really irritating and aren't listening anymore. Either way, here we are. If you wanna get in touch with the show, LinkedIn is a really good place to do it. You can also email us, we'll leave that in the show notes. We also leave a link where you can book in a meeting directly with us, particularly if you want to talk about anything culture or employee engagement. That's kind of my thing. There's also a load of resources in the show notes if, like our first listener that's in the Workly Workplace Surgery, whatever it is, if January blues are getting you down, if you are struggling, you're not alone. You're really not. There are lots of organizations, lots of help that you can access for completely free.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottNo charge around the world. We will leave all the links to that in the show notes.
Al ElliottTalking of helping, if you really want to help the show, then potentially by subscribing— well, not potentially at all, actually subscribe would really help. But also maybe think about going on LinkedIn and just saying, I've just listened to an episode of Truth, Lies and Work podcast, um, really enjoyed it, and tell us why. Because that has much more of an impact than you think, because the people in your network trust you, and if they hear you saying that, they might come and listen, and that will help us. Lee, anything Anything to add before we say goodbye to these lovely people?
Leanne ElliottNope.
Al ElliottOkay, have a fabulous, fabulous week. We will see you on Thursday, and then it's February and we'll be back, we'll be back home in Mostar. So we'll see you soon. Bye guys, bye-bye.