Episode 190 · 22 April 2025 · 57:56
190: Is being busy a personality? PLUS! Being lucky, manager mates and job offer red flags - This Week in Work, 22nd April 2025
190: Is being busy a personality? PLUS! Being lucky, manager mates and job offer red flags - This Week in Work, 22nd April 2025
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Story 1: What is 'alonement space'?
news roundup#alonement#workplace-culture#language
Story 2: Are you lucky? The Bezos interview question
news roundup#luck#interview-questions#jeff-bezos#hiring
Story 3: What great teams actually do differently
news roundup#teamwork#team-dynamics#research#high-performing-teams
Hot Take: Being busy isn't a personality
hot take#busy-culture#productivity#work-life-balance#hot-take
Workplace Surgery: Six interviews, then a pay cut?
workplace surgery#job-interviews#salary#pay-cut#career-advice
Workplace Surgery: I hate working — is that bad?
workplace surgery#career-satisfaction#motivation#work-attitude#mental-health
Workplace Surgery: Can managers still have mates?
workplace surgery#management#friendship#workplace-relationships#boundaries
Show notes
Is Being Busy a Personality? PLUS! Being Lucky, Manager Mates & Job Offer Red Flags
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the new workplace trend of "alonement spaces," why Jeff Bezos asks candidates if they're lucky, and what a study of nearly 1 million workers reveals about great teams. Plus, in the Hot Take: why chronic busyness isn't a personality — and what to do about it. And in Workplace Surgery: six interviews then a pay cut, hating the idea of work itself, and whether managers can still have mates.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. What is "alonement space"? Post-pandemic offices are embracing "alonement spaces" — designated areas where employees can work privately, with focus and peace. Leanne breaks down why this new word (being considered for the Cambridge Dictionary) reflects a real shift in how we think about office design after years of hybrid work. Source →
2. Are you lucky? Why Bezos might ask you that Al unpacks Jeff Bezos's favourite interview question — "Are you a lucky person?" — and explores the psychology behind optimism, self-awareness, and perceived control. Plus, a classic experiment on "lucky" people and why they spot opportunities others miss. Source →
3. What great teams actually do differently Leanne revisits a landmark study of nearly 1 million workers that found one powerful truth: leadership makes or breaks team performance. Great cultures aren't built on perks or policies — but by how people are led every day. Trust, autonomy, and structured support matter more than any foosball table. Source →
🔥 Hot Take: "Being Busy Isn't a Personality" — with Cass Briscoe
Workplace culture expert Cass Briscoe, founder of Soft Work Society, challenges the culture of overwork head-on. She argues that chronic busyness is often fear-based — driven by insecurity and control rather than productivity.
Cass shares how to create micro-boundaries, make space for deep thinking, and reject the hustle-as-identity mindset. Plus: why "not yet" might be the most powerful word in your vocabulary, and how to stop letting someone else's to-do list become yours.
More from Cass Briscoe: linkedin.com/in/cassbriscoe
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- "Six interviews, then a pay cut?" — After six rounds of interviews, a new graduate is offered the job — at £5k less than advertised. When questioned, the recruiter gets defensive. Is this standard practice, or a flashing red flag?
- "I hate working — is that bad?" — One listener doesn't hate their job; they hate the whole idea of working. Is that burnout talking, or is it time to rethink what work should be? (Featuring a classic Aesop fable.)
- "Can managers still have mates?" — A team lead is torn: half their mates are on their team… and they're all going to game night. Can leaders still be social, or is this a boundary they shouldn't cross?
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
🎧 Coming Up Thursday…
We're talking to Nick Huber, aka The Sweaty Startup guy — entrepreneur, investor, and newly minted majority stakeholder in Somewhere.com. With 325+ employees, no fluff, and a bold philosophy on hiring and leadership, Nick brings the straight-talking energy you need to hear. Out Tuesday the 22nd.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work, would you hire someone just because they said they were lucky? Well, Jeff Bezos did, and according to new research, that answer might reveal more about a candidate than you think.
Leanne ElliottAnd a landmark study of 1 million employees has revealed the one thing that great teams always get right. It's not talent or budget or even workload. It's how the team is led, Day in, day out. So what exactly do the best managers do differently? Stay tuned to find out.
Al ElliottAnd in the Workplace Surgery, what if it's not your job you hate, but the entire idea of working? One listener questions the 9-to-5 grind and wonders whether they're being idealistic or just saying what everyone else is thinking. We're also going to hear from Cas Briscoe on why being consistently busy isn't a personality and what we should be doing instead.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures. Let's dive straight into this week's episode right after a very quick word from our sponsors.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. It's Leanne's favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It is my favourite time of the week. Cue the jingle.
Al ElliottLet's cue it. Okay, my love, what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottI've got a new word.
Al ElliottYou always have a new word. Go on.
Leanne ElliottNot always, but this one actually made it into the air. It's being considered for inclusion in the Cambridge Dictionary.
Al ElliottFancy.
Leanne ElliottThe word is alonement.
Al ElliottAlonement. Not allotment?
Leanne ElliottNot allotment. Alonement.
Al ElliottSo am I going for the— am I going to guess the definition? Is that what you're saying? Uh, alonement is when, is when you like to be alone. It's the alonement. So you have some alonement time.
Leanne ElliottUm, yeah, pretty much. But specifically, It's in the office.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo, alonement is a designated area in an office where an employee can go to work in silence and privacy without being distracted by their colleagues. So basically, your own little corner to think, breathe, and get stuff done without any kind of interruption. Um, yeah, so apparently it's been called a mini fortress of solitude without leaving the office.
Al ElliottQuite grand.
Leanne ElliottIt is a little bit, isn't it?
Al ElliottBasically, it's the broom cupboard.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think it makes sense really. After a few years of working at home in relative peace, many people are finding the return to open-plan offices a little bit overwhelming. All the noise, constant visibility, pressure to always be on, not being able to just go and make a cup of tea whenever you want. So yeah, that's what it is, is being coined alonement. Al's thoughts?
Al ElliottI'm a huge, huge fan of quiet time. Also, I'm a big fan of being able to, like, having a different area for different work. Now, I know not everyone can do that, But it's kind of nice if like you're working, like Leanne and I work in an office together. It'd be kind of nice if you had another separate space, which you do actually. Our, um, we built a little, uh, a little breakfast bar. Uh, so you go and sit there sometimes and you work and I just want to go and go there and work somewhere else or just go there and— is it soundproof? Can you scream?
Leanne ElliottUm, well, it's not specifically. I think it's more that it's just a designated space, but I agree. And I think when, um, long-term listeners will know when we've recorded the podcast from Water Cooler, from Clerkenwell Design Week, We partnered with an organisation called Oboe who provided us with a mute pod, which is basically like, it's like a large telephone box that sounds crazy.
Al ElliottDon't tell Gary you described it like that.
Leanne ElliottWell, you know, it just, it's, you know, if the, yeah, you know what I mean? Go Google it. But it was brilliant. And actually, when we did it at Clarkemill, I actually sat down with somebody I knew and we just went in there because obviously it's very busy. It's basically the middle of a Um, conference kind of place, hall, um, and just sat and had a cup of tea and chatted and had the most, like, sensitive conversation. Like, you would want nobody to overhear that conversation, and we felt entirely comfortable even though we could see everyone else around us. Um, yeah, so I think if it is soundproofed, it could be a good idea. It does, of course, call into question why don't we just let people work from home on the days that they have this High-focus work. Um, but equally, you know, that's different, different thing. And we do know there's lots of research about this. Do go and check out Dr. Craig Knight, who's been on the show before. We actually talked about this from Clerkenwell Design Week about, um, design thinking and mental comfort and how aesthetics and autonomy can actually impact, um, our emotions and our job satisfaction. Um, so yeah, physical comfort is, is Unsurprisingly has a direct impact on our emotional comfort. So, um, so yeah, I'll leave a link to some studies if you're interested in the actual science of it. But there you go. That's our new word of the week, alonement.
Al ElliottAlonement. I like it. I definitely want— yeah, but we see nobody knows this, but apart from maybe my brother who's just been with us. Hello, Andy. Um, is that we're building a house, uh, next year or this year and next. And one of the major things we're building into that, into the office is A small space where you can go and take your laptop and just go and either work or just sit and watch YouTube or whatever it is. So yeah, we'll have an alonement space. We'll call it the alonement suite, even though it's just going to be a cupboard. Okay. All right. Well, these— I tell you what I saw this week, and this is one for all you hiring managers out there. I've been reading about Jeff Bezos, you know, off of Amazon now.
Leanne ElliottI've heard of him.
Al ElliottYeah. Sending, sending us, sending celebrities into space this week. They all seem to get a little bit overwhelmed when they came back to Earth after 18 minutes of being in the lower atmosphere. I think Katy Perry kissed the soil. She was like, oh my God, it's like, come on, love. It's not like you've been in space. Bit insensitive considering those people are in space for like 9 months. But anyway, that's enough. I kissed the earth and I liked it. That's a Katy Perry song. So Jeff Bezos, back to Jeff Bezos. He had an interview question when he was running the show at Amazon. Bit weird, but apparently brilliant according to psychology. Reading this in Inc. magazine, which would be my want? I will leave a link to that in the, in the show notes. So what is the question? The question is, are you a lucky person? Something which Taxi Driver, I think, first, first started back in about 1988. That's a weird reference for you. So the question is, are you a lucky person? That's it. It's not like brain teasers. It's not like, where do you see yourself in 5 years? It's just, do you consider yourself lucky? Now, you might be thinking Bezos was a bit woo back in the day, but actually there's some real smart thinking behind this.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBecause first off, it's a brilliant test for humility. Because if someone says, yeah, I've been pretty lucky in life, they're essentially admitting not everything they've achieved is down to them being brilliant and superhuman and just all-round awesome. They recognise that some of it was being in the right place at the right time. Warren Buffett calls it winning the ovarian lottery, I think, which is a slightly weird way of putting it, but you know, the fellow's worth billions, so. I think we better let him have one, have that one. Secondly, there's this really interesting psychological experiment. Psychology. I should know how to say that word, Lee, shouldn't I? Psychology experiment where researchers gave people a newspaper and asked them to count the pictures in the newspaper. The clever ones, this is according to the study, the clever one finished in seconds because on page 2 there was a massive box saying, this paper has 43 images, you can stop reading now. So the people who spotted this They tended to be the ones who described themselves as lucky, whereas everyone else just carried on just counting all of the, all the pictures. We should definitely go and read the study because it's really interesting because I think that some people who they interviewed afterwards, they saw the box even though they weren't counting all the things and counted all the pictures and carried on. They saw the box but assumed it was a bit of a trick. So basically what we call luck is actually being alert to opportunities, which is obviously pretty handy in the business world really.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo those people who saw themselves as lucky saw the box saying, you can stop now, there's 43, wrote down 43, went and had a cup of tea and won. The last thing I suppose about this study which is worth pointing out was that people who think they're lucky tend to be optimistic. And optimists, according to some research from the University of Pennsylvania, actually end up with better financial health than pessimists. So next time you're interviewing someone, maybe chuck in this Bezos classic, see what happens. Lee, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottDon't— bad advice. Don't do what I just said.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottNo, it's not. I mean, you shouldn't be including questions like this in your recruitment process. And, you know, because it— the whole point of asking a question is to, to assess somebody's suitability for a job or help you predict their future performance in a job. And that's going to be based on a job analysis. Um, so it's not exactly going to be linked to the job. You might want to include it in terms of kind of exploring personal attributes. And you're right, there is research that does show that optimism, which is a key part of our psychological capital along with hope, self-efficacy, and resilience, um, can predict better outcomes in terms of relationships, in terms of mental health potentially, in terms of work potentially. And all this is rooted in positive psychology, which yes, we— yes, Optimism and optimistic positive thinking is, is good for us and will probably help us succeed in all areas of our life, including work. But the problem is, and I think particularly with the, the example that you used about the box, so what they were saying is that lucky people found the box and then used that to finish the task quicker.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottIt's a bit, it's a bit, have we, if we, is that really the cause and effect going on here? I'm not sure in terms of linking that back to being lucky, because you also said, and I don't know whether this included the study or whether this is your just, your just little assessment of it, you said the intelligent people saw the box and then knew that that was the answer and they could finish the task. We know that general mental ability is the best predictor of future job performance. So it could just be that actually that exercise is identifying intelligence rather than somebody's perception of, of luck. The other problematic aspect of this question is that you are going to get people who aren't particularly lucky in terms of how they define that word, which might— they might look at it more as a privilege. I go, do you know what, I'm not particularly lucky actually. I was born into, you know, a tough background and school didn't always work out that well and blah blah blah. So am I lucky? No, but despite that, I've done X, Y, and Z. And that kind of shows what Adam Grant talks about in Hidden Potential, is that you're kind of measuring people from different start points. So if I graduate with a 2:1 from the University of Manchester, coming from a middle-class, two-parent family where I had a good education, some might say that was underperformance. Oh, it's okay, it's a 2:1, good. If somebody has come from a very poor background, haven't been encouraged in school, maybe got into trouble with the police in their early teens, managed to turn it around, go to university and get a 2:1 from Manchester University, they're probably showing a bit more resilience, a bit more, um, grit, whatever you want to call it, than I have, because they've achieved something that was even harder for them to achieve. So we're not comparing apples and apples, you know. Um, it's a lot more complicated. It massively oversimplifies. It can be an indicator of, of somebody's mindset. Yes. Should it be used to make hiring decisions? Absolutely freaking not. Um, and it's another example of one of these things from, you know, tech startup that gets drawn into by small businesses and they do it and it's hugely problematic for the talent they bring in and potentially the unlawful hiring practices they're engaging in. But that aside, it's a cute story, isn't it?
Al ElliottWell, how about this one as a different idea? This is another idea, not nothing to do with this article. I read it a few, a few months ago. Um, so a recruitment manager takes all of the people who've applied and then just goes through and counts 1, 2, 3, 4, and puts the 5th in the bin. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5th in the bin because he doesn't like unlucky people, and they're unlucky if they were number 5 on the row. Is that a valid way of recruiting?
Leanne ElliottIt's just nonsense.
Al ElliottI did honestly read that. I think it was someone in GE or something saying, I don't like unlucky people, and if they're unlucky enough to be in the bin, then they're not good enough to work for me.
Leanne ElliottAlright, God complex.
Al ElliottJust a quick one.
Leanne ElliottI have the power.
Al ElliottIt's a bit like the Gladiator, like, thumbs up. Yeah, they live. Am I not entertaining you? Anyway, just a quick one. Was that the quote? I haven't seen that film for years. Just a quick thought. If you do want to find out what's working right now in recruitment, then I have a very timely and essential resource for you. Our guest on Thursday is Nick Hubert, the sweaty startup guy. If you've not heard of him, you've probably seen him on Twitter. He's got like millions of people who follow him on Twitter, whatever. He's built businesses that do more than £30 million in annual revenue and he employs over 300 people. He's got a brand new book that I got a pre-release copy of, and it is brilliant. Rather than the same old, like, theory stuff, which I'm sorry, Leanne, but some of the stuff which I read just feels a bit theory heavy. Um, this one is really about how he properly built it, how he properly recruits great people, um, and exactly what he did to build his empire. Go and preorder his book, uh, Amazon, wherever you get your books. It's out next week. And tune in on Thursday because he's here and As you can probably tell, I'm fanboying a little bit because I've been following him for years. If you remember the Sweaty Startup from Reddit days, that's him. That's the guy.
Leanne ElliottI think that's enough fanboying for this week, Al. Shall we move on?
Al ElliottYes, probably best. What have you seen, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottI saw a study this week. It's a study from 20— is it '22 or '24? Maybe 2022. But it was new to me and I was very, very excited by the results. A study of 1 million employees found that one thing that great teams always have in common, and it's leadership. Ain't no surprise to you, that, is it, Al? If you do one thing—
Al ElliottTrain your managers.
Leanne ElliottExactly. So this was published in the Journal of Occupational Health Psychology, and the research pulled together 202 peer-reviewed studies from across, across industries and countries that covered nearly a million employees. This is called a meta-analysis. We enjoy meta-analyses. We like them. It's good.
Al ElliottAnal eye? No, that does— that's not really— you don't want to be talking about your anal eye, do you? Sorry, carry on. Meta-analysis. Analysis.
Leanne ElliottCarry on. So a million employees. So the focus, the focus of the research was what happens when you zoom out from the individual and look at actually how teams experience work as a whole. Um, so rather than focus on my individual levels of resilience or my level of positivity or intelligence, what happens if we look at things like leadership, workload, support, autonomy? And trust. The researchers only included studies that used what's called multi-level data, which basically means that employees were studied within real teams or departments, not just individuals in isolation, which is even better because we're actually getting some kind of real-life team examples. They then looked at how team-wide conditions affected 3 outcomes. Number 1, productivity, so performance, efficiency, service quality. Number 2, health, psychological and physical, and work-related wellbeing. So that's employee engagement, job satisfaction, commitment. And the results were really pretty convincing. Leadership was the most consistent positive influencer across all outcomes, and strong, ethical, supportive leaders— so servant leadership or high-trust relationships— made a measurable difference. These teams didn't just feel better, they performed better. Other resources mattered too. So teams with clear roles, learning opportunities, and mutual support saw higher engagement and output. But uncertainty, like unclear expectations, unstable roles, were consistently damaging. Interestingly, workload wasn't always the villain. High workloads only became a problem when teams lacked the structure and support to handle them. So in the right environment, people were willing to stretch as long as they felt trusted and backed. So, Al, convincing research, a sample of 1 million. If the conditions around a team can make or break performance and leadership is the biggest lever, why in the name of RuPaul Charles do so many businesses still treat it like a soft skill rather than a strategic priority Or worse, not even train their managers at all.
Al ElliottBecause they're freaking idiots who don't listen to you. That's why. If you're listening to this, and if you listen to this, you probably believe train your managers, you probably believe it. But if, if on the off chance you are listening to this and going, yeah, look, you know, we'll sort out the engagement first, then we're gonna get onto the management, or we'll sort out recruitment first, then we'll go into engagement, and then we'll sort out the management part of everything. You're doing it wrong. You're doing it arse about face. You need to start with the management. Then work on your engagement, and then only then, when you've got great managers and a great engagement, as in everyone loves them and they're all on that, that metaphoric boat rowing the right way, then you can start bringing new people in. Don't, don't try and fix it.
Leanne ElliottIt's—
Al ElliottI've got loads of analogies around sales and marketing. I won't go into that because I always bring them up. But yeah, I, I'm a believer. I am a believer, Leanne, and I am 100% behind you with the, um, with the training management. If, just as a quick aside, if you, if you are interested in teams, Then we had an episode last week with the amazing James Hawkins from PostHog, which— and he has teams of 2 to 6 people. He's got about 180 people across his organisation and they're all broken into teams of 2 to 6 and they just work on one thing. And there's like an entire, like, little mini company in there. Do you remember, Leanne, from the interview, was there anything that you saw in this study that James was doing that you went, oh yeah, that feeds into this, this interview? I'm putting you on the spot here.
Leanne ElliottTrust was a big thing. Autonomy. So yeah, and, and, and I think the structured support— so James talked a lot about kind of, I'm gonna make this change, but this is the channel to tell me what's wrong with that.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, so yeah, having that, that influence is important. I think another really cool takeaway from this, if you're, if you're a small business owner who's listening and has team members, or even a manager, a middle manager, and has a team that's starting to to moan a little bit about workload and how high the workload is, and there's nothing you can do about that workload, then it might be worth looking at, well, what can I do to either give you more clarity over your role, the expectations in terms of performance, the support that I'm providing, that can actually, as this study showed, alleviate the negative impacts of a high workload. So if you can't do anything about the load, Maybe look at something you can do about the wraparound support you're providing for your team.
Al ElliottFabulous. I love it when you explain what the surveys and the research does, because like META, I'd never heard of that. I'd never heard of this multi-level data. That's cool. There's another word, longitude. So just tell me again what longitudinal research means.
Leanne ElliottLongitudinal means over a long period of time. So the most famous will be the Harvard study on happiness, which has been going for like 80 years. It's a longitudinal study. So longitudinal studies will typically mean we'll see if— we'll see how behaviour is over time, which is going to be typically more reliable, particularly if there's other things that might influence behaviour, um, which it would over 80 years in terms of economic crisis and etc., etc.
Al ElliottChrist's eye.
Leanne ElliottChrist's eye. We can confidently say that relationships are the biggest predictor of happiness because we've measured lots of people over a long period of time with lots of different influences in that. has stayed consistent, which is why longitudinal studies are pretty good.
Al ElliottIf you're listening to this and you think, wow, Leanne's amazing, yes, she is. Go into the show notes, send her an email. First of all, tell her she's amazing. And secondly, see if she'll work with you. You should go and do that because you need Leanne in your organisation. Anyway, talking of needing people, you might need a little break after our— after Anal Eye. So after this very short break, I don't know why I brought it up again. Dunno. After this, after this very short break, we're gonna be back with a hot take from the amazing Cass Briscoe, who thinks that if you're overwhelmed, then you fundamentally Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast—
Leanne Elliottthat's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that It encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. As regular listeners will know, every week we ask a workplace expert for their hot take on the world of work. Our hot take this week comes from someone who's on a mission to make work feel better, quite literally. Cass Briscoe is the founder of Soft Work Society, a community focused on banishing burnout and creating more human workplace cultures. She's worked as a workplace experience lead ahead of Vibes and now partners with organizations like The Future Kind, Confidence Live, and Neuroworks, all with one goal: to make work more sustainable, more inclusive, and a lot less soul-crushing. In this hot take, Cass challenges the cult of busyness and asks the question many of us have been avoiding: If being overwhelmed is your default setting, is it time to rethink what you're actually working for? Let's hear from Cass. My hot take is that being busy isn't a personality and it's not a badge of honour and it's not something that we should be striving for or being proud of. And yeah, it's just, we shouldn't be glorifying being busy. I think it's really toxic.
Al ElliottNow, I agree because one of my What I started doing about 5 years ago, maybe even 10 years ago, was someone said, how's things? Are you busy? And I used to go, no, not really, because that's the opposite of what people expected you to say. You go to a networking event and you go, how's things? Oh, it's hectic at the moment. And you think, like you say, is it a badge of honor? Is it them just trying to say how important they are? Talk, talk to me. Why? Let's get into the nitty-gritty. Why is it a toxic trait?
Leanne ElliottIt's not a personality. Being busy is not a personality, and often it's just like a socially acceptable way to be overwhelmed. And I think for a lot of people, whether you're in an employed role or whether you're self-employed like me, it's this idea that you have to be perceived to be busy all the time, whether that's because you're in a role and you're trying to go for promotion maybe, or even you're worried that you're going to lose your job. So you're trying to, if you're in a company that's having a lot of layoffs or an industry that's having a lot of layoffs, you feel like you've got to be performatively busy all the time so that you don't get laid off. And if you work for yourself like I do, it's, it's actually very toxic out there with people self-promoting, feeling like having to be posting all the time on like LinkedIn and Instagram about what you're doing, how busy you are, because it feels like you're not succeeding if you don't do that. But actually a lot of it is performative and it's not doing you any good as an individual. I think you just have to think about what's meaningful. And what's real versus what's performative and just like filling space. Um, and thinking about, you know, if I'm doing something, does it serve me? Does it need to be me that does this? Uh, or could it be somebody else? Um, and just thinking, basically defaulting to no when you're asked to do things, unless it's like a, you know, a hell yes. Um, so rather than just Yes to everything. Yes, because people are asking you to do things and you feel like you have to be on and say yes all the time. Try to get really comfortable and practice saying like, let me get back to you. And then thinking about it through the lens of like, is this going to serve me overall? And it's not just about, you know, is this gonna keep me really busy all the time? Is this what I need to be seen to be doing? Like, do I want to be doing this? Is it gonna bring back any value for me? Because quite often in jobs, you know, obviously you're asked to do things that you, we're all asked to do things in our job that we don't particularly want to do. And I'm not necessarily talking about those things. I'm talking about going above and beyond your role when you don't want to be doing that, like staying late when you don't want to, or because you can't, but feeling like you have to, or like taking on extra projects that you don't really have capacity for that are outside of your job role because you feel like you have to go above and beyond to demonstrate that you're worthy and that you're valuable. But you are already worthy and valuable because you're in that role. You don't need to prove that you need to be there. And I think a lot of it stems from, for me personally, I've been there. I've been that person where I'm like in a job and I'm completely burnt out because I'm just taking on everything and saying yes to everything. And it's something that I still struggle with now. But, and a lot of it stems from like low self-esteem and, you know, that anxiety of feeling like you have to be constantly clawing your way up the career ladder. Or you have to constantly be getting promoted. Whereas I think oftentimes people just need to take a step back and be like, am I happy where I am? Do I need to be going for that promotion? Do I need to be going for that pay rise? Do I need to be going for that other job? Or is work just one small part of my life that slots into the rest of my life?
Al ElliottSo, we've said there, you've identified there's people who say they're busy because they want to look busy because they've got Either low self-esteem or they feel that that's the way to do it. Then there's the people who are busy because they've got no choice because they have to work 3 jobs. Now, obviously, you've explained very eloquently what the situation with those, but I feel there's a third group of people who are busy because they've got a fear of missing out. That if they don't take this new project on, if they don't, um, like build an AI agent now, then in 2 years' time, the opportunity is gone.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWhat would you say to those people?
Leanne ElliottLook, if it's something that is really important to you and you're very passionate about, that's fine. But I think you need to take that step back and think, is this something that really is going to serve me? Or am I just doing it because I'm feeling like the external pressure? So, you know, I think a lot of people do this with like side hustles. They've got a job. And actually, this is, this is the point I was going to make before, um, with the cost of living crisis. Uh, some people are having to take on extra jobs or create side hustles. And like, if you're— I've fallen onto the side of like TikTok where you scroll and it's like, I make £20,000 extra a month with this like digital product, tell me how. And it's like, well, if you're making £20,000 a month, why do you have to keep coming on here to prove it anyway? But I feel a lot of people fall for that and they're like, we have to like monetize our spare time. So it's not enough that, you know, we're working all the time. We have to like monetize every spare moment that we have. And for people who really are like, oh God, we're feeling this external pressure and we need to create the next AI whatever because AI is the thing. I just, I would say if it's something that really like lights your fire and floats your boat, that's one thing because it's got 2 different values. But if all you're doing it for is because you feel like you need to compete or because, you know, you're trying to monetize it, then I think you're just gonna end up burnt out because if you're not If it's not something that's, that, you know, lights your fire, then eventually it's going to become a problem. I mean, when I first started working for myself 2 years ago, uh, I'd suggest everything because I had that fear. I had that fear of disappointing. I had that people-pleasing thing. And when you're trying to get a business off the ground, you're like, I have to say yes to everything because what if the opportunities dry up? Or like, what if people don't want me? Um, so I would say yes to everything. And I got into, you know, a couple of situations where I ended up working with people that weren't really like a fit. Yeah. Or like, they were perfectly nice people, but like perhaps the work they were doing wasn't super relevant to what I wanted to do, or I was working a lot more than I wanted to. And look, everyone says this who works for themselves. The reason I started working for myself is so that I could choose my hours and, you know, not work as much, basically. And somehow I ended up working 10 times more, which I think is like a very common freelancer trap that happens. So I was saying yes to everything then. Now I try and sort of filter requests through like this lens of like, does it align with my priorities? Is it something I'm going to feel resentful about later? And if my schedule was already full, would I still say yes to it? And, you know, an opportunity can give you either like money, like good money, or it can open doors, or it can be something that you're really interested in and want to learn about. And I think if it doesn't hit 2 of those 3 things, It's not worth your time. Because quite often, and I think if you start to view stuff through that lens, you realize that a lot of requests that come in don't meet even one of those things, never mind 2 of the 3.
Al ElliottI believe you've got a t-shirt which says something like, boundaries are hot. That's right.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Go on my website, buy my t-shirt. So I'm a big believer in the idea of setting boundaries, whether that's small boundaries like Someone messages you at 6 o'clock when you're about to log off saying, oh, can you just quickly do this thing? Again, I think for a lot of people, there's that instant need to be like, yes, absolutely, I'll do that. I was going to log off, but like, never mind, I'll just quickly do that now. When oftentimes there's no need, like that person's asking you, but you don't have to work. You'd have to dance to their tune. You don't have to work to someone else's timeline. So small boundaries, like saying, Great. I'll get on this, you know, tomorrow morning.
Al ElliottBravo. Bravo, Cass. I've been talking about, and I know I interviewed you and we geeked out a little bit about this. I've been talking about this for years. One of my pet hates is when you say to someone, hey, how are you? How's work? And they go, oh my God, I'm just so busy. And I'm like, number one, don't be a dick. Oh, it's just, you're basically wanting me to go, oh my God, you must be so important. And number 2, if you're busy at work and you don't like it, do something about it if you can, you know, and if you can't, then don't just be flippant about it. Go say, oh, I'm so busy. I just, I love how, how Cass is basically saying that constant hustle is not a badge of honour. It's actually a red flag. This is, this is what I believe in. Leanne believes in research. Leanne believes in training your leaders. I believe in, you should, you should genuinely, work should energise you most of the time. We all have stuff we don't want to do.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBut it should energize you most of the time. And so by saying that you are constantly overloaded or feeling constantly overloaded or saying you're busy, I don't know, I just feel like thoughts become feelings and all that kind of thing. And by saying, I am so busy, I haven't got time to have my lunch, you are basically telling yourself psychologically, not psychologically, deep down, subconsciously is the word, that you are busy, you haven't got time for lunch, and that something's gone wrong. Anyway, that soapbox dismounting.
Leanne ElliottLeanne. You're right though. And it is this, it's, it's kind of the slogan of hustle culture, isn't it? You're busy. Yeah, I'm really busy. It's funny when people say to me and Al, are you busy? We go, not really, no. And they go, what? We're busy enough. We're, you know, anyway, um, what is quite interesting, I guess, from a, from some kind of the research perspective, because you might be thinking, well, I am busy and I like being busy, back off.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottOkay. But just so you know that there are some studies that have shown that people who are in high-demand, low control jobs, so you haven't got that autonomy, but you've got a lot of expectation, are more likely to overcompensate through workload. I would also argue, given the kind of work-life boundaries that are so blurred now, you might be overcompensating through overwork in other areas of your life because maybe you've got either low autonomy, low control, or I guess even, even low demands. The other thing as well, I guess, is that sometimes it can be It can be so ingrained with this generation, and particularly Gen X, right? Because Gen X kind of had the boomers, um, you know, as, as their parents, and quite rightly, there's lots of opportunity, and there was such an opportunity for social change by, by doing well work-wise, um, that there was this big emphasis on, on you hustle, you keep working hard. Um, it's that fear of letting people down, even if your parents are no longer here. It's that fear of letting yourself down. You completely internalize that expectation, that, that fear is, is probably what's most likely going to drive you to burnout, not ambition. And it's really kind of having that self-reflection, introspection moment to go, is this, is this from a point of fear or a point of ambition? And my feeling is it's from a point of fear, which is why we're also seeing a lot of Gen Xs now talk more openly about how they want to have their second act. of their career, find more meaningful work that resonates with them. So, just a little, another point of reflection if you are, if you believe that you enjoy being busy. Yeah.
Al ElliottAnd a final thought on this fear. I think there are some people out there who are just people pleasers, and the fear is that if they say no to something, people won't like them. And that generally leads to a to-do list that is never-ending because they take on work going, yeah, yeah, it's fine. I can do that. Yeah, no worries. I can do that because they worry that if they say, No, I can't do it, or no, I won't do it, people are gonna think, who's that? You know, Amanda in accounts has gone a bit arsey, hasn't she? She's suddenly decided. I know that's not something you can change overnight, but that is something to be aware of. If you are a people pleaser in your life, then there's probably a very good chance that your to-do list is a lot longer than ours.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you are a people pleaser, it's really hard to say no. So maybe go with not yet. Remember that power word that we talked about the other week? So it's like, can you help me with this? Oh, not yet, but I can tomorrow when I've got some extra time in the afternoon. Um, that's sometimes a really nice way to transition from being an absolute people pleaser to starting to, to set some more boundaries and hopefully then get to the point where you can just say no if you don't want to do it.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Absolutely. Don't let someone else's to-do list become your to-do list. And in fact, I often look at emails as when you open your inbox, it's someone else's to-do list. They've sent you an email and usually it's because they want you to do something or they're asking you to do something because they want it.
Leanne ElliottLee!
Al ElliottAre we ready to move on to the surgery, or anything else the listeners need to know about Cass?
Leanne ElliottUm, just as a big thank you to Cass, we will leave a link to her website and her LinkedIn profile in the show notes. Go, go follow, go buy her t-shirt. I know I want one.
Al ElliottYeah, she's a, she's a cool lady. Yes, definitely go and follow her. Okay, this is my favourite time of the week. This is the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to the lovely Leanne. She's amazing. She knows everything. She always says she doesn't, but she does, because whenever I put anything to you, like I was like, I genuinely thought that, that lucky question, I mean, I thought, that's a clever way of doing it. I might do that. And then Leanne's like, no, don't do that, Al. Don't. Okay, so question number 1, and this person has written in, they've said, 6 interviews and then a pay cut. Hmm, interesting. I just went through 6 rounds of interview for a grad role, and this graduate role that was advertised at £35,000. It was my first full-time job out of university, and I worked hard to prepare. I thought the interviews went really well. When the offer finally came through, it was for £30,000, not £35,000. I really want the job though. The people seem really great. The benefits are good, and it's hybrid with 2 days in the office. It's a dream, and I feel like I'd actually learn something there, but I couldn't ignore the salary difference, so I asked the recruiter about it. A few hours later, I got a call from someone I know in the company, and they said— this is the same person who helped me get the company.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al Elliottget the interview in the first place, and he told me I'd done a great job, but that the recruiter had taken the question about the salary difference very, very personally. Apparently, if I didn't have an internal connection, this person, they might have pulled the offer altogether. In the end, I accepted the job. I'm excited, and I know £30K is still a good salary for a first-time job, but part of me keeps wondering, did I make a mistake by asking this in the first place, or is this just how things work sometimes?
Leanne ElliottI don't think they made a mistake by asking. I think that's more than fair. If a— I mean, one, good for the company that they're advertising the salary. We enjoy that pay transparency. But then to adjust it and not expect a question is just silly. So, good for you. You're well within your rights to ask about that, even just from a point of view, can I understand why the offer's at £30,000 when it was advertised at £35,000? Is there maybe something missing in my experience? Or, you know.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, it's, it's quite uncool of the recruiter to react like this and bordering on unprofessional if they're reacting in a way that this person who referred you to the business is now getting wind of it to tell you. You didn't say if that recruiter works for the company. They could be a third-party recruiter, in which case they might be bonused on how they maybe bring in a candidate for a lesser salary, get some percentage of the difference, or Or even just get, you know, a nice tick against their name of, um, as a recruiter with that client, which means they might get more roles in the future. So if they're a third party, eh. If they're internal, yes, this could be a bit of a red flag because what it's showing is how people behave, how they react when they're challenged. In this example, not behaving and reacting very well. Um, particularly to give that threatening language of, oh, well, you know, we would have pulled it all. Anyway, if you wouldn't have been connected to the company. I don't think any company is going to hire somebody for a job who isn't qualified or qualified enough to be developed, and particularly in a grad role. That's all you really need to prove is that you've got huge amounts of potential to be developed through the grad scheme. So, it is uncool. Equally, you're excited about the job, you're excited about the people, it's hybrid, excellent. £30,000 is a good salary.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottfor your first job out of uni. I think, yeah, you've got to do what you can. It sounds like you have anyway, to kind of move on and look forward into the future and into this role. What I would say is that, um, you are right to ask. Never be afraid to ask about salary and have that, um, conversation. Um, 2, it's not how things necessarily work in terms of how the person reacted to it. It probably is how things work in terms of You know, salary negotiation, which is frustrating, but part of the current working way. And third, I would just maybe be a little bit cautious because what this might show is maybe potential— a red flag in terms of a lack of trust, things being changed without any real reason, potentially lack of transparency. I would just make little notes as you go through anything else like this that you notice, any other behaviours.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, that happen, just to keep yourself a little record, if only to help you distinguish between what is normal and abnormal, or what, you know, the consistency and frequency of it. So you can, you can talk to a mentor or a friend or, um, to kind of get their view on it as well. And just accept that if this behaviour does come up again and again, in 6 months' time, that might start to shift your perception and view and feelings towards this organisation. So, there's an element of being prepared for that if it happens, not in a, oh, I knew I shouldn't have taken the job, but I was aware this was a risk. I thought it might be coming. I'm not too overly disappointed. I've still, you know, learned lots of stuff and got what I needed out of my first job. And when the time is right, and I'd say you want to be in that job probably at least 18 months without raising a red flag of another recruiter, then it might be time to look around and move on. But in the meantime, congratulations. It sounds like a really great opportunity.
Al ElliottThank you.
Leanne ElliottAnd fingers crossed this was a third-party recruiter and not a reflection of the organisation.
Al ElliottCould just be a reflection of the recruiter person. Maybe the recruiter person's had a bit of a tough week. Plot twist. What about if this didn't happen at all and the person inside the organisation, your friend who's helping you, just wants to feel really important? And so they want you to fall in love with them and go, oh my God, thank you so much for saving it, when in actual fact none of that actually happened. Yeah, there's a thought. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottHow well do you know this person?
Al ElliottYeah, maybe they're a little bit of a What do they, what do the kids call them now? Snakes.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYour friend's a snake. There you go. That's, that's the headline right there. No, I'm sure it's, I'm sure they're not. I'm sure they're lovely, but maybe they're not. Okay. Question number 2. I don't hate my job. I hate the whole job thing. So I think we've all been there. For years, I thought I just hadn't found the right company or the right role, but now I'm not so sure. What really gets to me is the idea of spending most of my time, week in, week out, doing something I just don't care about just to survive. I look ahead and think, is this it? 40, maybe 50 years of planning my life around work, squeezing in the things I actually want to do around someone else's schedule. Is this it? Is this what I need to do? I don't want to live for weekends. I don't want my best energy to go to a job I don't love. But I also don't want to throw away a stable career path. Maybe this is just me being idealistic. So tell me straight, am I being an entitled Gen Z person who— that everyone always talks about? Or is there a better way to work that doesn't mean sacrificing your whole life for a payslip? I like this question. I think this person is destined for good things because they're questioning, and that's what you want out of an employee or a business owner or possibly leader. Anyway, Lee, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottI remember waking up in my early 20s when I was a couple of years into work and thinking, is this it? Really? Same. I couldn't imagine being that bound to a workplace for, you know, 45 hours a week. I couldn't imagine only having 20 holidays a year, which is going to sound very privileged to our American listeners who only have 10.
Al ElliottRub it in.
Leanne ElliottYeah, sorry about that.
Al ElliottUs lazy Europeans. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, I, no, you're not, you're not unreasonable to question this. You're, you're not unreasonable to, to hope and think there's another way. And there absolutely is another way. There's a few things I think you can do to kind of transition this. And I'll kind of start from like least disruptive to most disruptive. The first one is, have you really thought about the work you want to do? And I bring up this example all the time, but the VITALS model. What are your values? What are your interests? What's your temperament? What time of day do you prefer to work? How would you like to structure your day? What are your life goals? What are your strengths? Really understanding yourself and what motivates you and interests you is going to help you identify both the role that you want to do and the organisation you want to do it in. If you have done that and it's still not clicking, then There absolutely is other options. The trouble is there's not many other options that come with a stable career path. This, this is the slight problem that we have. Unless you can find a potentially remote company that doesn't care where you work and you can travel as you work, which we did very happily for 7 years, um, then that could work. But that is a needle in a haystack in these times.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYou can start your own business. You can go freelance. You can be self-employed. You can have absolute control over your work, your time, where you work, how you work, who you work for. And that will no doubt give you the freedom you're looking for, the flexibility you're looking for, the purpose and meaning that you're looking for. Does that provide a stable career plan? No, it does not. It's like that, you know, what was it, Al, that, is it based on kind of famous?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIs it a parable, like a story? No, the dog. Oh, so one dog.
Al ElliottYeah, so I think it's an Aesop fable, or Aesop. I've only ever seen it written down. Don't know how you say it, but Aesop fable. There's 2 dogs and they're talking as they do in these, in Aesop's fables. And one of them was saying, isn't it amazing because you can just roam the streets and you can do whatever you want. You could, you wake up in the morning and you're like, oh, I'm gonna just do whatever I want today. And the, and the dog that was be— that was free, not behind the gate, was saying, Yes, but I don't know where my next meal's coming from. It's amazing. You've got an amazing life because you can just, you just every night, every night you get a huge big bone and you get loads of meat. Your life's better. And the whole point of the whole thing was, which by the way, sorry, Aesop, if you're listening and you're, you haven't, you didn't, you didn't die 400 years ago, um, then I've made a right hash of that. But essentially what it's saying is that both of them admired each other's life, but they both had sacrifices. Both had problems in their life. Did that help in any way at all, listener and Leanne?
Leanne ElliottKind of. I think the point is like one dog's wearing a collar, one dog And one has, yeah, you get the gist of it. I think the point is, it's not a question of the grass, is the grass greener on the other side? It's just a different shade of green.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYou know? So, I think it's at this point deciding, and if you're, it sounds like you said you're a Gen Z, go take risks, go be crazy. You've got so much runway in your career, you can afford to mess it up a bit and then go, actually, do you know what? A steady career path in an incoming salary every month is worth it. You've just got to figure out what it is. And it's, you know, people often say to us, oh, you're so lucky, or I wish I could do what you did. And it's like, I'm not, and you can. But the fact is, I'm not as far ahead in my career as a lot of my other peers.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottI don't think I'm getting paid as much as a lot of my other peers. I get a lot more autonomy over holidays and where I spend my time. Um, you know, I get to do the work that I love in a way that I want to do it. I get to work with people who inspire me and not work for an absolute knob. There's lots of great things that come with being freelance or self-employed, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of risk. There's a lot of sacrifice. There's a lot of nervousness. There's a lot of financial uncertainty. It's, it's which one is, is gonna Which is a compromise you're willing to, um, you know, to take. It's, it's up to you, but you're at a point of time in your, in your life and in your career where you've got the time to figure it out. So I would go, if you're thinking, is this it? Go out there and see if it is.
Al ElliottYeah, 100%. You got, you Gen Zs love a side hustle. So, uh, start something else. Just my only tip would be don't start something that's your passion. So if you love making cake, baking cakes, Don't start a business around that because then you're gonna have to bake cakes all day long, even when you don't want to, and you'll end up hating it. But I feel like this must be like, there's a triangle saying, uh, good, saying good, fast, or cheap. Choose any 2 if you like, when you're working with consultants or suppliers or whatever. And I feel like we've got the makings of one here, which is sort of like, um, certainty, freedom, and, um, meaning perhaps. And you can really only choose 2 of those because you can't have A, well, some, some people manage it, but most people have a job. If you have, if you have certainty, you also then have to accept that you've got responsibility and you've got a boss. You go and work for yourself. Oh my God, it's amazing. But as Al from 2006 will tell you, when he went bankrupt for £103,000, it ain't always that good.
Leanne ElliottBut good luck to you. Um, and yeah, I would say definitely take some time to understand exactly what it is that that you think you want or what's important to you, and then, and then go play. You've got time.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So, this last question comes from a listener who writes, can managers have mates? Just in case, mate is a UK thing or an Australian thing as well. It doesn't mean like mate as in like mate for life. It means like friends. Just, just to be clear for our, for our North American listeners. So, I have been invited to a game night with about 10 of my coworkers, but here's the catch. Half of them directly report to me. We got on really well, and outside of work, we've become really friendly. But I'm also trying to move up in the company, and I was worried how it might look if I start socialising with my team outside work. There's nothing in the handbook about it, but I know my own manager has said that she avoids hanging out with staff because of the conflict of interest concerns. I don't want to seem aloof, but I also don't want to blur professional lines or risk risk looking like I'm playing favourites. So here's my question. Should I sit this one out, or is there a way to join without crossing boundaries? Leanne?
Leanne ElliottThis is a tricky one, and I've seen different managers handle it in different ways. Me personally, I kept a distance and I never went to any social event that wasn't work organised or related. So if this was a games night, Organised by the company as a team-building exercise, then of course you go. This is a social thing. On one hand, it's really nice that your teammates like you enough to invite you as their manager, or they're just being polite, but either way, it's nice that they either have that admiration or that respect for you. I've seen managers do it. I've seen managers who can engage very well in social relationships and maintain professionalism and hold that line. Um, you know, very steady in work environments. I, my struggle was always that I'm, I find it hard to set a boundary in social situations in that if a member of my team would start telling me things that might impact their ability to work or their effectiveness at work or the support they need from me in a social setting, I'd find it really difficult to shut that off because.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThat might be the only point that they feel comfortable telling me, and if I don't give them that space and hold that space for them, then they'll never bring it up again, or it might be inappropriate for me to bring it up again. I always found that really awkward. So then for me, in social situations, when I, when I tried, it quickly became basically an informal venting session, um, which then also changed how I approached one-to-ones in, in work situations and more regular check-ins with people. But for me, I felt it blurred lines. I think your manager has also shared with you the expectations that have kind of been set within the organisation, even if it isn't in the handbook, that there could be a conflict of interest. I kind of agree with it. So, it's not to say that as a manager you can't have mates, but it is to say as a manager you might need to just set some boundaries that will work for you. But I think as a new manager, my advice would be.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSet some fairly clear boundaries. That's a very clear boundary, not going to a social event that's not work-related or organised for work, and then work from there. So, I ended up setting quite hard boundaries in a way that I often wouldn't go to social events that were mainly team-orientated rather than kind of for, you know, like the Christmas do kind of thing. Like, I'd go for an hour and then I'd do one because again, these boundaries get all blurry.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottIt's, it's, it's completely up to you. It sounds like a discretionary thing. We know lots, we talked lots recently about, um, the Primark CEO, um, from Enya Doyle, about how these relationships can get really blurry between work, um, and social. So sometimes it's just easier and safer to keep a firmer line. But in this case, I would personally think it's not worth engaging in social events that aren't work-related in any way. And in the meantime, try and figure out exactly where your kind of more work-based socialising boundaries lie.
Al ElliottSo, quick question, Leanne, then. What would a good manager's response to that be? Would it be, I'm sorry, I can't make it this time? Would it be, I'm sorry, I'm not coming to any of these ever? How would you tactfully respond to that?
Leanne ElliottI just say, I'm sorry, I can't make it, but I think you have a great time. Oh, do you know what? It'd be really cool if we did a games night for like as a work thing, as a team building thing. Maybe we could organize that in a couple months' time. I think the first thing you just say, I'm sorry, I can't make it, but I hope you have a brilliant time. Thank you so much for asking me. Um, if they continue to ask you, then yeah, you might want to say— particularly if it's one person that keeps asking you, is it that one person that maybe you've been friends with for a little while or who knows you quite well? Just saying, look, I'm not sure I want to kind of really cross that line in terms of socialising, um, when it's not work-related. But equally, I'd love to spend time with people. Maybe we can arrange it as a more work-related activity. But I think in the first instance, I just say, that's really kind, thank you so much for asking me for a meal, but I can't make it.
Al ElliottNow, my temptation would be to say that and then go, but here's 20 quid towards a takeout. That's not a good idea, no?
Leanne ElliottI just think, again, it's, it's what's, what, to what end, what purpose?
Al ElliottMy thought, maybe it's my neediness coming through, like I was saying before about Cass. Not Cass is needy, what Cass was saying, uh, was that, uh, I'd be like, oh, I'll be nice because then they're sitting there and they're having like, um, you know, um, curry or something or some pizza and they're thinking, oh, Al sorted this out. But that's probably just my insecurity, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottAnd hoping that your team will perceive that in a positive way. What if your team sits there and thinks, oh, do you think he's gonna have to ask us to work late on Tuesday. Oh, I never thought of that. Oh, is he going to expect this from us now? Um, and again, I just— again, it's, it's applying— it's bringing a professional relationship into the social realm. And that's awkward enough when it's work-related, but when it's completely irrelevant to work, then I just think don't engage. It's a different thing if like you're, you know, you're Christmas due and you put £100 behind the bar. Um, then that's a bit different. Or you pay for everyone's taxis there and back, or That's a bit different. But if it's completely social situation, I just don't see why you have any business getting involved.
Al ElliottFair enough. Fair enough. See, listen, I'm listening. I'm learning too. I'm learning. Okay. Well, I think that's all for now. You need to join us next Tuesday if you've liked today, because we've got a new edition of This Week in Work. And also, as I say, I say in the last couple of weeks, have a look at our YouTube channel. Leanne's been doing all kinds of lovely stuff over there, chopping up videos. So Workplace Surgery now has its own dedicated videos, I think. Uh, lots of little sort of like 6 to 8 minute videos you can just binge on, hopefully. Um, and, uh, yeah, if you, if, if you like it, then let us know. If you don't like it, let us know too. Um, and yeah, because, because it's, it's, it's a new thing we're doing and we think that it's going down well, but obviously, you know, we're, we're keen on everyone's opinion.
Leanne ElliottWe really are. If you are also keen on hearing stories of how people do things differently, then you'll really like our Thursday episodes where we have an interview With, um, an expert guest this week is the man, the myth, the legend, the professional troller on Twitter, Nick Huber, the Sweaty Startup Guy. Nick has built businesses that do more than $30 million in annual revenue and employ over 325 people. Plus, he recently bought a controlling share in somewhere.com, the recruitment company that helped over 3,500 businesses hire more than 6,000 remote workers.
Al ElliottAnd he's also got a multitude of other businesses, including self-storage, real estate cost consultants, an SEO company, a pest control business, an insurance company, web dev, and all loads and loads and more. Nick really knows how to recruit and engage and manage the very best people in the world. So firstly, make sure you subscribe so you get Nick's interview automatically downloaded to your podcast app. And secondly, consider pre-ordering his book, The Sweaty Startup. Uh, it's out, I think, if you're listening today on Tuesday the 18th.
Leanne Elliott19th.
Al ElliottNo, Tuesday the 22nd. It's out next Tuesday. Um, you can get it from Amazon and all that kind of stuff. I read, I got a, I got a pre-release book. I read it. It's genuinely one of the best business books I've read in the last 5 years. I think you're gonna love it.
Leanne ElliottI, I'm sure you will. I'm sure it's gonna be an interesting conversation. And as Al said to the, the people in the, um, surgery who have questions that kind of link into this, um, do join us for an alternative view on what work can look like when we speak to Nick on Thursday. Until then, um, I hope your first day back at work is all right. Um, it's the first Tuesday back after the Easter break, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah, but do, do the, um, does America have like Good Friday?
Leanne ElliottI doubt they have any holidays at all, do they?
Al ElliottOh man, if you live in America, come and live in Europe.
Leanne ElliottFor our British friends, I hope your first day back at work was okay. I hope you enjoyed the bank holiday weekend. Um, if you're a parent, just one more week left and those, those kids will be back in school. Um, and yeah, stay in touch, subscribe, LinkedIn, See you there.
Al ElliottBye. Bye-bye.