Episode 216 · 22 July 2025 · 55:27
The intruder paradox, hiring extremes and return-to-office pressure. PLUS! Should you ever admit you’re planning to quit? With Becky Simms
Featuring Becky Simms
The intruder paradox, hiring extremes and return-to-office pressure. PLUS! Should you ever admit you’re planning to quit? With Becky Simms
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The intruder paradox: reframing imposter syndrome as a workplace problem
news roundup#imposter-syndrome#workplace-culture#mental-health
Hiring A-players: tough love or recruitment theatre?
news roundup#hiring#recruitment#talent-acquisition
Return-to-office mandates are harming wellbeing before they're even enforced
news roundup#return-to-office#wellbeing#hybrid-work
Stories We Don't Have Time For: the Coldplay gig boss
news roundup#workplace-stories#management#leadership
Hot Take with Becky Simms: Should you talk openly about quitting?
hot take#quitting#career-advice#hot-take
Workplace Surgery Q1: Resolving deadlock after a serious complaint
workplace surgery#workplace-conflict#hr#complaint-resolution
Workplace Surgery Q2: Best recruitment tools for small businesses
workplace surgery#recruitment-tools#small-business#hiring
Workplace Surgery Q3: Bank holiday leave with compressed hours
workplace surgery#bank-holiday#compressed-hours#leave-policy
Wrap-up and summer plans
news roundup#podcast-wrap-up#summer#hr
Show notes
The Intruder Paradox, Hiring Extremes & Return-to-Office Pressure — with Becky Simms
Guest: Becky Simms — founder of the Human First Collective, a group of agencies putting humans at the centre of work, and founder of Reflect Digital.
Is imposter syndrome really a confidence problem — or a workplace one? New research suggests it might be your environment, not your mindset, that's making you feel like an outsider. And that's just the first story.
Al and Leanne dig into the "intruder paradox," unpack a viral hiring post that promises A-players through tough-love recruitment theatre, and explore why the mere threat of return-to-office mandates is denting UK worker wellbeing.
Then, in the Hot Take, Becky Simms joins to tackle the workplace conversation nobody wants to have: should you ever admit you're planning to quit? Her answer might surprise you — and it could be the secret to better retention, stronger trust, and less awkward exits.
Plus, in the Workplace Surgery, experts from The Curve Group tackle three listener dilemmas: mediating a deadlock after a serious complaint, whether job boards are still worth it for small businesses, and how bank holidays work for compressed hours.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. The intruder paradox: is imposter syndrome actually a workplace problem?
New research suggests imposter syndrome might not be a confidence issue at all — it could be an inclusion issue. The "intruder paradox" argues that workplace structures, not internal self-doubt, can make people feel like outsiders. It's not "I'm not good enough" — it's "this environment wasn't built for me." Al and Leanne explore what this means for how we think about belonging at work.
Source → Commentary → Read more →
2. How to hire an A-player: tough love or recruitment theatre?
A viral hiring post lays out a bold approach: multi-hour interviews, deep reference checks, and a "hard truths first" philosophy. But does this actually help you hire better — or just scare off the best people? Al and Leanne unpack the thinking behind this controversial method and explore what hiring top talent really takes.
3. Return-to-office rules are harming wellbeing — even before they're enforced
A new Hays poll of 3,600 UK workers and employers found nearly 4 in 10 say their wellbeing has taken a hit just from hearing about other organisations' return-to-office mandates. It's anticipatory anxiety — and it's building across the UK workforce.
🎙️ Hot Take: Should You Talk Openly About Quitting?
Becky Simms (founder of the Human First Collective) joins Al and Leanne to argue that talking about career moves before they happen could be the secret to better retention, stronger trust, and less awkward exits.
She explains why open conversations about ambition — even when that ambition lies outside your current role — can actually keep people in the business longer, and why anonymous feedback is a dead end.
Plus, Becky shares the work of Aspiration Digital, a collective helping school-age young people find their path into the digital and creative industries.
📬 Register your interest to support Aspiration Digital: forms.gle/qFSqSurv1soNF4sL8 📱 Follow Aspiration Digital on Instagram: instagram.com/aspirationdigital 📱 Follow on TikTok: tiktok.com/@aspirationdigital
💬 Workplace Surgery
This week, Al and Leanne are joined by experts from The Curve Group to answer 3 complex HR dilemmas:
1. "How do you handle a workplace complaint when one employee wants to make amends — and the other wants them gone?" 🎧 Response from: Catherine Coggins – Head of HR & Legal at The Curve Group
2. "Are job boards still worth it for small businesses?" 🎧 Response from: Liam Reed – Head of Recruitment Operations at The Curve Group
3. "How do bank holidays work for compressed hours?" 🎧 Response from: Catherine Coggins – Head of HR & Legal at The Curve Group
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottIs imposter syndrome really a confidence problem or a workplace one? New research suggests it's inclusion, not insecurity, that's holding people back.
Al ElliottAnd the 6 strategies you need to implement to find great people. So is this smart hiring or just old-school thinking?
Leanne ElliottAnd in the Workplace Surgery, are job boards the only way to find great talent? We are joined by recruitment experts, The Curve Group, to help one listener cut through the noise and find great people.
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work.
Leanne ElliottThe award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWe're going to get into all of that right after this very quick word from our sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform. Every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. This might be the last of the formal This Week in Work. Not ever, but just for July, because in August we're doing something a little— well, we're trying something a bit different, aren't we, love?
Leanne ElliottYeah, well, we figured you guys are all on holiday, so we might want to have a little holiday too. Or at least do create content that feels a bit more holiday vibe. Um, and let's be honest, you're not going to want to listen to a work podcast when you're sat on the beach, nor would we encourage you to. So instead, we're going to bring you some bit lighter content that, that you'll hopefully still enjoy when you're dipping your toes in the Mediterranean.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Or whichever sea is your preference. We don't know.
Leanne ElliottIndeed, most seas are available.
Al ElliottThey are. So, we've got interviews with people about making work fun. On Tuesdays, it's probably gonna be me and Leanne in the garden with little lapel mics. Not gonna lie, probably a glass of wine.
Leanne ElliottPossibly.
Al ElliottIf there's— but you'll find out if there's like more than one glass of wine because it could be even worse than it normally is. Anyway, right now is Tuesday. Right now it is July, and right now it is Leanne's favourite time of the week, I think. Did I say your name wrong, Leanne? Leanne. Leanne's favourite time. That's my name. Okay, my love, what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottI have a new word.
Al ElliottDo you know what? You always announce it as if it's a brand new thing. Like you've, you've never come up with a new word. Every week you have a new word. Give us your new word.
Leanne ElliottNot every week, but I seem to have been coming across a few of them recently anyway.
Al ElliottI like new words.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah. Well, some are better than others. Um, my new word, let's see what this one's like. My new word is intruder paradox.
Al ElliottRight. So I've gotta guess, haven't I? Yeah. So intruder paradox. The paradox is something which appears to be something and it's actually Something else? Is that what a paradox is?
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Becky SimmsYeah.
Al ElliottSo an intruder, so it would mean someone is intruding, but they're not really intruding. I think I might have gone down a cul-de-sac here, love. Help us out.
Leanne ElliottIt's, do you know what? I'm not surprised. It's one that I must admit, I probably read a couple of times before I kind of understood it. I should say as well, this, I came across this through Matt Smead, who was actually on the show last week.
Al ElliottYes, I think so.
Becky SimmsYeah.
Leanne ElliottJust last week. Who posted this research article on LinkedIn. I thought it was kind of cool. So basically, intruder paradox is being put forward. It's an alternative term for imposter syndrome.
Al ElliottSo it's, it's not the act of being put forward. It is, it is an alternative to imposter syndrome.
Leanne ElliottIt's being suggested. It's been tabled.
Al ElliottReported.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottTabled. Oh, I like that. It's been tabled.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottI like that. God, I feel like we're real corporate.
Leanne ElliottI know, yeah.
Al ElliottIt's been tabled. Yes, look.
Leanne ElliottYes, let's circle back to this definition.
Al ElliottSuch idiots.
Leanne ElliottSo imposter syndrome, basically imposter syndrome says that the self-doubt comes from within.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottThe intruder paradox is arguing that actually might be your environment that's making you feel like an outsider.
Al ElliottSee, now I wouldn't go—
Leanne ElliottLike, it's not me, it's you.
Al ElliottBut I wouldn't go with, with that. I'd go imposter is internal. Exposter syndrome is what I'd call it. Exposter syndrome.
Leanne ElliottBecause it's external. See, now this is the difference between marketers and psychologists.
Al ElliottMarketers make it up. Psychologists have genuine— yeah.
Leanne ElliottBut yours is more catchy. You probably remember that one.
Al ElliottCatchy but bullshit.
Becky SimmsYeah.
Leanne ElliottMarketing and all that sums up marketing.
Al ElliottI'm gonna change my, my X bio to, uh, to catchy but bullshit. There you go. Right, so you can find out more ideas on catchupwithbullshit.com.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, anyway, intruder—
Al ElliottSorry, Matt, you were talking.
Leanne ElliottIntruder paradox. Um, so yeah, Matt Matt shared this paper and basically suggests that workplace structures, norms, behaviours, the environment that we're in, um, can often trigger feelings of being an intruder, especially in people who are perhaps from underrepresented or marginalised groups. So women, People of colour. Um, we do hear a lot about imposter syndrome, probably a bit too much. Um, psychologists, interesting enough, call it imposter phenomenon. Um, I'm not sure why it got called syndrome, because it's not a syndrome, is it?
Al ElliottWhat makes a syndrome? What's a phenomenon? What's a syndrome?
Leanne ElliottWell, I think a syndrome is when it suggests there's something wrong.
Al ElliottOh, so it's kind of like—
Leanne ElliottOr different, I guess.
Al ElliottSo that's something you might have contracted or been born with. Do you know what, let's take this offline. Carry on. I'm totally hijacking your bit here, right? I'm gonna shut up.
Leanne ElliottThat's what I usually do. Um, so anyway, imposter syndrome, that feeling that you're not, you're not good enough, um, it's framed as a personal issue, isn't it? Like, I'm just lacking the confidence, or I'm not able to internalise my achievement, that's on me. Um, so what these researchers were saying is, what if the real problem isn't your mindset but actually the environment around you? Um, so what they did to understand this is they sampled women, 40 women working in train— working or training in medicine in Canada. So very successful women, typically male-dominated work environments. Many of these women were also from underrepresented backgrounds, and they talked about what it's like to try and succeed in a male-dominated profession. So what they found is that some women said they did feel like imposters, but not because they lacked confidence. Instead, they've been treated as if they didn't belong. So ignored, passed over, criticised unfairly. Just a regular Monday, right, ladies? Or told they weren't right for certain roles. So one woman also said, this is a quote, it's not imposter syndrome, it's you don't want me in the field. So researchers came up with a new term, the intruder paradox, to describe this.
Al ElliottJust so I understand the difference, it's not that they're made— that they feel like they're imposters, they're made to feel like intruders.
Leanne ElliottExactly, exactly. So it's what, what the researchers went on to do was describe some workplace scenarios where one might feel intruder paradox. So they said subtle things like not, not being invited to key meetings, being told to tone it down, getting less credit than others, or being discouraged from going for leadership roles. And over time, that's having the impact, chips away at confidence. So even if you believe in yourself, these kind of cues, yeah, we internalise them in a, in a way that impacts our confidence, or what psychologists call self-efficacy, the belief that we can do our jobs well. Um, so yeah, I think that's the, that's the kind of the summary of the research, that instead of blaming the individuals for feeling like imposters, perhaps we need to consider the environment and actually where certain environments are making people feel like they're intruders. So I guess, Al, is this useful? Is it a word that we don't need? Is it actually describing what these women are experiencing?
Al ElliottI mean, most of the words you come up with are words we don't need. And you do admit to that, that some of them are just like forest bathing and stuff, which is basically just going out and not from behind your desk. I think it would be a difficult reframe because imposter syndrome has been around, what, since the '70s? So I think it would be a difficult reframe, but I think it does more accurately show what people are going through. And also just you saying that made me go, oh, oh yeah, yeah, no, I can see it. I don't think, I don't think I've done that. Maybe I have in the past, but I can definitely see how now it's not a pro— it's not the problem of these women, it's the problem of the organization or culture. Is that—
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah. And I think that's where— and Matt was a bit conflicted on this as well in his original post, which I'll leave a link to in the show notes if you want to have a read of his take on it. He was kind of the same, like, I'm not sure if it's a new term that we need. I'm not sure if it's actually describing what it's describing. Is it actually just talking about something that's more rooted in diversity and inclusion, or rather exclusion? Is it really, yeah, imposter syndrome necessarily? Equally, there's a lot of beef around imposter phenomenon that it is primarily found in women. It is rooted in research off of the '70s where women didn't have particularly great rights in the workplace and were very publicly and unashamedly undermined in work. So there's some kind of tension around that as a term as well, and also kind of how widely it's used, and people will kind of self-diagnose as having imposter syndrome. And actually, when you look at it, the kind of the really debilitating aspect of imposter syndrome, it is much smaller in terms of percentage of the population. So I think it's a— it was problematic to begin with. I think this may be making it more complicated and potentially problematic. I think what there's absolutely no doubt about is there are behaviours and systems in our workplaces that is making women and people from marginalised backgrounds, and potentially anybody who finds himself on the wrong side of somebody more powerful, These are environments that are impacting our ability to progress, to develop our careers, to perform really well, and to feel confident about what we do. So I think it's interesting. I just don't know if it's quite— I don't know if it's the same thing, you know? I don't know. I'm not sure. I, like Matt, I have more questions from this than questions answered.
Al ElliottYes. So I saw on Twitter or Twix or X or whatever we're calling it these days. This post, I'm only going to say the person posting it, their name is, first name is Michael, who's essentially 6 strategies about how to find great candidates, how to interview great candidates. This person has interviewed over 4,000 candidates, so they, you think they know what they're doing. My concern with this was maybe it was a little bit too generalistic, but I thought let's put it to you, Lee. So I will give you each one of these 6 and then we'll go through them one by one and you can Tell me what your thoughts are. Uh, the first one is checking out whether they've got 5 essential qualities. Secondly is this assessment strategy. Thirdly is the A-player philosophy. Fourthly is the interview process. Fifthly is reference checks. And sixthly, sixthly, is that a word? Sixthly is document.
Leanne ElliottShould be.
Al ElliottIt should be. It's a great word, is document everything. Now, the ones that jumped out immediately were number one, this A-player philosophy. Now, what he says is A-players make up just 10% of all candidates, but one A-player can outperform 10 B-players. What's your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottWhat's an A-player?
Al ElliottWell, he's saying basically an A-player is someone who is going to go the extra mile, who's going to be just so dedicated, who's gonna shift your business. So we're talking about in terms of OpenAI, uh, they've just lost a, I think it's OpenAI or was it, was it Windsurf? There's one company who have just lost their entire A-player C-suite. Mm-hmm. Other people who are geniuses, they've gone to Google.
Leanne ElliottSo now you're talking about something else.
Al ElliottOh, go on.
Leanne ElliottNow you're talking about intelligence. Before you were talking about engagement, which happens on the job, not before you apply for it.
Al ElliottUh, fair enough. Fair enough. Well, I think maybe this isn't Michael's problem. This is me, I think, translating it. But essentially what we're saying is that here we are. Would you, if you were given 10 candidates and you, you could tell straight away from, from interviewing them that one of them was just incredible. They were what, what Michael would call an A-player. And then you had 6 which were B players. Michael reckons 1 A player is worth 10 B players. What's your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottWhat's an A player? I don't, I don't mean to be, be like annoying, but it's like, well, how do I instantly know they're an A player? I shouldn't instantly know. I should have a very thought-out methodical recruitment process that will give me data back to tell me who is the most qualified person for that Role.
Al ElliottWell, that has teed me up nicely for the second point he said, which is the interview process. See, it's almost like we've practiced this. We haven't.
Leanne ElliottReally, we haven't.
Al ElliottYeah, you can tell we haven't. So the number— the second thing he said was have a great interview process. Now, the way he does this is 2-on-1 behavioral interviewers, one lead interviewer, one listener. And then he says to gut-check impressions. Then they do each interview's 2 hours. It's a deep dive approach, 2 hours learning the life story of the candidate and finding out what makes them tick. And then finally, and, oh, sorry, not, and finally, and this 2 hours is a stress test. If they can't handle 2 hours of questions, they probably can't handle the job. What are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottWhat's the job?
Al ElliottI don't know, 'cause this is just general, like if you want to get great people, this is my—
Leanne ElliottThis is my problem. This is my problem. And do you know, in all respect, I love Michael and I love, I love the majority of his ideas. What frustrates me about this a little bit is it's like, it's all very like buzzword, and I can see how it's gone viral. And it's like, yeah, all I need to do now is implement 2-hour interviews and be like, woof! And it's like, for what though? What are you trying to assess? What job are you recruiting for? I— do I want somebody who's really good at answering questions doing my compliance? Maybe actually, because I'll probably get asked a lot of questions. But equally, there's going to be jobs where it's like, that's not—
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottWhat skill is it you're Assessing there by, by putting somebody in a room and asking them constant questions for 2 hours, hugely problematic as well in terms of anyone with any form of disability or health condition or someone who is neurodiverse. Very problematic and potentially unlawful recruitment practices if you're not careful. The other thing as well, in terms of that, they're saying the whole life story of the person so they can figure out who they are. There's loads of great psychologists who wouldn't do that because actually who you are is quite subjective and what you want to share. In the context of an interview. It's not therapy. That's why people use psychometrics, because they're designed to extract clues about our personality, our ways of thinking that we can then look at objectively. So again, I'm not sure. This sounds highly problematic, Al.
Al ElliottThe third thing, what do you think about this? This third one is, tell every candidate upfront you're doing 5 hours of reference checks. Because then bad candidates will drop out because they'll be like, oh my God, they're probably gonna check up on me. And great candidates will want the job even more because they know other businesses are sloppy with references. What are your thoughts on that?
Leanne ElliottWell, I mean, maybe. I mean, yeah, it's gonna— if somebody is making up their references, they'll probably let themselves out there. I don't know why it needs to be 5 hours.
Al ElliottI think, but I think what Michael's point is that they, they're not just gonna go, oh great, I'll, I'll, I'll ring up this one person and go, yeah, did, did Greg, does Greg exist? Yeah. Did he work for you? Yeah. Cool. Thank you very much. Apparently he's gonna go to every single reference and interview every single reference, maybe for 2 hours as well. I don't know. All right, my love, what else have you seen this week? Quick, quick, quick, because the dog looks like he's about to bark.
Leanne ElliottWhat have I seen this week? The fear of being ordered back into the office is apparently affecting UK employee wellbeing. That's according to The Guardian this week.
Al ElliottI don't think you need to say any more. That makes sense. Fair enough. Okay, so it's time for the news. So what else have they said about this?
Leanne ElliottA new poll from Hays surveyed 3,600 UK workers and employers, and nearly 4 in 10 say their wellbeing has taken a hit just from hearing about companies tightening office rules. Quite a lot, that, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah, sorry, I'm distracted talking to our little dog there. Yes, absolutely. So Hays, 3,600, 1 in 4. What was the, what was the stats again?
Leanne ElliottUm, 1 in— 4 in 10. Um, said that their wellbeing has taken a hit just from hearing about other organisations tightening return-to-office policies.
Al ElliottOkay, you know how you destroyed my last news segment?
Leanne ElliottYep.
Al ElliottI'm possibly going to be cancelled for saying this, but going, come on guys, no.
Leanne ElliottGo on, say more.
Al ElliottJust no. Don't. Right, it's not affecting you. Remember our ellipse of give a shittery before we talked about the Venn diagram? Stuff you care about, stuff you control. The bit in the middle is what you need to worry about. Um, other, other companies are bringing people back to work. So what? Get on with your own work. Just shut up and just get on with it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah.
Al ElliottSorry.
Leanne ElliottNo, no, it's not quite that easy though, is it? It's, it's what's called anticipatory, anticipatory, anticipatory— I can never say that word— anticipatory anxiety.
Al ElliottOh, I think I've got anxiety. Did you get anxiety about saying anticipatory anxiety?
Leanne ElliottYes, I did. Is that irony?
Al ElliottI think so.
Leanne ElliottThere you go. Do you know what, I, I get it because it's not just like— it's big names, isn't it? It's big organisations that made a big song and dance like just post-pandemic about how they're going to stay remote first and on a hybrid, and, and we're seeing so many, so many people being called back to the office. And actually, I think it's, it's a significant— I think it is a significant worry for somebody who has caring responsibilities, somebody who has a long commute, given how much transport costs have gone up massively over the last 2 years, I think it could actually have a real impact on somebody's life and finances. And if it's getting more popular, is it inevitable that at some point everyone's going to get an RTO mandate?
Al ElliottYeah, but I suppose that's worrying about, you know, layoffs. And of course you're going to worry about those, but until it happens to you— maybe I'm just living in a utopic world, maybe I'm just a little bit privileged, but I'm like, why worry about something? Because 90% of the things we worry about never even happen. So if, if just the sound, the thought of other people going back to work, mate, I, I'd look at it and go, huh, I'm not. Screw you lot on the bus.
Leanne ElliottBut is that because, you know, it'll never impact you? Like you'll never, it's completely irrelevant.
Al ElliottMaybe. Although to be fair, if we lose it all and have to go and get a job, then perhaps I'll be crying my eyes out a bit more.
Leanne ElliottAre you employable at this point?
Al ElliottNo, absolutely not. People would, I, I do not ever, if, if I come and ask you for a job, yeah, you listener, do not employ me. I'm terrible.
Leanne ElliottYou're not, you're phenomenal. You just like to work, like to walk to the beat of your own drum, love, don't you?
Al ElliottExactly, and that means having a coffee once an hour.
Leanne ElliottYes, anyway, actually, maybe to your point, this was another statistic that I was gonna, I was gonna share with you, um, not from this article, but about RTO mandates more generally, um, and I think this is actually from Nick Bloom who posted about this, um, so he quoted some data from a SWAA survey in December, um, last year, so December '24, um, they— people were asked what would they do if their employer required a 5-day return to office, and only 44% reported they would comply.
Becky SimmsOh.
Leanne ElliottUm, and 2 years ago, um, so when they did it in 2023, 53% reported that they would have complied. Um, so it's gone down. So it seems though resistance is is growing potentially, which causes a bit of a pickle because if we've got fewer hybrid jobs and more people who are willing to leave their job because it's not hybrid, we might have a bit of a critical mass problem in the labour market at some point. But equally, I wonder sometimes whether you hear all these RTO mandates like the ones they quote in this article, like HSBC, Barclays, Santander. The majority of organisations in the UK, small businesses, the majority of small businesses tend to have a hybrid policy, do they not? Do you know one small business who doesn't have hybrid at this point?
Al ElliottNope.
Leanne ElliottNo, neither do I. Um, so maybe Al's right, maybe it's all nonsense, but I think it is— it's worth reminding, I think, as a, as a business owner, if you're ever thinking about adjusting your policy, whether it's remote, hybrid, or what that split is, it's being aware that there may well be people in your organisation who are anxious about that change before you even said anything. So either being very clear that you're not going to change it is going to help with this, these levels of anxiety, um, or if you are going to change it, be very clear about what that means, what the lead-in time is, and ideally have some kind of consultation period in that as well. Um, clearly Al didn't think this was very interesting, but if you did, I will leave a link in the show notes.
Al ElliottI'm introducing a new segment. By the way, I'm sorry, but maybe it's just a bit of a tit-for-tat because you shot down mine.
Becky SimmsMy view. Fine.
Al ElliottBut, um, look forward to your letters. Um, I've got a new segment. I've just thought of a new segment. I'm gonna call it Stories We Didn't Have Time For.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottAnd, uh, so in today's Stories We Don't Have Time For, how about the boss of a multi-billion dollar software company who went to a Coldplay—
Leanne ElliottOh my God, my LinkedIn has been full of that today.
Al ElliottColdplay gig. If you've not heard, basically boss went to Coldplay gig, um, was, uh, feeling off He's— the woman he's having an affair with, which ironically is the head of HR.
Leanne ElliottThat's the worst thing.
Al ElliottThat's the worst thing ever. Stuck on the big screen. And Coldplay were like, and Chris Martin, is it Coldplay, was like, oh, they're either embarrassed, 'cause they obviously just went, oh my God, shit, and just dived, dived out the camera and said, oh, either they're shy or having an affair. Turns out they were having an affair. So if you wanna find out, just search for Coldplay affair and then look for not that one, but the other one.
Leanne ElliottJust go onto LinkedIn.
Becky SimmsOh, okay.
Leanne ElliottAnd there'll be every second post. I did see a funny one today that I'm trying to find it so I can. I can share it with you. I am, I am enjoying LinkedIn at the moment. It's getting quite, quite salty, and I'm here for it. Rough day for Andy Byron. Imagine waking up to the whole world realizing you like Coldplay. Brilliant.
Al ElliottAbsolutely brilliant.
Leanne ElliottThat's from, um, Brad Mampe.
Al ElliottBrad, well done. Well played, my friend. Well played. Okay, so after this very short break, we'll be back with The hot take from an incredible woman. You're going to love her this week. And also talking incredible women, my wife and co-host is also incredible, and she's going to be here with the world famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to her. We will see you in just a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast—that's us, by the way—and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people. do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Seamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science. science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Leanne ElliottI'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in. Welcome back. It is time for our Hot Take, where we bring in a guest to challenge the way we think about work. And today is about something that nobody likes to talk about, but everyone ends up dealing with— people leaving.
Leanne ElliottOur Hot Take today comes from Becky Simms. She is the founder of Reflect Digital and CEO of the Human First Collective. She has spent nearly 2 decades leading teams, building agencies, and helping businesses grow through digital strategy and behavioral insight. And her view is simple. We need to stop treating resignations like betrayals and start being honest about the fact that most people will move on eventually.
Al ElliottSo, here's Becky Simms, and check out what she's talking about with Aspiration Digital. Really cool initiative.
Becky SimmsI'm Becky Simms. I am the founder of the Human First Collective, which is a group of agencies that put humans first in the way we work and the work we do. We also have an initiative called Aspiration Digital, which is where we inspire the next generation of digital leaders. So, we run events for sixth form students across the country, and we have a podcast called Behind the Future, which is where myself and a co-host student interview people that work in the sector to find out what they do and how they got into it. And if that wasn't enough, I also sit on the government's Digital Skills Council as an external advisor, helping address the UK's evolving digital needs and to create a workforce that can grow with the digital economy. So, my hot take is that Businesses and employees just need to get over the secrecy around the fact that people will leave their job at some point. It's this thing, it's a taboo, isn't it, to talk about it? And you end up one day, someone comes in and they just hand you their notice. And people still like to do that quite formally, don't they? We end up, especially if you're in person, you get the printed letter and you're like, whoa, where did this come from? And it's a shame. Like, actually, what we do in our business, and that I just encourage more businesses should do, is we talk to the team about being open about it. So, actually, when I do an onboarding intro with anyone new that joins our business. I always mention this. I say, now, you could be with our business for the next 5 to 10 years, or you might be here for a year or 2, and that doesn't matter. Like, one of our big things is that, one, we want you to make sure that you leave stronger and better than when you arrived, and make sure that we've had an impact on your career. But 2, we wanna help you to be having a fantastic career. And to do that, we wanna talk about your career plans. We wanna know what you want, where you want to be. And there will come a point where maybe that isn't with us. And let's talk about that because we've got incredible networks. We can help you set you up for that. We can help make sure that you can find the right next step. All the while also, we can business plan around that as well. So, whether that is that they want to go and work at, hopefully it's not in a competitor business. Normally it is that they want to do something different that maybe we haven't got the space for them to do in our business. But sometimes they might go on to a competitor, and that's equally fine because—
Al ElliottYeah.
Becky SimmsI think there was, there was used to feel that there's this difference between the employer has all the control, but I really try to say, even like in people's probation periods, this is your chance to decide if you like working here as much as it is our chance to decide whether we think you're right for the role and working in this environment. So, it's the same when you talk about people's career prospects. There'll come a point where maybe they aren't right in the role they're doing, and then the aim is that you try and move them into the role that is right. But sometimes, again, it might be that they've kind of The business has outgrown them or they've outgrown the business. But all the while, it's this kind of taboo thing that we need to talk about behind closed doors and not to the person that really needs to hear it. You can't do anything about it and you can't help the person. And the same as well, we really encourage side hustles, people to be entrepreneurial. So, we recently lost one of my, probably the most important employees we've had along the journey. He was my sidekick for a huge amount of time, a fantastic guy, Sylvain. But he was running a side hustle, which we knew about, which we supported him in, and he's gone on to do great things with that. And I could not be prouder of him, but actually we managed to have a really wonderful exit where it was at the right time for both of us. We knew what was happening. We talked about it as adults and, and it's been perfect. We've been able to get the right person in to fill his shoes. It'll never be another Sylvain, but we've got a new person doing their thing and putting their stamp on the business. And it's brilliant. It also means that if you end things well, that you never know what happens next. People go and work other places where they might refer business back to you, but we've also had some boomerangers, people that have left, gone and done something different, grown, learned some new skills, and then come back to us because we've had, at that point, had the right role for them. Again, in a small business, you don't always have the opportunities to have the opening that they might want. So, they leave, they go do something else, and then when the time is right, they come back. I just think we need to get over the secrecy behind it and help each other from a business point of view and an employee point of view to have the best relationship while we're together and to help make sure that we can have the best relationship afterwards and that we're helping each other to grow. And also, when you welcome the conversation so that it's never this surprise of I'm going, but you've got a chance to talk to each other and to look at, is there another route? So, we've had people before that have said that, I'm not sure this role's what I want anymore, and I'm thinking of this, and we've gone, well, you could do that here. Like, we could build a pathway to get you into that role. Like, we might, we probably can't flick a switch overnight, but we can make it happen. Actually, one of our really long-term employees, she joined us, she joined us as a summer intern and then a year placement student. She then was working in our SEO team for Very long time, but really enjoyed the client side of it. So we built a pathway that meant that she moved into the client servicing team. She's now one of our account directors and she's absolutely thriving. But if we'd not created a space where we could have that conversation, she probably would have left as an SEO manager to go and find that pathway elsewhere. When actually we didn't want her to leave. She's brilliant. And she didn't really want to leave either, but it kind of forces those open conversations to go, well, we can help make this happen. And we try and make it just easy through the career development plan. I think the secrecy behind it and those kind of, you know what it's like when someone's starting to interview, oh, I've got a dentist appointment. Oh, you're suddenly going to the dentist a lot. It's like, just talk about it and let's help you, because also we might be able to make that introduction that is just what you need to find that next role in that company that might be better suited for what you want to do next.
Al ElliottI think there's going to be a number of CFOs listening and going to go, who are going to be angry about this idea because they're thinking, I'm investing all this money in recruiting, training, onboarding, developing all of these, this amazing talent. And we're actively having a conversation with them saying, well, if you want to go, go. What would you say to those people?
Becky SimmsWell, I suppose that you're also actively helping keep them in the business longer because if they openly are telling you and feel psychologically safe to tell you what they want and what maybe they're not getting, You can fix it. I think the problem with the mindset where it's not okay to talk about it is that the person just sits there thinking, well, I just have to do the job you've told me I need to do, and I can't— there's no wiggle room. And then it's, well, I don't really want to do this anymore. I want to do that. So, I'll just go find that, and they'll hear when I've found that, and I'm going, and here's my notice. Whereas actually, if you've created the safe space to go, do you know what? I've really been thinking about this. I've been having conversations with other people. I really want to develop more into this role.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Becky SimmsProviding that's a role in your business, it's then in your power to help save that person and make sure that you can get them into that role when the time's right. And people are pretty reasonable, even if you can't make it happen overnight, but you can start to say, well, why don't, what if we had one day a week where we were helping you to do that? And then suddenly, actually, from the CFO's point of view, this is brilliant. We're keeping people longer because we're stopping them having to leave the company because they want something that that we didn't know about before. So, yeah, we love feedback. And again, when someone new starts, we talk about that so openly to say, there is nothing you can't say to us about feedback. We wanna hear it. And we don't let it be anonymous.
Al ElliottYou don't let it be anonymous?
Becky SimmsNo, you can't do anything with anonymous feedback. I don't know who said it. I don't understand the context, like, 'cause people will put like a couple of sentences and you're like, well, that's really annoying 'cause I don't know enough about that. I can't do anything with that now. So, We don't let it be anonymous. It has to be, but then we've created a safe space where people can say things openly enough, with their name against it, and they know we're not going to sack them tomorrow because they said something we didn't like, or we didn't want to hear. It's like, of course we're not. We need to hear this, and we need to hear it openly. So, yeah, no anonymous feedback.
Al ElliottSo, I'm going to talk about Aspiration Digital, right? So, from what I understand, it is taking younger people and getting them into industry. So, This sounds cool for someone who's maybe under the age of 25. You bring them in, they don't know where they're going. What does the— do you do the same thing if someone's maybe in their 50s and they're coming to your business and you still say, yeah, you can leave if you want? Is it a generational thing? Talk me through it.
Becky SimmsAspiration Digital is very focused on helping school-age, kind of as they're at that leaving age. So, sixth formers, helping them to see what the roles in the digital space look like, because absolutely young people They are more well-versed in digital and tech probably than you and I. They're quicker, they're better, they're faster, they know all about it, but they so often do not know the jobs that sit behind it and that there's these real jobs and careers and things they can get paid to do that are exciting and fun and brilliant. They don't know they exist. And currently the curriculum does not make space to tell them about these jobs. So, they're leaving school unless they've had parents or friends of parents that are in these roles, or they have been super curious and found it, they don't know. So, that's what we do with Aspiration Digital. On the kind of career changer side of things, I'm really pro that as well. So, I add to my other things I do, there's an organization called BIMA, the British Interactive Media Association, which is like the FA is to the footballing world for the digital world. I help chair their Attract part of the of the organisation, where we're helping attract people into the sector, partly at the young age, which really aligns with Aspiration Digital, but also looking at career changes, because digital is amazing, especially for people that might want more flexible working once they've had children, being able to go and work in a career where it's not so tied to a desk, having to be in an office all the time, but actually things like our work-from-anywhere policy we were chatting about earlier. And those kinds of things that a lot of digital businesses offer and the flexibility to work different hours, et cetera, is really attractive to people that might be wanting to find the right career to suit their lifestyle once they've got kids and all the responsibility and things that come with that. And actually, there's a little form which you might want to put in the show notes that people can fill in. So, we are looking for speakers and people to get on stages to come and inspire students. So, we're At the moment, our next events are in Newcastle and in Kent, but we are currently in talks with lots of different venues across the country so that over the next year, we kind of want to get across the whole of the UK. I don't see why students just in our back garden should benefit from this. We want everybody to have the chance. So, there'll be opportunities to get on stages. We'll be looking for sponsors. So, we run this as not-for-profit. We aim to find venues that give us the space for free. So, any universities out there listening, you tend to be a good spot for us. We've also got the podcast Behind the Future. So, we're looking for guests to join us on that. So, there's lots of different ways, but on that form, we've kind of got a— you can tell us what you want to do and how you can help us. So, anyone that's interested, and you don't have to be a pure digital business, you just need to have something about what you do that's digital that you could inspire young people to show them how digital works in the world of work and how they might be able to aspire to do something like that.
Al ElliottSo, that was Becky Simms. Don't forget, Aspiration Digital, there's a link in the show notes to find out more about that. But before we talk about That, Lee, counterintuitive. Is this— is she mad? Is she a genius? What's, what's your psychological take on what she just said?
Leanne ElliottShe's a genius.
Al ElliottWell, there we go. That was Becky Simms and Leanne. So there you go, Becky, you've been told a genius. Leanne doesn't never call me a genius. Go on.
Leanne ElliottI have definitely called you a genius before. Oh no, I, I like it, I like it, I like it. Look, if we've got organizations that have authentic psychological safety, which we go on about all the time, and business owners go on about all the time, that will include people feeling, being, feeling comfortable with being open and honest about what they want for their career, what that path looks like. And the reality is, particularly if you're a smaller business, you might just simply not have the roles available within your organisation to offer that career pathway. It might be that somebody wants to, you know, works for an agency and wants to go in-house for a little while. It might be they want a complete career pivot, I don't think it's the worst thing to ask people and expect them to be honest, because if nothing else, it gives you an idea of succession planning. And we've worked with clients that the worst thing about people leaving is they're completely blindsided and have no backup plan. So, I think actually this could be a really smart way of actually helping your person, and by doing that, they're going to give you 120% whilst they are in the organisation and give you a really clear view. of the succession plan that you're gonna need to have in place.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. So there may be 7 ways to leave your lover, but actually there's only one proper way to leave your employer. Leanne, she did say, now I dunno how you're gonna react to this, but Becky did say that she doesn't allow anonymised feedback. If you do surveys, you have to put your name to it. If you give some feedback, you have to put your name to it. Now, I pushed her on that and I said, that's not the way normal people do it. And she said, first of all, I'm not normal, I'm exceptional. She didn't, but I've added that bit. But secondly, she said, look, there's no wrong, there's nobody's wrong. It doesn't matter if you say this is all terrible because I want to hear it and I want to hear your name. I don't know how, which way this is gonna go, Leanne. What are your thoughts on that?
Leanne ElliottI mean, I think because of what she's doing, and I follow some of Becky's other approaches in terms of how she leads her business as well, but when you combine Combine that with the fact that she's openly asking when people are going to leave and she's not punishing them for it. Um, I know she has a— she has lots of trusted employees. They've got, I think they've got 4 weeks a year where they can work from anywhere in the world.
Al Elliott4-day work week.
Leanne ElliottA 4-day work week. Do you know what I mean? Trust is so embedded in this organization, its culture. Then I, I, I can't, I can't say otherwise other than I'm sure it probably works. Without, you know, actually speaking to employees and getting their view on it. Um, but yeah, I think it's trust at that level, isn't it? That radical honesty. If people aren't being punished, they are experiencing true, authentic psychological safety, then I'm sure people would be happy to provide feedback without it being anonymized. Um, I would imagine that Becky's organization is one in a million for being able to do that. Um, I wouldn't recommend it to other businesses, but clearly Becky does not. need my recommendation. She is smashing it.
Al ElliottAnd I think that's probably an important thing saying it doesn't work for every business because as Becky said in our conversation, it's like, it's, it's so important to understand that you can't just go out there and implement this, go, right, we're doing feedback, but it's non-anonymized, un-anonymized. It's not anonymous. You can't go and do that. You can't go and do the stuff that Becky's doing right now because Becky started a 4-week workweek in 2017, I think it was. So even before the pandemic. So, she's been doing all this, so she's got everything in place. So, every time she adds something new, it's just building on a foundation of amazing culture. It's not going, oh, we'll stick some pizzas down in the, in the, in the break room and hopefully they'll stop complaining about overtime.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And that trust is compounded, isn't it? It's not just in one example, it's over and over again over time. Um, so yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's a wonderful, wonderful thing. And Becky's created a culture that is, is authentically experiencing psychological safety.
Al ElliottSo if you wanna learn more about Becky, then definitely go and follow her on LinkedIn. And if you care about the future of work, then—
Leanne ElliottAnd you should.
Al ElliottAnd you should. And if you don't, then what are you listening to us for, you weirdos? Uh, if you care about the future of work, then definitely go and check out the work she's doing at Aspiration Digital. Um, it is a phenomenal organization that I believe is not-for-profit. Don't quote me on that. I know it's not a commercial thing. And, and, uh, she's going around the country. She's going to Newcastle. She's hopefully going to Manchester, possibly talking to one of our friends in Manchester. I think you know which one. I think you can guess which one we're talking about. Um, and, um, you always do this on air, don't you?
Leanne ElliottYou always drop something like that and I need to know immediately.
Al ElliottI'm teasing you.
Leanne ElliottMy curiosity can't handle it.
Al ElliottBack to Becky. So go and check out Aspiration Digital. Go and, and also if you think you can help with that cause, then click the link in the show notes, which is a form. You can fill it out and say what you can do. And she'll, I, I, she's such a lovely woman. She'll be like, yeah, great. Come and, come and get involved. So, uh, if you care about the kids, once somebody think of the children. If you care about the kids, then go and check out what she's doing.
Leanne ElliottNow it's time to move on to Al's favourite time of the week. It's the world-famous weekly workplace surgery, but we're doing it a bit different this week, Al.
Al ElliottJust a little bit. We've got friends, previous guests, and also lovely, lovely people who are going to help us with our questions this week.
Leanne ElliottYeah, we do, we do, because from time to time we do get some questions in from listeners which are much more HR-based, employer-employee relations-based. Um, I'm an occupational psychologist. I'm not an expert in HR employment law. That world is not mine. I'm adjacent. I'm not in it. Um, so I would never try to give you advice on, on these things, but I will find someone who can.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottAnd that's what I have done. Uh, regular listeners will remember, uh, this organisation. Uh, we have some friends today joining us from The Curve Group. Um, if you don't know of them, you haven't heard of them, or haven't listened to the episode with Jeanette Ramsden, who's the CEO, um, who talked wonderful things about, uh, reduced working— a reduced working week.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, then the Curve Group is an outsourced HR and recruitment solution provider, and they provide loads of different solutions across the entire employee life cycle. So, you're talking like right from recruitment right through to maybe how somebody might need to leave the organisation, what to do once they have. Um, so, we have 3 questions this week with a more HR focused, and that we'll be answering alongside our friends from The Curve Group.
Al ElliottSo, question number 1, what do you do when 2 employees are in a complete deadlock after a serious complaint? We've had a situation where one employee reported another for inappropriate behaviour, including comments with racist undertones and unwanted physical contact. The accused was shocked and wanted to apologise, but the person who made the complaint has said they never want to see or speak to this person again. They're not in the same team, but they are in the same department, so total separation isn't possible. How do you move forward when one person wants to make amends and the other one just wants them gone? This one definitely requires some HR and legal expertise, something which we wouldn't necessarily always say that we've got the answer. I would never say, but Leanne wouldn't say she's got the answers. Here is Katherine Coggins, who is Head of Internal HR and Legal at The Curve Group, and here are her thoughts.
Leanne ElliottThis is a difficult situation, and unfortunately, there's probably no quick-fix solution. If you're happy that you've dealt with the grievance in the correct manner, so whether it's formal or informal, you followed the right process, I would then have a conversation with the employee who raised the grievance to explain to them what's been done and also that you're unable to separate them completely due to the department they work in. I wonder if you've offered mediation as an option. So, this can be run internally if you've got trained individuals within your workplace.
Becky SimmsOr you can use external support such as ACAS.
Leanne ElliottAnd it's an opportunity for both sides to explain how they're feeling about the incident and agree to solutions moving forward. And it's supported by an impartial party to help facilitate that conversation. Unfortunately, you can't force an employee into taking part. So, if the employee who raised the grievance doesn't wish to take part, then all you need to be seen to be doing is ensuring you've taken reasonable steps to separate the employee and resolve any issues.
Al ElliottSo that was Katherine Coggins. Leanne Elliott, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottYeah, solid advice there from Katherine, isn't it? I think mediation is really, a really smart idea, and it might feel overly formal to go through something like this, particularly in a small organisation. It can feel a bit serious, can't it? But actually, I think it's often the only way that you're going to really kind of get some kind of solution on how to move forward if you've got a third party mediating this conversation between these 2 people. As Katherine said, you can't force people to enter mediation, so if this member of staff doesn't want to, there's not much you can do about that. Yeah, it's a really tricky one. I think the only thing that I would also recommend that you do is maybe have a little think about how you're currently dealing with behaviours like this in the workplace in real time, rather than once a complaint is made. classic definition of culture— worst behaviors tolerated. Are there other behaviors like this, like I say, these undertones, um, that are happening more regularly than you might see or you might want to be happening? I'm sure you don't want them to happen. Um, that is defining your culture. Um, because when people feel safe in these types of behaviors, that's when they actually start to action them towards other people. Um, so I would have a think about that and go back to our episode we did with Annie Doyle, Dr. Annie Doyle, the harassment doctor. Some fantastic advice in there. I'll leave a link to that in the show notes.
Al ElliottOkay, great. So question number 2, is there actually a good recruitment tool for small businesses or are we stuck with job boards? Interesting. Interesting. I run a small business team of 7. We're trying to hire a couple of roles. So far, job boards haven't brought in much, mostly underqualified or irrelevant applications. Not from Monster.com, that's gone bust. I'm wondering if it's better just to reach out to candidates directly. Are there any tools that actually help small businesses find good people, not just wait for them to apply?
Leanne ElliottI, of course, have my opinions on this, um, as somebody who also manages recruitment, but in terms of the actual tools, not my area of expertise. I wasn't sure, so I passed on your question to an expert. Please welcome Liam Read, who is Head of Recruitment Operations at The Curve Group.
Al ElliottSo yeah, I think before jumping into the tools or headhunting, the first question I tend to ask yourself is, are you using the right platform to attract the right kind of talent? So taking a step back is always a good start. Job boards can be hit or miss, especially for small businesses. So if you are seeing a lot of underqualified or irrelevant applications, it might not be about volume. It might be about targeting the right profile. Headhunting is a great option, but let's be honest, it is really time consuming. Finding a decent profile on LinkedIn is one thing, but then comes the hard part, actually engaging them, getting them interested, and then selling the opportunity. As mentioned, there are tools out there that can help, but it really does depend on the type of role. For example, if it's a senior or specialised hire, LinkedIn tends to be the go-to. But if you're looking for more an ops role or a junior role, platforms like Indeed and TotalJobs CV Library might give you better traction. And I think this tends to get overlooked, but have you really tapped into that referral market? Your own network, your team, even friends or family of the business. Sometimes candidates that are close by. Understand your culture and are right for the business. Really, just to recap, before you start looking at platforms or tools, get really clear on the role, who you're targeting, what good looks like. Once that's dialed in, you, you've got a much more effective approach in going to market. Referrals. Well, if you listen to Nick Huber's Sweaty Startup interview about 20 episodes ago, he was talking about, he says that's how he gets most of his great people is through referrals. Although I have read a couple of books that Sometimes you have to be a bit careful with how you get referrals, but, um, I mean, obviously Leanne knows what he's talking about.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I've had huge success with referrals. Um, yeah, particularly once you've kind of nailed down, um, the roles that you need in your organization and how they will fit in together, and your culture's culturing, and, you know, your behaviors are vibing, and it can be really effective. I got to the point, I think, in the last 18 months of, of my job before I went self-employed, I think referrals was like 90% of our filled vacancies came from referrals. There is a slight danger, of course, because if you're asking people to refer friends or family, typically it's going to be people like them. You could then have some imbalance in terms of, depending on what your current organisation looks like, of course, in terms of demographics or indeed experience. Groupthink can start to creep in, stifles innovation, all that.
Becky SimmsMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottIn my experience, referrals have also worked out really, really well. So, I really like that advice from Liam. And I think the only other thing I'd find, I'd kind of add, is having something a bit more proactive in place in terms of ongoing recruitment. So, I think, do they call it quiet hiring or something now? I don't know. We just used to call it ongoing recruitment. We'd have talent pools of people who we thought were really cool, and when we had a vacancy, we'd pick up with them and see where they were at. So, you can actually be proactive in your recruitment whilst you're, um, you're not necessarily actively looking for vacancies can work out pretty well for a small business. Yeah, it needs to be managed, but also could be worth looking at. But I think Liam's right there, referrals could be a really good starting place.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Thank you, Liam. Liam Reid from Curve. Okay, so question number 3, how does bank holiday leave work if you do compressed hours? Oh, this is a great question. And what I like about this is that I think if I'd asked you that, You would've gone, oh, oh, oh. So, my wife's returning from maternity leave and working compressed hours, basically 5 days over 4. We understand how that affects her regular leave, but what about bank holidays? Now, what we're talking about bank holidays, just in case you've never heard of it, bank holidays are a UK thing. It's usually a Monday and you get like 6 days.
Leanne ElliottPublic holiday.
Al ElliottPublic holiday is what we're talking about. You might have Memorial Day across the pond. She's entitled to the usual 8 days of bank holiday, But now she won't be working Mondays, and a lot of bank holidays fall on Mondays. Does she just lose them? I am so pleased we're not answering this. I don't think I even understand the question. Okay, so once again, we're going to go over to Catherine Coggins, who's the Head of Internal HR and Legal at The Curve Group, because let's be honest, we've got no idea.
Leanne ElliottThis very much depends on what is contained in the contract of employment, so specifically around bank holidays, public holidays. So I'd recommend speaking to your HR department. A fair way to calculate holiday is to convert the full-time entitlement, including bank holidays, into hours, and then any time needed to cover bank holidays is deducted from this. This would then leave you with a proportion of bank holiday entitlement left to use as and when, but one definitely to speak to your HR department about.
Al ElliottI understand what Katherine said. I still wouldn't have a clue how to do it. It sounds to me like you need a spreadsheet and a bit of ChatGPT thrown in there, or possibly just Katherine from the Curve Group. I don't know.
Leanne ElliottI think Katherine from the Co-Group is the best option here, Al.
Al ElliottActually, that's a good point. Go to Katherine or someone like Katherine, uh, to, to go and get that advice. Don't use the things I talked about with spreadsheets and ChatGPT. That's not gonna work. Leigh, what would work?
Leanne ElliottDo you know what? It never even crossed my mind until actually when we were talking to Jeanette on the show and she said about how they convert days into hours. And I was like, well, that makes loads more sense. Mm-hmm. Because that gives you much more flexibility. Um, so yeah, but it's clever HR people like that, isn't it, that figure out figure out the processes to implement the things that, that, yeah, that we know psychologically and from the research is really positive for the employee experience. So, yeah, thank you so much to Katherine and Liam and everyone at The Curve Group who helped to put that together. Sam, special shout out to you. Thank you very much. Yeah, if you enjoyed that, let us know and we'll include some more HR-based questions in the future. If you have an HR-based question, send it in and we'll get it answered by a member of the team at The Curve Group. As always, I'll leave links to the Curve Group in the show notes, should you want to get in touch and ask about working out that holiday allowance that Al and I still can't quite wrap our head around.
Al ElliottI feel like I should say other HR agencies are available.
Leanne ElliottAnd not sponsored.
Al ElliottIt's not sponsored, but I think that this, hopefully this will become a relatively semi-regular thing because there's lots of questions that come in that just, you know, certainly I'm not qualified to, and I think you say that you're better to. Defer to an HR specialist. Okay, so that is all for now. Join us next Tuesday. In fact, well, join us on Thursday for an interview. You know what happens on Thursdays. We've got a great interview this week. Oh my God, I'm so looking forward to Thursday's interview. We— I was a bit starstruck because essentially I'm not giving anything away, I don't think, here, but there's a number 1 spot on the management podcast in the UK, and it kind of alternated over the last 6 weeks between this person and us. So yes, welcome Stephen Bartlett. No, he's not. We've got a great guy for you next week. Um, we are going to be doing something different, as I mentioned, in September— in August, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYeah, as of from next, next Tuesday, we're going to be taking a little bit of a, a bit of leave as well, which means that our Tuesdays are going to be a bit lighter, a bit more chatty. So with that, if you've got a question you've always wanted to ask Al and I, maybe it's about living abroad, maybe it's about working abroad, maybe it's about working with your partner and how you make all that work without killing each other, how to travel with dogs while working, um, any questions like that, we'd We'd be up for answering.
Al ElliottHow to do a pod on the road. How to do a podcast on the road. How to do a podcast on the road.
Leanne ElliottIf you want some insider podcasting secrets, we are not gatekeepers. We will tell you everything we know.
Becky SimmsOpen book.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And then probably some of the little funny things in there as well. We've had some people reach out to us recently who have got books being launched and stuff that we're very excited about. So, we might start some kind of summer book club maybe.
Al ElliottYeah, that's a great idea.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I don't know. It's still in development, but we'll be here next Tuesday in some form.
Al ElliottAnd what I can promise is that next Tuesday will also still be in development. It'll be in a flow. It'll be, it'll be liquid. We'll see how it goes.
Leanne ElliottLoosey-goosey.
Al ElliottLoosey-goosey. So do the things, you know, subscribe, like, tell all your friends, post about us on LinkedIn. Go and see Leanne. Go and check out Leanne on LinkedIn. She is killing it at the moment. Some of these posts she comes out with, I'll be honest, some of the posts she did like 12 months ago, I was like, oh, that's nice. These ones, every one that comes out, I read and I quite often comment, which is not like me.
Leanne ElliottYou don't often comment actually, but what you will say to me is you'll look at me and go, do you know what I like about your LinkedIn? I'll actually— no, my name's Leanne. Do you know what I like about your LinkedIn, Leanne? I actually want to read your shit. Thanks very much. And the BrewDog thing that we spoke about on the podcast, I posted about that and it kicked off.
Al ElliottYes, we're getting sued by BrewDog. So more on that next week. We'll see you soon. Bye-bye.
Leanne ElliottWe are joined by HR and— HR, who am I? We're joined by HR and recruitment specialists, The Curve Group, who will be doing something.
Al ElliottWe're going to get into all of that right after this very, very quick break from our sponsors. We're going to get into all of that just— we're going to get into all of that right after this very quick word from our sponsors. So here's Becky Simms from Reflect Digital and also Check out Aspirational Crew. So here's Becky Simms from Reflect Digital and also Aspiration Digital. So here's, so here's Becky Simms and check out what she's talking about with— so here's Becky Simms and check out what she's talking about with Aspiration Digital. Really cool initiative.