Episode 253 · 27 November 2025 · 1:04:36
What happens when you bet on people the world overlooks?: The story of Standout Socks, with Co-founder and MD, Christian Laing
Featuring Christian Laing
What happens when you bet on people the world overlooks?: The story of Standout Socks, with Co-founder and MD, Christian Laing
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Intro — 'I'm known for paid employment… it's a thing, for paying my staff'
How it started — wanting his brother Ross to have meaningful, paid work
interview#side-hustle#family#meaningful-work
The early days — launching during COVID as a side hustle
interview#covid#startup#side-hustle
Phoning Dragon's Den (and not getting a call back)
interview#dragons-den#pitching#rejection
Why bringing on more team members with learning challenges mattered
What the business looks like today
What employers misunderstand about people with learning disabilities
interview#learning-disabilities#employer-misconceptions#inclusion
'It's slavery. Let's call it what it is.' — on unpaid work placements
interview#unpaid-work#exploitation#slavery
The reality behind making it look easy
Why they chose a business model over charity
interview#business-model#charity-vs-business#social-enterprise
The moment Christian realised this was bigger than socks
interview#purpose#socks#realization
Creating space for someone to shine — and why that's leadership, not charity
interview#leadership#empowerment#charity
Bulgaria, ski reps, and shifting perspectives
interview#bulgaria#ski-reps#perspective
Where to find Stand Out Socks
Outro — what you can do differently
Show notes
What Happens When You Bet on People the World Overlooks? — with Christian Laing
Guest: Christian Laing — Co-founder and MD of Stand Out Socks, an ethical sock company built on a simple belief: everyone deserves meaningful, paid work.
It started with a brother. Christian's younger brother Ross has Down syndrome, and Christian wanted him to have what most of us take for granted — a real job, with real pay, and real purpose. When the world told him that wasn't possible, Christian decided to build it himself.
What began as a COVID-era side hustle is now a national mission. Stand Out Socks employs people with learning disabilities — including Ross, who's been with the company for two years and now trains the staff — and sells their products in over 210 Tesco stores across the UK and Ireland. But this isn't a feel-good story about charity. It's a story about what work can look like when you remove red tape, build roles around people, and refuse to exploit those who've been overlooked for too long.
Leanne sits down with Christian for a raw, unedited conversation about the early days, the struggle to keep the business alive, the moment he realised paid roles were possible, and the uncomfortable question he wants every leader to ask themselves: What assumptions am I making about who is capable?
Top 3 Takeaways
Build the role around the person, not the other way around. Stop asking "what can this person do?" and start asking "what is this person good at?" Christian's approach: find the strength, then shape the job to fit it.
Paid work is dignity, not charity. Unpaid "volunteering" placements and tokenism aren't kindness — they're exploitation dressed up as opportunity. If you're building a business that relies on unpaid labour, ask yourself who's really benefiting.
One decision can change everything. Christian didn't set out to change the system. He just wanted his brother to have a job. But that single decision — to do it himself when no one else would — became a movement. You don't need a grand plan to start; you need to start.
More From Christian Laing
- Stand Out Socks: standoutsocks.co.uk
- Christian on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/cdlaing
- Stand Out Socks on Instagram: instagram.com/standoutsocksuk
- Stand Out Socks on TikTok: tiktok.com/@standoutsocks
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I'm known for paid employment, for like, it's a thing, for paying my staff, uh, which is, um, apparently mad these days, uh, but obviously we're trying to change that. So yeah, we're known for paid employment for people with learning disabilities, uh, and we use the vehicles of socks to spread awareness of that and, uh, Down syndrome that my little brother has. When we started, it was just about Me and our kid having a— our kid's my little brother Ross, very northern, I'm sorry. Um, it was like, it was just about me, it was just about getting Ross work. That's how it started. And then he'd gone from 12 months not seeing anyone and his confidence going, and he's quite charismatic, our kid, and losing all that to him being back. And it was like, wow, this is, uh, this has really made a difference for him.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYou phoned the producers at Dragon's Den?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah.
Leanne ElliottLike, I'm waiting for someone to call me back, they haven't.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yes. Yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah, they didn't get back to us. Um, so I phoned and, uh, pretended that this guy had phoned me and why hasn't he like phoned me back? Um, and we were— then we were in within 3 days. So that Manchester United was a big one, and then obviously Dragon's Den, and now Tesco. And all these— we just got second in Santander X. Uh, we've got another big thing going on in the background that I can't divulge, but it's massive. So all these things are telling us, me, that we're going in the right direction. I hate to put people with Down syndrome or any learning disability in boxes, but ultimately When Ross walks into a room, people glow. People instantly smile. Like, it's uncanny what Ross has the ability to do. He makes people, and not just Ross, but other staff like Mark. Mark's 33. He's been with us 2 years now. Um, when he came, he was so quiet and now he's like so funny. You just can't stop him. He's, he's so—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)He's such a character to have around, you know what I mean?
Al ElliottThat's Christian Laing. He runs Standout Socks. Now, Standout Socks is a company famous for doing something apparently crazy, paying their staff. Now, I need to tell you something about this interview. Normally I edit the entire interview. I cut the pauses out, I smooth over any little stumbles, and Leanne and I usually record some segues so that it flows smoothly in a kind of a story arc. And I did start doing that with Christian. And then I stopped because Christian's telling this story perfectly. The pauses matter. So you are getting the full unedited 1-hour conversation Leanne had with Christian because this isn't a polished corporate story. This is a real-life story of a man who cared about his brother and actually did something about it.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name's Al, and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we're here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottSo let's hear Christian's incredible story in full after this very short break. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, Because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottYou said you was— it was started with, with your little brother, Ross, can you take me back to the moment when you kind of realized that he deserved better?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Obviously life's busy, um, careers. I used to be in event, um, I've had many careers, but, um, at the time of COVID I was a, um, a, I've even forgot, a project manager for an events company. Um, events stopped. Um, and my missus was Natalie, who's one of the other co-founders as well as me and A-Ross, um, was a PA for a construction company and construction stopped. So we were both furloughed, um, and we were bored. Um, we'd just become parents, um, and we wanted to get out the house a little bit, probably. Um, so we started selling. So there was loads and loads of— because everything had stopped, vintage companies had warehouses full and full, uh, full of stuff. Um, so we started buying Vintage clothes online and then selling it in individual. So we'd buy it in bulk and send it, sell it in individuals. Our Ross had moved into with my mum and dad, um, because Down syndrome was one below over 95s on the, um, the like list of it, who it could hurt the most. Um, Ross had had to move in with mum and dad. We had to take him shopping and then dissect everything to put it in the house.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Um, and then we got jabbed. We could bubble up, if that's what they called it. Um, and we were like, we'll just bring him in here and he can help, help us do this. And then he'd gone from 12 months not seeing anyone and his confidence going, and he's quite charismatic, our kid, and losing all that to him being back. And it was like, wow, this is, uh, this has really made a difference for him.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And then it was time to go back to work and it was like, maybe we could. So we had a look around, uh, we're, you know, we never professed that we're the first people that invented socks or the link between Down syndrome and socks. There was other people doing it, uh, but we were like, why not bring it to the UK? Um, so we started, we just bought, I mean, we, we, I don't like when you look back and think that was mad. We just, me and Natalie was just like, let's get a loan and just, just Roll the dice and see what happens. And that was it. We launched with 3 different styles. Um, and then we struggled for a couple of years, like any new business. Um, we were working 3 jobs to keep it alive. And then Dragons' Den happened. And then since then, we've been able to employ and, you know, we're now in Tesco and we're growing each year, which is nice. But now it's getting a bit too serious for me. So I think we're going to try and get a CEO over me so I can just be with the guys. Uh, 'cause that's what I love doing. Um, but yeah, in a nutshell, Ross, prior to that, had not really worked. Um, he'd paid for services to organizations to work in cafes and, um, build bird boxes and et cetera, where he'd paid to go and do that. And that used to frustrate me. Um, And now we do the opposite.
Leanne ElliottHow was that for, for you? Because it sounds like you said it started this little side hustle during COVID during a time where there was, there was so much and also so little going on to have this idea. And I, and I so get it when you see somebody getting that sense of joy and purpose and meaning from work and the difference that makes. How did that step go from, 'cause there's some big steps there in terms of seeing Ross starting to thrive in a place of work, to then founding a sock business or pivoting to a sock business that is centered around this purpose of employing other people with, um, learning disabilities, to then Dragon's Den. Like, talk to me about that period.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)We launched, and obviously when you launch a business like we did, we were— friends and family were ace at the start. They got us through the first 3 months, um, until we made big moves. And then Um, literally LinkedIn sent an email to Richard Arnold, which is the CEO of Manchester United, and he was like, love it. Like, we'll do it. And, uh, we got special dispensation from, um, Paul Smith to go into, um, the Manchester United megastore. Um, and that was when it was kind of the penny dropped and it was like, we might, we might have something here. Um, so we did Manchester United within a year. Um, but it was still a struggle. The day-to-day was that we were learning, like, um, and we applied the year before for Dragons' Den. We didn't get in. Um, we were too early on, um, with, um, we didn't have enough, uh, accounts. And then we sent off and applied for the second year. They didn't get back to us. Um, so I phoned and, uh, Pretended that this guy had phoned me and why hasn't he like phoned me back? Um, and we were, then we were in within 3 days.
Leanne ElliottSo you phoned, you phoned the, the producers at Dragon's Den?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah.
Leanne ElliottLike, I'm waiting for someone to call me back. They haven't.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yes. Yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah. Uh, I knew it. We were, we were built for, for Dragon's Den. It was, uh, something that we had to do. So I knew that once that we were probably at the bottom of the pile of And of something. Um, so yeah, I phoned him then, um, and then Dragons then happened. And then from there, we've been able to develop from there. But you know what, what started from Ross— not just Ross, gonna just say it's not just for me and Natalie as well. Um, obviously to see the change in Ross was great, but I get loads out of what I do. You know, this is not work for me.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Um, and Natalie's the same. Like, obviously we put everything into it, but it's, it's a joy. Uh, I literally get to mess around with my mates all day in work. Um, and that's— I'm thankful for that. Um, I get shouted at sometimes from Natalie for not taking it too seriously, but other than that, it's ace. Um, and then to see not just— again, not just Ross, but other staff like Mark, Mark's 33.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)He's been with us 2 years now. Um, when he came, he was so quiet, and now he's like so funny. You just can't stop him. He's, he's so, he's such a character to have around, you know what I mean? And, and as we build, more characters will come on board. We need to get better with, um, uh, with telling these stories of, of our staff, I think. Um, so there's stuff that we need to do as an organization.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)But ultimately, we're affecting stuff and, and, and changing a few opinions. And, you know, sometimes our Ross making a cup of tea is the biggest thing in the world for people to see. They're like, what, can you make a brew? I'm like, it's a milky tea. To be fair, it is a milky tea, but yeah, he makes a brew. Uh, he's not the best brew maker, I'm not gonna lie about that, but yeah, he makes his own dinner.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)He makes, he makes a brew, he makes the staff a drink when they come in. He trained all the staff, um, and, and people didn't think that was possible, you know.
Leanne ElliottWhy was it important to you and, and to Natalie to bring other members of the team on who have learning challenges? Because you could have just said, well, you know, we've created this role for Ross and that's awesome. Why was it important for you to open up that opportunity to more people?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Because we see Standout as a home. Um, for people that struggle to find a home, um, something for them to be proud of. Um, the guys put stickers on all their work, um, that show, you know, that they're so proud of what they do. Mark, not to go back to him, but counts every box he makes, um, will tell you all day how many boxes he's making. Uh, he came in last week and give out— made everyone ill because he wouldn't have a day off when he was ill. Um, but, you know, for the, for the first 4 years, we've been making it a lot about myself, Ross, Nat, not so much. Me and Ross are like the, the front of this. Um, but I think it's time for us to, you know, not completely go, but tell everybody else's story. You know, it's, uh, you know, Oliver gets the bus to work on his own. You know, people wouldn't think that's possible. And by telling these stories where, where the next generation of people with Down syndrome or learning disabilities are seeing what's possible and having something to aspire to be. And when Ross was young, that there was none of that. So they're seeing George Webster, Ellie, um, Maddie in America, John in America, you know, these, all these.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)People in the public eye now with Down syndrome especially, um, and parents with young children. Not that, you know, when, when you see it, you believe it. Do you know what I mean? Before, before 10, 15 years ago, there was nothing to see. You know, people walk past our stand in, in Tesco every day and represent— the representation of people with Down syndrome is there to millions of people.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)as they walk past. You know, it's not just about the socks and selling the socks. They're seeing the faces of people with Down syndrome front and center. Um, so yeah, there's that. There's that. It's not so scary anymore. You know, I'm, you know, I come at this as a sibling. I'm a brother. But, uh, you know, I, you know, can 99%— my mum and dad would've been scared when Ross was born. Uh, and there'll be millions of parents out there that would be scared to go into the unknown and And by doing what we're doing and others doing the same, like, it doesn't become the unknown anymore, you know.
Leanne ElliottWhat does the business look like today in terms of the number of, of team members that you have, and what's the representation amongst the team in terms of people who have Down syndrome or learning difficulties?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)So there's myself, uh, and Natalie and Ross, uh, as the co-founders, and then my Auntie Lisa, um, looks after the team. Um, so in the team, um, with Ross and Me and Talisa, they look after Joe, Martha, Oliver, and Mark, who have Down syndrome. Um, and then this October we brought on a, uh, marketing manager. So the whole team that, that, that does the, the socks, the socks side of stuff is all led by people with learning disabilities. And then the, the back, um, Natalie does everything. Uh, I do a little bit, I do bits and bobs, uh, and then Michael does the marketing side of things. Um, and then in the new year, we're going to get, um, a business to business manager, I think. Uh, and then by October, a CEO. Uh, and then that the back will be built then to then start to inflate the— so Lisa goes, emigrates to Australia in, uh, December.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Uh, so I'm going to go back with a team and, um, a couple of the guys, I won't name who because I know this is going out prior to them, uh, being told. Um, the idea is to make a couple of the guys supervisors, um, and to build their teams below them. Um, so yeah, it's exciting because again, you know, we, we, people don't think that's possible. Look, we, we use, we build.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)the roles around people. So, um, we've got 2 characters there that I know and have full trust in that can do that. Um, and we use like, um, scanner systems. So you just need to teach the scanner system and then no order ever goes out wrong because the guys work independently. They don't, you know, nobody's like walking around with them checking what everyone's being, yeah, picking up. It's just these scanners. And when they get it wrong, they know what they're doing wrong. And if they ever need help, they just ask up.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)But the guys work independently.
Leanne ElliottWhat is it that other business owners, entrepreneurs, business leaders, employers misunderstand about people with Down syndrome and learning disabilities? What are they not getting?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I just think they need to give it a chance. I just, they just, I think they see so much red tape, they see so many barriers that sometimes it's just easier to go, it's just not worth the But it is, you know, it's, it really is. Um, and if you build that again, if you build the roles around people, you can, you can build whatever role you, you're in, and it'll only be a positive for your organization. Um, more than capable, but it's not just the capableness. And I hate to put people with Down syndrome or any learning disability in boxes, but ultimately, when Ross walks into a room, people glow.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)People instantly smile. Like, it, it's uncanny what Ross has the ability to do. He makes people— and not just Ross, again, I hate putting people with Down syndrome in boxes, but every time one of our staff members walks into a room, it's just— It sends happiness everywhere. It's like happiness, happiness, ping, ping, ping, and Is just to have that as an ability is unreal. Forget about the, the work side of things. They're just the, the personality in your organization to make people happy, uh, and more engaged is incredible. Um, and then, you know, again, Down syndrome isn't one thing. People think that you've got— if, if you've got Down syndrome, you're this one thing. It's not. It's not.
Leanne ElliottIt's—
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)people with Down syndrome have different personalities, are capable of different things. Um, you know, to, for example, with Mark, just likes building boxes. I could— I could get Mark work for 5 hours in front of him, and he will work nonstop to the best quality, um, for 5 hours, just telling me about his day, but he won't stop working. Getting him to sit down is difficult.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)For his dinner even. Okay. Whereas Martha, Martha's a bit more, wants the chat, wants the, you know, so she does the, she'll go do the scanning and the orders because she wants to, you know, be a, be about the, the chat and stuff and doesn't need that one job, that repetitive job. But Mark's been doing this repetitive job now for 2 years and he loves it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)That you can't find that. Like, you, you, I, I do it for 20 minutes, I'm like, oh, like, I don't want to do it anymore. Matt, 2 years, 5 hours, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, talking all the way through it, doesn't bother him. Joe's, Joe's the same. Joe can just rattle through boxes after box after box after box. Um, so, you know, no sickness. No lateness. The guys want to be here, which is difficult to find in employees these days. Um, for like, it's a happy place. It really is. Like, they bring so much on that, on that side of things. But, you know, just get the job done. Like, it's people like, even people are coming to say, how would you do it? And I'm like, how do you do what?
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And they're like, well, how do you employ people with learning disabilities? And then how do you pay them? Just employ them and then pay them. Like, there's no, there's no art to this. Like, you either want to do it or you don't want to do it. If you don't want to do it, that's fine. That's on you. You know, different, different companies, organizations do different things. I get it. I'm not putting that pressure on anyone. Um, but we, we're, we're— It's not hard. Really not hard. Um, the, the only thing I would say is because of the way we're set up, we couldn't find anyone that was doing it the way we were doing it. So we work with an HR company, um, that has inbuilt an HR processing for people with learning disabilities. And that's because, um, when our staff sign contracts, everyone has contracts here. They're not just, you know, we can't just say, right, bye. You know, everyone has full rights here.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Um, but parents want to know what's going on, um, usually with people with learning disabilities, but they have the right to say no. You know, if, if Mark doesn't want his mum to come and sit in study, you know, that's up to him. That's— and, and parents are told that from the start. Um, so, but, you know, parents are the parents that we have erased. I'm not saying, but that, you know.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)We had to inbuilt that because parents will ring and say, like, what's going on? And I'll be like, you need to speak to Mark. I can't speak, you know, that's the only difference I'd say. But, you know, it's not hard, is it?
Leanne ElliottI mean, you say it's not hard, Christian, but it's, it's a stretch sometimes to just get an employer to, to treat, um, employees as adults, which sounds like what you're doing with, with your team. And, and there's, you know, there's an added layer to it as well. I, I totally get what you're meaning about you don't want to Kind of put people with learning disabilities in a box. Yet there is such a heart and an empathy that I've experienced being around people with learning disabilities. My best friend has a son who has significant challenges, and he is the sweetest, most beautiful young man. We had a Rottie that was a wasn't a big fan of people and particularly wasn't a big fan of, of men. So we were really nervous when he came to visit. Um, and Nathan just kind of walked in, got on his knees, stayed still, and our dog just kind of was drawn to him before it, like a minute later he was on his back getting belly rubbed. And there was just a connection that, that, yeah, that it sounds, sounds so silly, but our dog just got instantly. He was like, you're, you're, you're a good person. Yeah. Good heart.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)There's no alternate, there's no ulterior motive. You know, like in some workplaces, you know, people are trying to do this, people are trying to do that, you know, talking about— there's not— there's— everything comes from such a beautiful place, um, which can help any atmosphere in any place. You know, if you could bottle it and sell it, you would, wouldn't you? Um, so.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And like you say, with animals, again, you had the hate box put in, but like, you know, Ross is like the animal whisperer. He's, uh, they can sense, animals can probably sense good in people, I guess. Like, there's no malice there. Um, so again, it's, it, I don't, it's so hard not to, you don't want to put people with learning disabilities in boxes. Uh, but I suppose that's the positive box, at least to Yeah. To do it. But again, just the stress. It's not, you know, I can, I can speak for Down syndrome. It's not one thing, you know, they're not always happy. You know, Ross isn't always happy. Let me tell you, when he, when I, I asked him to work a Sunday once because we needed to go and do something in the football museum, didn't want to do it. He wasn't happy about it and he booted off all day. Right. The people with Down syndrome are not always happy. They're not eternal children. Uh, they like a beer. Ross drinks beer. Uh, you know, they're not, they're not kids either. He doesn't need your awws. He really doesn't. Like, if people aww him, I'm like, don't aww him. He's got the greatest life ever. Um, but like, it's a change of— listen, I'm not saying that's bad, but it— I think what we're trying to do here is empower and say, look, You know, I, we, we appreciate that as a society we want to protect people. You know, there is a, it's not, again, for as a societal thing, it's, we're not coming from a bad place. It's, uh, we want to look after and protect and, but, but, you know, there's a point where it gets to babying and, you know, don't talk to me. He's a person. And again, I don't, I don't think.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)People, when they do it, come— I like to think they don't come from a bad position. They just, they're just not educated, one. They've never been around it, two, because it's never been represented until the last 10 years, I'd say. So as a society, we're going to go on this roller coaster of change, and that's great.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's Us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work.
Al ElliottAnd we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of pop culture. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWe connected over the Waitrose story that came out about a young man with autism, was it, who was then looking for paid work after being there for years, and then they ended up basically letting him go. Why is that? And particularly with organisations that on the surface seem to be Ethical organizations, responsible businesses. How is this acceptable when actually it just sounds to me like exploitation?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It's slavery. Let's call it what it is. It's slavery. Uh, they do it because they can get away with it. Um, and I don't think you— I think with Waitrose, the surface was scratched. I don't, you know, this is not just Waitrose. This is— there's a lot of organizations that have that portray, uh, an inclusive workforce, etc., uh, but people don't realize that the inclusive workforce is being treated differently than the non-inclusive workforce, however you want to put it. It's families, people with learning disabilities have nothing else, uh, there's nowhere for them to do, nowhere for, you know, nowhere for them to go, um, so they're taken advantage of.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And that's the be-all and end-all of it. Um, there's no government kind of legislation on volunteering. You know, 600 hours is not volunteering. 100 hours might be volunteering, but there's no like progress from the volunteering. So there's no like, right, okay, you've done 100 hours. Let's sit and have a chat about how you've got on. Maybe we could do 50%. Um, voluntary, 50% paid now, right? You've done 250 hours. You don't, you know, you're an asset to the company. Let's, let's go from there. But the problem is, um, because there's nothing else, if we, and they know it, there's nothing else. If we all gather together and say, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, it just stops. And then what are families Meant to do then, do you know what I mean? It's so— there's no alternative. There's no alternative at the moment. You know, that's just Waitrose. These organizations that people would pay to go there for the day, build stuff, and then the organization sells it. Again, for me, that's not right. But that's the way it's been done for 30, 40 years.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Um, and until there's an alternative, that will continue. And hopefully Standout would be that alternative. Um, but we're only small. I mean, you know, we need, we need to get people to get behind us to build, to build to that. But there's literally nothing out there, Leanne. It's, it's not like there's an option, you know. Families need, you know, what, what's What are people meant to do, just sit at home all day? Um, so I'm not here to discredit or poo-poo or Waitrose. All I'm here is to show there's an alternative. And, and I think that's the right way. I might be wrong.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)You know, but I think the way that we do it here is the correct way of treating people. Uh, uh, and the way that we should go as people. Um, and there's other ways that you could do it. I'm not saying my, my, my way's right. I'm just saying that's the way that we can continue to do it. And, and that's what we're built on. That, that's, that's, that's the cause of, but until we get big enough to, you know, offer loads of people, loads of paid roles, then there's no alternative.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)So if you go through HR, they just shut their volunteering system down and people have got nothing to do. Um, and then they'll be paying other organizations to go there for the day to build or to learn skills as learners, or however you want to call it, paying £60 to £100 a day to go there. Um, and again, it's like.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Up there, you know, what, what's after that? Once they've got the skills and you call— you can't call them trainers for 10 years and take £100 off them a week. And even if they can't turn up that week, take the £100 because they need to keep their place. Um, but that's the way it's done and we just offer the alternative. If, if people are fine with that, then that's on them, innit?
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)But this is the— so this is the thing, Leanne. So as much as we made this look relatively easy, it's not been easy. It's been so hard for 26 months. Me, Ross, Natalie didn't get paid from Standout. You know, we had to work 3 jobs to keep it afloat. Now, at any point in them 26 months, we could have changed to a CIC or a charity, got loads of people to run around Manchester for us, um, got loads of funding from the government.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Uh, and then we could have filled it with volunteers and I could have 78 shifts here with 1,000 people working for free. Um, and I could sit in this office, put my feet up and take, you know, 70 grand a month with my feet up. That's what we could do. But that seems, that, that seems That I'm giving up on Ross. I'm giving up on the guys. Like, it's like saying, that's all you're worth. I could make it easy. We could make this so easy. Do you know what I mean? We could just switch tomorrow and this, you know, fill it with volunteers, stop paying the staff, um, get people to run around.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Um, to donate and get the— we could even get the volunteers to pay to come in. I could get all the guys to pay 60 quid a shift to come in to work and call them trainers. Um, so again, I'm not saying that's, that, that's wrong. I won't do it. But this, what we're building here just seems to be—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Different and disruptive and, and able to, to get, to get the point over a little bit more of, uh, this is empowerment as well. This is not just— and as a, you know, all that's happening is money's going from our taxes into government to social services to these organizations back into government. It's just a cycle of, of dysfunction.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Um, and I think people are waking up to it and it just needs, you know, and, and sometimes I do worry by speaking like this, this is really open speaking, by the way, that these organizations will close. But at the end of the day, it's just, just, it's just a, another, a service-led business that's, you know, someone else will pop up. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's money in it, so people are gonna do it. If there was no money in it, people wouldn't do it. So I just think we got to a point where there was some lovely little organizations and then they started paying people and building monsters. Um, I mean, like senior management and et cetera. And then they have to pay these wage bills before anybody that needs help gets help. Um, and it's, it's all that for me. There's gotta be something different because it's dysfunction at its highest.
Leanne ElliottYou said that we could take this route. We could set up as a charity or a nonprofit and take all the government funding, charge people to come in. Ross deserves better than that. What's the distinction for, for Ross to experience an organization like yours?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Ross has done all that. Ross has paid to get— so, so Ross has worked in a cafe before. He paid to go and work there based on training or, uh, whatever you wanna learn as, whatever you wanna cuddle it up as. But everyone's going there to see Ross. People are not using that cafe because it does Fantastic toast. They're just not. They're going based on the staff. Like, people don't buy from Standout based on the fact that— I mean, the socks are amazing, just like me. I just want to throw that in. But people don't buy off Standout because of our socks. People stand by from Standout because of our staff and our mission. Um, so Ross is filling a cafe. And he's paying to go. I'm like, this doesn't make sense. How's this making sense? You know, Mark, work, whatever you wanna call it, for, pays 60 quid to go somewhere on a different day. He pays 60 quid to go. He makes bird boxes or, you know, tidies the gardens up. And people, and then they sell the bird boxes. They don't get any money from that either. And then, um, people donate and buy off them based on their stuff. They don't buy from them because it's a fantastically cut edge. So that drives me bonkers.
Leanne ElliottI'm sorry, Christian, what the fuck? They sell the Bird Boxes and then still no money goes to the—
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)No, he pays to go. This is, yeah, this is not. This is, this is, this doesn't just happen around here. This is UK wide. Yeah, but, but, but I, listen, I had a, I won't mention any names, but I had a conversation with someone recently in regards to this. And I said, I put it to the way I put it to you then. Look, I can switch this. I can switch Standout to a charity or CIC, take a load of funding. put my feet up, bloody well, the way I said it to you. Uh, and his response to me was, I'm deeply offended by that. And I'm like, offended by what? And he was like, offended with what you just said. And I'm like, I'm just telling you what we could do. If the, you know, if that offends you, then that's on you, not me. Um, but I, listen, I get. There's loads of ways of looking at it.
Leanne ElliottSorry, just, he was offended because he thinks like CICs, charities, is a positive way to go.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)No, he ran one.
Leanne ElliottRight, right.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)So he ran one. So, so that, that, that's why not many people are, uh, you know, we're disruptive. I just said, I just said, I just, we're disruptive with stuff and, and we've been a bit vanilla for many years now, but it's slowly but surely. Frustrating me more and more. Um, so sometimes it's, especially for me, I'm, you know, as much as I'm the director of Standout, um, you know, a lot of this is personal. Um, my personal opinions. And again, I'm not saying that I'm, we're doing it right. I'm just saying we're doing it different and the public will choose one day. Um, and if someone wants to sit, if you want to get someone from one of them, these organizations on one of these, and we can sit and talk about it, I'm quite happy to do that as well.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Um, but they won't. Um, so yeah, but I, I, it's probably— I probably make things a lot black and white and easier than they should be. Like, people say, how do you pay your staff? I'm like, you just pay your staff. People are like, how do you employ people with disabilities? I'm just like, you just employ them. Um, so there's probably more to it than that, but from what I'm standing from the outside, until someone wants to take me through it. Um, that's the way it looks to me.
Leanne ElliottWhat blows my mind is that there's ones with a commercial aspect where they're selling things, where they're— and also, um, if, if you're— even if you're a charity, can you still not pay people for their work?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah, charities— I'm not saying that charities don't have people with learning disabilities on payrolls. They should have more. Yeah. If you have a look at the picture of our Christmas do, and another charity Christmas Day, you'd think they were the charity, uh, you'd think that we were the charity and they were the— do you know what I mean?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Like, it's, it's, it's bonkers. Um, how can you preach about Down syndrome and employment of Down syndrome when you don't do it yourself? It's, again, it's, it's not my— we just do what we do. Um, and there's some great charities doing great things out there. I'm not saying that everyone's bad. I'm just saying that people need to have a look at themselves. If people are paying top whack for a CEO, i.e., anything north of 60 grand, um, which I get, people in charity need to have bills to pay. They have, um, kids to feed. Get all that. But if I'm paid top whack, then I need to perform like I'm top whack, which means that, you know, the people that the, the organization's set up for don't pay for the services.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)You should be able to come up with innovative ways to make them services free if you are paid a high salary as a CEO of a charity. Um, so I mean, we pay VAT and tax and, you know, all that, um, a PAYE and, and whatever, but We can still not just give it to the guys for free, but pay them for every hour they work there. And we don't pay them minimum wage. They're paid over minimum wage, um, because they are the reason that people buy off us.
Al ElliottWow.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)How could I sit here and justify to myself making Mark pay to come in here and then every box he does and sells He doesn't get anything. People don't go to, do you know what I mean? People don't buy whatever. I won't say what it is, but people don't buy it because it's, it's, it's a great product. As much as it is a great product, I'm not poo-pooing the product, but people buy from Standout because of the staff. So, but again, because there's loopholes and stuff, I could turn this into whatever I wanted tomorrow and, and put my feet up and take it easy and we We're swimming upstream. Ultimately, it's not— again, it's not— it just fixes a lot of this dysfunctional wheel of, you know, where taxes are going, and it's just not fixing anything. It's been 60 years and it's getting worse, you know.
Leanne ElliottWas there a moment where you realized— and your socks are fabulous, let's just say that for absolute sure— Truth for sure. Is there a moment though when you realized that people cared as much about the mission as they did the product?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Um, so in the—
Al Elliottin—
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)so we open in October, and in the first year we raised money for our local food bank with the Christmas socks. We've had— so it's important— again, I've gone off on a bit quick tangent and I'll come back. So, um, So every year, so this, this year we're raising money for Cash for Kids, which is, um, uh, a charity, uh, that helps kids wake up to something on Christmas Day that won't necessarily would. Um, and we do a Christmas sock and we give a pound per sock to the, the charity. Uh, and it's important that just because Ross has Down syndrome and we're based on, you know, people with learning disabilities, that we can't give back. And And, and we can't— can you imagine like a child on Christmas Day opening a present and then realizing where it's come from and then holding that in such high regard and, uh, and seeing the, the, the, the, someone with a learning disability give back and doesn't just rely on, do you know what I mean? It's that, that's, that, that, that's, that's why we do it. The first year we opened in October and the first year we raised £3,500 for the food bank.
Al ElliottWow.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)A terrible business decision. Uh, we lost a lot of money doing it. Um, but it just felt the right thing to do. Natalie was pulling her hair out. Um, but through that, we went on, um, Granada Reports, um, which is like a local, um, ITV news station or whatever it is. Um, and we gained a guy called Mr. B.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Now, Mr. B is the biggest Standout fan you could ever imagine, to the point where he's got 500 pairs of our socks in his drawer. And some of them, he's keeping them as collector's items because he really believes in what we're doing. So he's got every single— he's got a pair of socks that he wears and a pair of socks that he just keeps with the clip on so that, you know, I don't know what he's going to do with it, but he's going to sell them when they're like 20, 30 years thinking that they're going to be worth something. I don't know what he's doing. Um, but he came to see us and was like, this is incredible. Like, this is what you're doing here. Like, I've looked into it and it's like— and this is before we even went down the lines of employing people, um, into payrolls, etc. Um, but he was like, I love it. I just absolutely love it. I just needed to come and tell you that I love it. Um, so that Manchester United was a big one, and then obviously Dragons' Den, and now Tesco. And all these— we just got second in Santander X. Uh, we've got another big thing going on in the background that I can't divulge, but it's massive. So all these things are telling us, me, that we're going in the right direction. Um, and people are ready to go on this journey with us. And I think for people, because of the way the socks are designed, the socks are designed to start conversations. And, you know, you show your sock, someone asks a question, and then you get into a debate or a conversation or whatever it is. Um, people feel part of what we're doing. Um, they don't just feel like they're buying, it's like they're cheering on and they're getting involved and Um, and the rate— it's our customers that drive this. It's incredible to— some of the conversations that people must have out there. Like, again, I was at Santander Direct last week and, um, there was 2 people with our socks on that didn't even know I was going to be there. Do you know, stuff like that? And you're just like, wow, um, that's incredible. Um, and ultimately, You know, as a brand, we've been— whether that's clever or, um, lucky, um, we've left socks out of everything on the logo and the business name. And, um, ultimately we could go into anything, um, and, and the logo just be based on, um, paid employment for people with learning disabilities. Um, And that's for, you know, I've got these visions in my head of, um, helping other families and just saying, um, here's X amount of money. Um, let's, you know, your Patricia, I don't know, loves to do this. Let's show you how to do it. Um, you take, we'll put the money up front. You don't have to pay us back. We'll, uh, have half the business, you'll have half the business, we'll teach you the business, and then pop up little, um, businesses under the Standout brand like that. Um, we've started doing something like that already. We do something called Project Empowerment for the 21 days up to, um, World Down Syndrome Day, which is 21st of March. What we do is we give 21 people 100 pairs of socks for free.
Leanne ElliottWow.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Um, and then they sell them to raise— not just raise awareness for Down syndrome, but some of them get really into it, which is ace to see. So they can learn how to run a business, learn how to handle money, um, learn how to do all everything that business brings. Um, and then at the end of that, they keep the money. They can either start their own business. No one did last year, but you know, it's there. A lot of them went on like Um, high ropes courses, and, you know, they just use the money that, that's theirs. You know, they've sold the socks, it's theirs to, to, to use. So that's something that we'd like to build on as well. Um, and then sport is probably something that we'd really like to get into in a sense of there was nowhere for Ross to go when he was younger, um, to play football, etc. Um, so we do a lot with Brentford Penguins, which is, um, a team down south, um, Down syndrome football team down south. Um, but we could probably pop teams up everywhere and have a little league and, you know, stuff like that. We had— we did the Standout Cup a couple of years ago between Burnley and Brentford, which was ace, and, and that was the spark of the idea. But we need to get a bit more behind us before we go down that route. Um, So yeah, there's loads, there's just loads we can do with this.
Al ElliottIt's—
Leanne ElliottAnd it's so, it's such exciting stuff. And I'm sitting here going, how can I get involved? How can I, how can I start to support this? Because I mean, again, I'm thinking about our Nathan and he makes bracelets and I must have about 25 now because every time I see him, he gives me another one. But they're so, he's so patient with them and he's so creative with it. I'm like, that would make an ace business.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Did tell me about that. I had the same conversation with a, a young— I was at a party and one of my mates brought me over to a couple and it was like they were saying that your— their daughter's leaving primary school to go to a special school at the end of the year. And I was like, and then we were talking and, um, I was like, well, what's she like doing? Uh, and she liked doing nails. I was like, just start a nail business now. I was like, because I think again, It's different for me as a sibling. We've never had really any in 4 years bad negative comments on, you know, people that think that there'd be the odd knobhead out there that's like, that, that wants to be a tool. Haven't really had any of that in 4 years. Like, we were ready for it before we started. I said to my mum and dad, look, Ross is going to be put out there. You need to be comfortable with that because he might get Some tool that wants to say something, but we're not really saying it's not happened, but you'd think that it would happen more. Um, so, so just get it out there. Just, just do it. Like, people are ready for it. Like, like you're saying, people want to buy from ethical. Imagine the love that goes into that bracelet. Like, I just sat here imagining it. Like, it's— imagine filming that and putting it on. Like, people love it. Like, Um, so, but, but, you know, you, you're— I love— this is what I love. I love that you're walking away from this conversation pumped.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)To what could have been a barrier. You're like, what's he good at? He's good at it, right? Fuck it, let's do it. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, you're walking away from this conversation with me thinking what the possibilities rather than we can't, can't do that, we can't do that. Do you know what I mean? It's sex.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And, and that is credit to, to you and Ross and Natalie and the incredible business that you're building. And, um, I'm full of support for you. Honestly, anything I can ever do ever to support you, I am there with bells on because I think this is really stuff that's going to actually change the world in a meaningful way. And with that in mind, If there's someone listening who's got an idea that is, is this some kind of ethical business, maybe employing people in a, in a similar way, what advice would you give them to, to start something that, that will be meaningful?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I think you've got to do it with a standpoint of the right, of why you're doing it. And like I said previous, you could make this so easy. Or you could make a stand. And, you know, if you want to make a stand, then you're in it for the right reasons. And it's going to be difficult at first. Um, but ultimately you've got to see the, the positiveness of what you're growing. Like, I do this because I see, I see what's coming. Like, you know, when it's, when it's been dark and we've turned over 30 quid in a month.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Like, do you know what I mean? Like, that, that's happened. Um, but I was always like, this just feels right. Like, it's like paying people feels right. Um, and, and like I said, it's just like the guys skip in here, skip out of here, you know. They said we're not even just— we're not even talking about that side of things, you know what I mean? Like, Yeah. Yeah, and we get so many emails from people that have just had a baby with Down syndrome and they're like, just come across this, someone's just put it on my desk, and it's not so scary anymore. This is not, you know, just, just seeing the future is not so scary anymore. Um, and again, like, people are ready for it. Like, it's not Like, it's just, you know, people beat up us as humans, you know, and, and sometimes focus on some of the negative stuff that, that we do as a race. But fundamentally, we're all right. We're, we're, we're, do you know what I mean? Like, there's some bad apples out there, but fundamentally, if you stripped it back, we're, we're not that bad. And People love the underdog as well. It's like, do you know what I mean? Like, people love to see someone who's told that they can't do something, or someone, someone like— people will cheer you on. Everyone's cheering you on. Everyone wants you to do well because people like the underdog. People fundamentally like someone who's gonna go, fuck it, you know, I'll show you. Um, And I wouldn't say we're the underdog, we're just doing it. Like, you can make it as hard as you want, but we just, just do it. Like, it's not that difficult. It can be as difficult as you want it to be. Um, so just try it, but you've got to stick with it. It's not like— look, we were driving around in a Smart car for 18 months, um, with 2 seats, uh, with 3 of us. Um, but again, you can Ultimately, long term, the way that we do this, I feel, will win. Okay. Compared to everything else. Now, it's a bit difficult at the start, and it was difficult at the start, but change doesn't come when it's easy. Like, no change comes out of it being easy. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, you're not going to change stuff doing it the easy way because you're just going to do what everybody else did, does, if, and does. and do if you do it that way. So nothing changes. But if you like, if you, you know, go against the grain, people notice. And they might not notice at first, but, you know, slowly but surely they'll, they'll work it out. Um, and this, you know, this is bigger than me, Ross, and Nat now. This is, this is, this is, you know, we're gonna get someone proper in. I just wanna, I just wanna be with the guys. I don't want to do all this business stuff, man. Um, uh, I got asked the question last week and I'm like, I'm just so northern. And, you know, sometimes it's like, look, I believe in what we do, I believe in myself, but sometimes like people overcomplicate it, like you're saying, with big words. And, and, uh, and I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about, mate. Like, just dumb it down for me and we can have a proper conversation here. Other than that, I'm just getting on with the day. Just leave me alone. Um, but I need someone that understands all that because people keep asking me it. So I'll get, I'll send somebody else to do it who knows the big words. Um, but yeah, you know, it'd be ace. It'd be ace to like through Tesco, we're now starting to affect our, um, supply line. So we have a factory in Turkey now that, that pay, that pays people with learning disabilities.
Al ElliottWow.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Um, handling all our stuff for Tesco. So we're starting to affect our, our supply line now, which is ace. Um, but imagine, like, imagine, I mean, again, we think in the UK we're so far forward societal. Imagine what this would do in an Eastern Bloc country, or, you know what I mean? Like, uh, you know, I don't want to go through countries, but where they're not as far, um, with their views on this, just to see it and be like— I could just imagine like a mother who is having thoughts of termination, or, you know, having thoughts of giving the kid up from seeing this and going, shit, it's not that bad. Because the unknown, it's just the unknown. That's all it is. It's just the unknown. Um, so yeah, that's probably a bit deep, but you know what I mean.
Leanne ElliottAnd the thing is, well, I mean, we should say that, that you have lived in Bulgaria for, for a while as well, haven't you?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)How do you know that?
Leanne ElliottIs that because I know everything? No, because— yeah, so I know that because, um, because— yeah, but go on. What did— what do you— how would you— what difference would it make if you applied that in somewhere like Bulgaria? And for reference, I live in Bosnia as well, so I'm also kind of part of that world where things are still, still a bit underdeveloped.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)So I used to, uh, I used to be, I used to be a ski rep and we used to collect people's old stuff at the end of their holiday or stuff they were getting rid of. And then we'd take it to an orphanage. Um, and predominantly this orphanage was just full of people with learning disabilities, um, that people had given up on. Uh, and I'm not pooping, like, I get it. I'm not, I'm not here to judge anyone. Um, Yeah. I'm certainly not, but just for, for them to be viewed differently, uh, as, I don't wanna say useful cuz that's not the right word, but like not just discarded. Do you know what I mean? Not just like, you know, you're not gonna have a life because I've never seen anyone like you have a life. So I don't know anything in the future, so.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Like, this is, do you know what I mean? It's, um, again, I don't know the terminology. I'm not a wordsmith. I struggled with English at school. So I, but I get like when, when I have these conversations, I'm like, and people trip over the words. I'm like, don't trip over your words with me. Just say it. You're not going to offend me. Yeah. If I ever think that you're going to, you know, so when you speak, you're not speaking in malice. Again, I probably just got a nice view of of people. So when you speak, I see people tripping over the words. Well, I just say it doesn't matter. Like, I'd rather you speak about it than not speak about it because you're scared of what you're gonna say. Like, you're not gonna offend me or my brother or any of the staff. Uh, if, if you do say something that I think is borderline, then I might send you an email after it and just say, look, maybe use this terminology if you take it or not. I'm not— no, I didn't invent the words.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)So it's not for me to tell people what words to use, but we just need to talk a bit more about stuff like this without feeling that we're going to offend a load of people with a few words because none of us invented words. Like, none of us. Like, some people are just not educated on what they're going to say to offend. Like, people are not doing it on purpose. And you can see people stumbling. We're in a conversation with someone and our kid's there or something like that, and they're fumbling around words. You're like, don't worry, it's fine. Relax.
Leanne ElliottI like that.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)'Cause I do it. I fumble around words. I get the words wrong sometimes. It's fine.
Leanne ElliottIn terms of, I just wanna give a big up to where everyone can get your socks because this is going out at the perfect time of year, just as we're on the Christmas run-up. Everyone's looking for those stocking fillers. Every member of my family is getting one. Where can people go to get your socks?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)So, uh, either Tesco, um, in Tesco, we in 210 Tesco stores up and down the UK and Ireland. Um, but if you want something a bit more gifty, uh, we do gift boxes on the website, uh, www.standoutsocks.co.uk. Um, uh, everything that comes from the website comes in boxes. People love boxes. It's a, it's a strange thing. People love boxes. Um, Because it's a bit more gifty, I think. So yeah, uh, we do Christmas boxes. We did— again, we're doing the Christmas socks with, uh, Cash for Kids. Um, but yeah, yeah, I have a, I have a lot there.
Leanne ElliottAnd as well, for, for parents listening who, who were really interested in either— I don't understand, I'm sure you get loads of interest for, for jobs in your place, either there or getting involved in the entrepreneurial aspects that you've mentioned in the, um, the drive that you do in March, what's the best way for them to get in touch, find out more?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Uh, so the first, uh, what I'd say the first part, so it's add us on social media. Um, obviously we're quite localized at the moment, um, in the, in the Northwest. Like when we did our last one, we're in Warrington, um, and we were getting people from like Stoke and Leeds apply for jobs because again, there's nothing out there. Um, So, uh, I'd add us on social media to see what's coming up. Um, I'd go to Scope, MainCat, DSA, people like that who have work fit programs, because that's what they're set up to do. Um, in the meantime, uh, the entrepreneurial aspects, um, happy to help. I've got no money to put in at the moment, but, but, um, Happy to. I can't say I'll get back to you immediately, but, uh, listen, you can talk to me all day about it, or you can just do it. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, you, you can worry yourself sick over just little stuff, or just go and do it. And then if it doesn't work, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't. Um, there's, with the invention of the internet, there's loads of different things you can do now. Um, to monetize your passion. Uh, so you don't actually have to even sell a product anymore. You just need to become the expert in what you love doing or what your daughter or son likes doing or brother or et cetera. Um, and people will always back the underdog. So as long as you show it in a—
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)What's the word? Natural way. Like, as long as people can get you or little Johnny or whatever, it'll fly. I'm telling you, it'll fly because people like that human connection. And if you can get a human connection with our kid, you buy off him all day. Do you know what I mean? I'll also sell you all day. He's never bought a pint. He's not bought a pint in 20 years. He's, he That's what he does. He's the greatest salesman there ever was. Um, so yeah, just, uh, just do it. Like, it's not hard. It's— if you want, if you want access to our HR company, I'm happy to, you know, send you through to them. They're called Ultimate HR. But, you know, when you start a business, you're not going to get there for another 3 years anyway. Um, but just stop looking for reasons not to do it.
Al ElliottSo that was Christian Laing from Standout Socks. And honestly, I don't think we need to add anything to what you just heard.
Leanne ElliottChristian is not asking for your sympathy, your awws, as he puts it. He's not asking for your praise. He's just showing us what's possible when we stop looking for reasons not to do something.
Al ElliottSo if you're listening to this and you're thinking about Christmas presents, stocking fillers, Secret Santa gifts, go to standoutsocks.co.uk, buy some socks. They are great socks.
Leanne ElliottThey are great socks. But more importantly, you'll be directly supporting paid employment And if you are listening to this and you're in charge of hiring, in charge of culture, in charge of making decisions about who gets opportunities in your organisation, I want you to sit and think about what Christian said, about the mirrors being held up, about people being discarded, about his brother Ross, who we shouldn't feel sorry for. The man's never bought a pie in 20 years because he's the greatest salesman there ever was.
Al ElliottNow, you don't have to start a sock company, but you can ask yourself, what are you doing to make sure that people with learning disabilities Who am I not considering? Who might I be overlooking? And what assumptions am I making about capability?
Leanne ElliottAnd Christian's proved that it can be done, and it can be profitable, and it can change lives, not just for the people you employ, but for entire families, entire communities, entire supply chains.
Al ElliottSo yeah, go buy some socks, but more than that, go and think about what you could do differently in your This is Truth, Lies and Work.
Leanne ElliottWe will see you next week.