Episode 56 · 14 September 2023 · 1:00:25
Maneesh K. Goyal: How 9/11 Inspired a New American Dream
Maneesh K. Goyal: How 9/11 Inspired a New American Dream
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Intro and welcome to episode 56
News roundup: quiet cutting and the psychology of time
news roundup#news#quiet-cutting#psychology-of-time
Introducing Maneesh K. Goyal
The early years: growing up a second-generation immigrant
interview#immigrant-story#resilience#identity
How 9/11 changed everything
interview#9-11#student-debt#unemployment
Fueling the entrepreneurial spirit: building businesses across industries
Starting a family: adopting son Adrian
interview#adoption#lgbtq-family#parenting
Advocacy and empowerment: identity, leadership, and visibility
interview#advocacy#indian-american#lgbtq-rights#women-rights
Building authentic workplace culture
Words of encouragement for leaders
Closing words of wisdom: office vs. remote working
Top 5 takeaways and outro
interview#takeaways#outro
Show notes
From "Othered" to Empowered: Maneesh K. Goyal on 9/11, Risk & the New American Dream
Episode 56 — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott bring you another Founder Series conversation, this time with Maneesh K. Goyal, a queer, second-generation Indian immigrant and serial entrepreneur based in New York City.
Maneesh's story is one of resilience, identity, and transformation. From navigating the expectations of immigrant parents to watching 9/11 change his city and his outlook forever, Maneesh has built a career — and a life — on the power of embracing what makes you different.
In this episode, Al and Leanne unpack Maneesh's journey from feeling "othered" to becoming an empowered leader. They explore his ventures across multiple industries, his advocacy for the Indian American community and LGBT+ rights, and what it means to build an authentic workplace culture. Plus, Maneesh shares his closing words of wisdom on the office vs. remote working debate, and the team round up their top takeaways — including why "risk makes life remarkable."
🎙️ About Maneesh K. Goyal
Maneesh K. Goyal is a serial entrepreneur, founder, and advocate based in New York City. His journey spans pre-med at Duke University to building multiple businesses across different industries. He is a fierce advocate for the Indian American community, LGBT+ rights, and women's rights, and currently serves on several boards supporting underrepresented voices in business and politics.
In 2022, Maneesh and his husband Andrew became parents, adopting their son Adrian. He describes his family as his most important ally.
🔥 Key Themes From This Episode
1. The "othered" experience as fuel Maneesh reflects on his early life as a second-generation immigrant — navigating cultural differences, facing expectations, and feeling like an outsider. Rather than letting it hold him back, he channeled it into determination and, eventually, entrepreneurial drive.
2. 9/11 as a turning point The attack on New York didn't just change the city — it changed Maneesh's outlook on life. He describes himself as a natural-born risk-taker, and 9/11 crystallised his belief that life is short and risk makes life remarkable.
3. Authenticity as a leadership superpower Maneesh is clear: he is a better CEO because of who he is, not in spite of it. His advocacy work and his visibility as a queer Indian American leader are inseparable from his success in business.
4. The office vs. remote debate Maneesh shares his closing words of wisdom on the evolving landscape of work — the power of in-person connection, the flexibility of remote working, and the idea of work-life blend over balance.
💡 Top 5 Takeaways
Embrace your differences. Your uniqueness isn't a weakness — it's your source of strength. Don't let your past dictate who you are, but let it inform who you become.
Risk makes life remarkable. Maneesh said it a few times, and it's a motto worth tattooing. Playing it safe won't get you where you want to be.
Spend your time building people up. Maneesh is spending his time and platform lifting others who have felt marginalised or "othered."
Authenticity, accessibility, and empathy are the most powerful leadership traits. The best leaders are the ones people can actually talk to.
Aim for work-life blend, not balance. Balance implies a perfect equilibrium that doesn't exist. Blend is about integration, not separation.
More From This Episode
- Connect with Maneesh on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/maneeshkgoyal
- Listen back for more on The Journey of MKG: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/women-in-leadership-mkg_2355
- Fostering Inclusive Workplaces: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/edi-101-for-leaders_2340
- Generational Differences in the Workplace: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/from-baby-boomers-to-gen-z_2289
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team Can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Maneesh GoyalNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Maneesh GoyalI know what it's like on the other side. How do I make sure those people that under— are under my employ do not have the Sunday night blues?
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYeah, and welcome back, episode 56, Lee.
Leanne Elliott56. That's gone quick, hasn't it?
Al ElliottIt has, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're, uh, we're episode 56, back to one of our founder series. We tend to do them roughly once every month. Uh, we've got a great guest for you today. We do— do we start off by going into the guest? Do we do— what do we do first? I've forgotten now.
Leanne ElliottI think, I think we should give— I think we should give a little taster of who our guest is. Yeah.
Al ElliottOkay, so today we are talking to the fabulous Manish K. Goyal. He's a serial entrepreneur based in New York. He's the founder of MKG. If you remember back to episode 46, I want to say, uh, we interviewed the ladies from MKG, absolutely incredible women. Um, and Manish is the founder back in— well, we'll go into that shortly. He also, uh, runs and owns Pineapple, Living the Gray, Pink Sparrow, to name a few companies that he's founded. He's He's a second-generation Indian, um, who identifies as queer. And you'll find this is, this is quite important when we get further into the story. The overarching theme of this episode is a term that I hadn't heard until Leanne actually used it the other day and said, right, this is what, this is what we're gonna be talking about. And the term is othered. So we're gonna find out how he's gone from othered to becoming a celebrated entrepreneur, um, that counts the Manhattan and Bollywood elite in his inner circle. And we'll be diving into an incredible life and career. So shall we go meet Maneesh Lee?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Maneesh GoyalMy name is Maneesh Goyal. I am an entrepreneur, a bit of a serial entrepreneur based in New York City. And really, ultimately, the businesses that I've started and the businesses that I currently run have all been around the concept of human connection. So my first business was a marketing firm, event marketing firm that was called MKG, which Actually, very, I guess this is what you call dumb luck. It looked like an abbreviation for the word marketing, but it actually stood for Manish Kumar Goyal, my initials. MKG is a leader in the event marketing space, and I built it up with a dream and an idea, grew it to about 150 employees, and then sold it in 2019.
Al ElliottSo excited to get into this interview. But before we do that, it's our favorite time of the week. It's the News Roundup.
Leanne ElliottCue the jingle.
Al ElliottWhat have we got, Lee?
Leanne ElliottI have a new word.
Al ElliottNew word alert.
Leanne ElliottQuiet cutting.
Al ElliottOh, quiet cutting.
Leanne ElliottQuiet cutting.
Al ElliottIs that when you are scrapbooking late at night and the rest of your family are asleep and you have to cut very, very quietly?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottYes, I thought so. Okay, great. So that's the end of the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottAlso, you just made me think, do you remember those scissors you used to get that would chop like zigzags?
Al ElliottYeah, they're called pinking shears, I think.
Leanne ElliottPinking shears. Can you still get them?
Al ElliottI don't know. I mean, I don't understand why you wanted them to do a zigzag, but anyway, go on.
Leanne ElliottWell, crafty.
Al ElliottYeah, but they— but Mum used to— my mum used to use them for sewing. She used to cut like material with these.
Leanne ElliottOh, I think that was because it didn't, um, You didn't lose threads, wasn't it?
Al ElliottUh, oh, there we go. Learn something new every day. Anyway, I'm sorry, you were saying pinking shears?
Leanne ElliottPinking shears. Quiet quitting. There is one journalist somewhere who came up with quiet quitting, and he's just keeping throwing these terms out, seeing what sticks. Uh, the latest one is quiet cutting. Al, any ideas? It's not about, um, cutting quietly at night.
Al ElliottUm, I would probably guess it is when You very quietly let people go?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much, pretty much. We're not quite letting people go. So it's when employees are reassigned to other roles within the same company rather than being made redundant. So usually part of an organizational restructure. So on one hand, you know, organizations are kind of thinking, well, we spent a lot of time and money recruiting these awesome people, we want to keep them in business, let's reassign them to another role. But there are lots of people that are being reassigned to things that are completely out of what they'd normally do. So maybe somebody who is in creative being assigned a sales role, for example. Cynics may say that actually it's because businesses don't want to pay people redundancy pay, so they'll, they'll put them in a— reassign them to another role that they know they'll probably leave, so save them money there. And of course, for the individual, it does cause stress and anxiety because potentially a brand new role in a brand new team with— in an area you have limited experience in, and with an understanding that you're having to be reassigned because the company starting to make cuts. Um, so yeah, that is quiet cutting and apparently has been on the rise over the last 12 months. What's interesting is while the data is showing us that redundancies across sectors, but in tech especially, are going down, probably because they've got no one left to— no one left to cut. Um, but what is happening is quiet cutting or reassignment is on the increase. Um, so yeah, there you go, quiet cutting.
Al ElliottSneaky. Um, like from a, from a leader, like, um, like a sneaky leader sitting in their lair, like, hmm, look at my ideas. That is very clever. I wouldn't have thought of that. But, uh, from an actual, let's just be decent human beings to each other, bit shitty.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I guess, you know what, I think it all depends on the scenario. I think it depends what you've been reassigned to, how it's communicated, what options you're given. You know, if you're given a reassignment or voluntary redundancy, then that is a little bit more ethical perhaps. or if you're consulted on the type of role that you go into, if you have a choice. And I think if organizations, organizations are genuinely trying to keep hold of staff, not make them redundant, not, you know, cut them from the organization entirely and put them in a very vulnerable position in an unpredictable job market, you know, then maybe they are doing the right thing. I think again, it all comes down to not necessarily what you do, but how you do it.
Al ElliottI love it, I love it. What else we got, Lee?
Leanne ElliottWhat the fuck happened to 2021? What do you mean? So that was a headline, um, that I read on a news article talking about a piece, a new piece of psychological research, and it made me laugh out loud at what the fuck happened to 2021. Time perception. We've talked a little bit about this before, Al, because I did my undergraduate dissertation on the perception of time.
Al ElliottYeah. And also, just, just like when we're chatting, we were saying that August seemed to last forever, whereas September's gone very quickly. And then, and also, it's weird, isn't it? Like a particular week could feel like it stretches out, yet you think, oh well, it was only like last week was March, wasn't it? It's like, oh bloody hell, it's September or something. So yeah, perception kind of, I'm guessing, shifts based on what, were they having a good time, bad time? I don't know.
Leanne ElliottYeah, good time, bad time. Age can influence our perception of time. And interestingly, new research from the University of Aberdeen in Scotland has shown that the COVID pandemic and 2021 in particular completely warped our perception of time? Yes, so perception of time, it's actually a really interesting area to dive into, and if you are interested, let me know. I'll send you some, I'll send you some people to, to look out for. But one area of perception of time looks at our perception of time over a long period of time. Um, so what we basically have is these anchor events that we will use to judge periods of time. You know when you listen to 10 to the Top, Vernon Kay, BBC 2?
Al ElliottOf course.
Leanne ElliottOf course. And it's like, in what year was Barbie Girl, the original, released? And you're like, oh, I think that's when I was in sixth form, so that would be about '98. And it kind of helps you narrow it down. Um, that's what an anchor event is, because you're anchoring when you heard that song with where you were in your life. Um, so all these different anchor events help us remember time and perceive time effectively. What new research is showing, perhaps unsurprisingly, is that during the COVID lockdowns, where we weren't really doing much, or we're doing the same things every day, and we were missing out on these big anchor events like birthday parties or get-togethers or new jobs, that not having those has completely warped our perception of time. So in terms of recall, we're really not as accurate as we normally are when it comes to remembering events from 2021. But what's also interesting is these time distortions have also been linked Because everything's sort of like—
Al Elliottlike the whole point in 2021 was nothing really happened. Does that mean that we feel that it— the year lasted longer, it lasted shorter? Is that dependent on how the person experienced it?
Leanne ElliottSo for the, the average person who went through a lockdown when without many anchor events would experience it very quickly and in a way that probably felt very slow at the time but very quickly looking back. And when they try and think of You know, they'll say something like, oh, we did that last year, and like, no, we did that in 2020. Um, that kind of warps it. If, however, you were maybe a key worker during that time and had lots of, of anchor events, probably quite traumatic anchoring events, um, then that year probably actually feels pretty long looking back. But either way, they have been— this whole distortion of time has also been linked, interestingly, in this study, to mental health. Um, so those with higher levels of resilience seem less susceptible to their perception of time being warped.
Al ElliottAh, okay. So higher resilience, you just— well, I suppose that's the whole point of resilience, is you can just put up with things.
Leanne ElliottOr create your own anchors.
Al ElliottOr create your own anchors. Lovely. Anything else, love?
Leanne ElliottJust a small announcement. Of course, we are still going to Mad World. Don't forget about that. If you're not sure what we're talking about, we are going to the Mad World event in London on the 12th of October. We will leave a link in the show notes for you to find out more. or go back to the news roundup last week and we talk about it there. But another little event that is coming up, 25th of September, which is a Monday, 10 AM UK time. So GMT—
Al ElliottYeah, is it GMT+1? Plus 1 because it's London time.
Leanne ElliottSo yes, Monday, 25th of September, 10 AM GMT+1. Thank you, Al. We are hosting a webinar in collaboration with MAP, a long-term client of ours. It is called Creating Great Workplace and we will be talking about the steps you can take as a business owner to create an awesome workplace. Specifically, we're gonna be talking about employee insights, we're gonna be talking about data, we're gonna be dipping our toe a little bit into recruitment with the help of another expert in recruitment called Craig, and finally, we are also gonna be joined by the incredible Sonia from Ride the Wave, who you may well remember back from our Coaches Unleashed episode, and she is gonna be talking about the leadership programme that we run, Oblong, our company we run in collaboration with Ride the Wave. Um, so yeah, very, very exciting.
Al ElliottUm, do not miss that. There'll be a link in the show notes. Um, you can, you can pre— you can pre-register now, can you, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYou can pre-register now. Of course, it is completely free, and I think the recording is made available as well if you register. Um, so go and register.
Al ElliottOkay, so are we on to the show, Lee?
Leanne ElliottWe are. This is— I'm excited about this It really is an incredible story, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah, we're both really excited about this. I did a bit of research and then did the interview with Manish. Uh, Leanne's listened to the interview, read through transcripts, and put together the episode. So we both feel like we really, really know him. Also some incredible highs, also some lows we'll talk about, but also he's just so down to earth. I'm sure I read somewhere that he has actors coming to his apartment for a cup of tea and a biscuit, um, and he never even mentions it. Like, Didn't invite us actually for a cup of tea and a biscuit, but, uh, then we're a little further away. So we have got— so Leanne separated this up into several segments, which is gonna start off with the early years. Then we're gonna go into fueling entrepreneurship. Then we're going to advocacy and empowerment. Segment 4 is words of encouragement, and segment 5 is closing words of wisdom, which there are many from Manish. Do we start at the beginning, Lee, the early years?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottOkay, so Maneesh's story is one of like resilience, identity transformation. He explains— Maneesh explains that his early years really, really shaped him in ways that only just kind of becoming clear to him right now. So Maneesh is the son of Indian immigrants who grew up in Dallas, in Texas.
Maneesh GoyalIt's been said that your family or your upbringing or your, your environment as a young child can influence who you might become. And certainly that was the case for me because I saw the grit of a young immigrant. My father immigrated to America in the '60s, and I saw him look around while he had a full-time job working at Xerox as an engineer in Dallas. But he looked around and realized there's not a single Indian restaurant, not just in the city of Dallas, but the entire state of Texas, which, as you might know, it's a very large state. And he really, while he still had a job, he kind of moonlighted, found a space, figured out how to build a restaurant. And he's not a cook, not a chef by any means, but he was a guy with ambition, a heaping cup of ambition and a dream. And he opened India House and he opened it just a couple of months after I was born in 1975. And my boyhood was spent in that restaurant. So I have very vivid memories of being in that restaurant as a boy, my playpen literally behind the bar as my parents were working in the restaurant. And it became a meeting place for the Indian community, which was growing in Texas. It also really offered Texans something very different, but you got to imagine offering Indian food to Texans in the 1970s was not necessarily a welcome act. It was almost an act of rebellion to try to say, hey, try something different than meat and potatoes and steak and potatoes. And so that was— it wasn't the easiest of goes. He had it for 9 years, but it was, you know, there were There was ups and downs and it came with a lot of challenges, but I saw that and I respected it. And so I said, one day I want to do what my dad did and I want to not just open a restaurant, but I want to open an Indian restaurant. And it took me 4 decades, but I did it. And so this was always in my head that one day I want to do— I too want to be a restaurateur, but with an Indian restaurant of my own, just like my dad did.
Leanne ElliottBefore pursuing his entrepreneurial dreams, Manish actually started out as pre-med at Duke University before completing his master's in public health at Yale. In 1999, he moved to New York, and to use his words, as a queer South Asian son of immigrant parents living in a predominantly straight white male world.
Maneesh GoyalI think that the intersectionality of, of the various boxes that I might have checked have all played into that. And that, yeah, that's a big part of it because I've said a few times when the bar is set so low, what's the damage of trying something? And so, you know, there was a portion of my life where the bar was ultimately set relatively low. Like, what am I going to lose? You know, like, what's at stake here? And especially when I moved to New York and I was trying to find myself. I'd come out to some friends but had not come out to my parents. I was, you know, had this job that I didn't really like, but it was fine, I guess. And all these things were kind of coalescing to say like, well, what if I were to change things up? What's the big deal? What am I gonna— what am I gonna lose? Because it didn't feel like I was so well rooted. And some of that, sometimes that's helpful to feel that.
Al ElliottAnd then, you know, then you find your roots and Now, not long after moving to New York, Maneesh found himself living in downtown Manhattan, unemployed, on 9/11, 2001.
Maneesh GoyalI'm saddled with student loan debt from both undergrad and grad school. I am collecting unemployment in New York City. And to be fair, it was in 2001 that I was going through this, and I was unemployed employed living in downtown Manhattan on 9/11. And I was in my mid-20s. And when you— when I lived through that and there was a curfew and all the things and, and the soot in the air for weeks, I just kind of thought to myself, I mean, sure, the first thing to dry up were events and nobody was going to even consider doing anything garish. But I had the belief that some, you know, that the industry would bounce back. And when it did, I wanted to be in it. I wanted to— now I had lived through a life-changing experience for me, even as a resident of the city, but as a citizen in the world. And I wasn't going to live on anyone else's terms. I was going to take some risks and do what I wanted to do. So I got into the event marketing business. I had no experience, no reason to get into it. other than a fire in my belly.
Leanne Elliott9/11 not only changed New York and America, it really did change the world. I remember where I was when I was watching that news story unfold. The war in Afghanistan soon followed, as did increases in deportations, increases in big surveillance. Stock markets nosedived, and almost every sector was economically challenged. The US was already suffering a moderate recession at that time following the dot-com bubble, and the terrorist attacks added further injury to the struggling business community. So all in all, a risky time to start a business.
Maneesh GoyalRisk is something that I, I think a lot about. I am a natural-born risk-taker. It is something that I have overindulged with, where I, I bring too much of it into my life, and I've learned from that. There's sometimes where I can walk a little too sheepishly when I know that I'm, I'm empowered and I'm bold and I should take a bigger leap. My husband, for example, is a very risk-averse person. He likes to work in bigger companies. He likes the structure and understanding the organization, the bigger organization, where I've always gravitated towards smaller organizations, being an entrepreneur, taking risks, falling, getting back up, etc. So everybody's very different. And a lot of this risk calculus is built before we're ever in the workplace because it's built by how we grew up, what our lived experience has been in and around us as a child, as a student. So I came to the table as a professional having already unknowingly but taken a lot of risks. And so I felt a little bit of comfort with the notion of risk because I said, well, listen, I've been doing it this long. So, why stop now? One of the biggest swings I made was when I decided to get into the industry of event marketing. So, I had completed a graduate degree in public health, and I thought that I would have a long career in nonprofits and working for an NGO of some sort. And I did that for about 2 years directly out of grad school. But during those 2 years, I would get what I used to call the Sunday night blues. And I was like, oh no, do I have to go back? And it's part of my desire to build a culture was actually, it was a very influential 2 years for me because I knew what I needed to avoid. Because if I said, not for myself, but I said, if I build it now, when I found myself as a founder and building a staff, I said, oh wow, I know what it's like on the other side. How do I make sure those people that are under my employ do not have the Sunday night blues? Because I've had them and I think I play a role in whether or not they have them. So, it shined a light on the idea of what it was like. And not that the organization wasn't a great organization that did important work in the nonprofit space, but it wasn't right for me. I wanted to be in a fast-paced environment. I wanted to be in a diverse environment. I wanted to be with a different type of person, like a younger feeling, dynamic professional environment. And that just wasn't that. And so, the biggest swing and really this relationship with risk was born out of me saying, okay, you know what? I don't have any experience in this industry. I have very few contacts in this industry. But I have a deep desire to get into this industry, and I think I'm just gonna do it.
Al ElliottSo that was Mohnish's early years. Going on to now, kind of the fueling the entrepreneurial spirit. This is, this is where Mohnish used his lived experiences to fuel this sort of entrepreneurial drive. You could tell straight away, even at the early stage, he was an entrepreneur. In 2003, Mohnish founded MKG, which we talked about, uh, were the women we had on about 10 episodes ago, and remained its president up until 2019. Now, despite having not much experience in the event marketing space, Maneesh grew MKG to be one of the, one of the industry's most highly sought-after creative agencies. Multiple awards, look them up, they've won every award that possibly you can, and with offices in New York and Los Angeles. So fast forward to 2013, Maneesh opened Pink Sparrow. Well, which is— it kind of grew into this independent design and scenic fabrication shop which was very closely linked to MKG. 2019, so what we're talking about, 5 years ago, 4 years ago, Maneesh sold both MKG and Pink Sparrow to a company called Acceleration Community of Companies, ACC. So you think, well, maybe you've done enough, maybe it's a time to retire. Not for Maneesh.
Maneesh GoyalI have since— since I got out of the agency business, have pivoted to the hospitality business and And I currently run and operate 2 hospitality outposts in New York City, a very cool contemporary Indian restaurant called Sona on 20th Street here in Manhattan. And I've revived an iconic cocktail bar, cocktail den called Temple Bar that was open for about 33 years, closed down for about 5, and then I reopened it in 2021. So Temple Bar and through Sona, I have since launched a home, home line called Sona Home, which I also run. So yeah, there's a lot going on.
Al ElliottSo fast forward to 2021. And so Manish opened Sona with Priyanka Chopra, the Bollywood actress. He was determined to open this like brilliant restaurant in New York. But the, and the ongoing pandemic just didn't seem to stop him. As Manish explains, risk makes life remarkable.
Maneesh GoyalWe've got this, one shot. And who knows, it's not up to us oftentimes how long the shot is and what the trajectory may be. So let's add a little risk. Let's do some stuff. I mean, even opening a restaurant, that's a first-time restaurateur. And I took a big swing. It's a big restaurant in the heart of the Flatiron District, which is a very hot area that is an Indian restaurant when New York wasn't asking for another Indian restaurant. This was not me filling a void. This was me taking a big swing. And I think for all those reasons, I've naturally been connected to this notion of risk. And sure, I've stumbled and I've made some bigger— I've made some mistakes along the way. But I think ultimately, I get better and better at understanding what my relationship with risk is, but I am a firm believer, as you started this conversation with the notion that risk makes life remarkable.
Al ElliottSo let's just go 2001 to 2021. These are 20 years Manish has gone from being unemployed, living in downtown Manhattan, to being a serial entrepreneur with an estimated net worth of $1 million. During that time, he's experienced 9/11, he's experienced the global financial crisis in '07, the COVID pandemic in like 19, 20, 21. And that's aside from the personal experience of being a queer South Asian son of an immigrant person living in this predominantly straight male white world. I was curious if Maneesh had been third or fourth generation immigrant, do, do you, do you think he'd have the same drive? Do you think he'd have the same relationship with risk? So I asked him.
Maneesh GoyalIt's such an interesting question and it's something I actually think about, and I think the answer is probably not. Because with time comes dilution and it's something that you have to kind of fight the headwinds on. And so, I can recall the emotion and the experience of my parents walking into— so, the name of the restaurant is Sona, my restaurant, and Sona is the Hindi word for gold. And so, I remember my parents walking into the restaurant for the very first time, which was in April of 2021. I opened in March and the vaccine was starting to become more and more prevalent. And so travel was starting to pick up very loosely, but my parents were vaccinated and felt like they could come to New York and they really wanted to experience Sona. They came for 5 nights and they went to Sona 5 nights in a row. They were so proud. But what I distinctly remember is the first day they walked in, there was a real sense of emotion that they felt, that I felt, that we all felt, which was not just that, wow, you have created something, a physical space, which is hard to do in New York City in the wake of a global pandemic, et cetera. But there was also something about, I have created a link to a country that I will never know in which the way in which they know it. But there's a sense of ongoing connection, which I know made them feel very proud because certainly my kids and my nieces and nephews, as the distance appears, I mean, they really feel in their heart they are American. And I was born in America, so I feel American. But I really feel very closely connected to the country of my parents' birth. That will change as generations go forth. And so now there's a connection to this country and a connection to a culture that is indelible because there's a physical restaurant that will always be there long, hopefully even after my parents are no longer here. And I think that brought a sense of pride to all of us to know that, wow, you've stepped up. Because if I had just opened a restaurant that wasn't an Indian restaurant, we probably wouldn't be feeling that, or we wouldn't be feeling that. But that is— it's very true that this was important for me, for my story, for the next generation's story, so that my son can grow up, grow up going to an Indian restaurant and feeling like it's a part of his story too.
Leanne ElliottFamily is hugely important to Maneesh. He's described them as his most important ally and feels blessed to have their unconditional support. Manisha's family expanded in 2008 when he met his now husband, Andrew Wingrove. Andrew is Delta's Managing Director of Product Strategy and Customer Experience. Power couple, to say the least. Together they live in a stunning loft on East 13th Street in the heart of Manhattan's Flatiron District. You might go, Leanne, how'd you know it's stunning? It's been featured in Vogue, The Wall Street Journal, and The New York Post, to name a few.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne Elliottview. It is goals. It is beautiful. The other cool thing about Manish's harem is it is famous for hosting an annual salad toss-off. Now, Manish, where we're from, you're not allowed to say toss-off, but in America it's fine. So yeah, an annual salad toss-off, which is a salad competition complete with celebrity judges such as Anne Hathaway and a grand prize of first-class round-trip plane tickets to anywhere in the world. I'll be honest, Maneesh, I toss a good salad.
Al ElliottSorry, Maneesh, we're being so childish here. Uh, yeah, in England that does have— or in the UK, that does have a slightly different connotation.
Leanne ElliottSo in 2022, Maneesh and Andrew became parents, adopting their son Adrian, who recently turned 2. Maneesh explained how risk also played a role in their decision to become parents.
Maneesh GoyalWhen my husband and I decided to start a family, it was very interesting because as a same-sex male couple, your choice is pretty binary. You either work with a surrogate and you go down the process of surrogacy, or you go through— you decide to do adoption. And one is more prescribed, surrogacy, because you're a little bit more in the driver's seat because you're choosing the egg donor, etc. So you have, you have a little bit more understanding of the child that you will be bringing into the world. And one is much more risky where you're like, okay, there's going to be another, a birth family involved in some capacity. You don't know about the upbringing until the day you met, or, you know, the prenatal care or whatever it might be. And for me, it was just, it was always a very clear, without hesitation decision that I wanted to adopt. Again, because I knew that there's more risk, but it was also just that, that was our— and thankfully my husband was in complete agreement and he felt the exact same way. He was like, this is our story. We're ready to walk into the unknown and see what might emerge and see who's out there. And so So again, that's, that's a, that's a riskier decision, but the one that felt the most comfortable to both of us.
Leanne ElliottSo moving on to advocacy and empowerment, Maneesh has described himself as an insatiable people person. As a leader, he believes that being LGBT+ gives him a heightened sense of empathy and understanding. He values inclusion immensely. and throughout his career has dedicated himself to building people-first organizations. Manisha explained that he has experienced being othered and has used that experience to empower himself and other people.
Maneesh GoyalI would say that without a doubt, I am a better CEO and a better leader and a better cheerleader and builder of a workplace culture because I am a queer South Asian son of immigrant person living in a predominantly straight white male world. I can say that full stop. And the reason is, is because I have understood the notion of being othered. I have understood the notion of trying to fit in. I've understood the notion of trying to find, pull up painstakingly or elbowing my way to get a seat at the table. And so those experiences have just helped me to understand an employee base, have helped me to understand what it's like to desire a place of belonging. So how can I create a workplace that emulates a place of belonging? So it has helped me to become a more understanding, empathetic, worldly leader because I didn't grow up in a way where doors were opened or Or, or chairs were pulled out for me. And so that has helped a lot in my experience.
Leanne ElliottManeesh is a fierce advocate for the Indian American community and LGBT+ and women's rights. He currently serves on the board of the Planned Parenthood Action Fund, the American Indian Foundation, and the J. William Fulbright Foreign Scholarship Fund. Previously, Manisha was a member of the board of directors for the Stonewall Community Foundation and on the leadership committee of Quorum, an out leadership initiative dedicated to increasing LGBT representation on corporate boards.
Al ElliottManisha is passionate about this continued visibility at the top ranks of business and politics for underrepresented communities. So representation matters, and as a leader, that also means being accessible. to others. Manish explains that visible leadership serves as a key pillar in his approach to building people-first cultures.
Maneesh GoyalCulture is not, uh, by any means a one-size-fits-all. So while I certainly loved and took a real keen interest in building a culture in a creative agency, almost all of which I learned, I assumed I would easily translate it to now working in hospitality. And candidly, it's quite different. And it has really— it's an entirely different experience of workplace because the workplace is a nighttime workplace. The workplace is a— let's call it a little more transient. People might come in and out. The workplace is one that is centered around, in some ways, the notion of drinking and socializing. and eating. And so these are all things that have to be factored in when you're building a workplace culture that might not have been in when I was in my previous life as an agency guy and as a creative agency guy. So I think I've been learning that it's very different. That said, I have really realized that there are certain things that connect to culture that are foolproof and that really work. One of which that I've always felt is very a key pillar to building culture, which I now use effectively. I've built it and I grew the muscle in my creative agency. And now, I've honed it and I continue to leverage it is access to leadership. So, access to leadership Which really means ultimately access to me and other senior leaders is a key pillar to building a culture. Because if people feel like they have access to leadership and they feel like the leadership has a real relationship with the employee and the team, then ultimately you are building loyalty, you're building culture, you're, you know, you are building connection in a way that's very hard to do when the leader or the leadership is absent. And so that's something that I learned very quickly and dramatically in the, in the agency life, in my agency life, that I've continued to use in my hospitality life.
Al ElliottSo we're talking multiple businesses, multiple board appointments, a husband, a 2-year-old son, and yet managed— still managed to find time to be accessible to his teams. I had to ask, how the hell are you doing this?
Maneesh GoyalYeah, certainly. And it's true, because all of us are overscheduled and have too many commitments. I think you do the access to leadership on your terms. And so, I did them on my terms, which was that I set up times that were meant to have access to leadership. So, once a quarter, I did a gathering that was limited to, I think, 90 minutes or maybe up to 2 hours that was for all new hires. All new hires where I personally would gather all the new hires across the companies at the time when there was multiple companies, and we would meet. Not only would we meet, but I would invite them to my home. And so I would have them in my home for 90 minutes. And the amount of loyalty and connection that was built, A, amongst all the newbies at the company, but B, the amount of people that said to me that, wow, I've been in the business for, you know, been working for 20 years. I've never been to a CEO's home. Home. I've never been invited into a CEO's home. Now, I'm a— I'm a— I'm an entertainer. I, I like the business, but also we were in the business previously of creating events and creating experiences. I'm currently in the business of, of creating moments and memories over a meal or over a drink. So for me to invite people into my home made perfect sense, and I was willing to do it. Now, you don't have to do it that way, but to take 90 minutes once a quarter and to welcome in the new hires in a way that feels meaningful and feels like, wow, I'm glad you're here. And it's not a ton of one-on-one time, but rather it's a little bit of a group. But you self-select the group because everyone kind of feels a connection to those around them, even if they might not work together, they might not work at the same company, they might not— have any duties that are overlapping, they certainly are going to meet people. And that's when they see each other in the workplace or see each other on a Zoom, they're going to kind of head nod and know one another because they all were not only connected, but they were all connected through the CEO at, at, at, in his personal home. So that's, you know, that's an example of something that I would do. There are many other examples of, of ways that I would, I would create the access through my— on my terms. And sometimes, sure, you would get from my executive assistant, hey, so-and-so wants to speak with you. And I would have them dig into, okay, what's it about? Could it go to another manager? Could it go to their manager? Or I would go to their manager and say, hey, I got a request incoming. They're like, great, let me speak to them first. And so you can mitigate your time involvement. But when I see them in the, in the workplace, I would say, hey, I know you were reaching out, but did all that get resolved? Are you good? And he's like, yeah, I'm good, thanks. So, you know, like, it's not that you're avoiding or you're hiding, but you're just being strategic about the use of your time.
Leanne ElliottManeesh went on to explain how being accessible translates into workplace culture and specifically creating an authentic workplace.
Maneesh GoyalIt's a bit of a dream. Um, I'll start by saying that. Because an authentic workplace is a place that is always looking in the mirror to understand how it's doing. And it's a journey and it's certainly a marathon because it's a long journey. But ultimately, an authentic workplace is one that recognizes the workplace has human-like qualities. qualities, as do the humans that work there. And you need to be able to define what is this, what are the characteristics and the qualities of this workplace, and understanding and checking yourself on, is this a cold and austere workplace? Because there are certainly cold and austere people, and that's the way that they live their lives and feel comfortable in their own existence? Or is this a warm and welcoming place? Is this a place where things happen without people knowing? And so, there's a sense of a jarring workplace because I always used to think about this idea about the power of communication is that if you were to redesign the office and move people's desks, it's not that it's a bad idea, but it'd be like somebody coming into your apartment or your home and suddenly you come back and your sofa's in a different place. Maybe it's in a better place, but like, hey, can I get a heads up? I didn't know this. It's a bit jarring. And so it's about the power of communication and understanding. I've led businesses with as much transparency as possible. Certainly when we were going through a sales process and the agency was being acquired, of course you can't be fully transparent because there's there's risk involved with that that you can't put into the table. But I built a team around me that I could be transparent with and needed to be in the inner circle, et cetera. And so, you kind of work in ways that make sense for the business, but always being true to the characteristics and the human-like qualities that you've chosen the business to espouse and to be and to create. And to portray, so that's kind of you know I used to be very happy when when people would walk into our office and this was you know pre COVID time when when in person workplaces were somewhat paramount. But people would walk in and they would meet me and they said wow it just feels good in here, and that was a big win to me because they were a visitor for an hour and they didn't know anybody or they or they didn't. Maybe know that many people that worked there. So, they were not reacting to anything they had been told or speaking to any employees, but they were reacting to a sense of what it felt like to walk in the door. And that was, I think, a big win. So, that's the idea of building authentic workplaces is really confronting yourself. And this is where when I say we, I mean the leadership team. And if you don't have buy-in from the CEO and other key leaders and executives, it's not going to happen. This is not— this cannot be relegated to HR. It just— it won't. Nothing will happen unless you're getting real senior leadership buy-in.
Leanne ElliottSo moving on to some words of encouragement for other leaders from Manish. Manish is an advocate of people first, employee second. He says that recognizing and respecting that notion can make an organization soar.
Al ElliottYeah, there's a huge responsibility on the shoulders of leaders and managers today, and Maneesh offers some exceptional advice for anyone listening who may be facing people and culture challenges.
Maneesh GoyalAs you just mentioned, your time is, is not only limited, but also your role isn't to be everything for everyone. Really, who you need to be as a CEO. Who you really need to be is you need to look at your direct reports and look at the leaders that you are empowering and working with more closely and understand how are they doing. Because we've all heard the adage that people don't leave jobs, they leave managers. And so, if people aren't leaving, if people are leaving managers, then it's your role as a CEO to empower, inspire, and lead those that are leading. And so that's a lot of how I've spent my time is to understand where are the weak points, where are the points of unease as it relates to leaders, and how do I work around them and work with them to bolster. So a lot of what that is, that is a little bit more one-on-one. That's spending time with your direct reports, spending time with your leaders. Understanding what the dynamics are within their organizations and within their groups, and really honing in on the notion that people's output is ultimately, and even more so with a younger workforce that we're all working with and understanding how they're motivated, their output is dependent upon their experience at work. And that experience at work, while Some people from a different generation could be frustrated by that because why are we now responsible for their happiness? Ultimately, we are. We're responsible for how people are because we're expecting a lot of them, not only from an hour standpoint but from an output standpoint. So, if we're expecting a lot, we need to understand how we can get what we need and how they are going to get what they need from us as well. So, it's a fine balance. I respect the fact that we still have to be the employer and we're not a best friend, or we're not a therapist. But there is a part of it that just, you have to tap into the humanity of it.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.
Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agents agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I I hope you enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Keep that in.
Al ElliottSo Maneesh went on to explain that it's not about having all of the answers as a CEO. It's about being authentic, having authenticity and conviction in your beliefs and your values. This is going to help you to find the answers even when you're the one put on the spot.
Maneesh GoyalI was interviewing a guy and I really wanted him to work for us as we were building out a digital department. I really wanted him to work for us at MKG. And I was kind of the last interview. He had been through several and things were going well. And I was excited to sit with him. And at a certain point in the conversation, I thought it was going well and things were moving in the direction that I hoped they would. He suddenly said to me, and of course you always want to be willing to answer questions of an interviewee. He said, hey, do you mind if I ask you a question? I said, yeah, of course. And he said, well, can I ask you what's your motto? Oh shit, what is my motto? And it was at a time, or in that moment, I kind of panicked because I said, well, suddenly the tables have turned and now I'm the panicked interviewee without the right answer and I don't want to mess this up. And so very quickly he turned the table and I thought about it for a second and that's when I kind of, I think maybe uttered for the first time something that had been in my head for some time. I said, you know, I don't— some time ago, I decided that I don't want to have demarcations in my life in some ways between work and life and around friend and colleague. And sometimes you could even say between night and day, I kind of want everything to flow. And not to say I'm going to be best friends with every colleague or there isn't a need for downtime, but I want my life to make sense for my work and my work to make sense for my life and not have the two really be oil and water where they never shall meet. And as I said, with that in mind, I guess my motto is this idea that I don't live in a black and white world, but I want to live in the gray. And he sat there and he really took it in and he said, wow, I like that. That's interesting. And ultimately he did not only get offered the job, but accepted and worked with us for several years. But then it was really at his insistence. He said, you should kind of think about this idea of live in the gray and how you might, since you do espouse it from what I can see, how you can maybe promote it. But I remember distinctly that conversation with him. Because it helped me to articulate the way in which I had been living, which was this notion that it's not a black and white world, but actually there's a real beauty in the gray.
Al ElliottManeesh went on to turn this motto into an actual business. He founded this company culture consultancy that basically challenges this work-life divide. They help companies to foster engaging company cultures.
Maneesh GoyalYeah. So it's so interesting because I don't really think about things as a balance because I find balance to be precarious and it's hard to keep balance. If you think about being on a seesaw or a teeter-totter, as a kid, you've got to find that perfect weighted balance to stay in a horizontal position. And so I think about this notion of blend more than balance. And the notion, the idea is not that work overtakes and that work is omnipresent because that is destructive and debilitating. But rather, I think that the idea is that there's a sensical nature and there's an understanding that this work is chosen work. And oftentimes, let's be honest, that's a very privileged conversation and a You come into the idea of chosen work privilege because some people have to do work they might not enjoy or might not choose. So I respect the privilege therein. But I think that there's a recognition that the willingness to understand that work is going to be here and work is forever going to be part of my life. And so how do I not dread it? How do I not despise it? How do I not avoid it? But rather, how can I factor it in? So if I love music, but I work in an accounting firm, is there a world in which I could expose some of my colleagues to some of my favorite new bands that they might not have heard of and then come up with a common dialogue within the workplace with just maybe one or two people, but ultimately maybe even go see a show with Sure, I might not work in my dream industry of music, but at least can I integrate it a little bit more so that way it feels a little less arduous? I mean, I just think that the two and the blend does not need to be a full blend of, you know, you can imagine buckets of sand coming together. It could just be a little bit of a seep, a seep of one into the other. So that way it just starts to feel like, hey, I had a good day today. Because my goal is to just make people have more good days. And if they're coming to the workplace fighting it and wishing that this wasn't true or wasn't their reality, it's tough to have a good day.
Leanne ElliottLive in the Gray is not only a great motto, it's a really interesting business. They describe themselves as disruptors, innovators, thought leaders that believe work and life are not black and white. As a team, their mission is to offer resources, experiences, and insights to help individuals and organizations become more holistically successful. Their supporters are far and wide and include big names such as TEDx, Pepsi, Time, and Lululemon, to name but a few. We will leave a link to Manisha's LinkedIn profile in the show notes where you'll find All the links to all of Maneesh's businesses, including Live in the Gray.
Al ElliottSo closing words of wisdom. There are many when it comes to Maneesh. I got to the end of the interview and I was like, I just need to ask him this question. I said, what should I have asked you that I haven't yet? And in true thought leader style, Maneesh steered the conversation into the debate of 2023, remote versus office working.
Maneesh GoyalOh, that's a great Question to end with, because once again, the tables have turned and now I'm the interviewer. I think that maybe the one thing that would be interesting to explore is a lot of what I'm pulling from is from my experience of running a business in a pre-COVID era. And maybe it's curious and your listeners would be curious about what does this mean when the notion of work and a person's relationship with a workplace or even with a company has in some ways forever changed given the pandemic that we all lived through. And it's interesting for me because I now work in a business that is 100% location-based. You cannot work from home when you work in restaurants and bars. You have to physically show up. And so, it's very different though, of course, when you're in a professional environment that is an office-based environment where arguably people can work from home. So, how do you build a culture? It's something that I've been thinking about because I grew up in the world as being an office person. I liked going to an office, um, and I liked what that created. And I still think there's a real power in that. And but I know that younger generations certainly do not necessarily feel the same and don't understand the power therein. And so that's something I think is, is something that needs to continue to be explored.
Leanne ElliottAn incredible interview, an incredible life, an incredible career, and there is still so much more to come. Maneesh, thank you so much for sharing your lessons. Shall we end out by just maybe condensing them into, into a few that, that resonated with us?
Al Elliott100%. Let's do that.
Leanne ElliottI think the first one for me is embrace your differences. You know, this is going to sound really stupid. I don't mean to take away from Maneesh in any way, but this really resonated with me. And sometimes it's not always about where things come from. It's how they make you feel. I was watching on Sunday My Big Fat Greek Wedding, you know the film?
Maneesh GoyalOf course.
Leanne ElliottUm, and in a part of it, one of the characters, Nick Portokalos, says, do not let your past dictate who you are, but let it be part of who you will become. I thought that was kind of cool. And I think Maneesh kind of sums up that your past, your heritage, where you come from, is incredibly important in shaping your views, your values, your drive, your spirit. But at the same time, he's shown how this can be applied in a whole new world of America, in New York, across industries, across businesses. And I just think that that blend is really beautiful. So yeah, if you are out there and you have been othered, let's use that to empower ourselves to do amazing things.
Al ElliottBravo. Nice.
Leanne ElliottThank you.
Al ElliottOkay, so number 2, risk makes life remarkable. I mean, he said that a few times, But there's something about the word risk that just seems to be in the DNA. I counted in the transcript 39 times Manny said the word risk. So if you are starting a business, if you wanna grow a business, bear in mind you have to embrace the risk. You cannot do anything without risk.
Leanne ElliottAnother great phrase there, I think, isn't it? Risk makes life remarkable. That's a tattoo. I think there's not many things I'd get tattooed. Don't have any myself. But it's kind of cool, isn't it?
Al ElliottIt is cool. It is cool. Again, I'm too— I'm not too soft to get a tattoo. I can't deal with needles. But anyway, have you got— have you got a third one?
Leanne ElliottYeah, my third one is, um, I find it really inspiring how Maneesh is spending, you know, the time he has to build up others, to be an advocate for his communities, to, you know, not be that poppy. You know, poppy syndrome is when you, you know, you push others down, um, or indeed if somebody who's doing well, you undermine their achievements. or, or make them feel bad about them. Don't be a poppy. Uh, to quote Sonia Thompson, our friend on the podcast network, we grow stronger together.
Al ElliottThere's something about Maneesh which is just authentic, is accessible, and is empathic. And this is the most important thing in to be a leader. You can tell that it's not just about building business and having business savvy— savviness, if that's a word— business savviness. But also he's got— he's people savvy. He understands how people work, and he cares passionately about the people he leads.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think, fifth, this whole idea of work-life blend. I really liked what he was saying about balance always being a word he felt uncomfortable with to describe that, because it is this precarious, do we get it right, do we fall? Um, I like blend. I've also, also heard it called integration. Um, so I think that is a really interesting think interesting thing to reflect on as a leader, your relationship with work and life and how those two, um, connect together. And I think in that as well is probably gonna start to maybe influence your thoughts on remote versus office working. Um, so yeah, an interesting, an interesting topic. I think we could have a whole episode speaking to Manish about.
Al ElliottYeah, love to have him back on. I'd love to be invited to his salad toss-off. Um, we, uh, Leanne, we're trying to be—
Leanne ElliottI just don't think you can say toss off.
Al ElliottYeah, apologies for being puerile. It's just, uh, in Britain that's quite a funny term, and I'm sure there's terms in America that you would laugh at us using that, uh, um, that we wouldn't have a clue of. So that's it for yet another week.
Leanne ElliottAnd of course, we will be continuing the conversation over on LinkedIn this week. Let us know what was your favourite lesson or bit of inspiration from Maneesh? How has it maybe inspired you to, to change something up in, in your leadership approach this week?
Al ElliottLet us know. All right, so check your show notes and we will see you next week for— we've got, um, I think it's the very last of our, or the second to last of our Water Cooler guests.
Leanne ElliottOh yeah, we've got a very interesting panel next week, including some, um, very high-profile UK Yeah.
Al ElliottSo tune in next week and make sure you subscribe and tell everyone and just tell us, get on LinkedIn. If you enjoyed this, tell us you liked it.
Leanne ElliottAll right, Ali, you're starting to sound a bit needy now.
Al ElliottPlease love me. Please love me. Please touch me.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Bye.
Al ElliottBye.
Leanne ElliottWhat did you just say? Please touch me.
Al ElliottI meant like digitally, not like digitally with a digit. I meant digitally through the medium of digitism.
Maneesh GoyalRight.