Episode 95 · 7 May 2024 · 45:43

95: Google's onboarding, moonlighting, TikTok Therapists, PLUS how to work with your partner: This Week In Work 7th May 2024

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TherapyTok: therapists on TikTok
news roundup#therapy #tiktok #mental-health #social-media
Google's 15-minute onboarding secret
news roundup#google #onboarding #hr #culture
Moonlighting: the side-job trend
news roundup#moonlighting #side-jobs #career #work-life-balance
Co-founder couple lessons
news roundup#co-founders #couples #entrepreneurship #relationships
Workplace Surgery — quitting without a job lined up
workplace surgery#quitting #job-search #career-advice #workplace
Workplace Surgery — taking time off after resigning
workplace surgery#resignation #time-off #career-transition #workplace
Workplace Surgery — is a £100k watch a reasonable goal?
workplace surgery#salary #goals #reddit #workplace

Show notes

Google's Onboarding, Moonlighting, TikTok Therapists & Working With Your Partner

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) dive into the rise of "TherapyTok" and whether therapists should be sharing mental health advice on social media, Google's surprisingly simple 15-minute onboarding secret, and why one CEO in Singapore is actively encouraging his employees to moonlight. Plus, in the Workplace Surgery, Leanne answers listener questions on quitting without a job lined up and the danger of turning rest into a side hustle. And to round things off, Al and Leanne share their biggest lessons from working together as a married co-founder couple.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. TherapyTok — should therapists be influencers? Therapists are increasingly sharing quick mental health tips on TikTok, with some becoming genuine influencers. But what happens when you spot your own therapist online? Leanne explores the ethical tightrope — from boundary-blurring to the dangers of oversimplifying complex psychology in 60-second clips. Al weighs in on whether this is democratising mental health support or creating a new set of problems.

2. Google's 15-minute onboarding secret Inc Magazine reported on Google's surprisingly simple approach to onboarding: a 15-minute conversation that helps new hires integrate faster. Al breaks down the five tips — and why the "obvious" stuff is often the stuff most companies get wrong. If you're a leader who thinks you're too busy for this, Al has a simple maths lesson for you.

3. Moonlighting — the side-hustle revolution A Singapore-based CEO is actively encouraging his employees to take up side jobs, arguing that moonlighting enhances skills, engagement, and job satisfaction. Leanne and Al dig into whether this is a forward-thinking retention strategy or a recipe for burnout — and why Gen Z and Gen Alpha might make this the norm, not the exception.

💑 Working With Your Partner: Lessons From a Co-founder Couple

Al and Leanne share the hard-won lessons from years of building a business together as a married couple:

Know how the other person reacts to ideas. Leanne is introverted, Al is not — and understanding those differences changes everything about how you communicate.
Learn to read the room (and each other). Sometimes "what do you think?" actually means "I need validation right now."
Have a shared map. Getting lost on a country road is fine on a date. In business, you need to know where you're going — together.
Play to your strengths. You don't both have to be good at everything. You just need to be good at different things.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

Quitting: "My friend is resigning from a 100% work-from-home role with no job lined up. What are the chances they'll regret it?"
Rest: "I just gave my notice and have an entire week off. Why do I feel guilty about taking time to rest?"
Goals: "Is a £100,000 watch a reasonable goal for a 20-year-old?"

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript

Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

C — REVIEWNice.

Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Work podcast, brought to you by who?

Al ElliottHubSpot, the audio destination for business professionals. Is that right? I never say that.

Leanne ElliottI do it by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. But you knew that. You might also know that my name is Leanne.

Al ElliottAnd you probably also know that my name is Al.

Leanne ElliottI'm a business psychologist.

Al ElliottI'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottWe're here to help you simplify the science of work.

Al ElliottYes, we are. How many times have you said that? What, 96 times now? 97 times? And I still can't say it. I just, I think I switch off when you say that.

Leanne ElliottHow rude!

Al ElliottWell, we will go on to this, but we were celebrating, celebrating last night, and Leanne was very sensible and I was not. And I drank quite a bit of whiskey. So today I'm sounding a bit more hoarse and looking a little, a little more battered. Bags under my— well, I suppose I always have bags under my eyes, but perhaps a little more like suitcases today.

Leanne ElliottTop tip, if you are in a position where celebration is required on a weeknight and alcohol may be on the menu, uh, white wine and soda, plenty of ice. Looks like, you know, you have mainly water as you go.

Al ElliottYeah, I wish I could turn back time. Talking of time, if this is your first time listening on a Tuesday— how about that for a segue? Have you talked— this is your first time listening on a Tuesday, then this is our more laid-back episode. This is basically where we talk about what's going on in the world of work. We have the world-famous Workplace Weekly Workplace Surgery. See, I told you I was hungover. Well, the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put questions to Leanne and she answers them around the, around the world of work.

Leanne ElliottI'll say, I'll take it from here. On today's episode, uh, we are talking about the latest TikTok trend. Been a while. We are exploring Google's speedy onboarding process, and we are asking, is moonlighting the key, the new key to enhancing employee engagement and job satisfaction? We will find out.

Al ElliottPlus, we'll be sharing our biggest lessons as a co-founder couple before we round off the episode with the workplace surgery.

Leanne ElliottBut first, it's my favourite time of the week. It's the news roundup. Cue the jingle, Al. I'm really excited to tell you, Al, that I have a new word.

Al ElliottWhat's your new word, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottTherapy tok.

Al ElliottOkay.

Leanne ElliottTherapy tok.

Al ElliottOkay. Um, it doesn't sound like it needs a whole lot of explanation, but carry on.

Leanne ElliottUm, so this is where therapists share, um, quick mental health tips on TikTok.

Al ElliottThere we go. So next, next item.

Leanne ElliottNow it's quite interesting actually, I saw an article on it. So some of these experts are becoming kind of TikTok famous. There's a therapist called Jeff Gunther, um, who's got more than 2.8 million followers, and another called Meg Josephson who started posting online, um, basically debunking myths, and now not only has a huge following But a book deal. Interesting. So these clips, you might have seen them if you're on the YouTube Shorts. The older people listening, that's basically TikTok for the over-35s, I think. Um, but these clips will be advice on recognizing suicide warning signs, handling anxiety, and they really are getting millions and millions of views. And it sounds pretty good, doesn't it, actually? Because it's real experts sharing proper advice, not just this influencer stuff, with an audience that might not be able to access or afford this kind of support. But what this article was pointing out is how would you actually feel if you stumbled across your own therapist on TikTok? Yeah, it featured, um, the article featured a woman called Kaylin from LA, and she'd had this exact experience and was left feeling a bit weird. Um, she described it, which I thought was quite funny, as seeing a teacher outside of school. We've all done that. I remember seeing my history teacher in, um, leather trousers in real once.

Al ElliottReally?

Leanne ElliottYeah, it's burned into my memory. Um, but I mean, other reactions that, that did make me chuckle, I think you'll like this one, Al, was a comment that said, um, talking to a therapist and then going home and seeing a vague TikTok they posted complaining about a client that sounds like me would be my Joker origin story.

Al ElliottLove it, love it.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, other comments are a bit more, a bit more intense. Some saying that, you know, if they saw their therapist giving advice on TikTok, they'd kill them. Um, other—

Al ElliottSounds like someone who desperately needs therapy.

Leanne ElliottYeah, true. Um, others are more supportive. Other people are saying, you know, well, you know, they saw their therapist talking about their own behavior on TikTok, they wouldn't be mad because it was true and they experienced it. So it is differing, differing opinion. But you have to wonder, don't you, like how much of it is kind of like playful exaggeration, like the Joker comment, and how much is actually a bit of a genuine concern? The article went on to quote an expert from NYU. You know you like your names, Al. I swear I don't pick these articles just for the names, but if I did, I would have picked this one. Ernesto Lira de la Rosa.

Al ElliottOh, Ernesto. Buenos días, Ernesto.

Leanne ElliottBuenos días. Um, so yes, Ernesto pointed out that, um, it's really vital for therapists to basically— they're going to do this, and there's, there's pros and cons to it, but if you're going to do it, so stick to ethical standards of the platforms and ensure that they're really clear about what is general advice and what is actual therapy. Um, and I mean, of course, the conversation extends into other fields too. For example, having a people and culture consultancy in a podcast. Thought so.

Al ElliottWell, a couple of things sprung to mind when you were telling me that. First of all, I think this is a good thing. Um, I say there's, there's actually a, um, a lady, and I can't remember, she's one of the most successful podcasts of all time. First name's Esther. I want to say Esther Perez. Um, and, um, she is a therapist and she started off doing podcasts and the episodes didn't really get traction. Um, but then she started recording the actual, the, the act with the permission, of course, recording the actual sessions. And she's a marriage guidance counselor, I think.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottAnd suddenly her, her, her episode or her podcast took off. So I can see why you might be thinking that. Of course, yes, it's gonna be, ah, I don't know if you hear your therapist complaining about clients, you say, I wouldn't wanna kill them. I'd be so mortified. I'm like, oh my God, that's me. Even if it wasn't me, I'd still think it was me. Another thing which I've seen on Twitter or X, if you, if you are under the age of 43, um, then, um, I saw a guy called Peter Levels who's quite a famous indie hacker on, uh, on Twitter.

C — REVIEWYeah.

Al ElliottAnd he started something called theaitherapist.com, um, where it's basically therapy via an AI chatbot. And that has really kicked off on Twitter, as you can imagine. Some people saying this is the worst thing ever. Some people are saying, well, actually, fair enough, it's pretty cool. Most people are sort of just saying it shouldn't be called therapy AI, it should be called life coaching AI, because therapy, I think, in America is a protected term or something. Does that sound right?

Leanne ElliottYeah, it's interesting, isn't it? And I think ethics is a really, a really interesting debate, and we actually have couple of episodes coming up that will dive into ethics a little bit more in terms of, of data science and also in terms of, um, social media. I think it's interesting because as a psychologist, I'm really bound tightly by 2, 2, at least 2 codes of ethics, 3 in terms of coaching, and then there's the law as well. So it's a part of my practice consistently to reflect on ethics and make sure I'm operating within that. So you might have noticed that if we talk about um, clients on the show, we either have their express permission to do that or we talk about it very generally in a way that is probably more likely an experience we've had with multiple clients. Um, but it is, it is interesting. I think it's more— it's just an evolution, isn't it? If we're starting to, as experts, as professionals, start to share knowledge, um, and, you know, dispel these myths on social media, I think that's a really good thing. But we need to extend our ethical thinking into that, that world as well, I think. So there you go. What have you got, Al?

Al ElliottWell, Inc magazine had an article about how Google uses a 15-minute conversation to onboard. So Google did a load of research to understand why some new employees adapted quicker than others. They concluded with a list of 5 simple onboarding tips for managers to help new hires integrate faster. Here are the tips. First of all, pair new hires with a peer buddy. That doesn't seem like a revolutionary idea for me, but yep, fair enough. Number 2, help new hires build a social network. Now that's probably quite a clever one because once you feel like you belong somewhere, then you just settle in much better. I think we've all had jobs where we felt like the outsider, really. Secure, schedule monthly onboarding check-ins for the first 6 months. I think that's a good idea, and I think most people would probably do it for the first month. Go, hey Derek, how you doing? How you settling in? Just pass them in the hallway. Actually, it's a really smart idea. And if you flip back and I know I keep going on about Dave Klein, I think I've got a bit of a man crush on him. But if he did 1,000 one-to-ones in his job and over a period of like 10 years, and he basically said, that's what they are, they're just monthly check-ins. So really clever. Number 4, encourage open dialogue. Well, I would hope that the culture would encourage open dialogue anyway. I'm not sure necessarily you need to, unless you've got a problem with that, then yeah, you definitely need to find out. how they're feeling and how they're settling in. And finally, meet new hires on their first day to discuss roles and responsibilities. That I think is a really, really important one. Leanne, you've had a few more jobs than me, but I know that sometimes you do go on your first day and it's like your first day at school, isn't it? And you're a bit like, oh, do I—

Leanne ElliottSome, honestly, some first days are like The Hunger Games. It's like, especially with a few new people and it's just like, go. You're like, what do I do? And like, you find out. You find out or you leave.

Al ElliottI can't imagine what the first day Suits is going to be like. You know, Suits, the TV series.

Leanne ElliottGoddamn it!

Al ElliottDo your goddamn job! If you ever want to play a responsible drinking game, then then you you have to drink when they say goddamn it, and they and you have to take a double drink when they say do your goddamn job. Those are the things that seem to happen anyway, which is ironic because on the actual series no one seems to be doing their job. Seem to be walking through doorways and back out of doorways anyway. So basically what Google found is that this has given a 25 percent. Or not given, this has made new hires become operational about 25% faster than those who did not.

Leanne ElliottAre we not— it just don't just seem a bit obvious? Like, I'm sure there's people listening going, um, yeah, yeah. I think the only one that I like on that is kind of pairing people with a peer, because I think people do that naturally if you start with a new, a new starter at the same time. But I think that's a really good idea to, to kind of, yeah, formalise that so you've got somebody to go to. But otherwise, is this not just basic, basic stuff at this point? And Google is saying this is like the gold standard.

Al ElliottIf you're listening to this and thinking this is basic stuff, then good for you, because you have got it. You have got like 90% of it right. I think just the pairing thing might be worthwhile having a little bit of a thought about that, because you want to pair with someone who actually— you want to think about this. It's like, you know, like a kind of a date. You want to think about the shared values, because if you're paired with someone who's Totally the opposite way of doing things, or is just a bit insecure about someone new coming on and taking their job, then that could backfire.

Leanne ElliottI also think I like the, um, the kind of the social network side of it as well. And I also wonder whether if you're in a smaller company, just, you know, over that first month, say, that every new starter sits down with the MD, the ops director, the HR person, the, you know, the payroll person, you know, particularly people they wouldn't necessarily engage with either in terms of level on a day-to-day basis or function in terms of a day-to-day basis. That could be good because they're going to then not only meet people, then they're going to better understand the business as well. Um, so I quite like that. I'd imagine a lot of people are doing this. It's maybe just, as I said, that formalising of some of these things that might just help kind of really see that, that efficiency level go up.

Al ElliottYeah, really good idea. And if you are a leader and you think, well, I'm too busy for this, just think what it would cost you to— if someone left after 2, 3, 4 weeks, or even after 6 months, it's going to cost you like, what do you say, Leanne? 2.5 times the annual salary to replace someone.

Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, conservatively.

Al ElliottYou have 10 minutes, you can justify the time. Anyway, anything else you've seen, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottYeah, a pretty interesting article actually about moonlighting. So moonlighting is when, if you're not sure, people hold a second job or additional jobs outside their main job, their main employment. Um, it's usually pretty controversial, usually not approved by management. Um, but there is, there is a CEO who's actually taken a very different approach. Um, so Yoshihisa Aono Oh, nice. I did have to Google how to pronounce that, um, but with respect.

Al ElliottWhere's he from?

Leanne ElliottUm, he's from— well, he's currently working in and living in Singapore, but I believe he is of Japanese origin.

Al ElliottOkay.

Leanne ElliottUm, so yes, Yosihisa, who actually is encouraging his employees to take up side jobs, reckons that, you know, this is a corporate stance that just isn't quite relevant in 2024. He believes that when his employees work on different projects outside of their main job, they can pick up new skills and experiences and ultimately benefit, um, can be the benefit of them personally and the entire company. Interestingly, research has been done by Indeed that has found an increasing number of employees are moonlighting, and in Singapore it is actually quite high. Over 13% of employees do have a second job, um, mainly because obviously Singapore's kind of expensive, cost of living is going up. They're maybe trying to save for an early retirement, or maybe they're just doing something they're a bit more passionate about on the side. So this CEO is using this trend, um, to his advantage by making it part of the company's appeal and actually saying that, yeah, if you're moonlighting, that's okay. Cool approach, isn't it? Kind of flips, flips it on his head. Um, kind of makes you wonder, maybe if we supported employees in, in their own personal goals as a whole person rather than a slave to our company, maybe that might lead to a more skilled and content workforce. But just a Just a thought.

Al ElliottThis whole thing with Gen Z, and probably much more so with Gen Alpha, the next generation, is that they want to— you say bring the whole per— your whole self to work, but actually they don't want to. They want to have stuff on the side. Side gigs is like, if you look at the Google trend for the, for the term side gig, um, it has just gone up and up and up over the last few years because Gen Z want to have— they want to do exciting things. And sometimes at work, you're not always— well, there's gonna be a lot of time at work, we're probably not doing that exciting thing. So I think this is You know, if you, if you are, if you are very creative, but you're in a job that only allows you to be creative 10% of the time, then doing a moonlighting job or a side gig or something that allows you to be creative in another area, which probably sort of sates your creative appetite in a different way. So I think that's a very, very good thing. What we were celebrating last night, which Leanne very sensibly celebrated in a much more moderate way than I did, was our 17 years since our very first date. That seems a long time. That's a whole child. If our relationship was a child, it'd be driving.

C — REVIEWYeah.

Al ElliottToday, if you're learning to drive, which is quite a strange thing. But we have been a co-founder couple now for about 2 or 3 years. So over 17 years, um, we've had our own thing, done our own thing, and then about 2, 3 years ago, was it, Leanne? We, we joined forces, created our blog, and created the podcast. Yeah, I think we should have a little chat about that, Lee.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I think we should as well. Things that we've learned, things that we wish we'd have known, uh, maybe some tips if you are a co-founder couple, because it's something that people find quite interesting, isn't it, when they say, well, you work with your husband. Oh, I'd kill my husband if I worked with him. Or you kind of get comments like that, don't you? How do you make it work? How do you do this? Um, so yeah, so I mean, 17 years, like you said, we've, we've kind of been podcasting together for probably earlier than when we started the business, haven't we? We had, um, another show. Uh, so yeah, what have we learned over the past 5 or 6 years working together?

Al ElliottI think first of all is knowing what, how the other person reacts to ideas. Leanne is very introverted. I'm very, not very extroverted, but I'm much more extroverted than Leanne. Leanne taught me that when she says something out loud, she's done 80% of her thinking. And she's, she's doing the 20% of thinking out loud by talking about it. I'm completely the opposite. If I say something out loud, I've done 20% of thinking. And I want to talk through the remaining 80%. That's something we learned. I learned really straight on because if I said something, oh, Leanne, why don't we do another podcast? Then you'd be like, no, we're not doing another podcast. That's a stupid idea. All it was was just an idea that came to me that I wanted to kind of chat through and I knew was never gonna go anywhere. So that was a really important thing. Is there anything else that you've learned, love?

Leanne ElliottYeah. I mean, I don't think I go, that's a stupid idea, don't do that. I think it's more of a case you'd be like, I wanna start another thing doing this. And I'll go, yeah, okay, sounds good. And you're like, wait a minute, I wanna, I've only thought about 20% of this.

Al ElliottThat's right.

Leanne ElliottWhereas I'm approaching it, it was like, oh, you've, you've, you just be looking for validation at this point. You've already thought through 80% of the idea or the problem. Um, so I'll be more likely to go, yeah, yeah, sounds good. I'll be like, no, no, I need, I need more. Here's interesting. I think that is a good one. I made a little list of things that I, I thought might be useful, just because in case I forget. Overcommunication.

Al ElliottIs that a good or a bad thing?

Leanne ElliottI think it's a good thing, and I think we do it a lot. I think we are, we are very reflective people anyway, but I think one thing we've been increasingly better at, especially as we started working together more directly, more intensely, is having these conversations of, we had this conversation, I reacted like this. It was because when you said this, it triggered this. I overreacted, and I'm sorry for that, but please don't do that. To give you an example, we were in the car, and that's the other thing as well, it can spill over into life as well. So we were in the car, and it's probably where we have the majority of our arguments, actually. We don't have that many, but if we do, they happen in the car.

Al ElliottThey do.

Leanne ElliottAnd we were driving somewhere we hadn't been We decided to take a little cheeky country road, suddenly ended up just thorn bushes on each side. I had to reverse, um, I was driving, um, and Al didn't shout at me, but at the time felt like he was shouting at me and blaming me, um, whereas we'd both decided to go, to go this route. Um, so I get— when I get angry, I get quite, um, I get emotional, I get upset, I start to like not cry, but I want to cry, so I won't talk. Um, so then we got home, like maybe half an hour later, I was like— so the reason I reacted so strongly to that was because in moments like that where I feel that a decision has been made jointly, then I'm made to feel like I'm to blame, that triggers something that I experienced in childhood as the youngest sibling, because that's just what you do, isn't it? You blame the younger one. Um, so that kind of triggered me, so then I overreacted. And then we kind of had this conversation, and you said to me, didn't you, well, actually, as an older child, I'm used to blaming the younger person when things go wrong. So we kind of had this, this, um, this exchange, and it sounds overlabored, and it probably sounds a bit, maybe a bit millennial, that you're like, oh, I'm triggered. Um, but I think it's more that the self-awareness that you, you can build in yourself, and then also the awareness you can build about your partner and how they behave and react, it's just about not taking it personally.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnd if you're in business together as well, you need to be able to have this, this communication where it's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna react, I'm gonna push back, and it's not a personal thing, it's a business thing. So I just think overcommunication is good because it can get you out of some pickles.

Al ElliottYeah, I think that we do fall into— like Leanne said, I'm the eldest of 4, so it's not that necessarily I want to blame or put all the blame on the youngest, just that I know I'm gonna get the crap when I get back home for something that's broken. I'm gonna get the blame for it. So It's sort of self-preservation. So yeah, that's really, really important, understanding where you sit and also how people or how your other half reacts and learning. And what, 17 years? That was, that was 16 years and 11 months ago.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottAnd I was still learning like, oh, okay, right, I've learned that. One other thing that we have learned is the asynchronous communication. It is so tempting. Like, you can't really see the setup here, but basically I'm looking at the camera here, but Leanne is over there. And so we are sitting at the same table and this is where we work. So it's really tempting sometimes to have an idea, look up and just go, hey love, I've got this idea or I've got this question or whatever. And when you're in flow, particularly if like I'm editing or Leanne's writing or something, that's just so detrimental and can take and ruin what you're up to. So we've started doing things like, um, I was going to say IM, God, I'm so old, DMs, uh, using Google Chat or Or, uh, we use a lot of, um, WhatsApp groups. So for example, we'll say, uh, we have a WhatsApp group for the shopping. So if we have to nip out and get something, it's called the Nip, the WhatsApp group. It's just Leanne and I. But every time I think, oh, I'm— we've run out of something, I'll stick it on that rather than come in and go, hey Leanne, we just run out of shampoo. And she's like, dude, I'm in the middle of something. So that's sort of asynchronous communication is really good. Allowing someone— like, the rule is if you've got your headphones on, you can't ask someone unless it's really, really important. You can't ask someone, the other person, unless it's really, really important.

Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah, I think that's a really good one. And the last one, I mean, we could talk all day about this, to be honest. There's so many different things. We could probably name 17 things for our 17 years, couldn't we? But I think the other one that's really important is boundaries. And this is really, really hard. Really, really hard. It's not as easy. I don't, I don't think it's as easy to go, right, after 5 o'clock, we don't talk about work. Because, you know, if you're in a relationship, if you're not working together, that's what you talk about. You go, oh my God, you remember when this happened? And then today, and then I got this email from such and and such, and, or how amazing was this opportunity? It's, it's natural to want to talk and reflect on your working day, and you want to do that with your partner. So I think setting a hard boundary is really hard. And I think as well, we get— sometimes we get quite excited about talking about work things outside of work, particularly decompressed first, and we'll pick up an idea. So I think that's really hard. I think again, it comes back to that— some boundaries in terms of typically weekends, we don't talk about work that much. Um, I think we're both quite good at kind of weekend is a clear boundary for us. And again, bringing that over communication. So you'll often say to me when I come through, um, after I've, I've finished working, you'll say to me, have you got the headspace to talk about this? I'll be like, give me 20 minutes, or no, can we talk about that tomorrow? And I think it's that. And again, it's learning that I— it's not that I don't want to hear Al's idea, it's not that I want to engage with him, I just haven't got the energy to invest in that conversation the way that, that Al deserves, um, as a professional. So I think that's important. And I think what I'm— I think what we probably need to work more on, we maybe let slip over the last 6 to 12 months just because we've been so busy carving out Al and Leanne time. Not Al and Leanne Truth and Lies, Al and Leanne Oblong, just Al and Leanne to be a married couple. Um, yeah, going out for dinner, going You know, doing stuff like that. So I think, um, that's the thing as well. Have, have a date night, have things set in the diary where it's just gonna be, um, you time. And that is hard boundary— no work talk, no nothing. Um, yeah, and I think we're still working on that. That's probably the hardest one that I think is just a continuous effort to balance that.

Al ElliottYep. And, and just as a little bonus, if you, if you are able to moonlight from your co-founder couple Yeah. A business, that's probably a smart thing as well, because if nothing else, it gives you something else to talk about rather than the actual work that you're both doing or the company you're both starting. So, um, that's probably a good idea anyway. So, and also, if you are a co-founder couple or you have questions, whatever, jump in the comments if you're watching this on YouTube. If you're on, um, the— on Spotify or whatever, in fact, Spotify, you can leave us questions. I don't know how to get them, but you can leave questions. But you can email us or go over to LinkedIn and, uh, join the conversation there. Search for Truth, Lies and Work.

Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely can. So yes, after this short break, join us again for the weekly Workplace Surgery where I will be answering your workplace questions. See you in a sec. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

C — REVIEWAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.

Al ElliottAnd you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.

C — REVIEWWe've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

C — REVIEWIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

C — REVIEWI am.

Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back.

C — REVIEWDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.

Al ElliottI'll cut that out.

C — REVIEWKeep that in.

Al ElliottWelcome back. Let's kick off this weekly workplace surgery with the first question. By the way, if you have a question you'd like me to put to Leanne about the workplace, check out the show notes for our email address. As I've said before, Leanne doesn't see these beforehand, so I kind of surprise her. So it does mean a little bit of editing work because sometimes Leanne will take a full, like, 30 seconds to think about her, her answer.

Leanne ElliottLet's see.

Al ElliottSo are we ready for question number 1?

Leanne ElliottYes.

Al ElliottSo my friend is resigning his 100% work from home role with no job lined up. My friend's company recently went through a couple of management changes and a merger. Due to this, several people resigned from the company, including his direct manager. Now, he works in software development, about $100,000 salary. It doesn't say whether it's US or UK, but let's assume US. And from what I understand, his job is really low stress. Maybe he works 2 or 3 hours a day, and this expectation has not changed yet. He doesn't plan to get a new job before resigning. He also plans to take 3 months off to visit his home country and potentially buy property there. He has no retirement plans at this point. So he start— he then is gonna apply for new jobs when he returns after 3 months, um, perhaps after he's blown through his savings, or at least most of it. I don't know. Um, I expressed my concern. This is the person who's answered the question. I expressed my concern, but he said it'll be fine. He can survive for a year without work. I advised he look for a new job before he goes, or takes personal time off and takes care of his affairs during that time, but he refused. He's dead set on resigning this week because he absolutely needs 3 months off. Leanne, what are his chances in the current market to regain a similar work-from-home role making a similar salary and possibly working 2 to 3 hours a day when he returns?

Leanne ElliottI think the person is asking the wrong question. What are the chances? Who knows? I mean, I don't know enough about this person, their expertise, their niche skills, how in demand they're going to be. Is the current market tough? Yes. Are there still vacancies out there? Yes. Are they Fully remote and potentially lighter touch. Yes. So in, in terms of, of him gaining re— reemployment in exactly the same way, assuming he wants to, I mean, he's probably got as much chance as the next person, or, you know, maybe more. I don't know enough about him to say that. I guess I'm more confused of like, why? Why? It's very sweet that you're concerned, and it's clearly you, you're thinking in this way. You think from a very risk-averse perspective, and I'm very risk-averse, so I empathize with that. But this person is— has— sounds like they've weighed up the risks, they've made a decision, they've got a plan, and they're sticking to it. There's a few things here that I think give me clues into this person's current mental state. First, that they're away from their home country. As an expat myself, I know how, how difficult that can be sometimes, particularly when you're going through a transition of some sort, um, because you don't necessarily have that support network as easily ready around you. So that's really tough. You said that his— there's been lots of structural changes. His manager resigned, other people did. It sounds like there's been a fundamental shift in the culture of the organization he works for. So with that, it isn't the job that he signed up for, and it isn't perhaps now the environment he wants to be in. You also said as well that he wants to take 3 months off, and he absolutely has to take 3 months off. Um, it sounds like either he is— he is, um, I don't want to say burnt out because you said it's a light touch, and that's what it might look from the outside. You don't always know for sure. So he could be burnt out, or it could be called what's rust out, where we don't have enough challenge in our jobs, and that can have a detrimental effect in the same way burnout can on our mental health. It sounds like this person's being quite sensible. They've got 12 months runway. It sounds like they're going back to their home country to buy property. That sounds like a pretty pretty decent pension plan to me. Um, so I think it's really, you know, you, you've, you've aired your concerns, you've shared them with them, you've been told, I think what sounds quite politely, to back off. This is a time that you back off. And I think the most important thing you can do as a friend, stay connected with this person while they do take their, their 3 months out. Um, and if they do come back and if they do want to try and get back into that type of job again and they do struggle, Don't turn around and say, I told you so. That's not going to be helpful. It's going to put up barriers, and it's probably going to be really detrimental to your, to your friendship. Um, so yeah, I, I would say also reflect on it and take some lessons for this. As a risk-averse person, I've learned a lot from Al in terms of, of when it's really smart to take a calculated risk, or indeed take a risk that's necessary to, to, um, to invest more in yourself and your own well-being. So I think I've not answered your question at all about how easy it is to get a job. I don't know enough about them, but I think you're— I think you are missing, missing the point perhaps of how to best respond and support this person.

Al ElliottI'm glad you said that, that they were risk-averse and this person has got maybe a slightly different risk profile. I think that's a really, really important thing to point out. Um, the other thing is perhaps there's a little resentment there.

Leanne ElliottA bit of jelly. Yeah.

Al ElliottAsk yourself, um, you know, person who asked this question, ask yourself, why are you so concerned about their life? You say you care about them. Is it that actually you're just a bit jealous and like you wish you had that job? And it seems like, you know, you don't know what it's like. You say 2 to 3 hours a day. If you, for example, it's— I think they said they were in software, didn't they? Or so, or a developer.

C — REVIEWMm-hmm.

Al ElliottThat 2 to 3 hours a day can often be a result of a further 3 to 4 hours of thinking, really deep thinking. So you're just seeing stuff from the outside. So it, you know, what do they always say? The grass is always greener. Don't walk in someone's shoes. What is it? Walk a mile in someone's shoes before you criticize them. That way you're a mile away and you've got their shoes. Anyway, so question number 2, Leanne. This is another very similar one. I thought it'd be good to group them together.

C — REVIEWMm-hmm.

Al ElliottI just gave my employer my notice for quitting and I have an entire week off. Not 3 months, but I take a week off before I start my new company. But I feel guilty for taking that time off, and I don't really know why.

Leanne ElliottBecause you have been conditioned by hustle culture, and taking time off is a slight on your determination to progress in your career and succeed. Oh, societal norms are strong. They're strong. It really does impact us massively, the people around us. I mean, the thing is, I'd say, and clearly you're a very, you're a very determined person, ambitious person, and very conscious of, of wanting to maintain, um, maybe this, this, your identity or this persona that you are busy and busyness means success and importance. Take a breath. It's a week. You'll be okay. And I think as well as you, as you progress in your your, um, your working life, particularly as you get older— and by older I mean kind of like our age, in your 40s— um, you realize that rest and recovery is really, really important, especially for maintaining productivity and performance and creativity. The earlier you can learn to build in this rest and recovery, the more longevity you're going to have in your role as you age. And also in terms of managing stress and all that types of thing, it's really important to recharge. And lots of psychologist will, will tell you this. One perspective that I really like is Adam Grant. You've heard of Adam Grant. Um, he basically talks about rest and recovery usually get lumped into one in the, in a sense that you rest and therefore you recover, and it's not. They're 2 distinct things. So rest, you know, relaxation sounds a bit, you know, intuitive. You know what it is. Recovery is different. It isn't just about kind of taking those breaks. It's about engaging in activities that bring you energy, that recharge you. And Al and I talk about this a lot. He said, I like to cook, so of an evening, it is my, my just indulge in my recovery activity of cooking, cooking dinner. Al's like, well, that's, that's an energy drain for me, so I can't imagine why you'd want to do that. Are you sure you're happy to do it? But for me, that's resting. It's switching off. It's engaging in something that takes my mind off the day, um, stops me binge-watching a TV show or going through social media. Um, you know, it's a meaningful activity that brings me joy. That is recovery. So if you feel guilty, if you're feeling guilty about the rest aspect, engage in the recovery aspect. What do you like to do? Um, a hobby, going to the gym, catch up with friends, with family, read a book, start a podcast. I don't know, whatever it is that, that brings you joy, start to maybe engage in that this week to help you detach from your previous role before you start your new role. It's really important to have that mental reset, particularly between jobs. Um, so I'd imagine you're feeling guilty about the rest aspect of it. And if that is the case, I would say this week, invest in your recovery activities.

Al ElliottThis, this makes me think of the Type A personality where you've got to be always busy. Um, I think as you get older, and this is not condescending in any way, I'm just— I've noticed that when I was in my 20s, like, I felt like I had to be doing something every hour of the day, even though I'm not Type A. by any stretch, but, um, I felt like I had to be doing something. And as I got older, I realized that actually it— you've only got a— you've got a bucket, and I'm not going to use the word, but the F word, a bucket of Fs that you give.

C — REVIEWFudge.

Al ElliottFudge. A bucket of fudge. Just think about last week when I came out as a fudger.

Leanne ElliottMore fudge.

Al ElliottMore fudge. So, um, you've got a bucket of fudges and you can only— you've only got a certain amount of fudge that you can give out. This is not the greatest analogy I've ever Um, and I think that when you're younger, your bucket's bigger. When you're smaller— when you're older, your bucket's smaller. Sounds a bit rude. Might move away from this analogy, but what I'm trying to say is that you only have the energy for a certain amount of things. As you get older, it's more— it's so important when you're younger to learn how to do this recovery, to learn how to rest, because otherwise you'll get to your 40s and you'll just— you will just burn out. You'll crash and burn because you won't have taught yourself how to relax, how to recover.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottAnd you probably aren't that one top 0.1% who can sleep 4 hours a night and work 20 hours a day. You're probably not that. Interestingly, not seen much of Gary Vaynerchuk recently. I'm guessing he's learned that.

Leanne ElliottDo you know what? There's been some recent research on that, um, but actually like physiologically, um, neurologically research on sleep, and there's absolutely no evidence to show that, that there are just some people that can have less sleep and not have a detrimental effect on their health. It will. It absolutely does. They're just maybe a bit better at hiding it. So yeah, that's bullshit. Um, but yeah, recover. And as I was saying before, he likes to code. That's a recovery activity. There's loads of different ones that you'd think it might feel like working, but if it's only building that energy, um, then, then yeah, it's, um— but yeah, if you're interested in that, go and check out Adam Grant. Actually, I think he did a podcast episode about it not so long ago. Um, so yeah, um, Work Life, Adam Grant.

Al ElliottYeah. And also just a little tip, don't, don't take your recovery activity and turn that into I've got to be brilliant at this as well.

Leanne ElliottOr a side hustle.

Al ElliottOr a side hustle.

Leanne ElliottDon't do that. Yeah, someone said to me once, like, because I used to really be into baking, I've extended now to more cooking in general, and people say to me, oh, why don't you start a business? And I'm like, because this is my joy. Yeah, I don't want to make a job out of this. Um, but anyway, let's move on to another question. I have a question for you. What?

Al ElliottHang on, I ask the questions.

Leanne ElliottI have a question for you. I saw this online, I saw it on Reddit, and I thought, I wonder how Al would answer this. So this person says, is making $5,000 a month online actually attainable? I keep seeing posts on social media that say something like there's no excuse to not be making at least $5K a month at 20 years old. Usually this person has some kind of course in their bio, or if they don't, the answer is affiliate marketing or sales. I'm wondering how true this is. I haven't really tried affiliate marketing, but I would think to make even $5,000 a month off of it, you need to have a really decent following. And as for sales, you would need to be hired by a company first. So my question is, is making $5,000 a month actually a reasonable goal for a 20-year-old with no experience or education?

Al ElliottUm, the answer is very simple. It's yes and no.

Leanne ElliottIt depends.

Al ElliottIt depends. It depends. Um, if someone is— if someone sits standing there on TikTok with a £100,000 watch, leaning on a Lamborghini, telling you that you've got no excuse not to be making this money, then they— what they're doing is, is in marketing terms creating this— I forget what it's called, it's called something gap, um, where they're basically saying this is your future, you are here, there's a bit missing. And what they're doing is they're taking that pain and they're smacking it to try and make it painful for you so that you go, well, I want to be there, I am here, the, the solution to this is Where is the solution? Oh, it just so happens that this person's got a course. Bullshit. I call absolute bullshit on all of that. So I say no, there is no course. I've got— I've bought lots of courses. When I was a kid, I bought books like The Lazy Man's Guide to Riches and all this. Nothing ever worked because the whole point of making money online is you create something that has got value and people are willing to spend money on that. So if you create something online, they go, I'm going to do affiliate marketing and I know that I'm going to go and bring leads in for lawn mowers and you live in an apartment and you never mowed a lawn in your life and you couldn't give a flying crap about lawn mowers, that's not going to work because one, you'll burn out. Um, 2, you're not really invested in it. 3, it's going to feel like a job. And 4, when you don't make that money, you're going to like, well, I obviously chose the wrong niche or, um, something went wrong, or maybe it was the course that I bought. I'll go and buy another course. There is only really one way to make money. And I say online, it, it, it, online is the new offline, and then offline is the new online. It doesn't really matter whether you're doing offline, online, whether you're doing it over the phone, whether you do cold email, cold DMs. Find an expensive, painful problem that someone has and find a solution for it. If someone— if you're talking about lawnmowers, for example, then just by sending people to Amazon to buy lawnmowers and making a quid for every lawnmower they Unless you're really into grass, cutting grass, unless you're really into that, that's not really gonna be something that is sustainable. Whereas what is an expensive, painful problem? Perhaps someone who's got a huge garden and they want to buy a robot lawnmower. Okay, that's different because someone who's investing in a robot lawnmower isn't just going to buy the cheapest lawnmower. So you can actually make some really good money on that because you could potentially create a Um, a guide on the best lawnmowers. You could sell that. I mean, if you go onto something called fool.co.uk, it's Motley Fool. I think it's .co.uk, but Motley Fool's been around for about 25 years. They sell information and they solve a painful, expensive problem. You can go and buy a report on which stock to go and buy today. Stocks and shares is what, what they do, investment. You can go and buy a report for that for about £500. You can also go and buy a very similar report. It's gonna be the same. It's gonna be a PDF, but that'll be for £5,000. Yeah. £5,000. What makes the difference? Well, the £5,000 is one, one giving you an entire investment portfolio that you can invest in today that's been picked by or handpicked by investors. It's, it's an expensive problem. All you're talking about really is solving an expensive and painful problem and doing it with ethics. There is no quick fix. Those people— if you look at anyone who's made money, you look at Zuckerbergs, you look at whatever, It took them a long time to get where they are. Overnight successes usually take about 5 to 10 years, and if they don't, then it's usually just really, really, really lucky. So my advice is forget all that. Stop trying to think, I wanna make 5 grand a month. Stop trying to think, I should be making 5 grand a month, and what's wrong with me because I'm not making it? Instead, just invest on solving an expensive, painful problem and providing a genuine solution that helps people. That will be all you need. It'll take you a year. It might take you 2 years. I'm sorry, but if you are 20 or 19 and thinking, why am I not making 5 grand a month? My friend, you've got probably 60, or if you're 20 now, you might have 80 years left of your life. You can spend 3 or 4 of it just building a great audience and building a great product for them that genuinely helps and solves their problem.

Leanne ElliottYeah. And I think I'd just add that, you know, you said, is it a reasonable goal for a 20-year-old? I'd say, is it a reasonable goal for you? Do you want to be an entrepreneur? Do you want to take on this risk? Is it a side hustle? Is it what you see as your long-term career? Um, what, what do you want to achieve in life aside from the financial reward that comes with that? Because if you can think about that now as a 20-year-old, then that is really going to shape, as Al said, your, your, um, how you're an entrepreneur, the products that you want to do, how you add value, how you solve that problem. So I would say that if you can invest the time rather than comparing yourself to somebody else, trying to understand what you want, then you can be able to set goals that are reasonable for you, um, and in line with your experience and education. Um, yeah, this comparison thing is really probably the dark side of social media, isn't it? I would— yeah, I would invest some time. What is a reasonable goal for you right now as a 20-year-old is to explore and test and try stuff because there are so many things out there and you need to figure out what's going to bring you the joy and what's going to bring you the fulfillment and what you're going to give enough fudge about to want to do in 20, 30, 40 years' time. And then you won't be talking about 5 grand a month, you might be talking about 50 grand a month depending on what you do. Um, so yeah, that's what I'd say.

Al ElliottI love it, I love it. There's, uh, we use this quite a lot. I think it was Roosevelt who said this, that comparison is a thief of joy. 100%. People buy things they don't want with money they don't have to impress people they don't even like. This is the problem with social media. And I was listening to something the other day when I was driving down the road and they were like, yeah, so there I've got my Bentley and I've got my something and look at my, my ice and my thousand, you know, $100,000 watch. I'm like, look, take it from an old fart like me. I have had— I've built a business that made a lot of money. I've also been bankrupt. And we're now building businesses that are making a decent amount of money, but not millions and millions and millions. It doesn't affect your happiness. In any way. Money, up to it— Leanne always says up to a certain point, I think it's £70,000 a year, that's what affects your happiness. Anything over £70,000 is not going to make you happier, and in fact it's going to make you— probably damage you. This is my opinion, hot take. The Bezos, Zuckerbergs, um, the— who's the Air guys? Altman. They're damaged people. They have to compete. They, they don't need more money. Bezos doesn't need more money. He wants to win. So then there's a story about this guy in Denmark, I think it was, or maybe Norway. Um, he was the richest man in Norway worth a number of billion, billion, whatever Norway is, krone, whatever it is, the, the thing up there. Um, and then he dropped to number 4 and stepped in front of a train and killed himself because he was like, I'm no longer number 1. Can you imagine dropping down and going, oh, well, I'm only the 4th richest person in Sweden. Well, that's the end of my life. Just be really careful. Money— life is not about money. Life is about waking up in the morning, going to bed at night, and in between doing something worthwhile that you love.

Leanne ElliottI need to give you questions more often. That was great.

Al ElliottOkay, so I think that's the end, Leanne. Is there anything else to add? Do we need to talk about what's going on and what's happened, what's going to come on the pod?

Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, regular listeners will know that last Thursday we had Lydia and Amelia Miller from Ivy.jobs. Really interesting co-founders who are trying to solve the gender pay gap with technology. Go and check that out. And this Thursday, you're excited about this Thursday, aren't you?

Al ElliottYes, I'm excited because if you've ever read a book called The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People written by Dr. Stephen Covey— am I saying this right, or is it Covey?

Leanne ElliottYeah, Covey.

Al ElliottYeah, we learned, we learned on the, on the interview I was saying it wrong. So I'm a bit paranoid about saying it. Uh, so we've got his Chief People Officer. Now it is the company, and I'm not going to spoil it, but the company that Covey, uh, incorporated or created has now become the most trusted leadership company in the world. So imagine what, how interesting it's going to be to talk to number one, the person who teaches all of Covey's stuff, but also he's been a Chief People Officer for that company for about 18 years. So we've got an amazing guest on Thursday. If you're not subscribed, what's wrong with you? Click that subscribe button. That's all you need to do. Oh, and leave us a review.

Leanne ElliottA nice one.

Al ElliottA nice review. Anything else to add, my love?

Leanne ElliottNo, I think that's it. Watch out for, um, for this episode next Tuesday because I'm gonna be phoned in. I'm talking about boundaries. I'm, I'm going away for 10 days and leaving Al to fend for himself. So, um, so yes, that'll be fun. I'll be over— I'll be here over Zoom for our episode next Tuesday. We'll see how that goes.

Al ElliottSo if you don't watch us on YouTube, jump on YouTube next Tuesday and just see how well I've coped with, at that point, 8 days on my own. You'll probably see I'll be unshaven, uh, crushed shirt, and, uh, and probably, I don't know, maybe a whiskey. No, I won't be touching whiskey for a long time. Okay guys, we'll see you very, very soon. Thank you for joining us. Bye-bye. Yes, I'm excited because if you've ever written a written