Episode 10 · 3 November 2022 · 40:32
Why Imposter Syndrome is Not as Common as You Think
Why Imposter Syndrome is Not as Common as You Think
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What is imposter syndrome?
Why psychologists call it 'imposter phenomenon,' not syndrome
The dissonance at the heart of the experience
The original 1978 study — and its problematic sample
Is it all made up? The truth, the lie, and the gray
Why the label stuck — and who it left out
The brass facts: what the systematic review actually found
Publication bias and the gender question
Who actually experiences imposter phenomenon?
The uncomfortable link to narcissism
Are there any upsides? (Spoiler: not really)
What to do if you think you have it
Thinking errors — the 10 that crush your mental strength
Catastrophizing, mind reading and all-or-nothing thinking
What leaders should do if someone on their team has it
360s, engagement surveys and informal check-ins
Closing thoughts — it can be managed
Show notes
Why Imposter Syndrome is Not as Common as You Think
Truth, Lies & Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) get curious about the famous "condition" that some research suggests affects up to 82% of the population. But is imposter syndrome real? Is it a syndrome at all? And could the label be doing more harm than good?
From the psychology nerdery of the original 1978 study to the thinking errors that keep us stuck, Al and Leanne unpack the truth, the lies, and the gray area in between — including the uncomfortable possibility that imposter phenomenon might secretly be a form of narcissism.
Top 3 Takeaways
It's a phenomenon, not a syndrome. Imposter syndrome isn't in the DSM — it's a psychological phenomenon first described in 1978. Calling it a "syndrome" gives it more clinical weight than it actually has.
The 82% statistic deserves scrutiny. When you dig into the systematic review — 62 peer-reviewed studies and over 14,000 individuals — the picture is more nuanced. The original research was based on a narrow, non-representative sample, and publication bias has shaped what we think we know.
If you're experiencing it, get curious about your thinking errors. All-or-nothing thinking, mind reading and catastrophizing keep imposter phenomenon alive. Naming the error is the first step to breaking the loop.
📚 Resources Mentioned
Interesting reads:
- 4 Ways to Combat Imposter Syndrome on Your Team (HBR)
- Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome (HBR)
- Why Imposter Syndrome Isn't All That Bad (Forbes)
- Impostor Syndrome Has Its Advantages (HBR)
- The Imposter Phenomenon (APA)
Thinking errors:
The systematic review in full:
Diversity & Inclusion audits:
Book mentioned:
- The Leader's Guide to Resilience by Dr. Audrey Tang
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast. So my name is Al.
Leanne ElliottMy name is Leanne.
Al ElliottAnd if you've been listening or watching for a little while, then you probably know already that Leanne is the expert in people and culture, and I am not. So Leanne, give us your 10-second introduction into how amazing you are.
Leanne ElliottMy name is Leanne, and I'm amazing. 10 seconds, nailed it.
Al ElliottWell, maybe just expand a little bit on why.
Leanne ElliottA little bit more context, sure. My name is Leanne Elliott. I'm a business psychologist, and I've been working in the world of people and culture for the last 15 years. 15 years or so. And my job is to basically create work environments in which people can thrive and care as much about the business as the business owners and leaders do too.
Al ElliottCool. And I am not that. I'm a business owner and co-founder of this. And so I will be asking Leanne questions that us as founders who don't have the expertise and the 15, 20 years experience that Leanne's got, asking the questions that really matter to us. So today we are talking about imposter syndrome. So we have a quiz for you, listener. What do you— what do the following people have in common? Sheryl Sandberg, Serena Williams, Arianna Huffington from Huffington Post, I think, Michelle Obama, Albert Einstein, and Howard Schultz. That's the guy who did Starbucks, I think, wasn't it?
Leanne ElliottSure was.
Al ElliottSo shout out now if you're in the car, shout out the answer. Maybe not.
Leanne ElliottGreat hair.
Al ElliottThat's true. Einstein did have great hair. Really good hair.
Leanne ElliottMichelle Obama. I mean, come on.
Al ElliottTrue, true. Okay, so what is the answer, Leah?
Leanne ElliottThe answer is that they are all self-proclaimed sufferers of imposter syndrome. So today we're gonna dive deep into this famous condition in inverted commas. Uh, you'll find out, um, and figure out the truth and lies behind this affliction and what What it is and how it can possibly affect up to 82% of the population, apparently.
Al ElliottThat is a lot of people.
Leanne ElliottIt's a lot of people.
Al ElliottSo should we start by saying, what is imposter syndrome?
Leanne ElliottYes. So bear with me, I'm gonna get my psychology nerd out now, okay? Al, stop me if I go too far. So, imposter syndrome. I actually prefer to call it imposter phenomenon, and it was first described by a couple of psychologists called Pauline Rose Clance and Suzanne Imes back in 1978. And they basically observed that high-performing or high-achieving individuals, despite all of their successes, fail to internalise these accomplishments. Basically, have lots of self-doubt, a fear of being exposed as a fraud. Typically, when people are experiencing imposter phenomenon, they struggle to attribute their performance to themselves. They'll either say, oh, it was luck, or, I had a massive amount of help here. It's, it's, it's one of, it's one of the self-doubt, I think, is the kind of the central theme of it. But more than that, people who do have imposter phenomenon or experiencing it and do have a setback in life that we all do, they'll attribute that as proof that they are in fact an imposter.
Al ElliottSo how do you differentiate imposter syndrome from being very British syndrome, where we tend not to take it? We tend to go, oh no, it wasn't me. No, no, it was, it was, we're very lucky that day.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, I think the thing with, with imposter phenomenon in its purest sense is such this kind of dissonance between achieving these great things and feeling like you had nothing to do with it causes a lot of stress, and that itself can lead to burnout. So yeah, that's, that's the difference really between being modest and actually, or being, having self-doubt, or experiencing imposter phenomenon.
Al ElliottMakes perfect sense. Okay, so you called it imposter phenomenon, not imposter syndrome.
Leanne ElliottImposter what?
Al ElliottPhenomenon.
Leanne ElliottPhenomenon. I think there was an extra nom in there.
Al ElliottMaybe I've been watching the Muppets a little bit too much. So tell us, what is it? Why is it called a phenomenon, phenomenon, and not a syndrome?
Leanne ElliottYeah, so I think the first and simplest answer is it's not a syndrome. So, in terms of kind of a syndrome, which would be a collection of symptoms which are usually associated with a particular disease or disorder, it's not recognised as that in the DSM-5, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. I love how psychologists are always with the catchy names.
Al ElliottThey're very, they're very commercially minded, aren't they?
Leanne ElliottVery commercially minded.
Al ElliottNaming their papers.
Leanne ElliottYes, but this is basically the handbook that professionals will use all over the world to diagnose a whole variety of mental disorders. disorders, and imposter syndrome does not appear in the DSM. Similarly, imposter syndrome can be classed as other things in the psychology world or in the mental wellness work. And one of those is, is a cognitive distortion, or what's more commonly known, commonly known as a thinking error. So a thinking error is when we use inadequate data or inappropriate data to draw conclusions. And because of that data being inadequate or insufficient, it means we're drawing illogical conclusions. And that's what is— that is what a thinking error is, or a type of thinking error.
Al ElliottDid you just have a thinking error then when you said that?
Leanne ElliottI've had my whole day of thinking errors, honestly. But yes, and in this context, imposter syndrome is known as phonism. So this is where exactly what the description I just gave you, imposter syndrome is. It's somebody feeling that if they get something wrong, Fail in one particular task, people are gonna generalize that failure to all aspects of their life and/or work and call them out as the fraud that they are.
Al ElliottThat makes perfect sense. So it is a phenomenon and not a syndrome. And, uh, it is essentially down to when you have this thinking error where you're not just being polite and saying, oh, it wasn't me, it was the team. You actually genuinely in your heart, heart believes, believe that it was external forces that, that achieved this thing rather than you.
Leanne ElliottExactly. When we tie that together with what, what we said earlier, that people who experience imposter phenomenon are typically high-intelligent, high achievers, it's this, this mismatch, this dissonance that causes stress and therefore burnout, and potentially dips in performance as well. The other thing to consider about imposter syndrome is the actual study that first found this phenomenon. And I think that's really important. If you're considering any kind of intervention when it comes to people and culture, and you're using, quite rightly, theory to inform your practice, don't be afraid of scrutinising the theory. Not all theory is equal. Not all theory is as high quality as another, or we have to bear in mind the time and context in which that theory was created. So if we take imposter phenomenon, for example, it was found in 1978. And it was done with a sample that was 100% women. Now, let's think about the world of work for a woman in the 1970s. What comes to mind, Al?
Al ElliottThe last season of Mad Men.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm. The—
Al Elliottif anyone's seen any UK drama called Life on Mars, where it was set in the '70s, any kind of, like, drama from the '90s was often set in the '70s in the workplace, which seemed to be a lot of, like, Oh, smack her on the bottom and run along, run along, love, and go and get us a cup of tea, kind of thing.
Leanne ElliottGet me a coffee, sweet cheeks. Yeah. Yeah. And sadly, you know, that, that was the case. And, but if we consider that the context, the political context at the time, the Sex Discrimination Act didn't pass in the UK until the mid-1970s. In the US until about then as well, the mid-'70s. Did you know that women couldn't apply for credit in their own name without a male cosigner?
Al ElliottWell, they need to be controlled.
Leanne ElliottWell, that's what— well, that was the thought of the day, Al.
Al ElliottJoking, obviously.
Leanne ElliottOf course. And then the Pregnancy Discrimination Act in the US, similar act in the UK, which basically means that women's jobs are protected while they have babies and go on maternity. That also didn't come in till the mid-1970s. So there is an argument, and I think quite a valid argument, that this phenomenon was observed in a sample of women in the 1970s, who were more than likely in workplaces where their environment contained a lot of bias, a lot of discrimination. So feeling this kind of self-doubt, or being, being questioned in your role, I think actually just sounds like a fair observation of the environment they were operating in. So actually, it's, it Can be argued that is imposter phenomenon— excuse me— a phenomenon, or was it actually just a result of bias and discrimination that was happening within the workplace against women in the 1970s?
Al ElliottSo this makes me think a little bit of— I mean, I don't know much about psychology, but I know what you've told me— Freud, where his sample survey was his children sometimes, Myers-Briggs, where their sample survey was, let's sit down and make some shit up.
Leanne ElliottYes, it was. I don't think they even had a sample.
Al ElliottThey just had a whiteboard and an idea.
Leanne ElliottWhiteboard and a dream. My God, they made it come true, didn't they?
Al ElliottThey did. But what's interesting is that our, our need to kind of label ourselves, kind of, you know, you feel, don't feel right now where people seem to want to go, oh, well, I am this, I am ADHD, I am bipolar, I'm whatever. This is a very convenient way for us to label ourselves without actually having to delve into our subconscious and all of our, um, all of our insecurities and sort of examine those in a bit more light.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think you're right. And I think that's where my kind of main area of concern around the, the huge popularity of people associating themselves as having imposter syndrome is exactly that, that we have to be really careful with the, with the, the words and, and symptoms or diagnoses we associate with. Yes, it can be empowering and it can absolutely inform form vital coping strategies. But in this case, there is a danger, I think, where what is just natural self-doubt, particularly in environments where we are outside of our comfort zone, we are pushing ourselves, or we're working in a field that's very creative or innovative, um, there is going to be that element of self-doubt unless you're a narcissist. That's a completely normal feeling to have. Um, so I think you're right, and my fear is You know about self-fulfilling prophecy. If we really internalize this to the point where we start to really believe it, then it is gonna inhibit our performance and ultimately lead to burnout.
Al ElliottSo, are we saying that actually imposter phenomenon or syndrome, whatever you wanna call it, doesn't exist and it's a lie?
Leanne ElliottIt's not so much that it's a lie, and it's not so much that it's a truth. There is a whole lot of gray in any kind of psychological term or workplace or individual phenomenon. Phenomenon or phenomena. Um, I think it's really just making sure— phenomena, is that the plural?
Al ElliottI like it. I don't care whether it is or not.
Leanne ElliottIt is the first time though, Al.
Al ElliottI like it.
Leanne ElliottSorry. Anyway, no, it's fine. Um, but I just think any term that we're going to associate with ourselves is really taking the time to understand it. And if we boil down imposter phenomenon, even if we accept that initial sample of women, what it really boils down to is that these thinking errors become part of our— we internalize them to a point where our behaviors our thoughts or feelings start to become destructive. So in terms of 82% of people think they're experiencing imposter phenomenon, I'd say probably 80% of those are just humble, nice person that are trying to, you know, not come across as too braggy or more relatable. But yeah, in terms of its truest sense, I think it does exist, but I'm not sure it's quite as prolific as we're led to believe.
Al ElliottSo let's look at the other side of it. So let's imagine that you are, say, for example, in the '70s, and you're an immigrant into Australia, UK, wherever you are, then it is correct. Based on what I hear from my parents, it is correct that there was definitely an environment which would make you feel less worthy. And I remember you mentioned someone thinking something about— was it a Talisa lady who did some stuff on this? Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think it's Still is very relevant. You know, we have moved on from the 1970s, but not sufficiently. The gender pay gap is still very real. There is still massive bias against people of color, depending on sexuality, on gender identification. It's, yeah, systemic bias and discrimination still exists. And this is a point that, yeah, Talisa Lavery, who wrote a book called Confessions from Your Token Black Colleague, and she reflects on imposter phenomenon in exactly this way, that when you're faced in an environment with a systemic bias, that lack of self-confidence is going to be a fairly normal and expected reaction.
Al ElliottOkay, so let's get some brass facts then. So let's— brass fats? I thought I said facts, but maybe I said fats. So talk us through the actual science behind the imposter phenomenon. Give us some facts.
Leanne ElliottSo I said before, if you're going to base your practice on some kind of psychology theory, dive into the actual study of it, who did it, what the sample was, where it came from, what the political and time environment was. Equally, if you are fortunate enough to, to be looking at an area of practice that has a lot of research in, and you probably should, then there's going to be things called either a meta-analysis or a systematic review. And that's when researchers will gather all the existing research and papers published to date and draw conclusions on the findings. And those findings are going to have much higher reliability and validity, or they're going to be a lot more easier to generalise without making a mistake if those conclusions are drawn from this type of review. So with that in mind, there was some researchers led by Bravatta in 2020, so recent research as well, also important. And this was actually the first systematic review of imposter syndrome, their choice of term, and it was actually published in the Journal of Mental Health and Clinical Psychology. If you want to be a super nerd about it, Also, look at the journal that it's published in, because that's going to tell you kind of the credibility and quality of the research.
Al ElliottGood tip.
Leanne ElliottBut what they found, they looked at 62 peer-reviewed studies, over 14,000 individuals with imposter syndrome published between 1966 and May 2018. And they made some interesting observations. When you hear imposter syndrome, have you seen anything, Al, that it'd be more associated with women?
Al ElliottYeah, I, yes, like anecdotally, I've not like seen a study, but yes, I've, I've, do you know what I see quite often? If I see that someone has got a women-only group, for example, on Facebook, then it appears that they'll, in the description, will say to deal with imposter syndrome. So that's where my thinking's coming from. Not that I think that women have imposter syndrome.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And I think, I think you're right. I think a lot more women may either talk about it or vocalize it or identify with it. Um, probably a combination of all 3. What they actually found in the research was that Imposter syndrome affects both men and women equally.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThe difference was actually that women described more symptoms of imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon. Um, so they felt that more aspects of their life were, were impacted by it. But in terms of, um, people who identify it, men and women identified equally. In terms of the prevalence, we said, you know, right at the top, up to 82% of the, um, of the population can be affected by this or have experienced this. This is where I always kind of, especially if I see like a data point like that in a headline, or, you know, a bit of clickbait, I'm always like, maybe, let's see. But what they actually found is that yes, up to 82% in some studies do identify with imposter syndrome, but in other studies it's as low as 9%, and that's a fairly large gap, 9 to 82%. So is it as prevalent? I guess it depends on a number of things, how it's defined. How it's measured, how it's profiled. There's lots of different variants in there. And ultimately as well, the thing to remember is that, as a researcher, if you conduct some research in imposter syndrome, particularly if you've got funding for that research, and you don't find any evidence of imposter syndrome, it's quite unlikely you're gonna publish that research.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm. So, we're gonna have this publication bias within the research as well. Another, I guess, preconception of imposter phenomenon is that it tends to affect people who are either younger or earlier stages of their career. They actually found that while there was a little bit of a decrease in terms of feelings of imposter syndrome as people got older or later in their career, it wasn't significant. So when we say— when you— if you ever hear anything that says it's not statistically significant in the science world, that means that we've done lots of fancy calculations on the data, and it's as much down to chance that we found that, that finding. So yeah, so while anecdotally there seemed to be some evidence, that wasn't found to be significant. Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination. Or Business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So tell me, are there— is there a particular type of person who it's more likely to affect?
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's gonna more than likely affect people who are highly intelligent and are high achievers.
Al ElliottI was about to say, I fit 50% of that. Maybe not 50%.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, you know, the meta-analysis found Overwhelmingly that people who experience imposter phenomenon aggressively pursue achievement as a one. And then the second one is not being able to accept the recognition when the success is achieved. So if we even think about people who aggressively pursue achievements, what was that list, Al? Sheryl Sandberg, Michelle Obama, Albert Einstein. These people are operating at a forefront of their field, um, in environments where they might be doing things for the first time. So again, it makes sense that these feelings are going to be there. The real crux of imposter phenomenon, the thing that makes it different from just kind of feeling like you're operating outside your comfort zone, is that you are unable to accept recognition when success is achieved. That is what makes kind of a lack of confidence or a bit of self-doubt different to imposter phenomenon.
Al ElliottThat's really interesting because I think that, I think that I used to externally say, oh, it's not down to me, it was down to my team when something really cool happened in business or whatever, or whatever success I had. But inside I was a bit like, yeah, yeah, it was me. It was me. So that wasn't imposter phenomenon. That was just Britishness. The British phenomenon.
Leanne ElliottYeah, just being a nice person. That's not, you know, that's not ego.
Al ElliottNot an asshole.
Leanne ElliottNot, yeah, not a dick. But ultimately knowing that you need to To— of course, you probably weren't the only person that contributed to that goal. There's going to be other people that contributed as well. But in terms of who led the charge for that, if that was down to you, then yeah, damn right, it's your success and you should celebrate it.
Al ElliottI want to talk about, or I want to ask you about the upsides of imposter phenomenon in a second. But I'm just thinking, is there an opposite to that? You know, you hear about, especially on Reddit and on TikTok recently, there's a lot of memes or videos going on around, around these where The boss will take all of the credit for the team and not even mention the team, which kinda feels like the opposite of imposter syndrome. Is— does that such a thing exist? Has it got a term?
Leanne ElliottI think, I think it is. It's narcissism.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottThat's what it really stems to, that everything is driven by you is my success. There is no— there's no negative or constructive feedback that can possibly alter my, my very high sense of worth and value and how I see myself and operate in the world. I guess it's that— I guess it's similar in the case that people with imposter phenomenon will look at a setback and incorrectly attribute that to backing up their feelings of being a fraud, whereas a narcissist is going to get a setback and probably Attribute that to somebody else.
Al ElliottI think we all know people like that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, we do.
Al ElliottSo if you do feel like you've, or you realize you now have imposter, or someone's listening and realize they now have imposter phenomenon or syndrome, then are there actually any upsides to having that?
Leanne ElliottI mean, not really, being honest. If you've got imposter phenomenon in the purest sense, this dissonance, this disconnect between, between what you think and in terms of your role and the achievements and not being able to internalize that success. Um, that is going to lead to a lot of stress and ultimately burnout. Um, so yeah, so it's, it's not, it's not a good path to be on if you are genuinely experiencing imposter phenomenon. That said, we do know, um, the same research found that people with imposter phenomenon do tend to be better at building relationships, do tend to be better at managing sensitive situations. But I'd actually put that down to probably more than likely this person is also likely to have high emotional intelligence. Um, and because they're not ego-driven and they are probably more collaborative, um, than that is, is, yeah, building relationships is going to be a part of, of their strengths. But I'm not sure that's a, a big enough pro to just accept, I have imposter phenomenon, I'll just accept it.
Al ElliottFair enough, fair enough. So if you do, or someone recognizes they've got this, then what sort of steps can they take to To overcome this or fix this?
Leanne ElliottYeah, so I think if you're a business owner and you think that imposter phenomenon is something that you're experiencing, I think the first thing to do— and I actually say this to any leader who's going through their transition or transformation within their organisation, or just a setback, a hard time— spend some time to reflect. And I know that can seem a bit indulgent when you're a busy leader and I've got lots of different things to do, but even if it's just 10 to 15 minutes a day for a week, try and reflect on those thoughts, feelings, and behaviours that you're observing as imposter phenomenon. And ask yourself, is it you? Am I— how genuine are these sorts of feelings? Or are they maybe more lack of confidence or self-doubt? Is it your environment? Are there— is it fair that you're experiencing these things because the environment that you're in is toxic, or there is bias and discrimination? It might be that it's a combination of both. I think once you've started to reflect on, on those thoughts and feelings, coaching is a really great way to dive deeper into that. Working with a coach as a leader is one of the most important things that you can do to help you reflect, to help you process what is going on in your busy life, um, and really start to make sense of those and come up with some more constructive, um, and productive coping mechanisms. In terms of if you really genuinely think you have imposter phenomenon, my advice would be to seek out what we call a cognitive behavioral coach. There are lots of different coaches out there and lots that will take very different approaches. So if this is particularly something that you're suffering with, I would recommend cognitive behavioral coaching. The reason for that is that cognitive behavioral coaching stems from Cognitive behavioural therapy. It's an extension of that to what we call kind of people who are, who are dealing with feelings of, of distress, in inverted commas, normally. It's not causing any, any acute mental health challenges. And what it's basically going to help you do is explore these thinking errors, which are definitely a part of imposter phenomenon, but may also— Phonyism, for example, this thing would be a fraud— Maybe one of many thinking areas that you're— thinking errors that you're experiencing. And depending on these combination of areas, it might indicate something else that you're struggling with mentally or cognitively. Or a cognitive coach is going to help you start to undo these ways of thinking, reframe your thinking, and again, start to come up with some, some better coping mechanisms. So yeah, that would be my advice for leaders.
Al ElliottBrilliant. And if you are looking for a coach, then we provide coaching services. We also have a network of coaches who specialize in certain things. So if you are looking for a decent coach and a good referral, then just— there'll be some contact details in the show notes. Obviously, all of it is confidential, naturally. Now you talked about this thinking error, which I've not— I don't think I've come across that, that term before. So what, what would you define as a— I mean, are there different types of thinking errors? It just One thing? What's— how does it all work?
Leanne ElliottYeah, there are many different types of thinking errors, and I guess what it is, it's almost like a little spanner in our cognitive works. Um, things aren't quite being processed in, in the way that they, they should be. As I said, that it's coming to those conclusions based on inadequate or inappropriate data. Um, and there's, there's a few— there's many different types of thinking errors. Um, one is like an all-or-nothing thinking. So things are very black and white. You know, there are good people, there are bad people. A project is either going to be a success or a failure. People will describe things as being awesome or terrible. There's no kind of middle ground. It's very extremist in that way of thinking. That's a very common thinking error. I think another one that you're probably familiar with is mind reading. So basically, when you know, you're never sure, you can never be sure what somebody else's thinking, but you will, you will draw these conclusions based on your experience of it, and typically quite extreme conclusions. Um, so for example, if you, you say something in a meeting, it doesn't quite get the response that you anticipated, you might walk out and go, they must have thought I'm an absolute idiot. How stupid am I? Did you see his face? He thought I was a loser. And that would be an example of mind reading.
Al ElliottSo, so we start off with the first 2, all-or-nothing thinking and mind reading. I can definitely— I can't, I can't, I can't relate to the first one, all-or-nothing thinking, because I've really worked hard not to train myself not to think like that. But certainly mind reading, that's so difficult not to think that, that you get off a call and you're almost always like, oh God, did I make a fool of myself? Are they laughing at me? All that kind of stuff.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAre there any other types of thinking error that you think we might sort of accidentally start thinking, doing?
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think the thing is, you know, we all experience these thinking errors. It's not to say that, that we have some cognitive dysfunction happening if we catch ourselves in this thinking error. And you made a really great point there, Al, that you do have to train your mind, and that's exactly what cognitive behavioral coaching will do. It will help you retrain your mind to think differently. But I think another one that comes up quite a lot is catastrophizing. So basically, kind of, catastrophizing, I guess it's in the name. So say, for example, I have a monthly budget for savings, and I not only miss that, but I also massively overspend, then I'm going to start freaking out because I'm going to be bankrupt by the end of the year.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottMy other possible conclusion is that I'm gonna be bankrupt by the end of the year. That's an example of catastrophizing.
Al ElliottYeah. I, when I was, I was bankrupt back in 2005, 2007, actually, I think was, was the date I went bankrupt. And so I was thinking, oh my God, I can't pay my bills, etc., etc. And then I picked up a few books. I think Mark Victor Hansen, a couple of others, Jack Canfield, worked through those. And they were really good at kind of like through the pages, teaching me things like I shouldn't say I can't afford it. Because that is automatically put in the back of my head. I haven't got money. There's other things like people, oh, they're filthy rich.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottUm, you know, and that's just, I know that's not catastrophizing, but that's sort of going, I'm associating that someone who's got money is filthy and therefore I don't want anything to do with it. Um, so I think there's all kinds of things like this. And, and I mean, the other one is like the people who are, who overgeneralize, who say things like all, um, you're like, oh, here's a perfect one. Oh, all staff are just— who work from home are on Facebook. Um, I know someone who says, who says that quite a lot. Well, no one can work from home because they'll just all be on Facebook, won't they? And I mean, this is just, as you say, it's a thinking error, but also it's kind of, it's gonna have a massive ramification on the way that you act if that becomes your belief because you're saying it, even if you're saying it, starting off saying it in a flippant way.
Leanne ElliottYeah, completely. And, and I think that is the danger, isn't it, that And I think this is where kind of the— bring it back to the imposter phenomenon. It can, it can become this flippant term that's thrown around, whereas actually— and I think in itself then kind of takes away from people that are either experiencing discrimination and bias in their workplace, or people who are genuinely, authentically struggling with imposter phenomenon. So I think we need to— I guess it's a lot of people, you know, saying, oh, I'm depressed. It's like, you might be a bit down. We're not talking clinical-level depression. I think it's a similar thing. But yeah, I mean, if you think you're experiencing these thinking errors, my advice would be just to keep a little journal, a little notebook, and if you catch yourself in a thinking error, just jot it down and maybe make a couple of notes in terms of the time of day it was, if you just come out of a stressful meeting, if little Billy is— your little kid's driving you crazy, because often environmental factors are gonna Brilliant.
Al ElliottSo do you think we're ready to talk about if someone notices imposter syndrome on a member of their team?
Leanne ElliottYes. And I think I, I know that I've kind of made a point, do you know, is it really imposter phenomenon? Is it something else? But I say that to you as a business leader. I don't say this to as an employee. If an employee came to me saying that they felt like they were imposter syndrome, felt I would say, that they were experiencing imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon, I would take that at face value, and I would accept that that is the vocabulary that they're comfortable to use to describe how they're currently thinking and feeling about work. Um, I think there's a few, um, different interventions you can take, um, as a leader if you're, if you're experiencing this in your team or getting this feedback. And I think the first one is to look at some kind of psychometric, and specifically a 360 psychometric. So we talked a lot about this on a previous episode, um, Myers-Briggs, brilliant or bullshit. Um, it's a good one. Um, we talked a lot about psychometrics and how to scrutinize the, the quality of them, so I won't go into too much detail. But if we just take example, um, Clifford Strengths. So a lot of my clients will talk about doing strengths, some kind of strengths profiling within their team if they're experiencing, um, imposter phenomenon or Or think they are. Because sure, you know, if we do a psychometric that's going to call out our strengths, then that's going to give us confidence in what we're good at. The difficulty is with a lot of strengths profiles is their self-report. So self-report is when I answer questions about myself based on my perceptions of my strengths. And the tricky thing with that is that one, people aren't always necessarily very accurate at identifying their own strengths. Um, and 2, if I am genuinely experiencing imposter phenomenon, I'm probably not going to be in a space where I can really talk about my strengths comfortably and honestly. So to flip that, a 360 is going to assess, um, a person's strengths, um, from multiple viewpoints. So yes, I will answer questions about my perception of my, my strengths. I'll also ask my line manager. To complete the same questions. I'll ask my colleague, my peer, to complete those questions. I might ask a customer or one of my direct reports. And then we bring all of those, all that data together, we'll have a much fuller picture of not only what I believe my strengths are, but what the people around me in my work environment think. And 99% of the time, there is always a gap between what people think they're good at, what they're actually good at, what they think they're rubbish at, what they're actually their peers and colleagues think they're brilliant at. I think this kind of honest data and fuller picture is going to enable much more easily the conversations that's going to steer somebody through feelings of imposter phenomenon. Ultimately, if you do have that data, again, the ethical and right thing to do to have the most impact is to make sure that that person has access to coaching, whether it be just a follow-up feedback session to help digest the results, Or ideally at least kind of 3 to 5 sessions to put in some, put in place some, some great coping mechanisms.
Al ElliottI love it. I love it. And I think the coaches, having a coach these days is just seems a lot more, you know, okay than it was maybe 10, 15 years ago. So I think it's brilliant because you talk to a lot of people who've got coaches and then coaches have got coaches. And, you know, when you, when you, when you get into it, they're probably the very successful people have got coaches, several different coaches who do several different things. So I really like now that coaching is a totally acceptable thing to do. So is there anything else that you think that you could, you could do to help someone on your team who's feeling this, this imposter syndrome?
Leanne ElliottI think there are a couple of things. I think the thing with doing a 360 and then follow-up coaching, it is an expensive intervention. I'd imagine you will be looking at least probably kind of £600 to £1,000 per employee to kind of go through that. Um, that kind of tool and then have kind of 3 to 4 coaching sessions as follow-up. So, it is an expensive solution. You can run a similar or a more informal 360 yourself, um, you know, by asking people to write down their strengths. And I think you actually have done this exercise, Al, where you then ask other people to email you what they believe your strengths are.
Al ElliottI have, yeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so you can do it much more, much more informally. Um, I think it's important to, to understand kind of the, um, the environment you're operating in and kind of how relationships are between your team at the moment, because if you are just asking for kind of a, a blanket, no guidance view of, of kind of that kind of feedback, um, then it might open a can of worms that you can't get the lid back on. Um, whereas using a structured psychometric is going to have standardized questions that, that will, will guide ultimately a much more positive and constructive outcome. Um, so yeah, it's something you can do, but with a warning, I only do it if you're really confident how your team I think the final thing is actually really ask yourself, um, as a leader, um, is it me? Am I creating an environment where there might be bias, there might be bullying, there might be discrimination, where these feelings of imposter syndrome are actually just, just feelings of, of a lack of confidence and self-doubt based on the environment that somebody is, is currently operating in? That's a really hard answer, uh, question to answer.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottyourself, things that you could do, something like an engagement survey or a wellbeing survey, is going to identify any pockets of toxicity or discrimination that could be a source of this. Or if you think it is perhaps, or maybe more confident that there is an issue with discrimination or bias in your workplace, conducting some kind of diversity and inclusion audit is a really great way to go.
Al ElliottFantastic. So any closing thoughts for someone who's listened to this this far and thinks, yep, I've either got it, I feel like I might have it myself, or I know one or two people on my team who've got any other thoughts.
Leanne ElliottMy final thoughts is that it is something that can be managed, it can be dealt with, um, but something that if it isn't— like anything in the workplace, if we pretend it doesn't, it isn't there, it's going to get bigger and bigger and ultimately start to impact well-being, performance, um, and, and yeah, all, all of the things you don't want it to affect. Um, so I'd say nip it in the bud, take it seriously, um, and yeah, get, get Brilliant.
Al ElliottI'm pretty sure you've put together a few resources that people can, can link, we can link to down below in the show notes. I think, did you say you're also linking to Dr. Audrey Tang's book?
Leanne ElliottYes, there's a good book from Dr. Audrey Tang, The Leader's Guide to Resilience. There's a few exercises in there that touch on imposter phenomenon, but it really is more about building your own self-confidence and belief and resilience As a leader. So yeah, we'll do that. And then, then yeah, we'll put some other links in there either to 360s. But to be honest, any good, big, credible test publisher is going to have that. Real World Group, for example. Hogan has a really good 360. But we will link them, link them below, along with some articles that we've come across that just talk a bit about imposter syndrome, imposter phenomenon, the dos, don'ts, ups and downs, truth and lies.
Al ElliottBrilliant. Okay, so I think we'll call that a day for today. As ever, if you've got, if you've got a question about wellbeing, engagement, anything we've talked about today, and you want to talk to an expert in this, then you need to email us. Just email leanne@oblonghq.com. And one of us will set up an appointment for you and you can chat for 15 minutes, or you can set up a proper hour or so in a session that we can organize some kind of Um, anything else you want to add before we call it a day?
Leanne ElliottNo, I think we're good.
Al ElliottBrilliant. All right, we'll talk to you soon. See you next week. Bye-bye.