Episode 111 · 2 July 2024 · 46:27
111: The 6 day workweek, Multitasking Myths & withholding donuts from contractors..? This Week in Work 2nd July 2024
111: The 6 day workweek, Multitasking Myths & withholding donuts from contractors..? This Week in Work 2nd July 2024
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The multitasking myth
news roundup#multitasking#productivity#focus
Greece's six-day working week
news roundup#greece#six-day-work-week#work-week#labor-laws
Quiet quitting in the UK
news roundup#quiet-quitting#uk#workplace-trends
Truth or Lie: Can body language reveal a liar?
truth or lie#body-language#lying#deception#nonverbal-communication
Workplace Surgery: Freelancer exclusion
workplace surgery#freelancers#exclusion#workplace-issues
Workplace Surgery: Retaining key employees
workplace surgery#employee-retention#key-employees#talent-management
Workplace Surgery: Encouraging honest feedback
workplace surgery#feedback#honest-feedback#workplace-culture
Show notes
The 6-Day Workweek, Multitasking Myths & Withholding Donuts from Contractors — This Week in Work
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down why multitasking is a myth, whether Greece's six-day workweek can save its economy, and the staggering £257 billion cost of quiet quitting in the UK. Plus, in Truth or Lie: can you really spot a liar from their body language?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Why multitasking is a myth The Telegraph reports that multitasking actually slows us down, increases stress, and decreases productivity. The research points to monotasking — doing one thing really, really well — as the far more effective approach. Al and Leanne unpack why we keep falling for the multitasking trap and how to break the habit. Source →
2. Greece's six-day working week The Greek government has introduced a six-day working week to tackle population decline and labour shortages, offering a 40% pay boost for the extra day. But unions and workers argue it undermines workers' rights and could lead to exploitation. Greeks already work the longest hours in Europe at around 41 hours a week — yet productivity remains low. Al and Leanne are unconvinced. Source →
3. Quiet quitting is costing the UK £257 billion Gallup's latest State of the Workplace report reveals a rise in quiet quitting across the UK, driven by burnout, toxic management, and a lack of meaningful work. That disengagement is costing the UK economy a staggering £257 billion annually — about 11% of GDP. Leanne shares what the data says about why workers are tuning out and what leaders can actually do about it. Source →
🧠 Truth or Lie: Can You Spot a Liar from Their Body Language?
Leanne puts the popular belief that micro-expressions reveal deception to the test, with insights from Dr. Ryne Sherman, Chief Science Officer at Hogan Assessments. While pop culture — including Al's guilty pleasure Lie to Me — exaggerates these methods, there are subtle cues that can be indicative of deception. But the truth might surprise you.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Freelancer exclusion: "I work as a freelancer at a company, but my manager withholds donuts from me because I'm not a 'real employee.' How do I handle this?"
- Employee retention: "I run a small business and I'm losing key employees because I can't offer career progression. What can I do?"
- Honest feedback: "My team is hesitant to give honest feedback. How do I create a culture where people feel safe to share?"
(Got a question? Email us at hi@truthliesandwork.com or submit via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottYep. Hope you're having a good week so far. Um, we had a lovely weekend. Leanne was away, so I had a great weekend without Leanne. But you had a lovely weekend in, um, Montenegro.
Leanne ElliottI did. I had a weekend in Budva, Montenegro with my best girlfriends. It was fabulous. I feel rested. I feel Like I want to go back. Happy to be here, don't get me wrong, but possibly when I was there, I was happier. You know what I mean?
Al ElliottYeah, it doesn't really reflect too well on your husband there, does it?
Leanne ElliottBut anyway, I am rested and recovered, and I'm glad to be back with you, Al.
Al ElliottIf you've, um, if you've never been to, uh, any of the Balkan countries, then you need to, you need to go. We live in Bosnia. It's beautiful. But if you like coastline and you don't like Croatian prices, then go to Montenegro. It's about half the price.
Leanne ElliottTrue that.
Al ElliottYou will like it. Anyway, so today is the Tuesday episode. Thursday episode, it's all about guest interviews. Tuesday is just you, listener, you and us having a little chat about work. Today we have the news roundup. We bring you the very best stories we've seen in the week around work and workplace culture. And then we have a surprise summer segment. Leah, are you going to tell us now?
Leanne ElliottYes, this week Truth or Lie is back. So Truth or Lie is where we dig into popular psychological trends, or beliefs and find out if they are actually true. So this week we'll be answering Al's question, uh, can body language or microexpressions tell us when somebody is lying? Um, and we'll be answering that with a little help from the Chief Science Officer at Hogan Assessments, Dr. Ryan Sherman.
Al ElliottAnd finally, after the break, we have the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne, who is a business psychologist, if you didn't pick that up already.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you're not sure what that is, go back to last Thursday's episode. We explain it all.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. So is it time for your favourite time of the week, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYes, cue the jingle!
Al ElliottWhat have you got, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottUm, sorry, I didn't say it's time for the news roundup, but we've got that, right? We know what we're doing now.
Al ElliottYes, the news roundup. Yeah, you can tell by the jingle.
Leanne ElliottI saw an interesting article this week on The Telegraph website. I'm very cultured. Um, about multitasking. I know we talk about multitasking quite a bit, Al, don't we? Because both of us are generally pretty bad at it. Um, but it's one of those things, you know, that sounds like multitasking might be better for productivity. Um, it might be that you get more during the day. Well, it turns out that it's not as effective as we might think. So most of us do take pride, um, in our ability, or lack of, to juggle multiple tasks at once, whether it be cooking, emailing, chatting on the phone. There's a whole host of things. I think I, I'm a bit overambitious with what I can also do while I'm brushing my teeth. Um, turns out not a lot.
Al ElliottLet's not go into that. Thanks for sharing there, Leanne. No worries.
Leanne ElliottAnd of course, there's a cultural expectation as well. You know, there's always that, that people saying, oh, aren't they amazing? They get so much done. Look at her juggling everything. I'm sure women out there will, particularly with children, um, will, will roll an eye at that one. Um, but yeah, it can be seen as a superpower. But the thing is, the most recent research suggests that we're not actually really any good at multitasking, or indeed we're not multitasking at all, instead of just switching rapidly between tasks, um, and that can slow us down. So Dr. Roz Halari, a neuropsychologist, points out that multitasking can decrease our productivity and make us prone to errors because our brain processes information slower and less accurately when we're trying to do too many things at once. So this isn't just about slipping up in your daily chores. It could mean missing crucial details or even facing serious risks like accidents. But what really happens in our brain when we're trying to multitask is actually chemicals. So multitasking increases stress levels, shown by a rise in cortisol, um, our stress hormone. And also our attention spans take a hit too, uh, make us much more, um, distractible. And over time, it can even— research has shown it can even change our brain structure, reducing the density of the gray matter in areas responsible for cognitive cognitive control. If you're wondering why there's so much more talk at the minute about neuroscience and what happens in our brain, it's because we now have the technology to actually scan the brain and do lots of cool tests with it, and that's fairly recent, the last decade or so. So, we're starting to see stuff come out. Another expert called Dr. Addyisi suggests that we should actually focus on monotasking, which is just doing one thing at a time. This approach not only may help us to complete tasks more efficiently, but also makes us happier and less stressed. stressed, basically giving our full attention to one thing. So yes, food for thought next time you are answering emails during your lunch break or texting while walking the dog. Um, just remember, doing less could actually help you do more. I like the sound of that.
Al ElliottYeah, don't try and do 2 things at once. Just do one. Monotasking— do one thing really, really well. And there's also the switching cost, which we've talked about before as well, um, which if you are writing an email and then you see a text from your phone, you look down and you reply to it, There's a cost to switching to that and switching back to your email, which will become evident over time. So, monotasking is the future.
Leanne ElliottMaybe. What have you seen this week, Al?
Al ElliottWell, some news from Greece in The Guardian this week. The Guardian's a UK newspaper. I don't particularly follow it for its political views, but I have to be honest, it is some of the best writing and the best articles out there. And this is where the government of Greece have just announced a big change in the working week. Lots of countries are experimenting with shorter working weeks. And in fact, we've had lots of experts on here talking about the 4-day workweek, including Joe O'Connor, who is the founder of it. Just skip back to about the sort of 40s, somewhere around there for the episodes, and you'll see Joe's episode. But Greece is going the other way by introducing a 6-day working week, bumping the total up to 48 hours. Prime Minister— this is going to be fun—
Leanne ElliottPrime Minister Kyriakos You can do it. I've got you. You can do it. I believe in you.
Al ElliottPrime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis.
Leanne ElliottOne more time. Go on.
Al ElliottPrime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis says this move is necessary because of Greece's shrinking population and a shortage of skilled workers. I'm not sure I'm following this logic here. He believes by having the option to work an extra day or put in a few more hours each day, it'll give you a nice 40% pay boost for those extra hours. So, um, I'm not sure the maths works on that, but then let's be honest, Greece has never been great with working out maths when it comes to money. They almost went bankrupt 10 years ago. Anyway, so this, he hopes that this will bring Greece back in line with other European countries in terms of what people are earning. But not everyone is on board with this idea. Unsurprisingly, unions, workers, lots of people are up in arms calling the new measure barbaric and arguing it will roll back longstanding workers' rights. They're concerned that without proper oversight, employers will start demanding these extra hours, effectively ending the traditional 5-day workweek. That makes sense because if it's now in law that you can get people to work 6 days a week, well, why, why wouldn't you if you were one of those bad bosses? So despite the assurance from the government, this new rule is worker-friendly and growth-orientated. Very few people are convinced. They point out better productivity comes from better working conditions, better quality of life, not more hours at work. And we know this. We know this, listener, don't we?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottTo put it into context, Greeks already work the longest hours in Europe, about 41 hours a week, yet they get paid significantly less. The opposition argues that this could worsen the brain drain and be particularly unfair to young Greeks who are struggling to find jobs. They would— you'll find a lot from southern, southern Europe, a lot of people tend to go to Germany because that's where they think the best places are, the best jobs are. But unfortunately, also, it's quite a bit more expensive than Greece. So, not sure there's a net gain there. So while the government pushes for more workdays to tackle economic issues, many are left wondering if this really is the best way forward. I am unconvinced. Leanne, what do you think?
Leanne ElliottI too am unconvinced, Al. Do you know what, it just— again, is it not just putting it on an individual to solve a systemic problem?
Al ElliottOh yeah, nice.
Leanne ElliottYou know, people working an extra day a week is not gonna suddenly fix the, the GDP or however economics work, and you know what I mean? Like, it's not going to bring us any new opportunities or new business or stimulate Growth. If you're— just because people are working, um, 6 days a week, it, it probably means if people are earning more, they're paying more taxes.
Al ElliottI was just gonna say that. So this is, this is probably the root of it, is actually they want more people to work so they can collect more income tax.
Leanne ElliottUm, I can't imagine the Prime Minister will be in power very long with ideas like that, Al.
Al ElliottWell, I don't know, if he's working an extra day a week, then perhaps he's got more time to get things done. I don't know. Leanne, what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottWell, the other thing I saw this week, Gallup have released their latest State of the Workplace report. They do it every year, came out a couple of weeks ago. Makes for some pretty grim reading, not gonna lie. Um, and also a resurgence of a term we first reported on all the way back in 2022 in one of our very first episodes, actually— quiet quitting. So the latest Gallup report shows that a significant number of UK workers are quiet quitting, which means just doing just doing what you're contracted to do in your job, um, which you may also know as being, uh, employees being disengaged. So according to new data, the top 3 reasons driving this trend is burnout, toxic management, and a lack of meaningful work. So Professor Tina Kiefer from Warwick Business School has delved deep into these factors. She's found that not only are these workers disengaged, but their lack of motivation is estimated to cost the UK economy— are you ready for this, Al?
Al ElliottGo on.
Leanne Elliott£257 billion annually. That's about 11% of GDP. Um, so why exactly are workers tuning out? Well, Professor Kiefer highlights 2 overarching themes. Firstly, many employees feel their work isn't contributing to anything significant. They're missing a sense of purpose. They don't have a reason to go to work beyond paying the bills. And secondly, many are just overwhelmed by the negative workplace environments that drain their energy to the point that even if they wanted to engage more, they simply can't. Um, the report also references a concept of quiet firing, which we've seen gain traction over the past few months. Um, that's where management practices push employees towards an exit, um, by subtly suggesting that they're probably better off elsewhere. So yeah, and I guess it's one of those things, isn't it? I think the, the state of of mental health in UK has been, has been pretty poor for a while. Um, the pandemic didn't do much to help with that. And of course, the rise in remote work we've seen since the pandemic, you know, many people's sense of belonging has shifted away from the traditional office setting, um, and isn't quite translating to the digital world simply because, um, the managers don't have the capabilities. Um, so yeah, I'm also very sad making statistic that Professor Kiefer points out, workers in the UK now rank 33rd out of 38 in European countries for employee engagement. If you want to be ahead of your competitors, make the next 12 months the year to invest in employee engagement, um, because it's really not as difficult or as mystical as it might seem or sound. There are very basic things you can provide your employees that are going to help them feel this sense of of meaning and belonging. Um, it really isn't anything that you need to even throw that much money at. And of course, if you do one thing, train your managers. So what is the solution that Professor Kiefer suggests? Well, she suggests that companies, again, as I said, need to go beyond surface-level perks and really invest in enhancing their employees' work life. I mean, it's not a new news story, Al, but it seems to be a Yeah, I think that stat of being 33rd out of 38 countries is kind of, kind of shocking, really.
Al ElliottUm, you'd think on paper the UK would be the best place to work because, you know, there's, there's, there's great, usually great companies, there's innovation, you've got Uber Eats, you've got Amazon can deliver anything within an hour, all that kind of thing. Just goes to show that actually the core The core necessities of a decent workplace is, like you said before, the reason why are you doing what you're doing? Are you in the right role? I'm going through the RX7. If you are looking to invest in— this was— this is— there we go, shameless plug. If you are looking to invest in engagement and recruitment over the next 12 months, like Leanne suggests, then there is something called the RX7 Method, which we do with select private clients at the moment, but we are opening it up. So if you're interested in that, check the show notes, you can get in touch and we'll talk about it there.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBasically, it's 7 foundations of an amazing workplace culture, all beginning with R, hence RX7, R times 7. Anyway, Lee, anything else to add to that, do you think, before we go into our surprise segment?
Leanne ElliottDo you know what? Again, I think it's that it's, it's something we're seeing that's not getting better. And in fact, the first big government-commissioned report into employee engagement or quiet quitting was back in 2008. So we're kind of like 15 years on now. And it's just getting worse and worse. And I kind of think it's because there's too many surface-level intervention things going on, much like the, you know, Greek idea of getting people to work 6 days a week to boost the economy. Um, I kind of like it. Do you remember when we proper, like, crashed and burned in the Olympics?
Al ElliottOh, right.
Leanne ElliottWas it like 20— 2004, maybe?
Al ElliottPerhaps.
Leanne ElliottReally bad. Or maybe it's even 2000. And the UK government decided to invest in grassroots sports, like youth teams and inclusion and diversifying, you know, the types of activities kids could do in schools and the funding that different sports clubs got. And by 2012, we were in like, was it the top 5 medal winners in the world? And we've got a population that's teeny tiny compared to some countries. So I think it just emphasises that We can create systemic change, and we can over a period of time. And it's not a quick fix. We are probably looking at five to ten years to truly change the experience of that people are having at work in the UK overall to be more positive. But it requires a systemic change, and I understand that businesses need that support from potentially the government as well. Employees need that from business leaders. I just think it's time now. You know, it's just getting progressively worse, and. My fear is that this trend will actually just become part of what working life is. Quiet quitting is just an aspect of work that we need to live with, and that's miserable-making for business leaders and for employees. So I guess I'm just worried that's gonna be normalised to the point that it's just expected from all parties.
Al ElliottNot if you have anything to do with it, Lee. And if you listen to this podcast, you're probably already on the road to having an amazing workplace culture. But just a quick tip, if you can create products and services that your customers love, then you can create cultures that your employees will love. The principles are very, very, very similar. If you are interested, check the show notes. You can book a call with Leanne and she will talk you all through it. Lee, talking of Leanne, you have our, what I've called the Surprise Summer Segment because I never know about it until the day we're actually recording.
Leanne ElliottSSS.
Al ElliottI put the Al in alliteration. What's, what's the, what's the segment, Lee?
Leanne ElliottToday's Surprise Summer The second segment isn't that much of a surprise because we did it last week. It's called Truth or Lie, Bang on Brand. So what we're going to do is we're going to take psychology that's popular, pop psychology you might call it, things you've heard of, trends, general beliefs about how we function as humans, like for example, 16 Personalities, Myers-Briggs. Is it actually proper psychology or is it just pop nonsense? I think you know the answer to that one.
Al ElliottWhat?
Leanne ElliottBut do you know the answer to Al's question? So Al absolutely loves a show called Lie to Me where a character uses microexpressions to determine if somebody is lying. Personally, I, I just can't because I, I can't. I'm sure it's like a doctor watching like Casualty or something or Grey's Anatomy. But Al, you flipping love this show, don't you?
Al ElliottWell, you've built— I don't love it, it's my guilty pleasure. Um, I, I, I— it's silly. It's silly and I don't see it. When I first started watching it, maybe years and years ago when it first came out, I was like, oh, this is cool. But obviously you pointed out that it's all a bit bullshit. But the first one, for example, the first episode, it used microexpressions to uncover a bomb plot by the KKK.
Leanne ElliottNice.
Al ElliottYeah, it was. Yeah, it's not exactly science.
Leanne ElliottNo judgment. We all have our quirks. We all have our quirks.
Al ElliottVampires.
Leanne ElliottExactly. But yeah, I'm, I mean, I am deeply sceptical about body language and microexpressions. I'm not the only psychologist that thinks that, but I thought, you know, just to make sure, I should probably ask one of the world's experts on behavioral science, and that is Dr. Ryan Sherman, the Chief Science Officer at Hogan Assessments. And here's what he had to say about the TV show Lie to Me.
Al ElliottSo Paul Ekman, who's a really well-known psychologist, was a consultant for the show to talk about some of these. And he's probably studied sort of nonverbal, like these kinds of behaviors more than anybody in the world, right? That there's a tremendous amount. He's sort of known for faces. The work that he's done on faces, the idea that there are only so many different emotions expressed by face. Like there's happy, there's sad, there's— and that these emotions tend to be recognized globally. Now, there's been some sort of controversy about that in recent years about, well, maybe there's more emotions and maybe they're not as global as we think and all this kind of stuff. But for the most part, many people can recognize when somebody's happy or when somebody's angry or when somebody's sad just by their facial expression. And so from that part of it is that I think that that's all true psychology. And in terms of the Yeah. There's actually quite a bit of research on lie detection and detecting deception from a whole bunch of things. There's some really classic studies where they took like FBI investigators and they took regular police officers and they just took like normal ordinary citizens and they had them all like watch video clips of people who were either lying or not. And in this case, they set it up so that half of the time they were seeing a lie, half of the time they And what they found out was that the federal investigators were much better at catching liars who were lying. And the reason they were better at it is because they assumed everyone was lying. So they weren't better at— right? So they also were calling people liars who weren't lying too. So they actually weren't more accurate, right? But they're better at catching liars. So if you just say everybody's lying, then you're going to catch all the liars. But of course, you're going to accuse a lot of people of lying who aren't. So it turns out that, at least in that sort of sense, like, that there's no— doesn't seem to be any sort of trained skill, at least at that level, in detecting lies in that regard. The point is that you can detect lying and you detect deception in sort of ways by using information much better than you can by these sort of nonverbal kinds of things. All of that being said, I will say, and I'm not 100% sure how this works, but there is this, this group of, you know, mentalists, right? Quote unquote mentalists. And a lot of it are sort of, you know, parlor tricks, card tricks, things like that. But I suspect that there is actually something very subtle. There's these classic mentalism tricks where people have like a coin in one hand or the other, and My understanding is that some of the ways that they work is that people sort of give away through their nonverbals which hand the coin is in. They're actually giving it away in some nonverbal way. They just tilt their eyes just slightly one way, or there's just something they do. There are cognitive psychology kinds of tricks. The classic one is pink elephants.
Leanne ElliottRight?
Al ElliottIf I say, And don't think about pink elephants. Whatever you do for the next minute and a half, I don't want you to think about pink elephants at all. Don't, don't, don't think about them in any way. Um, what happens is when we try to put something out of our mind, it comes into our mind. And so sometimes these mentalists can use tricks like that, right? They can tell you, you know, don't think about your security PIN number. And what's the first— you know, that's all you think about, right? And so then they can say things like, now I don't want you to think about the first number. So I don't want you to think about 0 or 1 or 2 or 3. And then, and something might, you might do something nonverbally while they're going through those numbers. And if they're really good and they're really practiced, they might be able to pick that up and you can sort of give it away, even though you're trying actively to not give it away. So there is some psychology there. I think a lot of what's on that TV show is definitely pop, right? The sort of, oh, your eyes look that way, your eyebrows did this, or Well, there you go, Al.
Leanne ElliottI'm afraid it is a lie. I love what Dr. Ryan said there about how certain trained professionals seem to be better just because they assume that everyone's lying.
Al ElliottYep, that makes perfect sense. You can find out more about how Hogan Assessments can help with your recruitment at hoganassessments.com, and you can listen to more of Ryan on his podcast Science of Personality. Just search for it in the— wherever you get your podcasts. After the break, we have the world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I have a bit of a scandalous one to kick off with. See you after the break.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agents To create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work, and we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such. It's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioral science in your marketing, but there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoy. enjoyed. Can balsamic vinegar make beer taste better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back. I'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in. Welcome back onto my favourite time of the week, the world-famous weekly workplace surgery, where I put your Questions to business psychologist Leanne. Leah, are you ready?
Leanne ElliottYes, I have been on holiday though, just to, just to bear in mind it's my first day back, so I might not have my old business psychology at full, you know, full throttle yet. But yeah, crack on.
Al ElliottYeah, you and your, you and your 4 girlfriends. One thing I do know is that Montenegro has significantly less Aperol than they did 4 days ago.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottYes. So here we go, here's the question. I work as a freelancer at a company But to be honest, it's my main gig really. I do 25 to 30 hours a week and I get on really well with the guys I work for. I've been working there for about a year and I thought I was part of the crew until last week. The big boss came in with a big basket of pastries, like muffins, donuts, etc., for the team, and he went round the entire office and handed them out. But when he got to me, he said, sorry, you don't properly work here, so none for you. At first I thought he was joking, but he just walked off and continued handing out donuts. Told you it was scandalous. I'm really trying hard, but this is what I like about this person who's written in. This is what I really like about this. I'm trying really hard to be grown up and see both sides of this, but it's hard not to be upset about this exclusion. Surely it can't be about the money. A donut's a couple of dollars. So why do you think he's excluding me like this?
Leanne ElliottI mean, I think the thing is, is this person is clearly trying to make some kind of point about separating you from the rest of rest of the team. I'm not sure why. There are various things that could be motivating that. Maybe he's irritated paying a freelancer a higher hourly rate, although actually overall he's probably paying less in terms of other benefits and perks and whatnot. Um, it could be that he didn't want to hire a freelancer and he got overruled in some way. Um, I don't know, maybe he's trying to create distance because the company is about to go into a different direction and, and bring roles in-house, and that might not include you. Um, I don't really know, but it's very odd. It's very petty. Um, and I think this is where it's really— and I feel for you because it's a really fine line as a freelancer. And I too have worked as a freelancer, um, or kind of a long-term consultant for, for companies. And you can get attached, and you do start to feel like you're part of the team. And, and it really just depends how that operates. I've done it in some organizations where, as a contractor, I feel very much a part of the team, and that's not made any It's just been kind of how my pay is structured or how my employment is structured. Other organisations where it has been a bit more of a barrier. I think it's one of those where it kind of comes with the territory as a freelancer, because as much as you might get comments like that, and it's very odd and unnecessary, but equally, you're not part of that organisation in the same way that other employees are. It's a very rude and brutal way to demonstrate that.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut you're not. So I guess it's maybe a point of reflection in that if this is a regular gig for you, if you enjoy the work, you enjoy working with the rest of your colleagues, how do the rest of your colleagues make you feel? If they make you feel included and it's just kind of this one person that doesn't, then how much is that really going to impact your, your day-to-day life? And, and I guess a bigger question to reflect on is, as a freelancer, is this something you can get used to and get on board with and start to just accept as part of, part of the deal. You get the extra flexibility. That does mean that— You don't get a donut. Yeah, you don't get a donut, and you don't necessarily get that full sense of belonging. That's kind of the trade-off, isn't it? Um, so yeah, I guess that's my only advice, is kind of like, that's very weird, it's very odd, it's completely unnecessary. Maybe that person has their own motivations as to what that could be. You'll tie yourself not trying to figure out what that motivation is or what the reason is. I would use it more as an opportunity to, to reflect back on, on you and your experience and how you want to manage your career. Because if you stay in freelance, um, or indeed consultancy, this probably isn't going to be the only instance of this you're going to experience. So it's how you deal with that and how you manage that yourself. Maybe it's time to go back in-house. Maybe it's time to to just reflect on, on kind of your role and how integrated you get yourself. Maybe there are a few more personal barriers to put up, um, to help you stop getting so attached. That's what I'd say. It sounds very strange. Yeah.
Al ElliottAnd while you was— while you were saying that, I was thinking there's 2 things I thought about. First of all is that there's a very good chance that everyone else, the rest of your— I'm gonna say colleagues because you work in the same office— will have noticed this. And maybe that was the intention, they noticed it, or maybe Maybe not, I don't know, but they will have noticed it. So if they— if you've got a really good relationship with them, there's a very good chance that they're going to stand behind you and go, yeah, he was a bit of an asshole, wasn't he? Why'd he do that? Don't get it. And that's probably done more damage to the big boss than it actually has done to you. The kind of the opposite to that I'm thinking about is potentially— and I wish, I wish we could actually have a 2-way conversation because I'd love to ask— are you getting a bit too attached? Are you maybe pretending that you're part of the team when in actual fact you're just a contractor? And this was his way of going, hey, step back, Janet. You know, you're not part of this team because perhaps you've just been a little bit, I don't know, overenthusiastic in the way that you've, um, that you, you're part of the team.
Leanne ElliottMaybe. It sounds like, as I said, there's clearly some kind of boundary this person is trying to set, isn't there? This, this boss dude. Um, not, not in the nicest way, but, but as I said, you can tie yourself in knots trying to figure out what that is if he's not going to be transparent. You could ask him, um, but again, it's kind of to what end that's, that's gonna kind of come to. I think it's probably worth spending— rather than spending your time obsessing over him, reflect that back and obsess over you and what, you know, what you want out of it in, in terms of freelance or indeed this company. Um, and then maybe once you've figured that out And you don't, you know, you know what you want to do, then maybe go and ask that question. Ask him why, why he did that. Um, very strange. Equally, if you want to be as passive-aggressive, take in donuts next time he's in the office and don't give him one.
Al ElliottBut I mean, the positive you can take— before we go on to the next question, just thinking— the positive you can take out of this is that at least you kind of know what he thinks of you and where you stand. There is so many— I've not worked in offices for years and years and years, but There's so many bitchy comments and little stuff bubbling under the surface that you don't know. And then suddenly you find out that Arnold doesn't like you, and that's why your hours are so weird, you know. So at least you know where you stand. So at least you can do something about it. Are you ready for the next question, Lee?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottSo this one's a little— I can totally relate to this one. It's a bit heartbreaking. He says, I run a small business that I've nurtured and grown with care over the years. Recently, I faced a troubling trend, several key employees have left, all citing a lack of career progression as their reason for moving on. This has left me disheartened but also concerned about the future stability of my team. Here's where the challenge lies. As a small business owner, I'm acutely aware that I can't offer the same career progression opportunities that larger companies can. My resources are limited, and being real frank, I don't have the energy or the drive to scale the business significantly to create these kind of positions. I've always prided myself on creating a supportive and family-like work environment. Red flag. But also, it seems like this is not enough for my current team. Given my constraints, I'm at a loss for how to keep my remaining key people engaged and satisfied, but without giving them the career progression they seem to be asking for. Lee, any thoughts?
Leanne ElliottDid this person mention kind of the average tenure of these people before they left due to— no?
Al ElliottNo, but reading between the lines, it suggests that they are— they're not just someone who's been there a year.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it sounds like there's a bit of— yeah, there's a bit of emotion in this, isn't there, to suggest that they've— um, quite simply, there's not a lot you can do, to be honest. Um, and I think it's recognizing that You're right, Al. Family, red flag. These people aren't your kids. These people aren't your brothers and sisters or your aunties and uncles or whoever they might want to be in this fantasy family situation. Um, they're adults that you employ to do a job. And if you organize your, um, your business well, and if you invest in your own development as a leader and manager well, then you will create a sense of, um, of belonging, as we've been talking about. And that's going to help with employee engagement. But that's just one aspect of what people want from work, and it's kind of a swing both ways. And we can't go— we don't want the world to go all the way, oh, it's all about engagement. It's like we were talking about the hero tax last week, you know. We don't want to go to that point where people aren't getting the fair pay and benefits they deserve for the work they do, or indeed having that career progression. That career progression is also a key aspect of employee engagement. If you really can't provide that in your business and you're not in a position where you want to, fair enough, that is within your right as a business owner. If you don't want to scale your business to create these opportunities, um, then this is just a cycle you're going to go through. I think it's maybe looking at it, flipping it in a different way. You know, what, what opportunities can you provide for these people over the 3 to maybe 5 years they're with you, to then you feel a sense of pride setting them off back into the world to go and smash it somewhere else? Um, I think it's shifting your expectations, because if you can't pay people more, if you can't give them the opportunities, there's a limited time you're going to be able to engage them in that job. And more to the point, you don't want to engage them beyond that point, because they start to get bored, then they'll start to disengage, and they'll start to quiet quit, and your productivity will drop, and your profitability will drop, and your customer satisfaction will drop. You kind of want people to move on before they become disengaged. So, I think it's really more about managing the time that people are with you, shifting your expectations in terms of how long people will be with you and what they can contribute during that time. And then really just looking at having a really great recruitment process in place, potentially where you're bringing people on without as much experience and you're training them up, and that's a good way to keep people with you longer. I think that's the thing. I mean, the other thing that you can do, depending on If you're just finding— again, I guess it's similar to the question, the last, um, question— if you're finding this really hard to deal with, if you're getting attached to your employees, is maybe look at contractors. If you don't want to scale your business, if you just want the job to get done, um, you can still, as we've heard, you know, create great relationships with contractors and feel very much an organization. But it gives you—
Al ElliottBring them donuts though.
Leanne ElliottBring them donuts, yeah. Um, but it gives you that flexibility and potentially that kind of, that boundary and that from getting too attached. So, when they do leave in that 3 years' time, it's not as personal. It sounds like you're making this a very personal situation. Actually, objectively, these people, it sounds like they're thriving in your organisation. They're contributing a lot. They're getting a lot out of it. And when the time is right, they're moving on to the next stage of their career. That's just how it works. And also, there's very few organisations, no matter how big they are, and how many, um, you know, career pathways they have. There's still very few organizations that will hang on to people for more than 5 years anyway, um, because people want that different experience, different industries, different teams. Um, it's just the way it is. Is that harsh? Sorry, just knocked my mic.
Al ElliottNo, I think that's, I think that's fair. The key things you said there was one which I was thinking of already, and you said it, which I was really pleased about. But the first thing you said, that he's taking it personally, or she's taking it personally, or they're taking it personally. Um, that's come through, just through it. Every— almost every word is like, this is personal, this is emotional, this is, you know, this is not a business. So I would probably do what Leanne said. My marketing brain is saying switch it on its head. Don't become that person who's so frightened that you're gonna lose people in 3 to 5 years to a bigger company. Just switch it and go, right, we are the company you go to before you go and work for IBM. Market yourself as that. You won't be with us for more than, for more than 5 years, and you'll probably only be with us for 3 years. But here's the benefit. Number 1 is that, all right, you're going to earn less, but we'll prepare you for all the problems that you're going to deal with at a larger company. 2, you'll learn just generally about how to work, how to, how to think. Um, number 3 is the— we— and this is where potentially some of the older people who a bit more knowledge might hang around, and they— this might give them a bit of a reason to stay as well. You'll have a mentor of someone who's been in the industry for 20 years, um, and they will work with you over the next 3 years. And if in 5 years' time you're still here, well, I'm gonna fire you because you're gonna be— you should have moved on yourself. And just position it like that, and it just makes it— you almost become like a— I can't think of the word. I keep thinking of entrepreneur. What's the word when you go and work for someone like a bricklayer?
Leanne ElliottLike an internship? Apprenticeship.
Al ElliottApprenticeship. That's the word I'm thinking of. Almost like you become an apprenticeship program, um, and you can tick all your boxes there. And also you might find some of the older people who are thinking of moving on, or even some of the younger people who think of moving on, they'd get so much out of being a mentor. Like, we have a client, um, with one particular guy who I won't mention his name, but, um, he's a superstar and he kind of lives to mentor new people. And this business is very similar. They tend to take people on very, very young, train them up, and then I think they expect them to move on. Um, and, and so I think there's a really smart way of putting it together. And you don't have to worry because like Leanne said, if they want career progression, and you simply can't give it, what do you want us to do?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYou can't magic it.
Leanne ElliottNo, you can't. And again, like, and I think you're right, Alex, it's a really smart way to do it, is that, that reposition yourself. But you're also going to have to, have to have a long hard talk with yourself about whether you are the person that is able to do this, because you will still invest the time and effort in this person, potentially even more so than you already have. You might— you can either see it as I've spent 5 years training that person up to be the best they can be, and now they're going to go and work for my competitor. Or you can kind of think of it as I've had the pleasure and privilege of nurturing a young person in their career. They're always going to think fondly of me and my business, and maybe once they've gone out into the world for 2 or 3 years, they'll come back and go, you know what, this is the best place I've ever worked, I want to work here again. Um, so I think it's either way. I think it's, you know, the overarching— it's going to take a mind, uh, mindset shift from you. And I think if you really can't handle all that, um, you know, that, that responsibility really in terms of nurturing people and encouraging them to move on, then I would maybe look at contractors as a way of, of better managing, um, you know, how you get the work done in your business without the emotional drain of it.
Al ElliottAre you ready for the final question?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI manage a medium-sized team, and lately I've noticed my guys are hesitant to give honest feedback. Either to me or to each other. It started to stifle our innovation and improvement, and I feel like we're stuck in a bit of a rut. The problem is, I think people are afraid of speaking up because they don't want to rock the boat, or maybe they just don't feel comfortable enough to share their true thoughts. Now, from what I understand is that this is relatively new. Previously, they were happy to do that. I hope it's not because they are scared of what I might say. I try so hard to be the best manager possible. I really want to create a culture where constructive feedback is encouraged and valued, and team members feel they can share their opinions. What do I need to fix so that everyone feels safe and motivated to contribute?
Leanne ElliottInteresting. I, I think the starting place is, when did this change and what was happening in the business at the point in which it changed? It sounds as though you had psychological safety and you've lost a little bit of that. I mean, the typical reasons people don't feel able to share openly is because they've been criticised or belittled or humiliated or just made to feel bad about the feedback they've given. It could be that they're not seeing the impact of their feedback, that they're putting themselves in a professionally, personally uncomfortable situation. Let's be honest, always the easiest thing to give feedback, particularly constructive feedback. They're putting themselves out there and they're not seeing the change, or the change isn't going to be communicated with them. It's kind of like Paula said last week, if you're going to make change, change— would you say change loudly?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt's that kind of thing that if it's more of a morale drain to ask people for feedback and do nothing with it, you're better from a psychological perspective Not asking in the first place. So, it could be that, um, I, who, I mean, it could be that something else happening in, in the business, for example. Um, if there's another team somewhere else that there's been made layoffs, for example, people can sometimes lose a sense of safety from, from that and security from that and will be less willing to, to open up through fear of putting themselves in the spotlight. Um, The only way you're really going to find out is to ask, but I appreciate it's difficult for you to ask right now because you're not really getting the feedback. I would suggest that you bring in a consultant, um, really just to do a, um, a focus group or one-to-ones, whatever you think or whatever they would think once they've had some chats with you would be better to really kind of get down to the, um, the core issues to why there's been this change in behaviour. What's really positive is that as a manager, you've noticed this shift in behaviour, and that is, that is the key in terms of everything. You know, people ask is, how do I know if my staff people burnt out? How do I know if they're going to quit? How do I know if something's going on that they're not telling me about? Changes in behavior, they're your red flags that something is happening. So it's brilliant that you've recognized this, but now you need to understand exactly why that change has occurred. Um, you're gonna have to be very clear around confidentiality. Your expectations are going to have to be managed in terms of what will be shared with you. It won't necessarily be the specific— this is the, this is the key moment and reason and event that happened that changed everyone's mind. It could be people don't feel that their feedback being actioned in the most effective way. So, your consultant will work with you to go, well, these are the steps we can take to do it. That would be my thought. It's either something that's the relationship, some relationship within the team that's breaking down, it's relationship between you and the team that's breaking down, it's something externally that is creating fear, so people are less inclined to share, or it'll stem from some kind of disillusionment that having this feedback is going to have any impact, so why bother putting the effort into that?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut that's kind of the only way that you're going to find out is why you've had this dip in psychological safety. The other thing you could do it if people aren't reluctant to give verbal feedback or detailed feedback or what we'd call qualitative feedback is try and run some kind of employee engagement survey to see where these levers of engagement are falling down or are struggling. If you do already have that in place, look at the results over the 6 to 12 months that you've seen this shift. And more than likely, if you've seen a dip, for example, in the quality of relationships, that's going to indicate a dip in psychological safety as well. And this is why predictive models of employee engagement is so important, because using something like that, like the Oryx-7, and there's other ones out there, but you're going to be able to pinpoint what it is within the team and the culture of the team.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThat is having an impact on the, um, the attitudes and behaviors of the team that actually have an impact on things like creativity and innovation. Um, so you're going to be able to track that journey in the data if the tool you're using is good enough and powerful enough to do that. So that would be my thought. I think at this point, if you're really, you know, knocking your head against a brick wall with it, um, I'd get some kind of third party in, um, to try and gather some some insights into what's shifted.
Al ElliottVery, very good advice. One last thing before we finish up is, uh, potentially thinking back to something you said maybe about 2 or 3 episodes ago when you first took over that contract down in the south of England and you had that, um, um, I think you called it a shitposting day, but it's more like sort of an amnesty day where you can just sit down with the team and go, right, nothing will leave this room. Whatever you say, as long as it's with respect, it will be taken on board. Let's get this out. This— things have changed. Why? And you'll have probably a silence for about the first 10 minutes, and then you'll start to find out. And I bet you'll find that something which was just really simple and no one had thought it through, and that's what's triggered all this. So definitely get in touch with Leanne if you're— if you've got a problem like this as well, or if you've written this letter and you're listening, which I hope you are, then get in touch with Leanne and book a free 30-minute call, and she will talk more depth and more specifically about your expl— about your situation. Lee, I believe sadly we are out of time.
Leanne ElliottBoo!
Al ElliottHowever, we are back in just on— just under or just over 2 days' time, 48 hours' time, on Thursday, where we've got an amazing guest, a guy called Adrian Lomas. He's a professional EOS implementer, um, and he bases everything on something called the Traction System, which is a great book by Gino Wickman. He is such a nice guy. I've known him for about 7 17 years now, I think. And I knew him when he was doing really well, and then I didn't know him when it was going really, really badly and he was sleeping under his desk. So it's a great story as well as a great example of a system that can really help you create and run an amazing business. Lee, anything to add before we say goodbye?
Leanne ElliottUm, no, but when we're not recording, I'd want to know why you, um, left Adrian in the dark when he was going through a hard time. Sounds a bit harsh, Al.
Al ElliottUm, I, I moved with my wife to Spain.
Leanne ElliottAh, my fault, of course. Blame me.
Al Elliott100% your fault. Uh, so yeah, we will, we'll see you on Thursday. In the meantime, if you haven't subscribed, please help us subscribe. We're currently, this week, we're currently number 7 in the Spotify charts for business in the UK. That comes from people like you listening on Spotify, if you are, and clicking subscribe, or even better, giving us a rating as well, or a review, because that could really help. If you're on other apps, then that will also still help us as well. So yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the newsletter, subscribe to the LinkedIn newsletter.
Al ElliottI always forget about that. Go to LinkedIn, search for Truth, Lies and Work. You'll find the page there and there's a great newsletter. And also you can carry on the conversation because we bring our guests in as well on there. So you can actually chat to them. Paula's on there from last week. We will see you next time then.
Leanne ElliottSee you next time then.
Al ElliottBye-bye.
Leanne ElliottAnd Work, the award-winning psychology podcast that helps you do something, and that is not the right thing to say.
Al ElliottSorry, I stole your line. Son of a bitch stole my line.