Episode 114 · 10 July 2024 · 47:53
The truth about ambition: Finding Fulfilment in the 'Power Middle', with Cate Luzio
Featuring Cate Luzio
The truth about ambition: Finding Fulfilment in the 'Power Middle', with Cate Luzio
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Introducing Cate Luzio: from banking to founder
The transition from corporate structure to entrepreneurship
interview#corporate-to-startup#entrepreneur-journey#leadership
What is the Power Middle?
A day in the Power Middle: influence without title
interview#power-middle#influence-without-title#career-advice
Rethinking total compensation and ambition
The myth of the linear career climb
How to measure success in the middle
Men promoted on potential, women on performance
Redefining leadership and influence
Luminary success stories and what keeps the Power Middle up at night
interview#success-stories#career-challenges#women-in-business
Show notes
The Truth About Ambition: Finding Fulfilment in the 'Power Middle' — with Cate Luzio
Guest: Cate Luzio — Founder & CEO of Luminary, former Senior Vice President at Bank of America, Managing Director of Global Corporate Banking at JP Morgan, and Managing Director at HSBC.
What if the goal isn't the C-suite? What if the most fulfilling, influential, and powerful place to be is right in the middle?
Cate Luzio spent the first half of her career climbing the ranks of the world's biggest banks. Then, in 2018, she walked away to found Luminary — a global professional education and networking platform for women and allies at every stage of their careers.
In this special July interview, Cate joins Al and Leanne to unpack the "Power Middle": the mid-career professionals and middle managers who don't aspire to the top — and why they're the backbone of every organisation. They dig into why men are often promoted on potential while women are promoted on performance, how to redefine compensation beyond salary, and why leadership has nothing to do with where you sit on the org chart.
Top 3 Takeaways
The Power Middle is where the work gets done. Mid-career professionals and middle managers may not want the C-suite, but they hold the influence, the relationships, and the institutional knowledge that keep organisations moving. Recognise it, invest in it, reward it.
Broaden your definition of compensation. It's not just salary. Bonuses, flexibility, professional development, and the freedom to do meaningful work all count. Have open conversations with your manager about what "total comp" means for you.
Promote on potential, not just performance. Men are often promoted on potential — women on performance. Managers need to actively mentor and sponsor people based on where they could go, not just what they've already delivered.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name's Al, I'm a business owner. See, it has, it has ruined the theme. Go on, carry on.
Leanne ElliottWe're here to help you simplify the science of work. We're gonna have to redo our intro now based on that.
Al ElliottIf you didn't listen last week and you haven't seen on LinkedIn, Leanne got, got officially chartered. She's now a chartered occupational psychologist or business psychologist, um, which is brilliant news. But awful news for the scanning of our intro where it used to go, I'm a business psychologist, I'm a business owner. Now we have to think of something else.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnyway, you are here on Thursday because you wanna hear a great interview. Uh, the good news for you is that all of July, every episode is a great interview episode for you because on August we ain't working that much. So we're only gonna do one episode a week. So we thought we'd do all the, all the, um, the interview episodes on a Thursday.
Leanne ElliottYes. If you are listening to this in real time, um, we're gonna do 2 different bits now. And with the power of editing, Al will figure out which one works. I mean, before we dive into today's interview, Al, can we just talk about the football last night? How glorious! England are in the Euros final. Woo!
Al ElliottI hate, I hate to tell you this, but I'm going to be editing this before Thursday, so I won't.
Leanne ElliottOh, okay. Then, then in that case, listener, just skip ahead or, or back. You'll— it's like one of those books where you have to pick how it ends.
Al ElliottIf England won, then go to page 43.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And then now this, I'll do the bit. Oh, I think we also need a good, a good conversation today, Al, to get us over the disappointment of last night, England being knocked out of the Euros in the semifinals. I blame insert name here.
Al ElliottGareth Southgate. That's the— we can always blame Gareth Southgate.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnyway, let's get back.
Cate LuzioPoor Gareth.
Al ElliottI know. Poor, poor Gareth. But a lot of our listeners are from the States, including our—
Leanne ElliottYou don't care.
Al ElliottYeah, I was gonna say, including our guest today. So you couldn't give a shiny About what's going on in the, in the football in England. Leah?
Leanne ElliottYes, so as Al said, in July we are bringing you back-to-back interviews on a Tuesday and a Thursday, so you can download them, binge them when you're on holiday, when you're on your vacations. Fear not, we will still be here in August. We are having it off, we'll just probably do a bit of pre-recording, um, and it'll just be Al and I with our regular Tuesday This Week in Work episode. So Some lighthearted banter, some silly news stories, and maybe the odd question from our weekly workplace surgery.
Al ElliottOur world-famous weekly workplace surgery. I've learned how to say it now. So today we have a guest who spent the first half of her career climbing the ranks of some of the biggest banking institutions in the world.
Leanne ElliottYeah, a pretty incredible woman. She was Senior Vice President at the Bank of America before becoming Managing Director of Global Corporate Banking at JP Morgan— name drops— then moving into a very senior role as Managing Director for HSBC. You'd think that our guest was destined for the top slot at a bank, and I suspect that's what she thought too. But 6 years ago, in 2018, she quit her job and built an organization dedicated to helping women excel in the corporate world. That company is called Luminary. If you haven't guessed already, our guest today is the incredible Cate Luzio, LinkedIn Top Voice, writer for Forbes and Fast Company, and all-round powerhouse. Today she talks about the messy middle. This is a hugely underserved and under-recognized section of the corporate world and a very, very interesting conversation. Also a masterclass on management. We'll learn what the messy middle is, why it might be different for men and women, why some people are happy staying in the middle, and how and why Luminary was born. Let's go meet Cate and find out exactly what the messy middle is. Oh, and do also look out for the exact moment where Al was lost for words.
Cate LuzioCate Luzio. I am presently the founder and CEO of Luminary, which is a global professional education and networking platform. I'm sure we're going to get into that. I spent the better part of 20 years in finance before becoming an entrepreneur. What am I known for? What am I famous for? So in high school, now we're dating, I'm dating myself here. But my, at least my high school friends would know, I won 2 years in a row, Jell-O and pudding wrestling. I was the Jell-O and pudding wrestling champion. We did it for fundraising. I don't think you could even do that now, but I was the champion 2 years in a row.
Al ElliottI have so many things I want to say about that. I don't think any one of the things I'm thinking about is appropriate for the podcast. I think I will move on. How does working in finance, which it feels to me like kind of a structured kind of corporate environment, then moving to entrepreneurship, what was that transition like?
Cate LuzioVery difficult. It's still very difficult. I mean, I'm almost 6 years into this since when I actually left my, at the time, my career in finance to become an entrepreneur. I am used to, and I love structure. I also, not many entrepreneurs would say this, but I loved and I wish I still had a boss. It, I have in my, and I think of my life, right? So as a kid, you had a coach, you had teachers, those were in effect some kinds of like your boss. They provided structure. When you get into your professional career, you have that boss. So entrepreneurship has been for me, I think the roughest transition has been Sort of going from a very structured environment, very black and white, to everything's gray. There's no structure. I've spent the better part of the last 5 years as I built my team in putting in structure because many of them did not either. They didn't come from the corporate background. And so they were used to not having structure. So I've built the business very, I think, concretely to have a structure, one so that I can survive in it and thrive in it. But so that ultimately my team can as well. And if they choose to move on to other companies, they then have that structure that they're used to. But definitely probably one of the hardest transitions I could ever imagine going from finance to entrepreneurship.
Al ElliottCan I also say as an entrepreneur that I am insanely jealous of the fact that you've made an enormous success from your first business, Entrepreneur of the Year in 2021. And I think most entrepreneurs listening to this will be like, oh, that's not fair. Anyway, let's talk about this, let's talk about this power middle, which seems to be like a running theme. I don't understand what it is. Talk to me.
Cate LuzioSo for, for if we're just taking sort of women in the workforce, there's often been this, there's the messy middle, the frozen middle, right? Whether I've, I'm in that middle manager role, I can't get to the next level. It seems more apparent for women because of, you know, children, taking time off to have a family. There's just not enough roles. Okay, we know all of that. That is definitely still a challenge and an issue as we think about the pipeline. But I think we have pigeonholed, again, in particular women, those that are from underrepresented communities, into this frozen middle, this messy middle without actually thinking and sort of reframing the narrative that if you are in the middle, plenty of people are very happy to be in the middle, right? They don't necessarily want to ascend to the C-suite. They don't want that responsibility, but they still want to be paid well. They still want to have opportunities. They still want to be recognized and rewarded. How do you, if you are in that middle, which is actually the majority of the workforce, kind of take back your power and use it in a way where you are Becoming much more powerful, much more influential in the role that you have today. So that 80% of the workforce that we would say is in that middle, it's not just middle management, it's anybody that's sitting in that sort of that middle of their career, or even they've been in it for 20 years, they just don't ever aspire to be again at the C-level. How do we make sure that they are feeling, yes, recognized, acknowledged, But that as an individual, as a performer, you're actually making sure that you're building that power and that influence and that you are in the driver's seat of your career, if you will.
Al ElliottSo if someone's listening to this and thinking, am I in this messy power middle? What would their workday look like that would be typical of someone who fits into this profile?
Cate LuzioI'm not a senior leader yet. Now, it doesn't mean you're not a leader. It just doesn't mean on the org chart you're not a senior leader. And I think we, again, many companies and corporations, we think of the very people at the top are those are the only ones with power. And that's actually not true because I look at my career, especially in finance throughout my career, because of the relationships that I built, my performance, my results, the stakeholder management, everything that I did. I started to build up that influence and that power at each stage of my career. I didn't ever want to be the CEO of a bank. I never would want to be that. But that doesn't mean I didn't have power in each of my roles. And it didn't mean I couldn't continue to build power and influence. Oftentimes, people think that the only path to promotion is becoming a manager. That may be the case in some roles and in some companies. But It's actually not the case for all. And being an individual contributor to— I manage a small team, or I just want to work, do my time, and sort of get out so that I have a life as well. There's nothing wrong with that. But you still have to work hard, and you still have to build again that reputation of who you are, why someone would want to invest their time in you. Do you have mentors and sponsors? It's not just the people that are the superstars and the rock stars that should have all of that. It's also what, again, what we've defined as the power middle. You've got to invest in the power middle, otherwise they leave, right? And if managers and senior leaders, if they don't have the people, the doers sort of in the middle doing the work and kind of really producing results, they don't have much, right? Because they rely on the rest of their teams to do that work. That's really actually super important when you think about it. They're building the culture, they're influencing the people below, they're influencing the people around them. And we sort of— corporate America sort of taken the power out of that.
Leanne ElliottI think what's interesting about Cate is that she's helping women and basically anyone to embrace the idea that you don't need to fight your way to the top to have a great job or a great career. I'm pretty sure almost every network out there that's like Luminary markets themselves as doing the exact opposite. They help people rise to the highest ranks possible.
Al ElliottExactly. It's kind of refreshing, but we, we, I suppose we're sort of programmed at an early age to strive to be promoted as often as possible. But Cate's kind of doing the opposite. She's saying it's okay to not want that top job. What I couldn't quite get my head around is this. If you don't want the top spot, then does that mean you're not ambitious? Obviously, Cate is perfectly positioned to talk about this. So I asked her to explain what I'd get instead if I didn't ruthlessly pursue promotions. What is it that I could get staying in the middle that doesn't include promotion?
Cate LuzioThink about just straight up your compensation. And I use the word again, like I mentioned earlier, total compensation. What does it include, right? When you peel back the onion and you think about it as an employee wherever you work, is that just straight-up salary every 2 weeks? Is that— does there a bonus? Is there an opportunity for a bonus? Does that include your building? If personal time off and vacation is important to you, did you start with something and you build to that? Like, Are you getting more time off every year that you're still there, right? Rewarding loyalty too within the company. Is there flexibility? I don't want to work in the office every single day. Maybe I work from the office 3 days a week. Maybe I want to be completely remote. Is that a bargaining chip? Is that leverage for you in thinking about, again, total compensation? So, I think we've learned again that compensation is just about the dollars. I think the pandemic really showed a really big light on what else is important to you. What are your priorities? Maybe it is that I want to get home every day to, you know, welcome my kids off the bus. Doesn't mean I'm not going to go back to work and get back on the computer, but that's something that is important to me. Can I do that? Not every company is going to allow that, right? That's where you have to have this conversation. With your manager. And I think part of being rewarded, kind of looking at compensation. When I ask this question to any sort of company that we're working with, I say, how good is your relationship with your direct manager? Oftentimes there's lots of, oh, I have great— okay, how often do you talk to your manager outside of giving sort of a progress report of what you're working on or you're asking for help on a challenge? Very few people have open dialogue around their personal lives, around what's important to them, around how their priorities may have changed over time. Again, depending on where you are in your life cycle of your life. So much of this starts with communication and dialogue, right? I think when the pandemic hit, everybody was in the same boat. We were all on some type of virtual environment. We had a window into the lives of the people that we worked with, that worked for us, and that we were Now it's sort of back to pre-pandemic, if you will. And so why have we forgotten about that? And so if you are thinking about your priorities and compensation and being rewarded, maybe you have that string to pull. Like, I don't want to be a manager, or maybe I do one day, but right now I'm actually good. I've got a lot going on, but I'd love some additional flexibility in my role. I would love to to be a project lead on something specific versus I don't need to be a manager. You can still build your skills and build your responsibilities and expand your responsibilities even if you're not promoted for it. I often think women in particular are promoted on performance versus potential. I think that thing must change and managers need to be trained differently around thinking of their people about potential versus just performance. I think there's definitely a balance there that needs to happen. I was often promoted on potential because I had great sponsors, mentors, and really good dialogue and open communication with my managers around where I wanted my career to go, what did I need to do to continue to progress on the path. Many times, we're not having that conversation with our managers.
Al ElliottWell, let's talk about perspective here for a second, because if you are senior leadership, then it's a good chance that you— and again, we're going to be really, really generalistic here, but you might be a Type A. Yes, a Type A. You want to climb the ladder, and you get to the top, and you've done it. Now you're looking back at what you called the messy middle, the power middle. As a senior leader, I'm thinking, Well, why do people not want to climb the ladder? That's all I wanted in life. So how are we going to reeducate senior leaders to see that climbing the ladder is not it all?
Cate LuzioI love that you said that. I think we, and again, it doesn't matter your gender. I think we've been fed this sort of the only route to success is if you become the C-level, right? And we see it in particular for women quite a bit. I would argue, do you know what that— what comes with getting to the C-level? And the reason I say I would never want to be the CEO of a bank, not that I don't think that I could do it, is that I don't want that responsibility. I don't want to sit in regulatory meetings day in and day out. I like to be with clients. I like to be with people. So it's— I don't I don't want a life of compliance. That is what, for me, thinking about a CEO role at a bank today would entail. So when you think about why, you know, this— I would have had the same perspective as you, and I did have the same perspective as you, call it 7 or 8 years ago, until I walked into a room with a gentleman that worked in my organization. He didn't report to me. He was sort of underneath one of my managers and managers. And I was visiting him. I was visiting clients and teams up in Buffalo, New York, and upstate New York, and got in a meeting with him one-on-one versus a roundtable. And he said to me, Cate, I'm never going to hit a home run or a grand slam. So that's a baseball analogy, right? But I'm going to give you consistent doubles. Now, my immediate reaction was, why would you tell your boss that if you're trying to impress them and you want them to think that you're the superstar and a rising star and you want to get paid more? I left that conversation with that same feeling that I just mentioned. And then I started to really contemplate, like, why would he tell me this? One, I looked at his performance. And over the past several years, and I was a relatively new person at the organization, so I was doing a listening tour, if you will. Consistent performance every single year, never wavered. He never had a down year. He had consistent performance. 2, in the office, people liked him. People went to him even though he didn't want to be a manager. He had no aspiration to be a manager, and he never wanted to move to the head office. He wanted to be acknowledged and rewarded for what he was contributing in that office in Buffalo, New York. He could still be seen, and he was seen as a leader without being a manager. He also had influence. He had influence amongst his peers. He had influence within the management, and then certainly for those below him. And so I watched him over that course of that year, consistent doubles. He never— his performance never wavered. And so I realized that there are plenty of those people. We tend to forget about them because they're not the rising stars or the superstars or the rock stars. There can— there has to be both because you can't have all rock stars and you can't have all all rising stars. You need others around you. They also help really build that culture. And they never have the ups and downs. Totally changed my perspective on performance management, investing in talent. And I use air quotes there because talent is often seen in organizations as the top talent. We're looking at it in my perspective and in the incorrect way. Talent should be everybody in your organization. How you treat them, how you invest in them. Some will stay, some will go, some will rise up, and some will just continue to perform at the level over and over and over again. And that was Richard, and he totally changed my perspective.
Al ElliottSo just as— just before we leave this idea, then, for someone who's going, okay, I get that there are some people who don't want to become— don't want to progress, but I want to know what other avenues are there? How else are they going to measure their success in their career if it's not progression?
Cate LuzioWell, number one is, are they getting paid? Right? So compensation is a big measure of, and again, I use success and performance. If I'm being penalized because I'm not climbing the ladder, that's a different conversation. But if I continue to feel valued, through what I'm getting compensation-wise. And I think of compensation in lots of different ways. It's not just my paycheck. There's bonus, there's flexibility, there's vacation time. There could be lots of other perks in there. I don't have to move to New York City or London or Hong Kong or wherever. I'm staying in my, my city, which is Buffalo, as in this example. We, we tend to look at compensation in one way, and there's lots of ways to look at it. If I'm being acknowledged, right? Even in that, I am seen as a leader and I have influence and I can have power in some decision-making. Doesn't mean I have to be a manager. And not everybody wants to be a manager, nor should everybody become a manager. There are some really bad managers out there. So, I think we have to start having this dialogue with our people around what are their aspirations. Because again, talk to Cate Luzio, 8 10 years ago, if someone had said to me, I have no aspiration to manage, I have no aspiration to get to the top, I would have likely walked out of the room, said, well, they're kind of self-selecting, I'm not really going to invest in them. I changed after that conversation because I realized that you need all kinds of players on the team, right? Think about it, in any sport, you can't just have the goal scorer in football, right? You need all the team Working together. And that's the same in every team. You need all kinds of people, all kinds of perspectives, all kinds of skills. That's what builds a high-performing team. It's like, okay, if you're going to pay me the same, or maybe even a little more, what comes with that? Is that something that I want out of my career? I want to be managing 10 people. I've got to do performance management for all of those people. I've got to deal with HR. Uh, It takes time away from me and what I love the best, which are being with clients. You have to think about all of what comes along with becoming a manager or rising up. By the way, do it if that's something that you aspire to do. That was me and that continues to be me. But I think at different points in our career, we can start to be okay with where we're at. I had someone a few weeks ago, I was leading a workshop, a virtual workshop with one of our enterprise clients. And someone asked in the chat, what if I'm just really happy in my current role? Oh my, that's like, that's a novel idea. People, many people are actually happy in their current roles, right? But we still have, that doesn't mean we shouldn't invest in them and acknowledge and reward them and reward reward comes in lots of different ways. But I think you also have to remember, if you are aspiring and you are climbing that ladder, what comes along with climbing that ladder.
Leanne ElliottKate makes an excellent point. The majority of work that gets done and progress made in an organization is almost exclusively down to this messy middle. And my experience as both a consultant and a manager in organizations has shown that traditionally men can be perceived ambitious than women. And furthermore, as women, if you admit out loud that you're not interested in progression, then you kind of get written off.
Al ElliottI asked Cate about this, and Cate admits that she actually used to think the same thing herself.
Cate LuzioAnd I'll use that same example as Richard. So when I walked out of that room and then contemplated, or sort of thought back to my conversation, and then looked at his performance, I realized, okay, he's just a He just performs and he's a good worker and he's a leader in the office and that's okay. Great. We'll continue to invest in him. If a woman had said that to me, and again, I'm being very transparent, I probably would've said, well, I'm not really going to invest in her. She's kind of self-selecting out. She doesn't have aspirations. Because of what's been told to us and fed to us for the last, whatever, 100 years or 50 years. Hey, the only way to be successful as a woman is if you keep climbing the ladder. You can have it all. You can do it all. You can have everything. I don't believe that. But that also challenged me as a woman, as a woman leader, that, wow, I actually was thinking I had that bias between men and women, and I didn't even recognize it until that conversation. And so that's why the power middle for me has become so important. One, it's challenging my own bias that I had as a leader and as a manager. But 2 is also recognizing that there are lots of different people in the workforce. And that doesn't mean we don't invest in them and we don't, again, acknowledge and reward and contribute to their success. Their success just may look different than ours. And again, being very transparent. It changed for me for that particular individual who was a white male. And, but what I realized in that conversation and him sort of almost changing my mind without even me knowing it, he was building his own sphere of influence much broader than Buffalo. He's now got a very senior leader and manager on his side. Had I had that same conversation a week later with one of my women bankers, I probably would have had that bias and saying, what do you mean? Don't you want to rise to the top? Don't you want to climb the ladder? Don't you want to do more? Because that's what I was taught. It didn't really flip for me until I became this entrepreneur and running Luminary where I had exposure to so many types of let's call it traditional employees across the workforce because we work with so many enterprise companies across lots of different industries that I had not had that exposure because most of my career was in finance. And I think as a woman in finance, you're often told like, you've got to just keep going, keep going, keep going. Otherwise, you're not a success. Again, I'm very honest and transparent. I think that that bias continued to live on for me. as a woman. And it wasn't until I started my company and really started opening the aperture around all different kinds of employees and watching what was happening even before the pandemic, and then certainly what happened during the pandemic around how we treat, let's call it, quote unquote, talent or just people in the workforce.
Al ElliottJust so I understand, are you saying that performance versus potential, are you saying that one of them is predominantly What men are promoted on and one from the women?
Cate LuzioOh, absolutely.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Cate LuzioAnd this is— I mean, this isn't something new. Men are often promoted on potential, right? I think you'll be great for this job. We're going to put you in this role and invest in you, and you're going to perform. Women, it's often, well, we don't want to take a risk on her yet because we haven't seen her perform in this kind of role. So we're going to put her in there. And then till she performs, then we're going to promote her, then we're going to give her more, more responsibility, then we're going to give her more money. This is a common thing that's happened in the more traditional workforce. Part of that is there's still mostly men in leadership positions, at least at the senior level. And so I think until that change. I'm not saying that people should be promoted without merit, but there are oftentimes, and I've written about this, when you're in a sort of a group, let's call it a committee, and I was in this a lot when I was in finance, a woman would come up for, oh, could she be in this role? Well, she's just not ready yet. And not very frequently ever heard that about a guy. It was, well, let's put him in that role and we're going to give him the resources and the tools to support him and he'll perform. It's also why, and I think you probably know this, the statistic is still out there, which drives me crazy, that when there is a role, women will apply for it if they have 90 to 100% of the skills that are required and men do it at You know, 30 to 40%. That's also part of this performance and potential. We've been told over and over, until you perform, you're not getting in that role. So potential, that's such a huge opportunity, but we have to take risks on people. And throughout my career, I was fortunate where I had, for the most part, really good managers that saw my potential and wanted to put me in those roles. And were going to give me the guidance and the support and the mentorship if I was stumbling to help me become better in that role. I think we often think of this again as very black and white. Well, if they don't have the skills, they can't do it. I'm so thankful in my career that for most of the roles that I took outside of, I think, my last job, I never had all of the skills that would have been on that resume or that job description. I was tapped to say, hey, Kate, we think you can do this. You should consider it. Why me? By the final time before I left my last job, I said, why me? And that convinced me why I should work for you in that job versus why me? Why should it be me? When I got my first really, I mean, I think instrumental role in finance. I was at Bank of America and I was being asked to do a job. I really was like, I don't know any of this stuff. And they said, we are going to give you the support technically to help build those skills. We're also going to give you a buddy. And at the time, he was a managing director, very senior in the organization. Fernando, if you're listening. And they said, Any question that you have, he's going to be sort of like your guide here. Ask him the questions, the acronyms you don't know, things like, again, organizationally. That was one of the best things that that manager, that leader, his name is Richie Prager, he's amazing, ever did. Because he saw potential in me. He also knew he couldn't just put me in this role without any support. And that was a great way for me to not only learn from this other seasoned professional, Really also helped for me develop a new mentoring relationship. And I was very— I felt very invested in, and I built up a lot of loyalty for me because I could go to those people. I was in a role for a reason. It also helped me kind of puff up my chest a little bit, right? That confidence was boosted because of that belief in my potential. But it wasn't without merit and it wasn't without a thought process around how do we make sure she's successful, not just send her out and, oh well, let's hope for the best. And this is where I think there needs to be a lot more training for managers. Richie happened to be one of the most senior leaders at the time at Bank of America. He had a very long career. He ended up having a much longer career, then went to BlackRock. But, and he's still a mentor of mine. Anytime I got into a new role, And I was building it, I had a new team, or someone new came onto my team, I would say, all right, here are the 5 people that you need to go meet, and I will help you set up those meetings. One-on-one shadowing, great opportunity. One, you get to learn, you get exposure, you get visibility. Two, you are also by osmosis learning. Setting those one-on-ones are so easy, right? You reach out to other leaders in your sort of sphere of influence, other peers, and say, hey, listen, I got this new person on my team. I'd love for you to spend 15 minutes with them. Whatever you can make because I know we're all very busy. That's a vote of confidence right there about that person. Those 30, 60, 90-day plans is a great way for that person to go back to the manager and say, this is great. The 5 things that I wanted to do in the first 30 days, I've done. Now I'm on to my 60-90. That also instills in them this planning and preparation. They begin to do it on their own. And I will tell you, they will then do it for people that eventually work for them. So you, you start this great cycle of sort of investing in talent and Opens the door of communication and dialogue, transparency around what you're great at, what you're not great at, where you think you need more support and help. And I think that asking for help and support is a sign of strength versus weakness. If you had asked me that in my early part of my career, I would have said it's definitely a weakness. But over time, as I built my career, I realized We all have to ask for help. Nobody's doing any of this alone, whether you're working for a big bank or you're an entrepreneur. You don't do it alone. You need people around you, your boss, your peers, stakeholders, mentors, sponsors. It's a, it's a whole network working for you as you progress, grow, build, navigate your career.
Leanne ElliottAfter this short break, we'll go back to the interview. And find out more about the messy middlers who are content with what they have. Plus, we'll ask Cate a difficult question about her own career. See you in a second. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland. Into an episode, and two out of three of us are devilishly good-looking.
Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you. We need to do this in three: is the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Seamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York. New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting It'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. So we've identified that a messy midlife could be someone who doesn't want the responsibility of being a manager. So does that mean that they can't be a leader? Let's rejoin the interview where Al asks exactly that.
Al ElliottI think a lot of people look at managers and say, are they leaders? But I think that we could ask you the question, uh, should leaders be managers? Um, because I think what you've just said there is a lot of people in the middle who are leading but don't want to be a manager. And that's a totally different thing that I've even thought about. I've never thought about it that way.
Cate LuzioSo my definition of a leader It comes down to a lot of how much influence do you have in the organization, in the team, with your own manager, with your peers. So this idea that you can't— you can be a leader at any stage of your career in any role. And if you think you have to wait until you get that manager title or until you're senior, I would be the first to tell you, you're wrong. I, again, I use Richard. Richard was not a manager. He didn't want to move to head office. He wasn't interested in becoming a superstar. He absolutely was a leader. He had influence. He was building further influence. He was building that sphere of influence. I was one of them. He had the power. 10 years later, I'm still talking about this story. That's powerful. That's influence. And it's all about how you tell your story. And what, again, it goes back to these priorities. What are your priorities? Your priorities, Richard, by the way, I haven't talked to Richard in many years. His priorities may have changed now. Maybe he is leading the office. I should check in with him. That actually would be a good part too. But it all has to be what you also want. This goes back to what I said in the very beginning. I think We've oftentimes put our managers in the driver's seat of our career when really they're actually a navigator. They are a passenger. We are supposed to be in that driver's seat. We've got the compass, right? Because we, we're the only ones that know what is so important to us and what we want out of our careers at that any given moment. So, you know, No offense to all the companies and the managers out there. Nobody cares about your career more than you do. So be in that driver's seat and decide what you want out of that. Decide when you can show up as a leader, and you can do that every single day.
Al ElliottSo for our listeners, Leah, what do you think you would've done if you hadn't started your own consultancy? Did you ever want to progress up this org chart and get into senior management yourself?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah, I know. Um, I loved being a manager and I was very ambitious. And equally, I've prioritised feeling a personal connection with my work. Um, my work being meaningful is important for me because it's this meaning rather than the money or the status that kind of makes the sacrifice and stress worth it. I mean, psychologically speaking, all we're talking about there is intrinsic motivation. It's what motivates you personally, where you get your kicks And understanding this about yourself is actually really important when it comes down to your own career strategy. I mean, personally speaking, if there is a senior role out there that has a high financial reward, gives me a sense of purpose in my work, and gives me work-life balance as well, then yeah, I probably would take it. But then I'd also like to go for a Guinness in Dublin with Danny from the script, and that doesn't seem likely, albeit not impossible. I think that's the thing, you know, the trouble is, is as things stand, these these higher-level executive jobs take a lot of time and sacrifice. They're greedy jobs. This was a term coined by Professor Claudia Goldin, who is a Nobel Prize-winning economist. She described greedy jobs as demanding roles requiring long hours and high levels of commitment, often at the expense of personal and family time. Yes, these jobs do also typically offer high pay and advancement opportunities, But they are less accommodating to work-life balance. Greedy jobs require sacrifice, rightly or wrongly. Professor Goldin does also argue that this dynamic disproportionately affects women because they quite frequently face greater societal expectations to manage family responsibilities. And with that being said, greedy jobs may also have a significant impact or be a significant contributor to the gender pay gap. So I guess that's the key question here are more women in the messy middle, um, not necessarily by choice, but because they're not willing or supported to sacrifice what it takes to hold on to a greedy job.
Al ElliottI had to ask Cate about this, if she had any regrets about the hard work and sacrifice it took for her to rise up to senior management. Uh, you have got a master's degree, you have— your company's acquired other companies recently, 15,000 members. Entrepreneur of the Year, high, you know, this huge career in banking and finance. Do you ever look back and wish you'd stayed in the middle?
Cate LuzioNo. But what I wish that I would've done while I was navigating so much of my career would've been to understand that no matter where I was in my career, I could continue to have influence and invest in myself, that it wasn't just about the next rung on the ladder, but it was more about what was I actually seeking and what was I climbing that ladder for, right? Because it looks very different to me today than it would have been 20 years ago.
Leanne ElliottWhat an incredible woman and such honesty. I love that that kind of candor. I think it's, I think it's probably about time at this point we find out a bit more about Luminary, Al, don't you? Um, and how it has helped 15,000 women over the last 6 years.
Al ElliottI know you probably can't name anyone on the actual platform, but are there any kind of stories you can tell us about someone who perhaps has come across the platform, started using it, and something's changed in their life?
Cate LuzioSure. I think it's— we have 2 very, I would say distinct audiences, but there's a lot of overlap. So we have our enterprise, you know, our B2B business, which is all the companies that we work with where we're investing in their people, doing workshops, talent development, leadership development. And then we have our B2C, which is our individual members of the Luminary community, of which now they're in 30 countries, maybe even more now. And they're coming of their own volition. They're doing it on their own. 50% of those identify as entrepreneurs, founders, and small business owners, and they're building and navigating those journeys. So they're coming for the support, the guidance, the community, the training and development. Again, regardless of their professional journey, that's part of what we do is it doesn't matter what you're doing. It doesn't also matter what your gender, because we're gender inclusive. And so I look at 3 very think sort of, I came to, you know, multiple workshops and now I have negotiated my company to pay for my MBA. Talk about compensation. We didn't even talk about that. There's lots of other ways, right? If you want to go get your MBA or you want to go back to school, can your company pay for that or pay for some of that? That's a lot of money, especially in the United States. Uh, a business owner coming and Being part of all of our events, like some of the things that we were doing in Minneapolis. I'm now cash flow positive as a business owner, thanks to Luminary and the training and the guidance and all of the workshops. The financial workshop that I took around understanding what a P&L is and understanding cash flow. Now I understand it, and I had my first cash flow quarter of my business, whatever that may be. All the way to, I was able to negotiate a promotion. Or I was able to negotiate paid time off or extended paid time off for parental leave, whatever. Those are all examples of real stories that have come out of members of Luminary, whether they work for some of our corporate partners and members to individuals. And I think that's impact. What I'm trying to build and do every single day is whoever walks in our virtual space, because we're global now and have a very massive digital community, to who walks into our session in Minneapolis or here, right here in New York. I want them to walk away with actionable tips and advice that they can apply to their journey today. Not in 5 years, not in 20 years, today.
Al ElliottThe person who needs Luminary, what are they worrying about at night?
Cate LuzioOoh. So one, They're worrying they're not good enough. They're not confident enough. They feel like they don't have a network around them. They're not visible. They don't have exposure. Or they've got incredible skills and they want to hone them. They want to invest in them. They want to invest in building a bigger network. They've been at the same company for 20 years and they need more external opportunities. They need a bigger external network, right? Because We have a massive external network. I also think some people just want to be part of a really great community and be surrounded by diverse diversity, inclusion, belonging, and that's what Luminary provides. It does. You don't necessarily have to have something or be feeling some way. You just want to be part of a welcoming community that's got your back, no matter what you look like, no matter where you're at in your career. Career and that wants to see you succeed in whatever definition of success is your definition.
Leanne ElliottThat is the amazing Kate Luzio. If you liked that founder story, then go back to episode 33 with Stella Smith, actually our very first founder story. Um, she has a very similar career, um, and also left to start an incredible business.
Al ElliottIf you want to learn a bit more about Kate and Luminary and why wouldn't you? Then here's where you can go.
Cate LuzioYou can go to, uh, weareluminary.com is our, is our website, @weareluminary Instagram. And I'm easily— best place to find me is LinkedIn, and it's Cate Luzio, C-A-T-E-L-U-Z-I-O. Please connect with me, would love to hear your stories.
Al ElliottThat is all for today. Next Tuesday, remember, it's not the normal Tuesday episode, it's an interview episode. We have a guy who has spent his entire life building brands, and he's going to show you exactly how to build an amazing employer brand that will effortlessly attract amazing people to your organisation.
Leanne ElliottSounds good. Maybe a bit more business strategy application there as well. So I must remind you, listener, if you're listening to this on holiday, do remember to take some time off and properly recharge.
Al ElliottBefore you take your time off though, just take your, take your phone out and click subscribe, because if you got to this far, how's that If you got this far, then you obviously like our stuff. So make sure you click subscribe. And because it really helps us, by the way, we got to number 4 in the Spotify business charts from just from people like you who've clicked subscribe and listened to the whole thing. So click subscribe. Can I say that again?
Leanne ElliottAnd thank you.
Al ElliottAnd thank you. But I think it's probably time we went, Leanne.
Cate LuzioYeah.
Al ElliottBye for now.
Cate LuzioBye.
Al ElliottBrilliant. Wow, that was just flawless.
Leanne ElliottYou told me, you shouted at me, you were like, Leah, read it, revise, because I will not accept any fuck-ups. Did you or did you not say that?
Al ElliottI did actually say that. I did very much say that. If you want— if you want— Did you want to progress up the org? I've put a really bad intonation on all of this.
Leanne ElliottDrive me crazy. It was on the radio and I've had it in my head all day.