Episode 123 · 27 August 2024 · 43:10
How to disagree with your boss, Aussie work reforms and menowashing - This Week in Work 27th August 2024
How to disagree with your boss, Aussie work reforms and menowashing - This Week in Work 27th August 2024
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News: Menowashing
news roundup#news#menowashing#gender-equality
News: Managers vs. Leaders
news roundup#news#managers#leaders#leadership
News: Australia's Right to Disconnect Law
news roundup#news#australia#right-to-disconnect#work-life-balance
Workplace Time Capsule: Equal Pay 1968
news roundup#workplace-time-capsule#equal-pay#1968#history
Workplace Surgery: Leading a more experienced team
workplace surgery#workplace-surgery#leading#experienced-team#management
Workplace Surgery: Disagreeing with your boss in a meeting
workplace surgery#workplace-surgery#disagreeing#boss#meeting
Workplace Surgery: Encouraging PTO without guilt
workplace surgery#workplace-surgery#pto#vacation#guilt
Show notes
How to Disagree with Your Boss, Aussie Work Reforms & Menowashing — This Week in Work
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the new "right to disconnect" law Down Under, why "menowashing" is the latest marketing trap to watch, and the difference between managers and leaders. Plus, in the Workplace Surgery: leading a more experienced team, disagreeing with your boss in meetings, and how to encourage PTO without the guilt.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. "Menowashing" — the new greenwashing? Leanne introduces a new term: "menowashing." It's when brands cash in on the menopause movement by marketing products with little scientific backing. With the global menopause market predicted to hit $22.7 billion by 2030, expect more of it. The takeaway? Not all supplements are created equal — check the evidence, not the packaging. Source → (via The Telegraph)
2. Managers vs. Leaders — a tweet that says it all Al shares a thought-provoking tweet from Rob Dance: "When I talk to managers, I get the feeling they're important. When I talk to leaders, I get the feeling I'm important." It's a simple line with a big lesson — leadership is about making others feel valued, not just wielding authority. Source → (via Rob Dance on X)
3. Australia's new "Right to Disconnect" law Hot off the press: as of 26th August 2024, Australian workers have a legal right to ignore work-related communications after hours without fear of repercussions. It's a landmark move — but enforcement is where the real test lies. Will it change culture or just create paperwork? Source → (via Reuters)
🕰️ Workplace Time Capsule — Equal Pay, 1968
Our final Time Capsule segment takes us back to 1968, where journalist Fyfe Robertson visits a cigarette factory to report on the movement for equal pay for women. Sixty years on, the arguments feel both dated and eerily familiar — a reminder of how far we've come, and how much work remains.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Leading a more experienced team: "I just got promoted to manage a team that's older and more experienced than me. How do I lead without seeming insecure or bossy?"
- Disagreeing with your boss: "Should I voice disagreements in a meeting, or bring it up afterwards?"
- PTO guilt: "I own a business in financial services. My employees feel guilty about taking their PTO days. How do I fix that?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplaces.
Al ElliottYes. Welcome back. This is, uh, still part of August. Uh, so we are still on the one episode a week. If you remember, we took a break in August. Uh, so we, we've put the interview— normally we do a Tuesday episode, which is This Week in Work. We do news roundup, which is this one. And then we do a Thursday episode, which is an interview one. They're coming back next week because it's September next week. I can't really I believe it's September, but anyway.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's gone quick. So yeah, normal scheduling will, will resume next week. Um, but before we launch into the news roundup, Al, I believe that we have made it.
Al ElliottWhat do you mean we've made it?
Leanne ElliottUm, I'm getting trolled on YouTube.
Al ElliottTrolled?
Leanne ElliottTrolled's a strong word. I was looking at our YouTube today, um, we've had some new subscribers. Hi, nice to see you. Um, but that does mean we're getting some feedback, and some of it is not always very positive. Um, so for example, Oliver Warmflash commented, both hosts need speech therapy, talk about mumbling.
Al ElliottPiss off, Oliver, whatever your name is.
Leanne ElliottI would try to enunciate. I wonder if it's my, um, slightly northern twang that he's not into. But, uh, I have, I have asked if that's the reason. I'll let you know if he replies. Um, and then I had personally, I think you're, I think you're getting there. I think I'm, I'm at the point where I am, I'm succeeding because I'm getting trolled more than you are.
Al ElliottOh, right, really?
Leanne ElliottUm, yeah. Um, so, um, this person said, Stephen Toomey, um, this was on your interview with Rory Sutherland. Great guest. Leanne lets the side down though.
Al ElliottOh, I mean, he's not wrong.
Leanne ElliottWell, no.
Al ElliottBut be a little bit more specific there. What was his name again?
Leanne ElliottUm, Steve Toomey.
Al ElliottSteve, to me. Steve, Steve, to me, to you, to me, to you. Let me— let us know, how does she let you let the side down? She's the clever one here.
Leanne ElliottI've already asked the question, you know, what would you have liked to have seen or heard instead? So yeah, we are getting some more comments. Some are constructive, some are funny, some are really heartwarming actually, particularly on our mental health episodes. Keep them coming. My only request would be if you're going to be a little bit salty, and you know I like salty, so So don't be afraid to be salty. Just give us some context and why, some what we could do better. Um, we like a bit of constructive feedback around it.
Al ElliottWell, yeah, well, Rory's interview, we got some feedback saying get to the guest, guys. And so we changed the way we did things. Um, so yeah, if you tell us why Leanne's let this— let the side down, then we can maybe— I can maybe replace her. We've got 2 dogs down here, so maybe we could put one of them with some headphones on one of them and see if they'll do a better job. Anyway, I believe Leanne That trolling is not your favourite time of the week, but it is your favourite time of the week right now. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt is time for the news roundup. Al, cue the jingle.
Al ElliottOkay, Le, what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottUm, well, aside from being trolled on YouTube, I have seen a new word.
Al ElliottA new word. We like a new word. Go ahead.
Leanne ElliottMenowashing.
Al ElliottOh God, that sounds so grim. I think I know what it is, but go on.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I, I, I, I get it. It's coming from like greenwashing, wellness washing, keeping on that trend. Menowashing, um, but it does sound a little bit odd. If you haven't heard of it, menowashing refers to the practice of brands slapping the word menopause on products to cash in on the increasing demand, often without much science to back up their claims. So this is according to Kathy Abernethy, who you may remember, who has been on the show.
Al ElliottWe love Kathy.
Leanne ElliottKathy was extraordinary. She's a leading menopause specialist with more than 25 years of clinical experience. Um, as I said, a previous guest, she weighed in on the issue in a very brilliantly written article in The Telegraph.
Al ElliottKathy, how the hell do we get in The Telegraph? Email us.
Leanne ElliottNot about you, Al, it's about Kathy. Honestly, get to the guests, guys. Uh, what is wonderful, um, and I know Kathy agrees, is that menopause is now part of the conversation, in particular in the last 5 years. Um, so that's wonderful, but that does mean that more and more products are hitting the shelves claiming to ease menopausal symptoms. But we have to ask the question, are they really worth it, or are we being exploited by clever marketing people? Al, um, I can't wait to hear your opinion on this one. Let's run through some of the menopause-related products that are trending right now. First one, and I actually had to double-check that this one was right because it sounded like a joke, um, but apparently not— menopause-friendly chocolate. Yeah, so, um, so Holland and Barrett apparently have been selling menopause almonds, which are essentially chocolate-covered almonds marketed as a mood booster during menopause. Unsurprisingly, Cathy wasn't very impressed by this. She sees this as a prime example of menowashing, calling it patronizing and profiteering. Yes, chocolate can lift your mood, and depending on the type of chocolate, has been shown to have lots of other, other health benefits. Um, but we don't really need an overpriced branded almond, um, I don't think, to get that benefit. So Kathy's advice: skip the gimmicks and focus on a balanced diet with plenty of calcium. Calcium and a Mediterranean approach apparently is particularly beneficial during menopause. Next, the booming supplement industry. So the global menopause supplement market is expected to hit $22.7 billion by 2028.
Al ElliottCan I just ask, you know when they do predictions like that, $22.7 billion, Why bother doing 0.7? Because it's, it's what, it's 4 years ago, 4 years away. You might as well just go 22 billion anyway.
Leanne ElliottOr round up.
Al ElliottRound up. Yeah, almost 23 billion.
Leanne ElliottBut yes, Kathy warns that not all supplements are created equal. I think we all know at this point that vitamin D is very good for us. I think it found its place during the pandemic, essential for bone health. Um, I believe it boosts your immunity as well. But other supplements that have been marketed as menopause specific often lack scientific backing. Um, so again, Kathy urges women to be cautious and do their homework. Don't just fall for the marketing hype. And finally, skincare. Um, I mean, menopause is a bitch. Menopause also, um, causes our skin to become drier and lose collagen, um, which is something that makes it nice and plump and puffy. Um, many women of course reach for those labels, um, specifically for aging skin or menopausal skin. But as Kathy points out, many of these products have been around for years Um, under labels such as mature anti-wrinkle. And her tip is to actually look at what works for your skin. And if you do one thing, wear SPF every day. Um, so yeah, I mean, in terms of, of Kathy's article, I thought it was really brilliantly written and actually brings a really important point to, to what we're hearing in the conversation around menopause, which, as I said, the conversation is great, but with that comes lots of misinformation. Kathy's final word on that is to be cautious around, uh, things we see on social media. She admits that celebrities are doing a great job of raising awareness, but they are not always experts. It is easy to get caught up in trends promoted by influencers. She advises sticking to advice from qualified professionals. Social media can be a great tool, but it's not a substitute for real medical guidance, which includes this podcast as well. Um, and with that, any— anything else where influencers might be, such as people and culture. Um, so overall, I think, I think it's a really interesting, interesting conversation we're seeing, and I'm, I'm pleased to see this angle coming from Kathy. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottYeah, anything Kathy says, I'm on board with. She knows what she's talking about. Um, from the marketing entrepreneurial angle, I can kind of see why you might want to do— I mean, like, we have 2 dogs, uh, they're both street dogs, uh, we adopted them both, uh, but then we have a specific type of food for one and a specific type of food for the other. I'm pretty sure it's the same stuff, just in a different shape.
Leanne ElliottYeah, if you are new to this conversation, if you are like me and you're in your late 30s, quickly approaching 40, uh, I will leave a link to— we did an episode probably about a year ago on like an introduction to women's health, which included Kathy and 2 other extraordinary guests as well. I will leave a link to that in the show notes. A really good place to start where you can find an expert who is also an influencer, which is what we like. Al, what have you seen?
Al ElliottOkay, so if you can hear me over the snoring of the little dog, then I saw a great tweet by Rob Dance, which is @RobDance_ on X, almost 100,000 views. And it simply said, when I talk to managers, I get the feeling they're important. When I talk to leaders, I get the feeling I'm important. I thought that was really cool. And there wasn't a huge number of comments on this, but I think those people who did comment were saying titles aren't that important. Uh, if, if you believe that you're important because you're a manager— we've talked before about that person who sits on a train, opens their laptop, and then starts screaming down the, down the phone to make themselves look important. They're just knobs, aren't they? Uh, but this kind of like, it's a really nice simple description. Um, of course, great managers are the same as great leaders. So great managers make everyone else feel important. They fall into that first camp. But I feel like it's a brilliant way to remind yourself of your job. Just a real simple sort of like, just, oh yeah, yeah, who am I making feeling important in this conversation? Pretty sure you're going to have some thoughts on this, Leanne. If you want to feel important, then you're likely a bad manager. You've made it all about you. If you want others to feel important, then you're probably a great manager and a real leader. I've learned so much from Leanne about all this, and she calls it the sort of inverting the org chart. Well, she doesn't call it that. I've called it that. Yeah. You've had a word there. I'm the marketing guy, and I've just come up with a fancy name for it. But the idea is that, that you kind of turn it upside down. So the managers and the leaders at the very bottom, and then it works its way up to the sort of the frontline staff and the people actually doing the important job. The idea behind the whole thing of that is that you're really there to support the person above you. So if you're a manager, your job is to support the people who are in your team. If you're a senior manager, your job is to support the managers. And if you are an owner or senior leadership, your job is to support there, or the next one up. Leanne, have I understood that correctly? Is that— I mean, I know you never use that phrase, but is that kind of the idea?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, you know, all we've talked about this so many times before, but all the data that's coming out shows that managers are— they have the single biggest impact on employee performance, wellbeing, engagement. It really is absolutely critical. And I think it's with anything, you know, if you think about a coach, coaching football teams. It's there to enable and empower and, and provide resources and expertise when needed, of course, but really just to facilitate their own performance. So it's the same thing, really. I think that the, the question I would say, if you're thinking about, I'm, you know, going for that next management position, or if you're a manager and you're kind of thinking, I don't know what my motivations are, is just reflect on why you wanted to be a manager in the first place. I know For me, there was definitely a sense of ambition, and there's nothing wrong with that either. We can have ambition and want to progress into management. But my main reason was I was tired of looking around me and seeing people do a bad job and thinking I could do this better, or feeling put down by my manager, or barriers put up. My job was being made harder by my manager, not made easier, which didn't make sense to me. So, that was why. I just wanted to try and see if I could do a better job. But yeah, I think it comes down to empathy. There's so much in the research around that. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm here for it.
Al ElliottIf you want to learn a bit more about management, or you even might even want to be coached by Leanne as a manager, then, uh, check out the show notes. There's ways to get in touch with us and we can make that happen. Lee, finally, is there anything else you've seen? I'm pretty sure there is.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I've got some news from Down Under. This is hot off the press.
Al ElliottAntipodean news.
Leanne ElliottYeah, sure. As of yesterday, the 26th of August, 2024, 2024, Australian workers now have a new legal right that is really set to change how the country might think about work-life balance. Um, you know how it is, unwanted texts from a boss or a colleague over the weekend. I know you all have emails coming through once you've logged off. I'm really bad for that. Well, if you are in Australia, you can now officially ignore those after-work interruptions. So it's after-hour interruptions. That's right, a new right to disconnect law has come into force, giving employees the power to switch off from work once they've left for the day without fear of repercussions. So what does this mean in practice? Well, essentially it means that in most cases, employees cannot be punished for refusing to read or respond to work-related emails, texts, or calls outside of their contracted hours. Supporters of the law argue that this is a huge win for workers, particularly in a world where the line between work and home life has become increasingly blurred. John Hopkins is an associate professor at Swinburne University of Technology, and he said, before we had digital technology, there was no encroachment, meaning people would go home at the end of a shift and that was it. Now globally, it's become the norm to have emails and calls outside of those hours even on holiday. And that equates to about $130 billion Australian dollars worth of unpaid labor. So with the introduction of this law, Australia joins around 2 dozen other countries, mostly in Europe and Latin America, that have similar protections in place. France, for example, was one of the first countries to pioneer this back in 2017. And France has also taken a pretty, pretty firm approach and fined companies for not respecting these boundaries. But as with any law, there are some nuances. For instance, the rule still allows employers to contact workers in emergencies or if the job requires irregular hours. However, employees can refuse to respond where it's reasonable to do so. Determining what's reasonable will be up to the Fair Work Commission, apparently, um, which considers factors like employee role and personal circumstances. And of course, not everyone is thrilled about the change. The Australian Industry Group, an employer organization, has voiced concerns that the law's ambiguity could lead to confusion and reduced workplace flexibility, potentially slowing down the economy. They argue that the law was introduced with minimal consultation and has left employees scrambling to adapt. On the other hand, the Australian Council of Trade Unions believe the law strikes the right balance. What do we think, Al?
Al ElliottIt's probably all down to how it's enforced, isn't it? Now it's law, it means that someone has got some redress Um, it's probably not— it's, it's a bit like speed limits, isn't it? For most people, they will just stay within the law. Uh, for some people, they will willfully, um, ignore the law and go faster. And for a small percentage of people, they will accidentally break the law by going faster without realizing they were. So I think it's kind of a similar thing. The— I feel sorry for the people who either haven't heard of this yet— this is the employers— haven't heard of this yet, or someone who thinks, um, well, I can't— I need to contact Derek to find find out what— how we turn off this machine because it's been going on all night, and then goes, I can't do it because, you know, because of this law. So it feels like— it feels very much like it's a good step in the direction. But going back to the Working Time Directive, which was, what, back in the '90s, where it made sure that no one could work over 38 hours a week or something like that, there are people who had to sign for— as part of their job, they had to sign to say, no, I will work as a pub manager when I was back the day, I— it was part of my contract to sign saying that didn't apply to me. So I think that it's probably a good thing, but then those people who— those nefarious managers will probably just create jobs that the condition of the employment is that you sign that we contact you after hours. So I don't think it's going to make it— it's a bit like speed limits, not going to make a massive difference to those people who willfully want to ignore it and willfully want to break it. But it probably will be good for those people who don't want to accidentally break it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I, I had to sign one of those agreements as well when I worked in hospitality. Yeah, I agree, it's a really interesting, interesting, um, attempt, isn't it? I think there's good intention there. We'll see how it all pans out.
Al ElliottSo there you have it, that is the news roundup. If you've seen a story that you'd like us to react to, to talk about, uh, then just tag us in @TruthLiesAndWork on all the major channels, major platforms, um, or you can send an email. If you check out our show notes, you'll see the email and you'll be able to email us directly.
Leanne ElliottLee, I think you've got something special for Yes, moving on, it is time for our Week Place Time Capsule and our final time capsule. Yes, our August segment has come to an end, but if you do like this, let us know, we might bring it back in the future. So this week I have a genuinely, genuinely fascinating video from the BBC archive, um, and a programme called 24 Hours that was originally broadcast in 1960.
Al ElliottOh, wow.
Leanne ElliottIn the clip, we see journalist Fife Robertson visit a cigarette factory to report on the movement to get equal pay for women, including how factory workers feel about it.
Al ElliottThis is originally from the BBC Archive YouTube channel, which is a brilliant place to go and watch old stuff. Uh, the link is in the show notes. Victims of industrial apartheid. Second-class citizens, cheap labour and child miners.
Leanne ElliottThat is how women like these have been described by ardent fighters for what Barbara Castle has called this elementary piece of justice—
Al Elliottequal pay for women.
Leanne ElliottThat's a fine emotive phrase, but what does it mean to you, to Mrs.
Al ElliottCastle, to employers, to trade union leaders, to women workers themselves?
Leanne ElliottBy one definition, the granting of equal pay would mean nothing at all to these women and millions of others. The Confederation of British Industry— that is, employers— prefer the less costly kind of equal pay enforced now in the European Common Market countries: equal pay for the same work. Men don't do the job these women are doing.
Al ElliottLifting and Packing cigarettes made by machines looked after by men has always been a woman's job.
Leanne ElliottHow then could you ensure a just reward in an equal pay framework for women doing jobs that men don't do?
Al ElliottBy choosing the other and costlier definition of equal pay, the International Labour Office definition favoured by the TUC: equal pay for work of equal value. And that, of course, would mean a huge, controversial, and inevitably lengthy process of job evaluation.
Leanne ElliottBut it would seem to most people shown it to be the only fair way to end sex discrimination in pay, which means that the average earnings of women in industry are about half the men's average, that of fully employed women half earn less than £10 a week. And 2 million of them earn less than £6 a week.
Al Elliott2 out of 3 working women are married.
Leanne ElliottAs well as essential jobs in industry, they do a still more essential job: bearing and rearing the citizens of tomorrow's world. A man from the moon might conclude that as industrial workers as well, they should in justice get not equal pay but more pay. Most of our voters are women. A third of our workers are women.
Al ElliottReally, if they wanted to, the women could dominate union policy, couldn't they?
Leanne ElliottWe've been trying to do this for quite a long while.
Al ElliottBut how have you failed if you're in a majority of membership? Well, what we—
Leanne Elliottwell, what I always think is it's a man's world and they expect us to live in it. But now they're beginning to realise that women really mean what they say, and it's this victim mentality. Well, what is the official union attitude on equal job opportunities for women? Well, when you go for a job to— when women go for jobs, it shouldn't be that this is a job for women and this is a job for men. It should be these are the jobs vacant.
Al ElliottIt's kind of weird looking back because what's that, 60, 70 years ago? Some of the stuff that they're saying seems, even to us as a male, it seems quite outrageous. There is one bit which I don't think is in part of the video, but I did watch a bit further on because it was quite fascinating. And there's a, there's this guy who's surrounded by all the women and he's saying, and, um, and the interviewer's saying, so what do you think about women in the, in the workplace? Do you think they should have equal pay? And you can see him looking sideways going, oh bugger, what am I going to say here? But apart from that, the serious message here, it seems so foreign to us, doesn't it, that this was something that was even in discussion a while back.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think it, I think it does highlight how far we've come. And I know that there's some Some people out there that find that, that claim frustrating. Um, but let's, let's take a quick look at actually what has happened since the 1960s in terms of key milestones in the UK for employment law and for women. So the Equal Pay Act did come in 1970, but that was a direct result of the Ford sewing machinist strike. Uh, they made it illegal to pay women less than men for the same work, laying the groundwork for gender pay equality. Then came the Sex Discrimination Act of 1975, making it unlawful to discriminate based on sex or marital status and introducing the Equal Opportunities Commission to enforce these protections. The same year, the Employment Protection Act introduced maternity leave rights, supporting working mothers for the first time. Then in 1983, the Equal Pay Amendment allowed women to claim equal pay for work of equal value, even if it wasn't identical. And I think this was a key kind of question and conversation that was had in that, that video, wasn't it, in terms of if it's not identical, men and women do different jobs, equal value, um, was kind of the key there. And that was 1983, uh, that came in, which might sound like a long, long time ago, kids, but that was a year before I was born. So very much, you know, if you're in your 30s, in our lifetime. And then the Equality Act of 2010, that really did unify and strengthen anti-discrimination laws and provide more robust protection against discrimination based on sex, pregnancy, and maternity. It's really interesting. And of course, we're still having conversations about the gender pay gap, violence against women, um, and equally, you know, the, the unacceptable state of men's mental health, particularly in the UK, the suicide rate amongst men. I think it's a case of, as we move forward, addressing that there are gender differences for, for men and women and all genders, but with that, what we can do to improve the rights of each individual gender and for everyone as a society. So yes, I think it's cool to look back and see how far we've come. I don't think that should distract too much from how far we still have to go. But equally, it's wild, isn't it, that conversations were happening like that in our parents' lifetime, in my parents' lifetime. It's a lot of progress over the last 60 years.
Al ElliottIf you've got any thoughts on this, then jump on LinkedIn, find Leanne, talk to her. There'll be a post about this on LinkedIn. Uh, just tell us what your thoughts are. Tell us what your memories are. If you're a little bit older and you remember actually, you know, perhaps you employed people back in this time, mind you, would you still be around? I think you probably would, wouldn't you? Yeah, you would. Um, if you, if you experienced that, then just let us know on LinkedIn. I think it'd be really interesting to hear someone who's, uh, hear from someone who's actually had that experience. Okay, coming up after this very short break, we have got the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Do not go anywhere.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agents to fake their fandom. To create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoy Can balsamic vinegar make beer taste better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Okay, welcome back to the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery. This is where I put your questions to Leanne. So we've got 3 questions that I'm going to put to Leanne, and you're going to hear her thoughts on them. thoughts. Just from— just a reminder, in case you didn't hear from the beginning, she is a chartered occupational psychologist, so she is qualified to answer all of these. All right, Lee, are you ready for question number 1?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottSo this person writes, here's the deal. I just got promoted to manage a team that's a little bit older and a little bit more experienced than I am. Don't get me wrong, they're great at what they do, but I'm feeling a little out of my depth. How do I lead a team that knows the job better than I do without coming across as insecure or on the flip side too bossy? And they put in brackets, I'd love to hear some practical examples of what I should say and perhaps what I shouldn't. Does all that make sense, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottIt does. And I think this is, this is a really— we can be very practical in solving this problem. My first thought is on that first day, whether it be— I don't know what your circumstances are, whether you're face to face, whether you're on remote on Zoom, try and get everyone together just for a very short meeting and say, hey, I'm really excited to be, you know, your new manager. I fully appreciate that you are the experts here. You have much more experience, technical experience in these roles than I do and how things work. Um, but my job is to make this, this workplace, you know, even better and help you do your jobs even better and easier and remove those barriers. So to do that, what I'd realize to do is just sit down with you on a one-to-one for an hour and just talk. Talk about things that you think are working well, things that are working horribly, things that are frustrating, things that have annoyed you for years, things that you need, resources, things you want to change. Nothing is off the table. Of course, there will be practicalities around the resources that you have available as a manager, and be transparent about that, but nothing is off the table in terms of moaning. And I think that's it. Let people get out their frustrations, then start to, to work with them in the latter half that meeting to come up with solutions, what would they do? What would you do if you were me? What would you do? What was the first thing you would change? What's the first thing you change in month 1, month 2, month 3? Get your team to basically write your action plan for you. Then go to your manager, go, look, these are the things that we want to do as a team. Find out what's possible. Don't make any assumptions. You never know. Um, that's what I'd say, because it's that empathic concern is going to breed trust. It's gonna It's going to open up communication. It's going to show that you want to operate in a transparent way. And I think really it should also, as I say, give you those ideas and actions that you need to prioritise and implement over your first 90 days as a manager.
Al ElliottI think I liken it a little bit to doing sort of, if you're creating a new product, and this is coming from my marketing brain, but if you create a new product, then you'd go out and ask your audience, ask the customer what they want from the product rather than just creating it and going and pushing out and going, ta-da, ready, do you want to buy it? This sort of feels like it's a, um, what's the word when you both work together on something? What's that word?
Leanne ElliottCollaborate.
Al ElliottCollaborative way to build a great role as a great boss. Are you ready for question number 2?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottOkay, so this person writes, how do you handle disagreeing with your boss in a meeting? I've got some strong opinions, but I'm not sure if it's okay to speak up or if I should just nod along and keep my thoughts to myself. I don't want to come across as confrontational or worse, jeopardise my relationship with my boss. So would it be better to bring up my thoughts after the meeting, or should I try and handle it right there in the moment? Am I being weak by not bringing them up? Am I being a bit defensive and strong by trying to muscle in on the meeting? Leanne, this sounds like a bit of a tough one.
Leanne ElliottYeah, this is a really tricky one, isn't it? Because you don't want to be disrespectful to your manager, and you don't want to potentially do anything that's going to have negative repercussions on you. I think the key here, my first thought would be to go to your manager one-to-one and just have a general conversation around it, that when you're— I'm in a meeting, if there's something that I disagree with, how do you want me to constructively challenge that idea, politely challenge that idea, and then provide an example. So for example, you said this in the meeting yesterday, I actually thought this was a better approach, this was why. In the future, how would you like me to approach that type of constructive feedback? and see how your manager reacts. Hopefully you've got a great manager who's going to be really open to that. If you don't have a great manager, then you might have to prepare yourself that, that there'll be a bit of defensiveness about that. But I think as long as you're very polite, very constructive, um, go with an example, hopefully your manager will respond in, in a positive way. If you do have a great manager, um, or indeed a great team that you get on with, one thing that can be really helpful for teams is to agree these expectations, agree these behaviors. How do we constructively challenge each other if we disagree? How do we question an idea to dig deeper and find a more refined solution? And it's questions like that that you'll ask and answer as part of an exercise to create a team charter. And that can seem a really formal way of dealing with what should be quite an organic human interaction experience. But actually, it's understanding those rules and expectations that It means that we can be our authentic selves. We know how to respond in a situation where we think something's not right. And over time, allows us to really embed those desirable behaviors so they will become more organic, they will become natural. And that's culture. Because as we know, the definition of culture, our favorite definition of culture, is it's defined by the worst behaviors tolerated. Right now, the behavior that's tolerated is you being silent. Because you're not being given a framework to talk about how to disagree constructively in that type of environment. If you're silenced, you're going to suppress your opinions. That's going to mask some of the thoughts that you have, potentially mean that you don't bring your full authentic self to work. You're going to lack that sense of belonging over time, and you could disengage and leave the company. So, something really simple is, if there's any managers listening, something really simple in terms of agreeing how do we constructively challenge each other can actually prevent a whole domino effect of potential future disengagement. So, that would be my thoughts. Have that one-to-one conversation first. I wouldn't suggest that you challenge your manager in the meeting initially. I would go to them with that and see what they say. And, If you don't feel comfortable going to your manager one-to-one, if you really don't have that relationship, maybe just get a couple of your colleagues together and say, how do you think we should, um, we should do this if we, we disagree with each other? Just starting the conversation about how that, that should be done would, would be a good start. But my thought would be is if you can have that conversation with your manager first of all, that would be the best place to start.
Al ElliottBrilliant as always. Um, there's also something which— a phrase which I would have thought 2 years ago before I started doing this Leanne, uh, that it was a bit of a faff word, a bit of a buzzword, but now I've learned that it actually means something. Psychological safety. Um, if you feel like you can't, you can't speak up and disagree, then that means, generally speaking, that you're— you haven't got the psychological safety in your workplace. Um, which might be fine if all you're doing is pushing emails between each other, or perhaps doing a little bit of creative or something, but it would be really serious if you were in, say, medicine.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBecause then if you disagreed with your boss about a treatment plan, for example, and you didn't feel like you could say anything, that could potentially be quite dangerous. So obviously we don't know what, what area or what type of business you're in, but the fact is that if you've not got the psychological safety to, to say that you disagree with something, then it could be much more than just a team charter. The team charter could probably help massively, but it sounds like it might be a little bit more endemic than that, and it might be time to, to think a bit more about that phrase psychological safety. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think at this point it's, it's not knowing, isn't it? It might be that you have this conversation with a manager and you find out, you realize you do have psychological safety. But these things are intentional. And it's the same for any manager listening, thinking, of course people have psychological safety, they know that they can tell me anything. Do you actively encourage them to do that? Do you give them a framework to do that? Do you give them a platform to do that? Without that intentionality, sometimes people don't know they've got psychological safety. And, and by not knowing they have it, Effectively, they don't have it. So yeah, good point on that, Al.
Al ElliottAre you ready for question number 3, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottOkay. So this person writes, I own a medium-sized business in the financial services sector. Now, this is quite interesting because it's linked very much to, I think, what you were talking about with Australia that's happened yesterday. I am committed to creating a great workplace, but there's something I've been struggling with. My employees seem to feel guilty about taking their PTO days, just in case anyone doesn't know, that's personal time off. Even though I'm totally supportive of them taking the time off. I want them to recharge, but I keep hearing things like, I'll just take a few days instead of a full week, or I'll be checking emails while I'm out. How do I encourage them to use their vacation days without guilt and ensure they really do disconnect? To be honest, I do tend to stay connected even on my days off, and they probably notice that. So should I make it a point to discuss this openly, maybe implement a policy. I don't want to feel— this is a key phrase— I just don't want them to feel like they're letting the team down by taking the time they've earned. This sounds like a thoroughly nice leader/owner/manager, doesn't it?
Leanne ElliottIt does, it does. Heart is in the right place, action slightly off. First thing, don't check in. If you have a day off, you have a day off. You set that example. As much as leaders set examples, in the workplace. They set examples when they're out of the workplace. Don't log on to your email, don't answer any calls. You're not available, you're on holiday, you're off. That in itself will, will give that role model of behavior to the people in, in your team. Secondly, I would be inclined to do a bit of digging. Yes, you can put in a policy. Yes, we can encourage people to take leave. I do a bit of digging as to why people don't feel they can take time off. And more than likely, it's going to come down to workload, a lack of trust in colleagues to be able to cover work, or a feeling that if they do take their full holiday, they're going to negatively— it's going to negatively impact their development within the company and progression within the company somehow. It sounds like the third one isn't true from what you've said. So, it sounds like it's maybe something that's going on with workload or relationships within the business.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, that's just going to require a bit of digging. One-to-ones is probably a really good informal way to start, particularly if you know the people that are saying, oh, just take a few days instead of a full week, and just really dig down into the reasons of it. Of course, you can do, you know, if you've got a really great engagement survey, it's going to ask those questions anyway about annual leave. But I think, yeah, a one-to-one conversation is probably a really good place to start. In terms of a policy, There's different ways you can do it, and ultimately policy is brought in to drive some type of behavioural change, but it's only going to really be possible to drive that behavioural change if you've got an environment in which that, that new behaviour is going to work adequately. If you don't have the trust within your team, then figuring out this really sexy handoff, handover process is probably going to fall down because there's not that trust initially that, that this person can look after my clients or my work whilst I'm away. So really the policy is going to be building on figuring out what this— what we'd call psychosocial factors influencing people's feelings or thinking around being able to take time off effectively. Um, but yeah, in terms of, in terms of policy, you can force people to take their annual leave, use it or lose it. Um, you can try— you can bring that in in terms of a quarter. Everyone has to take it, take it off over a quarter. Changing the narrative around people who do take time off, in that when you bring this policy in— so for example, you bring in this policy, you have to use at least 5 days holiday every quarter in whatever combination of, of, you know, pattern that you want to. And if you don't, you are letting the team down because you're not taking the appropriate time to rest and recover, to come back full of energy where we need you to be, firing on all cylinders, whatever cheesy analogy you want to use. Um, it's flipping the framing. So, you're not letting the team down by taking holiday, you're letting the team down by not taking your holidays. And again, it's that messaging that's going to drive the cultural and behavioural change that you're going to need. Um, but yeah, you're gonna have to figure out what's, what's occurring first for, for then that really great, great policy and messaging to work.
Al ElliottWhen you were talking there, it occurred to me, these people are saying to you, I'll just take a few days instead of a full week, or I'll I'll be checking on emails when I'm out. That sounds to me like either they want to ingratiate themselves with you— that's gracious, not the right word— but kind of like to prove to you that they're working hard, or they're slightly fearful because they're not saying it to them, to each other, that you're hearing it. And they're probably— you're probably hearing it for a very good reason, because they want you to know that they are doing extra, extra work out of time. We have no way of knowing what the, um, what the incentive for doing that is for each of each of your individuals. But just something to think about— why would they want you to know that they're putting in 110%, 115%? Usually it's because they are fearful of what you think if they didn't, or more, more likely, they see, see you putting in 115% and think that that's what they want to do, or that's what they have to do.
Leanne ElliottYeah, but you know, you can't tie yourself up in knots asking yourself these questions and trying to answer them. That's why I said, you know, you need to get in there and understand the fact that are influencing these, these behaviours and really understand why people have these motivations. It could be from you, it could be from another reason, it could be from a whole host of things. So yeah, I think that's the key, isn't it? Do get— use your curiosity, your kindness and curiosity to figure out what's going on.
Al ElliottOtherwise, it sounds like you are on your way to building an amazing workplace culture. So well done, you. I think that's the end And Leanne, is there anything you want to add?
Leanne ElliottNo, we will be back again next Tuesday. As we said, normal scheduling resumes. We'll be back next Tuesday with our first This Week in Work episode for September, and we will be bringing you our first expert guest of September and of the, the autumn/winter season. It's a really, really good one. I'd normally say a cheese, but this time I might say it's a candy. Get it?
Al ElliottI get it. I don't think anyone else will apart from potentially Jamie. Anyway, so we will see you next week. If you haven't subscribed, if you're on YouTube, click subscribe. It does help. What fun fact, if you are thinking of doing YouTube channel yourself, we've been doing for about a year and a bit now, and we are seeing more people have probably watched our stuff in the last month than they have probably in the previous 9 months. So keep going, keep going. But if you want to help us to, to improve our YouTube channel, to improve our reach, then click subscribe, like the video, leave us a comment. And as we said at the beginning, if you don't like something we're doing, let us know, ideally with, with specifics, not just you're British and got bad teeth. Give me something specific we can build on. But, um, yeah, we'd love to hear from you.
Leanne ElliottAnd again, Steve, I'm really sorry I let the side down. I will try and do better. I just need your feedback to tell me, tell me what I can do. I look forward to your letters.
Al ElliottPoor Leanne. She— I'm gonna wake up 3 o'clock in the morning tonight and I'm gonna hear her. I can hear Leanne sobbing and that's your fault.
Leanne ElliottSteve, why? That's fine.
Al ElliottWe will see you all next week. Thanks for listening. Bye-bye. Bye. It's kind of weird, uh, looking back because I'm gonna do that again.
Leanne ElliottBut I think it's, you know, best not to say that actually, because I should be familiar with what it was.
Al ElliottPretty sure you've got some thoughts on this, Lan. Leanne. Lan?
Leanne ElliottLan?
Al ElliottI need some speech therapy. Are you ready for question number 2?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIt's not question number 2, it's question number 3.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottPerhaps they are trying to Well, what the hell happened there? I just got balloons popped up on my screen.
Leanne ElliottEqually, so Kathy said, yes, vitamin T, essential bone health.
Al ElliottVitamin T?
Leanne ElliottWhat's that? Sorry, sorry, let's do it again. I thought I said D. This is what you were saying about mumbling.
Al ElliottMumble, mumble, mumble. D. His interview was the one— was the main ep— do all that again.
Leanne ElliottLet me just do all that again.
Al ElliottNo, I thought that was really good.
Leanne ElliottShite. Come on, Bobby Bean.
Al ElliottMove out, Bobby Bean. Go on then.
Leanne ElliottGo, go, go, go, go on.
Al ElliottNo, no, no, no, no.