Episode 324 · 4 August 2026 · 59:01
Workplace Red Flag or Green Flag? Summer Sessions #2, with Meghan French-Dunbar
Featuring Meghan French-Dunbar
Workplace Red Flag or Green Flag? Summer Sessions #2, with Meghan French-Dunbar
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Intro — Summer Sessions & how the game works
Round 1 — Recruiting almost entirely through employee referrals
Round 2 — The office dog on the org chart (with their own email address)
Round 3 — Nobody gets an office, including the CEO
interview#office#ceo#workplace
Round 4 — Complete salary transparency
Round 5 — Bonuses for "token maxing"
interview#bonuses#token-maxing#incentives
Round 6 — Friday karaoke parties
interview#karaoke#friday#team-building
Round 7 — Unlimited holidays
Round 8 — Pink ice cream makers for International Women's Day
interview#international-womens-day#ice-cream#gender-equality
Round 9 — "We're like a family here"
interview#family#company-culture#workplace
Round 10 — The manager who says "I don't know"
interview#manager#leadership#honesty
Round 11 — The CEO who interviews every candidate
interview#ceo#interview#hiring
Bonus debate — Undercover Boss & Zingerman's
Final round — The best spreadsheet of the month trophy
interview#spreadsheet#trophy#recognition
Final flags — the biggest green flags of all
interview#green-flags#culture#leadership
Show notes
Workplace Red Flag or Green Flag? The Summer Sessions Game — with Meghan French-Dunbar
Guest: Meghan French-Dunbar — author of This Isn't Working, speaker, and host of the Unbehaved podcast.
Welcome to Summer Sessions! Every August we take a break from the news roundups and deep dives to bring you something lighter — the kind of episode to enjoy on a summer walk, a long drive, or a beach where you're absolutely not checking your emails.
This week Al and Leanne are joined by author, speaker and host of the Unbehaved podcast, Meghan French-Dunbar (MFD!), to put some of the biggest workplace behaviours, leadership advice and organisational trends to the test in a fast-paced game of Workplace Red Flag or Green Flag? Al reads out the situation — from unlimited PTO and salary transparency to office dogs with email addresses and "we're like a family" — and Leanne and Meghan call it: red flag, green flag, or (Meghan's format-ruining invention) blue flag.
No right answers, plenty of strong opinions. Play along as each one comes up — make your call before they reveal theirs.
🚩 The Game: Workplace Red Flag or Green Flag?
From unlimited PTO and salary transparency to reception-wall values and office dogs, we debate the unwritten rules of work — and challenge whether the things we accept as "normal" are actually helping or hurting workplace culture.
The Verdicts
Employee referrals — RED. Meghan's instant read: referrals tend to be friends and family, which "perpetuates the homogenized culture" and makes genuine diversity of thought hard. Leanne agrees — unless referrals still go through a robust, objective recruitment process, which few organisations actually have. Meghan's own startup story (hiring friends at Conscious Company Media until she looked around at employee 10 and saw a completely homogenous team) is a masterclass in hindsight.
The office dog with an email address — BLUE (it depends). Meghan: "I would work with a dog in my lap all day, every day." Leanne (a three-dog owner!): allergies, fear, hygiene — it depends on the intention and whether everyone's comfortable. Cats, on the other hand: unanimous red flag. "They're very sly."
Nobody gets an office, including the CEO — RED. Meghan: a full-time work-from-office mandate is a huge red flag that shuts out working parents, carers and people with different abilities — and as someone with ADHD, a wide-open floor plan is her nightmare. Leanne agrees: the research on open-plan offices and productivity (for neurodivergent and neurotypical people alike) is not kind.
Complete salary transparency — GREEN. Leanne: transparency saves candidates weeks of wasted recruitment time and should be the default anyway. Meghan takes it further — open-book management, where workers see how the organisation actually works and performs, is the natural next step. Even Al, who came in convinced it was a red flag, concedes: "Just because it's hard doesn't mean you shouldn't do it."
Bonuses for "token maxing" — RED. A real company bonuses the employee who uses the most AI tokens in a month. Leanne: quantity over quality — what behaviour are you actually incentivising? Meghan: it breeds internal competition and "garbage cultures over the long term" — she'd rather see bonuses for every human in the organisation tied to top-line growth. We succeed together.
Friday karaoke parties — RED. Optional, but... "Forced fun isn't fun," says Leanne. It doesn't account for parents, carers, or anyone who'd rather not be the person on the mic on a Friday afternoon.
Unlimited holidays — BLUE, with caveats. Meghan's greenish: unlimited PTO is a green flag if (and only if) the culture actually supports people taking time off — like the founder she interviewed for her book who asked her team how to spend a surplus, and got "unlimited PTO and vacation matching" back. Leanne's bluish: it's not actually unlimited, and younger-career employees are more reluctant to take time off without clear norms. Her alternative: a generous allowance with an explicit "we expect you to take 100% of your holiday" message.
Pink ice cream makers for International Women's Day — RED (three chilis). A CEO boasted about buying every "female" employee a pink ice cream maker for IWD. Based on a true story. A law firm. Meghan's brain short-circuits on air; Leanne points out that International Women's Day is about policies and workplace change that benefit women all year round — "it's not about buying us flowers."
"We're like a family here" — RED. Leanne's passionate case: you're not family. You won't spend holidays together or attend the birth of each other's children — but you might have to lay someone off one day. "What's wrong with team? We're a team. What a brilliant, wonderful word we've been using for 100 years." Meghan's on board: the ride-or-die bonds of a great team translate beautifully — call them team members.
The manager who says "I don't know" — GREEN. Meghan: leaders aren't supposed to have all the answers — humility and vulnerability are exactly the leadership she wants to follow. Leanne: the best managers are more likely to say "I don't know" than to make up an entire nonsense story. (Dunning-Kruger nods all round.)
The CEO who interviews every candidate — RED for the interviews, GREEN for the first day. Leanne: if you're the CEO meeting every single candidate, you don't trust your hiring process — and you've got better things to do. But a founder spending time with new hires during onboarding? Green flag. Meghan's example: Torani Syrups' CEO still runs a monthly onboarding for every new employee, talking through vision and values — "she's not some myth in the C-suite office."
The best spreadsheet of the month trophy — RED. It's a true story. Meghan: it makes people who aren't spreadsheet-proficient feel deficient for no reason and breeds internal competition. Leanne: start with the question "what behaviour are you trying to reinforce?" — and reward the things you actually want to see. The better model comes from Barry-Wehmiller: a peer-nominated monthly award for the person who lived the company's values most.
Bonus Debate: Undercover Boss — brilliant idea or just great TV?
Both verdicts: great TV, terrible idea. Meghan: going undercover shows you don't trust your people and have zero understanding of the day-to-day — the opposite of Biggby Coffee's co-CEOs, who just show up and work the register. Then it's time to nerd out on Zingerman's: the Ann Arbor community of businesses with team-member ownership, open-book management and full transparency — Al's loved it since reading Small Giants 18 years ago, and Meghan's visited the deli. "It's what business could look like."
Final Flags: the biggest green flags of all
- Leanne: training your managers. Untrained first-time managers are the root of so many workplace problems — invest early and often.
- Meghan: employee ownership. And a promise to come back and talk about it properly, because "I'm not sure everyone's doing it the right way."
🏢 Companies & Resources Mentioned
- Barry-Wehmiller: barrywehmiller.com
- Torani Syrups: torani.com
- Zingerman's: zingermans.com
More From Meghan French-Dunbar
- Website: meghanfrenchdunbar.com/book
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/meghanfrenchdunbar
- Substack: meghanfrenchdunbar.substack.com
- Email: meghan@frenchdunbar.com
- Book, This Isn't Working — use code TLW for 20% off: hachettebookgroup.com
- Podcast, Unbehaved — wherever you get your podcasts (the second-best podcast in the world, apparently)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Leanne ElliottWelcome to another episode of our Truth, Lies and Work Summer Sessions. For the next few weeks, we're taking a little break from the workplace news and the deep dives to bring you something a bit lighter, the sort of episode you could enjoy maybe on a summer walk, a long drive, or while you're pretending not to check your emails on the beach.
Al ElliottAnd today is really simple. We're calling it Workplace Red Flag or Green Flag, just in case you're old like me and you don't know what red flag and green flag is. In the dating world, in all the memes, if someone is a red— if someone exhibits a red flag, then you shouldn't date them. If someone exhibits a green flag, you definitely should date them. Now, we have all heard the workplace advice, and we're applying this stuff very clumsily, I'm doing it, to workplace. We've heard the workplace advice, like things like never discuss salary or hire for culture fit. But are these actually signs of a healthy workplace, or are they red flags that we've somehow convinced ourselves are normal?
Leanne ElliottAfter the break, we are joined by author, speaker, and host of the UnbeHaved podcast, Meghan French-Dunbar. Dunbar, MFD, to put some of the biggest workplace behaviours, leadership advice, and organisational trends to the test. Play along as well as each one comes up. Make your decision before we reveal ours. We'll be back in a very, very little short time. We need to, we need to hear from the sponsors, right?
Al ElliottThis is contractual, Meghan. This is contractual. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello, hello, and welcome back. This is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you of course by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd normally we'd be here to help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures, but not this week.
Al ElliottNope, today we're joined by author, speaker, and also one of our favourite people in the world, and host of the Unbehave podcast, Meghan French-Dunbar!
Leanne ElliottMFD! MFD! MFD!
Al ElliottUm, I mean, how are you?
Meghan French-DunbarNobody can hear my awesome dancing that I'm doing, but, um, I'm doing, I'm doing wonderfully. How are you both?
Al ElliottVery good.
Leanne ElliottYeah, good, good.
Al ElliottI'm also really disappointed I didn't do the, um, the X Factor intro. I don't know whether you get the same guy in, in the, in the US, but in, in the UK they go, Meghan French-Dunbar! No, you don't get the same guy, do you?
Meghan French-DunbarI mean, I know what you're talking about.
Al ElliottGoing so well. Tell us what you're up to, Meghan.
Meghan French-DunbarI mean, I'm enjoying a gorgeous day in Boulder, Colorado. It is 10:00 AM where I am. I've just gotten back from 2 weeks in British Columbia. And on the work side of things, I have very recently— I have the Unbehaved podcast and Substack, and I have been really walking through what happened when I did my first lead legal psilocybin-assisted therapy journey in May. And it has become— there's part 1 and part 2 on Substack and part 1 and part 2 on the podcast. And it has been a really fun topic to— the more I get interested, the more I go deeper and deeper and deeper into why psilocybin is so incredible. So that's been fun. And my 1-year bookaversary is coming up August 5th.
Leanne ElliottOh, wow.
Meghan French-DunbarYou know, living the life over here.
Leanne ElliottWe were saying, weren't we, before we hit record that you think this is around about our 1-year anniversary from the first time you were on the show?
Meghan French-DunbarYeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Amazing. Happy anniversary, love.
Al ElliottYeah.
Meghan French-DunbarThe best year ever spent with you two.
Al ElliottI feel bad because I didn't get anything. I just didn't even think about it. It's typical man, just forgot the anniversary. I'm so sorry.
Meghan French-DunbarI mean, you got me a co-host on the podcast bot. So that, like, I'll take that. That's pretty rad.
Leanne ElliottTrue, true.
Al ElliottThat's better than, um, that's better than flowers from the petrol station or the gas station these days, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottI don't know, but I think petrol station flowers have like, like, come on.
Al ElliottYou think so?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I'm not gonna lie. When I went— when I last went back and I stopped at the garage, um, just before I got to my mum and dad's and got a beautiful bunch of flowers. It was one of those— I don't know if you have this, Meghan— where we have like supermarkets that will have the shop in the petrol station.
Meghan French-DunbarYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, yeah. So this was— it was a supermarket shop, I guess. Does that make a difference? Maybe. Dunno.
Al ElliottI hope so. This is some quality, quality podcasting here.
Leanne ElliottIt is, isn't it? Hard-hitting stuff.
Al ElliottYeah.
Meghan French-DunbarThis is what I came here to talk about.
Al ElliottShould we get straight into our game?
Leanne ElliottYeah, let's do it.
Al ElliottOkay. Okay. So I've got this list of workplace behaviours or career advice or situations that basically I'm going to read them out one by one. And then you 2 lovely, lovely women are gonna decide— can I say lovely women? That sounded a bit creepy when I said that. I can say—
Leanne ElliottHighly intelligent professionals.
Al ElliottHighly intelligent.
Leanne ElliottSo what?
Al ElliottAnd why did I have to make it women? Because you 2 people, you see, I genderise, I genderise everything. I over-genderise. That's what I do. Well, what we're gonna do is we're gonna— you're gonna say you think that is a red flag of a corporate culture or a— I was about to say blue. Come on, Al, this is the format point. Or a green flag. And then we're gonna ask you why. I'd ask if you understand, but I think you understand better than I do. Okay, cool. No right or wrong answers. Definitely want some opinions. Let's kick off with our very, very first one. Before I do, Meghan, on a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate that sort of intro to this game?
Leanne ElliottAs a fellow podcaster?
Al ElliottAs a fellow podcaster.
Meghan French-DunbarI mean, I guess I'd say red flag. Maybe like a 3, but it's cool. You guys are still learning, and you're just Just getting your feet under you.
Al ElliottGenuinely, what this is— this is going to be episode 324. We've done 120, so we're at 444 episodes of podcasts we've done. Yeah, you'd think we'd be better. Okay, right, I've got 20 of these. I want you to pick a—
Leanne Elliott20?
Al ElliottYes, I want you to pick a number. We'll go Meghan first, and then we'll go Leanne. Pick a number between 1 and 20.
Leanne Elliott18.
Al Elliott8. Oh, good choice. So this is the situation. An MD explains in a podcast interview, we recruit almost entirely through employee referrals. Is that a red flag or a green flag or undecided? Who wants to go first?
Leanne ElliottLeanne should go first.
Meghan French-DunbarI feel, I feel red flag there. I feel like that is similar to Culture fit. And at least in my experience, when we— the referrals that you would give out would often be to your friends and family and people who are very similar to you. And so, it just perpetuates the homogenized culture of getting lots of people in there who have very similar qualities and would be potentially a hard way to to drive genuine diversity of thought, opinion, experience, all the things that you want to really be in a place to drive innovation and all the things that you want in an organization. So, my quick thinking is red flag. Leanne?
Leanne ElliottI would say, without more information, red flag. I worked in an organization where we did make a fair few hires through referrals, but they'd go through the same recruitment process as external. candidates, um, and it was objective criterion. So we did have a few, a few hires that did end up being referrals where we didn't really have that same problem. But I think knowing how few organisations actually have robust, objective, evidence-backed recruitment process, I think I'm inclined to agree it's a bit of a red flag.
Al ElliottDo you know what's funny is that I read— there's a book called The Knack by Bo Burlingham. Um, and he's also written Small Giants, I think. Well, you and I have talked about this before, MFD. I'm sure we have. Um, and he said, and one of the things he's, one of the stories he told was that they, they, they recruit exclusively friends and family. And they said it was the most successful thing they've ever done. But I suppose, and, and, and back then I was thinking, oh my God, this sounds amazing. I'll do that then. But thinking about it, they never, they never actually said whether they'd got diversity in there, whether they got any kind of like, whether it was groupthink or whatever. So I, I hadn't actually thought about it that from that point of view. Yeah.
Meghan French-DunbarI mean, if you are looking for a culture that gets along really well, perhaps just doing friends and family, if you don't want diversity of thought, if you don't want people challenging each other. I don't know, but it would be probably a very pleasant place to work.
Leanne ElliottYeah, not much friction there with the— I think family is a bit more problematic.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottIt's a lot more problematic, isn't it? Yeah, those kind of nepo hires never really work out, rarely work out. So yeah, it would be an automatic red flag if those referrals were mainly family.
Al ElliottCan I ask a question? Do you think this would be acceptable if you were a startup and this was like your first 10 employees? Would that change your mind?
Meghan French-DunbarI mean, I have personal experience with this. This is what I did with my first company, Conscious Company Media. We had our 2 co-founders, we hired one person, my first person off of Craigslist, hashtag 2014, and that person we didn't know. And then all the next, I think, 5 hires were all friends. And it was people we'd met in grad school and people who we'd met through various networks of ours. And I think perhaps my red flag comment came from the fact that I looked up at employee 10 and I had an entirely We were all women between the ages of, let's call it, 29 and 45, all white. And I had just hired a completely homogenous group of people because it was all friends and family. And I think when I was— I just gave advice to someone who's starting a company yesterday who called. And I said, I think the biggest mistake that startups make is hiring their friends because You go with what you know and trust rather than what you actually need. And if they can make it through a formal vetting process to actually see if they have the skills and everything that you need to get to the next level, cool. But I doubt that you have that if you are a startup.
Al ElliottLeigh, can I play devil's avocado for a second? Please.
Leanne ElliottI love it when you're an avocado.
Al ElliottYou said, you've said quite often that the people who get you here probably won't get you there.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo often you've said employee number 13 is where things start to change. It fragments, and you often have to lose some of your earlier people. So I take on board fully what MFD's saying. At the same time, I'm going to ask the same question to you and go, if you would— if you looked at them kind of as disposable, that's not a good way to describe an employee.
Leanne ElliottMy employees are my friends.
Al ElliottYour employees.
Leanne ElliottOr my family.
Al ElliottYour employees. Do you see what I'm getting at? Is that—
Leanne ElliottI think you've actually made more of a case for it being a red flag in that you're absolutely right. You kind of— and how many clients we worked with where we're helping them through this exact kind of friction point where they've been a startup, they've either recruited people that they know or they've bonded very, very closely and very, very quickly. And then the issue that they're having is either the direction of the company changed or the vision changes or the growth strategy changes, and you're bringing in more people and you've suddenly got this us and them. Of like, well, we're the OG people who have this really strong personal relationship with you that helped you even get to this point. And you've got your new people in that are just excited to be part of a really cool scale-up company. And it's that friction and the fact if they're your friends as well, it just gets unnecessarily messy, doesn't it?
Al ElliottI'm— I've changed my mind. I've changed my mind. Excellent. Right. I'm with both of you. Leigh, choose a number between 1 and 20.
Leanne ElliottNumber 15.
Al ElliottNumber 15. Okay, here we go. You discover in a new job that not only is the office dog on the org chart, but—
Leanne ElliottOh my God, I've seen an org chart like that.
Al ElliottBut they have their own email address. Leigh, let's go to you first. Red flag or green flag?
Leanne ElliottI'm always inclined to sway red flag for anything that's a bit quirky and kind of a bit, um, because you're also then, well, what happens if you have an employee that, or you, you know, a candidate who really doesn't like dogs or is afraid of them, or, or from a hygiene perspective, or sometimes it's just annoying if you've got a smelly dog in your face. And I say that as somebody who has 3 dogs. Um, I don't know. Oh, I, I quite— you know what, I've actually got a client that's in this situation, so I'm gonna say it depends.
Al ElliottOh, it depends. MFD, thoughts?
Meghan French-DunbarBlue flag for sure here, which is, I don't know, because I would work with a dog in my lap all day, every day. If I'm at a party, I am the person who's hanging out with the dogs, not the people. And when I go into an office and they have dogs, it makes me feel super, super happy. I think Org chart can be cute, whatever, on the website. Like, I like that you're respecting your animals. Email address? Like, the fact that someone went far enough to set that up. I don't know. I don't know. But I mean, Leanne, I'm hearing you. Like, my friend Nathan is allergic to dogs, and there's some people who are afraid of them. And so—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Meghan French-DunbarI don't know. I can't. I can't. Blue flag, which means—
Leanne ElliottYeah. He's not my type. I think if it was a cat, if it was a cat, I'd be red flag.
Al ElliottOh, interesting.
Meghan French-Dunbar100%.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOh, no, I would be too. But I would have thought a cat would be more acceptable to the majority of people.
Leanne ElliottThey make me sneeze. They're very sly. I don't care for them.
Meghan French-DunbarIt's the slyness that does it for me too, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottSly. Yeah.
Al ElliottThey've got that side eye of going, I know what you've done. I've been checking out your internet history. Yeah, that's, that's not cool. Right. Now, see, interesting, interesting thought, because if I hadn't followed up by saying they have their own email address, if they were just on the org chart or on the website as a kind of a member of staff, would that change it from blue? Which, by the way, MFD, you've just totally changed the rules because we didn't have blue flag, but I understand why you've done it. Thank you. You've ruined my format. But if it just had—
Meghan French-DunbarI'm pretty sure you were the one at the top of the hour that said blue flag.
Leanne ElliottYou did include a blue flag.
Al ElliottDid I?
Leanne ElliottI'm not sure it was for this intention, but you did mention a blue flag.
Meghan French-DunbarIt was a mistake.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottHold on, I'm just gonna rewind and listen to this bit and see if I'm actually true. No, I obviously did. If it was only that they were like a fun part of the org chart or a fun part of the website, would that change your mind from blue to red or green? Go on. You look like you wanna say something, Meghan.
Meghan French-DunbarI mean, I don't have anything different from— it makes it better. It makes it better if they don't have the email, but the previous parts stand about, you know, people being allergic or scared or all the things, and you want people to feel safe in a workplace.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Do you know what? I think it comes down to the intention. If it's just a cutesy bit, like almost like a marketing kind of thing, then I think it's slightly red flag because you could be— it could be causing problems. You could, for example, have a situation where there's a dog on the org chart because maybe it's a A, um, what they called assistance dog. Maybe you've got somebody who's blind in the organisation, or autistic, who has an assistance dog, and you welcome them into the office, and you do all the checks you need to do to make sure everyone's comfortable and happy. That could be a scenario, potentially, where it's okay.
Al ElliottRight. We're still sticking with blue because it depends, and we've got to see what the rest of the thing does. Cool. Okay, I love this. I love this. Shall— right, whose turn is it to pick a number? Is it you, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottNo, Meghan next.
Al ElliottMeghan. Number 1 to 20, not including 8. 5. Brilliant. Okay. All right. So here's— this is interesting, right? Okay. At interview, you're told nobody gets an office, including the CEO. Because you picked it, Meghan, why don't you go first? Tell me what you think. Red, green, or blue?
Meghan French-DunbarRed.
Leanne ElliottOh!
Al ElliottUh.
Meghan French-DunbarWhy?
Leanne ElliottWell.
Meghan French-DunbarI think, I mean, one, if we're doing a nobody has an office except for the CEO, it is implying that they in fact have to be working in an office, which is a huge red flag for me. The work-from-office full-time mandate, huge red flag. That prevents a ton of people from being able to work. People who have different abilities, working parents, people who are caretakers. People who have various needs outside of work. So the work-from-office mandate, huge red flag. If it is like even a part-time situation and it's a completely open floor plan, I appreciate the— a bit like the— we're honoring everybody has the same value, so everyone has the exact same situation in the office. And a completely open floor plan where nobody has an office doesn't account for people who have neurodivergence or different abilities. And it—
Leanne ElliottRight.
Meghan French-DunbarMyself included. I have ADHD, and I cannot work effectively in a wide-open floor plan with tons of people walking around and talking near me. Even if I have noise-canceling headphones and the whole thing, it is just incredibly hard for me to work. I need my little tiny space. And to not even have that as an option, to not have flexible policies or customizable workplaces that actually meet people where they are, and just forcing one mandate across the board, and forcing them to kind of shift and mold themselves to fit the workplace. Red flag. Leanne?
Al ElliottLeigh, I'm loving— I'm loving that if you say green flag, then you're basically saying the ADHD is fake news.
Leanne ElliottI'm loving this.
Al ElliottThis is gonna be interesting. Leigh, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottRed flag. Red flag all day long. Because do you know what it is? Everything that Meghan said there, there's also research that shows that open-plan offices are really, really crappy for productivity and performance. Performance for neurodiverse people and neurotypical people. It's just not a conducive environment for productivity and for work. It's also— I think it falls under this myth of like, and I think often the intention is good, like a leader that goes, I treat everyone the same. And it's like, I know what you're trying to say, but you shouldn't. Because as Meghan rightly pointed out, everyone has different needs, and we can't just try and squeeze everybody into this one, one-shaped workplace environment and hope that everyone will get on the same. Um, they won't. You shouldn't treat everybody the same. Everyone Has their own individual needs and personalisation is key. So, red flag.
Al ElliottLove it. Love it. I think we can squeeze one more in before the break. Okay, so, uh, Leigh, your turn to pick a number.
Leanne ElliottUh, number 2.
Al ElliottNumber 2. Let me just look it up. Okay. You discover— oh, this is quite similar. You discover that at your new job, they have complete salary transparency, i.e., everyone knows what everyone else earns.
Leanne ElliottGreen flag.
Al ElliottGreen, straight away, straight out the gate, green. Why?
Leanne ElliottBecause I think salary transparency should be a thing anyway. I know certain, certain American states now that have brought that in at a point of kind of hiring, or on the job advert you have to display salary. And it does irritate me when companies don't, because it's like, well, I think this job is at my level, but if I go through this like 4-week recruitment process and then I get an offer that's half what my expectations are, then what a waste of everyone's time. I think it would, it would, it would hopefully, having that transparency, mean that there's fairness and equity in how salary is decided, how promotions are worked out, how any sort of commission or bonus structure works. Um, I can see some scenarios I'm thinking of, you know, like the BBC has pay transparency now, so every year they'll—
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThey'll publish like the 50 highest paid stars and always some controversy around they're not worth that much. So I can see in some environments it could cause some issues in places. But I think if done correctly, done fairly, pay transparency for me is a green flag.
Al ElliottOh, MFD.
Meghan French-Dunbar100% agree.
Al ElliottReally?
Meghan French-DunbarYeah. I mean, I would take it the next step further to Pay transparency and open book management. And I think when we have completely shut down workplaces that don't give their workers access to information, it implies that they just don't trust their people. And open book management, which has pay transparency as well as financial transparency around how the organization works, how it's doing, they actually educate their team members regardless of their level on the financial status of the organization. They give them financial education. And so everyone has a new sense of ownership, but they also feel a sense of dignity. When you come into any organization and they don't give you access to information and don't give you any insight into decision-making, that makes everyone feel disenfranchised. And disenfranchisement is on the other end of the spectrum from feeling dignified. And when you're stripped of your dignity for most of the majority of your waking hours, It makes people really, really frustrated. So, to go all the way down that rabbit hole, it's a huge green flag for me. It also is one of the things that helps ensure that the gender pay gap is, in fact, being addressed when you have pay transparency.
Leanne ElliottI think as well, there's an element of you kind of— we've worked with clients, haven't we, where they haven't always been that transparent and then have made decisions and they've had this massive backlash. And then we've kind of unpicked it, and when we you know encourage them to release more information around financial performance, and employees have gone, "Oh, why didn't you just say that to begin with?" It's like right because if we treat like an adult, and this is the way it is, and this is why we're having to make some of the decisions we're making, people will be more likely to accept them. Whereas if there's a change and I don't know why, and there's that ambiguity, then it's that classic thing, isn't it? My threat state goes. I start to fill in the gaps. Well, they must be in trouble. It must be really really bad. or the CEO's got a massive bonus and they just don't want to share it. I start to disengage and I start looking for another job. And it's just unnecessary gossip and drama. Whereas transparency, which would probably still— I mean, you might still have a bit, but at least, you know, you're dealing with the facts, aren't you? And it's all out there.
Meghan French-DunbarAli, you look surprised. Are you surprised by both of our answers here?
Al ElliottI am a little bit. I mean, I think in theory, pay transparency, yes, that makes sense. But it's like in theory, a 4-day workweek makes sense. 4-day workweek makes sense, but I just think it's got so many ways it could go wrong.
Meghan French-DunbarThe research shows that productivity stays the exact same with a 4-day workweek than it does a 5-day one. And life satisfaction and employee engagement goes up. And so does employee retention. Just saying. I mean—
Leanne ElliottJust because it's hard doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.
Al ElliottI feel like my argument has just been shot down massively.
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottAnd no, and I— oh, don't do the, oh no, no, no, it's okay, Al. Don't do that because that makes it even worse. Well, do you know what? I would not have said green flag, but I'm sitting in front of 2 very, very experienced and accomplished people, and I will just say, right, I'm gonna— I will defer to your opinion.
Leanne ElliottNo, I think it's good because you're thinking like a business owner, you're thinking like an entrepreneur. And Meghan, I know you'll have these conversations clients as well, and you're like, it might seem counterintuitive, but this is the better way to go. Um, so I think it's good that, yeah, you're the business owner in the room going, really? Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
Al ElliottIt's funny, it's funny because, uh, where we go, we recruit employ— through employee referrals. I thought green flag. Yeah, that sounds a really good idea. Uh, nobody gets an office. I put green flag. Yeah, yeah, that's a great idea. And then transparent pay, transparent— put red flag. So far I am wrong 100% of the time. Uh, okay, right, we're gonna go— we're gonna go on the break, but before we do, right, I want to tell you this, right? I love this. So someone— it was— there's a Twitter account called Fesshole, and it's all about confessions.
Leanne ElliottWhy does that sound really dirty?
Meghan French-DunbarI think it's meant to sound—
Leanne ElliottOh, it sounds dirty, not in a good way.
Al ElliottMaybe that's why I like it. I'll be honest, most, most of them are pretty unbroadcastable, but this one was someone who said, I worked at this place for about 3 years. They were the worst company I ever worked at, um, and they basically fired me. They were like, oh, you've got good news, you're getting voluntary redundancy. And it wasn't voluntary at all. They were basically getting fired. So on the last day, they, they did a spreadsheet of all the names of the company and then put fake salaries on it and left it on the printer and walked out the door. I was just like, wait for that to kick off. But I thought that was genius.
Leanne ElliottBrilliant.
Al ElliottOpposite of pay transparency. Anyway, right. We need to, we need to go to a break, uh, and we'll be back in just one second, I hope, unless I get cancelled.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. This feature, I don't know, people, some people might say this is working. Some people might say this isn't working. If you are the latter, then you will love Meghan's book, This Isn't Working. You should definitely go to Amazon, Barnes Noble, wherever you get— wherever you get— check this out.
Leanne ElliottMy word, he's a podcaster, ladies and gentlemen!
Meghan French-DunbarYou just redeemed yourself for the crappy intro.
Al ElliottIf we do publish the video, you'll see me leaning back in a kind of like a very accomplished— yeah. Oh yeah, check me out. That was— I feel that was a bit more Ron Burgundy than, uh, Get the dial earlier. Anyway, right, so we are— we're— I've got another number of these. Let's see how many we can get through. Um, and where are we up to? Who's choosing the number of the first one?
Leanne ElliottI think it's Meghan next.
Al ElliottMeghan, Meghan, you lovely person.
Meghan French-Dunbar3.
Al ElliottUh, let me just see. Oh, oh, I can't do 3 because that's so obviously one or the other.
Leanne ElliottHow do you know? You said you got them all wrong before the break.
Meghan French-DunbarWhy don't you choose your favorite one?
Al ElliottOkay. Oh yeah, that's a good idea. I'll choose this one because I genuinely don't know how this is gonna go. So I'm gonna use a nerdy word in a second and I will define it. Um, so in this new job, you are bonused on token maxing. And just in case anyone's listening who doesn't know what token— I know you two do, but doesn't know what token maxing is, it's the person who uses the most AI tokens in a month. And they get a bonus. So the more AI tokens, i.e., the more you use AI, you get a bonus. Is this red or green? Who are we gonna go to first? I will just choose randomly. I'll point at someone at random. I have no idea where. Leanne.
Leanne ElliottI don't understand enough about AI to understand what the intention would be and the good outcome from the company would be if people token max.
Al ElliottDo you want me to give you a little bit of context?
Leanne ElliottLike, is it— what are they being incentivized? I understand they're trying to use all their tokens, but to what end?
Al ElliottThere is a company which I can't remember the name of, but basically they're embracing AI so much that the person who uses AI the most, i.e., uses the most number of tokens, gets a bonus because they are trying to leverage AI so much to build their company. They want AI to do 90% of the work and the humans to do the 10% that AI can't.
Leanne ElliottOkay, then I'm gonna say red flag.
Al ElliottOh, opposite.
Leanne ElliottI'm gonna say red flag because I think it just comes down to— I feel that like quantity isn't always as good as quality. Like if you're just throwing shit at the wall because it's using AI to get your token max so you get your bonus, then, you know, whereas if you're designing it in a way that's like, how do we use AI in a way that is going to take away the grunt work so we're moving our people on to more value-add Or how do we use AI in a way that improves our governance or our compliance or improves the experience for our customers? Or what's the goal behind trying to use AI to do that thing rather than let's just use AI? It just feels a bit like— I don't know, it's like if you're in a call center, would you really incentivize— maybe you did back in the day— incentivize people for the number of calls made? It's probably much more effective to Incentivize them on the calls they've converted to a sale.
Al ElliottInteresting. Meghan?
Meghan French-DunbarI'm in total agreement and red flag. And I had the exact quality over quantity situation. It's— you're not actually looking at what the AI is being used for. And I just had a conversation on a podcast a couple of weeks ago about the ethical side of deploying AI in the workplace. And instead of it being seen as something to replace jobs What if it is used to actually help people grow and develop, help develop and nurture team culture? Like, there's a lot of positive ways that it could be used besides maximizing productivity. And I feel like the individual bonus structure of one or 2 people get their bonuses based on how many tokens they have compared to all of their other teammates breeds internal competition instead of a more unified team-oriented culture. And In my opinion, I think bonuses should be for every single human being at the organization based on top-line revenue growth of the organization. So, it becomes a, we succeed together, not individual performers or people who are cutthroat or overworking themselves or using the tools as many times as they possibly can in an hour. All of a sudden, that becomes a quantity over quality and individualistic behavior that breeds—
Al ElliottBurnout.
Meghan French-Dunbargarbage cultures over the long term.
Al ElliottI love that. And I was about to say, what would be the alternative? You just explained it. It was Emily and Katie's podcast you did the AI episode on. What was that called, the podcast?
Meghan French-DunbarIt's called Reimagining Work from Within with Within People.
Al ElliottBeautiful.
Leanne ElliottNice.
Al ElliottBeautiful. Okay.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottSo I think it's MFD's time to choose. You give me—
Meghan French-DunbarI mean, I feel like with the time left, you should just choose the juiciest ones.
Al ElliottGot it, got it.
Meghan French-DunbarI don't know, Leanne, what do you think?
Al ElliottNo, I'm—
Leanne ElliottI agree, pick the juicy one.
Al ElliottI'm doing it, I'm doing it. Uh, so let's whip through the rest of these. Friday afternoons are karaoke parties.
Leanne ElliottRed flag.
Al ElliottWith a dedicated room for it.
Leanne ElliottRed flag.
Al ElliottAttendance is optional, but...
Leanne ElliottSorry, I couldn't help myself. It was just like— Red.
Al ElliottUh, quickfire thoughts, MFD.
Meghan French-DunbarI mean, this, like, it's fun and I'm glad it exists. The, like, it's not mandatory, but dot, dot, dot. There's an element that's not going to be everyone's cup of tea and forcing people to do things that they don't want to do, but they feel like if they don't do, they won't be part of the crew or that they will be penalized in some way, or it is the only way in which they are able to connect with their coworkers, even though they're doing something that they actively don't— or they actively dislike. Also, it doesn't account for parents or people who— other people who have caretaking responsibilities or other things outside of the workplace where on Fridays afternoons they need to be taking care of other people. And so all of a sudden they're just SOL. Leanne, where are you?
Leanne ElliottForced fun isn't fun. Like, that's all I think I need to say. It's not fun. It doesn't do anything good for your organization apart from make everyone feel really freaking awkward.
Al ElliottOkay, love it. Right, so we've just said that's red flag both. So we've both— I think both of you agreed so far, uh, not with me obviously, but with each other.
Meghan French-DunbarYes.
Al ElliottOkay, so I've got one here which— all right, I think we're gonna disagree again. A job description says, we offer every employee unlimited holidays. Vacations, obviously, just in case you weren't sure you could translate that word, MFD. Who we go to first?
Leanne ElliottGo Meghan first.
Al ElliottMeghan.
Meghan French-DunbarI'm going to go greenish flag because it's one thing to say you have unlimited PTO. Well, I'm assuming it's paid holidays. Unlimited PTO. It's another to understand if the culture actually supports people in taking that time off because I know plenty of organizations that have these shiny benefits like unlimited PTO, but that they don't actually make it okay for people to take that time away. But when I was doing interviews for the book, Gayle Jennings O'Byrne, she has Walkstar Capital. She went to her team, and they were redoing their benefits, and she's like, everyone's going to want better— the next healthcare option, or better health insurance. We're in the States. It's all garbage. So she went to her team and decided to say, We've got this surplus this year. I'm going to invest it in benefits. Would you rather have this gold standard package of benefits, or is there something else that you'd want here? And across the board, her team said, we want unlimited PTO, and we want vacation matching instead of retirement matching. And so, again, customizing your workplace to suit what your team actually wants, and then supporting it. But I think That brings up the next part of the conversation, which is, yes, having unlimited PTO, I think, is kind of green flag, as long as that is, in fact, what your team actually wants, and that you have talked to them about that.
Al ElliottLeigh, agree or disagree?
Leanne ElliottI'm gonna say blue flag.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottIf not slightly purple, if it's mixing with red. The thing is, again, and I think all of these always come from a good place, right? They come from a really good human-centered, place. What I've read about unlimited time off is, as you rightly said, Megan, is in the execution. Either the organizations don't actually support people to take as much time as they want off— and let's be honest, it's not unlimited, because if I take off 360 days a year, we're not gonna have a job next year. So it's not unlimited. So let's not lie to each other. There is going to be a cap somehow. But what I've seen more so that the problem is Younger employees— I don't necessarily mean by age, but in terms of career— are more reluctant to take more time off because they don't know if that'll be seen as lazy or entitled, or there's no kind of guidelines in terms of what the average should be. So I think I'd rather see like a really generous holiday allowance with a clear expectation of, we expect you to take 100% of holiday leave because that's part of our well-being and recovery strategy. So if you're not taking 100% of your holiday, there's something wrong, and we'll be having a conversation about it at various points to make sure you're finding the right time to take them. And then I'd like to see generous leave allowances for other stuff— maternity, paternity, grief leave, sickness leave. Um, there's so many other reasons, or, you know, in terms of hospitals, or, or if you've got chronic illness, like time off there. If you've got caring responsibilities, flexibility in having time off there. I think I'd just rather see across-the-board policies around people when they need to take time away from work for whatever reason. The company is going to be very generous in that respect. Where if it's just annual leave itself, I'm not sure. I'm not sure from what we're seeing from the research so far, it's really working that well.
Al ElliottLovely, lovely. So we've got there, you've both said, Meghan, you said greenish. You said— Leanne said bluish. Can we agree that that's going to be a blue one, which is kind of like not sure? Is that fair?
Meghan French-DunbarI think, yeah, with all the caveats that Leanne has, if it's, if it's unlimited PTO, regardless of whether or not that's sick or caretaking or parental leave or all the things versus unlimited vacation, those are 2 different questions. And I would say green flag to unlimited PTO, not necessarily vacation.
Al ElliottOkay, so I've got a proposal for you 2. I've got, I've got one more I want to do. Because I think you're gonna throw things at me. And then I've got about 4 I want to do quickfire. Are we cool with that?
Leanne ElliottYep.
Al ElliottNow I just want to be really, really clear, okay? Because especially to you, Meghan, because I'm even more frightened of you than I am of my wife. I did not say this. This is a real person who did this, and this is nothing to do with me. Messenger shooting, all that kind of stuff, remember, okay? So I'm going to come to you first, Meghan, for your thoughts. This CEO boasted that they got all the females in their company a pink ice cream maker for International Women's Day. Thoughts? Oh, I mean, watch the video.
Meghan French-DunbarI wish I could translate my facial expression into words, but it's not going to happen. Magenta flag? Like red flag? Like the hot red flag? Fuck, I can't even. I don't— I don't have anything else to say to this. Uh, I don't know.
Al ElliottIf this was a Mexi— if this was a Mexican menu, we'd have 3 chilies next to it. Is that what we're saying? It's like, it's 3 red flags. It is just a fucking shit show. Is that what we're saying?
Meghan French-DunbarYeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.
Al ElliottGot it. Lee, this is bad, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottOh God, yeah, it's red flag, red flag. Well, actually, what actually makes me sad is this is based on a true story, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottMy God. Awful, awful, awful. It's just, it's the whole— that's not what International Women's Day— I mean, it's not what it's about, you know? It's not, it's not a day. It's a day for awareness and discussion to create policies and workplace changes that then benefit women all year round. It's not about buying us flowers or giving us gifts. You know what I mean?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottBehave. Sit down.
Al ElliottMeghan, anything to add? Anything to add?
Meghan French-DunbarNo, I, I don't. My brain has just completely short-circuited, so I don't think—
Al ElliottI'd imagine it'd be very hard to climb down from that energy. So yes, fair point. Fair point. Okay. I'll be honest, I put that one in because I pretty much guaranteed that, that Meghan, you were gonna— I could see your face in the future. Right.
Leanne ElliottAnd then it's pink as well. You misogynistic asshole.
Meghan French-DunbarYeah.
Al ElliottWell, right. So would it surprise you to know, I think it was a law firm. It was a boomer, white male. I think, I think you knew all that already.
Meghan French-DunbarI can see this guy so clear. I know exactly what he looks like.
Al ElliottExactly. Drives a Mercedes S-Class. Okay, right, so quickfire. So we've probably got about 5 minutes left. Quickfire. So we'll go to Leanne first. Leanne, the HR director tells you, we're like a family here.
Leanne ElliottRed flag! Tell you what, you get in the car next to the pink ice cream dude, keep driving, and don't stop ever. Just keep going.
Al ElliottI'm gonna come back to you and ask you why that's such a big red— instant red flag, Meghan.
Meghan French-DunbarRed flag. Go back to Leanne. I want to hear it.
Al ElliottInstant red flag.
Leanne ElliottWhy? You're not family. You're not family. You're not family. You're not family. You're not family. You're not going to spend holidays together. You're not, you're not going to, going to go to the birth of each other's children. You're probably more than likely going to have to talk to them about performance management issues at some point. You might have to lay them off one day. You might have to sack them. They're not your family. I understand you're looking for a word, and I think particularly in startups, you're looking for a word to try and explain the connection you're feeling to these people as you're building something that you so strongly believe in. Maybe it's a community. But you know what really annoys me about this? What's wrong with team? We're a team. Amazing. What a brilliant, wonderful word that we've been using for 100 years now. We're a team.
Al ElliottGreat.
Leanne ElliottLet's, let's go with that.
Al ElliottLeanne, your face.
Leanne ElliottOh, it's just, it causes so many issues, you know? So many issues.
Al ElliottMeghan, I have definitely said this in the past in the same company that I talked about before. Have you ever said this or ever said anything similar to this? No.
Meghan French-DunbarBut I felt, I felt, I, I hear what Leanne is saying. And like, I felt My team, I was like, it was ride or die. I would've done anything for those people. And I loved them in this very specific way. And I called them all team members. I played a lot of team sports growing up. Like, it is very, very similar to the bonds that you create on any sort of team sport. And that translates beautifully to the workplace. So I am with you, team.
Leanne ElliottPerfect.
Al ElliottLove it. Love it. And by the way, if you want to hear that story, I believe Meghan told it on the— a year ago on our, on our episode.
Leanne ElliottWe'll leave a link. We'll leave a link.
Al ElliottLeave a link in the show notes. Definitely go and listen to that. Brilliant. Okay, so Meghan, it's your turn first, I think. Um, you start a new company, and on day 1, when you ask your manager a question, they say, do you know what, I don't really know the answer to that. Red or green?
Meghan French-DunbarGreen.
Al ElliottOh!
Meghan French-DunbarBecause I think we have this flawed assumption that leaders and managers are supposed to have all the answers. And someone who is humble and vulnerable enough to say, I actually don't know, in front of their team as a leader, that actually shows the type of leadership I want to be following.
Leanne ElliottA great green flag. Shows a level of self-awareness, humility, You— we don't have all the answers. And I think it's that— is it them? Is it— I always get it mixed up, the people. It's Dunning-Kruger, isn't it? Where kind of you, you kind of— you don't know what you don't know. And then the more you learn, you realize the more you don't know. And it's almost like you need to— I think the best managers are probably more likely to go, you know what, I don't know, than go make up this entire, you know, nonsense story that— So yeah, green flag.
Al ElliottI agree with this. I agree with this. And I like people who, when I ask, particularly interview them, they say, what do they go, you know, I don't know, but I will find that out and I'll let you know so you can put it in the show notes or something. I'm like, cool. I like that. I like that. Okay, so we're getting to the penultimate one now, I think. Who am I up to? I forgot.
Meghan French-DunbarI've lost track.
Al ElliottWho's first?
Meghan French-DunbarLeanne.
Al ElliottSo it's Lee. Lee. Okay, Lee. The CEO interviews every candidate And every new hire spends the first day with the founder. Now, there is a little bit of bracket— I put some parentheses in this. So we've said sub-90 employees. We're not talking about IBM or something like that. We're talking about 90 employees or fewer.
Leanne ElliottInterviewing, red flag. First day, green flag.
Al ElliottOh, hang on. I had to split this up on my spreadsheet. So interviewing, red. First day, green. God, we're getting— we're editing Google Docs live here, Leanne. Talk me through it.
Leanne ElliottJust, you said every single candidate.
Meghan French-DunbarYep.
Leanne ElliottYou should not have that time as a CEO. And also, you're not trusting your hiring managers, your HR department, to do those first rounds of filtering, that you're then meeting the best of the best candidates at the final round. Surely you've got better things to be doing than interviewing every single candidate for every single role that comes up. There must be better things for you to be doing. And I think it is that trusting as well. I think that's a task that lives in HR or people and culture or with the hiring manager, and you should have a system in place where you don't need to be involved. Because you know that's objective and it's going to happen as slickly without you, and you come in at a point where you're actually going to add value to those conversations. In terms of that first day, again, that might become unsustainable as you continue to grow, but I like— so maybe not the first day necessarily, but I like as part of their onboarding each candidate would spend a period of time with the founder. I think that can be really good in terms of understanding the, the vision and values of the organisation, where it's come from, where it's going. Starting that sense of kind of connecting that person's work to what the organisation does and creating meaning and purpose in that. So, I think that could be really good. I don't think it necessarily has to be on the first day, but part of the onboarding, I would say, is a green flag for me.
Al ElliottFabulous. Meghan?
Meghan French-DunbarYes to every single thing. I am— I love your wife.
Leanne ElliottOh my gosh.
Meghan French-DunbarWe are so compatible. 100%. Red flag on the hiring, green flag on the onboarding. And the example that I have of Torani Syrups, they have, I think they're over 400 employees right now, and their CEO, Melanie DelBecoq, still does a monthly onboarding for all of their new employees to talk them through the vision and values and to help them understand what it looks like to live the values every day. And that, like, she's still giving her time, making herself accessible. She's not some myth who's in the C-suite office, who's untouchable. She's down there talking to every single person that comes in the door about the things that matter most at the organisation. That's a huge green flag for me.
Leanne ElliottI love that. Yeah, well, perfect way to do it. One, one a month where all the new hires come together and it creates that cohort then as well, doesn't it? That kind of peer-to-peer support as well as a newbie. Yep.
Al ElliottBeautiful. Beautiful. Out of interest, right? So there's a TV show, I'm sure you both know about it, called The Undercover CEO, I think.
Leanne ElliottUndercover Boss.
Al ElliottUndercover Boss, that's it. And they go under and they get— just because they've heard of it, heard of it. Big company boss goes undercover, gets a beard or a hat or whatever, or a pair of glasses, looks like someone from Guess Who. Um, and, uh, and basically they find out all these things. Out of interest, do you two think— I know that's not possible in a 90-company organization, but as a principle, is that a great idea or is that just, just a great TV show?
Meghan French-DunbarThat's a terrible idea. It's awful. No, that is such— I mean, there's so many things about that that it's showing them that you don't trust them. It's showing that you have absolutely zero understanding of what is going on in the day-to-day, that they have no idea who their CEO is, that they've never even met the person. It's like this— the whole thing is just an awful setup for me. The CEO going without the guests who get up on, And spending a day here, there. I know Biggby Coffee, they're a huge coffee franchise in the US. Their CEOs, they have co-CEOs, and they often will go to franchise locations and just spend the day there working the cash registers and being with the people because they want them to be someone that everyone knows. And it's not just this, like, myth in the office. And they just like the human connection of being there on the day-to-day so they don't miss out on that. when they're just doing all of the minutiae of the CEO responsibilities. I'm going way too far down this one. Leanne?
Leanne ElliottI agree. I think it's— it's just a bit awkward you'd even have to do that in the first place, that you've lost touch that much. And like you say, visibility that much. Yeah, everything that Meghan said. Great TV, though.
Al ElliottGreat TV. Meghan, was it you and I who was nerding out about Zingerman's in Ann Arbor?
Meghan French-DunbarYes, that was us.
Al ElliottJust give us like the 90-second pitch of why we both think Zingerman's is just— am I saying it right? The best company in the world?
Meghan French-DunbarI mean, I wouldn't say best company in the world, but I would say a model, one of the best. I think the thing that I— well, I'm gonna get my nerd on here. The thing that I love about Zingerman's is instead of doing a huge franchise model where they said, here, We have a model for this deli. We can go nationwide and give this distributed ownership to all the external people. We want to go super deep in the community. So we want to build complementary businesses that— so there's a bakery that feeds the bread, there's a creamery that does the cheese now. And so they built a community of businesses with employee or team member ownership of all of the team, all of the companies within the Zingerman's community, so that it diversifies the portfolio if one of the companies goes down, you actually have ownership in the whole, and they have open book management, full transparency. It's very much a shared ownership model. It is, for me, it's what business could look like, and they're hugely successful and prioritize quality of life for all of their team members. So that's one of some of the reasons I love it. Al, why do you love Zingerman's so much?
Al ElliottBecause I read it in Small Giants by Bo Burlingham 18 years ago, That's literally it. I remember reading it and going, oh my God, this is amazing. There was Clif Bar was in there as well. Am I saying that right? Clif Bar? Yeah.
Meghan French-DunbarYeah.
Al ElliottThere was a load of companies and I don't know how many are still going, but when I brought it up with you, God, you almost stood up. You were so excited about to talk about it. So yeah.
Meghan French-DunbarAnd I got to go to the deli last year when I was in Ann Arbor doing a CEO retreat and everyone there is so All of the people who are working are so happy. And it doesn't feel faked or forced. Everyone just feels delighted to be there. And it met all of my little business wonk heart expectations. I was delighted to be there. So good.
Al ElliottWell, I don't want to get emotional about a deli here.
Meghan French-DunbarRight?
Al ElliottI've got my last one here. And if you want, we can do a bonus. But I think, to be honest, I think the rest of them are— we've covered most of them. Okay, so this one, Leanne, is you first? Is it this one?
Leanne ElliottNo, Meghan.
Al ElliottMeghan, this one. All right, so you're at a company and there is a trophy for the best spreadsheet of the month. It's a true story.
Meghan French-DunbarRed flag.
Al ElliottIt's not difficult, is it?
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottWell, actually, let me just find out why you think that's a red flag.
Meghan French-DunbarThere's so many red flags in this particular one. I'll just like choose maybe one or two points, one being I mean, if it's like a quirky, playful thing, I don't know. But spreadsheets aren't everyone's skill. They do not— everyone doesn't need to be working on a spreadsheet depending on whatever their role is. And so to be giving out a trophy for something that some people aren't proficient in because they don't need to be for their role somehow makes it this situation where people are feeling like they are deficient for absolutely no reason. And it breeds the whole individualistic— internal competition situation.
Al ElliottI suppose to a certain extent, it's also promoting you spending more time on putting macros and VLOOKUPs and all kinds of stuff on your spreadsheet than actually doing the fricking work.
Leanne ElliottI think it's often the question that I ask people that they go, huh? It's like, it's probably where you should have started, is what behavior are you trying to reinforce? And how is that serving your people and your business? So if you have a little competition and it's rewarding behaviors that you really want to see in your business, maybe it's around great managers or great customer service or whatever else, and yeah, cool, that's nice. I'd also like to see maybe, you know, things for the person who sets hard boundaries and, and, you know, doesn't continually work late and took all of their annual leave this year. Good for you. Um, it's just, yeah, what behaviors are you trying to reinforce? And start with that rather than, oh, wouldn't it be so cool if you had a trophy for spreadsheets?
Meghan French-DunbarLOL. Barry-Wehmiller, they have a monthly Barry-Wehmiller, they buy distressed manufacturing facilities, I think, all over the world. And they have— and we went and toured one of their facilities once, and they have a monthly award, which is for the person who has expressed or lived the company value to its highest, which is nominated by peers.
Al ElliottBeautiful.
Meghan French-DunbarAnd they have an entire wall instead of employee of the month, like someone who's hit all the KPIs or the revenue goals or blah, blah, blah. It is, here's the people that are actually living our values in the day-to-day.
Leanne ElliottThat's the way to do it, isn't it?
Al ElliottThat's the way you do it. What was that company called again?
Meghan French-DunbarBarry-Wehmiller.
Al ElliottBarry— Barry-Wehmiller.
Meghan French-DunbarI'll send you the—
Al ElliottYeah, the link will be in the show notes. I clearly can't speak.
Meghan French-DunbarNo, it's a very strange name.
Al ElliottOh, this is amazing. This is amazing. Thank you so, so much for playing along with us, for putting up with all of my mistakes and everything here. It was brilliant. Looking through now while you were talking, I was listening to you, but I was also looking through this. And we did originally have you two disagreeing on one, but then you ended up just agreeing on every single one of them. I wonder, is it weird to put you on the spot and say, what do you think is the biggest green flag in a company?
Leanne ElliottTraining their managers. Oh, you— I'm gonna kiss you on the lips.
Al ElliottDo you know what I mean? Me or Meghan?
Leanne ElliottThe person who's training their managers. Obviously, that's highly inappropriate.
Al ElliottI'm trying to compose myself. Meghan, what would you say was your biggest green flag in a company?
Meghan French-DunbarI mean, Leanne, I just, I see you. Training managers, but training managers, I mean, I'm sure we're on the same page about human skills like communication, listening, empathy, all of these incredible things. And I mean, employee ownership is a big one for me.
Al ElliottWe need to bring you back and talk to you about that because I think there's a certain— we've seen a little bubbling around of people thinking about employee ownership, and I'm not sure everyone's doing it the right way. So we definitely need to bring you back and talk about that. Meghan French-Dunbar, author, all-round author, consultant. You've probably done TED Talks. You've probably been— you've probably been in the White House. I'm sure you've done all of those things.
Meghan French-DunbarAll of those things.
Al ElliottI don't know whether to ask if that's true or not. Have you? Have you?
Leanne ElliottIt is.
Meghan French-DunbarNot the current one. Yeah, I wouldn't be proud if it was the current one.
Leanne ElliottNo, I might not still go. If something's on fire, you want to take a closer look, don't you?
Al ElliottAnyway, I was about to wrap up there and say, If you want to go and— I say if you, you will want to go and follow Meghan. Meghan is absolutely incredible, friend of the show, just beautiful person. We are hopefully going to go and meet you at some point if we are ever allowed in the States.
Leanne ElliottNot at this point. You might need to wait a couple of years.
Al ElliottIf you have your own red flag, green flag or something, or you want to ask about these people, then you ask these people, then please check the show notes. Links to get in touch with them are there. Leanne, anything else to say before we—
Leanne ElliottJust to say, come and join the conversation. LinkedIn, Spotify. We're loving all the comments we're getting on Spotify now.
Meghan French-DunbarI know.
Leanne ElliottKeep them coming. Love it, love it, love it. We do look at everyone and we reply to everyone as well. Not always necessarily like immediately, but probably within a day or so, right?
Al ElliottYeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottLet us know your own workplace red flags or green flags, but perhaps you just started a new job and you're like, I'm not sure if there's a red flag or not. Get in touch. We'll give you our thoughts. And we'll be back on Thursday with Chris Lovett.
Al ElliottYes, we will. Chris Lovett, best hair in the business. Really, really great story. About 5 years ago, he just went, fuck it, I'm not doing this anymore, and went around the world. And he's written 2 books ever since. So 2 things we need you to do. First of all, if you did like this, then go and leave us a review. Secondly, if you did like this, then go and subscribe to Unbehaved wherever you get your podcasts. The second best podcast in the world.
Leanne ElliottYes, absolutely.
Al ElliottBehind Diary of a CEO, of course.
Meghan French-DunbarYeah, for sure.
Leanne ElliottThat's a red flag. For sure, if that's your favourite podcast. And of course, next Tuesday, come back, we have another Summer Session. We are going to— I'm going head-to-head with Danny Wareham to play Corporate Family Fortunes.
Al ElliottWe'll see you soon.
Meghan French-DunbarBye!
Al ElliottSay goodbye, Meghan. Bye!