Episode 138 · 22 October 2024 · 56:14

October theory explained, finding purpose, and EY's latest scandal. PLUS! Dr Audrey Tang's Hot Take on burnout - This Week in Work, 22nd October 2024

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October Theory: the new New Year?
news roundup#october-theory #new-year #resolutions #goal-setting
Finding purpose after burnout (Suneel Gupta)
news roundup#burnout #purpose #career #suneel-gupta
EY's cheating scandal
news roundup#ey #cheating #scandal #ethics
Hot Take: Dr Audrey Tang on burnout and systemic change
hot take#burnout #systemic-change #audrey-tang #hot-take
Workplace Surgery: Should you report a colleague who automated their job?
workplace surgery#automation #colleague #reporting #ethics
Workplace Surgery: Introverts vs forced social events
workplace surgery#introverts #social-events #workplace-culture #forced-fun
Workplace Surgery: Staying visible while working remotely
workplace surgery#remote-work #visibility #hybrid-work #career

Show notes

October Theory Explained, Finding Purpose & EY's Cheating Scandal — with Dr Audrey Tang's Hot Take on Burnout

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down why October is becoming the new January for goal-setting, how a founder who sold his company for $20 million still felt burnt out, and why EY employees were fired for multitasking their training. Plus, Dr Audrey Tang joins for a Hot Take on why individual burnout solutions are only half the battle.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. October Theory — the new New Year's resolution? The Wall Street Journal reports on a TikTok trend where influencers treat October as a reset month for new routines, journaling, and affirmations. Leanne connects it to the "fresh start effect" — and with 70 days left in the year, there's a psychological argument for not waiting until January. Source →

2. Finding purpose after burnout — lessons from Suneel Gupta Al highlights a CNBC article featuring Suneel Gupta, who sold his wellness company for $20 million yet still felt burnt out and unhappy. The takeaway: money and success don't automatically deliver meaning — purpose comes from getting clear on your reason for working, not just the outcome. Source →

3. EY's cheating scandal — multitasking gone wrong The Times reports that EY fired employees for streaming multiple professional development courses simultaneously, violating the firm's global code of conduct. Leanne flags the psychology: multitasking isn't just ethically dubious — it's cognitively harmful too. Source →

🔥 Hot Take: Dr Audrey Tang on Burnout

Dr Audrey Tang — Chartered Psychologist, TEDx speaker, and award-winning author — returns to argue that individual burnout solutions like stress management workshops are only half the battle. Real change comes from fixing systemic issues: taking a "psychosocial safety" approach, similar to physical health and safety, where the focus is on preventing root causes rather than treating symptoms.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

Automation dilemma: "My colleague automated their job without telling management. Should I report them to HR?"
Introvert overload: "My company keeps forcing social events on us. As an introvert, I'm drained. What do I do?"
Remote invisibility: "I chose to stay 100% remote in a hybrid company and now I feel invisible. How do I stay visible?"

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.

Al ElliottA reminder, if you like hearing guest interviews and hearing stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then our Thursday episodes are right up your street. We bring you a brand new interview every single Thursday.

Leanne ElliottAnd if you'd like to keep up to date with the latest news around the workplace, then you are in the right place. Every Tuesday, We bring you our weekly news roundup and of course our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I answer your questions. And we're also back with our new segment, Hot Takes, where we uncover the truth and lies of work with the help of psychologists, thought leaders, and influencers. We're asking them for their boldest insights, whether it's a controversial prediction or an unpopular opinion, nothing is off limits. What's really happening in the world of work, what's broken, and what is coming next? We have started the month Very strong. We brought you Phil Agnew, Sonia Thompson, Oliver Yonchev, and today we are keeping that flow going with none other than Dr. Audrey Tang, a chartered psychologist, leadership trainer, and speaker who recently delivered her first TEDx talk. She has over 30 years of experience teaching practical tools for wellbeing and is also a multi-award-winning author and host of 2 wellness shows, Mental Health Matters and Skits and Quibbles on E360 TV. Network. Today, Audrey shares her hot take on burnout and what organizations are getting wrong when it comes to supporting employee mental health. It is juicy. Stay tuned for that.

Al ElliottDr. Audrey, I need to know your skincare. How have you been doing it for 30 years? You look about 20. Amazing. Anyway, before we crack on with all of that, it's your favorite time of the week, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottIt is, it is my favorite time of the week, Al. It's time for the news roundup. Cue the jingle.

Al ElliottJingle is being queued. Lee, what have you seen?

Leanne ElliottI've got a new term. It's been a while.

Al ElliottAll right, go, go, go, go.

Leanne ElliottIt's from TikTok.

Al ElliottOf course, they always are.

Leanne ElliottYou ready?

Al ElliottYep.

Leanne ElliottOctober theory.

Al ElliottOkay, I wouldn't even know how to start with this. Is it something like spunk— spunkin'? I can't say that word. Pumpkin spice latte.

Leanne ElliottDo you know what? It is kind of related to our earlier conversation on pumpkin spiced lattes.

Al ElliottNot spunkin'.

Leanne ElliottNot spunkin'. That's something entirely different. Um, yes, the Wall Street Journal reported on, on this this week. Um, the new trend on social media platforms such as TikTok called October Theory. Basically, influencers are using October as a reset button, encouraging people to treat the month as a time to start fresh and set new goals, much like we do typically at the start of the new year. So these influencers argue that October feels more natural for goal setting because the seasons are changing and the year is coming to an end, making it a great time for reflection and change. For example, Sarah Stone, a 35-year-old realtor, is using this time to declutter her home and eliminate bad habits like impulse shopping. Do you know what else will help with that, Sarah? Moving to Bosnia. Meanwhile, influencer Alison Bucheleris.

Al ElliottOh, Bucheleris.

Leanne ElliottBucheleris, I don't know how to say that. Bucheleris?

Al ElliottLet's go with that.

Leanne ElliottAlison is focused on establishing new routines like journaling, setting affirmations, and waking up earlier. Hoping that by January she'll have already cemented these habits. So they believe that by getting ahead now, they'll be set up for success in the new year, avoiding the January rush. So what is driving this trend? Well, the article suggests it's a combination of factors. The stress of daily life, an uneven job market, and inflation are making people look for areas of control, and setting goals in October when the seasons change and the end of the year looms feels like a great way to do that. Laurie Kramer, a clinical psychologist, also notes that the introspective mood of autumn, along with major life events like the academic year starting, makes October the perfect time for self-reflection. As a psychologist, I must admit how this does make me smile, because what these influencers have done has stumbled across a little psychological phenomenon that we know as the fresh start effect, which we have talked about On the podcast before.

Al ElliottI don't remember.

Leanne ElliottIf you, if you missed that one, or if you just need a little reminder, the fresh start effect is a psychological phenomenon when people feel more motivated to make certain changes at temporal landmarks. So basically moments in time that seem significant to us, like the beginning of the year, after a birthday, or even at the start of a new season. In the article, Wendy Wood, a professor of psychology and business at the University of Southern California, agrees and points out that the best time to change behavior is during a big life change, such as moving to a new house or starting a new job or relationship, regardless of whether it is January or October. So essentially what is happening is these landmarks are providing a psychological sense of a clean slate, allowing individuals to dissociate from their past imperfections and take a big picture view of their lives. And when people perceive a break from their past selves, they feel more capable of achieving regular goals, whether related to health personal growth or work. So is October theory a real thing? Not really. It's more that October aligns with the fresh start effect. Al's thoughts?

Al ElliottWell, I think, um, today, October the 21st, is 70 days until the end of the year or the 1st of January. So yes, we've definitely got Christmas coming up, or holidays if you're in the, in the US or North America. Um, but, uh, but they say that 70 days. And, and I was, this was a tweet by Uncle Shan, Shan Puri, I think he's a great place. He's my First Million co-host. Um, and he said, 70 days left is enough time to get into shape. It's enough time to start a new business, enough time to leave that job. Um, and also he said that only losers wait until January to make these kind of changes, which was, uh, which he wrote it all in caps as well, which I don't know because he is a little older. He's not as old as me, but he's a little older. So perhaps he just accidentally wrote them in caps.

Leanne ElliottWhat are you shouting at me for?

Al ElliottYeah. The way that your mum will accidentally send you a text going, are you coming home? It's like, yeah. Yes, yes, okay, calm down, calm down.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, there is some science behind that actually, in terms of actually changing habits, forming new habits. The time period is about 3 months to kind of go through that, that, um, kind of neurological wiring, that brain wiring. So, um, yeah, he's not, he's not wrong, but he sounds like he was a bit aggressive in how he expressed it.

Al ElliottI think it was probably a little tongue-in-cheek, but, um, who knows, Ashan, who knows.

Leanne ElliottWhat have you seen this week, Al?

Al ElliottWell, I've been reading CNBC. Not quite sure why, but it came up on my newsfeed. I don't know what the— the problem with those Brits is that we look at some of the— we can look at some of the websites and the newspapers over here and we know instinctively, all right, that skews towards Conservative, that skews towards Labour. In the US, I never quite know whether it's like— as someone who probably identifies more, more Democrat than Republican, should I be reading this? But anyway, I did. And the question they posed was, what makes us happy at work? A lot of people think it's down to earning enough, but there's a guy who's a Harvard lecturer and a multimillionaire. His name is Sunil Gupta, and he says finding happiness at work isn't about making more money. And he should know because he felt more burnt out after selling his company for $20 million. Gupta says we've got it all wrong about happiness and success at work because he sold his wellness company for $20 million and he felt completely burnt out and lost, proving that money doesn't really buy happiness in the workplace. After a bit of soul searching and deep thinking, and let's be honest, with $20 million in the bank, he's got time. He's got the time. He found that the secret to being happy at work was to have a clear idea idea of your purpose at work. Lee, we'll come back to you in just a second. You just pipe down while I finish this. He, he calls it finding your centre, which is what Hindus call dharma, apparently. And I think his granddad was the one who was telling— helping him through these ideas. It's like your personal sort of compass that keeps you going when things get tough. When you know why you're doing something, then your work has meaning and can often stop feeling like work. So if you're a manager or a leader or a business owner, the message here is to ensure you communicate The reason why your teams are doing what they're doing. Quick aside, as I mentioned before, Leanne knew all this, and reason is one of the 7 Rs in the RX7 method that she's developed for creating better workplaces. Drop us a quick line if you want to know more about this. They all begin with R.

Leanne ElliottShameless plug there, Al.

Al ElliottRX7, the thrill of the shill. Anyway, so once you become clear on the reason, everything else seems to fit into place and you will feel happier. This is backed up by a guy called Frank Martella. He's a Finnish psychological researcher. You'd think I'd know how to say the word psychology, wouldn't you? And he's a philosopher, and he researched why Finland was the happiest country in the world, and he found that having a clear purpose was one of the 3 main factors that made Finnish people enjoy life. More advice from Gupta includes don't work harder, play more. Again, with $20 million in the bank, it's probably slightly easier to do that. He does say that blurring the lines between work and play is more than a recipe for happiness. It's a recipe for success. Secondly, interesting. Stop obsessing over time management. Instead, focus on managing your energy. Now, this could actually be quite game-changing for how you run your team, especially when you talk about the energy and you look at where perhaps someone is more effective during the day. Perhaps Jeff's better in the morning and Sandra's better in the afternoon. Maybe just have a look and see how you can schedule things around those people. And finally, Gupta suggests doing less work but putting more heart into it. His exact words, which are kind of poetic, says, when it comes to your dharma— remember, that's your center, that's your purpose— it's much better to be full-hearted and partly scheduled than fully scheduled and half-hearted. I quite liked that. Perhaps the most controversial advice is this. Gupta says we need to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Running from pain means missing out on opportunities. His exact words: if you run from the pain, you also separate yourself from possibilities. So maybe the secret to happiness at work is to have interesting problems and know exactly why you are solving those problems. Lee, thoughts?

Leanne ElliottYeah, totes.

Al ElliottGreat. Let's move on. Was there anything? But to be fair, I was asking for your thoughts, but maybe that's just— you go, I agree, let's move on.

Leanne ElliottYes. I mean, a few, a few things. It's worth reminding that happiness is a state. It comes and goes. What we're probably talking about really is fulfilment, a sense of purpose and meaning. That is something that stays with us as as part of our identity. Focusing too much on happiness can be a double-edged sword because if people are unhappy, then they can start to question lots of things in life that they might not necessarily need to. In terms of the research, yeah, of course, having meaning in our lives helps us to feel fulfilled and therefore more content or happy. In terms of the actual hard data, what we absolutely know for sure, is actually, um, and I've mentioned this so many times before, the massive Harvard Longitudinal Study that's still ongoing. I think we just had an 80-year check-in of what actually drives happiness. They're following people throughout their lives for 80 years now, and actually the one thing that actually really does influence happiness is the quality of our relationships. Linking that back to purpose, you can see how if you work in an organization with people that you respect and share that value, share that purpose, share that mission, and then you're going to have really positive and productive relationships at work and therefore probably, um, experience a state of happiness more, more frequently. Um, so yeah, that's my thoughts. But yeah, has he gone to one of those— were you saying the other week about how some of these CEOs go to like the desert and take some kind of, um, maybe happy-inducing drug to help them reflect? Is that—

Al ElliottI don't think so, but it's very, very possible. I think just one thing to kind of remember when you're queuing up for your spunky lice latte or whatever it's called, um, is that the guy who did the, did the thing on Finland, the study on Finland, he pointed out that Finland is the least unhappy country, which therefore de facto makes it happy. But that's something to think about. Is it better to be not unhappy than to be happy?

Leanne ElliottThat's one to reflect on on your next, uh, desert break, isn't it? Also, and just as you said, in terms of money, absolutely, $50,000 or about £40,000 to £45,000 is about, it's about your limit, um, in terms of, um, money happy, uh, money correlating with happiness positively. So the more money you have, the happier you are. After that threshold of about $50,000, it doesn't really have any impact anymore.

Al ElliottInteresting, interesting.

Leanne ElliottSo yeah, he's not wrong.

Al ElliottHe's not wrong. He's not wrong. Incidentally, yet another Short ad break for our RX-7. Leanne talked about relationships there. That's another one of the 7 Rs. You definitely need to contact us about the RX-7. I think you'll need it in your workplace. Lee, what have you seen this week, darling?

Leanne ElliottWell, these people might need it in their workplace. Have you heard about the, uh, the, um, EY cheating scandal?

Al ElliottNo.

Leanne ElliottNo. So, um, this week The Times— I'm getting quite highbrow, am I? Yeah, reading this week, aren't I? The Times reported that EY, formerly Ernst Young recently fired several employees in the US for streaming multiple training videos at once.

Al ElliottWhat?

Leanne ElliottSo these employees were basically expected to complete a certain number of professional development courses, uh, by streaming videos of, of said development courses each year. Um, they found themselves in a bit of a pickle, uh, for trying to multitask by watching more than one session simultaneously.

Al ElliottBrilliant, brilliant.

Leanne ElliottThought you'd like that. So according to EY, this violated their global code of conduct. The firm described the behavior as an ethical breach.

Al ElliottSteady.

Leanne ElliottEmphasizing the importance of integrity in everything they do. But here's the thing— some of these fired employees claimed that there was no clear rule at the time about streaming multiple videos, and EY's own systems allowed it. One employee even mentioned that the firm had encouraged them to squeeze in as many training sessions as possible, which made them think they were following the spirit of the guidance. The company later clarified in an email that employees were expected to focus solely on one training session at a time, but by that point, the damage for some had already been done. This does come off the heels of EY's hefty $100 million fine in 2022 from the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission for another ethical breach. Employees had been caught sharing answers during an ethics exam.

Al ElliottThat's amazing.

Leanne ElliottCheeky, cheeky. Um, so it does seem that this incident has made the firm extra cautious about staff behavior, leading them to take swift disciplinary action in these latest cases. Interestingly, EY has also been tightening controls more generally, with reports in the UK they're monitoring swipe card data to ensure employees are actually coming into the office. Sigh. One fired consultant told The Times that there hadn't been any warnings against streaming multiple sessions when the events occurred, and another pointed out the irony of being encouraged to multitask on training while being equipped with 3 monitors. Um, I actually read at some point in the article that that was so they could, um, participate in multiple Zoom calls at the same, same time. Um, so EY, it seems, may have sent out some mixed messages to their staff, pushing them to meet quotas while failing to clearly communicate the rules of engagement. What is the takeaway from this massive Big Four? You might be thinking, what's this got to do with me, Leanne, as a small business owner? Well, for small business owners and managers, it does raise some important questions. Are we expecting too much from our teams? Are our own processes and expectations actually setting employees up to fail. If we push people to meet targets without giving them the right support, we might be encouraging shortcuts even without realizing it.

Al ElliottFrom—

Leanne ElliottI just want a quick sidebar. From a psychological perspective, we also know that multitasking is not only harmful, um, it doesn't actually exist. Multitasking isn't a thing. Multitasking is attention splitting, and research shows that it can reduce productivity and lead to higher levels of stress. So actually encouraging people to multitask is a really stupid idea. Um, that's the point. If we put too much pressure on people to juggle tasks, then yeah, they're gonna, they're gonna cut corners. Al, thoughts?

Al ElliottFirst of all, bravo. I love that kind of stuff where someone finds a little loophole. I really like that. Uh, sorry that you got fired for it, but, um, to be honest, it sounded like you are gonna be better off as a consultant on your own. Because if you can find— what is it Bill Gates says? I always employ people who are lazy and Um, what's the word when they're intelligent? Yeah, intelligent and lazy because they'll always find shortcuts. So I think, I don't think you need to worry too much about your career. Um, secondly, the fact that the people don't want to watch the videos or they feel like they've got to just scoot, squeeze through them, scoot through them as quickly as possible. Maybe they're boring. Maybe they aren't fit for purpose. Maybe the culture is wrong. And you've got to think about this. If this is 2 counts now. of ethical, um, what's the word when you don't do it right?

Leanne ElliottBreach.

Al ElliottBreach. Ethical breach. Um, maybe that's really damaging. Maybe you don't want to go to EY because that's perhaps the way things are done around here. What is it Leanne says? Culture is the, uh, the worst habits tolerated. Is that right?

Leanne ElliottBehaviors.

Al ElliottWorst behaviors tolerated. Maybe EY just isn't, isn't the place to send your consultancy budgets.

Leanne ElliottUm, maybe go and find those people who've been fired and get them Yeah, I think it's a typical case, isn't it, of an organization blaming the individual rather than going, wait a minute, did we do anything to encourage people to— I agree, are they, are they boring videos? Are they any useful? Do they add any value to my working life if I sit and watch them? Um, am I being pushed to hit, to do so many because my manager has a target of people that need to do through, get through professional training? Um, it sounds like you've got very high expectations and not enough time to meet them. So you're finding, finding, you know, places to cut corners. I do enjoy though that people were cheating in an ethics exam. I think that is an excellent ethical conversation discussion right there. Yeah, I agree. Something going on in the culture at EY.

Al ElliottThis is not an ethical dilemma for you because after this break, we have got an amazing hot take from Dr. Audrey Tang. So do the right thing and come back after this very short break.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's Us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics. It is.

Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Lunch wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.

Leanne ElliottWelcome back. For our hot take today, we are thrilled to have Dr. Audrey Tang back with us. Audrey is a chartered psychologist, TEDx speaker, and the founder of the Wellbeing Media Studio, where she hosts 2 global wellness shows. She's also a leadership development coach, an award-winning author, and her latest book, The Leader's Guide to Wellbeing recently won the Wellness and Wellbeing category of the Business Book Awards 2024. With a wealth of experience spanning over 3 decades in leadership training, mental health, and resilience, Audrey brings a unique perspective to workplace wellbeing. Her hot take will challenge how we think about individual solutions for stress and resilience in the workplace and why it's time to focus on systemic change. Also, listen out for her very interesting take on rust-out. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me back. It's always a pleasure. One of my biggest bugbears, and this is something that I've had as a leadership trainer for many, many years, is individual solutions. So me going in and giving all the stress-busting tools and resilience-building tools and all of that kind of support for the individual is only half the story. If we don't do anything to change the actual environment and system that caused all the problems in the first place, all that happens is I give people a number of tools that arm them a little bit better and send them straight back to a toxic environment, and nothing changes. And that's one of the frustrations that I think myself and a number of trainers have had for a very, very long time. And one of the solutions that— it was Karen Scholes who's been working on this area. It's something called psychosocial safety.

Al ElliottOkay.

Leanne ElliottAnd this is taking a health and safety approach to psychological issues. And the best example I can give here is if I were to go to work and I fell down a hole, health and safety would come along and fix the hole. Health and safety would not come along and say, oh, well, we need to give you sessions on getting out of that hole, or we need to give you sessions on how to walk around that hole. No, no, they fix the hole. And yet, when it comes to burnout, which is also like a great big hole, we sit there and go, oh, well, we'll just give you some sessions to deal with that. It doesn't work that way. And that's probably my biggest issue. But thankfully, it does seem to be being addressed now. And I think there has been some movement in some of the bigger places like, like, um, CIPD and that kind of thing. But I don't think it's CIPD yet to take a bit more of a health and safety approach to psychological safety. And I think that's a— it's a really good start. It's so much easier to blame the individual. And also, it's really only when I've used that metaphor of falling down a hole or tripping over carpet or something actually practical and voicing the stupidity of giving somebody lessons on how to climb out of a hole, people actually go, Oh, that's what it is. That's where the issue is. So I don't think actually sometimes people could even see it as an issue. And it's only when you can really explain it and give a metaphor that shows the ridiculousness of making it all about the individual and all about the individual changing and doing what they need to do rather than the problem being fixed that people suddenly go, oh, that's what they mean by fixing the system.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnother thing which has been talked about for some time, but is again only now coming into people's understanding in the workplace, is something that Paula Coles, who's a psychotherapist, has been banging on about since 2018. So, this has been going on for some time, and that's rust-out is as bad as burnout. So, everyone talks about burnout. Oh, burnout this, burnout that. We all get burnout. Actually, being underappreciated, underused, left out to rust, It's just as bad because when you think about the window of tolerance model, which I use, it's from trauma research, it's by Dan Siegel, I believe. An individual has a sort of an optimum level of stimulation that they can deal with. Too much and it goes into overwhelm and anxiety, too little and it goes into depression and apathy and feeling meh. That's exactly the same thing with the workplace. Too much and we're feeling overwhelmed and we're feeling anxious and stressed. But actually, too little can be just as problematic because we sit there and go, well, what's the point? No one cares about what I do. Why should I bother? And again, linking to my first point about the system needing changing, the rust-out element, the feeling meh, the feeling underappreciated, is much more under the control of the leader and the organization than perhaps the burnout is. Because it can be up to leaders and organizations to recognize, well, what is going on on the floor?

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottWhat are my teams doing? How are they contributing? Or are they just coming in, putting their head down, getting on with it, and going home again? What is wrong with the motivation there? Let's do something about it. So, that's another thing that is slowly being more recognized, that burnout is— yes, we understand, and that's great. That's only taken about 10 years to be talked about. But underappreciation and undermotivation is just as bad.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottBut one more thing which kind of relates to burnout, which I'm only playing with at the moment, but fingers crossed. I've pitched a book idea for this, so we'll see what happens. Burnout may not be work's problem. Now, bear with me on this one, because burnout was originally— the term was coined, it's now known as compassion fatigue, but it was coined in the health professions.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnd this is where people were feeling anxious and overwhelmed. It was affecting their performance because of all of the care that they had to give. And so they were feeling burnt out. And then that word has been transferred into the workplace in general and so on. And we generally associate burnout with work. But in my own experience, when I've been coaching clients who all often recommend it to me because, oh, they're burnt out, they want to leave their jobs, all of those sorts of things, signed off sick, etc., when you actually speak to them, work is the thing that they are actually really enjoying. Work is the thing where they're getting praise. Work is the thing where they are talked to as adults if they've got young children. Work is the thing where they're improving their skills, or they're going on trips, or they're doing something that really speaks to what they're passionate about. But actually, what's causing the burnout may be something that's going on in the home. It may be relationship burnout. It may be religious burnout. It may be any of those other things that make up to us being this holistic being. And unfortunately, being signed off sick and therefore not being part of the one thing that they're actually enjoying and getting praised for and being motivated to do is making the problem worse. So, I'm looking at potentially trying to extend the idea of burnout even further and moving it into Social burnout, religious burnout, financial burnout, and so on. Because we only need to think about it ourselves. Sometimes we might have had a brilliant day at work, and then we're thinking, oh my goodness, I just don't want to spend time with so-and-so later on. That's not work-related, but that could be social burnout. Religious burnout is sometimes where you've just really lost faith in your religion. It may be because you were brought up religious, in some denomination, and for some reason, perhaps what's going on in the world— and we've had a lot of natural disasters, we've had a lot of man-made disasters, we've had a lot to deal with— you're getting to the stage where you don't believe in it anymore. Or sometimes— and there are some denominations which can take their practices a little bit too far and cause further psychological issues It can be that person recognizing, I've been brought up to think this my whole life, and now I absolutely cannot agree with this particular religion. Just as a simple example, and this is probably very outdated now, but it would be the church's stance on homosexuality. And you can sit there and go, well, I can't, I can't believe it. But yet, because I connected and believed in that religion and all the teachings, how do I connect those 2 conflicting views? How do I address that cognitive dissonance? And that is affecting quite a lot of people. I mean, this isn't so much religious burnout, but it's an example that I can give. I was teaching overseas students at the time where their country was undergoing a lot of issues.

Al ElliottHmm.

Leanne ElliottAnd because they were in the UK, they were watching the problems as the BBC News were putting them across. And they said to me, I, I never see any of this. We're never shown any of this. There's no— we're not allowed to see any of this. And I didn't realize this is how other people perceive what's going on in my country. And it's the same sort of thing when you have believed in something for such a long time. And for some reason you can't believe in it anymore, then it can cause some real psychological conflict. I've seen people go through this and they're questioning, well, I can't go to my church this week because I just can't sit there and listen to this person preaching something which I know either personally to be hypocritical or something like that, or asking me to turn against People who I'm friends with and who I, I can't see doing anything wrong or bad or anything like that. And, and it is an issue that just needs to be explored a little bit further because religion, exactly as you say, is a huge part of someone's upbringing. It's a huge part of something they may have been brought into. It's like culture without even questioning it. And Then to have to question it, especially as an adult, because sometimes what can happen is you don't think about it for a while and then suddenly you go back to church and then, or, or whatever, wherever it is. Um, and then suddenly you're thinking, hang on a minute, I, I can't quite connect with this anymore.

Al ElliottI really liked Audrey's analogies there. They, they, they kind of drilled home very, very clearly and easily, I think, the difference between, uh, falling down a hole And psychological safety burnout. I think I really like this idea that you that you're not just sort of offering ways in which you can tackle burnout; you're trying to avoid it in the first place. And it is the workplaces; it's their it's their their responsibility, our responsibility as employers to actually address the sort of the larger toxic environment ideas that will cause stress and burnout.

Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. I mean, we've built an entire business and cons. Consultancy around helping organizations create environments that support positive employee engagement and well-being. Like, well-being interventions aren't about the individual solely, they're about the environment. And it's, it's, it's really surprising when we speak to clients and they're like, what, what, what do you mean? It's just about relationships and it's more about like the resources we provide people. And yeah, it's, it's a, it's an organizational issue, um, first and foremost. So yeah, love that, that Audrey is pushing that. She has the best analogies, though. Absolutely brilliant, the, uh, the way she described that. I also liked, um, her introducing us to psychosocial safety, um, as a new approach and the concept of that where mental health is treated similarly to physical safety. Again, going back to awesome analogies. Um, it is a really important step forward. I have heard of some organizations doing that. I think, was it, um, Jaguar Land Rover that we spoke to who are starting to take that approach, um, and it seems to be working really, really positively. There are, um, you know, practical examples in the workplace where this health and safety approach to mental health, um, could be implemented really effectively. Um, I will leave a link in the show notes because we have talked about that with some other guests, um, including Amy McCowan actually on our wellbeing episode about, um, the organizational approach to this. So I'll leave them Leave them there. But it's, it's nice for, um, such a prominent psychologist to be, to be introducing us all to, to these terms to really help us, um, expand and, uh, move the conversation forward.

Al ElliottAbsolutely. And as I say, apart from the rust out, or aside from the rust out, uh, which again I finally understood, and I'm so sorry, love, you've explained it before and I don't think I fully grasped it. And then when Dr. Audrey explained it, I was like, yep, I get it.

Leanne ElliottI get it.

Al ElliottFair.

Leanne ElliottYou just made it—

Al ElliottShe's an award winner.

Leanne ElliottAuthor and psychologist, it's fair.

Al ElliottTo be fair, I think I only— I need to hear it 3 or 4 times to fully understand it, and that's probably the 4th time, so I got that. Um, there was this question that, uh, that Audrey talked about saying, how can businesses support employees who are experiencing burnout from external factors? My question is not necessarily to be answered today, but I'd be, as a business owner, be going, should I? Is that even any of my business? Am I going to be intrusive if I start going into certain to and trying to support people who got burnout because of religion or because of their relationship at home or something. I mean, that's a tough one and perhaps one for another, another episode, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottI think it's definitely a follow-up conversation. I think what, what I really liked about what, um, Audrey said on that and, and will accept immediately without hesitation is that burnout isn't just a work problem. Um, and I know people like Kate Donovan from Fry the Burnout podcast has been talking about this for a long time, uh, that the, you know, the official definition that we've We've got from, um, who's it from? The, um, the organization, the World Health Organization. That's the one. Who? Oh man, I just did that. Yeah, no, you should. You absolutely should.

Al ElliottCarry on.

Leanne ElliottUm, but yes, Kate Donovan makes a point that this official definition, um, doesn't factor in single moms, people who, who might be, um, experiencing significant and prolonged stress but not necessarily through work. So I think that's, yeah, again, a really great way to, to expand the conversation about burnout.

Al ElliottFabulous. We're back again next week with another hot take. I don't think— I think we've got a couple in the bag, but I'm not sure which one you're going to choose. So I'm excited to find out who it is. Lee, it is now time for my favourite time of the week. It's the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne, are you ready for question number 1?

Leanne ElliottLet's do it.

Al ElliottSo I'm a data analyst and I've recently discovered that my colleague Who has the same role and salary as me has automated most of their work. They're now actually only working about 4 hours a day while I'm putting in a full 8, 9-hour days to meet the same deadlines. The thing is, my work involves different type of analysis that can't be automated the same way. I have looked into it. I bet you have. They're getting praise from management for their exceptional— I love this kind of stuff— for their exceptional productivity and taking on extra projects in their free time while I'm being asked why I can't handle more work like they do. They haven't told our manager about the automation. Everyone just assumes they're incredibly efficient. Should I report this to HR or our manager? Part of me feels it's unfair. They're essentially working part-time for full-time pay. But you did just say they took on other projects, so maybe. But another part thinks that they would be pretty— this would be petty since they are delivering good work. P.S., they just got a glowing performance review while I was told to improve my efficiency. Leanne, a thorny one for you. What are your thoughts?

Leanne ElliottOh, I feel, I feel for you. I do feel for you. That's frustrating, isn't it? Um, oh, it's really interesting, this, isn't it? I can see this is, this is an interesting ethical discussion and debate. Um, I can see more and more of this happening as well with, with AI being more commonplace and more and more people using it. Um, so what is the question? Should you tell your manager or report it to HR? Yeah, should you go to HR or someone and tell them what this person In the first instance, I'd probably say no, because my thought is always in terms of, as we've talked about already, you know, relationships are one of the biggest drivers of our happiness, contentment, fulfillment at work. Kind of blowing that relationship up, and you will blow that relationship up if you, if you do snitch on, um, on this person.

Al ElliottSnitches get stitches.

Leanne ElliottWell, you might not get stitches, but you probably won't be very liked for a little while. Um, so yeah, with it, before you blow it up, and, and probably irreparable really, it's, it's a hard betrayal, it's a really hard emotion to, to overcome. I would suggest more go and speak to this person, go and speak to them in terms of what other projects they're doing. You're right, Al, it might be that actually they've picked up loads of other projects and now do have a full workload again. Um, you could talk to them about— you say you've looked into automating some of your stuff, maybe they can, they can help you. Yeah. Think about how to automate your, your things differently. Perhaps you could encourage them to come clean to the management team with a view that it might help them get a promotion into some job that will help build these efficiencies across the organization or help people to be more efficient. I think it requires a one-on-one conversation with this person, maybe appealing to their, um, their expertise, their, their sense of fairness, um, that perhaps there is something that they can do to maybe even this playing field a little bit. I mean, if, I mean, if you wanted to report it to management, you could. Of course you could. And there is an argument that, yes, this is a little bit, um, what's the word, Al, when you're not being honest? Dishonest.

Al ElliottIt's a tough word to remember. Yeah.

Leanne ElliottThere is an argument, you know, dishonesty and lack of integrity and And all that kind of thing. And yeah, I get it. And in terms of how HR and management are going to react, it really depends on the organization. I'll be honest, if somebody came to me and said, this is what I've been doing, I've automated a lot of this, which allows me to redirect my energy and expertise into more value-add work, I'd be like, cool, can you help me do this in other areas? Um, I think it'd be marvelous. It's like you were saying before, Al, about, you know, hire the intelligence Lazy people. They're the people that find ways to create efficiencies, as long as the work is done to the same quality standards and in the same, you know, same constraints or boundaries it needs to be done for. I don't know regulation or compliance or whatever else. So yeah, in terms of how management are going to react, it really depends on the organisation. I think it was pretty ace actually, and figure out ways to to utilise this person in other areas for the individual if they've managed to do that. Happy days, and if they're fulfilled, or it could actually lead to them going through rust out if they've removed kind of the challenge in their work. So yeah, there's lots of elements to this in terms of the simplest aspect of your question: Should you report it to HR or your manager? I'd say in the first instance, no. I'd encourage you go and speak to this person about how they've done it, how they might be able to help you do it, and perhaps encouraging them that actually raising this or making the management, where it could actually lead to further opportunities and more value-added time returned to the team overall, not just this individual.

Al ElliottYeah, I totally agree. Um, one part of me, like, there's 2 thoughts I had from this. First of all is that if the job's being done, then as my— if I'm the manager, it's none of my business how the work's being done if it's been done to a great level. Um, and that's kind of the way that— that's why we use a lot of freelancers here in, in Oblong. And so we do the same thing. We go, well, we want this outcome, and I don't really care if it takes you a minute or it takes you 4 days. It's not really— that's not really my business how it gets done, as long as it's to this particular level. The second thing I would say is that already this person, the person who's automated their work, the colleague, they have already got some risk attached to this because potentially if someone finds out and doesn't like it, they could be fired. So it's not completely plain sailing for them. They've still got this risk, this underlying, oh shit, what happens if I get found out? That means they might not sleep quite as well as you. But I think the point what Leanne said was, was correct. I think HR's there for very obvious breaches of contract or very obvious problems that are affecting you. This isn't affecting you. This is just you sticking your nose in going, well, that's not fair.

Leanne ElliottIt's affecting them a little bit because he's saying in terms of their last performance review, he was told to, um, you know, needs to be more efficient. The other person got a glowing review. It's— there is an issue because you're— even if you're managing by output, there isn't a level playing field.

Al ElliottTrue.

Leanne ElliottSo the outputs are typically going to be down for this person that's written in. So I can see the frustration. I can see the need to want to level the playing field. I get that. But I think that first step is talking to the individual. If you honestly think it's going to impact your place in the company, then yeah. If it escalates to that point where you start to feel a bit insecure, then maybe have a conversation with with your manager, and not necessarily in terms of a, um, you know, John's doing that, John's cheating. More of a case of, um, you know, I know there are some members of the team that find ways to streamline their processes, automate their work. Would you be able to help me look at how I can do that to improve my efficiency? And if they ask more questions of who's doing that, well, you know, I'm, I'm sure that if I ask them if they'll come to a meeting with me to talk to you about it, they might be open to it. Do you mean a bit softer? Softer. It's about preserving those relationships, because the minute you, the minute you blow up those relationships, um, it's very hard. And everyone, assuming everyone remains in the workplace, it's very hard to rebuild that sense of civility back up. And without that, I'm not sure it's an environment that, that you or your colleague would want to work in for long anyway, or indeed your manager would want, would tolerate, um, existing for long if they're a good manager.

Al ElliottExcellent advice. Okay, question number 2. This person writes, my company has become very focused on workplace culture since we returned to the office. Good, good, good. While I appreciate that they're trying to boost morale, I'm finding myself increasingly anxious about all the mandatory team-building activities that they're organizing. Last month alone, we had 2 after-work social events, a full-day fun workshop, which this person has written in, puts Some, some rabbit ears, some inverted commas around. I'm guessing it wasn't that fun for them. Um, and trust exercise and a weekly virtual coffee roulette. I'm hoping that's where you get— you don't know who you're going to be, um, talking to rather than what's going to be in your coffee. My manager keeps saying these activities are crucial for team bonding and career growth, heavily implying that not participating will impact my progression. The thing is, I'm good at my job and collaborate well in normal work settings.

Leanne ElliottHmm.

Al ElliottBut as an introvert, I find these forced social situations incredibly draining. I've started to make excuses to skip them, but I can tell it's being noticed. Yesterday, my manager pulled me aside and suggested I wasn't being a team player. What should I do? And follow-up, I don't want to disclose my anxiety to my manager, but I also don't want to keep pretending to be sick to avoid these events.

Leanne ElliottInteresting. And are these mandatory events happening in work time or after work time or a combination of the two?

Al ElliottGreat question. Uh, last month alone, 2 after-work social events, a full day, which sounds like it is in work, and then virtual coffee sounds like it is in work.

Leanne ElliottOkay. Um, I think that's the first, first thing to think about and look at in terms of the organization's role in this. Is it fair that they're mandating so many social events for whatever good or bad intention? My thought would be if they're after work, they're not mandatory, they're voluntary, unless you're being paid for that after-work activity, in which case, if it's a part of your contract, or they've written that back into your contract, or re-contracted to include that, then you're kind of a bit stuck, really. But if mandatory in these bunny ears is actually for interpretation, then I'd look at that first. That might be a useful point of pushback as and when you're ready to make that pushback. We've got a really great episode coming out this Thursday with Connie Hadley, who talks about loneliness. It's currently on the COVID of HBR. Very exciting, very interesting research about loneliness in the workplace. And it has actually shown that introverts are more lonely or experience more loneliness than extroverts, even though they don't necessarily crave this social time. So actually, while it might be uncomfortable, it might actually be good for you to engage in these activities to connect with your colleagues. Again, going back to relationships, we know this is— were the main source of happiness and belonging at work. So, it's difficult to avoid them entirely, and I wouldn't recommend that you avoid them entirely. Equally, if these are causing you anxiety to the point where it's disrupting your ability to function, it's disrupting your ability to do your job, I would really encourage you to have a word with your manager. There's a point of reflection before you do that as to whether there's This— the anxiety you're feeling is this— is coming from the events, is the source of that, or whether these events are just an added thing that you have to manage as part of your day-to-day life and job that is depleting your energy. You haven't said much about what your job is. If you're in a very social job where you're talking to people all day, where you have lots of meetings, where you're dealing with customers, then as an introvert, that is going to drain a lot of your energy. So then the thought of more more social interaction being plugged into that, yes, will start to, start to cause a bit of stress because we're not getting the recovery time to recharge from these social interactions. And I empathize with that. When I first went into training, I loved it, but I'd get home and I'd say to Al, please don't talk to me for an hour. I just need to be quiet. So if this is interrupting your rest and recovery time, then, then yes, this is a point of, point of conversation to have with your manager. Um, it's a tricky one when, when they're mandated. It might just be that this is a case of the organization is going through a culture change now that they've called people back to the office. This is a shift they're going through, and for whatever reason, right or wrong, leadership have decided this is how they want to build connection, camaraderie, teamwork, performance, etc., in, in the business. And if that's the case, it might be also a question of thinking Is this fundamentally the culture that I want to be in? Even if there are other factors going on, even if there is, you know, things you can do to reduce your anxiety and increase your rest and recovery time, you have to fundamentally ask yourself if this is now the culture the organisation is shaping, is going for. Is this the culture in which I will be the most happy? We talked about this with. Liz and Kat last week in terms of how to look at culture and whether you're the— you fit the culture— not fit, but add culture— add whether it's aligned to the type of work that you want to do in the way in which you want to do it. Do some reflection in terms of what else might be, um, fueling your anxiety, both in work and outside of work, particularly if you have quite a socially driven job. Um, I'd really encourage you to talk to your manager, um, particularly in terms of what the expectations really are in terms of mandatory events, particularly after-work ones. And finally, maybe a bit of, um, a bit of reflection on whether this is the company you want to be in. It sounds like they're going through a culture transformation at the moment by going from, from remote— or was it hybrid— to in-office, and now investing a lot more in in relationships and connections and the way they build them. So fundamentally, this culture might be shifting in a direction that isn't conducive to you.

Al ElliottFabulous. Okay, question number 3, Leanne. The company I work for is adopting a hybrid model 6 months ago, but I've chosen to go to remain fully remote due to family care responsibilities, a choice that was supposedly supported by management. The reality has been very different. I'm constantly finding out about important decisions after they've been made in a quick informal chat at the office. My ideas in virtual meetings are often overlooked, only to be praised when repeated by in-office colleagues later. That must be really frustrating. Projects I used to lead are now being handed to people who are in the office with the explanation that it's easier to collaborate face-to-face. Despite my consistent performance metrics, I feel like I'm becoming invisible. I'm starting to wonder if I need to choose between family responsibilities and my career progression. Is there a way, Leanne, to maintain my influence and ensure my voice is heard whilst working remotely?

Leanne ElliottOh, this is hard, isn't it? Yes, there will be things you can do. I think fundamentally though, am I, am I hearing this right, Al, that the organisation has a hybrid policy?

Al ElliottYep.

Leanne ElliottBut this person has decided to remain 100% remote and that they're probably a minority, if not The only person?

Al ElliottYeah, that's what I'm getting from it.

Leanne ElliottOh, it's really tough. And I, and I totally understand why you'd want to stay remote, especially just, just anyway, remote work is glorious. But in terms of managing family life and things like that, I totally understand. And this is no judgment on your choice to be remote. But by choosing to go remote when you know the majority, if not the rest of your organization is, is transitioning to a hybrid model, you've kind of isolated yourself, and you're asking managements and colleagues to behave in ways that, that suit a minority and suit you rather than what is working for the team overall. So that's really tricky. I mean, if, if you had a— if you have a great manager and you feel you can talk to them, I would maybe raise this with them in terms of, from a perspective of, what can I do to make sure I don't miss these things? Um, is there a way of, I don't know, a certain Slack channel that I could create? Or, um, are there maybe some meetings where I do need to come into the office and be there in person, even if they're, you know, they're quite few and far between? It's tricky because people keeping you updated is ultimately creating more work for them, um, just because the environment that the organization is operating within and by. If that's for the majority, it's very hard to make exceptions for, um, for a minority in terms of, of those updates unless your manager is on board. You said then that, you know, supposedly this is okay. It sounds like maybe it wasn't. And, you know, it really is your manager and colleagues that should be, should be keeping you up to date with that. Key thing would be to maybe first of all understand that, that where are the commonalities? Are you missing information from a certain member of the team, a certain team or department during a certain meeting or catch-up? Where are these decisions being made? Is it across the board or is it in a small siloed pocket? If it's in a small siloed pocket, then that's going to be a lot easier to address. It's just then a case of maybe going to somebody on that team and going, hey, um, I heard you had a meeting today, or anything happened today that I should know about? And again, you're taking a proactive approach to get that information rather than expecting somebody to necessarily pick up the phone or jump on a on a Zoom with you impromptu. Um, if it is spread across the board, again, I think this is an indication that fundamentally the structure of the organization, the culture of the organization, isn't operating in a way that is conducive to how and where you're currently working. It might be time to think about, um, about how you could maybe transition to some structure of hybrid or attend, as I said, those some meetings that, that seem to be the important ones if you identify that that is a trend. Um, it's really tricky. Normally I'd be really quite, you know, have my back up about this and be really with you in terms of people should be telling this and should be improving the communication channels and all that kind of stuff. Um, but it sounds like the organization has got a policy and got a structure, um, that they've transitioned to. Again, they've gone through a transformation to this structure. Um, so it's— it— you have literally, um, and figuratively been left behind. Um, so it's hard to— it's hard to address that as an individual. Um, you really can need the organization. If they're not on board, um, that's really hard. I think a conversation with your manager is going to be a key thing, particularly if you can go with some data points in terms of it's usually this meeting, it's usually this department, it's usually this this person or these people, or decisions relating to X, Y, and Z. What do you think I can do to be more immersed in the conversation when those decisions are being made? In terms of impromptu in-the-office stuff, that's really hard. Again, you could try and pick a buddy in a team where this seems to be happening and calling them for some updates and seeing what's going on. Oh, it's a really tricky one. What do you think, Al?

Al ElliottThere's a couple of things, couple of thoughts I had when you were talking. Uh, first of all, it's possible that the people who are excluding you, uh, just feel quite envious and jealous of your situation. And perhaps they think that you've just decided to work at home because you want to, whereas you've said, I think, let me just see, um, you said you have to stay at home because you've got family responsibilities. Perhaps they don't know that, and perhaps it's their way of getting back at you, of going, well, it's all right for Jeffrey, he can go and work at home, um, we have to come into the office. There's perhaps that.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottSecond thing, and also to get over that, is maybe that you just try and find some people in the office you can talk to and explain why it is that you do what you do. Because again, we've talked about reasons so much in this episode, but if someone knows the reason for you staying at home is, is because you've got family responsibilities and you have no other way around it, perhaps they'll be a bit more sort of softer with you.

Leanne ElliottAnd there will be mechanisms in place, won't there? It is a hybrid, so people are working remotely some of the time. It's figuring out where that breakdown is when people in the office, isn't it?

Al ElliottI think. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, the other thing is that, uh, if there's impromptu decisions made in the office, well, other people can be missing out on those because if they're impromptu and you're hybrid and you work and someone works there 3 days a week, they've still got a 2 out of 5 chance of missing out on those things. So there's probably other people who, who work remotely, um, who, who might, you might be able to talk to and perhaps you can gang up on them and, and beat them up in the car park. Maybe don't do that.

Leanne ElliottOr do some impromptu coffees, as we heard earlier.

Al ElliottThat was my last thing I was going to say. No, I like this. I like the way we're thinking. And, and the last thing is maybe organize your own thing. Maybe just say, right, okay, I'm on a Thursday, I'm coming in and I want to see everyone and I want to buy them all a coffee. You know, do your own event under your own time and see if there's a way in which you can start to insert yourself back into the workplace. If none of that works, you can't sacrifice your your family responsibilities, you just can't. That's the most important thing. So it might be that this isn't the place for you. Tough questions this week. If you have a question around workplace, whether you might be an employee, a manager, or perhaps a leader, a business owner, then the details are in the show notes. Send them off. Leanne, I think that's everything for this week.

Leanne ElliottIt is a quick reminder that if you like to hear stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then our Thursday episodes are definitely up your street.

Al ElliottSee you next week. Bye-bye.

Leanne ElliottMy name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name's Al. I'm slightly out of focus. Welcome, welcome. A reminder, if you like guest interviews, then hearing— well, I messed that up. And come back after this very short break.

Leanne ElliottWhat's your threat? You usually give people a threat for the week, like wasps through the letterbox. I mean, decided to chill out on that.

Al ElliottYeah, I got some letters.

Leanne ElliottIt's a bit aggressive. And why it might be time to start focusing on systematic change.

Al ElliottAlso, I think it's systemic change. Yeah, it is.

Leanne ElliottSorry.