Episode 150 · 3 December 2024 · 51:24
Dark empaths, salary secrets and the future of remote work. PLUS Amy McKeown's Hot Tale on Well-being
Dark empaths, salary secrets and the future of remote work. PLUS Amy McKeown's Hot Tale on Well-being
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Dark empaths in the workplace
news roundup#dark-empaths#workplace-psychology#toxic-behavior
How to mend a broken work relationship
news roundup#work-relationships#conflict-resolution#communication
The great homeworking experiment
news roundup#remote-work#homeworking#hybrid-work
Hot Take: Amy McKeown on why 'wellbeing' is on the way out
Workplace Surgery: The overwhelmed EA
workplace surgery#executive-assistant#overwhelm#workplace-advice
Workplace Surgery: The accidental salary reveal
workplace surgery#salary-transparency#pay-equity#workplace-issues
Workplace Surgery: The anonymous suggestion box shenanigans
workplace surgery#suggestion-box#workplace-humor#employee-engagement
Show notes
Episode 150: Dark Empaths, Salary Secrets & the Future of Remote Work — PLUS Amy McKeown's Hot Take on Wellbeing
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the rise of "dark empaths" in the workplace, how to mend broken work relationships, and what the research really says about remote work. Plus, Amy McKeown delivers a spicy Hot Take on why "wellbeing" as a term is on its way out — and the Workplace Surgery tackles an overwhelmed EA, an accidental salary leak, and a suggestion box that's a little too honest.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Dark empaths — the workplace manipulators you won't see coming Leanne digs into a BBC Science Focus article on "dark empaths": people who combine dark personality traits like narcissism and manipulation with above-average empathy. In the workplace, this can look like someone who takes credit for your ideas while making you feel valued — a manager who weaponises understanding. The research suggests this blend is more common than you'd think (around 20% of the population), which means in a team of 60, you've likely got about 12 people with these traits. Leanne explores how leaders can build accountability and transparency to keep dark empaths in check. Source →
2. How to mend a broken work relationship Al shares insights from a Harvard Business Review piece by Susan David on repairing workplace rifts. The key? Stop replaying the argument in your head — it just makes you angry again. Instead, focus on shared goals, start small with gestures of goodwill, and ask yourself the brutal question: is it actually worth fixing? Leanne adds that relationship breakdowns exist on a scale, and power dynamics often make things worse before they get better. Source →
3. The great homeworking experiment — what the research actually says Leanne explores the evidence from researchers Gail Kinman and Christine Grant. The headline: remote work improves productivity and inclusivity, but it also brings overwork, isolation and mental health strain. At its best, it offers flexibility and no soul-crushing commute. At its worst, we're working from kitchen tables and never switching off. The conclusion? There's no silver bullet — tailored hybrid models are likely the future, depending on your people, your business and your clients.
🔥 Hot Take of the Week: Amy McKeown
Amy McKeown, workplace health expert, joins us with a characteristically spicy take: "Wellbeing is on the way out."
After a decade of the wellbeing industry's explosive growth, Amy argues the term has become a meaningless buzzword — an off-the-shelf solution that's drifted completely away from the science. She's seen two of this year's "wellbeing strategies" quietly rebranded as something else, and she's calling for clearer language focused on health and mental health instead.
She also warns about the "pile-in" problem: anyone can call themselves a wellbeing expert, just as anyone with an undergrad psychology degree can call themselves a psychologist (a term that isn't actually protected — unlike "occupational psychologist," which is). The industry is heading for a massive correction, and Amy's here for it.
Amy's upcoming course, Do Workplace Health Right, features workplace culture luminaries including Peter Cheese and Dr. Clayre Fernandez — and yes, our very own Leanne is on the faculty too.
Find out more about the course here →
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- The overwhelmed EA: An Executive Assistant is juggling responsibilities way outside their role. Leanne's advice? Get clear on what you do want to do, not just what you don't — then have the conversation from a place of contribution, not complaint.
- The accidental salary reveal: A manager discovers huge pay disparities after a spreadsheet accidentally lands in their inbox. Do they have an ethical obligation to speak up? Leanne's verdict: you can't keep quiet if it's eating you up — but go in with facts, not fury, and be ready to ask whether the MD is even aware.
- The suggestion box shenanigans: A business owner is getting humorous (and occasionally unhelpful) anonymous feedback alongside genuinely useful suggestions. Leanne's fix? Get a ball pit, force people into choices with a Likert scale, and remember — if they care enough to give you feedback, even the jokes are a sign of engagement.
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team Can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWelcome, welcome. Hello to you if you are brand new here. If you care about the culture at your organization, then you are definitely in the right place. If you've listened before, then welcome back. You know the score because every Thursday bring you a brand new interview with an expert guest who knows how to create great workplace cultures. But it's Tuesday, so today we're bringing you your weekly fix of workplace news, spicy hot takes from our expert panel. You'll like today. And of course, our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Talking of which.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah. If you, if you do have a question about work, then I'd love to help you with it. Uh, check out the show notes. You'll find out how to get in touch. There's lots of different ways. Right now though, it's time for my favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup. Have I said time enough? I'll cue the jingle.
Al ElliottThe, the jingle is cued. Le, what have you seen this week? What have you been reading?
Leanne ElliottDark empaths.
Al ElliottRight. That sounds a bit weird. Go on.
Leanne ElliottDark empaths. Yeah, um, I'd not heard this term before. Um, thought it was— it was— it certainly grabbed my attention. Um, interesting article from BBC Science Focus. I can't imagine that's one that you're subscribed to, Al, but I am. Um, see, it's an article written by Dr. Nadja Haim and Dr. Emmanuel Fino about a new group of people that psychologists have discovered and coined dark empaths. So basically, these people have dark personality traits such as psychopathy and narcissism, but also above average levels of empathy, making them particularly complex and potentially dangerous. So you will probably remember from our episode on psychopathy that dark side personality traits are much more common than you think, about 1 in 100 people are psychopathic, and research actually suggests that dark empaths are actually about 20% of the population.
Al ElliottThat's quite a lot.
Leanne ElliottIt's a lot more common, which means if you've got a team of like 60 people, then you've got about 12 people on your team that are dark empaths. Why does this matter? Well, the thing is, you'll remember psychopathy typically is defined by people lacking empathy.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottA dark empath is somebody who has the traditional dark personality traits like manipulation or narcissism, but the high levels of empathy, but not necessarily empathy as we know it, because what it basically means is that they use empathy to connect, rather than to connect and support, to control and manipulate. So imagine somebody who knows exactly how you feel, but uses that understanding to steer things their way.
Al ElliottDefinitely met some of those people.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so in the workplace, this might look like somebody who takes credit for your ideas while making you feel like they're doing you a favor. They might navigate office politics really, really well, always position themselves as indispensable, and quietly undermine you and other people on the team. And it's not just about these big dramatic acts of deception. It's often the small calculated moves that can be just as harmful. And this does tie back to an earlier episode, um, as I said, where we talked about psychopathy and particularly in the workplace. Not all psychopaths are criminal masterminds or high-powered CEOs, despite what pop culture might have us believe. But the presence of people with dark traits, including dark empaths, can still create significant challenges in a professional environment because there's a lot more of them. But then of course you're going to have dark empaths in management positions as well, and I think they're the ones that I've come across, the managers that, um, yeah, claim all the credit, everything was their idea, all the performance is down to them, um, and yeah, really it was the rest of the team that was making them look good.
Al ElliottYeah, and also it kind of makes sense to me that a dark empath would traditionally be a manager because if they are good at navigating politics, if they are heartless about taking credit for something, And they also know how to manipulate people to get them to know what they, you know, get them to do what you want. That's like the perfect way to get into management. It's not the perfect manager, which Leanne will talk about on a note. Well, she talked about every episode basically, but it's not the perfect manager, but it's a perfect way to do it. So I can see also dark empaths being, um, a larger percentage being managers, um, or a large percentage of managers being dark empaths. Uh, politicians, I can see a lot. And potentially also, um, people sort of like, um, you know, like the Taylor Swifts of the world or the superstars. I don't know. I mean, maybe not Taylor Swift, maybe not. Taylor's always getting Beef, isn't she? I was just trying to think of someone big, so all right, there we go. Um, what about, uh, uh, your man who was married to Kim Kardashian and then he went—
Leanne ElliottKanye West.
Al ElliottYes, probably a dark empath.
Leanne ElliottThere's more going on there than dark empath, to be fair. Um, interesting psychology to that man. What have you seen this week?
Al ElliottWell, breaking news, Al's wearing a pair of spectacles on the pod. If you're watching it on YouTube, you will see, um, I got these new specs, which is great, so I can actually see, um, Leanne now. However, Because I'm wearing these fancy-ass spectacles, these fancy-ass glasses, I felt like I needed to up my game in terms of what I've been reading. So this week I've been reading the Harvard Business Review. Well, actually, that's not true. I haven't. I haven't. I saw— I think I saw someone link to it on Twitter, so I haven't been reading it. But my art— the article I am going to talk about is from the Harvard Business Review. It's around broken relationships at work. Now, just a quick thing, we'll leave the link in the show notes, and it's one of those few on Harvard Business Review, HBR, That he's actually, um, not got a paywall, so you can actually just read it. Um, and in fact, I think it might even be a video you can actually watch or listen to. I think we've all had them, the bad relationships at work. Now, as I've always said—
Leanne ElliottYou sure do.
Al ElliottExactly. Well, hang on a minute.
Leanne ElliottWhoa. Uh, only joking, joking. He queued it up. I just had to—
Al ElliottYeah, he just had to nod it in. Anyway, uh, so, so bad relationships at work. I think no matter where you worked, you've always had someone who you didn't, didn't get along with. This article talks all about these. It's really quite interesting because there's a, there's a lady called Susan David, um, who's the author of the book Emotional Agility, and she says there's 2 types of broken relationships at work. On one end, she says, people who you don't just seem to get on well with. It's just like someone you might say hello to, you might wish you had a better relationship, you don't really know them, and it's just like, oh, nah. Then on the other end, you've got your mortal enemies. These are the people who you just know that you're not going to get on with. You either— you've more than likely had an argument with them, but there's something about them.
Leanne ElliottThey've crossed you.
Al ElliottThey've crossed you. Maybe they are dark empaths.
Leanne ElliottSo let's start with these—
Al Elliottthe second one, the ones who are the mortal enemies. As I said, I think often these start around an argument where you thought they were wrong and they thought they were right. And this is exactly what Susan Davis said. She said, and I thought that the article was going to go down the whole Buddhist route of going, oh well, they might be right, but you know, just give them the benefit of the doubt. No, Susan, Susan surprised everyone by saying, imagine them walking around the office wearing a huge sticker saying, I'm wrong. To be fair, in my head that sticker would say something different, like, I'm an— yeah. Something like that. So just imagine them wearing it, because you'll be— she reckons you'll be surprised at how just pretending that they know they were wrong can dispel a lot of hard feelings. Of course, they might also already know that they were wrong, but we're going to come back to that in a second. Then the second thing she suggests is stop going over all the negative interactions. And I know this has happened with me when I've met someone, not necessarily in workplace, because I've only worked with Leanne recently, but, um, if I meet someone who I'm not a big fan of, I tend to think, oh God, oh, I remember when they did this, and I remember when they did that, and that really annoyed me.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThe problem with that, Susan's saying, is that you just make yourself angry again. So instead, focus— this week gets a bit more Buddhist— instead focus about what you do like about them. And if there's nothing you do like about them, and I'm sure there's some people out there that there aren't, then think about what you actually want from them. Now I have a thought that if there's— if there's— if you don't like them and there's nothing you want from them, then I reckon just forget them because they're not important. Like the whole idea of, you know, control those things that you can control or worry about those things you can control. But if there is something you want, then just focus on getting what you need with civility. Um, it might also be a little bit superfluous— supercilious, I think is the right word. Um, a bit sort of, uh, you're lacking in depth, but that's what you want, so just leverage it. This is going back to maybe 10, 15 years ago, maybe even 20 years ago. Someone said to me that people are just making the best decisions they can given the information they've got right now. And I go back to Rob Kalbarowski's comment last week that assholes are almost assholes because they have huge amount of fear. So most people aren't actually bad people. So could this person you think is an actual idiot actually be intimidated by you? Perhaps. Could they worry that by giving you what you need to do their job, they'll be redundant? Leanne is nodding along like a nodding dog here. I'm sure you've had someone like this who, who kind of gatekeeps certain information because they need to feel important, um, to dole this information out or tasks out on that sort of thing. So just to kind of summarize this article, the link's in the show notes, and it's well worth— it's only a short article, it's well worth reading. You've got to ask yourself, do you even want to repair the relationship? And if not, then let it go. If you do, then do it the same way you would make up with a partner after an argument. Well, not the exact same way, but with small gestures that show you care and get you back to where you want to be. As I say, the link is in the show notes. Lee, anything to add to that?
Leanne ElliottI think there is a scale of relationship breakdown. I think, I think, and I think a lot of it depends on where I think if you start quite well and quite in a, not necessarily friend, like best mates, but like a productive, effective working relationship and then that breaks down, it's much easier to rebuild 'cause you've already got some professional commonality. What's really hard is when you have a breakdown in relationship with a member of the team who you didn't really have that together in the first place and then it got worse.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd then there's a power dynamic involved, and then, and then it just escalates and you lose all respect for that person and it's really hard to get back. And I think what I like about that article, Al, is, is, do you need to? And if you need to, focus on what you actually need to productively get out of this professional relationship using civility, um, and hope that the other person is also civil in return. That doesn't always happen either. Um, yeah, good, good solid advice, I think, there, Al. I think it's always with kind of not necessarily like putting like a grading, grading scheme on relationships. I'm not sure you want to be that, that dark empath about it, do you? But kind of that, how important is it to me in terms of my ability to work, or how important is it to me and my ability to, you know, I want a personal relationship with this person. And if both those things are low, is it worth the energy?
Al ElliottYeah, is it worth it? Is it worth it? One thing which is worth it is Leanne's next article.
Leanne ElliottWhat have you seen Well, I'm not sure we've talked about remote work for a little while.
Al ElliottRemote work. Now, how does that work?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, there's lots on LinkedIn, and I'll be honest, it does make me twitch a little bit because there's a lot of opinion and not a lot of data. And I'm all for opinion when we didn't have the data in the early, you know, COVID days and coming out of it. But now we actually have quite a lot of data. We've got 4 years' worth of data. So let's talk about that, shall we? And luckily, some wonderful psychologists are Gail Kinman and Kristy Grant. They delved into the latest insights we have from what they're calling the Great Homeworking Experiment. This was from the— in the British Psychological Society's Psychologist magazine, so you know it's legit as well.
Al ElliottFun read.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it is actually. So basically, the headline is, remote work improves productivity and inclusivity, but also highlights challenges with mental health and overwork, right? So there's some good, there's some bad. And this is what annoys me about a lot of the arguments that go on. Like, it's like nature-nurture, which one is it? Well, it's a bit of both, inevitably. Is it in office? Is it, you know, well, anyway, enough about me. Let's go on. Now, what they said, these wonderful psychologists who've looked at all this research, before the pandemic, as we know, remote work was a privilege for a lucky few. We didn't have a lot of data on it, as I said. We didn't know how effective it was. We didn't really know the pros and cons. Flipped on its head by the pandemic, where nearly half of the UK workforce, that's around 10 million people, were suddenly setting up shop at home. Massive shift, and it gave us a lot more data to look at in terms of what does work and what doesn't. And here is what we know according to science, okay? It's not my opinion, this is science.
Al ElliottAl? Yep.
Leanne ElliottClear on that?
Al ElliottIt's science, got it.
Leanne ElliottAt its—
Al ElliottTalking about difficult relationships at work. I'm getting bullied here.
Leanne ElliottAt its best, remote work offers flexibility, a better work-life balance and no soul-crushing commute. Some people even found themselves more productive, freed from office distractions and able to craft a workday that suited their rhythm. One of the big takeaways was also how important autonomy is. Having some say over where and when you work can have a massive, a massive impact, and not just your productivity but also to your well-being. Other studies have shown that people with flexible arrangements tend to feel more satisfied and more engaged in their, in their roles. And let's not forget, remote work has been a game changer for groups such as disabled workers and caregivers, for example, in terms of helping to level the playing field and showing that flexibility isn't just possible, it's really effective. But as I said, double-edged sword.
Al ElliottNot—
Leanne Elliottlet's pretend— let's not pretend it's all, all rosy. Many of us are working, or did work, from kitchen tables, um, or even our beds, which isn't exactly great for focus or posture. Um, parents have to juggle a lot to work, childcare, homeschooling, often feeling like they're failing at all 3. And for businesses, the rush to virtual meetings really did highlight how tricky collaboration and communication can be, um, or rather when you have to be intentional about communication and collaboration. It can't just be these happy accidents around the water cooler. Even the tech side has its pros and cons. According to the research, tools like Zoom and Teams keep us connected, but also introduce us to the now famous Zoom fatigue. Turns out spending hours staring at our own face while talking to colleagues is surprisingly exhausting, and researchers like Jeremy Bailenson and others have pinpointed why. Apparently everything from non-stop eye contact to the strain of trying to read digital body language can play a part. And then of course we've got the constant connectivity remote workers have enables us to work much longer hours Potentially there's higher expectations because we're more productive. Um, so yeah, it's, it's a really tricky, tricky thing, and I think this is why a lot of people are turning to hybrid as the answer. Turning to hybrid being the best of both worlds. Al, thoughts on some of that?
Al ElliottI think we've said all we need to say on remote work. Um, it's, it's— there's no There's no silver bullet. Remote work works well for some people. Remote work won't work well for others. That was a tough sentence to say. Um, hybrid seems to be the best of all worlds, but it's still going to be portions of the, of the population who don't like— who hate the office side of it, and people who hate the work-from-home side of it. I think the fact that it's an option is a really nice way of, of, of positioning remote work. Um, there's— again, I'm not, I'm not shilling our RX7 model, but Leanne has developed an RX7 model which has got 7 factors of an amazing workplace culture, all beginning with the letter R. That was my idea. RX7, R times 7. Get it? Get it? Oh yeah, well done. You're a genius, Al. But one of those Rs is remote. And what's interesting is that that's not a factor of the, of the happiness of your employees, not a factor of the culture. That is a moderator. And if you get all the other 6 things correct— see, Leanne's nodding away as if to go, you do know this, Al, you do. If you get the other 6 things right, then your remote part of it is going to elevate all your scores and you're just going to make— you're going to be the best culture ever. If you get some of the other stuff wrong, remote is going to magnify that problem and it's going to bring it down. So remote is very much a modifier. It's not part of a— it's not a foundation of workplace culture. I mean, I think we need to remember that. We need to remember that remote is— if we get everything else right, remote can really, really help. If we get some of the things wrong, it's like having a microphone. If you talk rubbish like I just did, then all I've done is amplified my voice. I haven't necessarily become a Fancy person who you should listen to.
Leanne ElliottYou have become a fancy person that people should listen to, Al. I think so. Um, yeah, hybrid, I think it— and this is now the new experiment that we're going through. So bearing in mind we have 4 years of data, generally speaking, around remote work, hybrid really was a bit later, wasn't it? And then it's finding our rhythm with it. So some people are calling it just a work trend, others think that it kills creativity and productivity. And then of course there is the fact that recent surveys suggest that most leaders want all employees back in the office. Um, so yeah, forcing people is another conversation for another day, and all the RTO mandates and all that type of stuff. And I think that's the thing for businesses— one size doesn't fit all. And I know you don't want that answer. I know you want me to say, oh, they should have 2 days in the office, 3 days at home, or all in the office. And I think that's why people are being drawn to these people with, with strong opinions on one or the other. And the fact is, it isn't one or the other. It depends on the people you have in your business.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottTheir needs, what your business does, what your clients need. It all depends.
Al ElliottOkay, after this very, very short break, we'll be back with this week's hot take from Amy McKeown, and it is a spicy one. I know we say this every week, but this one, this one taken out of context could actually end her career. So I've done some very sympathetic editing to ensure that there is some context. So don't go anywhere because, well, why would you? You want to find out what happens.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— yeah, yeah, and the UK's number one marketing are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back, regular listeners. You know by now, every week we ask a workplace expert for their hot take on the world of work. Today we hear from Amy McKeown, who is one of the good guys in corporate well-being, having worked for huge organizations such as the EU Parliament, Samsung, Burberry, EY, and many other FTSE 100 organizations. And I bet she doesn't say what you think she'll say. Amy, the floor is yours, my friend. But yeah, Amy McKeown. I've been in and around workplace health and mental health for the last 20 years, um, in all different ways, from running a mental health tech startup, being in-house, and being an independent consultant for the last 7 years now. Some people know me as a hotshot global strategy consultant. Others know me as the person that took Ernst Young to tribunal Others know me for being a mother to my daughters. Others know me for dancing around a magical circle in Cornwall 2 weeks ago, launching my course out into the world at a shaman disco.
Al ElliottWhat I want to know, what's really annoying you at the moment? What do you believe that perhaps other people don't about the work, work culture, health in work?
Leanne ElliottI believe well-being is on the way out in many ways. I can see this face. I also believe that we're in the biggest shake-up of working practices since the Industrial Revolution, well-being being part of that, and actually well-being should be replaced with change right now. I've been a dinosaur in the well-being market. You know, I ran a mental health tech startup in 2003, which was completely the wrong time given that Facebook didn't exist, technology didn't exist, and no one was talking about mental health. So the well-being market that we see and you've talked about and we've gone to conferences on, it's only really been around in the last 10 years, right? The first decade of my career, I got laughed out of boardrooms for talking about mental health. Now, when I work with organizations, and I've written 3 multinational strategies so far this year, one of the things I take them through is a process of what we're actually going to call this thing, right? And where we usually end up is health And mental health, not well-being.
Al ElliottRight?
Leanne ElliottSo when I say well-being's on the way out, right? So in the last 10 years, this, this big explosion of well-being happened, right? Well-being policies, well-being roles, global well-being leads, well-being providers, and industry and well-being. And what I'm not saying is that well-being will disappear. What I'm saying is that what we're really talking about is health and mental health, managing health and mental health at the workplace and managing change, like teaching individuals and organizations how to work in a world that is in constant change. The market is going through a massive correction right now. It's a market that didn't exist 10 years ago. So we're talking about kind of, you know, the market's 10 years old. It's an infant, right? And it's an infant created on the buzz of everyone caring about well-being, COVID, all of these things, right? I've watched conferences go from having no well-being Well-being providers to having exhibitions, right? What we're seeing now, though, is the retrenchment of that because, quite frankly, a lot of the things that we've seen don't work. Well-being in an organization can be so broad often that it doesn't really do anything. It's just a buzzword. A lot of the well-being leads I've seen over the last two three years in jobs have been made redundant. A lot of their roles have been wrapped into DNI roles, health and safety roles, and a lot of the providers that you and I have seen around the exhibition world either don't have much work or out of business or are struggling, right? It's been an explosion and now we're coming back.
Al ElliottSo if we're going to— or your, your thought is that well-being has become kind of like a buzzword, um, almost like a parody of itself, then what word would you rather that people used instead of well-being?
Leanne ElliottWhatever is right for that organization. And I'm not pushing that back. A lot of my work in organizations is working with them to really put in clear foundations and structure. So taking them back— a lot of people launched into well-being strategies, and where I get my work is really when an organization is at 2 phases. Either they want to do something on health, mental health, and well-being, and they don't know where to start, so they come to me. Or increasingly, most of my work comes from— we've done a lot Stuff, and it's not strategic. So, it's coming back to basics. But what we do at the start of anything is, what are we talking about here? What are our organizational definitions, right? So, what language are we using? And then we go out to as many different demographics and teams in an organization, and in a listening exercise or circle-type format, we then hear from people about what lands.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo I have in this year, 2 of the well-being strategies that started out as well-being strategies have ended up as health and mental health strategies or mental illness strategies. So it's really being very clear what we are and what we aren't talking about. In some organizations, we have ended up with a well-being strategy, but we have clearly defined what the boundaries are around well-being for that organization. Social, financial, physical, mental, and what they mean. Because it's like anything in life, if you don't have any structural boundaries, it just becomes unbounded mess, right?
Al ElliottSo what's going to happen to all of the people who, who are well-being gurus on LinkedIn? What's going to happen to them?
Leanne ElliottSo in the 20 years I've been in this world, I've seen people pile in from all different directions. Right. So, so everybody, because everybody is interested in well-being in their personal life, right? So, so you've got people like your amazing wife, right, who is a psychologist who goes in, who writes strategy, who does HR stuff, who's gone off and done degrees and chartered things in psychology, right? There's been a whole industry in LinkedIn as well. Which is people who've created profiles for themselves talking about, you know, well-being on LinkedIn, right? A whole range of these people, and there's a whole industry, right, it seems, in people who are building a LinkedIn profile of followers. And I mean, I think now you probably have to have done, what, 3 TED Talks, TEDx Talks, and written at least 2 books, right? So that instead of expertise, In many cases, I'm not saying this by all, but actually there is an industry in becoming big on social media in an area that you like to talk about, and then building a career on the back of your social media profile, which flips it on its head, right? When I was a girl, many, many, many years ago, you went and got some actual experience, and then that was what you got employed for. Nowadays, there are people, not by any measures at all, but who the experience is the number of LinkedIn followers, and they are recruited by organizations Based on that.
Al ElliottWell, well, well, you can see now why— yes, spicy. You can see now why I said that, um, I said that if I took some of that out of context, then we could, we could end Amy's career. That's not true, we couldn't. Amy's, Amy's awesome. But, um, it is really important that we— or really interesting to see that well-being has become almost like a parody of itself. Um, and obviously she knows her stuff. She's been around for like 20-something years in this, in this game. Um, I'm— I'd be interested to see whether the rest of the market is ready for this sort of like breaking down into health and mental health, or whether they still want well-being. You know, the whole like— I think it's Moore's Curve where you've got early adopters, late adopters, um, early majority, late majority, and laggard. And then you're gonna have to get your entire market across to early majority or late majority to actually make some money. I think that well-being is possibly in the early to late majority, so therefore for us to change the term means trying to change like 50% of the market the way they think about it. So I'm not sure that that's going to happen very, very quickly. But Lee, should it happen?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think it should be retired as a term because it's a term that now doesn't really mean anything, which is frustrating. And I think we've heard, you know, we heard another hot take from Dr. Audrey Tang, um, a psychologist very much, um, steeped in, in well-being research and practice. And as she was saying, you know, there's a move now towards much more Psychosocial health. Um, she used a brilliant analogy, didn't she, of like you fall down a hole, they're not going to tell you, teach you a training course on how to get out the hole, they're going to fix the hole. I think that's the point. I think that's what a lot of practitioners like Amy and myself are frustrated because well-being has been picked up as this buzzword of these yoga, you know, at lunch, these smoothies of fruit in the break room. It's all just gone a bit away from—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThe actual science, not even a bit. It's completely away from the science. And what's really disheartening now is we're seeing research come out of all the different well-being interventions that organizations have in. They're not having any impact because they're not actually putting in, in a way that's actually targeting the problem that they're trying to solve.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottBecause it's an off-the-shelf solution. If you work with any well-being provider, any well-being provider, who is trying to sell you an off-the-shelf solution without any kind of bespoke aspect or understanding of your organization, run, because it's not going to work. It's just not going to work. Exception being like broad EAP programs, there's lots of different support options in place, but it's just nonsense. And I think what really frustrates me is that there's going to be a shift towards, well, it doesn't work, so we won't do anything for well-being. We tried, it didn't have any impact. And it's, it's That's not what you've done. You've used poor products and tools to solve a problem you haven't even taken the time to understand, and you're surprised it's not having an impact.
Al ElliottYeah, totally agree. It's like saying— like saying well-being is like saying exercise, you know. You— it's, it's not the same. Oh, I went and did some exercise. What do you do? I went for a 5-minute walk. Well, that's not gonna— that's not gonna take you from 300 pounds to 150 pounds. You need to have some specific advice on what you need to do for that particular thing. I'm gonna blame the marketers, and I'm gonna blame the entrepreneurs and the people who've created this. I think that, that they saw the idea that well-being was a trending word, and then therefore everything to do with HR had to have the words well-being in it. But like, you know, like you get apps now these days where it says with AI assistance in it, and you're like, well, it's not really AI assistance. They've just put the word AI on there because they felt like every— everyone else has it. Um, so I think that, um, like Amy says, it It's, it's 10 years old. It's time that we did start breaking it down into sort of constituent parts, um, and it's time that we, that we, like Leanne said, that we talk about individualizing the actual well-being solution rather than saying I'm off to buy some well-being and that will hopefully solve the problem. Oh, back it up here, Steve. Let's put the well-being in the, in, in the, in the, in the spare room. Well, not the spare room, but the, you know, the cupboard.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think there's growing frustration amongst other psychologists as well. I see more and more about it, I hear more and more about it. There's pushes around, um, understanding terms. So do you know that anyone can call themselves a psychologist?
Al ElliottNo, I didn't know that.
Leanne ElliottAnyone can call themselves a psychologist. They do an undergrad in psychology, they can call themselves psychologists. They could not— they could just do a degree in English, they could just do an apprenticeship in electricity, they can call themselves a psychologist. There's no— there's a word— term psychologist is not protected in the UK.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottSo you wanna be really careful. You wanna look for things like occupational psychologist. That is a protected term. So yeah, Dr. Craig Knight was talking about that a lot. There's lots of influencers floating around. There are little culture clubs on LinkedIn that are the same faces, the same people who rotate around the same corporate roles. So I'm not surprised they're being made redundant because they're not having any impact 'cause they don't know what they're fricking doing. It's annoying. 80% of your well-being strategy should be your operational strategy. It's how your workloads are structured. It's how people are recruited. It's how people are managed. Um, you know, it's all these things that actually create an environment that supports positive well-being, not having mindfulness at lunch, not having free gym memberships. Um, so yeah, it's, it's frustrating. So I'm with you. I'm with you, Amy. And I hope it does. I hope well-being explodes and goes down in flames. And something will come from those ashes that is much, much better, much more effective, science-led, data-driven, and eliminates this culture club ick that is currently on LinkedIn.
Al ElliottWell said. Talking of things rising from the flames and being much better, then, uh, then here we are. We're about to talk about Amy's program. Now, I'm not just shilling it. I will talk about that. I'll tell you why in a second. She's got this 3-month program starting in January for organizations. She's called Uh, Do Workplace Health Right. Again, no well-being in that title. Uh, just to give you an idea, the program's aimed at organizations who are tired of the same stuff that Leanne was just talking about there, or the off-the-shelf pointless service tools that, that just— I'm not saying— I'm not actually calling anyone out, but hi Bob. Um, and what—
Leanne ElliottYou're getting cancelled.
Al ElliottWell, it's just, it's, it's algorithmic AI-driven bollocks anyway, so, so So if you do want to build an amazing workplace culture, then this program is exactly what you need. Features some genuine superstars in the mental health and workplace culture world, like Peter Cheese. I'm getting so excited I can't get my words out. Peter Cheese, who is a big cheese, is the CEO of CIPD, Chartered Institute of Personal Development. Is that right, Lee?
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottDr. Claire Fernandes, the Chief Medical Officer at the BBC, former guest and all-around superstar, and some woman called Leanne Am I saying this right? Is it Elliott?
Leanne ElliottElliott.
Al ElliottElliott.
Leanne ElliottThat's me.
Al ElliottSo Leanne is on that course too. She is. And so this is, as I said, I'm not shilling this. I'm not saying, oh, you should go and sign up for it, for, uh, for Amy's course because just because she's been on the show. It's genuine. If we didn't believe in it, we wouldn't be telling you. It's really, really good. Go to amymckeown.com. Check out the spelling in these, in the show notes, because I'm still not sure I'm saying your surname right. Okay, Leanne, it's on to my favorite time of the week. It's time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to the lovely Leanne. As I say each week, Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist with decades— no, she told me last time not to say decades—
Leanne Elliott1.6 decades.
Al Elliott1.6 decades of experience. She helps organizations create amazing workplace cultures, and it's her job to give you, our lovely listener, advice on work-related problems. Talking of work-related problems, here's the first one. Lee, I've been executive assistant for 2 years ago— 2 years now, and when I was hired to support a managing director It was for diary management, travel arrangements, and general admin tasks. However, over time, my role has evolved into something unrecognizable. One day I'm helping with client proposals, the next I'm managing our social media, and sometimes I'm even sitting in on creative briefs. While I appreciate learning new skills, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to prioritize my work. My boss will urgently need something from me, but I'm deep in a project for another department head who also thinks their work should be my priority. I often work late to catch up on my actual EA duties, uh, executive assistant, I, uh, I think duties, because my days are filled with these additional responsibilities. The extra work isn't reflected in my job title or salary, but I feel guilty saying no. Oh, that's common because everyone treats me like I'm being flexible and helpful. I don't wanna seem ungrateful, but how do I address this without damaging relationships or appearing a difficult employee?
Leanne ElliottWell, a few different things going on here, isn't there? First of all, congratulations for showing how valuable you are and, and how Yeah, how much value you add to the organisation to be given these extra tasks. Scope creep, role creep, fairly common, particularly if you were the first executive assistant. Maybe that role wasn't very well fleshed out. Few roles are, because no one really bothers to take the time to go through something called job analysis, which actually looks at what you want the job to do and how you want to contribute to the organisation. Without that, you get role creep, and that's where people start saying yes to everything and end up burning out.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottFun fact, well-being probably actually starts with recruitment. Anyway, I digress, sorry. Um, what I would say is, um, there's a few things here that I'm not gonna address the kind of the people-pleasing aspect of this because I think you probably know you should be saying no a little bit more. Um, if you wanna, if you wanna kind of look at that, send another question and we'll, we'll talk about that a bit more because I actually think there's some really practical things that you can do here that are going to help. Um, first of all, I think just start to make a little note of all the tasks that you're doing on a daily basis, or look back over the last couple of weeks, all the tasks you've done, write them down, type them up, start to group them into themes. So, whether it be travel, administration, proposals, sales meeting, creative, and just make a list of all the different things you're doing. And if you can, over kind of 2, 3 weeks, the percentage of your time you're spending on them. What you're really doing there is essentially your own job analysis. You're looking at the tasks that you're doing frequently and how long it's taking you. What you should be able to do then is look at that list and go, what do I actually want to be doing?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd what do I not wanna be doing? Or what could we maybe get in some other help that is maybe, doesn't need your experience at this point to come in and the tasks that they can do. So you're almost crafting your perfect job. job that you want to do moving forward, you can get rid of the stuff that you don't wanna do. This is an ideal starting place. Get rid of the stuff that you don't wanna do. Keep the stuff that you do and potentially identify areas where additional resource might be needed. Bearing in mind, you're the executive assistant to the MD. The MD wants business proposals. They don't— they wanna be able to make a decision based on information that you've given them. They don't wanna have to ask maybe loads and loads of questions. So, use the experience you've gained in terms of these sales meetings, these proposals, proposals to basically put together a proposal for your MD saying, look, when I joined 2 years ago, this job was very different. It's evolved. I'm very grateful for this opportunity. I've taken the time to look at what I've been doing over X number of months. This is what I'm doing my time. This is the percentage it's taking. This is the value I believe is adding to the business in terms of saving you time or making you money. Because that's all any MD wants, isn't it? Oh, you want to save time and make money.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo you're basically going with a pitch of, this is what I want my role to be. I've also done some research around what the market— typical market salary is for this type of role, um, which is this. So I want to be— my proposal is I formally move to this role as my official job description. This is the asserted salary and benefits package that is market fair to be delivered with that. And FYI, we also need a part-time admin assistant to take on these tasks in my job that now doesn't make sense for me to do. It's gonna cost X amount, and I've already crafted the job description. This is it. I can get it advertised and get somebody in post in the next month. What do you think?
Al ElliottThat is beautiful.
Leanne ElliottAnd then I think with that as well, on your list are gonna be some things that, you know, James down in accounts has asked you to do that he probably shouldn't have, that, you know, you might include in your job if you wanna keep doing those things. You might not if you don't. It might be your MD goes, I didn't know that they were asking you asking you to do that? That's outrageous. Um, but I think the fact is, any MD that's gonna get— any manager who's gonna get a really great solution to a problem they probably don't even know about, um, and just get an easy way to say yes, happy days. And if they say no, well, I think that really questions whether it's the right place for you. Now, given this role has evolved and your organization isn't willing to to reflect that. That doesn't take away from the experience that you've got. That doesn't take away from the fact that you've got and now collated that experience to update your resume, to apply for those roles that you've already researched, to get your market, um, typical salary. Um, so it's— none of this effort would be wasted even if it doesn't go the way you want it, because you've actually done 90% of the preparation you need to do to start looking for that role in the open market.
Al ElliottThat is one of your best answers. I absolutely love it. I love it. And I also love the idea that, um, when, when this person goes to the MD, they'll go, this is the problem, here's one potential solution. The MD, if they don't want to go down that road and don't want to spend more money, they'll go, well, don't worry about it, I'll stop Jeff from accounts from giving you all this other stuff because I want you to be— I want you for myself. So you're gonna win no matter what. It's such a brilliant, brilliant solution. Well done, Lee. Uh, we got question number 2 here. I got— so it's an email from a manager, and this is, this is quite cool. It's not cool at all, but it's quite funny. Makes me laugh. Last week, our finance director accidentally shared a spreadsheet with me that contained everyone's salaries, including leadership team pay.
Leanne ElliottOh, we all know where this is going. Who's getting paid more?
Al ElliottWell, I was shocked to discover huge disparities. For example, 2 of our key software developers are doing identical work but have a £15,000 difference in salary.
Leanne ElliottWow.
Al ElliottAnd one of our most talented project managers is earning significantly less than her less experienced male colleagues. I've always prided myself in being professional and discreet, but I'm really struggling to know what to do with this knowledge. What makes it worse is that we promote ourselves as a company as having a transparent, fair, and— and as a transparent and fair culture. We even won an award for it last year.
Leanne ElliottOh my gosh.
Al ElliottGoodness. Should I speak to the finance director and tell them that they messed up? Do I have an ethical obligation to do anything about this? Or do I just keep quiet? What do you think, Lee?
Leanne ElliottI don't think you can keep quiet if it's eating you up enough to send in a question, ask about it. I don't think keeping quiet at this point is an option, is it really? Unless you're going to leave this organisation very soon. Um, I think, you know what, let's give it, let's give it the benefit of the doubt in the first instance. What if we go to the finance director and go, hi, um, just so you know, this information came to me accidentally, and I have now noticed some discrepancies between pay maybe I don't understand what I'm looking at. Can you talk me through it? And particularly because the organization is really bullish on transparent, you know, accounting transparency and equality and equity and all that kind of stuff. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, and I don't want this misunderstanding to affect my work or how I feel about the organization. Do you mind talking me through it? And the finance director might go, do you know, I didn't even realize. I didn't even particularly look. I don't, you know, I'm not that involved necessarily with payroll, or this is historical legacy framework that I inherited from another finance director 12 months ago. I didn't realize it was the case. It might be that they go very aware of this, but this, um, situation in, you know, current conversations with the MD to correct it. There could, there could be just maybe, um, some signs that, that, that this is either not known to the, the FD or is under control. That said, more than likely It won't, and the FD will be aware of this and won't give us goobies, which means they'll probably get quite defensive, probably brush you off with, with, yeah, random excuses.
Al ElliottThat's an old spreadsheet from 2 years ago.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think it's fair to say, is the, you know, as a follow-up question in that scenario, is the MD aware? Um, and if they, you know, depending on how they answer that, might give you some clues of whether they really are aware or not. At that point then, really, it's how— it's how much. Because the thing is, what's tricky is that by the sound of it, the salary discrepancies aren't impacting you directly, which means you're gonna have to disclose confidential information about somebody else to somebody else. Do you know what I mean? If I'd found out that I was getting paid £15,000 less than my colleague, that's information that is, is mine. I can do something with it.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottthat. I can go to my MD and challenge that. But you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to share information about 2, you know, third parties. That's where it makes it a bit tricky. I mean, honestly, in that situation, you might want to look if your organization has a whistleblowing policy. Not organizations do. If it does, it will explain to you what your rights are in, in terms of protecting you in that environment if you do go down that road. Um, it's, it's tricky after that if your FD isn't forthcoming with what the situation is. Yeah, tricky problem. First step would be to go to the FD and just understand exactly— like we always said, spend some time to understand the problem before we come with a solution. And I think that's the first thing to do. Go to your FD, try and understand the problem a little bit more. If you get some more information, write back in again and we'll, uh, move forward.
Al ElliottPlot twist, the FD sent it to this person who's written in Knowing that it's going to gnaw them up and they'll do something about it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, it could be that they're looking for it for an ally to join forces with.
Al ElliottYeah, that's probably not something you want to assume when you're going to the FD. You probably want to assume— what is it they say? Hope for peace but prepare for war. So, uh, perhaps be a little bit careful with that.
Leanne ElliottI mean, the other thing you could do if you want— and I'm not saying you should do this, but one could— and particularly if it was a TV program, a movie, what someone would probably do is Yeah.
Al ElliottWhat you're gonna say.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat you would leave it in the photocopier.
Leanne ElliottOh no, but you could do that as well if organizations still have photocopiers. Probably shows the last time we were in a workplace. Um, no, I was gonna say more like you forward it on to the MD, copy in the FD, and go, sorry, I think this wasn't meant for me, I think it was meant for you.
Al ElliottThat's still, that's still a fairly, fairly legit strategy.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I'd probably have that conversation with the FD first.
Al ElliottYeah, maybe. You don't want to, you don't want to make an enemy of the FD. No. You don't, you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you. Uh, FT usually does your salary, doesn't it? Okay, Leanne, I have got the 3rd and final question for the surgery. This person is a business owner, writes in and says, after attending a leadership workshop about psychological safety last month— oh, well done, not many people do that— I installed an anonymous suggestion box hoping to get thoughtful feedback about how we can improve the workplace. Instead, I'm pretty sure our top 2 salespeople are using it as their personal comedy show. Last week's suggestions included installing a workplace ball pit for creative thinking, replacing all desk chairs with space hoppers for better posture, and starting a company band called the KPIs. Well, I actually found myself laughing at the company band suggestion, and I, and I do appreciate that your shows are engaged enough to put effort into these jokes. I am worried this is discouraging others from using the box to give genuine feedback. Should I address this head-on, maybe with some humor of my own, or should I just keep quietly disposing of the more ridiculous suggestions and hope that eventually we'll get some serious ones?
Leanne ElliottI think you should address it head-on with some humor. Here's what I'd do, right? I would get a small ball pit and put it in the break room. I would get a couple of space hoppers and put it at the desk that you suspect these people were suggesting to come through, or just pick a couple and say, we're trying this out, let me know what you think. Because I think the thing is, is that what that will actually demonstrate is that you're gonna take the feedback seriously and implement it if it's sensible to do so. And of course, this is a silly example, but it shows that actually this isn't just feedback for the sake of feedback. Your intention as the business owner is to action it and implement these changes. And that might be a really nice, funny, lighthearted way of going, I'm serious, if you give me the feedback, I will, I will make changes, I will implement changes, but I need this feedback. The other thing, being honest, is a channel for feedback, having an old-school suggestion box. Now, you didn't say whether it's actually a physical one or an email suggestion box. It's, it's very broad and it's very open to interpretation, as we've seen. Um, so it's one of those things where it's like, if somebody goes, um, is there anything I can do for you? You go, no, I'm all right, thanks.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIf someone goes, would you like a cup of tea? You'll go, oh yeah, I would, thanks. Actually, can I have coffee? Like an infinite number of, do you know what I mean, feedback options often leads us to, oh, I don't— yeah, no, I'm fine, everything's fine. Whereas you're like, if— are you satisfied with the split of your time in work and your time at home? It's a very yes or no answer. It's a very binary answer.
Al ElliottAnd just to be clear, that's a good question where you have—
Leanne ElliottYeah, because you want to force people into a choice.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottWhether that be a yes or a no, or a, what we call a Likert scale, 5 to 1, strongly agree, strongly disagree, because it forces people to make a choice of opinion either way. And that's really the data that's gonna give us some ideas. So it might be that people aren't overly unhappy with the lunch cooking facilities, but actually nobody is a 5 out of 5, everyone's around a 2 to 3, like no one thinks it's awful, but it's not great. But they might not moan about it, but it's going to give you those insights. Again, a silly example, because actually what you probably want to be talking about in your feedback is relationships and going on in the organization, how connected people feel to their work, how manageable their workloads are. Do they have the equipment and resources that they need to do their job effectively? Do they feel able to separate work and home life? Do they have those rest and recovery activities in place? These are all the lovely things you want to do to create a great culture, to improve engagement. And to nurture well-being. So I think fundamentally, heart's in the right place.
Al ElliottSuggestion box in the wrong place.
Leanne ElliottSuggestion box is in the wrong place. Um, but what is lovely is you've got the relationships, the banter, um, and that seeming camaraderie and openness to, um, you know, to poke a little bit of fun because your people are probably thinking the same thing, you know, right idea, wrong execution. So I would, I would embrace it. Do something silly. Pull everyone together in a meeting. Get some space hoppers so those who want to can sit on them. Um, and just kind of make the point, I'm serious about this. I'm serious about if you make suggestions that, um, I will, um, take some, some action. That said, I appreciate it was a very, you know, broad way of doing that. This is what I'm going to do moving forward. I'm going to call Leanne. She's going to come and do the RX-7. We'll have all the data we need to create an awesome workplace where people thrive, our customers think we're ace, and we make a shit ton of money.
Al ElliottLovely. Yes, you should do that. Do all those things. Do call Leanne, and then all those things will happen. The fact is that the feedback you're getting so far on a generic scale is that, um, is that the feedback box isn't right for feedback.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottBut, um, they care enough to give you feedback, which is cool.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And they've also got some creativity and innovation in your team, haven't you? Imagine if you can channel that in other ways that you know, they're going to support the business and the people in it. I think you've actually got the makings of a really great, cool, fun workplace.
Al ElliottOkay, I think that's all for today. Um, if you have a question you'd like me to put to Leanne, then check the show notes. There's ways to get in touch. Um, we're back next Tuesday with another edition of This Week in Work. And of course, this and almost every Thursday, we bring you a great interview with cool guests who have real stories about building amazing workplace culture. Which is just— I say almost because over Christmas, uh, like Christmas Day and New Year's Day, it's very slightly differently different. But there'll still be guests, but it's not just one guest. There you go, a bit of a teaser for you.
Leanne ElliottUntil then, make sure you have subscribed to the show, whatever platform you get your podcasts on. And if you really want to support us, consider leaving a review maybe, or posting on LinkedIn about how awesome we are.
Al ElliottAll right, that's all for now. Say goodbye, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottGoodbye, Leanne.
Al ElliottBye guys, bye.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottYeah, to be fair, you've only done it 151 times. Health and mental health. Have I got that right, Lee?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat all you got to say about it?
Leanne ElliottI thought you had more to say.
Al ElliottI had no more to say.
Leanne ElliottI was just checking in.
Al ElliottSorry, should we just do that little bit again?
Leanne ElliottSorry, you weren't interested? No, I don't know. I'm sorry.
Al ElliottUm, should. Seamless. Absolutely seamless. We should have had a discussion about this before. All right, we'll go. We'll leave you alone. I don't know why I said that. It's a bit creepy.