Episode 153 · 12 December 2024 · 52:13
The truth about working with schizophrenia, with Kody Green, The Schizophrenic Hippie
Featuring Kody Green
The truth about working with schizophrenia, with Kody Green, The Schizophrenic Hippie
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Introducing Kody — The Schizophrenic Hippie
What is schizophrenia? Symptoms, delusions, and paranoia
The most common misconceptions about schizophrenia
Positive vs. negative symptoms — what people don't expect
Kody's reality checks: service dogs, smart glasses, and coping tools
"You'll never work again" — the diagnosis that fueled his comeback
interview#diagnosis#recovery#workplace
Re-entering the workplace: trial, error, and resilience
interview#workplace#resilience#mental-health
Kody's book, Minds Over Meetings
interview#book#mental-health#workplace
Practical accommodations for employers
Why hiring people with mental illness is good for business
interview#hiring#mental-health#business
Show notes
The Truth About Working with Schizophrenia — with Kody Green, The Schizophrenic Hippie
Guest: Kody Green — mental health advocate, author of Minds Over Meetings, and creator of The Schizophrenic Hippie (1.3M+ followers on TikTok).
Schizophrenia affects how a person thinks, feels, and perceives reality — yet it remains one of the most misunderstood conditions in the workplace. Kody Green joins Al and Leanne to share his extraordinary journey from losing everything to thriving professionally, and to bust the myths that keep talented people out of work.
Kody gets real about what schizophrenia actually looks like day-to-day, the "reality checks" he uses to stay grounded (including smart glasses and a service dog), and what happened when a doctor told him he'd never work again. He also shares practical accommodations employers can make, why second-chance hiring matters, and how he's using his platform to challenge misconceptions — one TikTok at a time.
Top 3 Takeaways
- Schizophrenia does not mean violent or dangerous. The media has done a disservice to the 24 million people worldwide living with schizophrenia — with the right support, they can and do thrive in the workplace.
- Accommodations don't have to be complicated. From flexible scheduling to simple communication adjustments, small changes make a massive difference. Kody shares what actually helps — and it's often simpler than you'd think.
- Second chances pay off. People with severe mental illness are often incredibly loyal, hardworking, and grateful for the opportunity. Kody's own story — from being told he'd never work again to building a thriving career — proves the ROI of inclusive hiring.
More From Kody Green
- YouTube: youtube.com/c/schizophrenichippie
Mental Health Resources
If you've been affected by any of the themes in this episode, or are currently struggling with your mental health, the following resources may be useful:
- Mind website: mind.org.uk/information-support
- If you are feeling in distress or despair, including feelings of suicide, please consider calling the Samaritans for free on 116 123 (UK) or email jo@samaritans.org (Rest of World)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Kody GreenNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYes, we are. Well, hello, hello, hello, hello, welcome, welcome, and hello to you if you are a brand new listener. And if you listened before, then welcome back. You know the score, but just give me a couple of seconds to explain to the lovely newbies how this little pod works. Right, every Tuesday we bring you the weekly fix of workplace news, spicy takes from our expert panel, and our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne, who's sitting opposite there. And every Thursday, like today, we sit down with someone who is an expert in the workplace and ask them the questions that most podcasters are afraid to.
Leanne ElliottYes, and today we are continuing our series on mental illness following a call to action from Mind CEO Dr. Sarah Hughes for practitioners and business leaders to expand the mental health conversation. Our first episode in this series explored psychopathy with Dr. Abby Marsh. Go back to episode 131 if you want to listen to that. And today we're exploring another mental illness that is experienced by 21 million people worldwide— schizophrenia. To help us, we're very excited to welcome an incredible guest, Kody Green, a mental health advocate with almost 2 million followers across socials. Kody shares his experiences of living with schizophrenia and how, with the right support, people with this diagnosis can thrive in the workplace. USA Today and even Saturday Night Live did a joke about Kody's dog. Don't worry, Kody enjoyed it. And in this episode, we'll be answering 3 key questions.
Al ElliottNumber 1, what is schizophrenia? What symptoms do people experience? And what are we getting wrong about people living with this mental illness? Number 2, how did Kody go from being told by his doctor that he would never work again to successfully integrating in the workplace? And number 3, what can employers learn and do to make the workplace an easier place for people with schizophrenia and other mental illnesses? Kody has an incredible TikTok channel with millions of views which document his life living with schizophrenia and also has some really interesting hacks he's developed for identifying the difference between hallucinations and real life.
Leanne ElliottIt's a fascinating story, and Kody is so open about everything he has been through, bringing humor and honesty to every aspect of his story. And he's also got a book coming out in January called Mind Over Meetings. a personal perspective on wellness in the workplace. This is going to be essential reading for any leader or HR professional who wants to make their workplace as inclusive as possible.
Al ElliottSo let's join the interview where we meet Kody, hear his story, and learn what it was like to return to work after such a difficult time.
Kody GreenMy name is Kody Green. I am a schizophrenia advocate, mental health advocate, uh, and most recently I've been, uh, trying to really advocate for mental health and mental illness in the workforce. Um, but I, I've tried to use my voice and my lived experiences to share, um, about what my life has been like navigating these different challenges through recovery, uh, addiction, mental illness, uh, and then trying to rebuild my life after all of these setbacks.
Leanne ElliottI want to start right at the beginning because I think everyone listening, probably, or the majority, would have heard of schizophrenia. but probably don't really understand what it is or maybe afraid to ask. Can you explain what schizophrenia is and how it has affected your life?
Kody GreenYeah. So schizophrenia is a mental illness that causes hallucinations, delusions, paranoia. It can also cause issues with memory, motivation. It's basically a separation from reality. So when I was in college, I started having Auditory and visual hallucinations, as well as delusions and paranoia. And that led to me dropping out of college. I lost my job, and I fell into addiction as a way to try to self-medicate with the symptoms I was having. This wasn't actually my first experience with mental illness or with schizophrenia. I actually was a caregiver for my mother with schizoaffective disorder when I was growing up. So I, I actually knew quite a bit about the illness. But unfortunately, the way that schizophrenia works in the brain is even with all of the knowledge I had about mental illness and schizophrenia, I still couldn't identify that that's what was going on with me when it started happening. So I spent several years struggling with addiction that eventually led to me being incarcerated. And it was— it wasn't until, you know, years later that I was able to get a proper diagnosis, medication, treatment.
Al ElliottWow.
Kody GreenAnd I had to start rebuilding my life, which meant I had to start learning how to be out in public again and socialize. And I had burned all these bridges through my illness and through my addiction. And so I had to try to get back to working and be able to function day to day just like anyone else.
Leanne ElliottCan you give us a kind of an idea of when you were— it was at its most acute, you weren't in treatment, and what you're experiencing on a day-to-day basis and just how disruptive that was to your life.
Kody GreenYeah, so I mean, like I said, I, I had basically lost everything. I was, uh, struggling with addiction. I was on the verge of, of going to jail. And a lot of what was happening was I was dealing with daily auditory and visual hallucinations. So I was seeing and hearing things that weren't there. I was having paranoid thoughts that the people around me were trying to get me locked up. So Um, my, my paranoia and delusions got so severe that I wouldn't eat food that my wife made me because I thought she was trying to sedate me or poison me. I thought people were watching me constantly. And then I would have very severe delusions of, uh, of different things that weren't really happening, you know, of, uh, the voices trying to convince me that something in my life was going on that really wasn't. And I didn't have the, the intelligence or, or capacity at the time to understand what was really happening. Because when, when I was struggling with these hallucinations, delusions, and paranoid thoughts, I believed 100% that that was all really happening. So that was my reality. And I don't think people quite understand that when I talk about hallucinations now that I'm medicated, I can almost differentiate between what's real and what's not.
Al ElliottYeah.
Kody GreenBack then, there was no question in my brain that what I was experiencing was real. So when I was hearing these voices and they were telling me to, uh, when they were telling me to like quit my job or, or stop showing up for school or, or run away and, and use drugs and like all of these things, uh, it wasn't something that I, I could understand was fake. I, I believed in my heart and in my brain that all of this was really happening.
Al ElliottYeah.
Kody GreenAll of the delusions that I had, I thought were really going on. And so it was such a split from reality that I was essentially living a different life than I am now. So it wasn't until I got medicated that I was able to like actually get some clarity and start looking back on all of the things I went through and start really identifying like what was a delusion versus what was really going on in my life.
Leanne ElliottWhat are the The main misconceptions you've seen here about schizophrenia or people living with schizophrenia? What are some of the, maybe the myths that we can put right?
Kody GreenThere's some that are just so common that I hear them almost every single day. The first one is that people assume that individuals with schizophrenia aren't able to live full and functional lives, even with medication and treatment. This is something that even I believed before my diagnosis. Um, before I met other patients, before I met peers, before I learned about what schizophrenia was, I assumed that no one could be, uh, functioning with that illness. And so that's a huge misconception that I've learned over the years, having now met many people living full and functional lives with my diagnosis. Uh, I also hear a lot of people who still assume that schizophrenia is associated with, uh, being violent or dangerous. Uh, this has been, you know, since very discussed and, and disproven because they, they're able to show that people with schizophrenia are more likely to be victims of violent crimes than to commit violent crimes. But, uh, people with schizophrenia do make up some of the highest, uh, rates of homelessness, uh, incarceration, and suicide. So, uh, there is a lot of issues in the community, but violence isn't one that is like a top And the last thing that I hear, and this is more of just a technical thing, I still hear a lot of people mix up schizophrenia with DID, or what used to be known as multiple personality disorder, because of movies and TV shows. Unfortunately, schizophrenia isn't always painted in the best image, and that also leads to a lot of people having a misconception about what it is or how it affects people.
Leanne ElliottSo the common symptoms that people might understand about schizophrenia are the hallucinations. Are there any other symptoms that you'd want to, to kind of flag up that might often be overlooked but could lead to a diagnosis?
Kody GreenYeah, I think people are always really shocked that individuals with schizophrenia have both positive symptoms, which are the hallucinations, delusions, and paranoia. They also have negative and cognitive symptoms. So some of the things I've dealt with have been issues with my memory, lack of motivation, an inability to take care of myself. Uh, and then, uh, struggles with like personal hygiene throughout my years. And so a lot of that has tied back to my diagnosis, and I've had to find different coping mechanisms for those things throughout the years. Uh, and a lot of that, it's frustrating because I didn't know that those were symptoms of schizophrenia when I was diagnosed. Uh, all I had ever known once I got my diagnosis was about the positive symptoms. Uh, and, and a lot of what you'll see, uh, for from people with schizophrenia is they'll also have issues speaking or being able to communicate thoughts and feelings. There's a lot of difficulty when it comes to socializing. So you see a lot of people isolate themselves or withdraw from society because they're too nervous about their symptoms. They're embarrassed about their diagnosis because of the stigma surrounding it. So there's a lot of things like that that I think people have to look out for. If they're worried about a loved one who might be possibly struggling with a schizophrenia diagnosis, it doesn't always look like someone hallucinating. It can look like someone who's isolating themselves and might be seeming more depressed, might be less social, might be talking less, and unable to communicate their thoughts and feelings, stuff like that.
Leanne ElliottI want to ask you about these reality checks that you've you've talked about, and specifically the ones that I've seen you create content on, which is so, so cool, um, and I'd love you to share, is about your dog and also how some of the VR technologies is helping with that.
Kody GreenThere's several things that I use kind of in my daily life now to like reality check as a coping mechanism. Um, the first one you mentioned is my dog Luna, who over the last year has become more famous than me. Uh, she Uh, I featured a video where, uh, I kind of showed what she does as a psychiatric service dog. So she is trained to help me identify visual hallucinations, uh, and the way she does that is she's trained to greet people on command. So if I ask her to greet and she runs up and, and greets the person, I know that they're there. If she sits down and looks up at me instead, I know that no one is there and that I'm having symptoms. And so I shared a video of her doing that. And it has over 50 million views across platforms now. And like USA Today did a story about me and Luna. Saturday Night Live even made a joke about me and Luna. So it reached, it reached a lot of people. And, uh, it was another one of those things where like I didn't realize how little people knew about it because when I got Luna, I didn't know that psychiatric service dogs were even a thing. And when people saw that video in the comment section, I realized that that was the case for most people. And now I'm hearing that there's new grants available. There's people starting nonprofits trying to help get funding for individuals so that they can get access to service dogs like this. It's, it's one of those things, like you said, where I'm impacting things more than I ever intended to. I was just trying to show people my own lived experience and how she helps me. Uh, the same goes for my other coping mechanisms. I've been integrating a lot of technology into, um, trying to reality check as well. So, um, my oldest technique is using my phone camera. So if I think I'm having a visual or auditory hallucination, I'll open up the camera and I'll record it, or I'll just look through the camera on my phone, and if I don't see the person on my camera, then I know they're not there. Um, I've been doing that technique for years, and, uh, I— people think that I came up with it because I, I think I was the first one to like show videos of me doing it online, like using that technique. And I still— like, I've posted videos within the last month of me using that technique when I have breakthrough symptoms. Uh, but I actually, uh, I, I found out later on that other people use that technique too. But because of my social media following, all of a sudden I had people reaching out saying that, you know, they started using it to identify some of their symptoms and it's given them the confidence to go out in public again or like go look for jobs and stuff like that. Uh, and same like we had just talked about, uh, psychiatrists— I have psychiatrists reaching out to me telling me that they have recommended that to their patients, uh, that technique, and it's worked for a lot of them and they've been able to utilize that in their daily life. Um, I've went on to like find there's other things that I can use too. I have a security camera in my office that I also will use as a way of reality checking. Uh, and I've even been lucky enough to use like, uh, I was sent Meta Ray-Ban smart glasses that have a camera on them. So I can do the same thing where I record whatever's happening around me. It's a little more discreet, so it's less embarrassing that I'm like pulling out my phone and recording things.
Al ElliottYeah.
Kody GreenUh, but I use the glasses and then I can go back on my phone and play it back just to make sure that, um, if I was hallucinating, I can reality check and, and know that for the future. So it's just to give me more, um, stability, but it's also helped ground me in reality more.
Al ElliottOkay, after this very short break, we're gonna hear more from Kody. We're gonna hear how one doctor told him he'd never work again and how he proved that doctor very wrong, plus how he got to hundreds of millions of views on social media. And finally, What employers can do to make reasonable accommodations for anyone with schizophrenia. Don't go anywhere.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Kody GreenAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking.
Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Kody GreenUh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like Their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Kody GreenIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Kody GreenI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
Kody GreenDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. Let's start with Kody's journey back into work. Kody had a plan. He had dreams and ambitions. And all these dreams came crashing down when a doctor told him it would be impossible for him to work ever. Kody not only refused to believe this but proved this doctor very, very wrong. Leanne asked Kody about his journey back into work and what advice he might have for someone listening who wants to disclose their condition to an employer.
Kody GreenThe, the big thing about rebuilding my life, and whether it was getting back to work or just being able to kind of learn how to function again, uh, for me, the, the biggest thing was having to mourn my old life because I, I had this life that I thought I was gonna live, right? I, I knew what I wanted to do. I was in college to be a teacher. I had all of these dreams and goals of ambitions. And suddenly at 18 years old, having never had any symptoms of schizophrenia, you know, I, I had been a caregiver for my mom, but I myself had never had delusions or paranoia. So when I, when I— So when I went off to college, I assumed that, you know, I was going to be a functioning person with all of these goals. And then I had my psychotic break and suddenly it was like I lost that life. And so like all of the things I do now, I'm so appreciative. I love being able to advocate for other people and talk about mental health and mental illness and share my experiences about, you know, mental health and mental illness in the workforce. But this was not my plan. This was not what I intended to do. And so I think individuals with any mental illness, not just schizophrenia, but bipolar disorder, whatever, whatever it is they struggle with, a lot of us are kind of forced into these new lives without being able to look back and say, hey, you know, I need time to mourn what I lost. I never got the time to do that early on. And you can't really be excited about rebuilding your life until you get a chance to deal with what you're not able to do now. Um, or, uh, in the case of a lot of people with, uh, severe mental illness, uh, it takes years to be able to get back to work or get back to, um, being able to communicate effectively or, um, start trusting people around you or trusting your surroundings. Uh, when you have a disorder that literally causes paranoia and delusions, um, it's very hard to get grounded in reality again. So for me, a lot of recovery was Um, trying to figure out ways to cope with what I was going through, but also trying to find ways to be comfortable rebuilding this new life.
Leanne ElliottI saw a video that you made that when you got your diagnosis, the doctor that you were working with said you'd more than likely never work again.
Kody GreenYeah, it's, um, it's something I talk about a lot because I think people— it's, it's a little bit of a wow factor. I don't think people realize that, especially when they see me now. Um, you know, they, they see me quote unquote high functioning, and they find it really interesting to hear that a doctor told me that I would never work. Uh, part of that I think is they don't know how bad my symptoms were when I was diagnosed. Because I'm, uh, you know, as high functioning as I am, a lot of people assume that I had like minor symptoms because they couldn't imagine someone with such severe symptoms being able to live a full and functional life. And that kind of goes back to the misconceptions about what schizophrenia can look like with the right treatment, medication, and support. And so, uh, when I was first diagnosed, um, I had— I, you know, I— you go through so many medical professionals when you go through a diagnosis like this, uh, and I ended up meeting with a doctor who, you know, I was telling them that, you know, now that I had this diagnosis, I was going to try to start working again and At this time, I was still having a lot of hallucinations. I was still having paranoid thoughts. I, you know, I had just started medication. And to the doctor's credit, um, you know, some studies show that like upwards of 90% of people with schizophrenia are unemployed or unable to work. So like, I, I don't think he was trying to be mean or judgmental, but he told me, uh, when I said that, you know, I was excited to start looking at working again and getting back into the workforce, he basically said to me that I wasn't going to be able to work because people with schizophrenia don't do that. And so it really, you know, broke my heart because I believed him. Uh, you know, when you have a diagnosis like that and you're just starting to get clarity from medication, uh, you're— you trust the doctors, you know, because they know more about— I, at one point, I didn't even know that I was struggling with schizophrenia. So Who am I to believe my own thoughts and feelings? You know, uh, so it, it was really impactful because this is a medical professional. This is someone that otherwise I always listened to. Uh, early in my diagnosis, I knew that I needed to trust these people in order to get better. And so when a doctor said that, I thought that was fact. I didn't think it was an option. I was like, okay, I'm not going to be able to work.
Leanne ElliottAnd let's talk about work. What was your journey from Um, or going— re-entering the workplace and then moving on to, to be the mental health advocate in the work that you do today?
Kody GreenJust like my journey with medication, it was, uh, a lot of trial and error. Um, the difficult thing about people with severe mental illness is a lot of us end up either struggling with addiction or we end up with criminal records, uh, both of which make it very hard to hold full-time jobs. So when I got out of jail, um, not only did I have this new schizophrenia diagnosis, I also had a criminal record, which makes it hard to even get in front of people to apply for jobs. So I had just another barrier. And then when I did get jobs, I didn't want to ever talk about my illness beforehand. I didn't want to disclose my illness because I was afraid I'd get fired. And so for me, I had to basically try to hide my diagnosis. You can only do that for so long because even, even people with no mental illness can go through burnout. And I was trying so hard to prove myself because I had a criminal record, I had a severe mental illness, I had a past of addiction. So I knew that I wouldn't get a lot of good opportunities. So when I got jobs, I found myself pushing myself into burnout, which for me probably came sooner than most people because I did have mental illness.
Al ElliottI did.
Kody GreenUm, have this diagnosis. Um, but I see people do it all the time, and it can be anything from a really toxic work environment to trying to take on too much in their own role. And I started seeing a lot of similarities between, um, people with, uh, mental health issues, people with mental illness, and the ways they try to cope in the workplace and the ways they push themselves way too far. Um, and so I, I got fired from a lot of jobs early on because I wasn't disclosing my illness. I wasn't asking for accommodations. I didn't know my rights as a worker. And when I got somewhat stable on medication, right before I started doing mental health advocacy, I actually went back to school for human resource management, which gave me very good insights into not just employment But, uh, interviews and interview questions and preparing for all of these scenarios, which got me into some really, uh, good opportunities that I don't think most people with my mental illness and my, uh, criminal record would get. So I started getting out of the early jobs that I had, which were manual labor, production, manufacturing, distribution And I was starting to find myself in office roles and in leadership positions and in sales and like intricate jobs that I don't think people would see a schizophrenia diagnosis and assume that that person could do these jobs, you know. And so it was a long journey, but I eventually found that in order to be successful in the workplace, I had to, um, you know, as soon as I got hired, I disclosed my Uh, illness to HR and my direct manager. I usually informed some of my closer coworkers so they knew what to look for if I did start having symptoms. Uh, because I, I think it's also important to note that, uh, for anyone who's listening who doesn't know a lot about mental illness or schizophrenia, even with medication and treatment and being pretty high functioning, I still do have breakthrough symptoms like hallucinations.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Kody GreenUh, and so I have to like be prepared for those. I have to know how to cope with those, and I need accommodations for if things like that happen. So learning about all of that is really what made it possible for me to work. Um, had I not learned, uh, from more of the HR side how to advocate for myself and how to, uh, know what to ask for in terms of reasonable accommodations, I think I would have just kept getting fired because I wouldn't have had the ability to Uh, speak up for myself or, or know, uh, what I can do as a worker.
Al ElliottKody has 1.3 million followers on TikTok and 43 million likes and hundreds of million views. Leanne wanted to know how Kody started on TikTok and how this led to psychiatrists and doctors actually coming to him for advice.
Kody GreenIt's one of those weird things where I, I'm kind of like in a more professional business role now with everything I do. I do speaking events, I do a lot of conferences and stuff like that. Um, and it, it all came from the roots of TikTok and my, uh, my time on social media as Schizophrenic Hippie, which is my username. Um, that's where all of this started. And this is, uh, it, it really goes to show, I think, how much good can be done with social media. We always hear about how badly it can affect people and how negative it can be for mental health. Uh, but there's a lot of good that can come out of spreading awareness, sharing your stories.
Al ElliottYeah.
Kody GreenAnd I've learned more than I think I've taught. I, I'm very grateful to be in a role where, you know, I have, uh, almost 2 million followers across platforms. I'm able to reach people literally all over the world, um, and I'm able to share my story of addiction and mental illness and, uh, schizophrenia. But a lot of what I share is not only my lived experiences It's stuff that I've learned from my community. It's stuff that I've learned from the doctors who follow me, the psychiatrists who follow me, the patients, the caregivers, the HR professionals, the CEOs. It's like I have people from every wake of life that follow me and help me better understand what mental illness looks like for people with different backgrounds than me. You know, I I think it's important to acknowledge that, um, what I went through, uh, in my own journey is going to be different than what other people go through in underserved communities. Or if there's someone from a community who doesn't believe in mental health or mental illness and they don't talk about it, they don't address it. There's communities where people just don't have access to doctors and psychiatrists, or people can't afford those services. Um, I had everything. I had, uh, you know, I had access to medication and treatment and insurance. And so there are people with different backgrounds that I think need to be sharing their stories too, to give a better idea of what this really looks like as a journey through mental health and mental illness. And I try to incorporate some of those stories into the book. I actually shared the stories also of Michelle Hammer and Gabe Howard. And Michelle is another schizophrenia advocate. Gabe Howard is a bipolar advocate, uh, and they both shared stories of losing their jobs over the years and trying to figure out, um, how to use advocacy to prevent that from happening to other people in the future. So, uh, TikTok is really— it's where I got started. I, uh, people will make fun of me because I actually have a TikTok tattoo, uh, and I try to explain to people It's really my roots. It's, it's what started everything I have today, and it's still one of the most supportive communities, um, to this day. Uh, I've, I've been really lucky to grow platforms on, on other social media and be able to do a lot of speaking and stuff, but TikTok is always there for me. My community is people that have followed me literally since 2018. Um, I have people that have been following— I have 1.3 million followers now. I have people that have been following me since I was at 10,000 followers who still talk to me, who still engage with me, and who gave me a lot of the motivation to do what I do today. They are the reason that I wrote a book. They are the reason I started doing speaking. They are the ones who gave me confidence to, uh, be able to share my story. And so I cannot say enough about TikTok and the communities that are on there. At face value, I think it can be easy to judge TikTok if you don't know the, the great communities that people are building on there. But I am eternally grateful for having that platform. Early on, I had a lot of patients reach out to me telling me that my stories were helping them feel less alone in their own journey. And I had caregivers telling me that Uh, my stories made them better understand their loved one with schizophrenia, and that felt amazing to know that I was making that difference. But as I continue making content, I started having doctors and psychiatrists reach out to me and tell me that some of the coping mechanisms I use, um, they've been implementing with their patients and they've been finding success with that. Or I've had psychiatrists tell me, um, I was recently at a conference for Uh, psychiatrists and psychologists, and it's one of the biggest conferences in America. And I had a psychiatrist come up to me, and he's been a psychiatrist for over 40 years. He found my TikTok 2 years ago, and he told me that my page made him realize that he had been really only looking for baseline stability for his patients because he had been convinced by, you know, his teachings, by what he learned. That you were just supposed to get people with schizophrenia to a baseline of stability and that's it. Like, anything past that is, is almost like a wish. It's, it's unreasonable to assume that people will get anything more than stable enough to be on disability. He said that me and my content and the people that I feature on there, being other schizophrenia advocates, helped him realize that he could really go forward and try new treatments, try new medication. Try to get them past just baseline stability and try to get them into— and I don't like the term high functioning, but I don't know a better one yet, so I use the term high functioning— but basically get them into a more high functioning life. Because, uh, you know, schizophrenia diagnosis is not that old in the DSM, and like our treatments for it are also not that old. And so there's still a lot we're learning about not just schizophrenia but all mental illness and all mental health issues. And so, uh, he, he really inspired me. And it's been, uh, crazy to like, to know that I've been affecting the way that doctors and psychiatrists look at this mental illness. People ask why I became a mental health advocate. Um, and I don't think anyone chooses it, right? Like, I didn't want to be a mental health advocate. I made the best of the situation I have. But as I started making content, I realized the reason I do it is because I grew up in a very rural area where I didn't know a lot about my diagnosis besides what I learned from my mom. I didn't think that people could live functioning lives with it. I didn't think people could work with this illness. I believed everything that I've told you guys for the last hour isn't true. You know, I believed all of it because that's what I was taught. That's what mental illness was. That's what schizophrenia was. And in my community, people almost made it seem like a fault of your own if you struggled, like you were just supposed to be strong enough to not deal with mental illness or mental health issues. Uh, essentially the way I look at my advocacy now is I just want to be the voice that I needed when I was being diagnosed. I just want to be that person for someone that they can look at and be like, hey, here's a person with my diagnosis living a full and functional life. That must mean that I can do it too, because I didn't have that. You know, TV shows and movies always portray people with schizophrenia as either completely insane or locked in an institution or trying to harm someone else. It's, it's not painted in a way where you think, oh yeah, anyone can live with this illness. And so I'm just trying to be essentially that face for schizophrenia. I would rather people think about me and my journey than a movie they saw with a schizophrenic character that's poorly misrepresented. And so I want to try to be that person that I needed when, when I felt very alone and I felt like I had nothing to look forward to.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think that leads us nicely on to your book, Minds Over Meetings. Can you tell us what What— tell us what inspired you to write it, what we can expect to learn from it.
Kody GreenYeah, and I mean, basically everything that we've talked about has been the main drivers in why I wanted to write this book. Um, I felt so disappointed when a doctor told me I would never work again. Uh, and I, I remember the, the very first story I tell in the book is actually not about my experience with the doctor. It was about going into HR and disclosing my illness for the first time. And I talk about how nervous I was and how scared I was. And, um, with everything going on in my life, I was just terrified that I might lose that job. Uh, and instead I was met with support and they had resources for me. And I was able to start looking into things like EAPs or employee assistant programs. I was able to start utilizing FMLA so that if I missed time, I wouldn't be automatically let go for, um, needing psychiatric care or having to be in the hospital for several days. And so all of the sudden I found that just talking about it gave me the opportunity to have more access to resources. It gave me the ability to hold jobs longer. It gave me the ability to not only get a job, but to thrive with a company. Um, and I can't tell you the amount of times that I've met with patients and all I hear is them wanting to go back to work, but either a doctor or a caregiver or a parent told them that it's not possible. They're, they're just going to be on disability and that is what it is. Um, and for me, that's so crushing because I, I was told that, you know, and I want people with, uh, not just a mental illness diagnosis. But let's not forget that everyone has mental health, which means everyone at some point can experience mental health issues. That is just— that's the reality of our world, is every single person can and usually will experience some sort of severe mental health issue. And we see burnout— workplaces being the number one cause of burnout in people. So Um, all of this is really so— it's already very integrated, and we just haven't been addressing it in the way that it should be. And so I wanted to write a book not just for people with mental illness, not just for people who might be going through struggles with mental health, but I wanted to give it as a resource to anyone with an invisible disability, anyone who, uh, really just wants that that knowledge of what to do as a worker if something— if working is something that they're interested in trying again. Because it is important to acknowledge that not everyone with my diagnosis will be able to work. That unfortunately is also a truth that a lot of people with severe mental illness, because of the maybe late onset or not early access to medication, whatever it is, Some people will be left, uh, either in a cognitive state or symptomatic state that doesn't give them the opportunity to return to work. But there are people out there, and I've met them all over the country. I, I talk to people all over the world through social media who have diagnoses, who believe that they can start working again. Um, and I wanna make sure that we're utilizing this, this underused, uh, workforce because, uh, You know, it's— there's such high unemployment rates with, with every, every type of either disability, mental illness, or, um, developmental disability. And these people want to work, they want to have a purpose, and they're not able to find it without the right accommodations.
Al ElliottKody is obviously an incredible ambassador for people with schizophrenia, but he's also got firsthand experience of how businesses can get it wrong when trying to make reasonable adjustments for someone like him in the workplace. So Leanne asked Kody for advice for leaders and HR professionals on what they should be doing to provide more support. Oh, and if you think this is going to be difficult or expensive, Kody has a message just for you.
Leanne ElliottAnd for business owners who are listening, what are some of the accommodations that, that can be made for somebody with schizophrenia or, or another mental illness that does support them in, in the workplace?
Kody GreenI, I mean, so, uh, and I talk about this, uh, I talk about this a lot now Um, with all the projects I'm doing. Uh, but the difficult thing about accommodations is it's really going to depend on your mental illness, um, what symptoms you have, and then also what the workplace is. I, I know now looking back that some of my earlier jobs in production and manufacturing, they wouldn't have been able to offer me as many accommodations as like an office job because, uh, the work I was doing Uh, was— it was more dangerous. It was work I really shouldn't have been doing with the level of, um, you know, recovery or the, the status of my recovery. I wasn't in a really stable place that I should have been doing that type of work. Uh, once I got into jobs that I was, you know, I was better medicated and I was able to be a little more high functioning, I was able to communicate better. I started realizing that most of the accommodations I needed Um, were either just the ability to, uh, for example, when I was in sales, the ability to leave the floor if I recognized that I might be having symptoms or if I need to reality check my symptoms, stuff like that. Uh, and that doesn't even mean leave for the day or go home. There were times where it was severe enough I needed to, but it was more just being able to step away. Uh, and everyone that I worked with understood. And, uh, being in sales was one of my last jobs and Uh, it helped me realize that, you know, people around me were willing to accommodate me. They would say, hey, Kody, uh, a lot of the times my coworkers would recognize that I was having symptoms before I would, because I, I can't always tell until it's, you know, gone on for a long time and I start recognizing some of those things. But it can take me a long time to recognize symptoms, whereas my coworkers would know that, hey, if Kody starts Uh, getting more quiet, if he starts having any sort of, um, basically like, uh, I would start looking around in all different directions. There was, there was certain things that they knew to look out for, um, before my symptoms got really bad, and that would allow me to either take like my emergency medication or go back to the break room just for enough time to, uh, do a couple of my coping mechanisms and try to prevent, like, worsened symptoms. So for me, accommodations was just having the ability to, uh, really separate myself from the situation and give me time to use my coping mechanisms or strategies that I had learned in therapy. And sometimes that's all people need. But obviously, with each illness or disability, there's going to be people who need more accommodations and Uh, a lot of what HR and workplaces can do is help workers figure out what those accommodations may look like, uh, because, uh, sometimes workers aren't in a position or a condition to figure that out themselves. And so a lot of the accommodations I got in different workplaces were from working closely with HR and my direct managers to figure out, like, what can we do when this happens, or how do we react when this happens? Uh, but it is going to depend on the person. I don't think disclosing your illness is always going to have the best result, and I think that's really important. And it's not the answer that people want, but we need to be honest with ourselves in that companies are run by people, and people, individual people, have their own understanding of mental illness. There's a lot of stigma out there, so not everyone is going to be completely understanding of what you're going through. That's just, that's unfortunately the truth. I will say that in my own experience in organizations that have good HR teams, um, so, you know, it's unfortunate when you work for a very small company and they can't have, you know, an established HR team. I think that creates a lot of issues. But in, in, in companies I've worked at that have at least a small team of HR and they know what they need to do, they know what they're allowed to ask, they know what resources they can provide. I've almost always gotten good responses in those scenarios. Um, it hasn't always led to the best outcomes. Sometimes it's just a longer way of them eventually pushing me out. But for the most part, if I'm able to disclose early on, so before I have an episode or before something happens, if I'm able to disclose early on, Um, it generally helped, uh, companies have a better understanding of not just what I was dealing with but how to help me. And a lot of that is because when I would get hired, I would go straight to HR and say, hey, I have schizophrenia, it's a diagnosis I live with, uh, and I don't need accommodations right now, but I might in the future, and here's what that might look like. And almost prepare them for If and when that happens. And so for me, I think the tip I always give to anyone who's— who is struggling with mental illness and wants to get back to work is sometimes it just takes finding the right workplace. It takes finding the right position. And once again, it might be trial and error. You might try a couple jobs that don't work out or that don't fit you or don't suit your needs. Or accommodations, uh, and I think that's okay. And I think, uh, as unfortunate as it is to have to go through some of that, I think people need to be okay with trying things, uh, that might be suitable for them and their diagnosis. Part of what I hope to do with, uh, mental health and mental illness awareness is also bring, uh, leadership, HR, uh, executive directors, CEOs, into this conversation so that we can offer more accommodations, so that we can get to a point where it's not all on the worker to have to jump into 10 different roles to figure out what works for them. But we are still early, I think, in this journey of mental health and mental illness in the workplace. One of an interview I— in an interview I did recently, someone asked, where do you think we are? Do you think we're close to the finish line in this journey? And I basically always say the same thing. I'm like, I think we're just past the starting line. Like, I think we're there. I think we're finally making the right steps. I think people are starting to be able to recognize and bring awareness to mental illness in the workplace and be able to talk about mental health and provide resources. But I think we have a long way to go.
Leanne ElliottWhat would you say to any business owners that are thinking that all just sounds a bit too difficult? a bit too complicated. What would you say to them? And is there any unique value that somebody who lives with a mental illness can bring to an organization?
Kody GreenThe first thing I always mention is people with severe mental illness or just mental health issues, someone who's going through a difficult time and maybe struggling more than they usually do. In my experience and knowing as many advocates as I know, A lot of people with mental health issues or mental illness are so grateful to have an opportunity that I see them really succeed in their roles when they get those opportunities. I've worked with a lot of basically workforce development programs, placement programs, and I've seen people— it's unreal how excited someone can get when they've struggled and struggled and struggled to find a job, to get into a job. These are going to be some of the most engaged people you see, not just with their position, but whenever I was able to get a new job, I became so involved with the company and their mission. And in my opinion, I see people with mental illness doing that more than your average worker. There are studies out now by SHRM, the Society for Human Resource Management, that backs up some of this. They've done surveys asking HR.
Al ElliottYeah.
Kody GreenUm, about not only, uh, you know, there's— they've done several studies now about mental illness, second chances, and, uh, uh, people in recovery. And you see a lot of that. Um, people in HR are saying that they're, they're very driven and they're more willing to be engaged with the company and they are really fighting like toxic work environments. And so, uh, you're gonna have people that are just so grateful for the opportunity that they're really trying to make a difference. Uh, I also think that employers and HR, I, I know what unfortunately they want to hear about is the cost. And I think it's so important to remember that if you get someone, uh, who's a decent worker and they start struggling with mental health issues, or, uh, let's not forget that a lot of people have late onset mental illness diagnoses too. Like, uh, women sometimes don't get diagnosed with schizophrenia until their 30s.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Kody GreenThat was the case for my mom. So my mom was working 3 different jobs when she was diagnosed with schizophrenia. And so it's really important to remember that if you have people in those situations, um, we know, and this is, uh, pretty widely known, that it is cheaper to keep an employee and, and help them through something than to have to rehire new employees, especially if you have someone who has previously been effective in roles. They, they've understood the job. They've been engaged with the job.
Al ElliottYeah.
Kody GreenUh, and so it's, it's so important that we're finding resources for people instead of getting rid of them the minute they're an inconvenience, uh, because I think there is a cost to that that people aren't willing to acknowledge or address.
Al ElliottWell, that is a masterclass in creating a workplace that supports anyone with mental health issues.
Leanne ElliottIf you want to hear more from Kody, and of course you do, why wouldn't you? Here's where to find him.
Kody GreenThe best place to start if you're looking for information about me or my journey is my website. So that's kodigreen.com, Kody with a K. And on there, you'll be able to find out about my speaking and my book, Minds Over Meetings. You can also follow me on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, and my social media handle is Schizophrenic Hippie. And that's been my social media handle since 2018.
Al ElliottSo join us again next Thursday for a fabulous interview with the co-founder and CEO of GoHenry. This is a financial institution that's set up to teach kids and teens money skills for real life.
Leanne ElliottLouise Hill is a powerhouse, and after working with Sir Philip Green, she left to go and start GoHenry back in 2012 after she realized her kids had no real-life experience of how to manage money. Fast forward 12 years and she runs one of the world's largest companies that provides kids and teens with debit cards and has raised over $100 million in funding and has expanded to Europe and the US.
Al ElliottIf you've got kids who don't seem to understand that money doesn't grow on trees, or you want to learn more about GoHenry's Little Red Book of Culture— I actually saw it's on the video— or you just like a great founder story, then you cannot miss this next episode.
Leanne ElliottBut if you simply can't wait a whole week, then don't worry, you can join us next Tuesday for your weekly fix of workplace news, those spicy hot takes from our expert panel, and of course our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I answer your questions. Until then, make sure you've subscribed to the show on whatever platform You get your podcast, and if you really wanna support us, it'd be lovely if you could post on LinkedIn that you're enjoying the show. We enjoy making the show so much, so knowing that you enjoy it really does mean a lot to us. And thank you, I should, I did promise a name check actually, Al. A big thank you to Dr. Nina Thomas for posting about the show. She was stuck in a traffic jam. I'm stuck in these words. She was stuck in a traffic jam and was reflecting on our conversation around hybrid work, or one of the many ones that we have. About hybrid work. So thank you very much for sharing that. Very, very lovely for us because not only is it great that you enjoyed it, but you're also an absolute legend, leadership expert, and podcasting superstar. So thank you very much.
Al ElliottSo don't forget to check those show notes for all the links we talked about today. You're also going to see Leanne's email address. Feel free to send her questions. She personally answers every single one. And if you'd like your question to be read out and answered on the show, then just make sure you put something like workplace surgery somewhere in the In the subject line, and I'll make sure I put it to Leanne over the next few weeks. Leanne, any other business?
Leanne ElliottNope, that is it. We will see you next Tuesday.
Al ElliottSee you later. Bye-bye. Go follow Kody.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought— sorry.
Al ElliottPleasant. It's cold as Killing us, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottIt provides children and teens with debit cards. Sorry, debit cards. Weirdo.