Episode 80 · 29 February 2024 · 44:36
80: Why Cult-Like Workplaces Are On the Rise, with Petra Velzeboer
Featuring Petra Velzeboer
80: Why Cult-Like Workplaces Are On the Rise, with Petra Velzeboer
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Understanding cults: from extreme to insidious
interview#cults#workplace-culture#business
Petra's background: psychotherapy, youth mental health, and executive coaching
interview#psychotherapy#youth-mental-health#executive-coaching
Growing up in the Children of God / The Family International
Culty elements in startups and corporates: the WeWork effect
Red flags: us and them cultures in survival-mode times
interview#red-flags#us-and-them#survival-mode
The toxic side of resilience talk
Trust, hierarchy, and the stacking effect
interview#trust#hierarchy#workplace-culture
When leaders finally get it: amazing things happen
Remote work, autonomy, and isolation
interview#remote-work#autonomy#isolation
What a great workplace looks like and Petra's book Begin With You
interview#great-workplace#book#begin-with-you
Show notes
Why Cult-Like Workplaces Are On the Rise — with Petra Velzeboer
Guest: Petra Velzeboer — renowned mental health expert, psychotherapist, executive coach, and author of Begin With You.
What happens when the playbook for building "strong culture" starts looking a lot like the playbook for running a cult? Petra Velzeboer knows the difference better than most — because she grew up inside one.
Petra joins Al and Leanne to share her extraordinary story of being raised in the Children of God cult (later rebranded as The Family International), and how that experience gives her a uniquely sharp lens on modern workplace culture. They explore why charismatic leadership can inspire and manipulate in equal measure, the psychological tactics cult-like companies use to bind employees, and how "us and them" cultures creep in — especially in survival-mode economic times.
From red flags to recognise in your own organisation, to practical strategies for breaking free from toxic work environments, this is a conversation about identity, values, and the courage to choose differently.
Top 3 Takeaways
Cult-like cultures thrive on "us and them" thinking. When organisations frame the outside world as the enemy — other companies, other teams, even employees' own personal lives — it binds people together through fear and loyalty rather than purpose and trust.
Charismatic leadership is a double-edged sword. The same qualities that make a leader inspiring — confidence, vision, conviction — can tip into manipulation when followers are expected to revise their values to fit the group. Watch for leaders who demand loyalty over honesty.
You have more choice than you think. Petra's message is clear: even in the most controlling environments, you always have options. The first step is noticing the red flags — the second is believing you can leave.
More From Petra Velzeboer
- Website: petravelzeboer.com
- Book, Begin With You: available via her website and all major booksellers
- Instagram: @petra.velzeboer
- LinkedIn: uk.linkedin.com/in/petra-velzeboer
Mental Health Support
If you have been affected by any of the themes in this episode, or are currently struggling with your mental health, the following resources may be useful:
- Mind: mind.org.uk/information-support
- If you are feeling in distress or despair, including feelings of suicide, please consider calling the Samaritans for free on 116 123 (UK) or email jo@samaritans.org (Rest of World)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Petra VelzeboerPeople immediately think, and those that have extreme stories in them, we think violence, we think of mass suicides, we think, you know, these real extremes. And of course, in toxic relationships, we think of like, oh, if they're abusive or violent, obviously I would leave, right? And so we, you know, but it's the insidious stuff that keeps us in the middle. And I'm weirdly grateful that I got to an extreme because it woke me up to be like, oh, hell no, right? I have to live a different life. So instead, for me, I ended up spiraling in depression, anxiety. I mean, the whole nine yards, addiction. And ended up leaving because I fell pregnant with my son. So suddenly I was in London with my boyfriend who wasn't raised in that environment. And I guess the loneliest I've ever felt, you know, just thinking, oh my goodness, who am I? Like, what is my path in life? And really spiraled me out for a while to some pretty dark places, putting myself, my kids in danger before figuring a few things out.
Leanne ElliottHello. Hello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottHello. Hello. Welcome back. Welcome back. We're storming towards episode 100. We have someone kind of special in mind for episode 100. So if it comes off, we will tell you about it. If we— if it doesn't, Then we'll just pretend the person on 100 was our special person anyway.
Leanne ElliottYes. Speaking of special things, a special guest today for a very special date. Happy 29th of February, Al.
Al ElliottOh yeah, yeah. There's only— this is like once every 4 years, is it? I always feel sorry for people who have their birthday. I mean, what do they do on the 29th when they're born on the 29th?
Leanne ElliottYeah, you usually see like things on socials, don't you? They'll be like someone in their 30s and they'll be like, oh, I'm only 6 today, lol. Um, which is Bit weird. But I was also thinking, because I was thinking like every 4 years, I was like, when was the last leap year? I can't remember. It was 2020. If there was ever a year we didn't need an extra day, it was 2020.
Al ElliottAnyway, Lee, we've got a jam-packed session today. So what have we got going on?
Leanne ElliottYes, we have an amazing guest today. Petra Velzeboer is a renowned mental health expert. Her passion for creating psychologically safe spaces can be traced back to her unique background. Born into a notorious cult, Petra was raised in a strict environment where individuality and self-expression were discouraged. Traveling the globe, she learned firsthand about cultures and people but was sheltered from education books or friendships outside of the community. Raised to believe the world was going to end, she took her birthright as God's end-time soldier seriously. seriously, turning a blind eye to cruel and unusual punishments, abuse, and the fact that the world never did actually, in fact, end. Following a series of life-altering events, she was determined to pursue a career as a psychotherapist so she could help others. Today, she is not only a qualified psychotherapist and renowned mental health expert, she's a TEDx speaker, an author, and CEO of mental health consultancy PVL. Let's meet Petra.
Petra VelzeboerMy background is psychotherapy. It's youth mental health. I'm an executive coach. I run my own mental health consultancy now, so we do training and development. And as you saw, I've got a book out and have been doing keynotes and kind of highlighting the conversation around wellbeing and mental health at work specifically. But really, I think how we need to think about this topic of culture and workplace really differently.
Al ElliottSo we're going to chat quite a lot about the similarities between cults and workplace culture. So let's just find out how growing up in a cult has made Petra an expert in the workplace.
Petra VelzeboerI think for many of us in the mental health space, the topic is deeply personal, right? It all starts with kind of our personal journeys of figuring out, well, how do we exist in the world? Who are we? What are our values and our purpose and those sorts of high-level kind of concepts? For me, as you know, and as I outline in the book, I was born and raised in a religious cult. My parents were in— we were in communes. We didn't go to school as kids. We thought the world was going to end. And while at one point I was thinking, oh, this is all bad and I've got to kind of escape my past, I've since realized there was a real mix of kind of the good bits, the community, the belonging, the shared mission, which is what I see as the benefits in the workplace if we were to connect those dots a little bit. But then the dark side, right? So that toxicity, I guess, power plays, you know, kids and vulnerable people being impacted in, in a pretty dark way. And so for me as a teenager, remember, I grew up, didn't go to school, and thought the world was going to end. So you don't exactly make future plans for like, who do I want to be when I grow up, right? So instead, for me, I ended up spiraling in depression, anxiety, I mean, the whole 9 yards, addiction, and ended up leaving because I fell pregnant with, with my son. So, so suddenly I was in London with my boyfriend who didn't— wasn't raised in that environment. And I guess the loneliest I've ever felt, you know, just thinking, oh my goodness, who am I? Like, what is my path in life? And really spiraled me out for a while to some pretty dark places, putting myself, my kids in danger before figuring a few things out. So I guess the short version is I had to learn how to manage and take responsibility, I guess, for my own mental health. And then through my career, kind of noticing which environments allowed me to thrive and which environments were, were less good for my mental health and actually would be really risky for somebody from, from my past.
Leanne ElliottMany organizations I've worked with, interacted with, or even just seen on social will describe their workplace culture as a family. And it's a hopelessly flawed analogy for a variety of reasons. You don't choose your family. you do choose your team. You don't pay your family to stick around, and likewise, you don't lay off your children when you have a drop in income. There are so many reasons, and I could go on, or I would encourage you to check out a recent post on Truth, Lies, and Workplace Culture on LinkedIn where we had some really great insights, including from John Amici.
Petra VelzeboerMhm.
Leanne ElliottUm, and from our recent guest, Sophie Interestingly, the cult that Petra grew up in also described themselves as a family, so I had to get Petra's take on this. Why is it so bad to describe your workplace culture as a family?
Petra VelzeboerSo the cult that I grew up in was, was started out as the Children of God and got rebranded as the Family International. So certainly that, that kind of behavior, you know, in, in the branding, I guess, to make people feel like, you know, we're in this together, it has so many connotations, right? But of course, a family, no matter how toxic, generally you're always family. They say you don't choose your family, right? So the connotation around, you know, we've got your back, and it goes deeper into sacrifice for the family, hold secrets for the family, you know, that sort of thing. But then the tricky thing is there's suddenly a restructure, redundancies, a financial reason, probably a very logical, rational reason. And hey, you axe some of your family, right? So it's kind of a false dichotomy, I guess, for individuals to be like, of course I do anything for my family, right? But yet at the end of the day, it's still a business that will have changes and restructures, and there may be a fit that works at one point but not at the next phase, right? And I know there's toxic families out there. I've certainly got some threads in my own. But, but that, that it's really culty, I guess, is what I see based on my experience, because it's like when we're winning, the collective, the family takes credit. When, when you feel burnt out or depressed or anxious, that's on you, right? So suddenly it's not a we anymore. Like, actually, what's the system and environment that may be impacting your depression, anxiety, burnout? But actually, Maybe take some time off, or we don't need you anymore. You can't cut it, right? You weren't— you're not the right makeup or resilience for this industry. These are the phrases, you know. So do you see that, just the disconnect between that messaging, right? And trust me, when I started my business, you know, I was kind of going for that belonging, right? And so I was like, well, if we all know each other really deeply, then nothing will go wrong. And so I've had to learn myself about like Oh, actually, sometimes I have to remember that it's my business and I'm allowed to change it, you know? And as long as I'm transparent and open about that, you know, then that's the best way that you can go about these things, right? But it's a tricky learning process for all of us, I think.
Al ElliottNow, I recently watched the WeWork documentary on Apple TV, and it definitely had some culty elements to it. Careful with that word, Al. Some culty elements to it, and also the other type of element as well, if you know the guy. So we asked Petra, whether she sees culty signs in organizations that she works with.
Petra VelzeboerOh, all the time. Literally all the time. And across industries as well. So right through from startups. I mean, if we just think of an early-stage business, right? And I don't know if you saw the WeWork documentary, right? About, right? So that kind of charismatic leader, mission, vision, and that notion of sacrifice now for rewards later. You know, you're paid shit, but you've got some equity, but, and believe in the dream. And I'm all for the dream. I have one as well, right? What happens is the bigger you get, you now get this layer of middle management. I mean, they say when it comes to tribe and belonging, I believe that the numbers are like 800 people, you can still make that work. Like from a belonging, like everybody can still pretty much know who everyone is. There's not this kind of distant leader you've never met who is like, you know, meting out the standards for what you should do, right? So they say that's the kind of number. And a bigger company, if they have regions that kind of hold that kind of number, you know, and are self-organizing and are able to have a bit of autonomy within those structures, that often can work. But what we often see is that the hierarchy gets set. We now have policies, we now have procedures, we now have red tape. Over time, if we see certain sectors, it's like the public sector. It's just the way we've always done it. Why do we have 18 layers of sign-off for this one thing? So these are the kind of, we just question nothing, just show up. And it dumbs people down in a way because they're like, question nothing, just do my job. And so, I mean, I see this in small ways and I see this in big ways and it takes real innovation, leadership, psychological safety, to continue to have these kind of checks and balances, even for the people at the top. If they're surrounded by yes people, that's a danger zone, right? And while yes, we're pushing for profits and business growth, it's the people that help you do that. And I get that it's tough and it's a balance. But yeah, unfortunately, I see these culty kind of practices all the time. And the evidence is in people's mental health and the mental health crisis, so to speak, right? That, that's the evidence that there's something that needs to change, not just on an awareness, let's have a conversation, but on a systemic working practices level.
Leanne ElliottSo Petra has identified a few red flags there. What other red flags does she see in organizations that suggest they might have an issue with culture?
Petra VelzeboerSo I think it becomes an us and them culture. which I'm seeing a lot of in these kind of survival kind of times, right? So we've got the kind of behind closed doors leaders who make the decisions that affect other people. And I know that might sound just like business, right? But it's how do you communicate those messages to your people to help bring them along and even the tough messages to help them understand what's going on? The second one that I mentioned already is that kind of collective wins, but blaming when there's some, or worse, like I remember working in a place where I left after 3 months because I knew it would be terrible for my mental health and that the building up afterwards was the cost of like having no salary for a little while. That risk was less great than being there for a while and having to boost my confidence up. And I remember resigning. So I told my manager, I was like, I can't do this in a very diplomatic way. And from that moment forward, no leader would give me eye contact. The CEO blanked me. And avoided me at all costs until I worked my notice and left. Like, right? And so I thought I was part of your collective vision and dream and mission, right? But, you know, it's almost like a toxic parent, right? So, so if you believe the same way, then you get all the love and the belonging and the joy. But as soon as you have what we would call doubts, and there's many words that, that could, could capture that, right? You are now other and you're ostracized and you must fend for yourself. So no wonder we have millions and millions and millions of people, and I hear them all the time from a coaching mental health perspective, who say, but I've got a great salary, but I've got a family to look after. But like all the things that on the face of it sound super logical and rational, but at what cost? At what cost to your soul, to your vibrancy, to your physical health, to your mental health, right? And so people are very much going to these extremes of I'm either in this toxic environment, but I get the salary, the security, blah, blah, blah, or I'm happy, but I'm poor. These are the extremes that people kind of go, but I don't know if I want that. And my challenge— and that's very black and white survival, even culty thinking, right and wrong, right? My challenge to people is always, what's in the middle? There's a million things that are in the middle.
Al ElliottYeah.
Petra Velzeboerof those 2 extremes, right? So when it becomes these extremes and you feel like you're revising your values and telling yourself that, oh, in order to survive, I must give up parts of my soul, and you may not phrase it that way, but that's essentially what it is, red flags, right? And just question. It doesn't have to be, again, an extreme like quit your job, but it might be conscious thinking, getting some coaching, enabling you to to view the bits in the middle and what are kind of your options.
Al ElliottNow, I know we've gone on about mental health a lot recently, but it really is so important. Bruce said a few weeks ago that running resilience training can often be a way to move the problem from the leaders to the employees, which is not a good thing. Petra agrees and goes on to explain what she really thinks when we talk about a healthy organization.
Petra VelzeboerResilience is a tricky one because, as we know, And this is the toxic bit, right? Like we restructure an entire business and then say, can you do a resilience workshop just to boost people up so they can take more, right? Take more heaviness. I mean, it's about mindset. It's understanding that wellbeing is intrinsic to performance. It's aligning people with values and purpose. And that's a little bit dead in some places. Like, oh, we had this thing on our wall or on our intranet, right?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Petra VelzeboerBut where do your personal values align with the company values, right? Or the purpose, you know, so some of that piece. And what's the— and helping people feel excited about creating a culture that they want. And not everybody wants to have deep mental health chats at work. That's fine too, right? But it's just kind of broadening the scope of— I mean, positive psychology is all about Optimism and the idea that we can create something different. We need a lot more of that in the world of news that is just everything is kind of highlighting the negatives. And what I see is people in cultures, employees spending their spare time in pockets complaining about how bad the world is, how bad life is, and perhaps even how bad their workplace is.
Al ElliottRight.
Petra VelzeboerBut you're part of the problem then. Right. And so either— I just think we have more choice than we think we do. And so a question at the end of a team meeting that we would do is, how are you investing in yourself today? Right. So it's like an uplifting, empowered question rather than like, you know, even just like check in with each other. And it's that little voice of, hey, how are you? You know, let's all talk. Yeah. I just think 80/20 rule. I want 80% to be going in that direction. And of course, 20% about the struggle, but nobody does anything about it. We ignore it. It's like, that's what people are saying. They're like, okay, how do we boost resilience, help them manage their stress? And you're like, they don't have time to come to a stupid webinar. We do webinars. They're not all stupid, but you know what I mean? I don't have time. Like, I got shit to do. And so let's talk about the system and how the world of work needs to change and evolve to match the technology, hybrid, all the things that are going on. We've got to evolve alongside that. But do you see how that's making it a you problem? That's the culty thread of like, oh, you need to manage your time better rather than all of these other kind of restructures change. Like, we know that talent retention is an issue. So people who, who's doing the work? The people who are left. We can't recruit fast enough in many industries to match our workload, right? Time management. Are you kidding me? This person's burnt out most likely because of, you know, picking up all the pieces. For people that aren't there. So I think we're all responsible for mental health. So I think a mentally healthy organization has individual responsibility and organizational. So we need both sides. However, we also need a reframe, I think, on how we're kind of the conversation we're having about mental health at work, because still so often, and I believe it perpetuates stigma in a way, when we talk about mental health, we bring out the awareness days and we think about poor mental health. So we have the stories of kind of suicide awareness.
Al ElliottYeah.
Petra VelzeboerOr bipolar disorder, you know, the kind of illnesses. And not enough people are talking about what does good mental health look like? How do— what is a— what are we even striving for? Like, what is a healthy culture where individuals can have space to invest in their own well-being and really understanding that healthy people make business thrive long-term, right? So we're seeing a lot of the burnout conversation going on and That's on both sides. So people in a hybrid world needing to relearn or learn for the first time how to have personal boundaries and take the time to invest in themselves. But we need the leaders to not only model behaviors, but create space for discussion, not just about what we do, because we're good at that. What's our agenda? What are our business goals? But how we do them. So what are our working practices? How do we evolve together collaboratively? Because any leader who says this is exactly the policy that is going to work for us, we're making it up as we go along. So these policies popping up of like, we must be in for 2 days or 3 days or whatever that is, it's arbitrary. And I want to see more kind of collective responsibility when it comes to, well, how do we work best? And everybody's different. So what's the conversation of trust that we need to have there?
Leanne ElliottOne of the signs of an amazing workplace culture Is that there is trust between leadership and the teams they lead. Quite simple, actually. So, why do most leaders struggle to trust their employees?
Petra VelzeboerWell, there's a stacking effect, right? Most businesses have a hierarchy, and so we've got middle management. Do they feel trusted by the people above them, right? And it sort of stacks as far as like who's trusting who, right? So, somebody in the middle, if they don't feel trusted by their superior, They're gonna model that behavior and be micromanagee of their people, right? We also know that when it comes to psychological safety, there can be one business, but pockets of the business that feel psychologically safe and others that don't. So whether that's departmental or whether that's a manager or leader, right, showing those behaviors. And I think as a therapist, of course, that's very deeply threaded to somebody's story, right?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Petra VelzeboerLike around authority, around were they trusted as a child? Did they transition from childhood to adolescence to adulthood with the appropriate amounts of trust, give, take, and safety, right? So, so the stuff runs deep, right? And so trust is also about just people at any level of the business saying, this is what I need to do good work, having those brave conversations. And then it's a process, right? Just like a relationship. You start off with like honeymoon period and we're going to change the world, right? And then over time you're invested, right? And so we start questioning people and we get those little pockets of complaining and fight or flight behavior. So that survival behavior that's suddenly a bit more paranoid or a bit questioning, and it's in the shadows. And so this is where it becomes culturally toxic.
Al ElliottYeah.
Petra VelzeboerRight? And so the more we can open up those conversations and also get to know each other as people— when I know that, you know, you're struggling with this thing in your personal life, or it's hard to sleep right now because you're worried about a parent in hospital, or because, you know, these sort— this sort of context, knowing the human, then it's easier to kind of have that give and take and know that we're all on the same side trying to do great work. But life is going to happen, and that's what the mental health conversation is. It's like life happening And how do we cope individually and collectively? It's really difficult to have hard conversations and be vulnerable about things. And, you know, I've fallen in the trap myself where, you know, in order to protect feelings, or I didn't feel brave enough in the moment to have the full conversation, or I felt bad about, you know, needing to let someone go, or, you know, I've just— oh, it ate me up, right? And so we hide, don't we, from those difficult conversations? And it's in the hiding that misunderstanding, miscommunication, And that feeling of being ostracized occurs, even if that wasn't our intention. And equally, what is modeled to us? So I remember getting advice from HR, and that's their job, right? So HR's job is to protect the business when it comes to redundancies and change, right? And so HR's advice is, oh, don't have any conversations. Anything can be misconstrued. Be careful. Like, take a step back. And that's, you know, that's the advice that businesses get. What it does is it completely erodes the option for human conversation, right? And that doesn't mean you have to say anything that's incriminating, but it is like, we can show emotion. I think I cried when I let somebody go a couple months back because I was like, this hurts me. And it was genuine. I was just like, you know, it's tough to get it right. I mean, the book I would recommend beyond mine, of course, is Radical Candor, which you may have read, but it just gives that real insight in how it's kind to be clear, right? And so, yes, of course, we need HR advice, and there's so much complexity around it. But please, please, please, where you can, have a human conversation with an individual, you know, about them and their lives, and listen, just listen, even if it's hard to hear. But I get that it's a work in progress, and human beings are often walking triggers. So if we lack self-awareness, right, we might shy away from things, we might be aggressive, we might behave in certain ways that we're less proud of. But if we don't know where that's coming from, it's just going to keep rolling around in patterns, right? And so for me, self-awareness, doing the work, and creating open spaces for, for these kind of conversations is crucial.
Al ElliottAnd when leaders finally get it, amazing things happen.
Petra VelzeboerI literally heard about one yesterday, and I don't have permission yet to share them as a company. So, I'll just kind of talk you through what happened because we internally were so impressed with this company. So, they're working with us, working with us on strategy. And so, we've worked with so many different companies globally, and we kind of know what the tick box looks like. Like, oh, go talk to that kind of junior wellbeing lead and work with them and do some magical stuff over on this side of the business rather than systemically thinking about the whole piece. And what we're really impressed with, and we will put this on LinkedIn as soon as we have permission, the MD is in all of our meetings, right? When it comes to strategy and leadership training. And so we've got really senior— never in my life have I been at Such 100% of the exec level are open and talking about this topic. I mean, white males, right? We were impressed. We were like, okay, we don't actually have to persuade anyone that this is a good idea. They're just saying, can you bring the expertise on how to? And so one of the themes that was coming out of this training, which the senior person was in on, was around working practices and some survey results where people kept talking about workload. Being part of the challenge. Most companies, they ignore that word. So they're like, yeah, of course it's workload, but there's nothing we can do about it, right? It's just like, it's just the way it is. Let's have an awareness day. We see this all the time. And this particular senior member of staff said, wait, let's stop, right? And he said, workload, how do we think about the workload if that is affecting so many people's mental health? And so they're not perfect. They haven't got it all right. They're working with us, right? But the fact that that senior person was able to notice that and be able to create space for that conversation, which is what people are telling him, you know, for us, that's pretty profound in this day and age.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both We actually have a lot in common.
Al ElliottWe both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Petra VelzeboerUh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work.
Al ElliottAnd we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. So of course you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Petra VelzeboerI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Petra VelzeboerSo come back.
Leanne ElliottNo chat about culture is complete without talking about remote working. As we've said for years, remote work is a modifier of culture. In other words, if you have a great culture, then adding or improving remote work will make it better. And if you have a bad culture, then remote work is going to make it even worse.
Al ElliottNo, I think it's the same with money. If you're a decent person and you make some money, then it magnifies your decentness. But if you're a dick and you make some money, then you just become an uber dick. Here's Petra's take on remote work.
Petra VelzeboerSo in a nutshell, autonomy and knowing that people are different is the way forward. But I realize that's quite high level. My team are fully remote. And so anyone who says you can't build culture remotely, I would say is wrong. I would challenge that. I think the approach needs to be more explicit and more trusting and more autonomous. There is no way in hell that I would ever put software on my team's computers to track their hours. Horrific. I can't think of anything worse than doing things in that way. And of course, it's kind of the norm, like, oh, we assume that people aren't working as hard, therefore we must track them in that way. I don't like it personally. I think you do need to have space and conversations for how we work, not just what we do. So we, we have total flex. We've talked about things like the 4-day work week or like different structures, and none of them quite stuck. And what we really appreciate is actually 100% flex, which means if you want to drop your kids off, if you want to go to yoga, as long as you are responsible for the outcomes of your project and the work that you're doing, And I can trust you to communicate to your team if there's a struggle, if you need backup, right? I mean, we're adults, right? Then it enables things to work. But you need that bit at the beginning to kind of set that up effectively. So these policies of like, you must come in these days in the week, I think is building resentment in certain kind of groups within the business. I do think if you do have an office, Of course, in-person fosters belonging, but make it intentional. So how many people are like, I'm in on a Thursday, but there's nobody in, and I'm just on Teams calls all day? What, like, what's the point of that? That gives me, you know, but you had to commute, you had to do all these things, but you're just here anyway. What's the point, right? So I like crossover days where, like, let's all come in Tuesday and Wednesday. We're gonna have a team lunch, or we're gonna have a debrief. That's when our team meeting is, like. Structure it so that those days are purposeful to enhance belonging, not just like everyone must come in, right? It doesn't make sense to me. So I'd say hold in mind formal and informal ways of connection, I guess. And the informal is going a little bit beyond, how was your weekend? Great. We go, how was your weekend? But let's go beyond that. Let's do things like call someone on the phone, right? Just wanted to check in on how your day's going, or Um, I was curious, like, what's the toughest thing about your job at the moment? Like, um, explicit, um, curious questions help the person on the other end feel valued, feel listened to, and like you actually have a minute, right? And that you give a shit.
Leanne ElliottI think a lot of people like the idea of working anywhere in the world, but there is a risk of feeling isolated. I asked Petra, is isolation inevitable with remote teams?
Petra VelzeboerI mean, it's a valid argument. It's absolutely a valid argument. And we know that isolation and loneliness are negatives for mental health. We know that many people off the back of the pandemic have lost the skill, I guess, to randomly socialize or to chat to people or to kind of take responsibility for their community engagement themselves. And so everybody is different. I am an extrovert. If I sit in this spot all week, my poor boyfriend, because I lose my mind a little bit, even though we're connecting as a team. So I make sure that I work my schedule to have in-person meetings, to make sure there's some in-person stuff. Like, I take responsibility for managing my schedule in that way. My head of strategy, introvert, she loves being working from home. Like, it's her best happy place ever. Like, she's like, what? Integrate with people? No, thank you. You know, And that's genuinely the case. Of course, she does training. She does things where she will integrate with people. But what I'm saying is people are different. They have different needs. Some people want to be around people, which is me. Some people don't need that as much, right? And that's okay. But again, we know each other so well, right? So if something is going kind of awry for our mental health, we'll kind of say, hey, what's in your control? When it comes to your mental health, and how can we help? So that has this collaborative conversation. So I want people to normalize conversations about loneliness, isolation, and have some education about what that does do to your mental health, because of course there's an effect. I mean, our worlds have become a 1-mile radius, right? You can order in, you can just Netflix, you move from your desk to your sofa, right? That's not good for you. I mean, movement is the single best way to prevent burnout, right? And so we're living in a real sedentary world. I would also be more explicit about, you know, on camera, off camera. Like, if people are disengaged, maybe make your meetings more engaging, right? Just saying, right? Because if it's like you just parroting on like some agenda items and it becomes the norm to be off camera, and why wouldn't you? Because, you know, Then that becomes your norm. So questioning those norms, asking if people— if it's good for people's mental health, really listening and asking the right questions on surveys. I've seen some awful surveys and I'm like, what are you going to do with that information? It's like non-information, but you've gathered something very old school now to have like, oh, we have a stress question. How stressed are you? It's not information that's very useful because some stress is good. Sometimes it depends what— when you, when you ask the question. Just because you're stressed doesn't mean you're burnt out or in poor mental health, right? So, so I, I just think we've got to be more nuanced than those types of questions. People sometimes ask wellbeing, mental health questions. But if they're in an industry or a demographic that doesn't really have the language around mental health or wellbeing, they don't really know what you're asking either, right? Questions around trust, like real specific, like, do you feel you can go to your manager if you were struggling? Things like that, right? Do you know where to go for support? So that thing about resources, like, great, you have them. Does anybody know where they are, right? And a thing about safety, like, do you feel comfortable talking about things, right? Like, these give you kind of clues. And I guess the principle is What can we as wellbeing leads do with this information as a loop? The answer to a question should give you information for your wellbeing strategy and plan.
Al ElliottSo what does a great workplace actually look like? What issues affect the culture in a workplace?
Petra VelzeboerI want to just say honesty, but that's not an issue, but that's like safe spaces to openly talk And listen without being judged. And that it's not all about actions, right? So we get these well-intentioned people coming together like, oh my God, we should do all these things. And over time, they come to these events and have more agenda items and more tasks that just overload that workload piece, right? And they're like, oh, does anyone even get it? Right? So morale dips. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottRight?
Petra VelzeboerAnd so I want those groups to have so much fire and model the behaviors. I don't care if you have any actions. If you come together and you talk about mental health, not just from a negative— 20%, that's fine— 80% about how do you invest in yourself, right? How do you collectively invest in yourself as a team? How do you motivate? You know, like the uplifting end of mental health.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Petra VelzeboerLike, if that team is so inspired when they meet once a month, that fire is going to ripple out automatically, whether you have a strategy or not.
Leanne ElliottPetra grew up in a cult and believed the world would end, and then she left and had a son at 22. So I wanted to know what her life looks like now.
Petra VelzeboerWell, it's been quite a year for me, uh, just putting the book out. I mean, that's been a dream for me for, for Probably since I was 13 and first kind of smuggled contraband books from the library in order to, I guess, open up my mind to other things. So for me, books are still that pathway of learning. So I'm really excited that that's happened this year and sort of the conversations I'm having off the back of it. I'm actually launching a podcast in a couple of weeks, so called Disrupting Wellbeing. So going deeper on some of these conversations as well. So I'm excited about that. And then, like, personally, I've got 2 teenagers now. So my son's off to uni, my daughter's finishing A-levels, and it feels, you know, I had them young and you'll see in the story, just, I guess my purpose was very much, I'm realizing now as I see them kind of moving on in their lives, my purpose has been very linked to breaking trauma cycles and giving them better options. And so as they move away and the book, The Bucket List, like some things have happened, I'm in moments of reflection kind of going, oh. Like, what's my drive connected to now? Right? And it's of course connected to impact and helping people understand that they too can get out of a victim mindset and take responsibility for their own mental health. But it's a time of transition and I'm excited about it. I feel grateful, but also reflecting on like, ooh, what next? So watch this space, I guess.
Al ElliottWhat an amazing story and an amazing woman. know you're going to want to find out more about her. So here's where to go.
Petra VelzeboerOf course. So my website's just my name, so petravelzeboer.com. You can see our training and corporate support, but also keynotes. And then LinkedIn is my kind of really active place where I respond to all DMs and put loads of content out about workplace culture. So follow me there.
Leanne ElliottSo that is the amazing Petra Velzeboer. Seriously worth following her on all the socials. And do check out her new podcast that she has with the awesome Stella Smith, who's also been on the show. Uh, perks again, we mentioned last week, we really need to get paid for this.
Petra VelzeboerWe do.
Al ElliottSend us a check, Stella.
Leanne ElliottUm, I would also really highly recommend Petra's book, Begin With You. She draws upon her personal experiences of trauma, of hardship, of life in a cult, and offers insights on how you can overcome difficult periods and develop a positive outlook. It really is a great read and one of those books that brilliantly weaves in more personal memoir stories as well. So definitely worth checking out. So just before we go, we have time for some parting words of wisdom from Petra.
Petra VelzeboerI think it's just that, that message to people, like, if they are struggling themselves, whether it's going— because, because this is the thing, and you see that Netflix documentary, How to Be a Cult Leader, People immediately think, and those that have extreme stories in them, we think violence, we think of mass suicides, we think these real extremes. And of course, in toxic relationships, we think of like, oh, if they're abusive or violent, obviously I would leave. Right. And so we, but it's the insidious stuff that keeps us in the middle. And I'm weirdly grateful that I got to an extreme because it woke me up to be like, Oh, hell no. Right. I have to live a different life. But the struggle I see for so many is this middle bit of like, oh, I've got to pay my mortgage and I've got to just be in this middle bit, slowly killing their souls. And I say that because that connects to our physical health and our mental health. So for those people that are like, I should just be grateful. I have— and the gratitude's an interesting one, but we could go into that. I'm all about gratitude and focusing on that intention. But when it becomes like this strange excuse for like not doing the things, and the reason you'll know it's an excuse is if you are languishing in depression, anxiety, addiction, low-level kind of stress or relationship issues, you know, that bit. There's another way. There's just another way. And of course, my book kind of outlines some of this, but like challenge your thinking. Ask yourself, If fear didn't exist, how would I live my life? Right? There's a clue there, right? If guilt didn't exist, how would I be showing up? Right? Those 2 questions can radically alter the trajectory of your life. So there's more that's in our control than we think. And people are like, oh, the mental health crisis. This is just— it's just the world that we live in. And we all kind of talk about that, right? Instead of challenging each other and surrounding ourselves with people who who will challenge our behaviors. Hey, what's one thing you can do to shift things? And there's so many things we can do. And I just, I guess I want people to know that.
Leanne ElliottFun fact, we first met Petra at the Water Cooler event last year, and the Water Cooler is coming up again at the 23rd and 24th of April, 2024 at the Excel in London. I believe Petra is going to be there again as a keynote speaker alongside many other extraordinary speakers. Many of which have been on the podcast. Go and get your tickets now. It's a completely free event. It's over 2 days. It is extraordinary. The speakers, the panels, the exhibition— you do not want to miss it. And fingers crossed, Simon, if you're listening, you'll see us there.
Al ElliottSo thank you so much for joining us for yet another episode. We're really interested in your feedback, so as always, jump on LinkedIn, search for Truth, Lies and Work. You'll find There's a group there, or a page that Leanne set up that she'll— we basically post on, she'll chat, you can ask your questions, etc., etc. Also look out for something exciting coming in the next couple of weeks. Not going to say any more. Talking of exciting things, guess who we've got on the pod next week, Lee?
Leanne ElliottI don't know who we've got on next week. You change every week.
Al ElliottIt is Lord Sir Amazing John Amici.
Leanne ElliottNo, is it John's turn next week?
Al ElliottIt's John's turn next week. You have—
Leanne Elliottso good.
Al ElliottJohn White— I mean, John's Leanne's hero, and, um, I've listened to the episode, to the interview, and it is just, it's just brilliant. He's just so succinct, he's cool, he's just brilliant. So you're gonna absolutely love it. So if you haven't subscribed yet, and we're not going to say it this week, but if you haven't subscribed yet, well, now is the time, friends. Now would be a really good time. And if you are watching on YouTube, click subscribe there too, because you'll probably see that we are going up slowly. I We've got now about 35 subscribers, which is not bad considering that we had about 20 2 weeks ago. So we are slowly getting there, but it would definitely help us on YouTube if you could get us—
Petra VelzeboerYeah.
Al ElliottSubscribe and like the video.
Leanne ElliottYes. And go and tell 5,000 of your closest family and friends as well.
Al ElliottRight. Well, have a phenomenal weekend and we will see you next week with the amazing John Amici.
Petra VelzeboerBye.
Al ElliottBye-bye.
Leanne ElliottNice.
Al ElliottDo you want to take it from the top then? Do you want a little glass sip of water or something?
Leanne ElliottI've got some, I've got some. All right, bossy.
Al ElliottIf you're, if you're watching this in the outtakes, then you, you decide whether my lovely offer of, would you like a little bit of water, darling wife, was bossy or not.
Leanne ElliottSomeone was saying to me that the recent bout of COVID would like ends in a 100-day cough. Oh, it just doesn't go away.
Al ElliottHorrible.
Leanne ElliottCulty. That is dangerous though.
Al ElliottVery dangerous.