Episode 154 · 17 December 2024 · 54:29

Why Talking to Yourself Works and Leaders Need Favourites PLUS Dr Enya Doyle's Hot Take on harassment - This Week in Work, 17th December 2024

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The power of talking to yourself
news roundup#self-talk #christmas
Should bosses have favourites?
news roundup#favouritism #management #leadership
Why young professionals are leaving the UK
news roundup#young-professionals #uk #talent-retention
Hot Take: Dr Enya Doyle on retiring 'inappropriate'
hot take#workplace-language #inappropriate #expert-advice
Workplace Surgery: middle management burnout
workplace surgery#middle-management #burnout #workplace-stress
Workplace Surgery: team division post-restructure
workplace surgery#team-dynamics #restructuring #software-company
Workplace Surgery: wellbeing on a budget
workplace surgery#wellbeing #budget #employee-support

Show notes

Why Talking to Yourself Works and Leaders Need Favourites PLUS Dr Enya Doyle's Hot Take on Harassment

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the science-backed power of talking to yourself, why Airbnb's Brian Chesky thinks bosses should have favourites, and the UK's young professional exodus. Plus, Dr Enya Doyle's hot take on retiring the word "inappropriate" when talking about harassment, and Leanne's advice on middle management burnout, team division post-restructure, and wellbeing on a budget.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. The power of talking to yourself Research featured in Time magazine shows that talking out loud to yourself can reduce stress and improve focus. Whether you're hunting for lost items or navigating festive chaos, self-talk is a science-backed way to stay calm and productive — and Al's been doing it for years. Source →

2. Should bosses have favourites? Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky believes good leaders should pick favourites based on fair criteria to build great teams. But does favouritism boost morale, or does it alienate everyone else? Leanne's not sure "favourite" is the right word for what he's describing. Source →

3. Why young professionals are leaving the UK Revolut co-founder Vlad Yatsenko discusses the exodus of young professionals to Southern Europe. With better weather, lower taxes, and remote work flexibility, countries like Portugal and Italy are emerging as prime destinations for ambitious workers — and Al's got thoughts on who's really to blame. Source →

🔥 Hot Take of the Week: Dr Enya Doyle

Dr Enya Doyle, anti-harassment consultant, argues that the term "inappropriate" should be retired when discussing sexual harassment and violence. Her suggestion? Use stronger language like "unlawful" or "intolerable" to better reflect the seriousness of these behaviours. Dr Doyle also emphasises the importance of proactive strategies, accountability, and long-term cultural shifts to combat workplace harassment.

Al and Leanne dig into why the language we use matters, why "inappropriate" softens the severity of harm, and who else needs to be put under the accountability microscope.

More from Dr Enya Doyle:

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

Middle management burnout: "I'm a manager struggling with unclear direction, constant fire-fighting, and I'm losing my passion for the role." Leanne shares strategies to address the unique challenges of middle management — including the "hide the wires" approach.
Team division post-restructure: "Our newly merged team is facing tension between legacy and transformation groups." Leanne offers advice on rebuilding trust and collaboration to prevent an "us vs. them" dynamic — including the power of task cohesion.
Wellbeing on a budget: "I want to prioritise team wellbeing but I have limited resources." Leanne provides practical tips for creating impactful initiatives without breaking the bank.

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

🎧 Next Week's Teaser

We're taking a break from This Week in Work over Christmas — but don't worry! We're bringing you a series of full, unedited interviews with workplace culture legends, including a 2-hour conversation with Rory Sutherland (Vice Chair of Ogilvy) and our annual predictions episode featuring insights from top industry leaders.

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.

Al ElliottWelcome, and especially a big welcome if you're a brand new listener. If you care about the culture of your organisation, then you're in the right place and you've chosen a really cool episode, I think, to join us on. If you've listened before, then welcome back. You know exactly what's going on here. Every single Thursday, We bring you a brand new interview with an expert guest who knows how to create workplace cultures. But because it's Tuesday, we bring you Tuesday episode, which is a weekly fix of workplace news, spicy hot takes from our expert panel, and of course, our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to the lovely Leanne. We're married, by the way, just in case if you knew you didn't know that.

Leanne ElliottFun fact.

Al ElliottYeah, yeah, fun fact.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I do answer your questions. So if you have a question about work, then I would love to help you with it. You can check out the show notes to find out how to get in touch. Right now though, it's my favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup. Al, cue the Christmassy jingle.

Al ElliottI haven't yet, I haven't yet done the Christmassy bit yet, so I'm not sure that I can do that. But yes, there will be a jingle playing. Leanne, what have you seen this week?

Leanne ElliottWell, talking about Christmas, I love Christmas.

Al ElliottYou do.

Leanne ElliottI do really like Christmas, but equally, let's not pretend that it's not stressful. Um, having fun, as it turns out, is really hard, especially if you're like us and you have to fit in all the family and all the friends and all the food. So with that in mind, an article in Time magazine caught my eye this week as it suggested a science back solution to managing your stress, and the solution is talking to yourself.

Al ElliottI do that all the time, have done for years. You have.

Leanne ElliottI think, I think you'll get this entirely, Al. Um, unsurprisingly to Al, it turns out talking to yourself out loud isn't just normal, it's really, really beneficial. Researchers have studied why we engage in self-talk and have found that for many, it's a natural response to being alone or navigating a stressful situation. So they say, think about those moments when you've muttered, where's put my keys? Or it's, oh, where's my phone? It's usually doing the phone dance. Um, or maybe—

Al ElliottWhere's my hand in German? Yeah.

Leanne ElliottOr maybe you're reassuring yourself, um, in a moment that you've got this, you know, I've got this, it's fine. Um, it is a way of processing thoughts, easing anxiety, and staying focused. And interestingly, this habit seems to span all ages. So parents out there might have noticed that their children often talk themselves through tasks they learn, and older adults frequently use self-talk without worrying about what other people think. Actually, um, it's in the middle years when social inhibition seems to peak and that people tend to hold back. The science behind self-talk is really interesting. Dr. Gary Lupyan of the University of Wisconsin-Madison conducted research showing that talking to yourself can sharpen your focus and improve task performance. So in his study, participants searching for objects found them more quickly when they said the object's name out loud. So if you are hunting for that roll of tape while you're wrapping presents, chanting tape, tape, tape might actually help. Um, beyond finding things, self-talk can also act as a motivator. So athletes use this to boost performance, and you can apply the same principle to get through all the festive chaos with things like one step Um, therapists like Gabrielle Morse also recommended in the article self-talk can be a tool for managing anxiety. She suggests speaking to yourself as if you were your own coach or supportive friend can be helpful. So simple phrases like, it's okay to feel stressed, this won't last forever, or I have what I need to get through this. I love that.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottUh, can apparently be incredibly grounding. Saying these thoughts out loud apparently slows the— slows the racing mind, bringing a sense of calm and clarity. And there is another person in the article, Ella Shoya, a writer and self-described self-talk enthusiast. She believes this habit has a unique power to reduce inner chaos. She likens it to untangling a knot, where verbalizing your Your thoughts forces you to focus and become more intentional. Al, thoughts?

Al ElliottI'm loving that Ellie is a self-described self-talk enthusiast. That's something I definitely put on my LinkedIn profile. A couple of things that you're thinking there. First of all is I am 100% behind this, but then I am quite extroverted. I'm not very, but I'm definitely much more so than Leanne. What annoyed Leanne quite often is that I will say, oh, I'm thinking of doing this, and Leanne will go, well, when are you going to do it? I'm like, no, no, no, no. This is literally the thoughts coming into my head. He's now fallen out my mouth and into your ears. That's how new this thought is. I'm only just learning what I'm saying when I'm— when you're learning, when you're hearing. So I'm wondering if it does slightly skew towards those who are, um, who are— what, not entrop— entropic? What's the word I just used? Exo-something. What was the word?

Leanne ElliottExtrovert?

Al ElliottExtrovert! Sorry. Yeah, I obviously need to have a bit more self-talk there. Uh, so it does— it potentially might actually just, just apply to those people. And when we say extrovert, I think Leanne's described I mean, that tends to be that, uh, we get our energy from talking to other people, whereas introverts get their energy from not necessarily talking to other people. It's not about shyness or gregariousness or anything like that. See, I had to remember the name, the word gregarious, and not the word extrovert. So that's the first thing. The second thing I find it very, very useful is to talk out a problem, because when I write it down, I don't really— it doesn't really work, but talking it out works. So I found 2 key hacks here which I really enjoy. First of all, is that I've got some old AirPods that broke about 2 years ago. So why— I take those out sometimes, stick them on my ears, and chat to myself.

Leanne ElliottOh yeah, good idea.

Al ElliottAnd if someone— and if you come across someone, they're not going to look at you like really strangely. They're just gonna go, oh, he's on the phone, it's fine. The second thing I found which is really useful, which is a paid thing, but, um, ChatGPT. You can now chat to ChatGPT, uh, via your voice. Um, I find that really useful because quite often— because they'll talk back as well, which is quite useful— they do interrupt. Which annoys me a little bit, but I find that really useful. So those are 2, those are 2 tips from another Ellie, another self-described self-talk enthusiast.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I think, I think we've probably all done it and will reflect on actually how in that moment it helps somehow. And I think certainly those, I guess some of them will be, will be affirmations, weren't they? And I think actually it was Dr. Audrey Tang who talked about that on the show about this time last year, actually how to use mindfulness, another little Um, tips and tricks to, to help calm us during the chaos of Christmas. Um, so do go back and, and listen to that. But yes, self-talk, there you go. It might be a little Christmas present you didn't even know you needed.

Al ElliottJust a thought, I wonder if people who, who are religious and pray, I wonder if that's a similar— I mean, obviously I know I might be opening a can of worms there. I'm not particularly— well, not religious at all actually, but that might be on the face of it a bit of self-talk perhaps.

Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely, absolutely. Very interesting. I'll leave the link Al, what have you seen this week?

Al ElliottWell, I have a question for you, Leanne. Should bosses have favourites?

Leanne ElliottShould they have favourites? No. Do they have favourites? Probably.

Al ElliottWell, I'll tell you who does. The founder and CEO of Airbnb, Brian Chesky. He has been pretty open about it in an interview with Fortune magazine recently. It's 35 minutes long. It is really good. And also, from a nerdy point of view, really well produced. It's beautifully shot. Brian reckons that having favourites is the only way great leaders can build great teams. I'm, I'm looking forward to what Leanne says about this. This is what he says: the favourites have to be picked on a fair criteria, but if you can't say— but you can't say this is a high performer and this is what excellent looks like, then you're going to be in big trouble. That's just not good leadership. Clearly it's working for Chesky, as he runs an $85 billion company and claims his culture is one of the best in the business, but it's not a handful of favourites for Brian. It's around 100 people. Now, Chesky regularly invites these favourite employees to major business meetings where, you know, big decisions are being made. And he also admits to regularly texting and calling these chosen employees. He says, you can have people making sure there's not unconscious bias, people keeping you honest, but the notion that a CEO should not have discretion in deciding who should be in a room is wrong. I'm going to take him to task there. I don't think that's necessarily a favourite thing. That's just making sure you have the right people in the right room. So does having favourites make you a good manager? Well, we go back to a study by McKinsey back, I think it was 2001. They found that bad, uncaring bosses were the top reason people quit during this great resignation period, which was, I think it's kind of coming to the end lately now, but it was sort of 2021 to about '23, '24. And so the point is that if you can show you clearly care about an employee, then surely that's the way to get someone to thrive and be loyal. There is that mantra, I can't remember what it is, it's something like, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care, kind of thing. So I think definitely there's an element of that. However, research quoted in the article shows that good bosses take the time to discover their workers' strengths and help them use these strengths at work. Now, with 7,000 employees at Airbnb, clearly Brian has to be selective about selective about who he invests his time in. Now, the article does warn this might not be the best strategy for everyone. I'll read from the article. It says blatant workplace favouritism can make other employees feel like they're an outgroup. This is by— I'm not quite sure how to say these words out loud— Ginka Tuego. Sorry, Ginka or Ginka, if I've got that wrong. This person is a professor of organizational behavior at the International Institute for Management Development. So is it fair to have favourites at work? I mean, it's probably a little bit inevitable, but should you keep quiet about it? Lee, thoughts?

Leanne ElliottEverything you kind of said there, I'm not sure favourite is the word I would use to describe what's being done there. It seems more like effective or capable or competent or diverse or, you know, and so I don't, and you know what, this is the kind of thing that frustrates me about these big tech bosses who do these types of interviews is that yes, if somebody takes the time to read through the article, they'll probably come to the same conclusion, like, oh, you're not really talking about favourites, you're talking about something else. But if you're just reading the headline and then skim through the first paragraph, you might just think, oh yeah, I can have a favourite, that's fine, that's totally fine, Airbnb CEO does it, I can have favourites. Um, and that's not quite, I don't think, what he's saying, although it's the word he's using. Um, so yeah, but I guess it's getting you reading it and it's getting us talking about it. So from a marketing perspective, I understand Um, but I'm not sure he's talking about favourites there, is he?

Al ElliottNo, I, I agree. And I think that he, he does use that word favourites, but I don't think it means what he thinks it means. No, I'm sure it does. I'm sure he knows exactly what it means. But it's, it has definitely been plucked out of that 35-minute video as a way to catch my attention and then to get me to talk about you. So well done, whoever wrote that article, because you've, you've done everything you need to do. Uh, talking of people writing articles, I'm sure someone's written something else this week that you've been looking at, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottYes, and it's another one that's right up your street, Al. I think you'll like this one. So according to an article in The Telegraph, there is a growing trend of young professionals leaving Britain for sunnier shores.

Al ElliottUh-huh.

Leanne ElliottCan't imagine who might do things like that.

Al ElliottRidiculous. Yeah.

Leanne ElliottUm, so Vlad Yatsenko, the billionaire co-founder of Revolut, thinks it's a wake-up call for the UK. Okay, so speaking about the exodus of talent, he pointed out that remote working has enabled workers to move abroad in search of better weather, lower taxes, and a more attractive lifestyle. So countries like Portugal and Italy, he noted, are rolling out the red carpet with tax breaks for the under-35s and incentives for foreign talent, making them prime destinations for career-minded young people. He says before ambitious young professionals came to London to build their careers, but now the UK is competing with Southern Europe. The numbers also seem to back this up. Lisbon is emerging as a major startup hub, and Italy is having a strong year in tech funding, with early-stage investments reaching $2 billion so far. This shift is, is significant, it seems. For decades, London has been a magnet for talent, particularly in finance and tech. But as other countries create environments that blend professional opportunities with professional perks, the UK's edge is being challenged. So Yatsenko believes the government must act decisively to prevent this talent drain by improving financial incentives and fostering a more appealing lifestyle for young professionals. Um, interestingly, despite these concerns, he also still sees the UK as a solid place to a fintech business. Um, Revolut, which he co-founded in 2015, remains headquartered in Canary Wharf and employs more than 10,000 people globally. The company has though embraced remote and hybrid working models, and leveraging transparency and performance, they track, um, productivity and maintain that performance. He views remote work as a standout perk. While many leaders are pushing for for employees to return to the office, he believes that Revolut's approach focused on clear accountability makes location irrelevant. And that is good for business as well, it seems. The company recently secured a UK banking license, allowing it to expand into regulated products like digital mortgages, and has more than 50 million customers worldwide and counting. So the question from this article is, will the UK remain a hub for innovation Or will it lose its competitive edge to Southern Europe if it doesn't adapt? Our thoughts.

Al ElliottFirstly, what a surprise that a UK-based company who's just got a UK banking licence, who is lending to UK companies, thinks that the UK is a good place to work. It has confused me why he's even said this in the first place, because unless he's just trying to get in the news so that he can actually talk about Revolut and And the UK, we are quite bearish on the UK, unfortunately. I mean, let's let's not go down that route because most regular listeners will know we left the UK about 2013, lived in Europe ever since, and this is probably where they will bury me because I'm not sure I necessarily want to go back to the UK. I feel that politically it's all a bit weird. I think the new government is just doesn't seem to be helping. If you if you want to see some some radical views, then go on to. Twitter and follow Daniel Priestley. Um, he's very, very vocal about, about why this current administration is getting it wrong. But on a kind of a more sort of like localized level, if you can pardon the pun, um, there are so many other great places in the world, but even in Europe, uh, for you to build a business. Uh, as you said, you mentioned Portugal already, Italy. Um, Serbia is a fantastic tech hub. Um, and also like a 10th to a, a 5% of the prices in the UK where we live, uh, in Herzegovina, in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Beautiful place to live. We get 300 days of sun, very, very low tax rates, but also just a beautiful country to be, to drive around and be in. And so I wish I could be a little bit more bullish on, on the UK, but I'm not. I think, I think it's a smart move for people who can leave the UK to start their own business to do so.

Leanne ElliottYeah. And I think the thing is, you know, people, this kind of Mobility isn't new. People have done it for decades. My parents lived and worked in Saudi Arabia in the '70s and '80s, so I don't think this is a new thing. But what technology has allowed us to do, and it is a very, very privileged position, and we're very aware of our very privileged position, is that we can work within the UK but not have to physically be there. I read think speak more UK now, I think, than I— than when I lived there, because it's almost that distance that makes you want to engage much more in what's actually going on rather than being ingrained so much in it that almost you want to shut it off. Um, and if you can earn Western money and live somewhere else, um, you do get to have a really nice lifestyle. Um, so it is very privileged, but I think actually if organizations think outside the box And if there's something that their employees want to experience, you don't have to make it an all-year-round thing, but you could do a month. For example, MAP, who was on the, uh, on the show not so long ago, and Paul Barnes and Amanda, um, they actually have a, um, a structure in place where for a month, one of their employees can go to the Philippines where they have an outsourced team and spend some time there and also use half their time to travel. So there's lots of innovative things we can do with this newfound flexibility if we're open-minded enough and trust our employees enough to do it.

Al ElliottYeah, and you say privilege, and I think going back pre-Brexit, we were very privileged as, as, as, uh, Brits because we could go and spend as long as we wanted in Europe, and Leanne and I did. But since Brexit, there's something called Schengen, which still surprises me people don't know about it. But then I go, well, actually, of course I know about it because we had to abide by it. Essentially, you're only allowed 3 months in Europe, then you have to disappear. We're the Schengen zone for being tech But 3 months in Schengen zone, then you have to disappear somewhere else, then you can go back for another 3 months, etc., etc., etc. That's actually a really good way to do things. If you do want a little break in Europe, then potentially you can say to your, say to your staff, okay, well, you can have 3 months in Europe because that's all they can have anyway. And the other thing is, I, I keep harping back to this, but for me, it's all about is the outcome, the work outcome. Is the work getting done to a good standard? Yes. Does it matter where they live? No. From my point of view, no. We've used contractors all around the world, and we've had just as many rubbish people around the world as we have in the UK when we've employed them. So no, I think it is, and also just as many good people. I just want to be clear on that. So no, I'm very, very— I think this is a great idea. And the last thing I'm going to say on this, because I feel like I'm on a soapbox, is that if you are under the age of 35 and you get the opportunity to live somewhere for an extended period of time that is different to your home country, things will change massively. There's— I've always talked about this— in Spain, most of the kids live with their parents and also drive old cars. And one of the main reasons for that is that the number plate in Spain, you can't tell how old, how new a car is. Whereas in the UK, every single number plate tells you the date or how new that car is. So there's always that pressure to go and buy a new car. Anyway, soapbox. Sorry, I'm off. I'm off. I'm off.

Leanne ElliottIt's interesting. I'll leave a link in the show notes. And if you are interested in how to potentially live and work abroad, Al and I have another podcast called Decider with Life where we talk about all that stuff, including visas and taxes and the like. Um, so go and check that out.

Al ElliottYeah, definitely. I didn't know it was gonna be a pitch for our own podcast. I like it. I like it. So if you are still listening after my little rant, then after this very, very short break, we'll be back with this week's hot take from Truth, Lies and The Work. amazing Dr. Enya Doyle, who's an anti-harassment, harassment, harassment consultant. Anti-harassment?

Leanne ElliottHarassment.

Al ElliottTomatoes, tomatoes. Yeah. If you're in the UK and you've been following a certain MasterChef host story, then this should be a bit of fun. See you in a second.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory of the Lindon episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York Indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work, and we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing, but there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.

Leanne ElliottSo come back.

Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.

Leanne ElliottWelcome back. As regular listeners will now know, every week we ask a workplace expert for their hot take on the world of work. We want bold insights, we want surprising predictions, we want unpopular opinions. We don't want anything soft, we want something spicy. What is going on in the world of work? What is broken and what is coming next? This week's hot take could not be more timely, actually. This is completely accidental, um, but it worked out well. Our hot take comes from Dr. Enya Doyle, an anti-harassment consultant. The floor is yours, Dr. Doyle. I am Dr. Enya Doyle. I am an anti-harassment consultant. I work with values-based companies all across Europe to prevent and manage harassment. So I spend a lot of time talking about sex and things that shouldn't happen in the workplace. And that's what I will be talking about today. So let's, let's just crack straight on with it. What is your hot take? My hot take is that we should retire the word inappropriate. when we're talking about sexual harassment and sexual violence. There have been a couple of people in the press recently. Greg Wallace and Mohamed Al-Fayed have been in the press, and that's brilliant.

Al ElliottI really—

Leanne ElliottI'm really glad that we're covering this and that it's getting public recognition. But one thing that has been really irritating me is that it's been described as inappropriate behaviour. So I hate— I hate the word because it mainly means that it's not suitable or proper for the circumstances. So that's the definition of inappropriate, which means that we're trying to imply that it's unprofessional to put your hands on somebody in the workplace or to sexually harass someone at work. The kind of implication there that it would be acceptable on public transport or in a bar or in a hotel room, when in reality, if we actually think about what sexual harassment is and what sexual violence is, They're not acceptable anywhere. There's no space or place where they are actually acceptable or tolerable. So I think that is, that is rule one. I think one of the main reasons that, as an expert who has spent a lot of time in this, and my PhD is on sexism, so I've spent a lot of time researching this, and I've spent a lot of time also with victims and survivors and people on the receiving end of this behaviour, is that it completely minimises the impact. of it on them. It minimizes the harm. I spend a lot of time with my clients talking about the long-term mental health impacts, the long-term physical health impacts, the long-term impacts on career progression for people that experience harassment and sexual violence at work and also outside of work, but particularly at work. So it completely diminishes their experiences by calling it inappropriate. Inappropriate is like a breach of social etiquette, right? It's like, okay, you are using your phone scrolling on Instagram during a work meeting. That's inappropriate. That's tedious. That's annoying. Please, can you pay attention? I'm trying to get your attention here. Breaches of social etiquette are using the wrong fork at a fancy dinner. Tedious for some people. Some people find it annoying. For others, it's just like, okay, stop being so dramatic. It's just a fork. Whereas sexual harassment and sexual violence is not just a breach, a trivial breach of social etiquette and using inappropriate means that we treat it that way. The third reason, the final reason that I hate it is because it completely dilutes accountability for the people who— well, for 3 different sets of people. One, most importantly, for the person that committed the behaviour who has sexually harassed or sexually assaulted someone. It becomes a, oh, naughty Greg, oh, silly whoever. It's just one example of their behaviour. They'll never do it again. They've never done it before, which we know in all of these cases. It's not that they've done it once and now they're in the press, or they've done it once and now the police are at their door. It's that it's usually repeated behaviour. The second is that it dilutes accountability for the institutions. If something is tedious, If something is like a bit inconvenient, you're not going to prioritize it. You're not going to overhaul your entire management structure. You're not going to bring in experts. You're not going to top-down address it. You're not going to sack someone for it because it's just a bit tedious that it's happening. So it takes that accountability away. And the third person— set of people that it takes accountability away from are all of the witnesses. And all of these news stories They've been described as open secrets. It's an open secret about Harvey Weinstein and the 2016 #MeToo movement. Open secret. Mohamed Al-Fayed, open secret. Luis Rubiales and the Spanish football team, open secret. Greg Wallace, open secret. And in all of those cases, bystanders and witnesses didn't report it because it was trivial, because it was, that happens. It's part of the job. You come to expect it. It's just being a woman in the workplace. It's just being someone who doesn't have power in the workplace.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottSo we don't report it. So for all of those reasons, I hate it. What's your take on, on kind of the public's reaction to Greg Wallace? I think it's, it's what I say all the time, which is that we've been vastly undereducated. Loads, loads of people who are in the workforce, most of the people who are in our current workforce, weren't taught about these things at school and didn't listen to the training that they received, either because they didn't receive it at all or because it was not very good. Um, which is what I see in a lot of workplaces, is that people don't actually know what harassment, um, and assault is. So people don't know— people, when they use the inappropriate branch, they, they go into like, oh, people can't take a joke and it's cancel culture gone mad, um, and all of that sort of stuff. Now, that's not necessarily our fault that we haven't been educated. Um, I have spent a lot of time working to educate myself on this. I didn't wake up one morning and be like, I know everything there is to know about sexual harassment and sexual violence. So I think on the one hand, and it's not an excuse, we've been vastly undereducated about what it means and about its impact. I think to your point, re the double standards, I think for a lot of people, particularly around the class aspect of Greg Wallace being the kind of working man superhero, like being the presentation of the working man on social, like on his platform. There is an element that there are definitely far more people on all broadcasting stations, on all TV shows, in all companies who have not yet been held accountable for their behaviour, irrespective of their sex, gender identity, their age, their class, their sexual orientation. Irrespective of all of that, there are loads of people But that is not a reason to say that Greg Wallace should get off the hook for the behaviour that he's reported to have done just because other people haven't been held accountable.

Al ElliottOkay, great.

Leanne ElliottWho else? Who else do we need to talk about? Who else needs to be put under the accountability microscope? Because you're right. Like, if there are— if we're holding one person accountable, let's do the whole lot. Let's keep going. And what are the other solutions to to preventing harassment in the workplace, to educating people, putting support structures in place for victims, for witnesses. What expertise can, can you offer our listeners? I offer retainers for companies that are taking the long-term approach rather than the quick tick box approach. This isn't— this wasn't created overnight and these problems weren't created overnight and they aren't one-off events. And so it's not going to be a one-off event that solves it in the workplace. So I offer that as my main thing with companies. But I would suggest to those who are kind of working on it in the background and have a handle on it, and there are some companies that do, to think about the language that you use in your policies and the way that you talk about this with your colleagues. So using legal language instead of saying inappropriate, using words like unwanted. conduct, unwanted behaviour, which then puts the onus on it being something that wasn't wanted, using phrases like illegal or unlawful behaviour to describe it rather than inappropriate. And if you are talking about the kind of social opinion, so inappropriate is that we decide as a group of people whether that's appropriate or inappropriate, using a word that you already have, particularly companies that use zero tolerance policies, don't love. The idea of zero tolerance policies, although I hazard we don't have time to get into that yet today, but you already use words like tolerable. So, it's an intolerable action instead of inappropriate. We don't tolerate that here. We have a zero tolerance approach. You already use that language. Continue to use that language instead of inappropriate.

Al ElliottJust a real quick note for those people who want to be on the show. Dr. Doyle sent us— sent Leanne a voice note, not only saying that she listened to the show, but also saying she'd like to be on the show. Not many people have done that. And in fact, we've had a couple of guests recently who've admitted to not even listening to the show. So guess where their interviews are going?

Leanne ElliottHmm.

Al ElliottYes, in the, in the bin. Uh, but the point is that if you want to be on this show and you're listening right now, then, then there's a little free tip for you. And we'll watch. RIP your inbox, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottAnyway. Oh, that's fine. Happy, happy to receive them. Happy to receive them. Yeah, um, I thought it was really interesting and very timely with what is happening with Mr. Greg Wallace in the news at the moment. Um, I must admit, I'd never really thought about it before, that inappropriate behavior wasn't a good term. But once Dr. Doyle kind of point— Dr. Doyle pointed out how the word inappropriate isn't really strong enough, it made complete sense. It is too soft for serious issues like harassment, like violence. We need to be using stronger terms to really reflect the severity of these types of behaviors. We need to be using terms like unlawful or intolerable. It really is the only way to reflect, reflect the harm. And as you know, as Dr. Doyle said, if we soften it too much, and it's a word that can be applied to so many other quite normal, non-harmful situations, it doesn't carry the weight we need. it to do. So now if someone says, oh, that was inappropriate behaviour, you go, all right, yeah. If someone says that was unlawful behaviour, you go, I'm sorry, what? Like, I want to know more about that. What do you mean it's unlawful? So I think, I think that's a really great point. Even just the semantics we use could be helpful in actually educating people on harassment in the workplace.

Al ElliottOkay, Le, so it's on to my favourite time of the week.

Leanne ElliottIt is. Before, before we do, I just do want to say that we will leave all the links Um, for, um, Dr. Enya Doyle in the show notes if you want to find out more about how she can support organisations eradicate harassment in the workplace. And we also have a full interview with her coming up in the new year, so make sure you stay tuned for that.

Al ElliottYes, sorry about that, Dr. Doyle. I kind of stole some of your, some of your lines there. Go, go check out the show notes. All the links to everything we're talking about is in the show notes, which the lovely Leanne will do with the help of a certain person, certain employee called ChatGPT. Anyway, so as I said before, it's my favourite time of the week. It is time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where put your questions to the lovely Leanne. I know I say this every week, but Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist. That is something not anyone, anyone can say. You can say— anyone can say they're a psychologist, but no one can say they're a chartered occupational psychologist unless they've done, I think it's 6,000 years of stuff at university. She's got experience.

Leanne ElliottThings last a while, that's for sure.

Al ElliottShe's got the experience, she's got the qualifications, she's got the postnominal, she's got the look, she's got everything. It's her job to give our lovely listeners, that's you, advice on work-related problems. So talking of problems, here is the first letter we've got. It's not a letter, it's an email. Dear Leanne, I've been a department manager at a fast-growing tech company for just over 3 years. When I started, I loved my job. I had a clear direction from above, great relationships with my team, and I felt I was making a real difference. But over the past year, something's changed. I can't quite put my finger on what's wrong. These days I'm spending most of my time in meetings with directors discussing strategy and KPIs, then rushing to put out fires with my team, leaving no time to actually implement any of these grand plans that, uh, that we seem to come up with. My own manager seems too busy to provide support, just dropping in with urgent requests or to ask why something isn't done yet. Great, great, um, role model there. Well done. Meanwhile, I see junior staff getting cool development opportunities and the leadership team attending exciting strategy days. days while managers like me are just expected to keep things running. Oh, that's sad. I used to be so passionate about this company, but lately I feel like I'm just going through the motions. Leanne, is this just what being a middle manager is like?

Leanne ElliottYes, but it shouldn't be every day. I think middle managers do have a hard time because you, you get it from all angles, don't you? And, and it, it, it's a lot. So there's a few things here that I think require a bit of A bit of reflection on your part to really understand what's going on. I think the first thing is understanding that as a middle manager, are you delegating? Are you providing your teams with also core development opportunities to do the things that really at this point are beyond your pay grade? Things that they can help you with, things that they can add to in terms of projects, maybe projects that they can lead on your behalf, like these grand plans the leadership team want you to implement. That might be one person who might be having a working group or a steering group to help you with these things. Middle managers are really typically protective of their world because they know the stakes are high, because you're going to potentially upset the people above you and upset the people below you. So that sense of control can often be in hyperdrive if you're a middle manager. So learning how to delegate is really important. And to learn that, I would go back to our episode with Kate Waterfall Hill. She talks about delegating Delegation so brilliantly and very practically. Also, go to our YouTube channel. We've got some shorts up there on delegation. And she's basically kind of saying that, I think if I remember right, the 1-3-1 method. So, somebody comes to you with one solution, you ask them for 3— sorry, they come to you with one problem, you ask them for 3 possible solutions, and you ask them which solution they want to go with. You then ask them, what do you need from me? How can I support you in this? And when should we check in to see how you're getting on? And it's simple things like that, that if you look through kind of the fires you're putting out, looking around and going, do I need to put out this fire, or actually could my team put out this fire if I give them the, the agency and the tools needed to, to do that? So that'd be the first thing I'd look at, is how there might be ways that you can better manage or delegate your workload to allow you the time you need to focus on those value-add activities that you have as a manager in the business. The second thing I'd say, are you okay? Because this sounds a bit like burnout as well, when we're often overwhelmed, Overworked, underinspired. We start to disconnect. We start to get cynical. We start to become exhausted. They're the three main symptoms of burnout, and with that comes lots of emotional reactions. Like you said, you know, you're not feeling the love for your job anymore, but also some cognitive signs of that as well. You can get brain fog. You can make it seem harder to make decisions, and and that is going to add to your workload as well. So I think there may need to be a check in on how you're doing and how you're managing your work life boundaries, and how you're. investing in your own wellbeing right now as well. The final thing I'd say is, has there been a fundamental shift in the organisation in terms of the leadership team you're working with, in terms of the relationships within the workplace, in terms of the vision and mission? Do you still connect with that? Do you still believe with that? Believe in that? Are you just becoming disengaged, and is it actually just time to move on? And I think with some self-reflection across those 3 things, you might be able to identify some areas that you can make your day-to-day life easier in the short term, and also potentially look at the mid to long term as to whether this organisation is still the place for you, or whether it's time to move on to the next thing.

Al ElliottExcellent advice. I'd never thought about the burnout thing. That's a really, really good point. I think the way that Leanne describes management to me, or great managers to me, I always have in my head kind of an image of a snowplough. And it's driving down the street, and the problems or the challenges stopping the traffic from getting through is snow, and a great manager gets in front of them and just takes this snowplough and moves them all out the way so the rest of traffic can just move, move kind of like smoothly. And I feel that if you're not careful, then you forget that's your role. And the, and the, the reason I say this, the tonality in some of this is that, um, I feel like I'm getting moved, uh, missed out. I think what's— I see junior staff getting cool development opportunities, not development opportunities, cool development opportunities.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottThey're people extending— are attending exciting strategy days while people like me expect to keep things running. Again, that could be the cynicism from burnout. Um, it could, it could just be that, that you, you need to accept, I think, as— and I've not, I've not managed too many people, so Leanne, please correct me— I think you need to accept that management is very often doing stuff that no one's really going to see.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottBecause you're like— Leanne always says the greatest manager she ever had was saying, hide the wires. So a lot of people wouldn't even know what, what John, who who was Leanne's manager, did. But Leanne knew, and John was happy just to keep doing that work and getting things, getting problems out of the way without any kind of public reward for it.

Leanne ElliottI think actually, and that's the other way around, my senior manager knew what I did because we talk about it quite a lot. But I had a member of staff, Alec, hi Alec, who actually ended up taking over my job when I got promoted into the next role. And I remember the first day of kind of the handover, he went, I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you do. It's like, I know you make my life easier, and I know like you make things work, but I'm not sure what you actually do to make that happen. Um, and after about a couple of weeks, he's like, oh no, I get it, you do a lot. You do a lot. I'm like, I know, I know, totally. So with that in mind, how can I support you? Um, you know, with what's going on. So you have to have that relationship with your senior manager as well. And it sounds like they're not a great, a great manager that you've got if they're just coming to you and giving you more stuff Well, good luck with that.

Al ElliottUm, and if things do get better or you move on, just write to us, let us know. It'd be cool to get— we've never had one of the follow-ups from one of the ends.

Leanne ElliottWe haven't. We haven't. Equally, this is a great thing to take to your coach if you do work with a coach. If you don't work with a coach, now's probably a really good time to get one. I offer coaching. We also know lots of coaches, um, in our network, so that might be something you're interested in exploring, to have somebody help you with this period of reflection. Then get in touch.

Al ElliottOkay, so the second letter we've got, again email, is— says, says this: Our software company recently went through a restructure where we merged with our legacy systems team who've been with us 5 and a half years. With our new digital transformation— oh, sorry, we've put the legacy team with the digital transformation team. Sorry, sorry, sorry. On paper, it made perfect sense, combining deep product knowledge with fresh digital expertise. In reality, it's become a bit of a nightmare. The 2 groups barely interact unless they're forced to. The legacy team feels their experience is being Well, the new team is frustrated by what they see as resistance to change. Just yesterday, we had an incident where the legacy team implemented a fix their way, completely bypassing the protocols the transformation team had put in place. Ooh, it's treading on toes, particularly if you're a development company. Hmm. In retaliation, the new team is now refusing to include the legacy team members in their sprint planning sessions. What's worse— I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh. What's worse is that clients are starting to notice. attention in meetings. Both teams are highly skilled, but this rift is affecting our ability to deliver. How do I fix this divide before it comes— becomes irreparable?

Leanne ElliottVery common when you merge teams together. Very, very common. And I think the problem that you've probably got is that on paper it makes sense, and it probably does, but have you communicated what's on paper and why it makes sense to the team? Do they know why this makes sense? And there's, there's 2 different things here. I was actually talking about this. Um, with somebody the other day, and we were kind of saying that how there's— when you look at teams, you want cohesion. Cohesion is what makes teams work. There's 2 types of cohesion in psychology. There's task cohesion and there's social cohesion. And often what we look for and focus on and obsess over is social cohesion. Does everyone like each other? Is everyone getting on? Is everyone working together nicely? Um, and in this scenario, it sounds like no, they're not. And without social cohesion, As you're seeing, the team isn't working very well together. Social cohesion is a really tricky thing to fix quickly, and quickly enough that it doesn't start to impact your performance. Task cohesion, on the other side, on the other hand, is much more transactional. And this will be going back to your piece of paper that says it works. And what you really want to do is, is talk to your team, your newly merged team, about the task in hand. And how each team and each individual within it contributes to the goals that you have, to the mission that you have. And this is going back to, to in our RX7, the role section. And the first thing really is to make sure you understand how these teams should be working together. So what is the main mission of this team, the main overarching deliverable? What are the tasks associated with that, and what are the goals, the outcomes you expect them to achieve? Get that really clear on paper, and also who is contributing to what, how they all need to interact together to make this task work and to perform. Because the thing is, nobody really— very few people get up in the morning and want to do a really crappy job. Most people want to do a good job, but they're just missing the clarity that they need or the motivation they need to do that good job. So by going through this, this, um, exercise, what you're going to do is be able to create a really clear plan and reasoning to newly merged team of how this will all work and how if we all just do these tasks and how they're all interconnected and how we work together to achieve this goal, that's going to make everyone's life easier. And what do we need to understand about each other's roles in that? And what do we need to understand about process in that? And what does need to be gone through? And people will buy into a transactional process much more easily than they go buy into something they were, you know, trying to rebuild relationships that have started to break down. So focus on Cohesion, because the other really cool thing about task cohesion is once people buy into it and once they get into the flow of it and realize that their job does get easier, and actually Claire from the other team is quite helpful in some scenarios, and John over there did a cracking job with that customer proposal, they start to appreciate each other more. That respect starts to grow, that trust starts to grow, and that is a perfect foundation for social cohesion. And when you have 2 of those things together, that's when you have optimal performance. But you can get to a really good point of performance.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne Elliottjust with task cohesion. So my advice would be to focus on that.

Al ElliottWow, I love it when you get all passionate and all, um, and all psychology on me. I think that's really cool. I've never heard of that task cohesion, social cohesion. Um, so what you're saying is that if you can get task cohesion first, right first, then the social cohesion will often, will often follow. Uh, if we go back to, I think, episode 150 or 152, um, in one of the articles that I was talking about, I was talking about how to deal with, uh, broken relationships at work. Um, there's a really great article You probably don't need to listen to the entire episode.

Leanne ElliottYou might as well while you're there.

Al ElliottYou might as well. But, um, if you don't want to, then check the show notes and there's a link to, um, to an article. I can't remember where it's from, but, um, and that's got some really good advice about repairing, uh, repairing relationships. But I absolutely love that. Leanne, recently one of my best designers admitted to having anxiety attacks before client meetings.

Leanne ElliottOh dear.

Al ElliottI know I might have started this a little bit too effusively. Um, and also noticed, I've also noticed more people working through lunches or logging on during evenings. I want to make wellbeing a priority, but unlike the big agencies, I don't have the budget for gym memberships, meditation apps, or an in-house therapist. I've tried researching wellbeing strategies online, but it's overwhelming. Some articles suggest you need a full program with mental health first aiders, wellness workshops, and dedicated resources. Others suggest things like team yoga or fruit bowls.

Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.

Al ElliottUh, this feels really cheesy, And like, as I'm just ticking some kind of wellbeing box. Realistically, I can only— this is good— realistically, I can only allocate about $2,000. What's that, about £1,800, £1,500 annually to this? Not the tens of thousands I see people spending, um, in other companies. So where can I start when I've only got limited resources?

Leanne ElliottOkay, um, I'm not surprised you're overwhelmed. There's a lot of noise out there when it comes to wellbeing, and there's a lot of nonsense Actually, truth be told. Um, there's 2, 2, 3 things bring to mind. First of all, you have one member of staff who is hitting a critical point of, of stress and is experiencing panic attacks. And as somebody who has experienced a panic attack, they are hugely debilitating. It's, it's awful. If you haven't experienced it, you can't even describe it. It's just the worst thing. So first of all, you have a person in crisis, and this person needs an individual intervention very, very quickly. It's very difficult when you don't have the resources, but there are resources out there that can help, um, and also that this person can do as part of their own, um, resources. And I know it's hard to get a GP appointment right now. I know it's hard. Um, but really, probably one of the best things this person can do is contact their GP and start to, to talk to them about the anxiety they're experiencing. And fingers crossed, they've got a good GP that's gonna respond to that. The second thing I'd say is if you don't have anything in place right now, there is a brilliant organization called Perks, and we mention them on the show quite frequently, and we're not sponsored by them. You know that we're sponsored by HubSpot, but they're just really, really good and they're really, really affordable. I think it's something like £3 per employee per month. Something like that. And you can get access to basically a whole suite of, of support services, including Um, is it called telehealth, where you have a GP appointment? I've used it before and had a GP appointment the next afternoon, which is unheard of. Um, and they can, they can help in exactly that way. There is access to, um, counseling services, uh, one-to-one counseling. There's all sorts of benefits or perks. You can see why it's called that. Um, perks that an employee can access. And if you really can't afford that, it's probably something that's, well, that the individual can do themselves. You can do it as an individual, and £3 per month to access these types of services is ridiculous. You will not find it cheaper anywhere else. So, that is another really good resource to check out for this individual. In terms of the wider wellbeing strategy, first of all, Perks is a good place to start for the overall team, and by the sounds of it, well within your budget, particularly if you did a split in terms of the cost. You could pay 50%, the employee pays 50%. The other thing is to start thinking about actually the work environment that you're creating. You said that you're seeing people working late, you know, not logging off, answering emails late into the night. The funny thing about wellbeing is that we often focus on the individual interventions that we can do, the ones I've just mentioned, whereas actually at an organisational level, there's lots that we can do. And I promise all of them you'll already be doing. It's just how well you're currently doing them. So, things like relationships, as you know, the previous question, are people working well together? Do we have any bottlenecks in processes that's causing frustration and unnecessary work? Workload? Do we have an issue with role clarity? Um, are people doing responsibilities and tasks that aren't within their remit, but there's— they've had that scope, um, that role creep come into what they're doing? There's going to be other things as well around the quality of your managers in terms of supporting people. Really, there's a lot of operational things you can do to lighten the load on your people. I would recommend looking at things like that, and really the best place to start is talking to your people, and that's free. You can just talk to them and ask some questions. Ask them how they're getting on, what's frustrating them, what's making their job harder, and how can you make their job easier. That's going to give you some clues as to what is stressing and straining the team right now, which is contributing to potentially lower levels of well-being overall. Once you have an idea of that, you'll probably then realise some things operationally you can do, which you'll, you'll be the expert in. It's your business, you know how it all works. But there'll be things operational that you can do to make this better pretty much overnight. What I'd say then is taking that, that same strategy to the next level is start to gather some insights, some analytics. And this is where something like the RX7 is really useful. Being honest, I think we're slightly out of your price range. Um, but what you can do for completely for free is the HSE Management Standards Survey. Talk about this quite a bit as well. I will leave a link in the show notes. Yeah. It's a really great survey. It's 30 questions. It's completely free. They give you the tools as well to analyze results, and it will show you areas or like hotspots in your organization where what we call psychosocial factors are influencing high levels of stress. And that is going to be relationships, it's going to be control over people's roles, it's going to be the amount of change and uncertainty in your business. And again, the HSE offers recommendations of how you can manage these things. And as I said, most of it in the first instance is operational. You're looking at organizational things that you can do, not individual interventions. And by the sounds of it, your research is pointing you towards individual interventions, and they are not as effective. I promise you, they are not as effective as actually figuring out organizationally how you can create an environment that supports your people. So that would be my advice. Focus on your person in crisis. Start to ask questions to the team about operationally what's making their workloads higher or their work harder than they should be. And then when you're ready, start to look at gathering some analytics. And the HSE Management Standards is a really great and free place to start.

Al ElliottFabulous answer. I've just reread this and noticed that this person does use dollars. Doesn't say whether it's US or Australian. I think Perks is either in the US or it's about to be in the US.

Leanne ElliottJust launched.

Al ElliottJust launched. Um, the HSE free survey you were talking about there, that is UK-based, but it'll work for American companies.

Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. Yeah, yeah, it's all online.

Al ElliottSo all of these resources will, will still apply to you. Leanne, anything else to add before, uh, before we wrap up?

Leanne ElliottNo, I think that's it.

Al ElliottGreat, good work, Leanne. If you have a question you'd like me to put to Leanne, then you know the score. Check the show notes and there's a way in which you can get in touch with me. We're back next Tuesday, but it's Christmas Eve, so we are pausing This Week in Work for a couple of weeks. Because who wants to chat about work on Christmas Eve?

Leanne ElliottNot me.

Al ElliottNot us. Nope. So instead, we're bringing you a series of full, unedited, never-been-heard-before interviews with some of the greatest names in workplace culture. We're kicking things off with Rory Sutherland. Yes, that Rory Sutherland, whose episode is by far one of the most popular we've ever, ever done.

Leanne ElliottIf for some strange reason you haven't heard of Rory Sutherland, he is the vice chair of Ogilvy and Mather, who currently employ over 17,000 people across the world. Rory is not only the vice chair but also founded the behavioral science unit within Ogilvy back in 2012. He— 2022, 2012. Um, he's genuinely— It's been a long day. He really is one of the most interesting people in the world, and you will get access to the entire 2-hour interview that Al did with Rory. We have featured probably 30% of this on the show before. Um, so you're gonna get so much new content that has never, never seen the world, never seen the light of day.

Al ElliottAnd on Thursday, it is part 1 of our now famous annual predictions episode. We bring you predictions from the top names in the industry for 2025. You don't, you don't want to miss any of this.

Leanne ElliottHowever, if you do miss it, that's fine. And if you need to miss it, that's okay too, because it'll still be here when you're ready to dip back in. Because I would really like to remind you to try and take some time off. You need to rest and recover. You need that, that space. You know, we often hear people talking about burnout, talking about being tired and exhausted. So this is a really nice opportunity to rest, recover, recharge, and hopefully these episodes will entertain you and inspire you. It's not the heavy stuff. If you do want to give all of our content a miss over Christmas, we totally understand. We get it. And if you really want to support the show, would you mind posting on LinkedIn? About us, maybe something like, loving Truth, Lies and Work podcast right now. I really liked it when they talked about X, Y, and Z. Tag us in and we'll send you something nice, maybe a cuddly toy.

Al ElliottMaybe just a cuddle.

Leanne ElliottPlease, a virtual hug.

Al ElliottWell, I'm not sure I could do that with Dr. Dolby on the show. I don't think I can give out cuddles anymore.

Leanne ElliottConsensual.

Al ElliottConsensual.

Leanne ElliottWe'll ask permission first.

Al ElliottYes. So goodbye for now, and hopefully you're starting to have an amazing Christmas.

Leanne ElliottYou're starting to get Yeah, I think a lot of people are finishing this Friday, aren't they?

Al ElliottYes.

Leanne ElliottCountdown's on.

Al ElliottSo have fun, have a great weekend, and we'll see you next week.

Leanne ElliottBye. Bye-bye. Hit me with your question stick. It's an odd song.

Al ElliottDas ist gut, ich liebe dich. Hit me, hit me. That's German. What do we—

Leanne Elliottwhat do—

Al Elliottcan you tell we're slightly pre-recording this? I'll do this again.

Leanne ElliottWhat day is it?

Al ElliottWhat year is this? Uh, this is episode 154, so this is going to go out on the 17th of the 12th. Okay, so I'll do that again.