Episode 186 · 9 April 2025 · 52:35

Are Gen-X the forgotten generation? PLUS! The 5 words all great leaders use and the emotional wreckage of DOGE, with Sara Weiner - This Week in Work, 8th April 2025

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Intro and episode preview
intro#podcast-intro #gen-x #workplace-research
Story 1: Is Gen-X the biggest work loser?
news roundup#gen-x #workplace-inequality #career
Story 2: The 5 words that make you more persuasive
news roundup#persuasion #communication #forbes
Story 3: Can work coaches fix long-term unemployment?
news roundup#coaching #unemployment #career-support
Hot Take: DOGE, layoffs & workplace trauma with Sara Weiner
hot take#doge #layoffs #workplace-trauma
Workplace Surgery: After 30 years, I've become invisible
workplace surgery#workplace-advice #invisibility #career
Workplace Surgery: The CEO's nephew applied
workplace surgery#nepotism #hiring #workplace-dynamics
Workplace Surgery: Faking online activity
workplace surgery#remote-work #productivity #mouse-jiggler
Wrap-up and what's coming Thursday
news roundup#podcast-outro #upcoming-episode

Show notes

Are Gen-X the Forgotten Generation? PLUS! The 5 Words All Great Leaders Use & the Emotional Wreckage of DOGE — with Sara Weiner

Guest: Sara Weiner — organisational psychologist, SIOP UN Chair, and outspoken voice on workplace trauma and leadership accountability.

Has Gen-X become the invisible generation at work? And what happens when mass layoffs are executed without a shred of empathy?

This week, Al and Leanne dig into The Independent's claim that Gen-Xers are being overlooked, underpaid, and edged out — despite being the most resilient generation in the workforce. Then Al shares the five words that can instantly boost your credibility as a leader (yes, there's science behind them). And in this week's Hot Take, Sara Weiner joins the show to unpack the emotional wreckage of DOGE — and why the way the US government has handled layoffs is creating trauma, not just for those let go, but for everyone left behind.

Plus, the Workplace Surgery tackles three listener dilemmas: the 30-year veteran who's been made to feel invisible, the CEO's nephew who "just happened" to apply, and a team that's faking online activity.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Has Gen-X become the biggest work loser? The Independent's piece highlights how Gen-Xers are increasingly overlooked, underpaid, and edged out — despite being the most resilient and experienced generation in the workforce. Al and Leanne explore the "perfect storm" facing the latchkey kids: squeezed between Boomers who won't retire and Millennials/Gen-Z who are being fast-tracked. Read more →

2. The power of five words to sound more persuasive Al shares five words that can instantly boost your credibility as a leader — including "because", "together" and "yet". The science? Adding "because" to a request increases compliance by more than 30%, even when the reason is weak. Psychology Today → Dr Cheryl Robinson →

3. Can work coaches really fix long-term unemployment? With nearly 3 million UK adults off work due to long-term sickness, the government's plan to deploy 1,000 work coaches sounds promising — but is it? Leanne shares her insider perspective from her previous role working on these very programmes. Yahoo Finance UK →

🔥 Hot Take: DOGE, Layoffs & Workplace Trauma

Sara Weiner, organisational psychologist and SIOP UN Chair, joins the show to explain why mass layoffs without empathy create trauma — not just for those let go, but for everyone left behind.

Sara pulls no punches on the DOGE approach: the refusal to engage with experts, the Dunning-Kruger effect on full display, and the devastating impact on vital human services. She argues that efficiency without compassion isn't efficiency at all — it's destruction.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

Invisibility: "They promoted the 30-something again. After 30 years, I've become invisible."
Nepotism: "The CEO's nephew applied — and now I'm being pressured to hire him."
Faking it: "My team's faking online activity… even though I don't care when they work."

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

🎧 Coming Up Thursday

Our next guest is TED speaker and late-career coach John Tarnoff — a man who's been fired from 40% of his jobs and still built a wildly successful second act. If you're over 45 (or just curious what career reinvention really looks like), don't miss it.

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript

Al ElliottComing up this week in work. Are Gen-X the biggest losers in today's workplace? New research says they're facing age discrimination, shrinking salaries, and fewer opportunities, even after decades of experience. And later in the Workplace Surgery, we'll hear from a listener who's experiencing exactly that— repeatedly passed over for promotions by younger colleagues. So is Gen-X being unfairly overlooked, or is this just workplace evolution?

Leanne ElliottCan work coaches really fix the UK's long-term unemployment crisis? With nearly 3 million people off work due to sickness, the government plans to deploy coaches to help people back into jobs. Is this the solution, or just another misguided quick-fix scheme?

Al ElliottAnd we'll reveal one simple word that instantly makes you sound much more persuasive and boosts your leadership credibility. Stick around to find out what it is.

Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the Welcome to the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.

Al ElliottAnd my name is Al, and I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures. Let's get straight into this week's episode after a very quick message from our sponsors.

Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back, welcome, welcome. It is Leanne's favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup.

Leanne ElliottIt is my favourite time of the week. Cue that jingle, Al.

Al ElliottBeing cued. What have you seen, my love?

Leanne ElliottHas Gen-X become the biggest work loser?

Al ElliottI'm Gen-X and I'm a bit of a loser, so yeah, maybe.

Leanne ElliottWell, this is a question that The Independent put on the table this week.

Al ElliottThe Independent? You're fancy, aren't you these days?

Leanne ElliottI know. Um, it was a piece by Stephen Armstrong. All right, Stephen. Um, it's not just clickbait. Um, apparently the article's called 50 and Out: How Gen X became the biggest work losers with 10 years still to go. Ouch. It paints a pretty stark picture of a generation that once ruled the creative economy, Al, but are now being pushed to the sidelines. So Armstrong starts with his flashback to the '90s, the good old days. He's on assignment in Dubai for a glossy magazine doing a photo shoot that's so extravagant it involved 3 boats, a model deep sea fishing.

Al ElliottWas the model deep sea fishing, or was it a model and also deep sea fishing?

Leanne ElliottI think it's a model Deep sea fishing.

Al ElliottGoodness.

Leanne ElliottAnd a guy that's just there for the vibes, you know, like kind of a, you know, what's his name?

Al ElliottBez. Bez? Oh, with, from, with the Maracas? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean.

Leanne ElliottJust there for the vibes.

Al ElliottIf you're from Manchester, you know what I'm talking about. If you're not, you probably don't.

Leanne ElliottSo totally normal for the '90s. He talks about journalists that are earning 6-figure salaries for a handful of articles, photographers that are flying business class to shoot handbags. Gen-X was essentially riding, riding high. But now not, not so much. The same generation now in their late 40s to late 50s, is facing job insecurity, shrinking salaries, and a real sense of being edged out. According to Armstrong, and backed by data from Indeed and AARP, Gen X is the least satisfied group at work today and the most likely to feel overlooked. Around 80% say they've faced age discrimination, and many are being replaced or sidelined by younger, cheaper, and more tech-savvy workers, or maybe by AI. And it's happening just as life is getting more expensive. Many Gen Xers are supporting both aging parents and grown-up kids while also trying to figure out how to retire with very little pension security. In fact, they're the least likely generation to be on track for a comfortable retirement according to Get Pension Ready. What really strikes me though is how quickly the creative and media jobs Gen X built their careers around have either disappeared or been completely devalued. So today, senior journalists are earning about £22,000, graphic designers about £28,000, Photographers around £24,000, and many are retraining as coaches, therapists, or wellness practitioners just to stay in work. That in itself is, is a problem, but another conversation for another day, Al. Um, so from a small business perspective, why should you care? Well, it raises some really big questions. Are you underestimating the value of experience? Are we too quick to write off people who don't speak fluent TikTok or AI prompt engineering? And if Gen X feels like it's being pushed out, What does that say about how we build sustainable teams with a mix of ages, skills, and perspectives? Al, as the Gen-X in the room, do you think we are guilty of overlooking Gen-X in the workplace, or is this just a natural shift out with the old and in with the new?

Al ElliottIt's kind of difficult because we are in a very specific sort of like unique perfect storm here where there is so much more technology now. So boomers at my age, I'm 48, Boomers at my age wouldn't have had AI coming in, wouldn't have had all the technology that's come in in the last 20 years. So it is a bit of a perfect storm. I, I don't know. I think part of me goes, it is sad. Part of me goes, well, Gen Xers, you know, we were, we were the original latchkey kids. We got on with it as kids. When we played out, we played out, fell over, broke an arm, and then carried on playing and then nipped to hospital and went back in for our tea. It's like, we can do this. We've got this. We've got resilience. That's the one thing that we've got as a generation is resilience. So why not retrain? Why not go, okay, all right, God, this is gonna be annoying because I just thought I got rid of the kids. Just, you know, I just thought my life forgot. But no, in the evening, an hour learning a bit about, uh, about AI or RAG or something like that. In the evening, learning how to code with so many things like Replete these days and, uh, Lovable and all the other ones I can't remember, Bolt AI. There are so many things that you can actually learn how to code. Now you don't have to necessarily code so you can build something amazing, but at least you can be involved in the conversation in the room. So I'm like 30%, oh yeah, this is a bit shit, isn't it? And 70%, this is an opportunity, especially if you think about your competition as not necessarily your competition being millennials or Gen Z, but your competition being other Gen Xers who are too lazy to do what you are gonna do, which is spend an hour or 2 hours retraining.

Leanne ElliottAt night.

Al ElliottBut just as a quick aside, I did, I was reading a similar article to this, maybe even like The Guardian. Not that I'm particularly politically towards The Guardian, but I read it in The Guardian. Maybe it was like, it was a similar article they'd taken from the same sources, but they were saying that, uh, someone at work was training a Zoomer on a computer and that's exactly like training a boomer because they're so used to iPads and phones that when you actually try and say, there's a mouse, they click on this, they go click and they press with their finger on the screen. It's like, no, no, it doesn't work that way. Anyway, so I don't know, Leigh, what are your thoughts?

Leanne ElliottYou're right. Your research does show that Gen-X tends to be highly resilient. They are the latchkey kids. And the same with the older millennials as well, the geriatric millennials, which I am one. I don't appreciate the term, but I understand there's a difference between me and some of the younger millennials. But yeah, research has found that Gen-X is the most entrepreneurial generation in history. They've seen economic crashes, more than one. They've seen tech revolutions, more than one. Workplace structures, more than one. They're adaptable, but they're also probably a bit weary, and with that can come this sense of detachment that we're currently starting to see. It is one of the three key, one of the three main symptoms of burnout is that detachment from work. So I think in terms of an organisational's role, it's really kind of going, look, if we've got all of these talent shortages that we're concerned about, if we're concerned that Gen Z are lacking the soft skills that they need, the resilience they need, we've got this really big. Group of employees already in our organisation that have all these things that the younger generations are lacking. And I think it just, it just really emphasised the point that we need all generations working together to bring both the experience and that accumulative judgement that, that an older person has with the innovation and scrappiness and impatience of, of younger people. If we can find a balance rather than just continue to go for each other, Then I think organisations will be in a much, a much better place. So yeah, I agree, Al. I think this is an opportunity for Gen X. I think it's a massive opportunity for organisations.

Al ElliottYeah. And also, like, if you are a slightly younger boss, manager, business owner or something, and you're thinking, you know, oh, well, this sounds really good, so let's get Gen X on it. Just bear in mind, and this is from personal experience, but I think also a lot of people my age, we are weary and we do get tired a bit quicker. We haven't got as much energy as we used to have. I've noticed this. Particularly over the last 3 or 4 years. If I do one big thing in a day, God, I don't have the energy to do lots of other things. Even just answering emails, I'm, oh, I'll leave it till tomorrow. So if you can pair together the energy of a Gen X or an early millennial and pair it together with the knowledge and the been there, done that, already screwed that up of a Gen Xer, you've got yourself a beautiful, beautiful team.

Leanne ElliottAnyway, Al, what have you seen this week?

Al ElliottUh, Dr. Cheryl Robinson. She wrote an article in Forbes last week about the 5 words you should be using at work to get ahead and be perceived as a leader. Leah, these are 5 single words. They're not technical. Can you have a— you haven't seen these. Can you have a guess at maybe, have a guess at 2 or 3 of them?

Leanne ElliottI enjoy leaders who explain the why. So I'm gonna say something like, because.

Al ElliottOh yes, that's number 1. Well done. Well done. Did you sneak a look at my notes before?

Leanne ElliottMaybe.

Al ElliottUh, do you— but seriously, do you have any, any other guesses, or have you seen any?

Leanne ElliottUm, no, I'm just— I honestly don't know. Um, I think again, and this is where I'd kind of, kind of go from what do I know is effective leadership behaviours, explaining the why and being transparent. Um, innovation, so anything around kind of pushing, pushing that forward, I'd imagine would be a good reflection of good leadership. Anything around collaboration.

Al ElliottWell, collaboration, you're almost onto it. Now, what's, what's interesting is that These are the— you would've thought the words you wanna be using is LLM. And you know, like I said before, uh, large language model is AI, what AI is based on. You, you would've thought you'd be using those sort of things, but actually, no, there are 5 words that everybody's heard and everybody can use. The first one is exactly what you said, because. Now, according to the research by social psychologist Ellen Langer, Langer, sorry, Ellen, if you're listening, I don't quite know how to say your surname.

Sara WeinerLanger.

Al ElliottShe said that adding the word because to a request increases compliance by more than 30%, even when the reason is relatively weak. This is because people want to make decisions based on rational thinking. So instead of saying, we need to move this meeting, we need to say, we need to move this meeting because we'll have more data by next week. Now, interesting, back in Robert Cialdini's book Influence, which is, oh, it's for the OGs of marketers. It's a phenomenal book. If you've not read it and you're a leader or a marketer, go and find it straight away. Robert Cialdini, CIA.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottCialdini influence. It is brilliant. But they found, they did a, they, they quoted this influence research around, now I call it photocopies, but I think back in the day it was, it was the '70s, there was a Xerox, uh, copier, which I guess most of our listeners don't even know what they were. They used to be like a big handle. You go, had it in my primary school. Anyway, uh, they, they, the reasons don't actually have to be particularly logical or strong to be effective. So this experiment was they asked someone to cut in line for this Xerox machine at a university. And there were 3 scenarios. The first, so the person said, this is the person involved in the experiment, said, oh, can I jump ahead of you? And then they said, can I jump ahead of you as I've got a deadline in 30 minutes? Now, of course, the idea would be, well, someone says, because I've got a deadline in 30 minutes, that's gonna get a much better response. Yes, it is. 60% of people that are allowed to cut in when they said, can I cut in? With no reason. 94% of people said, yeah, yeah, jump ahead, jump ahead. What was interesting is they also did one Saying, can I cut in because I've got some photocopying to do? Weak reason, doesn't make any sense. But 93% of the time they were successful. So I thought this was really, really interesting and something which is a really cool explanation of it doesn't have to be a particularly good reason for people to go, yep, cool, we will do that. So next time you've got something to do, then make sure you've got a reasonable reason for it. The second word is, number 2 is together. So what you're saying is, we're going to tackle this together rather than I need you to do this, because apparently it invites collaboration. Shared ownership. So if you've got a report due, you know, you need to say, we've got this report due, can we do it together? Can you add everything you know so far to it, for example, rather than, can you start this report and just get it on my desk end of day? Goddammit! End of day. EOD. I'm not being— I'm not part of the corporate culture. I learned these from Leanne.

Leanne ElliottOr COP. Which one do you prefer?

Al ElliottWhat's COP?

Leanne ElliottClose of play.

Al ElliottGet in the bin, man. Right. Okay.

Leanne ElliottYou're an AOD kind of guy then?

Al ElliottWe— I'm none of those. We will circle back to that in Q4, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottYeah, we'll put a pin in it.

Al ElliottYeah. So, so number 3 is the word curious. Now, I don't know, mixed feelings about this, but someone's saying, I'm curious what led you to that conclusion? Because apparently, according to the report, this phrase disarms, invites dialogue, and shows you're open to other perspectives. I just feel it feels very American, very overused, a bit like, Hey, I'm curious. I can't do an American accent, but like you hear quite often in podcasts, people going, I'm curious, will you just tell me? But anyway, apparently TalentSmart survey found that 90% of leaders who scored highly in emotional intelligence, in other words, knew how to frame feedback well, and they use that word. So maybe I'm wrong, Leanne. Just before I go on to number 4, but what's your thoughts on curious? I hear you in the transcripts of the interviews that we do. I do hear you say curious. And I think I say curious, but I tend to cut it out.

Leanne ElliottWhat's your experience?

Al ElliottReally? Yeah, yeah.

Leanne ElliottI think curious, I think it is quite, is quite an Americanised word, isn't it? I think, I think maybe more, I'm interested to understand, might be more of a British way of approaching that. I think it's exactly that. It invites, it invites conversation and openness and the psychological safety. I'm interested in knowing, I'm curious about understanding why you think that. It gives someone, you know, that permission to share without that kind of fear of consequence because they've already said, you know, I'm just interested to know.

Al ElliottSo number 4 of 5 was noticed. And so apparently they say using I noticed to acknowledge a colleague's effort or impact even briefly is and has an outsized return. You will see, and I will make sure when I edit this, I cut to Leanne nodding because this all comes down to the whole idea of recognition. Leanne has built something called the RX7, which is basically the 7 foundations of an amazing workplace culture. They all begin with R, hence 7 times R, RX7. It's clever, isn't it? I was very pleased when I came up with that.

Leanne ElliottYou did make me change 2 of them to start with an R. They could, so it's fine, but it was purpose and now it's reason. Yeah, just saying.

Al ElliottBut anyway, so the whole point of this is recognition is one of those 7, and that's what makes a Amazing workplace culture. Anyway, so the, the 5th one and the final one is the word yet. It's a tiny word, and they say it reframes limitation as an opportunity, as in, I haven't mastered this yet. I like it. It also signals subconsciously that you're able to handle something, even if you don't know how to do it right now. So I don't normally do 2 pieces, I normally do one, but here's one that caught my attention this week. A piece in Yahoo Finance UK by Lydia Smith asking, are work coaches the answer to getting people back in the workplace? So the context here, right now about 2.8 million people in the UK are out of work due to long-term sickness, as Leanne said at the top, and these numbers are rising. Now obviously this is the lasting impact of COVID-19. We've got rising rates of depression, anxiety, stress, and of course the financial pressure from stagnant wages, cost of living crisis. It really is a bit of a shit time at the moment. So to tackle this, the UK government is rolling out a plan to deploy 1,000 work coaches to support around 65,000 sick and disabled people who've been out of work long term. The goal is to help them get back into employment through intensive personalised support. Leah, this is where you come in. I know you were one of the experts quoted in the article, were you not?

Leanne ElliottI was.

Al ElliottTalk me through it, right? Give us the context. I've given you what the article's about, but what did you say?

Leanne ElliottSo if you're wondering why, why should Leanne be able to talk about this? Um, my previous role Um, back, back a few, I was in welfare to work where I would build programmes like this that would include coaching to help long-term unemployed people with multiple barriers get back into work. So, so yeah, it was an interesting, an interesting move. Um, so when I was asked to comment on this, I was like, I'll, I'll be back in an hour. Um, yeah, it's an interesting move, and in theory it has lots of potential. And I say that from a science perspective and from an experience perspective. So the idea is that these coaches are going to provide more than just basic employment support. So they're supposed to help people navigate that whole return to work scenario after what's been a really hard and isolating time. And for some people, that kind of tailored help is going to be things like CV writing and mock interviews and job search strategies, because that can really boost confidence and break that cycle if they've just got, um, you know, documents that have more impact. I remember doing a session, a CV session with a guy, and it was like, oh, I've been to 3 other providers before and I've been told how to do my CV, um, and it's never worked. And I said, just humor me, humor me, do these techniques, and if you've not got an interview by the end of the month, then, you know, ignore everything else I say. Um, and he came back like 4 days later with the An interview and subsequently got the job. That said, that type of support does need to be given in the right context and to the right people. And ultimately, and this is going to sound really obvious, but coaching only works if it's actually coaching. And that means it's not handing over a template CV and ticking that box, or, you know, saying, oh, Google how to, how to do this, or Google how to do a good interview, or watch YouTube videos. It's powerful when there's actually that relationship between coach and coachee and actually an understanding of the barriers that that person is experiencing. Because there are going to be other barriers people are experiencing. There's going to be psychological barriers. Somebody who's been out of work for a long time is much more likely to experience mental health challenges, much more likely to be depressed, to be isolated. Having a job is going to be something that's really scary. They'll have lots of self-limiting beliefs. They'll be trapped in thinking areas like— If I can't get my old job back, I can't work at all, or I failed once, I'm going to fail every time. And that, that thinking we call distorted thinking can completely stall progress. What good coaches do is that they'll help people challenge those thought patterns. They will build their belief in their abilities, and they'll reconnect with a sense of purpose. But that takes proper training for that. You know, that coach needs to be trained. They need skills in behavioral science, motivation, mental health awareness. And right now it's not entirely clear that these 1,000 coaches the government are bringing in are going to have that level of depth. And I don't mean this is any shade to anyone who works in the Jobcentre, but this is where these coaches are being deployed from. And in my experience in Welfare to Work, Jobcentre wasn't the most trusted ever.

Al ElliottNo, I think the other— yeah, and I think the other aspect is if people feel like they're forced into this process, then it's going to be stressful, give them lots of anxiety. And also, especially if they go, if this doesn't work, your benefits could be at risk. You know, it's just, it just doesn't seem like the way that you did it back in the day.

Leanne ElliottIf I was working with the government, I'd be saying make this voluntary. And I understand that that can be, it feels harder if you can't say to them, you have to go. But actually, we've had mandated programmes for a very long time, and they're clearly not having much of an impact. You're dealing with people who have multiple challenging barriers to work. You know, we need a carrot in this situation, not a stick.

Al ElliottVery well said. Very well said. Okay.

Leanne ElliottIf you do want me to consult though, give me a call, kid.

Al ElliottYeah, Sakia. Yeah, yeah. Sakia sounds like a cake, doesn't it?

Leanne ElliottTo fear.

Al ElliottCan I have a slice? I'll have eggs with Sakia, please. Right, after this very short break, we'll be back with a hot take from Sara Weiner, who is an organisational psychologist who's worked for huge organisations like IBM.

Leanne ElliottYes, she gives us her opinion on how Doge, or Doggy, did we decide, Al?

Al ElliottDoggy style.

Leanne ElliottHas tackled the massive layoffs in US government recently. It's guaranteed to be spicy.

Al ElliottAnd of course, we also have our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. See you in 90 seconds.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast platform?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSame with Truth, Lies and Work. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, You'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.

Leanne ElliottSo come back.

Al ElliottI'll cut that out.

Leanne ElliottWelcome back. Just a quick side note before we dive into this week's hot take. We're currently in the process of putting together a little behind-the-scenes listener group that we can run ideas past in terms of episode ideas, format ideas, guest ideas. Um, we want really brutal, tough love, constructive feedback. Um, we've already got a few people on board. If you'd be interested, drop us an email, hello@truthliesandwork.com, and we'll, we'll have a chat and get you involved. But for now, regular listeners, you'll know this time of the week isn't about me plugging a listener group. It's about a workplace expert and their hot take on the world of work. Today we have the incredible Sara Weiner on the show, who is an independent consultant and fellow of the Society for Industrial and Organisational Psychology. We connected when she posted on LinkedIn describing what was happening at Elon Musk's Doge as a shit show. So yeah, this hot take is going to be spicy. As an organizational psychologist, Sara has worked with the American Psychological Association, Cindio, Uplevel, and held leadership roles with IBM, Kenexa, and Glint. She brings deep expertise in employee surveys and organizational insights, helping leaders make smarter, data-driven decisions. Sara also holds a doctorate in industrial and organizational psychology and currently chairs the SIOP's United Nations committee. So yes, she is an expert, an expert that's horrified by what has been happening at DOGE and is asking Elon, why aren't you engaging experts?

Al ElliottObviously, we are talking about some quite emotive stuff here. So, there are links in the show notes of great resources you can access if this is affecting you in any way.

Sara WeinerWhat we're seeing is a refusal to engage with experts, that there's a way to effectively and compassionately guide DOGE's efforts. And There seems to be a disdain for experts in this administration. So what's happening is that the processes and the communication for the people losing their jobs has been callous at best. It's been disrespectful. There's not been any compassion. So that's for the people losing their jobs. This approach is also certainly affecting those people who are staying. There is an environment of fear that has been created. Morale has got to be tanked. And engagement, which is necessary for people to put their best foot forward, is also being affected, no doubt. So I think that what's going to happen is that the government is going to run actually less efficiently. Um, and the services provided to the citizens of the United States is going to be severely affected in a negative way. Um, now I could go through all the steps that I would think would, would make sense and that are based on Um, evidence-based approaches. But the bottom line is that there's, there's really going to be severe consequences from the approach that has been used.

Leanne ElliottWe've seen quite a lot of astounding things happen with DOGE, who is led by Elon Musk, who has a previous reputation when it comes to redundancies, making layoffs in organizations after he bought Twitter. Um, it was a very similar, similar story there. Um, yet no real repercussions for him. Looks like he's able to come in and do it again. What is going to be the impact and consequences of how Elon Musk is approaching this, and why is it so, um, concerning for you as an organizational psychologist?

Sara WeinerI am not at all arguing that governments can be more efficient or that the government in the United States can be more efficient. Not at all. That is not my argument in any way. I am not arguing that sometimes layoffs are necessary. I will say as an aside that in my career of over 30 years, I have seen layoffs that I think are shortsighted. That in fact, the future strategy of the organization, and so this is, I think, what's also happening here, that the future strategy of the way in which these departments should run has not been carefully thought through with matching to the jobs that will be needed to accomplish that strategy. Jobs, not the people, which jobs are needed? to accomplish that strategy. And I can't believe that in the time that they've had, that they've actually been able to identify those links. Once you know the jobs you need to establish or to accomplish the strategy, then you can start identifying the people that are needed. And last in shouldn't always be first out. And that's what they're doing. They're taking people who are on probation, either because they're a new employee or because they've recently gotten a promotion, and so they're back on probationary status. So you're losing really good people who were hired for a particular reason and may be the right people to go forward. I mean, well, think about it. I mean, you're told your job is being eliminated or You're told you are no longer needed in this organization. That's a real blow to people. I mean, we're human beings. I think anybody can feel that way, that can feel that angst that somebody would be going through when that happens. In addition to real things like losing your livelihood, Like not having time to search for another job to replace it, worried about being able to pay your rent. So there's just some very real considerations. And there does seem to be, I think, a lack of empathy for people who are not billionaires, for people who are not millionaires, who have a little bit extra, you know, in their bank accounts to tide them over. And I don't know what the numbers are of people who don't have that cushion, but, you know, surely these are government employees who, you know, they're not making what they could have made in the private sector. So that's, it's a real psychological impact that we're having on people. You know, there's something, Leanne, maybe you're familiar with it as well, called the Dunning-Kruger effect, where sometimes people are incompetent at judging their own competence because of their overconfidence, right? So that, that may be what, what is happening here. Again, I don't know. And I, we can speculate all we want, but what I see is happening is not Identifying the strategy, then identifying the jobs, then identifying the people, and laying off people in a way where they have an opportunity and some time to look for another position, another role. And also, they're tanking, like I said, the engagement of people who are staying. This is not going to lead to an effective and efficient Workforce that is left behind.

Leanne ElliottThis is the US government. These are vital human services being provided to millions of people. I mean, long term, can a leader that it appears Elon Musk is really navigate this situation in a way that isn't going to be detrimental for the people of America?

Sara WeinerNo, I don't think so. Um, like I said earlier, there is this disdain for experts that has developed. You know, it's, it's this whole idea of the deep state, and I don't really even know what they mean by that. Um, that, uh, is preventing, I think, them from making decisions that will get them the results they want. I don't believe in age discrimination, and a lot has been made of this 19-year-old that's on Elon Musk's team, maybe an incredibly competent engineer, but could almost guarantee that he doesn't know and can't comment on organizational science. So I think the team they have in place is not the team they need to make the best decisions. Um, and I am fearful for the citizens of the United States in terms of services that will be received. Absolutely.

Leanne ElliottHow has this been able to happen? Because as a psychologist myself, and I know it'd be the same for you, Sara, I'm governed by many laws, lots of ethics. There are routes for people to, to get me struck off as a psychologist. I'll never practice again. Because I have the ability to impact the human experience. How is this being allowed to happen at such a scale without any seeming accountability or some governing body going, you can't do that?

Sara WeinerOh, that is the question of the hour, isn't it? I think what, what has happened is that President Trump has ideas about Saving money in the United States government in order to spend that money elsewhere. I am not going to make any statements about what the motivations are, but that seems to be what the primary goal is, right? Save money here and spend it here. I'm commenting purely on the process being used, which is disgraceful. It's a disgraceful process treating people with such disrespect. So how did we get here? Well, the people of the United States elected someone who is doing exactly what he said he was going to do. Now, in that regard, In other regards, he's not. I mean, prices are still high, you know, so things he said on the campaign trail haven't come to pass yet. And there's a lot of seeming chaos. The whole tariff decisions, again, not my area of expertise, but this chaotic decision-making.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Sara WeinerMaybe there's a plan behind it. I don't see what that plan is. If leaders in an organization in which I was consulting were behaving in this way, I can guarantee that there would be coaching to do things differently. It's really a very dire situation for For science right now.

Leanne ElliottThe one takeaway I want everyone to take from this conversation with Sara is that it's, it's situations like this where organizational psychologists, occupational psychologists are vital. This is what we're trained to do. It's not about an organization making a decision, it's how that decision is executed and the importance of having that process in place around Organizational change. We have to apply that human lens to these scenarios for it to work out best commercially. It's not just about the individual, it's about the business as well. It's about, you know, in, in this instance, the, the state of a nation. So, it's the one takeaway, please let it be what is absolutely outrageous about what's been happening with Elon Musk's Doge is at no point has there been a consultant, a psychologist in place advising on how that decision needs to be executed.

Al ElliottYeah. And as Sara said, this Dunning-Kruger effect is real. People with limited experiences do tend to overestimate their competence. It's like with that whole thing of, there's a meme, like, when you're dead, how does everyone know you're dead? When you know, when you're dead, you don't know you're dead. When you're stupid, you do. It's the same thing. Yeah. So in this situation, it appears that someone has got just enough understanding to think they know how to do something, but not enough to understand that they're doing it completely wrong.

Leanne ElliottYeah. And of course, the impact on engagement for the people who remain after these poorly executed layoffs. Um, you know, everything we've seen coming out of the US since I had that conversation with Sara is all pointing to the fact that people are frustrated, people are struggling, and people are now protesting on the streets. Um, you can make these, these brutal decisions, but if they're not done well and they're done without any sense of control from the individual, people will start to, to find ways to get that control back, whether it be disengaging from their work or—

Al ElliottAbsolutely. So to find out more about Sara's work, you should find her on LinkedIn. The link is in the show notes, or just search on LinkedIn for her name, Sara Weiner.

Leanne ElliottSo we've had my favourite time of the week, we've had our hot take, and now I believe it's your favourite time of the week, Al. What have we got in this week's world-famous workplace surgery?

Al ElliottThis is why I say this bit. This is the world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. You know this, you've listened to this before. Leanne's a chartered occupational psychologist. She's an expert. She's an amazing person. Amazing. She knows everything. So I've got 3, I've got 3 questions here that I'm going to put to her and you're going to hear her answer. The first one starts here. How I became workplace wallpaper. That's already intrigued me. I've been in my company for nearly 30 years now and I've given everything to this place. Late nights, weekends, cancelled holidays, the lot. I was always the reliable one, the person who knew how everything worked. But last week they promoted Callum to senior manager. I definitely We don't know who Callum is.

Leanne ElliottIt's not Callum.

Al ElliottOh, we never liked Callum, did we? I'm curious, Callum, why, why do you make decisions you do? Callum. Anyway, so Callum, they promoted Callum to senior manager. He's the 3rd person under the age of 35 to be promoted above me in the last 2 years. He's only been here 4 years. He still asked me how to do half the systems. I sat in that meeting watching everyone congratulate him and something just broke in me. Oh man, just broke my heart with that line. I've spent 3 decades keeping this place running, and what's it got me? A thank you card when I hit 25 years and watching people who were in primary school when I started zoom past me. I used to stay, stay late and do all the extra work. Now I just log off at 5 at the dot. Someone asked for help with the legacy database yesterday and I just said, figure it out yourself. Quite right. I do the same. I'm starting to think the last few years at work are just gonna be me watching the clock until I can escape. What can I do? Oh, Leanne, can we go and give this person a hug? This is sad.

Leanne ElliottWas there more to that? What can—

Al ElliottNo, no, that was it. What can I do?

Leanne ElliottI thought there was more. Um, oh yeah, yeah, this is hard. Listen, on Thursday we've got an incredible guest who's going to talk a lot about how to kind of reignite your, your career, um, later, later down the line. I think there's a few things here. One thing that I didn't even get from that question, do you want to be in leadership?

Al ElliottOh, that's a good question.

Leanne ElliottDo you want that promotion? There was nothing like, oh, I've worked really hard to be, you know, to get promoted, and then somebody got promoted above me. It might be as simple as, you know, now, often with the state of organisational life and climate and the pressure on managers, people don't always just have that, assume that linear career path anymore. Those traditional career pathways aren't as kind of ingrained in our organisations, so we We need people to, to express that they want to have this, this career progression, this development, um, opportunity. So I think my first thing is, have you talked to your manager about what you want in terms of a management role, a leadership role? And as a follow-up question, do you want a management role or a leadership role? Because at this point of your career, do you want to have that? put on you. And again, very much within the climate of organizational life where we're in, it shouldn't be this way, but there's a lot put on, on managers now that is going to be very draining. It is going to be very challenging. Do you want that, or do you just want the progress? You just want the pay bump? Unpicking that, exactly what, what you want from your work as you progress into its later stage of your career, is going to be really helpful and maybe reframe what happens when these younger people like Callum get promoted above you. The final thing I would say, there is a danger if you've been with the same company for 30 years, there is so much value that you can bring in terms of, as you say, you know, the legacy systems and, and how to figure all that out. There's also a danger that you might have become institutionalised to how things are done, and actually what the company really needs to move forward in such a disruptive world is disruptive thinking, And that's not to say that older people can't be disruptive thinkers. They absolutely can. Young people just have it a bit more innately and a bit more vocally because, as I always remember, Oliver Yonchev said, they've not quite been hit enough by the life stick yet. So, they're just a bit more energetic and optimistic. Sometimes when we become institutionalized, we can start to get a bit cynical, a bit negative, and that isn't always the energy that we need in a disruptive Um, work environment. So, I think that requires a bit of reflection as well. My advice to you, engage a coach. This is a really great time to engage a career coach to help you reflect on what you want from work. It might not be the promotion, it might not be leadership, it might be something else entirely. It could be in the same organisation, it could be in a different industry altogether. Now is the time to invest in that introspection and self-reflection so you can find Meaningful, purpose-driven work for, as our guest on Thursday calls it, your second act.

Al ElliottFabulous advice. I love all of that. I think the other, the other thing potentially is to consider, listener, is that you seem to be pegging your success on promotions. When in actual fact, if you just flipped, what do the Americans say? Flip the script. If you flip the script and you just go, well, actually my success is whether I can go into work in the morning, come back at night, still have energy to do all my— all the cool things I want to do at home, but also have a really nice day. So if you are just looking at everyone else zooming above you, as I think your words were, zooming above you, you know, like, do you really want to— like Leanne says, do you really want to be that leader? Or is it just that you feel that that's the way you're gauging success arbitrarily, is people who are promoted are successful? You're successful because You know so much. You're successful because you've got a job that clearly sounds like you really enjoy. You've probably got great work relationships. You understand a legacy database. I mean, there's, there's something I've read the other day that, um, like 80% of banks, older banks, their code base is based on something called COBOL, called COBOL, C-O-B-O-L, which is a language developed in the '50s. There's nobody around who could, who can write that anymore. So, you know, that's the sort of analogy. I keep going back to these cards. I'm gonna find the different analogies. You, that's the sort of thing that you've got. You've just, I think you're in an amazing situation. And if you actually did a bit of introspection, as Leanne said, and said, what do I actually want out of this? And stop comparing yourself to others. Comparison's the thief of joy. And just start thinking, do I enjoy my life? Am I having a great life?

Leanne ElliottAnd I think the only, the only small add-on I would give that, because I think we both kind of come at it from a similar angle there, Al, in terms of what do you actually want? If this is what you want, if this is what you've been discussing, and you're continually being overlooked for younger people, there could be a case for age discrimination here, which we did hear in our first news story is a problem for Gen X+ generations. So, there may well be a case here. If you're in the UK and you think there is, my advice would be to contact ACAS in the first instance and get some free independent advice.

Al ElliottAbsolutely. And also listen to This Thursday with Jon Tarnoff. Because it is, it is going to be right up your street. Cool guy. Okay, so question number 2, the price of saying no to nepotism. This is cool.

Sara WeinerI like this one.

Al ElliottSo last week, our CEO casually mentioned his nephew had applied for a job in my department. Keep an eye out for Jamie's application, he said. He's just finished his master's in UX at a good university. Then yesterday, HR forwarded me Jamie's CV with a note saying the CEO asked us to expedite this one.

Leanne ElliottOh, no.

Al ElliottNot particularly subtle. I've now interviewed Jamie, and to be fair, he's not unqualified. He's got the right degree, decent internships, seems genuinely passionate about UX. UX being user experience, I think. So he made our shortlist, but he wouldn't be our top pick. The 3 candidates we've already selected got great experience. They're perfect for him. However, I'm getting some not-so-subtle hints from the CEO and even my direct boss that Jamie would be a great cultural fit. And think about the relationship this could build with leadership. I know exactly what they're implying. If I don't hire Jamie, I risk damaging my relationship. If I do hire him over clearly more qualified candidates, I risk losing credibility with my team. I am stuck in a rock and a hard place. Leah.

Leanne ElliottThis all comes down to the quality of the recruitment process you have in your organisation, how much that protects you in this situation. An evidence-led, robust recruitment process Is going to give you very objective criteria as to who's your number 1, 2, 3, and 4 candidates. They're essentially going to have almost a point score in terms of who is the best fit for that role within that organisation. If you have this in place, it's as simple as saying, it's, he wasn't the first pick. He did exceptionally well. He was shortlisted. He's our number 4 choice. That's just what the data shows us. That's just what the process has ended with. It is the way it is. Of course, very few organisations have this robust recruitment process in place, but by the sounds of it, there is a process in place that you've identified, you know, these, these candidates, and he is not one of the top 3. So, with that in mind, it's a, where do you want to compromise your integrity and what are you going to get out of it in the short and long term? I would always be more comfortable pissing off my leader than I am upsetting my team and undermining their view of me and their respect for me and, and that relationship. That's my day-to-day, that's my performance, that's my ongoing, um, effectiveness within this organization. Essentially, your leader's probably going to get over it, particularly if you big it up and we're like, oh my gosh, they were brilliant, and I really like this about Jamie, was it?

Al ElliottYeah, it was Jamie.

Leanne ElliottYeah, really like this about Jamie, loved that. These are some development points I'd offer him in terms of feedback from the interview. These are some of the things that we didn't quite see that we did see in other candidates. What you should be doing anyway is a really great candidate experience in the recruitment process. And approach it like that. If ultimately you're then getting undermined or work is being made harder for you, then that's, that's a formal complaint. That's bullying, that's discrimination of some kind. That is not acceptable. That is not okay. In this moment, I will always be of the view that how can I defend this decision in a court of law, which I may well be taken to if, if, you know, it's deemed that unfair hiring practices are in place? Can I defend this decision? Can I look myself in the mirror and will my team still respect me? And for me, that's sorry, He didn't make the top 3. He's our number 4 choice. This is the feedback I'd give him to go into his next interviews with. We'd absolutely consider him again for future roles that he's qualified to do. And know that you're doing the right thing for Jamie, because if they're not the right person for the job, it ain't going to work out, for the person who is the right person for that job, and for the organisation's performance overall.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottSaying no to nepotism.

Al ElliottLove it. I love it. I think the, um, just, just a little bit of, if, if you think about it from the leader's point of view, there's a very good chance that they've already, they've already promised Jamie the job going, oh yeah, yeah, dead easy. I'll just tell him to hire you. So going back to the, to the beginning where I was talking about because, if you can give a really sound reason why he's not gonna be a fit for the team right now, so you can use because, yet, you can use all those words I talked about. You can go back to them and also let this person save face a little bit, because if this leader goes back to Jamie, their cousin, or was it the nephew, and says, no, you can't get a job, and Jamie goes, but you said you could get me a job, which they probably have said, you can say, yes, but here's the feedback, and try again in a year when you've done XYZ. So I think that maybe going armed with lots and lots of becauses and using the word yet, I think is gonna be a very smart move here. Okay, so question number 3. They're faking being at their desks, but I never asked them to be there in the first place. So, this person writes, I've stumbled on something bizarre as a technical director at our digital marketing agency. While reviewing our network traffic for an infrastructure upgrade, this, okay, you didn't need to tell us that. I've discovered multiple team members using elaborate presence simulators. This is, um, I think mouse jigglers.

Leanne ElliottUm, which is very different to a mouse jiggler. We discovered.

Al ElliottWe discovered a couple of weeks ago. Yep. So they're basically trying to pretend that they're at work when they're away. The strange part is we've never monitored activity metrics or pressured anyone about online presence. We focus entirely on deliverables. Well done. Nice. Um, and deadlines, which these team members consistently meet. I've always made it clear I don't care when or how the work gets done as long as it's completed. When I discreetly asked our IT head about it, he admitted knowing about these tools and estimated at least 7 or 8 Apparently, there's an unofficial Discord channel where they start chatting about it. These aren't poor performers. These are largely our most efficient team members who finish tasks ahead of schedule. It seems like they're creating elaborate fake work patterns just to appear busy during standard hours. Should I actually address this directly, or is this some deeper cultural issue that perhaps I'm missing?

Leanne ElliottYes and yes.

Al ElliottOh, okay. Talk to me.

Leanne ElliottTake what you've written there in your question. Reword it or get ChatGPT to reword it as if you're asking a member of your team or even your, your team as a collective. Start it with, I'm curious, and see what they say. It could be that there's a complete miscommunication in terms of what they think your expectations are. It could be that there's another leader that is giving them, giving them some, you know, difficulties or challenges with with this type of outcomes-led approach to management. There could be an infinite number of reasons, but it sounds like there's a fundamental misunderstanding. If you're like, I don't care how and where you work as long as you deliver the outcomes, and your team are reflecting practices that shows that they're just busy, and busy does not mean productive or effective. So, I think the key is really ask them. It could be that there's just a simple misunderstanding and everyone's fine. It's a really quick fix. It could be that there is something really deeply, significantly wrong in the organization, either in terms of leadership or culture. It sounds like it's probably more the former, because I don't understand how you'd be able to— it would have to be a very small, like, microculture for you to be able to lead in this way and it be completely out of sync with the rest of the organization. But it's not impossible. So that's my advice. Take that question and go and ask your Ask your team and, and yeah, use those words that Al recommended. I'm curious because together I thought we'd agreed that we manage by outputs, not by busyness.

Al ElliottNice. Nice.

Leanne ElliottThank you. That's why they pay me the big bucks.

Al ElliottI think it's, um, yeah, it's a very curious, very strange, bizarre situation. It definitely sounds like there's, um, uh, like there's someone else involved here. Uh, perhaps they've got, you know, there's another team which does similar kind of things, but they're a bit more draconian where The leader's like, needs to see them. So they're like, well, just in case, it ain't no thing to go and buy a $30 mouse jiggler, you know, just in case it does go that way. But I don't know, very, very strange. Um, yeah, I've not come across that before where someone's like faking being there when they don't even need to be there. But it does sound, it does sound like there's something more deeper going on. Um, yeah, go and ask your team, as Leanne said. And also, if you do, if you're listening and you do want to chat to Leanne about this, then, um, most people don't know this, but if you look in the show notes, Leanne's email's in there. And Leanne will give you 20 minutes for free just to chat to you. Yeah. Yeah.

Leanne ElliottTrue.

Al ElliottAnyway, so I think that's all for now. Uh, you join us on Tuesday for another edition of This Week in Work. And if you have a little look at our YouTube channel, Leanne's been adding all kinds of great stuff over there in the last few, few weeks. I think you're gonna like it.

Leanne ElliottAnd if you enjoyed our guest on this week's Hot Take, then you'll love this Thursday where we have the fabulous Jon Tarnoff, who is a TED speaker. A career coach for late-stage professionals. That's Al's age group, 45 and upwards, and has also been fired from 40% of the jobs he's ever had. It's an interesting conversation, and if any of the themes that we've talked about today in terms of Gen X, in terms of being overlooked for promotions, if that's hitting home, you want to listen on Thursday. John is a really interesting guy. I guarantee you're going to learn loads, and honestly, probably regardless of whatever age you are.

Al ElliottAnd if you're listening, John, I am Loving your lighting. It is beautiful. Okay, so we will see you on Thursday. Have a fabulous Wednesday and hope you don't miss us too much.

Leanne ElliottYeah, well, we'll see you on Thursday if you do. It's only one day to get through without us, you know.

Al ElliottSee you soon. Bye-bye.