Episode 188 · 15 April 2025 · 53:01
Is British Work Culture Holding Us Back? PLUS! Why People Quit and The Hidden Cost of HR, with Emma Djemil - This Week in Work 15th April 2025
Featuring Emma Djemil
Is British Work Culture Holding Us Back? PLUS! Why People Quit and The Hidden Cost of HR, with Emma Djemil - This Week in Work 15th April 2025
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Corporate Buzzword Bingo
news roundup#corporate-buzzwords#work-culture#innovation
Is British work culture holding us back?
news roundup#british-work-culture#linkedin#productivity
What really motivates people in a crisis?
news roundup#motivation#crisis#global-instability
Hot Take: HR burnout is real, with Emma Djemil
Workplace Surgery — why do people quit instead of speaking up?
workplace surgery#employee-turnover#speaking-up#workplace-communication
Workplace Surgery — Gen Z text speak vs Gen X boss
workplace surgery#gen-z#gen-x#communication-styles
Workplace Surgery — 30 employees and zero HR policies
workplace surgery#hr-policies#small-business#compliance
Coming up Thursday + Outro
Show notes
Is British Work Culture Holding Us Back? PLUS! Why People Quit and The Hidden Cost of HR — with Emma Djemil
Guest: Emma Djemil — founder of Be Unstoppable and The HR Big Meet, HR coach and long-time HR professional.
Is British work culture quietly killing innovation, clarity and leadership? And who looks after the people whose job it is to look after everyone else?
Emma joins Al and Leanne for this week's Hot Take to call out the emotional toll of working in HR. From navigating toxic dynamics to being the organisation's emotional sponge, Emma explains why HR needs its own support system now more than ever — and why she's done with "business as usual" that makes people sick, cry or unhappy.
Before that, Al and Leanne unpack a viral LinkedIn post questioning whether the UK is too risk-averse and obsessed with tone over truth, look at new research on what really motivates people during an economic crisis, and play another round of Corporate Buzzword Bingo (featuring "double-click," "swim lane violation" and the truly awful "N+1 thinking").
Then in the Workplace Surgery: why do talented people quit instead of speaking up? Should you stop using Gen Z text speak around your Gen X boss? And does a 30-person startup with zero HR policies need to panic?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Buzzword Bingo Is Funny — Until It Isn't Christine Armstrong sparked a LinkedIn firestorm with her corporate jargon bingo card — featuring favourites like "sweat the asset" and "brain dump." Al and Leanne play a round, and explore why overusing buzzwords damages leadership credibility and trust. Source →
2. Is British Work Culture Holding Us Back? Tom Scourfield's viral post questions whether UK businesses are too risk-averse and obsessed with tone over truth. Al and Leanne unpack the five reasons he thinks the UK is falling behind — and whether he's right. (Spoiler: Tim Berners-Lee, penicillin and Concorde are all invoked in the defence.) Source →
3. What Really Motivates People in a Crisis? During Greece's financial crisis, researchers found that non-financial motivators — recognition, trust and empowerment — kept teams going. So why do we still default to bonuses and job titles? Source →
🔥 Hot Take: HR Burnout Is Real, with Emma Djemil
Emma Djemil, founder of Be Unstoppable and The HR Big Meet, joins Al and Leanne to share her hot take: "If your business as usual is making people sick or cry or unhappy, then your business as usual is the problem."
She explains why HR professionals rarely get feedback, why leaders without coaches are missing a trick, and why the people managing everyone else's behaviour need support themselves. As Leanne puts it: Who is the HR's HR?
More from Emma Djemil:
- The HR Big Meet: thehrbigmeet.com
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/emma-djemil
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- "Why do people quit instead of speaking up?" One listener watched their most talented colleague walk away without ever raising concerns. Leanne unpacks the fear, the power dynamics, and why unions might be part of the solution.
- "Gen Z text speak is confusing my Gen X boss. Should I stop using it?" From "y" to "bet ✌️" — how language creates friction between generations, and how to find middle ground without compromising personality.
- "Our startup has 30 employees and zero HR policies — am I right to panic?" Leanne breaks down the actual risks and helps this founder figure out what needs formalising (and what can wait).
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up on This Week in Work. Is the British attitude to work quietly killing innovation? One writer says yes and claims it's the reason American businesses are 5 times more successful. Are we too relaxed as Brits to compete with the American dream, or have we finally figured out that success isn't worth the burnout?
Leanne ElliottRecession fears have continued to grow this week, so we'll be looking at some new research on what actually motivates people during an economic crisis and Spoiler alert, it's not pay rises.
Al ElliottAnd later in the Workplace Surgery, one listener asks, why do so many people quit rather than challenge toxic culture, even when they've got nothing to lose? We're going to explore the psychology behind it and ask whether unions could actually help make speaking up feel safer.
Leanne ElliottAnd to lighten the load, it's time for another round of Corporate Buzzword Bingo. This week's offenders include pre-wire the meeting, swimlane violation, and the classic, let's take this offline, shall we?
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Leanne ElliottMy name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name is Al and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures. Let's dive straight into this week's episode after a very quick message from our sponsors.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. It's Leanne's favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottCue the jingle, Al.
Al ElliottJingle being cued.
Leanne ElliottI've got a new game. It's not a new game, actually. It's an old game. Corporate buzzword bingo.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottWe actually played this on the podcast probably 2 years ago. Yeah, so it's been, it's been long enough that we've had a new wave of workplace jargon, um, coming in. Um, so we'll circle back to, back to that, um, and pivot Like it's 2022.
Al ElliottOh, it's horrible.
Leanne ElliottI will be honest, I've completely ripped off a post I saw on LinkedIn from Christine Armstrong, plus a few brilliant suggestions in the comments from Tim Cork and Sean Jackson. So thank you to you all. You've given us a brand new bingo board. Are you ready, Al?
Al ElliottI'm ready. Hit me.
Leanne ElliottI'm going to throw out some phrases. You tell me what you think they mean, and then we'll go through the actual definitions, or at least what people think they are.
Al ElliottOkay, go ahead.
Leanne ElliottShall we double-click on that?
Al ElliottOh God. Oh, I'm cringing so bad. Double-click, uh, commit to it, maybe?
Leanne ElliottCan't close. Apparently it's, it's, it means let's explore that in more depth. Let's double-click on that. Um, it does sound a bit weird. And also, I'll be honest, and I'm not sure if there's any other geriatric millennials or Gen Xers that are with me, but do you remember American Pie? And they talked about double-clicking your own mouse. Something very different.
Al ElliottI don't remember that.
Leanne ElliottThere'll be some people out there that will know. Drop me a message and just, just say, I know.
Al ElliottWas that the One Time at Band Camp?
Emma DjemilYeah.
Al ElliottIs that American Pie? Okay. Yeah. Long time since I've seen that.
Emma DjemilAnyway.
Al ElliottAnyway.
Leanne ElliottPhase 2, precision question.
Al ElliottIt would be a cutting question or something like I would, rather than ask you, what are you doing? I might say to you, what are you doing right this minute?
Leanne ElliottYeah, but why would my, my, my, what am I, my, my, my, my, my.
Al ElliottOkay then.
Leanne ElliottYes, no, yes, but why might we ask a precision question?
Al ElliottOh, to get a precision answer? I don't know.
Leanne ElliottSo I think this is coming from like, like prompt language, like ChatGPT. The more, the more of a precise question, the more, I guess, accurate detail you're gonna get. The idea is that if we, if we ask precision questions, we're, we're gonna speed up the, the decision-making process and cut the waffle.
Al ElliottOh, I see, right, which we've not done over the last 90 seconds.
Leanne ElliottNo, absolutely not.
Al ElliottRight, okay, so I did— so a precision So the suggestion would be to get straight to the point and one-shot if we're going to use the, use the LLM.
Leanne ElliottI think so.
Al ElliottYeah. Okay. Got it. Right. Okay. Still hate it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely awful. Phase 3, pre-wire the meeting.
Al ElliottOh, just please stop coming up with these. Say it again.
Leanne ElliottPre-wire the meeting.
Al ElliottOh, is that just where you prepare for it? Or you perhaps have a Pre-meeting before the meeting?
Leanne ElliottKind of, yeah. Apparently it's checking in with key people before the meeting to make sure that they're on board, or at least aren't going to blow stuff up. Which doesn't really make sense why you'd pre-wire it, because isn't that— sounds like you're making a bomb or something.
Al ElliottYou can't say that word. Not on the airwaves.
Leanne ElliottSorry, sorry. Number 4, this one actually made me a bit sick to my stomach. Swim lane violation.
Al ElliottOh, God. Is this where someone's, let's say that they are a designer and they try and get involved in the product planning decisions and they're like, no, no, you should stay in your lane. That's a swim lane violation.
Leanne ElliottExactly.
Emma DjemilExactly.
Leanne ElliottOh my God. Stay in your lane.
Al ElliottIf anyone, if you are listening to this and you've found yourself using some of these, then a little top tip would be is to go outside and sit in the middle of a motorway.
Leanne ElliottYou can't say that either.
Al ElliottYou can't say that either. No, don't do that. Don't, don't try that.
Leanne ElliottI think I've got one more for you. N+1 thinking.
Al ElliottOh, okay. Right. I know from database querying that N+1 is when you have, you essentially do duplicate queries. So N+1 thinking, I would, I would think would be something like a, lots of people thinking about the same, the same problem and it's not helping because they're just duplicating it.
Leanne ElliottWell, it's supposed to mean, that makes sense, but it's supposed to mean thinking one step ahead. So like what comes next?
Al ElliottOh, maybe, maybe that's— yeah, that could, that could. I only know N+1 from that very specific thing, so that could be what N+1 means. If you, if you're a professor in N+1ing and you're listening, then just tell us what N+1 actually means.
Leanne ElliottI've got a few more actually.
Al ElliottOh gosh.
Leanne ElliottThese are quite obvious. Vanilla. So vanilla is just kind of something that's a bit plain, boring, basic. Yeah, exactly. I'm very vanilla.
Al ElliottYou're a vanilla podcaster. Yep, I get it.
Leanne ElliottA holistic approach.
Al ElliottOh yeah, okay.
Leanne ElliottWhich basically means that we don't really know what we're doing, but we'll be fine, we'll wing it. Let's take this offline. And as one of the comments said, I think this was actually maybe from Sian, it was like, no thanks, Sandra, I'd rather sort this out now. Yeah, it's—
Al ElliottWhat does take it offline? Does it mean we have a face-to-face?
Leanne ElliottI think it's when, you know, things start to get a bit heated in a Zoom meeting.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottI've heard lots of people like on socials, they'll like record their boss or someone in the meeting and go, should we take this offline? Or let's take that offline. As in that I don't want to have this confrontational conversation in front of everybody, or I'm probably going to tell you to fuck off offline, but I don't want to do that in front of everybody else. So yeah, there you go. That's the latest corporate lingo, which is, is really quite uncomfortable. I did, I did some light research to see why jargon pops up so often, and apparently one of the main reasons is because when people feel insecure, want to find, or want to sound more important, They'll tend to use kind of, um, this corporate jargon to be kind of in-group. I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I don't know if that's a real thing, but that's what some research said. The NeuroLeadership Institute found that jargon-heavy communication, however, does reduce clarity and make leaders seem less authentic and just a bit icky, I think, to pull in another, another little buzzword. Um, I don't know, what do you think? Harmless Al or just plain Wrong.
Al ElliottPlain wrong. I think anyone who's using— anyone who uses like jargon or complicated words, um, we, we both know someone who, um, we're not obviously not going to mention, uh, someone who's no longer in, in, in, in our circle, um, who tends to use long words to, to make themselves look quite clever. And we just know that it makes them look really stupid because they often use the word in the wrong way. Leanne's just thinking now who I, I I'll tell you offline. Let's, let's take, let's take this offline.
Leanne ElliottCan we go off camera?
Al ElliottNo, no, because if it gets caught and I forget to cut it out, then that would be a disaster.
Leanne ElliottI don't think you'll need to.
Al ElliottYou will. I'll tell you afterwards. So yeah, no, I'm not with any of this. I think just plain speak. If you are that, if you are that sort of sub— what's the word when you're not very confident? Unconfident? Disconfident? There's a proper word for it. You're lacking in confidence that much. It's going really well. Well, if you're lacking in confidence that much, then, then, you know, don't, don't go down this road of using any other words. Just be plain and simple. Some of the cleverest people I know use the simplest words.
Leanne ElliottSo before we take it offline so I can understand who Al is talking about, let's move on to you, Al. What have you seen this week?
Al ElliottWell, I came across this maybe potentially divisive LinkedIn post this week. A guy called Tom Scourfield. He's a British ghostwriter with American clients. First of all, he wrote in like Fortune magazine or something, but I had to pay a pound to get online to read it online. So I was like, no, no, no. So I just Googled the title and he actually wrote the whole thing on his, on LinkedIn anyway. So anyway, so basically he's got these American clients, he's British, got these American clients, and he sees the 2 countries, Britain and the US, as having totally different approaches to work. So Tom suggests that the UK will never catch up to America's startup ecosystem because there are 5 differences in mindset. So I'll go through these 5, see what you think, Lee. So the first one is schlep blindness. This is a term coined by Y Combinator's Paul Graham. If you like Y Combinator, you're going to love this Thursday because we've got a Y Combinator business coming up called PostHog. Anyway, and this guy will probably know Paul Graham. Anyway, anyway, I digress. I digress. According to that, according to Tom, Americans are more willing to tackle boring problems head on, whereas us Brits tend to spot flaws and reasons not to do something boring before we've even started it. So he suggests that the British are more likely to put something off.
Leanne ElliottSorry, can I just, before you carry on, is Tom American?
Al ElliottNo, Tom's British.
Leanne ElliottOh, right.
Al ElliottOkay. Tom's British. He's looking at the Brit— he's looking and he's comparing his, like the British, to his clients in America. So the idea is obviously, as we're saying, is that you, this schlep blindness is that you go, oh, well, I'm not gonna do that because it's just really boring and doesn't look like we're gonna, it's gonna be worth it. But as Tom points out, opportunity is on the other side of boring work. I don't know whether that's his Or maybe Paul Graham's phrase, but it's a cool phrase. I like that. So that was the first one. The second one is networking. Because so in America, reaching out to complete strangers— now this is Tom's words as well, I wouldn't use the word reaching out— for coffee is apparently perfectly standard practice. But in Britain, we tend to build our circles through existing connections like school, family, colleagues, that kind of thing. So as Tom puts it, talking in London, talking to strangers is illegal.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIt's a bit of an exaggeration.
Leanne ElliottI'm more of a London thing, to be honest.
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah. Tom, go to Manchester. Everyone chats to people in Manchester. If a Mancunian or a northerner goes to London, they can have a bad time because they're like, hey, what book are you reading? And then just turn around, look at you as if you're just taking a poo in their hand. Anyway, going back to Tom. So the networking, he says that Americans are much more likely to network. The 3rd reason he said was execution versus perfection. Americans apparently are more likely to test ideas quickly as possible, whereas us Brits might have a bit more pride of ownership over ideas, want them to be polished before launching. I don't know if that's necessarily an American versus British thing, but certainly I know a lot of people who are like, no, no, no, we'll get the website up and running, we'll get the business cards, we'll set the limited company up before we've even spoken to any single or one single customer. The American approach is very much done beats perfect, which according to Tom, which obviously is probably quite a good way to get quickly somewhere. That said, I don't know, is there more pride in what you ship in the UK? I don't know, maybe we're more sensitive to negative feedback, perhaps. The 4th one is there's a, there's a comfort factor. So the UK sort of normalizes striving for comfort at work, avoiding, um, confrontation, whereas American entrepreneurs apparently embrace challenge and high-pressure situations more readily. He even points out that New York's GDP is supposedly 3 times the size of London's, which he says is linked to this willingness to embrace discomfort. And finally, he argues we're playing entirely different games because British culture, at work particularly, optimises for stability and respectability, whereas American entrepreneurial culture aims for what he calls outsized impact. Tom himself obviously says that it's about being able to get what you want out of life and knowing what it takes to make it happen. We've not even started on Europe. Tom's not done any kind of— like, I know that I've seen on Twitter quite a lot of the The US can't cope with Europe, with mainland Europe. Like, what do you mean you're going for a coffee at 11 o'clock? What do you mean you're having dinner in Spain at 10:30 PM? You've got work the next morning.
Leanne ElliottWhat do you mean you're having August off?
Al ElliottYeah, exactly. One of the best things, we used to live in Spain, we lived there for about 5 years. One of the best things is in August you go to like shops and like really big prestigious shops, you have a handwritten note saying, we're off for a month, we're at the beach, don't care. So, uh, yeah, so there you go. So that's what Tom sees as the difference. Any of those resonate, Lee?
Leanne ElliottUh, there's definitely different attitudes towards work. There's different work culture. To say that it stifles innovation, I don't know. Is it not a bit of an oversimplification? Because it's not like we haven't invented stuff, like the internet. That was us.
Al ElliottTim Berners-Lee, yep.
Leanne ElliottPretty innovative.
Al ElliottHe invented penicillin, he invented the locomotive.
Leanne ElliottYeah, Concorde. We won that race.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, stick it to you, you French. Uh, yeah, actually we did it with the French, I think, in that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, no, we did. We stick it to the Americans and the, uh, the Russians. Yeah, no, French too, we did it together.
Al ElliottOkay, Leanne, what else have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottWell, speaking of, um, of a large nation causing global instability, um, there has been a bit of a pickle the last 10 days or so. Not going to talk about it, um, but global recession is a word that's been, been thrown around. Um, it is escalating in terms of possibility, probability. Um, but my more interest was what, what happens to the people when there's an economic crisis, and how do we motivate our teams when it all just feels like we're all kind of bracing ourselves for, for impact? So I came across a bit of research published in 2024 asking what really motivates employees in economic crisis. So yeah, pretty timely. It was published by the Journal of Occupational and Organizational Psychology, and the study looked at employee motivation during the, um, prolonged economic crisis in Greece, specifically in its banking sector, which is one of the hardest-hit industries at the time. So the researchers surveyed 328 employees to understand what really kept them going during years of financial chaos and job insecurity. And here's the standout finding: Non-financial incentives were the most powerful motivators.
Al ElliottInteresting.
Leanne ElliottMore than money, more than job security. So we're talking things like recognition that we talked about last week, Al, empowerment, opportunities for advancement. Employees reported that being trusted to make decisions, appreciated for their contributions, and offered a path to grow made a bigger difference to their motivation than financial rewards. Alone. The researchers use structural equation modelling, which is just a fancy way of saying they looked at the data and linked motivation not just to individual feelings, but to actual job performance and organisational effectiveness. And this is the thing we don't, we don't talk about enough when we, when we see these things on, on LinkedIn. It, it's all about the impact on performance and effectiveness. You know, I might not be as hustly as my American counterpart, but I might equally high-performing and effective? That is the important question. So what was found clear in this, um, study was that motivated employees didn't just feel better, they worked better, and that had a measurable impact on how well the business performed. Now don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean that money doesn't matter. Of course it does, especially now when inflation is still high and wage growth is slow. But the takeaway here is that culture can carry you when cash So, if you're a leader facing some financial constraints, then this study does offer a clear research-backed strategy. Make sure your people feel seen, valued, and give them some control over how they work and maybe where they work. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. I think that's the whole point, isn't it? If you've got control over what you're working on, you enjoy it, and it feels worthwhile, there's almost like nothing else you need to do. Um, you know, like, well, obviously there's the 6-7 thing you do because that's the RX-7, which Leanne developed. But, but essentially it's all about the, the idea of do you own your work? Like, we, we, I'm talking about James again, we've got on this Thursday, but, um, such an interesting way to build an organization where everybody owns the project because they're only tiny teams, 2, 3, 4 people. Everyone owns the project, everyone knows what they're doing, they've got full control, um, and weirdly nobody gets paid anymore. Like the team leader in that, in those teams, don't get paid more. They just get, everyone gets paid the same. So it just proves your point, I think.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's not the first study that's shown that non-financial rewards can be really impactful on employee performance and motivation and wellbeing. There is, of course, some limitations to this specific study. It was in Greece, and yes, it was in the financial services. Different industries might see different patterns. But the broader insight is hard to ignore, and the key takeaway really is when the economy gets tough, how you treat your people matters more than ever.
Al ElliottI love it. I love it. Okay, so I think that's wrapping up for today. Um, after this very, very short break, we're back with a hot take from Emma Djemil. Am I saying her name right?
Leanne ElliottDjemil.
Al ElliottDjemil. Emma Djemil. She's an experienced HR professional and coach, and she has got a spicy take. So we'll see you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. As regular listeners will know, every week we ask a workplace expert for their hot take on the world of work. Today's hot take comes from Emma Djemil, an experienced HR professional, coach, and the founder of the HR Big Meet. After 20 years working in HR herself, Emma now helps women in the profession find clarity, confidence, and the courage to build careers that actually work for them, not just the people around them. Her work is also about making space for the real conversations about being overworked, undervalued, and unsure what comes next, and supporting women to take bold, sustainable steps forward. She's down to earth, practical, very funny, and deeply passionate about helping others feel seen and supported Okay, let's go and join Leanne and Emma Djemil and hear a hot take.
Emma DjemilMy name is Emma Djemil, and I'm the founder of a company called Be Unstoppable. My work is helping women in HR get unstuck and move forward in their careers fearlessly. And I'm most famous, probably, before putting out daft stuff on LinkedIn, via TikTok. dancing in my living room. But really what I'm doing is having a go at some of the things that I've experienced and I still observe in the workplace, just in a humorous way. But aside from that, my work with Women in HR, my event, the HR Big Meet, they'd be the things that probably people know me most for.
Leanne ElliottLet's dive straight in, Emma. What is your hot take?
Emma DjemilMy hot take is, um, if your business as usual is making people sick or cry or unhappy, then your business as usual is the problem. This hot take is born from my work both as an HR professional, so I've, um, been in HR my whole career, um, and also the work that I do these days supporting women in HR. So, women in HR come to me for coaching, and a lot of the time, they have— they're dealing with a kind of lack of confidence because for their whole career, they've been told really, they don't know what they're talking about. Everyone knows HR. HR's not that hard. And when they have reached out for help, Which they do sometimes, believe me, it takes a long time before they do. They've been told, well, it's just, this is just how it is. HR is just a tough gig working here in this organisation. We work at pace. We're doing all this stuff. We're growing at pace. Then, and so if you can't cope, then there must be something wrong with you. And it's you that needs to do something about it. So, my hot take really is born from that frustration that when— what I have observed in my profession, what I observe now is that people who say how it really is in their organizations, people who ask for help are often sidelined or pigeonholed or put into a bracket of they can't cope or they're difficult.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Emma DjemilOr they can't hack it, and it's, and the problem is with them. And what I'm saying is, um, no, I don't think that's the truth. In fact, I know that's not the truth. And your BAU is the problem. Because by placing the problem at the door of the person who's, who's coming to you and asking for help, you are probably ignoring the fact that actually that person is pulled in a million directions. They've not been given clear instructions about what you really want from them.
Al ElliottYeah.
Emma DjemilThey rarely get any feedback. They, the business actually doesn't have a strategy. Growth isn't a strategy. And they're under-resourced. They don't have the IT systems. You're asking them to do too much work. That's the BAU that they're operating within. And if that is the BAU that they're operating within, then saying that the problem is that they can't cope.
Al ElliottYeah.
Emma DjemilIs, is completely wrong and your BAU is, um, is the problem.
Leanne ElliottI guess my question is, and because you've worked in HR for, for all your career, you would have worked with lots of leaders, high-flying leaders. Are they just a different breed of human? Do they have something else about them, or are they masking their struggles in a way that means they get ahead?
Emma DjemilWhat's going on there? As a HR professional, you're managing behaviour. All the time, whether it's a leader or it's a member of a team. And I was like, well, what better way to understand behavior than neuroscience? Like literally what's going on in our brain to create that behavior. And there was a study that showed that when you give people power over decisions that affect other people, that their brain circuitry switches from like a people-focused circuitry to a getting-the-task-done-focused circuitry. So, for me, that's really interesting because I'm like, unless you're a really self-aware leader who understands this is what's going on in your brain, potentially you're becoming completely switched off to the needs of people around you. But anything that then threatens our perception of ourself. So, someone telling us that something that we've done, or the way that we've set up our workplace as leaders, is impacting on them negatively, we're potentially less— we're going to be like, well, that's a threat to who I think I am. So, the problem can't be me, it must be this other person. So, I think I've gone slightly off track actually from your question, which is, are leaders a As some kind of superhuman. I don't think so. I just think when we potentially, when we're in leadership positions, we become less aware of how the experience of our workplace differs for the other people around us. And that means that we're like, well, we can cope, we can do all this without appreciating we have the control, we have the knowledge, we know what's coming up down the line. We just have a different experience of the workplace compared to the people that we're managing, not through any ill will of our own, but just because that's how it is as humans. So, our job then as leaders is to say, A, to have the humility and the vulnerability to be able to say, I don't know everything, which is tough again, because in leadership we're told we're meant to know all the answers. And also to reflect and say, hey, yeah, I know I'm a nice person, but actually some of the ways that I'm being might not be having great outcomes for people, or some of the decisions that I'm making might not be received with the intent that I'm making them. And therefore, what do I need to do? That takes like a level of self-awareness that I don't see often in leadership. And that's going to threaten people listening, I'm sure, because they'll be like, well, I listen. Do you though? Like, I think we overcomplicate stuff, right? So I think what we could, if we, if we were just to simplify it completely, what we would be thinking about is, how do I want other people to experience me? So we would be setting standards for how we want other people to experience their time with us. And, and In setting those standards, then we'd be reflecting daily, did I meet the standards that I've set for myself? And not just do I think that I've done that, but have I reached out to other people to check in and confirm that they've had the experience of me that I intended? So there is, for me, that's a constant seeking of feedback and it has to be matched with—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Emma DjemilA willingness to actually listen because we'll listen to the good stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, great. I had a great experience of you. Actually listening to someone when they say to you, actually, this is, this is what, this is how I felt as a result of what you were saying. This is what I would have preferred. This is what could have been different for me. Listening to that, taking that in without the defensiveness.
Al ElliottYeah.
Emma DjemilAnd then doing something to, um, to change your behavior sounds really simple, but again, because we get our, our ego gets threatened, it's actually a lot harder, um, in real life. So, um, it, for me, it does come down to self-awareness. What, like I say, what experience do you want other people to have of you? Checking in with people and then.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Emma DjemilGenuinely listening and, um, not being defensive. I genuinely think coaching is, is, should be essential for anyone in a leadership position. Um, because coaching gives the space where you can go, and then kind of get to the bottom of what's really going on for you. And the more that you can understand what's really going on for you, I just think that the better you are as a leader, the happier you are as a leader. The happier people are around you. Um, yeah. Yeah. So it's not, for me, that's not BAU as such. It's how we're reacting to the feedback we're getting about it. I've always thought that's a fundamental thing, particularly more so these days. Now I coach all the time. I have been coached. I have a better understanding of myself. I just, like I say, for me, I have a, I have, I have a happier experience of the world. Because I understand that what I'm telling myself isn't necessarily the truth. And that, and that for me gets in the way of so much in our workplaces. It stops so much connection because we're telling ourselves that someone's difficult. We're telling ourselves that someone's awkward, that they're interpreting what we're saying incorrectly. All they're doing is taking their external stimulus and translating it into something that makes sense for them. And if we can just understand that at a very kind of basic core level, That we're all human. Being human is all we've got these days. Like, with AI and technology, being human is the only thing that we've got.
Al ElliottWell, that was Emma Djemil. What stood out to me was how Emma doesn't blame people for struggling. She points to the environments they're actually working in, because most of the time, you see, it's not that someone can't cope, it's they're being asked to carry far too much with far too little support.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and that is especially true for people in HR, and I'm not sure we really think about this enough. You know, they're expected to hold everyone else's emotions while staying neutral and professional and never really, you know, showing that they're struggling themselves. And when they do reach breaking point, as Emma said, it can be framed as weakness. But if we think about the stress here, it's not just work stress, it's emotional labor, it's vicarious trauma. HR professionals are often on the receiving end of employees' grief or burnout or bullying complaints or mental health crises, all of it has an effect. And actually, according to the British Psychological Society, people in HR often experience secondary trauma symptoms. So, things like sleep disruption, heightened anxiety, emotional exhaustion. It's the cost of being that buffer between people and pain, and it, and it does add up very quickly.
Al ElliottYeah, it's almost like, who is the HR's HR? You know, I think If someone in HR does speak up and say, this is tough, they're often labeled as difficult or too emotional. It's almost like the system asks you to care for everyone else, but punishes you for needing to look after yourself. And this is where training leaders and managers is so, so important. Like Emma said, human is all we've got.
Leanne ElliottI can't, I can't emphasize Emma's point enough. If you're a leader and you don't have a coach, you're missing out on an incredible opportunity in terms of your development, but also in terms of managing your emotional load and your stress levels. Invest in coaching. We'll leave all the links for, for Emma in the show notes if, if you want to reach out to her for coaching, or you can get in touch with us as well. Not to mention, if that conversation did hit home for you, if you are in HR or HR adjacent, Emma isn't just talking about change in HR, she's actually building the stage for it. So, on the 16th of May this year, so just a few weeks away, she is hosting the HR Big Meet in central London. It's day dedicated to amplifying the voices of women in HR, celebrating the profession, and giving us all the space to speak honestly about the realities that we're facing. It isn't your typical HR event. Emma calls it the Glastonbury of HR, and honestly, she's not wrong. It's not strategy, decks, policy, all that boring stuff. It's about you, your experience, your voice, and your right to be heard and supported and celebrated in a profession that often expects so much from you. And particularly in terms of holding it all together. Tickets are available now at thehrbigmeet.com. They start at £199 if you're booking as a group of 3 or more. And if you're in a position to support somebody else, you can also buy a pay-it-forward ticket for a woman in HR who might be at work or facing tough circumstances at the moment. Emma and her team will make sure it goes to someone who truly needs it. So to find out more, head to thehrbigmeet.com. Or connect with Emma Djemil on LinkedIn. Just search Emma Djemil. That's D-J-E-M-I-L. And of course, all the links are in the show notes.
Al ElliottAnd just to be clear, that's big meet as in we're meeting someone, not meat as in I'm doing the barbecue.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottBecause I mean, the Big Meat London does sound like a great event. Get myself a tomahawk stalk. Tomahawk stalk? Tomahawk steak. Anyway, talking of needing help. This is the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery time. Yeah, so this is where I put your questions to Leanne. We've got the first one here, which says, why does quitting feel easier than speaking up? So I'm going to read this verbatim. Paul, a trade unionist, often comes across workers who are reluctant to challenge their employers, even when they have little to lose or in a strong position. For example, they might work in a sector which has labour shortages. Despite having little to lose, some of these workers often look to change employer or even change profession rather than challenge the employer. What are the psychological barriers that prevent workers from challenging bad management practice or improving workplace cultures? How do we overcome these barriers both individually and collectively? Lee, this sounds like someone who knows a little bit about a little bit about a little bit, doesn't it? What are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottVery good question, and obviously one that We could probably spend 2 hours talking about. But the, the crux of that question, why does quitting feel easier than speaking up? Because for a lot of people, it just feels safer. When people don't feel like they have power or agency, even if they're working in a sector with, um, staff shortages, speaking up can still feel really risky. You don't want to be seen as that troublemaker. You don't want to get—
Emma DjemilYeah.
Leanne Elliottleft out, miss out on opportunities. You don't want to be the next person to get pushed out. There's always a chance you won't get another job as quickly. Um, I've heard of some industries having blacklists of employees that they'll pass around. It can be— yeah, it can be really quite dark out there. Um, there's also a case as well that I think often people will see other people speak up and then have that punishment, or, or they're being ignored, or, you know, you just kind of think, why would I put myself in that position, what's the point? Um, so I don't think it's about confidence or, or not caring enough. I think it is about that self-preservation, and that is essentially what happens when an organization doesn't have psychological safety. It's that feeling, um, to have psychological safety is to feel that you can speak honestly at work without being judged or punished. So I think typically the majority of people aren't experiencing psychological safety at work, and the data pretty much shows us that. Um, that is the case, largely speaking. I think as well, what, what might be a case here, if we're, if we're, and again, sweeping generalisations, but if we're talking about, um, sectors that might have, um, high numbers of job vacancies, typically we might see younger workers in these types of roles. And if we think about Gen Z especially, who have come into the workplace during COVID or just after, They haven't had the chance to build relationships. They haven't had the chance to, to learn those soft skills, um, that help you speak up. We know this is, again, from the research is showing us that there is— that this is a skills gap in Gen Z at the moment. So things like setting boundaries, giving feedback, challenging behavior, having uncomfortable conversations, that skill set isn't very well developed. So again, quitting is just going to feel simpler. Um, so yeah, there's a few broad reasons why, um, psychological safety being a main one, and then having, yeah, the, the capability and confidence to, to speak up. It's interesting that you're from a trade union because I think unions—
Al ElliottYeah, I was about to say this.
Leanne ElliottUnions could be a part of this solution, particularly as organisations are getting more and more um, demanding of people. So like the RTO mandates and the, you know, rollbacks on EDI things, that this could be a time where unions really come back in. Um, we've not seen— you know, we've seen pay freezes. The problem is many people, especially younger workers, don't really know what unions do.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottUm, I don't mean that to be disrespectful in any way. It's just a bit of a gap in In understanding. So, I think it's something like kind of 5 to 7% of workers in the UK in that age group, so kind of under 24, are in a union. That's compared to probably maybe like 25 to 30% who are over 50. So, it's a big gap. So, we're not looking at a small difference. We're looking at essentially entire 2 generations.
Emma DjemilYeah.
Leanne ElliottThat have grown up with less understanding of unions, less access to unions, fewer unionised workplaces. I can't tell you how many executives I've worked with whose main achievements have been that they've de-unionised their workplace. That was a big push from the private sector over the last 10 to 15 years. So, again, it's not that younger people don't care or they're not into fairness, because they absolutely are. It's just that if unions aren't visible, they're not relatable or aren't present.
Emma DjemilYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, for young people, then it's just not on their radar and they're not gonna be able to lean into it. I mean, I think if you are listening and thinking that you're not really sure what trade union does, very simply, trade union is a group of workers who stick together and have each other's back. Um, so fair pay, better conditions, um, support if something goes wrong at work. You would have famously heard about the junior doctor strike in the UK.
Emma DjemilYeah.
Leanne ElliottThat was very much union-led and supported. You might have a union, your workplace might have a union, in which case you can speak to your rep. If not, you can still join one that covers your job or your industry. I will leave a link. There's a government website that has a whole list on them. So, quite a long and rambling answer there, but I think in terms of what we could do as older workers to support our young people in speaking up, is one, train your managers so they can provide this psychological safety, they can provide feedback channels for people. Be visible, you know, even just walk if you're a senior manager, just having a little, if you have an office, having a little walk around, having a cup of tea with people, you know, jumping into the Zoom team meeting, it can really make a difference just to say hello and be a friendly face. I think in terms of unions, if you're a union rep, We need some education here. We need some understanding and myth-busting in terms of what unions aren't and are and how they can support people. I think just very simply, if we can train our people who might have some of these skills gaps around confidence in terms of communication and show them the right way to have those difficult conversations, then it could help. As well. So, there's lots of different reasons there, but I think the bottom line really is that people just don't quite feel safe enough to speak up. As leaders, we need to do better in terms of providing that psychological safety in those feedback channels. And I think for unions, there's a big opportunity in terms of a massive education piece for young people to know they have that support option available to them.
Al ElliottOkay, question number 2, Leanne, and I'm going to apologise to everyone. in advance because I'm going to use some Gen Z language here and it's going to be so cringey, we'll have to take it offline. Okay, so this person writes, it's no cap, my boss hates how I type. So this person writes, it says, I'm 24 and recently I've noticed my older colleagues, which are Gen X and boomers, getting increasingly irritated about how I communicate at work. Apparently my emails are too casual and my Slack messages are incomprehensible. Kind of. Yeah, I've read some Gen Z stuff and I don't really understand it. Here's the thing. I'm just communicating the way I always do. I send a quick Y instead of typing yes. I use emojis to express tone, and I keep messages super brief because who has the time to write paragraphs? My manager, who's about 45, must seem ancient to you. That's young compared to me. Actually pulled me aside last week after I responded to a project request with— They've written bet and then they've done the emoji of that kind of emoji.
Leanne ElliottLike the peace.
Al ElliottYeah. So basically this person, this, the manager said, can you do this? And they went bet like that. And I would've gone, what? And this manager said, asked if I was being sarcastic. I wasn't. I literally means I'm gonna do it. One of the older guys replied with a formal paragraph asking me to communicate in standard English. Everyone thinks it's funny, but the seriousness is, do I change or should I expect them to change?
Leanne ElliottChange. I'm not— they need to check. The thing is, right, you're— I understand this is your preference in terms of communication, but in this context, you're not being understood. Your communication is ineffective, and that is alienating you, causing barriers within your team, and making everybody's job harder. So it really doesn't matter if that's your preference. The point is you—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYou're not being understood, and this is communication within a work context. I'm sure over time, language will continue to get more and more casual. It has just in the time that I've been working. But being informal is different to being not understood. And I think in this, in this scenario, it's really important that you take on board that feedback that your managers are giving you. And it sounds like they're trying to do it patiently as well.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottEmo— what are they called?
Emma DjemilEmojis.
Leanne ElliottI understand I use emojis and stuff, but equally, like, I mean, we've just had that— what was it called? That Adolescence on Netflix. Emojis don't always mean the same thing to the same people. They can mean very different things.
Al ElliottYes, exactly. If we— yeah, if you're having eggplant for dinner tonight, do not use that emoji.
Leanne ElliottI had no— I was, I was like mind blown. I was texting my friend— hi, Alec— being like, this is, this is insane. This is unreal. This is Frightening. Who knew kids were having these conversations just via emoji? I still don't really understand the incel thing, but—
Al ElliottI don't understand any of it.
Leanne ElliottUm, I think this is quite, this is quite simple. Crack on if that's your preference with your, with your friends who understand it. Maybe if you've got some colleagues who find it funny and you're interested, teach them a little bit about it. Um, or maybe you can kind of go, um, put in some little translations if it feels appropriate. So rather than like bet, Um, you know, and the little piece, which probably isn't a piece, is it? It's probably, probably calling it something else.
Al ElliottProbably something really dirty.
Leanne ElliottYou know, putting, putting brackets like, you bet, or something like that. You know, you're not being understood, and fundamentally that makes you not very effective at your job and puts you at risk.
Al ElliottSo, so here's a little, um, corollary here. The corollary is not probably the right word, but here's a thought. If you, if this person is listening to you, they might go, yes, but I've been told I can bring my whole self to work, and my whole self is sending emojis. So what would you say to that, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottAgain, I think there's a difference between bringing your whole self to work and not being effective. You know, it's your whole self. Yeah, but it's, it's not, we're not saying that you can't be a Gen Z. It's not saying that in conversations you can't say bet or cap or, and you have a laugh and somebody old like me will go, what does that mean? That's not to say you can't do that, but in written communications, Your only aim is to be understood. I don't see how that preference would attack your identity necessarily. Maybe I've got somebody that would be shouting at me for saying that, but I'm not sure that is an attack on your identity. Fundamentally, you're not effectively communicating at work, and that's a problem.
Al ElliottYeah, I like it. I like it. I think it's like, I think we chat to Luke. Hello, Luke, if you're listening. And Luke's like, no, he won't be. And And quite often I'll send a huge long message and he'll just reply K, literally the letter K. And I'm like, at first I was like, what the hell? I've just written all this stuff out. But then he pointed out when he saw him last, he was like, no, no, that's just been going, yeah, cool. Okay. Get it. So, uh, yeah, I think we all, we all need to be a little bit more, um, we need to be a little bit nicer to each other. But as Leanne says, this is a, this is a serious issue that, you know, as they say, AITA, am I the asshole? Yes, you are perhaps at this, in this one. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottI think, as I said, there's a difference between like if you're asked to be overly formal, then I'd be like, yeah, that's really annoying, isn't it? But it's, yeah, it's communicating to be understood. Of course, you haven't mentioned that there's any, any reasons that this might be why you communicate that way. For example, if you've got dyslexia or other kind of challenges with reading and writing, you didn't mention any of that. So I'm going to assume that there's none of that. Should there be, then yes, this is about reasonable adjustments, but There'll be other ways to do it rather than ways that, yeah, are being misunderstood by colleagues. So, if there is an element of that, then you should actually absolutely talk to your manager and find some compromises of how to make this work.
Al ElliottYeah. And you could potentially look at voice notes as well, if that is your thing. Okay, lovely. Thank you, Leanne. Question number 3, I've got 30 employees and zero HR policies. Is this a ticking time bomb?
Emma DjemilGotcha.
Al ElliottNow we've had a few similar to this, but I wanted to bring it back because I think that it asks a really interesting question. So, our startup is about to hit 30 employees. I'm suddenly panicking about HR. Being honest, we've been flying by the seat of our pants since day one, but last week someone casually mentioned we might need proper HR policies now, and some of the other staff nodded like this was obvious to everyone but me. Until now, we've managed with a basic employment contract, they said, downloaded from the internet, if I'm being honest. And a Google Doc of office guidelines no one's really updated in months. At what point do we need to start worrying about formal HR processes and workplace culture? Do we need a proper HR person?
Emma DjemilYes.
Leanne ElliottNo, no, you need proper HR policies. At what point do you need to start thinking about HR? When you make your first hire. When you have employee number 1, you need to be thinking about these things. There's legal obligations you have to do as a lawyer in terms of certain policies and ways of working and health and safety and There's, there's so many things that HR does and the policies that you need to protect yourself and protect your people. In terms of, do you need an HR person? Not necessarily, no. I think I'd— if you're really starting from scratch on this, I think it would be a big ask to try and hand this off to like an ops director, which we see quite typically. My thought would be just talk to an outsourced HR company like Curve Group that we spoke to.
Emma DjemilYeah.
Leanne ElliottThe other day, who else have we spoke to? Charlie HR?
Al ElliottCharlie HR, yeah, that's a really, that's a self-serve platform. It's, um, I think it's about £40 a month or something. It's not expensive.
Leanne ElliottYeah, there's loads out there. They're varying, um, approaches and intensity and quality and price. But yeah, that would be my first thought because you're gonna probably need, and I think, I think really probably an outsource. My leaning would be to an outsource. 30 people is quite a large team at this point. It sounds like you're continuing to grow. My thought would be if you can engage an outsourced HR team, they're going to put all of this in place for you. They're going to put all the lovely frameworks and the bones of it in. It might be that you need that intensity for a short time and then you can manage it yourself with, with something else. Um, but that would be my thought because there's going to be everything from, from equality to recruitment to holiday policy to flexible working. There's so many new laws that have just come in. As well, in terms of, of all that. There's going to be maternity and paternity and health and safety, and oh my gosh, there's so many. I'd be, I'd be very— sigh of relief that nothing has happened that you could be liable for and in a very tricky situation. Um, and get on to an outsourced HR function like now. Like, stop this and go do it now.
Al ElliottYeah, we'll wait. Yeah, just pause the podcast, go, go and, uh, Don't do that. I think there is, there's sometimes a lot of people confuse the idea of Chief People Officer and Chief HR Officer. So, I think it might be useful just for you to clarify. They need an HR person, but do they necessarily need a workplace culture specialist like you right now?
Leanne ElliottYes, I would say if your organisation is probably hitting like 15 to 20+, then yeah, it's always worth starting to look at things around The processes we use to recruit people, the processes that we use to engage people and to train people. But you're going to know if that's a problem if you're— if you have a high turnover, struggling to get talent in, if it takes you ages to fill an empty role, if you've got people going off sick, there's going to be signs like this that shows it's probably time to think about more of kind of a strategy side in terms of people and culture. What we're actually talking about here is human resources, and I think at this point, the urgency is around the actual legal obligations you have as an employer in terms of systems, processes, structures within your organisation. So, get that right first, and then we might want to talk about people and culture.
Al ElliottFabulous. Thank you very much, and I hope that that was useful. Sorry, I've got an itchy ear. Um, hope that was— that's only the people on YouTube are going to see me scratching my ear. I could have kept that quiet. Uh, yeah, so I hope that was useful. If you have a question that you want me to put to Leanne, then all the notes, all the things are in the show notes, the links and stuff and the emails and all that. Um, or I mean, we never had a voice note before. That would be cool.
Leanne ElliottIt would be cool, wouldn't it?
Al ElliottYeah, if you can record it. If so, if you do want to do that, just email us and I'll give you my WhatsApp number and then you can do it on LinkedIn.
Leanne ElliottWe send voice notes on LinkedIn.
Al ElliottYeah, I'd rather that than giving some random idea. What's that?
Leanne ElliottSome random listener, my telephone number.
Al ElliottHow rude. Yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry about that. No, you're not random, you're beautiful. You're all beautiful. So that is everything for this week. Join us next Tuesday for another edition of This Week in Work. And, uh, as I've said before, keep looking at our YouTube channel. We're starting to mess around with it a little bit more. Well, actually, I say we, Leanne is. Um, we've been doing it for about 2 years, putting the podcast, the video podcast, on the YouTube channel. I've not got huge amounts of traction, and I understand, because if you don't know who we are, you're not going to suddenly sit and watch 45 5 minutes of us. Uh, but it's— but Leanne's been doing cutting down the little bits and, you know, the surgery questions and all that. Starting to get a little bit of traction there. Would love your feedback. If you think it's rubbish, tell us.
Leanne ElliottYeah, tell us. If you like hearing stories about how people are doing really cool things, you'll like our Thursday episodes. That's where we interview some pretty cool people. This week we have James Hawkins, co-founder of PostHog, who's challenging everything we think we know about team structures. James believes small teams of no more than 6 people who have complete autonomy are the secret to happy and productive workplaces.
Al ElliottYeah, as we mentioned before, James started in the famous Y Combinator, uh, which if you look at the alumni of the Y Combinator, oh my goodness, there's just the biggest companies in the world come through Y. So in PostHog, there is no hierarchy, there's no politics, no middle managers, and team leads don't even get paid anymore. I mean, it does sound chaotic, but they're scaling rapidly. Going from 80 to 190 people this year alone. So is this the future of work or is this just startup madness? We'll find out.
Leanne ElliottWe will find out. Join us on Thursday and, and yeah, we'll, we'll unpack it. We'll circle back. We'll make sure we stay in our swim lane and no cap, it'll all be fine.
Al ElliottNow you're welcome, listeners, to take this offline now. We're gonna go. See you soon.
Emma DjemilBye.
Al ElliottBye-bye.
Leanne ElliottAnd spoiler alert! Spoiler alert!
Al ElliottAnd we're going to start off with one we've got here.
Leanne ElliottAs opposed to one we've got over there.
Al ElliottYes. That was such a weak segue. Okay.