Episode 194 · 6 May 2025 · 52:54

Secret jobs, leadership mic drops and Spotify's remote gamble. PLUS! The case for gossip at work, - This Week in Work, 6th May 2025

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Klopp to Slot: A masterclass in leadership succession
news roundup#leadership #succession #sports
Spotify's 'we hire adults' approach to remote work
news roundup#remote-work #spotify #adult-hiring
The rise of polygamous workers: fraud or frustration?
news roundup#polygamous-workers #fraud #workplace-frustration
Hot Take: Rebecca Taylor on why gossip can be good for work
hot take#gossip #workplace-culture #hot-take
Workplace Surgery: How to run a wellness challenge people actually want
workplace surgery#wellness #employee-engagement #challenges
Workplace Surgery: Starting over after business failure
workplace surgery#business-failure #career-restart #resilience
Workplace Surgery: HR and return-to-office mandates
workplace surgery#return-to-office #hr #mandates

Show notes

Secret Jobs, Leadership Mic Drops & Spotify's Remote Gamble — This Week in Work

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the rise of "polygamous workers" secretly juggling multiple jobs, why Liverpool's leadership handover is a masterclass in succession planning, and how Spotify's "we hire adults" approach is defying the return-to-office trend. Plus, a hot take on why gossip at work isn't just inevitable — it might be essential.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Klopp, Slot and a Masterclass in Succession Planning Leanne unpacks Liverpool's near-perfect leadership handover and what it teaches businesses about humility, legacy, and culture. From Jürgen Klopp's emotional farewell to Arne Slot's respectful entry, this is what letting go and moving on looks like when it's done right — no ego, full support, and a clear handover of the crown. Watch Klopp's farewell →

2. Spotify's "We Hire Adults" Approach to Remote Work Al breaks down Spotify's work-from-anywhere policy, why it's defying the office-return trend, and how trust is paying off in retention and revenue. While other tech giants are mandating returns, Spotify's HR chief is doubling down on flexibility — and the attrition statistics speak for themselves. Read more →

3. The Rise of Polygamous Workers Leanne explores The Times' report on workers secretly juggling multiple full-time contracts — sometimes using AI to get through the workday. But is this fraud, or frustration? The National Fraud Initiative found over half a million pounds in overpaid salaries in just a few London boroughs, yet the psychological contract between employers and employees has shifted dramatically since remote work became the norm. Read more →

🔥 Hot Take: Rebecca Taylor on Gossip at Work

Rebecca Taylor, co-founder of SkillCycle and host of HR Confessions, argues that gossip isn't just inevitable — it's essential. She explains why leaders should stop ignoring informal conversations and instead use them to strengthen culture, improve transparency, and drive change.

Al and Leanne dig into the psychology of gossip: the difference between toxic gossip and community-protecting information sharing, why salary gossip exposed pay inequities, and how to turn gossip into productive feedback.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

Wellness challenges: "How do I run a wellness challenge people actually want to join?" Leanne's advice: start with the objective, not the activity. And maybe skip the celery.
Starting over: "Is it possible to start over after my business fails?" Al shares his own story of going bankrupt in 2005 — £103,000 in debt — and how he rebuilt.
Return-to-office: "HR is making me the bad guy over return-to-office — what should I do?" The reframe: HR people are usually under pressure too. They're not out to get you.

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

🎧 Coming Up Thursday

We're joined by Dr. Sarah Hughes, CEO of Mind, for a conversation on serious mental illness, prevention, and why real culture change — not perks — makes the difference.

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript

Al ElliottComing up on This Week in Work, fraud, deception, or just a sign of the times? As more workers secretly hold down 2 or 3 full-time jobs, we ask, is this about greed or survival in an economy which is pushing people to the very, very edge?

Leanne ElliottAnd I promise this isn't about football. This could be one of the best leadership successions we've ever seen. Liverpool's handover from Klopp to slot, avoided the usual chaos, and this week delivered a Premier League title. Have we just witnessed a masterclass in succession? And why do so many organisations get it wrong?

Al ElliottAnd in this week's Workplace Surgery, when your business collapses, can you really rebuild? One listener asks how to start again when their company, their confidence, and their future are all on the line.

Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.

Al ElliottAnd my name is Al, and I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures. We'll get straight into today's episode right after a quick word from our sponsors.

Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets. Which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. It's Leanne's favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup.

Leanne ElliottYes, it is. Cue that jingle, Al.

Al ElliottBeing cued. Leanne, I'm guessing you've seen some stuff this week. Has there anything happened in the sporting world?

Leanne ElliottWell, well, yes, yes, there has. And in the past week, that's something, uh, that happened gave us a near-perfect example of what the science says great leadership looks like, and specifically leadership transitions. Now, before I lose any Man City fans, any United fans, yes, I'm going to talk about Liverpool. I am a Liverpool fan, but this isn't about football. It's certainly, Al, certainly not about the fact that Gary Neville himself admitted that Liverpool's Premier League win now means they are the biggest and most successful club in England. It's not about that.

Al ElliottShe got so excited.

Leanne ElliottSo excited.

Al ElliottLeave my microphones out of this.

Leanne ElliottNo, this is about leadership transitions and, and I guess the psychology of letting go and moving on. Um, so how leaders step aside, protect team morale, and leave a culture that survives without them. Here's a quick reminder of what happened and to fill you in if you have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about— soccer to our American listeners. So in May 2024, Jurgen Klopp stood on the Anfield pitch for the last time as Liverpool manager, but instead of making it about himself, he did something truly remarkable. He said change was good. He reminded everyone that Liverpool is bigger than one person, even him, and he encouraged the fans to back Arne Slot, the new manager, by singing this.

Al ElliottSo I'm going to play here a YouTube, YouTube video, but if you've— if it doesn't hear— if it's not here, then it means there's been copyright issues. So I mean, we'll link to it below.

Leanne ElliottIt was the perfect setup for a healthy and effective leadership transition. There was no ego, there was full support for the next chapter, a clear message that the culture must outlive any individual. So then we fast forward to May 2025. I think it was April actually, um, but Arne Slot has unbelievably just led Liverpool to their first Premier League title since 2020. And what does he do in his moment of glory? He drops a mic. He thanks Klopp, not just privately, publicly, on the pitch, in front of the fans, singing the very same song that Klepp led the year before.

Al ElliottIt feels great, uh, but I don't think I want to say a lot.

Leanne ElliottThe only thing I can do now is send my appreciation to Jürgen. So there we go. So yeah, a very rare, powerful moment I think every football fan, apart from possibly United fans, would appreciate. And psychology helps us understand exactly why this approach to leadership transition worked. First of all, we can't underestimate the importance and effectiveness of succession planning when it's done right. Research shows that outgoing leaders who validate their successor's success and protect trust, reduce uncertainty, and maintain cultural strength. And secondly, humility strengthens transition. So both Klopp and Slot showed unbelievable levels of humility, not competing for credit, sharing it. And this behavior is linked to stronger, more resilient teams. Finally, leadership isn't about leaving a legacy of high performance, it's about leaving a culture. And the real test isn't how good things are while you're there, it's how good they are after you've gone. And at Liverpool, that culture not only survived, it flourished. Respect, gratitude, low ego, a shared identity, a shared reason that carried through change. So if you are leading a team today, the real question isn't how successful am I right now, it's how strong will this team be when I'm no longer here? Al, thoughts?

Al ElliottWell done. Congratulations to all Liverpool fans. I'm like a weekend Liverpool fan. I like watching football, but I don't really follow anyone, so Obviously my wife's team won, so yeah, cool. I'm up for that. Um, I'm a little bit perturbed by the idea of a clop slot. It's a bit like, you know, just don't bend down too, too much, love. You might see, they might see a clop slot. Anyway, should we take that out? Told you I was creepy. I don't, this is gonna sound weird to bring it back to our own RX-71 that Leanne designed, but a lot of the stuff in there, sort of recognition we talked about recently, there's a lot of fan recognition, there's recognition of the team. All of the, all of the Rs seem to map perfectly to their team, to the, um, the Liverpool team that have won. So, uh, yeah, it's fantastic.

Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think reason is the key one here, particularly in terms of maintaining that level of engagement and performance. I mean, research has shown time and time again that when leaders can embed this strong shared sense of purpose, this reason, then it's this that explicitly reinforces Um, everything culture, culture-related during transitions, so employees stay more committed, more motivated, and more resilient. So yeah, Klopp wasn't just handing over a team, he was handing over a clear purpose. Um, and yeah, every organisation should be bigger, um, than their number one person in charge. And I wonder if maybe some of our tech friends, uh, have lost sight of that. But anyway, enough of that.

Al ElliottPotentially. I mean, I was— I just go back to, um, I know you don't like me using the word Manchester United, but Just go back to Manchester United back in their glory days. They had a Klopp, didn't they, in, in the, in the form of Sir Alex Ferguson. And then a lot of things that Klopp does and Slot's doing now was, you know, Sir Alex was doing it way back in the '90s, wasn't he? So, you know, a little bit of love for our, for our friends who are just 50 kilometres along the motorway.

Leanne ElliottYeah, but I think, you know, you brought it up, you brought it up. I wasn't gonna go here, but Alex Ferguson is the GOAT. He's possibly the greatest football manager of all time. He did incredible things at United, to the pain and heartbreak of every Liverpool supporter. He left, and that transition wasn't managed as well as this one has been. They've been through, what, 6, 7 managers at this point? They're languishing at the bottom of the table. Um, yeah, leadership transitions are so important, um, and probably don't talk about that enough, actually. Um, but succession planning in general, and it should be something as a small business owner, you're doing it every level of your business. 'Cause we all know in a small business how disruptive it is when somebody unexpectedly leaves. Succession, that was a great TV show.

Al ElliottThat was a great TV show.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottYes, it was.

Leanne ElliottAnyway, let's move on. What have you seen this week, Al?

Al ElliottOkay, so Ryan Hogg on Yahoo Finance.

Leanne ElliottRyan who?

Al ElliottRyan Hogg.

Leanne ElliottWhat a name.

Al ElliottIt's a great, great name, isn't it? I think it could only be better if his name was Randy Hogg. That would be even better. Hi, I'm Randy Hogg. And this week on Anyway, Mr.

Leanne ElliottHogg.

Al ElliottMr. Hogg. Mr. Hogg. Ryan Hogg. I'm so sorry, Ryan. We genuinely love your name. Um, it's a cool name. In British, in Britain, we only have like sort of like, you know, something like Booksmith and all these boring names.

Leanne ElliottElliot.

Al ElliottElliot. Yeah. Boring name. Anyway, he was quoted on, well, he got an article on Yahoo Finance. Yahoo Finance is where you're gonna find all the best articles by the very best people. Leanne, weren't you on there a little while ago?

Leanne ElliottYes, I was. I was talking about the government's Plans to bring in a number of coaches to help long-term worklessness.

Al ElliottYes, you are. Anyway, so Spotify's HR chief has come out saying, and this is what Ryan's reporting on, saying remote staff aren't children, and as the company sticks to their work from anywhere policy. Now, this is kind of a bit of a— yes, this is a breath of fresh air.

Leanne ElliottGo on, Spotify.

Al ElliottIt's a breath of fresh air compared to a lot of the RTO mandates from some of the other— some of the tech companies that you wouldn't expect as well.

Leanne ElliottSame.

Al ElliottYeah, Zoom.

Leanne ElliottYeah, low point.

Al ElliottYeah, weird. By the way, this is the, this is the week that Skype died. I know, I don't know how they managed to muck that up. But anyway, different story for a different day. So as we've said, there's a lot of tech companies who are dragging people back to the office, but it seems that Spotify is completely swimming against this tide. So here are the key points from the article. First of all, Spotify's Chief HR Officer, Katharina Berg, made this brilliant statement saying, and I'm going to quote directly here, You can't spend a lot of time hiring grownups and then treat them like children. I mean, that's just obviously absolutely spot on, exactly what Leanne's been saying. Secondly, despite going through like a major overhaul in 2023 where they laid off about 17% of their staff, they've kept their work from anywhere policy that they introduced back in February 2021. No backtracking like we've seen with Meta or Amazon. The third interesting point I thought was this approach seems to be working for them financially because their market value has apparently doubled in 2024. With record quarterly revenues whilst cutting costs. So the whole idea of people must be in the office to be productive argument looks a little bit shaky here. And fourthly, and I think this is really telling, is that attrition rates, i.e., the percentage of people who leave, were 15% lower in 2022 compared to pre-pandemic levels in 2019. And they've improved the diversity of their talent pool too, which is of course what remote work is great at. You can get— you can have a fabulous person who lives in South Africa but could never commute or would never, would never relocate to— is it Sweden or Denmark where Spotify is? I can't remember. I think it's Sweden. Would never relocate there, but you can still, you know, have them as part of your team. Now, they are— the report does go on to say that remote work is not perfect. Uh, Katarina Berg actually acknowledged that it's harder and we all struggle to collaborate in a virtual requirement is what she says. But that doesn't mean they're forcing people back just because it's trendy. I thought this was really interesting. They're trying to entice people back. Occasionally they have these sort of listening lounge things they call, I think they're called listening lounge. Yeah, listening lounge. So they have the listening lounge sessions with actual like rock stars and stuff, and they encourage people to come in during what they call these core weeks for strategy chats and reconnecting. Again, this is hybrid. I think a lot of people are going, I'd never wanna go in the office, and people are going, everyone should be in the office. Generally speaking, it's in between, isn't it? It's absolutely in between. It's hybrid. So, Leanne, what are your thoughts? Spotify onto something here or? Are they just trying to avoid— maybe they're just trying to avoid a morale hit after those massive layoffs and just doing this just to like make people feel better. What do you think?

Leanne ElliottYeah, but what a brilliant way to do it.

Al ElliottTrue.

Leanne ElliottWhat a brilliant way to do it. We know that what's even more extraordinary about that attrition statistic is that typically we see about a 30% voluntary turnover after an organisation makes layoffs in the following 12 months. So the fact they've actually managed to reduce their attrition Yeah. Um, is really quite impressive. It's no surprise that they've improved their diversity. I can't imagine there's any— clearly there's no issue with performance if they're cutting costs and increasing revenue. And it's about— it's not about saying we don't need to connect, we don't need to collaborate, and we don't need the value of that in person from time to time. Of course we do. But it's that intention. It's that why are we coming together? What are we hoping to achieve? What is this for? Is it for building relationships? Is it for building connection? Is it for Ideation, collaboration. And what drives employees nuts is when they're told they have to come into the office because that's how we collaborate and communicate, and they spend all of their day looking at their computer on Zoom calls and their manager isn't even in the office.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnd then they, you know, the pain of that 1-hour commute is even more painful because there is another way of doing it. I'm not overly concerned if an organisation wants to be 100% in the office. I'm not too concerned if an organisation wants to be remote. I applaud the organisations that are remote first because I think it's it's a really smart way of of capitalising on current sentiment, current technology, current trends. My beef is the RTO mandates that hide behind collaboration, coordination, ideation, whatever shun you want to give it. It's rubbish. It's nonsense. It's not. It's about control. It's about it's about managers having eyes on people because they haven't got the skills. to manage anyway. It's, it's nonsense. At least just be transparent about the fact you want people in the office because that's where you want them to be. Um, so yeah, good for you, Spotify. A really great case study of the power of remote work, both for an organisation and the individual. I applaud you.

Al ElliottWell done, Spotify. Although if you've watched the, um, Netflix thing on Spotify, it's a 4-parter, really good, really well put together. Um, they, um, yeah, they don't get everything right, I think. But anyway, that's by the by. Leanne, what else you seen this week, my love?

Leanne ElliottPolygamous workers.

Al ElliottOoh, say that word again.

Leanne ElliottPolygamous. Am I saying that right?

Al ElliottI think so.

Leanne ElliottPolygamous. How it's spelt.

Al ElliottYeah, polygamous. Polygamous.

Leanne ElliottPolygamous workers.

Al ElliottRight, well, what the hell is that?

Leanne ElliottPolygamous workers. So yeah, this was from the Times published this story. You fancy these days, don't you? I know. It's called The Rise of Polygamous— am I saying that right? You've got me doubting myself now.

Al ElliottNo, no, no, I think so. We look forward to your letters.

Leanne ElliottThe Rise of Polygamous Workers and Efforts to Catch Them Out. Pesky little workers. So it's looking at a growing trend of employees secretly working 2 or more full-time jobs at once without telling their employers.

Al ElliottRight, okay, yes, I've seen a lot of this on Reddit. There's a— I think it's called Antiwork, is a big Reddit subreddit.

Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah.

Al ElliottYeah, cool, go on.

Leanne ElliottSo since the shift to remote work, some people have been juggling multiple contracts, either using AI to get tasks done faster or using mouse jigglers, mouse jiggling software. to fake activity, um, and it's being dubbed, um, polygamist working. I think we've also called— heard it called like moonlighting, isn't it? Or, yeah, um, overemployment, another thing it's called. Um, so a recent investigation by the National Fraud Initiative—

Al ElliottJesus, this has got— this, this got real serious real quick, didn't it? National Fraud Initiative, go on.

Leanne ElliottNational Fraud Initiative found over half a million pounds in overpaid salaries in just a few London boroughs, and now councils and employers are cracking down, warning managers to look out for red flags like long email response times— how dare you even take a moment to think about a problem or a response— refusal to take time off, or employees— how dare you be overcommitted to my organisation— um, or employees avoiding video calls, because clearly that preference isn't okay. There have been cases in court. One civil servant allegedly held down 3 full-time government jobs at once.

Al ElliottWell done. Good for you.

Leanne ElliottYeah, but I guess this is where it gets interesting and maybe a little bit uncomfortable, because yes, working multiple full-time jobs without disclosure is dishonest. And yes, there are some serious implications around trust, productivity, potentially ruining it for the rest of us when it comes to remote work. But I think the important question is why? Why is this happening? We are in the middle of a cost of living crisis that's been going on for, well, really, have we even recovered from the pandemic? Has that even happened? Inflation squeezing every single household. Getting on the property ladder if you're under 40, is that even possible now? Particularly in London. And job security doesn't exist anymore, the amount of layoffs that, that we see. So in that context, is it any wonder that some people are looking for ways to earn more, even if that means bending and, let's be honest, sometimes breaking the rules? Workers are being chased for having more than one job. And yet, you know, the hypocrisy— large organizations still exploit as many loopholes as they can to dodge tax, dodge accountability, to pay people what they're worth, quietly trim headcount to boost margins. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but I think it, it just makes me wonder, are we focusing on the wrong problem? Why are we spending money, or why is this fraud initiative, whatever it is, spending money to catch out these hard-working people who are just trying to stay afloat. I just think it's a bigger conversation about how we build fairer, more sustainable workplaces that actually pay people a living wage. It isn't about fraud to me. It's about frustration. It's about survival. But maybe I'm just on my soapbox. Al, what do you think?

Al ElliottIt's not fraud, it's frustration. That's a brilliant, that's a brilliant t-shirt right there. Right. Okay. The way I look at it is that, and I always, I've been very open about this, is that I don't really care how long it takes someone to do a particular job if they're working for us. I want an outcome. And if that outcome is really, really good, then we'll pay, you know, good money for it. If it just does the job, we'll pay the minimum we can for it, you know? But I'm, it's outcome-based. And it really surprised me when you said there was actually court things. I didn't know that was fraud. I thought it was just a bit like, oh, you shouldn't do that. But.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottI didn't realise it was actually fraud. So if you are doing this, just double-check, like, you know, that you're not actually going to get yourself in real, real— can I say the word shit? Yeah, I can. Yeah. But I'm like, why? Why care? Because if these people are clever enough and they leverage technology enough to still get 3 jobs done in their week, fine, great. I think I look at it as then the managers are going, oh, we must be overpaying them. So managers are getting, like you said, greedy. Managers are getting greedy and going, oh, well, we can actually probably pay less for this. No, hang on, you're still getting the same outcome anyway. Right. I'm sorry, I borrowed your soapbox there for a second.

Leanne ElliottI'm gonna step back down.

Al ElliottYes, there you go.

Leanne ElliottBack to you. Yeah, no, I think, do you know what? I think this is, this is, these are 2 words that I think are gonna be talked more and more about over the 12 months, over the next 12 months. Psychological contract. Right. As employees, we have a psychological contract with our employers. And that has not only been breached in the past 5 years, it's been ripped up a little bit at a time, screwed up into a little tiny ball, and then thrown at us in a really irritating way. It's just— there's just none of it left.

Al ElliottCan I just— sorry, just want to clear— no, I just want to clear up psychological contract for anyone who's not come across that term before. What does it mean?

Leanne ElliottIt's just these expectations that we have of our employer. It's about their behaviour, about their promises. It's about what they've committed to us as an employee, like allowing us to work hybrid and then calling everybody back into the office, that is a breach of psychological contract.

Al ElliottRight.

Leanne ElliottSo if things like, if I show up, I work hard, I stay loyal, you'll support me, you'll treat me fairly, you'll invest in me, you'll develop me— when people stop feeling like that's true, then it completely changes how we behave in the workplace. It completely changes how our dynamic with work works. That's where quiet quitting comes from. That's where rage quitting comes from. That's where every trend that you see on TikTok is coming from. It's certainly where overemployment is coming from. And when we look at the levels of disengagement as well, which are higher than they ever have been, I just, I just don't think it's any wonder. And my frustration is this constant finger-pointing at the individual rather than saying, what is driving you to the point where you are having to commit fraud and have 3 jobs? Because I can't imagine there's many people out there that just wanna be that busy.

Al ElliottAnd if you, I think talking about being busy, if you go back about 2 weeks ago, we had Casparus go on talking about why being busy is the wrong thing you should be saying. So if you, if you do find yourself saying, I'm very busy, go back and listen to that. Leanne, I love this because you've essentially summed up most of the problems in work as breaking a psychological contract. So there you go. So we fixed your workplace for you. Anyway.

Leanne ElliottAnyway. So yeah, I'm sorry for the rant there. Started on a high and ended on a rant, um, with some hog in the middle.

Al ElliottSome hog. It was a hog sandwich.

Leanne ElliottYes.

Al ElliottOkay. Well, look, after, after this very short break, we'll be back with a hot take from Rebecca Taylor on why Pigs make very delicious sandwich. But no, no, no, she's talking about why gossip might be more important at work than you think. Do not go anywhere unless we've just offended you with our stupid stupidity around hogs. See you in a second.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on Fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioral science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.

Leanne ElliottSo come back.

Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. While Leanne wipes the tears from her eye.

Leanne ElliottShe's—

Al ElliottWell, one thing I love about my wife is that when she, when she finds something really funny, she proper belly laughs and then cries as well. And it's, uh, it's brilliant. Anyway, if you're a regular listener, you will know that every week we bring on a workplace expert to share their hot take on the world of work. And today's guest knows just how much of it happens when we're not in the room, because behind every policy, promotion, or pay rise, there's usually a conversation and sometimes a little gossip about who's in, who's out, and what happens next.

Leanne ElliottYeah, so whether it's that awkward meeting, an accidental glimpse at your CEO's calendar, or their klop slot, or their klop slot, maybe those quiet conversations, um, that maybe spark real change. Work isn't as formal as we like to pretend. Uh, that's where Rebecca Taylor comes in. She's the co-founder of SkillCycle and the co-host of HR Confessions, a podcast that brings real HR stories to life with honesty, humor, and a sharp eye for what's really going on behind the scenes. For today's hot take, Rebecca is here to explain why gossip isn't just inevitable, it's how work actually gets done. And if we can learn to handle it properly, it might just be the key to building better workplaces.

Al ElliottSo, my hot take is that all work is just a collection of gossip.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottSo, if you think about the actual definition of the word gossip, because I don't want to assume that everyone has the same definition, it's one of those words that can It has an emotional reaction to some people, right? But if you think about it, the actual definition of gossip is 2 people talking about someone who's not in the room. So, if I'm going into a job interview and I interview for a job, and then someone comes in to talk to the person who interviewed me about me, they're literally gossiping about me to see if I'm a fit for that job. And that's the whole purpose of interviewing. So, it's literally just talking about this person when they're not in the room and then making decisions about Whether or not this person's going to work there in that specific instance. Performance management, it's just gossip. It influences so many things in our lives. We have this big movement right now in the US for pay transparency. So states are passing laws where it's mandatory for you to post a salary in a job description, and it has to be transparent that this is the pay range for this role. It has to be real. It has to be a realistic range. It can't be a dollar to a million dollars.

Leanne ElliottIt has to be actually there.

Al ElliottAnd that came out because of workplace gossip.

Leanne ElliottPeople started to talk about their salaries.

Al ElliottThey learned that there was this huge pay gap and that salaries were not necessarily paid in a reasonable way. They were based on whatever you were making before, how well you could negotiate. And so, there's been this push for leveling salaries and being transparent about what they are, 'cause people are talking about it anyway. So, it's been this great movement for equity in the workplace. for transparency in the workplace. And it all started because people were gossiping about each other or about each other's salaries at work.

Leanne ElliottPeople are inherently social creatures.

Al ElliottAnd so, the concept of gossip is about your community spreading word to other members of the community to either promote safety in the community or to inform the community about something. What I think a lot of people will be thinking is going, okay, cool, but in my head, gossip is bad. So when does your definition of gossip become bad? To me, gossip is bad when it leads to people othering others in a negative way. So there's including people and then there's othering people. So including is kind of just like, be part of this community. Let's make this, let's be stronger together. Let's come together around this. And othering is like, go away. You don't belong here. You're different.

Leanne ElliottAnd it's treating difference like it's a bad thing.

Al ElliottSo if someone is a sexual predator, for example, it's okay to other them. It's okay to say, stay away from this person, keep them away, don't give them opportunities.

Leanne ElliottYou know, there's issues here that people need to know about.

Al ElliottBut when gossip is about something that's about sharing important information that helps the community or helps other people rise above something, then it's great. Pay transparency is an example of gossip that I'm a big fan of because it does drive a lot of equity that we've never really had before, at not in the States. And when we look at gossip in the form of how it can help other people, either help each other or help themselves, that's when it's good. Everybody talks about someone who's not there. The nature of the gossip all relies on whether or not you're inserting your opinion or if you're just sharing sort of facts and stories and letting the conversation unfold. So if I start a conversation that's just like, oh my God, my friend is such a jerk, Let me tell you why. I'm immediately inserting my opinions and this gossip is meant to break, to bring this person down who's not even here and can't advocate for themselves.

Leanne ElliottThat would be toxic gossip, right? We're all guilty of it. We all do it, but that would be considered toxic gossip to me.

Al ElliottBut otherwise, you know, it's just a natural part of the human experience. So we have toxic gossip where you insert your opinion into it. We have good gossip, which is just We're just— pay transparency, for example, is good gossip. Not for everyone, but it's good gossip. The best gossip is that juicy gossip.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottYou go, you're never going to guess. And someone looks over around either way to see whether someone's there and goes, do you know who's just done this? Juicy stuff is the juicy gossip is the stuff that really catches on. I mean, so right now we were just talking about this. So I'm reading a book called Careless People. It's a memoir. And it's about the, it's about the, I can actually, I mean, I could hold it up, not to like promote it, but Careless People by Sarah Nguyen Williams. Um, it's about her time at Facebook. And it's one of those stories that is so juicy because it's about something that so many people know and understand. Facebook is sort of this universal company, right?

Leanne ElliottAt this point, Meta, whatever we're calling it now, it's something that is so much a part of our household.

Al ElliottAnd this is a memoir about someone who worked there for 7 years. Talking about what it was like to work with Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg, these big household names that we all know about, and telling sort of the story of what it was really like on the inside. We love to know what happens on the inside of things, especially things that seemed at the time untouchable and have sort of changed its status in the world. Facebook, she worked there in 20— I think it was like 2012 is when she started there, 2011. I don't remember my timeline as I'm reading it. But so that was the time, it was before they IPO'd, it was when they were sort of in this like heyday of this is what our potential is compared to now where it's, it's sort of this like, it breeds a lot of toxicity because it enables a lot of the worst qualities of people and that's what gets people to engage, but it became what it is because people love to engage in juicy things and they love to insert their opinion on it. And so it gets out of hand when that's not regulated, or if that happens too publicly, or if it dehumanizes people, because that's where a lot of social media has kind of gone. It started as fun, gossipy kind of stuff, and now it's just dehumanizing people to the point where we forget that there are humans on the other side of these accounts that we have.

Leanne ElliottUm, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the juicy gossip because a good story is still a good story.

Al ElliottI mean, it's why we love, it's why we love novels. It's why we love movies. It's just, it's all about sort of framing the story, and the ones that are based on a true story are the ones that people really kind of sink their teeth into. You said work is gossip. So, how do we promote, how do we get more of the good stuff without getting the bad stuff in work? Is that, is that, have I taken the wrong thing out of this? No, I don't think you have. In order to get the good stuff out of it, we first need to, it's almost like accepting that. It's just really thinking about And acknowledging that business decisions are made based on gossip.

Leanne ElliottAnd so then how do we want to use that gossip to make better business decisions for our business, but also for our people? Because even when you think about, you know, you're going into a strategy meeting, your company, you're going to be go— you're setting your annual goals, right? So you have your objectives, you have your money goal, you have your make this product goal, you have all of that stuff.

Al Elliottinevitably those conversations turn into, well, who's going to own this? And what participation is each person going to have? What are going to be the goals for the different people who are going to contribute to this? So you immediately start talking about other people who are not in the room who are going to have a stake in whether or not business gets done a certain way. So if you know that, if you're in one of those rooms and you're trying to figure out, you know, who's the person who's not in this room who can be either included in this project or who could be best set up to succeed by doing this work, make sure you're including them in the right way. And ideally, if you can eventually bring them into the room to represent themselves, you know, that's that great magic of true inclusion. But there are a lot of people in power who, you know, it's their job to make decisions about people who are not in the room, because you can't have the whole company in there, like, make setting goals, right?

Leanne ElliottThat's just not a realistic thing.

Al ElliottBut it's just knowing and acknowledging that there's so much power. Most decisions are made in how you talk about other people.

Leanne ElliottSo, talk about other people differently. Talk about them, give good feedback, give honest feedback, but make sure that that feedback is delivered to that person and not just said behind their back.

Al ElliottAnd that's where you really start to get a very healthy culture of performance and of learning is when you turn The gossip of what you say about someone when they're not in the room into constructive feedback for them to act on and possibly change behavior to make a different impact on their work.

Leanne ElliottThat's like the difference.

Al ElliottThat's the mandate that I give to everybody is like, turn your gossip into actual feedback so people know what to do about it. That was the brilliant Rebecca Taylor. Definitely go and check out her podcast, HR Confessions. She's a really funny person. And you know when you just meet someone, you think, We're gonna get on really well. And we did the same with Kate Waterfall-Hill, um, about, uh, about 30 episodes ago. And, uh, yeah, when I was like, Rebecca, you and I are gonna be friends for a long, long time. I think what's, what really kind of intrigued me about this, and if you listen to the entire interview, which I've, I've edited, well, Leanne's actually edited down so that it doesn't have me going, um, what are you talking about? I didn't really get it at first. But then I did when she explained it, because gossip is just at its core, it's just talking about people who aren't in the room. And that's how most work decisions are made, you know, like hiring, promotions, pay decisions. Even strategic projects, they all involve people who are discussing others behind closed doors. So Rebecca says we shouldn't pretend that gossip is purely toxic. We should accept it as part of the natural way that workplace functions, and we should perhaps use it a bit more intentionally.

Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. It's that whole definition of culture that people lose their shit over, which I don't particularly like. But is it the Bezos one? Culture is how your customers talk about you when you're not in the room.

Al ElliottYeah, I think he says it's brand, but it's equally—

Leanne ElliottSame. Employer brand, you know, it's how people talk about you when you're not. you're not in the room. What I really enjoyed about Rebecca's hot take is that, and I've never kind of, you hear gossip, you assume negative, but how she was saying it can actually drive positive change, like pay transparency. I guess any change around some kind of discrimination, it's that workplace gossip that kind of is that catalyst behind what starts these major movements. So yeah, I thought that was really interesting. So when employees start—

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne Elliottsharing salary information, exposing those inequities, then they're not hidden anymore. And that gossip then drives, drives that systemic change. Um, I thought that was a really, really cool perspective.

Al ElliottYeah. And the other thing to consider is that, you know, they always say that the opposite of, uh, of love is not hate, it's indifference. And you kind of like have that, that if, if people are sharing this, you know, like gossiping about their CEO, Then it's, it's not, they're not indifferent to the company. They're just really passionate about it. And they're probably, probably some kind of psychological contract's been broken and they're like, how dare they? So the fact that someone is talking about you is actually quite good, even if it is sort of negative. But the real thing you gotta remember, I think, is what Rebecca said about healthy gossip, which is focusing on sharing facts or building community or promoting safety or just chatting about work. Whereas toxic gossip is all about the judgment, or it's about, I think she used the phrase othering as well. So.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottIt just, just be really careful because you need to recognise when the conversation you're having is strengthening your team and your organisation versus the opposite, where it's tearing apart.

Leanne ElliottYou know, it becomes toxic when it's used with, with bad intention. When you're making a decision and people aren't there, you're gossiping about them. It's worth thinking about, well, how am I making this decision? How can I make this as transparent as possible? What data points am I using to make sure this is fair? How am I including employee consultation? How can I turn these private conversations that happen into real feedback that's going to be constructive for the organisation, create a healthier culture? So, I think it's a really good reflection point for any leader who is constantly having these conversations, these gossip conversations, and actually thinking, how can I do these with the right intention, um, and make sure that they're fed back in the right way?

Al ElliottAbsolutely. If you want to hear more from Rebecca, then you can find her on LinkedIn. Or listen to our podcast, HR Confessions. It is really, really good. And then go and have a look at SkillCycle and see what they do, because I think you're gonna be like it. Everything you need is gonna be in the show notes. Lea, it's my favourite time of the week. It is the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. I haven't got— I haven't messed that up for weeks now, have I?

Leanne ElliottWell done.

Al ElliottI know, it only took me like 2 years to get it right. So if you've not listened before, we have questions from listeners. I put them to Leanne, she solves them, we all go home. That's how it works. So question number 1, question number 1. How do I run a wellness challenge that people actually want to join? Interesting. I've just been asked to organise the wellness challenge for about 40 of our office-based employees, and I have no idea where to start. We're all desk-based and we're in pretty remote areas, so things like walk-to-work days or big group events aren't really that feasible. It's also important that we avoid anything like weight loss competitions. We want to feel— make this feel inclusive. And comfortable, not something that makes people feel self-conscious. What should we include that's actually engaging, and how do we make sure people want to take part rather than just feel pressured?

Leanne ElliottI would start with reflecting on what's the objective of running these, this wellbeing challenge? Why? Is it because you wanna look like you're doing something as a company? Is it because you've had complaints about certain aspects of wellbeing that people are struggling with? It should help you figure out what people are going to engage with if you understand how individuals are struggling in terms of their wellbeing. Now, don't get me wrong, typically this isn't— this intention isn't put ahead of these things being announced and then given to somebody like you, poor thing, who's been asked to arrange it. One story that I heard, because I think wellbeing, we always think, yeah, weight, health, walking, exercise, etc., etc. Wellbeing, the best thing we can do for our wellbeing is build our connections, build our social connections at work, build those relationships, deepen them. That's also really good for our performance and really good for organisational outcomes. One, um, thing that I heard, I think it was when Bruce Daisley was on the show, and he was talking about a secretary who saved company culture by starting Crisp Thursday.

Al ElliottCrisp Thursday. Do you remember this? Yes. Crisp, if for those people, yeah, chips. Um, for American and, and Aussies.

Leanne ElliottYeah, so she was like, no one, no one's connecting, everyone's really miserable, nobody even says hello to me when they walk in the door. So she sent an email out to everybody and said at 1 o'clock or 2 o'clock on Thursday, um, there's a, there's a, we're having Crisp Thursday for half an hour, I'll bring the snacks, see you there. A couple of people turned up the first week, then more and more, then it turned up loads of people were turning up for this half an hour, having these conversations, having these chats, building connections, building relationships. Problem solving together, identifying areas where people were struggling so they could do something about it. My thought would be to do something like this. Um, I understand if you are dressing up as health, you might not want crisps or chips, but you could do like—

Al ElliottCelery.

Leanne ElliottCelery. Yes.

Al ElliottCelery Thursdays.

Leanne ElliottYeah. Or just bring your own, bring your own snack. Snack Thursdays. Bring your own snack and we'll just have a, we'll just have a chat. Because I think once you, you do this, you might start to hear the same types of things that people are struggling with. And it might be that If they're at the desk all the time, people are struggling with their back. It might be something else that's, that's going on. It might be setting boundaries at work that people are finding really hard. But I think you're going to start to build that connection, build that conversation, hopefully get an idea of actually what people want. And then even if you don't, you're building relationships, and that's one of the best things that we can do for our individual wellbeing and for our organisational performance. Other things that you could do, if you wanted to throw out some ideas, and I'd say as well, try and get some ideas from other people, maybe set up your own little working group or Or have them at this Snack Thursday as little talking points that you can ask people about. One thing that could be really good, you said that you work quite, um, in a rural area. There's been really interesting research at the moment into both forest bathing, which we've spoken about, so spending time without devices in nature is really, really good for our mental health and wellbeing, but also in terms of walking meetings and problem solving. It's a cliché, but you always have your best ideas when you're walking the dog. Yeah, or you're walking to the bus, or you're in the shower. So, it's kind of engaging in this physical activity rather than a cognitive activity that somehow helps our creative juices flowing. So, even that, maybe start a, you know, for every Tuesday, every meeting has to be a walking meeting or something like that. But they would be my ideas. But ultimately, I think you need to figure out exactly where people want help with their health and wellbeing and design interventions around that.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnd a good way of finding that out, if you don't have the data, might be doing something like a Snack Thursday just to get people together.

Al ElliottFabulous. So basically what Leanne's saying is, don't ask Leanne, ask your team. Because, I mean, that's, that's, is that not like the most, and I'm not belittling your question here because it's obviously, you know, you're like, oh my God, I wanna make sure this works. But yeah, it seems really obvious, doesn't it? If you wanna sell something, go and find people who wanna buy it and say, what do you wanna buy? If you wanna start a club, go and don't go and start a club for people who are really into Hogs in clop slots. Go and find out people who are, what they're interested in, put that together. Go and ask them. Because I think a lot of people get given these projects and think, oh, well, I have to deliver this and it has to be me. No, just go and go and ask other people. And I think you'll be really surprised. I also love the idea of walking as well, because someone, I can't remember where I saw it, but someone said, when your legs move, your thoughts move. And I found that so often. I used to go out and listen to podcasts when I was out with the dog, and now I don't. I just put You know, I, I just go out and think and number of times come back and go, oh, that's what I'm gonna do tomorrow. Yeah, I love it.

Leanne ElliottAny other letters in your sack, Al?

Al ElliottLet's just go root to root. It's like carry on podding. Uh, yes. So this question number 2, is it possible to start over after your business fails? Well, I can answer that. Yes, it is. I'm 42 and I've been running my family's business, a medical-grade apparel manufacturing company, um, since my father retired back in 2014. I joined the company in 2008 after working a few years in telecom sales, and running the business has been my life ever since. So what are you on? You're almost on 20 years, aren't you? But right now, sales are sliding. I've tried everything I can to turn it around, but we just don't have any more to invest in sales reps or managers, and I can't fix it all by myself. Oh, this sound, mate. I'm so sorry. Honestly, it feels like the business and my future are both coming to an end. I'm also recently divorced. Oh geez. And I'll be honest, I took my eye off the ball when that happened. Financially, I make around about £130,000 a year with health insurance covered, but after taxes, divorce settlements, my take-home is closer to £40,000. Here's the real fear. If the business does go under, is it even possible to start over? I don't have a degree and all my experience is in running this company. Would anyone even hire me? Am I out of options, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottOh, I need a hug. You okay? Yeah. Um, I, do you know what? I want you to start this answer, Al, because you, you've been there.

Al ElliottYeah. Back in, uh, 2005, went bankrupt, £103,000. Um, it was my first business, um, and it didn't go well. I went through a period feeling exactly like you for maybe about 6 months of going, oh my God, I'm gonna have to go and get a job. Will anyone even employ me? The fact is that firstly, that experience has shaped a lot of my decisions, um, since. Secondly, you now know a lot about making bad decisions, which sounds really bad, but you, you know a lot about that. So if you just don't do that again, or you see another situation coming up, you've got experience of what happens if you take your eye off the ball. What happens if you invest, overinvest in something? What happens if you bring on the wrong people? You've got all this experience. You, you, you learn more from the money you lose than the money you make. That's my belief in business. So first of all, I'm, I'm very optimistic. Someone's gonna say, no, it's not over. No, you're absolutely fine. But if you do feel like that, first of all, just allow yourself to feel like that for a little bit. You're gonna go through the 5 stages of grieving because something is, something has died. Your business has died. You've probably done, you've probably gone through those stages with your divorce. You might be through them all. You might be accepting. You might not be. Um, but allow yourself to go through those. But the fact is, There is so much opportunity out there. And the fact is you've been running a business, what, 17 years now? You've been running a business, you know so much. If you have to go and get a job for 6 months, 12 months, go and do that. Or perhaps go and say, right, I'm gonna go and consult and I'm gonna consult for people who are in family businesses, um, where it's suddenly taken a decline. You don't have to have the answers necessarily. You can just sit with someone and go, so what can we do? You coach them rather than sort of necessarily consult with them.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al Elliottthem. That's my thoughts. Le, fill in the gaps.

Leanne ElliottNo, I think that's really good, really good advice. Um, it's not over. You are employable. You can rebuild. This is the headline thing to take away from this. It's not always going to be easy, but you can absolutely rebuild this. I think my first thing would be, if the business isn't working, if it's causing you more stress, if you're spending more money to try and keep it afloat and your heart's just not in it anymore, Shut it down. Close it down. Wind it down. Do it now before you're forced to do it at a higher, you know, with higher levels of debt than is necessarily required. Shut it down. There is, of course, going to be an emotional aspect to this because it's a family business and you've been here for 20 years and your dad owned it before. But, you know, the world changes, things move on, things end. And as Al said, that's really sad. You're going to have to grieve that. And that ending is going to happen really quickly.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnd the psychological, psychological transition you're going to have to go through to accept that change is going to be really, really slow. So you are going to feel angry. You are going to feel fearful. You might feel shame. You might feel embarrassment. You might be angry. Feel it, because you have to process those emotions effectively to then move on to the next stage, to that new beginning. I would always recommend, if you can, if you've got the budget, the runway, engage a coach to help you with that, a counsellor, a therapist, somebody who's going to help you with that reflective process. to really deal with those emotions. Then going, I guess, onto the more practical things in terms of employability. You have learned, as Al said, so much over 20 years. And for, don't get, you know, the last few years have been tough. 18 years before that, it was great. You've had a business for 20 years. You've been working in a business for 20 years.

Al ElliottFabulous advice. And I really hope that it works out for you. Do take Leanne's advice. Do go back and listen to episode, I think it might be episode 30 or 40. Stephen Short, it's about family businesses. Um, he's an expert in transition between family businesses and also ending them. Um, and, uh, if you want some like one-to-one, then Leanne's email is in the show notes, so get in touch. Okay, onto question number 2, number 3. Sorry, I've lost count. HR is making me the bad guy over return to office. What do I do? Oh dear. I need some advice because I'm stuck in a really uncomfortable situation. I run a division of about 40 people in a company of around 1,000 employees. And the leaders have told us that we need to do a 4-day return-to-office policy, possible medical exceptions. One of my team members has legitimate medical needs. They have twice-weekly document appointments— sorry, doctor appointments. So commuting 4 days a week would be difficult. I'm fine with them working in the office 2 days a week, but it doesn't affect our workflow. But HR is pushing back. They're hinting that it's a consistency issue. Worse, they're telling the employee that I think is important for everyone to be in for 4 days, which isn't true. Feels like HR doesn't want to approve exceptions, but they also don't want to say no themselves, making me the bad guy. Is there a way for me to push back without putting my own position at risk? And is this normal behaviour from HR?

Leanne ElliottUm, that's like saying, is it normal behaviour from accountants? We can talk about stereotypes and, and what people enjoy moaning about on LinkedIn, That's not my experience of HR, and there are some many incredible HR professionals out there that are doing a really difficult, difficult job. So, with that in mind, I would always be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. More than likely, they're getting pressure from senior leadership to have to implement this quickly and fully. You know, that can get lost in translation when people are feeling the stress to get something done. In terms of, is there anything you can do? Yes. And I think the easiest thing you can do Is ask for anything that they're telling you in terms of policy that needs to be implemented, specifically in terms of your team and this individual. Get it in writing so it shows it's coming directly from HR, it's directly from the company, it's not coming from you. You can then confidently say to your team, this isn't my change. I was more than happy having you guys in 2 days a week. This is where we're at. This is what it means. HR are also going to know what they can and can't do legally, both for good and potential evil, in terms of making reasonable adjustments for this person.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottI would lean into that. My, my feeling is that HR people are usually just under pressure. They're not out to, to get you or make employees' lives worse. And it really frustrates me when people will say that HR is on the inside, on the side of the employer. It's like, well, a good HR person actually works as a partner, as that kind of mediator between the two. So, I would get it in writing, go to HR, express your concerns about this individual in terms of the impact it's going to have. on their quality of life, their quality of work, potential discrimination acts and behaviours going on as well. Once you've got that, have that conversation with your team with that information in writing. Have a one-to-one with this individual to see, make sure you're not making any assumptions. See if there is a way that they can work with HR and you to figure out a working schedule that's going to meet everybody's needs. You know, as we've talked about a few times on Today's show. Transitions are really hard and they can feel very emotive, and it can be very easy to point blame and be frustrated. Sometimes we just need to give people the benefit of the doubt. Get everything in writing to protect yourself, um, and make sure— your job as a manager is to look out for your people, and that's what you're doing, so you're doing the right thing. But part of that job is working with other teams within the company to do that in a way that is sustainable for the organisation as well as legal. and ethical and right for the individual. So, you're doing all the right things. Write it down, give them the benefit of the doubt, and try and figure out a way where you can all work together, you, HR, and this employee, to find a solution that works.

Al ElliottGreat advice. And I think the only thing I'd add to that is that the way you've written this is quite emotive, and it's obviously something which you feel very responsible for. There's quite a good phrase to use, which is, that's just not possible, but what is, is. So perhaps you can start less say, I'm not allowed to do that, and more go, the fact is that's not possible right now under what I've been told. However, what could we possibly look at which might be acceptable for both terms? So, like Leanne said, you're almost a mediator here between HR and your team. So, you know, try not to take it too personally. And I know it must feel really terrible because you obviously really like your team and you're trying to do the best for them, but—

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottYou know, a great negotiator, if you wanna listen to a great negotiator, go back and listen to John Smith, who was Maradona's agent. Um, he's got a great book about negotiating. Uh, that's a weird way of saying it, negotiating. Um, but also the episode, the episode's got really, really good stories in it. And he, all the time he was stuck between teams and players and trying to get the best deal for both of them. And most of the time he would say, it's just not possible to do that, but what we can do is this. So that's my advice, um, for what it's worth.

Leanne ElliottLovely. And, and yeah, good luck. Thank you to, to everyone who wrote in this week. If you have a question for the Workplace Surgery, you'll find us at hello@truthliesandwork.com.

Al ElliottAll the links are in the show notes. So that's all for now. Join us next Tuesday for another edition of This Week in Work where we're going to be back in the studio rather than lying on a beach in Spain. We won't be on a beach, we'll be in a restaurant having tapas. Um, and also, as I've said, keep saying, have a look at our YouTube channel, see if anything resonates. If you see a video, you go, oh, I really like that, because it's usually chopped up from these, That would be really good feedback for us. If you see one you don't like, tell us as well in the comments as well, because, uh, we are really open to these comments. We're just trying to do our very best without becoming one of those YouTube influencers, which, you know, we all kind of hate, but we have to love.

Leanne ElliottA little bit harsh, but yeah, I'm all here for the YouTube and the hard people working to create great content. With that in mind, talking about great content, uh, make sure you don't miss Thursday's episode. We'll be joined by Dr. Sarah Hughes, CEO of Mind. We'll be talking about serious mental illness, well, why prevention matters more than perks, and why culture, not just programmes, is really what makes the difference. It's a conversation you don't want to miss. We will see you then.

Al ElliottAnd because we're on holiday, this is going to be audio only. There will be a video on YouTube, but it's probably going to be something with swirls on it, so, uh, you probably want to stick to your audio for, for that one. Right, we'll see you Thursday. Bye-bye. Bye.