Episode 195 · 8 May 2025 · 48:58
The truth about mental health at work, with Dr Sarah Hughes, CEO at Mind
Featuring Sarah Hughes
The truth about mental health at work, with Dr Sarah Hughes, CEO at Mind
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Intro — who Sarah is and what Mind does
How public perception of mental health has shifted
The key misconceptions that persist
interview#mental-health#misconceptions#stigma
The economic cost of poor mental health
Why mental health became Sarah's life's work
interview#mental-health#career#personal-story
Why senior leaders are reluctant to share lived experience
Is Gen Z's mental health crisis a red herring?
interview#gen-z#mental-health#crisis
Social injustice — the areas that concern Sarah most
The Mental Health at Work commitments and best practice examples
Why EAP services aren't enough
interview#eap#mental-health#workplace-support
The Oxford University wellbeing research
Do wellness initiatives actually work?
"Sometimes annoying" — Sarah's Twitter bio explained
interview#twitter#bio#personal-brand
Women in leadership — the stats that shock
Pivotal moments that shaped Sarah's leadership
Understanding young Sarah
interview#personal-story#youth#reflection
Young people — why they need more than therapy
interview#young-people#therapy#mental-health
Where to find out more about Mind and wrap-up
Show notes
The Truth About Mental Health at Work — with Dr Sarah Hughes, CEO of Mind
Guest: Dr Sarah Hughes — Chief Executive of Mind, one of the UK's leading mental health organisations, with over 35 years in mental health and social care.
Mental health has never been talked about more. So why are services for the most seriously unwell still failing?
Dr Sarah Hughes joins Al and Leanne for a raw, unfiltered conversation about the gap between how we talk about mental health and how we actually support it. She explains why surface-level wellness programmes won't fix broken workplace cultures, why poverty, racism and inequality are mental health issues, and why leaders sharing their own struggles might be the single most powerful thing they can do.
This is the full, unedited conversation — including the moments you've not heard before.
Key Takeaways
Mental health literacy has improved — but services for severe illness are lagging. We're better at talking about mental health than ever before, but the system is still failing those with the most serious needs. Awareness without action isn't enough.
Culture and leadership matter more than free yoga or mindfulness apps. Wellness initiatives work for holistic health, but they can't fix a toxic workplace. If leaders aren't modelling vulnerability and addressing systemic issues, the yoga class is just a sticking plaster.
Poverty, racism and inequality are mental health issues. We can't separate mental health from the social conditions that drive it. Prevention means addressing the root causes, not just treating the symptoms.
Leaders sharing their own struggles can transform workplace stigma. It's rare that someone hasn't had their own experience of mental health challenges — the problem is we don't talk about it. When leaders do, it gives everyone else permission.
Young people need more than therapy — they need agency and action. Sitting in a room talking about feelings isn't enough. Young people need to feel they can do something — campaigning and community action can be genuinely therapeutic.
More From Dr Sarah Hughes
- Mind website: mind.org.uk
- Mental Health at Work Commitments: mentalhealthatwork.org.uk
- Sarah Hughes on X (Twitter): twitter.com/drsarahhughes
Mental Health Support
- Mind: mind.org.uk/information-support
- Samaritans (UK, free helpline): Call 116 123 or email jo@samaritans.org
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Sarah HughesMy name's Al and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures.
Sarah HughesYes, we do. This week we're helping ourselves to some beautiful wine and food in northern Spain as we're on holiday. But we've still got a great interview for you, and we'll tell you all about it after the break. Oh, and by the way, this is audio only. So if you're on YouTube, how are you listening to this? See you in a second. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot because Because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Sarah HughesNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. Happy Thursday. Happy Thursday. As I said, we're on holiday, so we're bringing you a slightly different type of episode. We call these Unfiltered. Series. This is where we bring you a raw, full, unedited interview with some of the most interesting and thought-provoking guests we've ever had on the show.
Leanne ElliottYes, if you're new here, Unfiltered is something we tend to do when we take a short break. So we did run it for 4 weeks over Christmas, and now in May we're doing it again. We're due another break, but just for 1 week this time. Don't worry, our regular Tuesday episodes are still going, and we'll be back next week with a brand new guest interview.
Sarah HughesToday we're bringing you our full conversation with Dr. Sarah Hughes, CEO of Mind, Mind is one of the most important mental health organisations in the UK.
Leanne ElliottSarah has decades of experience and she doesn't hold back. In this conversation, we cover why serious mental illness still isn't properly understood, why just throwing a wellness programme at a workplace won't fix its deeper problems, and the staggering economic cost when mental health is ignored.
Sarah HughesAnd best of all, this is the full unedited version, including the moments you've not heard before. In fact, nobody's heard before apart from Leanne and I. And Sarah.
Leanne ElliottYeah, Sarah, yes, she was there too. Um, so yeah, grab a coffee, get out outside for a walk or just settle in and let's go and meet the incredible Dr. Sarah Hughes. Dr. Sarah Hughes, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. I've been looking forward to this for a while. Can you start by introducing yourself to our listeners, telling them who you are, what you do, and what you're famous for?
Sarah HughesOh, it's lovely. It sounds a bit like a blind date introduction. So yes, I am Sarah and I'm Chief Executive of Mind at the moment, and I've been Chief Exec for a year. In fact, I celebrated my 1-year anniversary last week. Um, but I've worked in mental health for 35 years, and very proudly so, and I'm a trained social worker. Uh, I've been a chief exec for 20 years now in, um, 3, 4, actually 5 mental health charities. And, um, yes, I'm very, very pleased to be talking to you.
Leanne ElliottIf anyone hasn't heard of Mind, could you tell them a little bit about the organisation?
Sarah HughesYeah, so Mind is a mental health campaigning organisation. I think people will know us primarily for that. We have, I guess, led the nation's evolution around mental health for about a decade, although we're 75 years old, maybe 80 years old now. And we've got 108 local Minds across the country that deliver services, and we've got 170 very famous charity shops as well. So we do a huge amount. We fundraise for mental health. We campaign, we influence policy decisions. So, you know, it's us that kind of get mental health additional funding. You know, we work really hard with our partners to negotiate all of that. So we've got our fingers in all of the mental health pies, put it that way.
Leanne ElliottHow do you think the public's perception of mental health has shifted over the years?
Sarah HughesThat's a really interesting question because on one hand, You know, I have worked in mental health for 35 years, and it's true to say that when I first started, you know, there was no way we could talk about mental health in the way that we do now. There was no conversations between friends. There weren't conversations in families. There certainly wasn't conversations in workplaces. And even those of us who worked in mental health, you know, you couldn't really tell people because, you know, there was a sort of almost disdain and weird reaction. So to be, you know, 35 years later in an organisation that has really changed the conversation is quite an extraordinary thing, that we're talking about it in schools, we're talking about it in pubs, in barbers, in workplaces. You know, that's absolutely true. What I would say though is, um, whilst our literacy has definitely improved, would I hand on my heart say people experiencing serious mental illness would say, you know, we're getting the best services ever, we, we're getting access when we need it, all of those things. Um, I think some people would say yes, but I, I think there'd be a lot of people that would say no. And so the job is nowhere near done. Progress, yes, but we're not anywhere near where we need to be.
Leanne ElliottAnd it has been a turbulent time for all of us really over the past few years. Some You know, of course, and sadly more than others, but how would you, how would you describe the, the mental health of, of the nation?
Sarah HughesIt's been probably the most worrying 5 years. You know, there's no doubt about it. We've actually had quite a long time of global volatility, of financial stress and pressure. You know, before the pandemic, we had austerity, you know, so all of these things have eroded mental health. And so what we know is that there is an increase in prevalence. There is an increase in people seeking help for their mental health. I always have to be really careful though, and this is some of the issues around language and how we think about things now, that I don't want to pathologize the nation. So we're not all mentally ill. We've all got mental health. But we're not all mentally ill. There is a spectrum that, you know, some of us travel up and down. Some of us who experience very serious mental illness exist in a different world often from everybody else because their experience is so different. So we often merge the two together, mental health and mental illness, and that often can leave people with mental illness aside. So whilst I acknowledge that the prevalence has increased, We've also got to understand that within that group of people that are experiencing, um, deterioration in their mental health, that there will be people that will be worse off than others, even within that group.
Leanne ElliottWhat are the, the key misconceptions that, that maybe are a bit too prevalent for your liking, have been around a while? Is there any that spring to mind?
Sarah HughesSo I think that, uh, there are still some I think there are still— there's still a huge lack of understanding about what the experience of serious mental illness is. So for those people who are being sectioned under the Mental Health Act, um, for those people who are in and out of psychiatric hospitals, those people who are experiencing community care, who are in supported housing. And I do often worry that, that the conversation tends to move towards, um, a more, um, sort of mild to moderate discussion around mental health. And I think that actually what I understand from our feedback that we get from the public is that they're now ready to understand the whole spectrum of mental health. And actually the experience that people with more serious mental illness have is often the most difficult in terms of inequality, In terms of poor outcomes and so on. And actually, when we've started talking about that more publicly, people have been astonished and outraged. And, and that's what we need. That's what we need people to be.
Leanne ElliottYou've spoken before, and Mind is, is also very vocal that the state of mental health and care isn't— or the system isn't good enough in the UK. What is it about the UK's Mental Health Act that you find so disappointing?
Sarah HughesSo there are a number of levels, really. I mean, I think Firstly, quite a lot of the mental illness that we see being experienced by communities across the country are caused by things that we could prevent. So poverty, racism, discrimination, poor education, bullying, domestic violence, bad housing. All of these things could be within our gift to solve. And so from my perspective, it's about saying, well, Well, why aren't we preventing mental illness when we know the things that could help make a difference? We also know that, um, you know, innovate in— well, funding for services isn't at the level that it should be. You know, there is just not— we haven't achieved parity of esteem, which is this notion of equity between physical and mental health. We haven't got there. And we know that things like psychiatric hospitals, they're not in a— the establishment, the environment is not good enough. If you are somebody in mental health crisis and being sectioned under the Mental Health Act and you get taken into an inpatient ward, often those environments are nowhere near conducive enough to good mental health or recovery. So I think that that's where we need to be prioritizing our attention. We need to be preventing the mental illness that we know is caused by social factors. We need to be enabling people to access the support when they need it, and we need them to get the right care at the right time from the right people. And I think all of those things need to happen in concert with each other, because sometimes we get a bit of the system right but not the rest of the system. So I'll give you an example. If you're in a psychiatric ward, And you become, you know, you recover while you're on that psychiatric ward, but you want to be discharged, um, to a, you know, new environment or supported living, and there is not enough accommodation out there. You end up sitting on the ward for a lot longer than you need to. That, that system is basically failing the individual. Um, they would've got good treatment in hospital, but the next bit of the journey. isn't there. Um, and so we really have to look at a person's entire life, not just one bit of it. Mental health can't be broken down into, well, I can just give you a tablet for this and that will equal that. Um, it's just not that clear and simple.
Leanne ElliottYou've mentioned there the, the changes we need to see within society, within public services. Obviously, that means the The government as well, and that has also been horribly chaotic over the last few years. I've actually lost count now of how many prime ministers we've had. Probably a general election over the next 12 to 18 months. What's your hope for the, the government? What, what happens next?
Sarah HughesIt's true to say that the, uh, government we've had for a long time has, has done a huge amount in mental health, and we mustn't underestimate the shifts that we have seen over the last 10 years. What we're not saying is that we've got there, nor one party is better than the other, but what we want to see is a cross-government plan for mental health regarding— not disregarding whoever gets into power. We want to see the Mental Health Act legislation, um, implemented. We want to see parity of esteem in the funding that people get. We want to see the welfare system reformed. We want to see sickness benefits reformed as well so that people with mental illness can, you know, engage in employment in a fair, decent way. And so, um, we are working with all parties at the moment to, um, make sure that we get those missions into their manifestos, as every charity across the country, every, um, issue organization is doing the same. But we think that we've made progress in mental health. This is not the time to take your foot off the pedal. And so there's a pre— there's a lot of pressure, um, being applied to make sure that we have a government who has mental health at the heart of their manifestos.
Leanne ElliottWhat would it mean at a bigger picture? Because there's so many different, like, say, charities and appease organizations, causes, campaigns looking for funding. Why is mental health so important? What would the impact be on the general public, on society at large, if we were able to elevate the quality of mental health?
Sarah HughesWell, you know, the cost, the economic cost, um, to— so for the, for instance, in the workplace, uh, the cost of mental illness is around £56 billion a year. So the economic case is very strong. It's very strong in terms of if we don't invest in prevention and people, you know, people find out often if they have mental illness or they're going to experience mental illness before the age of 25. So as a result of that, you know, we know that if we could invest early, get people into services and support when they need it, we can get them back into thriving lives. So again, it's about You know, then people can become part of their communities. We can see relationships and the economy blooming. You know, it means everything. And the idea that physical and mental health are not equally important is something that I've never understood personally. You know, for me, I've always— it's always made sense to me that they're inextricably linked. But we do so much in terms of our policy and our funding decisions that separates them off. And as a result of that, we are disadvantaging the nation's mental and physical health. People with serious mental illness often die 20 years before everybody else. Um, and that is a global fact, but a fact in a country that has universal healthcare is one that shouldn't be happening.
Leanne ElliottYou're so passionate about mental health and advocating for change and making things better. I'm curious, Sarah, you said you're qualified social worker. I guess, why did you choose social work in the first place, and what made you transition into senior leadership?
Sarah HughesWell, it's funny actually, because, um, I, I— mental health is my life's work. And the reason being is because primarily I came from a family where, you know, people that I loved experienced mental illness. As I got older, I experienced my own mental illness. I still do at various points in my life. And so, I know deeply how poor mental health can just— it's like a nuclear bomb into families. It can be a nuclear bomb into your lives, but it can also bring great joy, empathy, compassion, knowledge, wisdom. And so with all of that together, I just felt like it was a natural place for me to be. And I've always worked in charities, and the reason why, again, is because I feel like it's closer to communities, it's closer to where people live and where it makes the most difference. And I guess going into senior leadership, I realized quite early on that there's probably not many people like me in leadership positions that hold their own lived experience so openly and maybe at the heart of their decision-making. So I thought I'd give it a go. And ever since, I've felt deeply committed. And even in the small wins, you know, I remember, for instance, during the pandemic, a group of charity leaders, we're sitting around and we're, you know, we're talking in our respective homes around the country. Thinking about the things that are important. And even just things like we had to lobby the government and we won to make sure that people with serious mental illness were in the early cohorts for the vaccine. And just knowing that we had done that, and that thing wouldn't have happened if we didn't do that bit of campaigning. So we know that in that act, in that kind of—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Sarah Hughesyou know, um, prioritising people's needs that we're able to make a difference. And, um, it's those things that drive me and, and, um, our local Minds and what we're doing and what we're seeing, the change we're making. It's all, it's all that counts, really.
Leanne ElliottWhy do you think senior leaders might be reluctant to share their lived experience, or is it that they haven't had any?
Sarah HughesI think it's very rare that people haven't had any. So, and I say that because it's not just about themselves. It could be in their families or, you know, workplaces, whatever. I think we've all got that experience. I think it's fear. I think it's fear about disclosing. We still carry a lot of shame about being ill, or there is still a stigma attached, no matter how well we talk about it in society. We are still vulnerable and I think open to people misunderstanding and so on. And so I think I understand the fear and I see more and more leaders speak about it all the time, both inside mental health and across the charity sector. I mean, you know, a friend of mine, Karen Bradshaw, who's Chief Executive of the Charity Finance Group, recently wrote a blog about saying, you know, I've just taken some time out because my mental health was bad. And, you know, I think that that is hugely— it's still a brave thing to do. And until it becomes a natural thing to do and we don't have to be so brave, I think more people will do it. But until then, it's still a bit scary.
Leanne ElliottAnd it is scary. And I think, you know, the backlash on social media that we see continues around mental health and particularly mental health of our people. You know, terms like snowflakes are used. People don't want to work very hard, or, you know, Gen Z just can't hack it anymore. What's your take on that? Are any of those sentiments justified?
Sarah HughesNo. And it's funny actually, because I've got, I've got my own Gen Z, I've got my own kid. And, um, we, you know, we have these discussions all the time and, uh, it's really, really interesting. And some of it is this kind of generational tension between expectations of each other. expectations in the workplace. And all these things are really evolving and we haven't got the language right. I mean, and the concept of being woke or not, being a snowflake or not, all of these terms are a way of dividing us. Because actually, you know, I get this sense from you as well that actually being woke is a good thing because actually essentially it means you know stuff and you're compassionate. That's what I think it means. But of course, it is weaponized. And so all of this language, I think we've got to work hard, certainly as a sector, as a leader, as a human being just out in the world, to not collude with it and just to kind of try and enter into discussion. Why are there differences between us rather than you are right and I'm wrong? This is an evolution. We're all learning. And I think, yeah, this war of words, this culture war around snowflakery is, I think it's a red herring.
Leanne ElliottA red herring?
Sarah HughesYeah, I think it's a red herring. I think it takes us away from actually focusing on what the issues are, which is social injustice. You know, that's actually what we're talking about. You know, not whether people care about the social injustice or not. Let's, let's get back to what we're trying to deal with. And it's a, it's a, yeah, part of the weaponization, I think, of society.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Sarah HughesWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Sarah HughesAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Sarah HughesSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the worlds of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Sarah HughesIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Sarah HughesI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Sarah HughesYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out.
Sarah HughesKeep that in.
Leanne ElliottI mean, in terms of social injustice, what are the, what are the kind of the areas that concern you most at the moment? And I guess I ask that question from the viewpoint of potentially business owners or leaders that might be listening. Why should they care about social injustice?
Sarah HughesWell, I think that, well, it's such a great question actually, because almost all of the, um, corporate organizations that we've worked with over the years have very much had this kind of creeping interest in the social justice agenda, which often is couched in equality and diversity and inclusion. But actually what we're talking about is fairness, is dignity, respect, equity. I just think people are ready for a bit more nuance. I think it's very difficult, the social media. If you were just having conversations on social media, then it would feel very divisive. But actually, when you're talking to people in communities, in businesses, that's what people want. People want to live thriving lives. And I think that when we are saying, well, that's great, but you know that many people are just about surviving, And they're just about surviving because they're living in poverty, or, you know, they're experiencing racism and discrimination that's, you know, exploding their mental health and causing all sorts of other consequences on their families, on their physical health. I think people, I think people care about that.
Leanne ElliottWhat can business owners do this year, the next 12 months, to really step up their efforts in terms of supporting mental health and, and well-being of their teams?
Sarah HughesSo we at Mind, we've got the Mental Health at Work commitments that we do in partnership with a lot of corporates. We run our mental health index so that people can sort of assess where they are in terms of, you know, whether they deliver on the mental health agenda or not. I think that it's, it's joining up with communities. So joining up with, you know, there are many workplace well-being Networks, so Mad World being one of them. There are many others. There is Mind Forward Alliance, there is Mental Health First Aid, there is what we do, and again, and there are others. And I think corporates being part of that, I think, is a start. Many corporate organizations are quite a long way on their journey, and I think that we should applaud some of our corporate partners for the progress that they've made. And I don't think we should underestimate that because I've seen astonishing progress in corporate world in a way that even some of our charity organizations would not have made. So I think it's being part of those networks, it's facing up to the truth of what goes on in your organizations, it's about understanding what your workforce needs and what they're saying. And I think This is becoming custom and practice, I think, in lots of places. And I wouldn't say it's a job done, but I think I've seen more progress than I would've thought.
Leanne ElliottAre there any particular examples of people you've seen in terms of best practice that you've been impressed with?
Sarah HughesI think there are organisations like John Lewis. I think that, you know, it's very famous for the support that they provide for their organisations. I think that Unilever as well, another organization very well known for all of the support that they deliver within their organization. So I think there are good examples and, you know, we can definitely share more of those. And we have award systems. And again, you know, many awards are offered to organizations. You can see it all the time in different places. And I think this is, This is a good thing. This is progress. Uh, it's not always performative. And I think sometimes people worry about that, but, um, you know, small steps can lead to big strides.
Leanne ElliottA lot of the, the kind of the, the grumblings we hear from, from business owners, particularly in SMEs, are that they have these EAP programmes in place, have lots of different support mechanisms, but employees aren't accessing the support. What advice would you give to a business owner that might be frustrated by that?
Sarah HughesI understand. I mean, and I think that partly, um, EAP services are really great, but often people will not feel like it's personalised enough to them. So I think sometimes that's the struggle with EAP, that it feels a little bit kind of general and, you know, not personal, et cetera. So I think that's some of the struggle. I think sometimes EAPs are not always culturally, um, appropriate, or they're not, you know, effective for people with neurodiversity. So sometimes it's about the quality of the offer, and, and that's not a denigration on EAP at all because I think it's very good practice to have one. But I think that sometimes, you know, um, we're all doing it at scale that we forget actually it's individuals that are accessing those support systems, and individuals have individual needs. So, so there's that. I also think we can't underestimate stigma. So again, whilst I would say a lot of progress has been made, I still think there are a huge number of people who would say, I am no way near ready to disclose my mental illness in the workplace. Um, I don't feel safe to do that. So, I think there's a combination of factors about why people don't access support, but I would urge organisations not to stop. What I would urge organisations to do is examine the offer and see if it's something else. And also, I think, and this is something, you know, ultimately, you can provide a lot of wellbeing support, but if people are still being overworked, Mm-hmm. or underpaid, um, you know, wellbeing support is not going to offset those. So sometimes the decision is, you know, can I pay my workforce a bit of a better wage, or do I invest in EAP? I think those things are for you to discuss with your workforce, especially if you're an SME.
Leanne ElliottThere was some research that came out this week. I'm not sure if you saw it, from Oxford University Wellbeing Research Centre, um, that found only 1 in 90 workplace wellness offerings appeared to actually be effective in boosting wellbeing. Um, I'm not sure if you've seen it. If you have or haven't, what's your— you did— what's your view on, on that?
Sarah HughesWell, I mean, in a way, I'm not, I'm not entirely surprised. I think there are some, you know, I mean, there are some things that I could sort of add in around the nuance of, of the research, but I think broadly It's right. You can't just drop in a wellbeing programme into a business and hope for the best because it's about everything else. It's essentially about the culture. It's about people's ability to disclose. It's about the quality of the offer of EAP and all of those sorts of things. It's fundamentally if people feel like they've got good work, that they're in a fair environment, That they've got good line management. Those are the things that I think I have seen make the biggest difference in wellbeing. So getting the basics right, I think above everything else has to be the priority.
Leanne ElliottDo you worry that, that some business leaders might just read the headlines or skip through the stories quoting that research and make assumptions?
Sarah HughesYes, I do, sadly. And I think that's the problem in You know, sort of research that is very, you know, clickbaitable in a way, because, you know, that headline was quite stark. And, you know, when you get into the detail, you can see all the nuance, but most people don't have a chance to do that really. So I'm quite sure, and in fact, I think we're quite confident in saying we're already seeing workplaces do that. And shift from a place of, well, it's not working, we'll pull back. Or yeah, so I mean, we're already seeing the impact of some of this narrative. That's not new.
Leanne ElliottSo even though this research was this week, there has been a growing kind of sort of questioning curiosity about the impact of wellbeing So if anyone's listening that might have just seen the headlines and assumed that wellness doesn't, doesn't work, then what, are there any particular points you'd want to, to point out to them?
Sarah HughesWell, I mean, I think wellness initiatives do work and they work for people's holistic health. The reality is, is that if you're considering wellness as a response to emerging mental illness, then that's not the right thing. And so I think it's about workplaces really understanding the difference between mental health and then when people become ill. So I think it's about growing your understanding and moving that literacy into a really much more sophisticated approach to supporting people's mental and physical health in the workplace. So wellness is important. I agree though that it's only part of the pie. that will make the tangible differences to people's working lives.
Leanne ElliottI want to ask you a bit more about your career, Sarah, if I can. And before I do, I noticed on your Twitter or X or whatever it's called now, that you described yourself as a sometimes annoying woman.
Sarah HughesYes.
Leanne ElliottHave I said that right? Yeah?
Sarah HughesYeah.
Leanne ElliottWhy?
Sarah HughesWell, I mean, it was in response, I think, was it Donald Trump who called somebody an annoying woman or somebody here? No, it was one of the politicians here. Anyway, There was a time when women who spoke out were being called annoying, and I think pretty much we still are called annoying. And I take pride in my sometimes being an annoying woman, partly because that social justice piece is very important to me as a human being. I feel deeply motivated by what I see happening in the world, what I experience myself. And, um, so yeah, sometimes I think I'm provocative. Uh, I say things sometimes I probably shouldn't say. Um, I've got a bit better at that as I've got older, but, um, still sometimes creeps out.
Leanne ElliottI like it. I've— my word was difficult.
Sarah HughesYes.
Leanne ElliottI might add that to my social profile. Sometimes difficult.
Sarah HughesSometimes difficult.
Sarah HughesYeah.
Sarah HughesAnd, you know, I mean, And this is the thing, women, when you are considered difficult, it's a really interesting way of closing you down. And I think by owning the fact that yes, we are difficult and disruptive because there's a necessity and I'm not going to allow that view to undermine the point that I'm making as a woman. And so yeah, I love, I've got a lot of annoying women friends and I think— They're the best type.
Leanne ElliottMe too. They are the best. And I wondered what you said there about, you know, being— what it's actually about being, um, you know, disruptive, and whether that's true of our, you know, the, the younger generation, the joining the workforce, our young workers, whether it's a similar thing. You know, we're being vocal and disruptive because we have to be.
Sarah HughesAbsolutely is. And I, I think, um, it's really interesting because obviously now I'm the boss, right? So I also have boss feelings sometimes about, you know, wishing things were just easier in the workplace. And I think that's a perfectly natural, you know, way of thinking. But I also remember what I was like when I entered the workplace and the amount of raised eyebrows that I would get around a table, you know, the amount of times that I was told off for not wearing a suit. The amount of times I got told off for having a tattoo or not talking properly or all of these kind of things. And I just think, so I resist as much of that as possible in terms of how I am now as the boss. But I also recognize that it's actually not that easy. You can't underestimate that generational transition. And I think it's only through having honest conversations and talking it through that, you know, that you can kind of get past the tension.
Leanne ElliottWomen continue to be underrepresented in leadership roles in the UK, globally. I mean, what's been your experience? Is it still very much a man's world?
Sarah HughesYeah, I'm afraid it is. And so we have a lot of women leaders in the charity sector, and I, I think that's True. I don't think we have a lot of diverse women in the charity sector. So, you know, um, uh, Black women leaders, disabled women leaders, I think, I, I think we're quite far away from that. But it's still heavily dominated, you know, in terms of, you know, funding institutions, who we, uh, talk to in terms of government, um, corporates, etc. So yes, it is. And I think we're fundamentally working in a Um, you know, I'm very much of the mind that we all work in kind of white supremacist sort of, uh, frameworks, which include very traditional views of men and women and leadership and the way we talk to each other and, you know, how we communicate on all sorts of different things. And so as a result of that, um, we're all operating in a way that challenges the idea of diversity in leadership. And we haven't dismantled it yet. We still bump up against it. So I recently spoke about being a working-class leader, and it's still a thing. It just is. And for us to say that it isn't is just not true.
Leanne ElliottThere's some frightening statistics I think released back end of last year, weren't there, about that in terms of the I can't remember numbers, but it's something insane, like 95% of Fortune 500 leaders are from the top 5% of public schools in the world or something.
Sarah HughesThat's right.
Leanne ElliottSomething to that effect.
Sarah HughesThere are, there are more chief executives that are called, I think it's David, in the UK than there are women.
Leanne ElliottI mean, is there, I mean, feminism is a, seems to be a problematic word sometimes. Do you think there's a place for feminism?
Sarah HughesYeah, so I'm a feminist leader. I'm very clear about what that means for me, which is about inclusivity. I'm gender inclusive. I believe that rights and justice and, yeah, so I believe in those things. I believe that if you can make it better for people on the margins, it makes it better for everybody. And so I feel, That, that is very much part of my core. I do think the language of feminism gets, um, locked into a different place that I, I don't really understand or try and engage in too much. You know, where I'm at is my leadership is about inclusion, is about understanding, uh, the environment in which we operate and responding accordingly.
Leanne ElliottHas there been any pivotal moments in your career, Sarah, that have shaped your approach to leadership?
Sarah HughesThere's been so many, so many. I think there's been experiences I've had with staff that have taught me loads. I became a very senior manager at a very young age. I was 23 when I managed my first residential home for women with personality disorder who, and it was a very tricky job, but it was one of the jobs that I've loved the most in my career and probably taught me the most about managing people, communication as a leader. That was definitely grounding. And I think since then, it's been working with legends. As I've become more senior, I've managed to work with some of the people that I've admired in my career for a very long time. And so I, you know, I learn from people that I've admired and I respect, you know, I do respect the people that have carved the way for me to be here. Uh, and, you know, I think that, yeah, there's more to be done, but effectively leadership is changing. And, um, but we mustn't forget what's been before.
Leanne ElliottWhat do our listeners need to understand about young Sarah to better understand the formidable leader that sits in front of us today?
Sarah HughesWell, young Sarah, oh, that's such a lovely question. I wrote a piece actually for Jonny Benjamin. He wrote a book, 2 books he's written, and the second one was basically, what would you say to your younger self? And I remember that basically what I would say is, This too shall pass. And it sounds like a really naff thing, right? But when I was young, I just, you know, there was so much going on. You know, I had periods of mental illness, you know, going off to university. I met my partner, my life partner when I was 18. We're still together 30 years later. You know, so young Sarah was just very ambitious, believed the world could be changed. Because I wanted it to. Old Sarah is still a bit like that. So I've definitely brought that into my life. I believe that I can make a difference, and I believe the work— people I work with can make a difference. The people that I care about can make a difference. But young Sarah, she was very bolshy, and I don't know that she entirely knew what she was walking into. But, um, I'm glad she did.
Leanne ElliottWas she sometimes difficult? No, sorry, sometimes annoying.
Sarah HughesOh, she was a bloody nightmare. Oh my God. I was, I was a very passive child apparently, because I, I also have ADHD and one of the symptoms that I have is dissociation. So when I was a child, I did a lot of that. Um, but when I was about 17, I suddenly came back into the room and that was a bit of a shock. It's everybody's system. I, you know, I'm nearly 50 now and I've spent 35 years working in mental health and, uh, I'm just incredibly proud of all of that time. And I started at the, you know, coalface and I'm just very proud that I've been able to see things at lots of different levels.
Leanne ElliottI want to ask you, I was talking to a colleague not long ago who was saying that Some of the young people she's working with are experiencing a lot of anxiety around the state of the world, whether it be politics or climate or mental health. And I imagine a lot of them are feeling that because they do want to drive change. They are, you know, expressing the similar things that young Sarah did. Is there any advice that you'd give to anybody who is feeling anxious about, about the state of things at the minute?
Sarah HughesDo you know, for sure. So firstly, I think that there is something about staying informed in the, from the right places. So I think part of, part of what I want people to do, especially young people, is create— for them to curate their input, you know, their social media feeds, so that they're getting good information about stuff. Because I think just this constant deluge of information can be very overwhelming, and getting accurate information about things can be very difficult to do. I think that we have to help our young people You know, because even though I was a staunch activist from a very young age, I didn't know half of what was going on in the world. But our young people know it all, and they're expected to care about it all. And I think we have to enable young people to find some sanctuary away from distress. And that is very difficult to do because We all want what's happening in the world to stop and, you know, all the bad stuff to stop. But I think that, you know, we need to enable our young people to self-care, to say, okay, you know, there is this that I'm going to focus on. But then there is the other thing that I think is very important, is actually to get involved in something. So, so it's, it's a kind of not the antithesis of me saying curate your feed and manage your self-care.
Sarah HughesYeah.
Sarah HughesIt's an extension of that really, because often engaging in campaigning or engaging with a community that is working on a project to look at X, Y, or Y is incredibly powerful and really good for your mental health because effectively we're social beings. So being with other people, even for those people who are introverts or who say they like being at home, we're effectively social beings that being with people on things that you care about, that things that you can do together, is, is a huge, huge mitigator of mental illness.
Leanne ElliottYou mentioned that mental health advocacy and work is your life's work, clearly your passion, and you're hugely proud, as you quite rightly should be. But I suspect you're not done yet. So what does the future hold for, for you and for Mind?
Sarah HughesWell, I think Mind and I, you know, we're a beautiful marriage. I love this organisation, have loved it for a long time, and believe that, you know, we do have a role in helping the nation through the next stage. But that's in, I think, in partnership with all sorts of different organisations. We're really keen on the government getting that cross-government plan. We're not satisfied with just having a health approach.
Sarah HughesYeah.
Sarah Hughesto mental health. This is an all-society deal. I think we want to see people able to access help when they need it. And I think that we are so far away from that in a way, but there is huge potential. And I think that we can drive some of that change. And there are lots of opportunities already appearing that might help us land that. And effectively, you know, ultimately, I believe that charities shouldn't exist. You know, that, that, that in, we should, as a nation, be able to live in perfect harmony with each other, with respect and dignity. And, you know, but, you know, until that point, we will keep fighting for fairness and dignity, respect, uh, people not to be discriminated on and that, and we just won't stop.
Leanne ElliottIf people want to find out more about Mind, support Mind, contribute to Mind's mission, where can they go and what types of things can they get involved in?
Sarah HughesOh my gosh, there's so much. So there's a number of things really. So we've got, uh, you can go to our pages, our web pages, and there's a whole ream of things. You can be an ambassador, you can be a fundraiser, you can be a campaigner, you can be one of our facilitators, you can join some of our volunteer programs, you can volunteer in our shops. Um, you know, you can do all sorts of things. You can Help us make sure that your workplace gets the mental health at work commitments. There are all sorts of things that people can do. It's not just all about donating a fiver. Although people donating a fiver is very, very welcome. But it's all about spreading the word of Mind, that piece about we can prevent some of the mental illness that we're seeing, and it's not impossible to provide people with good care. And, uh, you know, we want people to be sharing that message, get behind the movement, campaign, lobby their MP, tell their local, you know, commissioning group that fund all of the healthcare, you know, we want them to get involved, have their say, fight for mental health. You know, I think that, you know, without doubt, the difference that we've made to society as a whole mental health community, which is effectively built on the shoulders of people with lived experience, um, that, you know, we've spoken about mental health and we've increased the conversation, but now we really need to help people get to the next stage and not get locked into this kind of, you know, idea that, that mental health is just this and forget about people with more serious, enduring, life-threatening conditions.
Sarah HughesWe hope you enjoyed that conversation. Sarah brings such an important voice to the mental health conversation, especially when it comes to getting what workplaces get wrong and what they need to rethink.
Leanne ElliottYeah, we hope you got as much out of that as we did. And, and what really stuck with me from the conversation is how Sarah does really cut through the noise. She's not here for the box ticking or surface level wellbeing stuff. She is really challenging us to think harder about what's actually going on in our workplaces, how we're supporting people, what assumptions we're making about serious mental illness. And whether the culture we're creating is really helping anyone.
Sarah HughesIf you wanna learn more about Mind or check out the resources, we've added the details to the show notes. And if you like the unfiltered interview feel, then go back to episodes, I think they're 161 to about 166, and you'll hear our unedited versions of interviews with cool people like Dr. Ryan Martin, Professor Sir Ceri Cooper, and Bruce Daisley. Just a reminder, we're back next week as normal with a brand new guest interview. Back on YouTube as well, so make sure you're following us in your podcast app. If you want to join the conversation, you can find all our contact details in the show notes. We really genuinely do love hearing from you.
Leanne ElliottWe do, and if anyone has sent a message or an email over the last week and for whatever reason didn't get some kind of out-of-office response, soz wasn't ignoring you, wasn't ghosting you, just been on the holidays.
Sarah HughesYes, thank you so much for listening. We are having a whale of a time in Spain, or we're not. We'll tell you about it if we're not when we get back, and we'll see you next time. Bye-bye. Bye.