Episode 196 · 13 May 2025 · 50:24
Does your CEO have Big Toddler Energy? PLUS! Touching grass, accidental bullies and hiring mistakes, with Stuart Mace - This Week in Work, 13th May 2025
Featuring Stuart Mace
Does your CEO have Big Toddler Energy? PLUS! Touching grass, accidental bullies and hiring mistakes, with Stuart Mace - This Week in Work, 13th May 2025
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Intro and what's coming up
News Roundup: Touching grass
news roundup#news#workplace#touching-grass
Toddlers vs CEOs: Emotional regulation
news roundup#emotional-regulation#leadership#toddlers#ceos
Bullying at work: Bad management, not bad people
news roundup#bullying#management#workplace-culture
Hot Take: Stuart Mace on candidate experience
Stuart's story: The job he was relieved not to get
news roundup#job-search#rejection#personal-story
Why bad hiring experiences happen
news roundup#hiring-process#candidate-experience#recruitment
Top 3 takeaways from Stuart
news roundup#takeaways#advice#career
Workplace Surgery: Freelancers and sick clients
workplace surgery#freelancing#clients#workplace-advice
Workplace Surgery: Surviving a toxic job
workplace surgery#toxic-workplace#survival#career-advice
Workplace Surgery: Scared to manage people
workplace surgery#management#training#fear#leadership
Show notes
Does Your CEO Have Big Toddler Energy? — with Stuart Mace
Guest: Stuart Mace — former recruiter turned workplace wellbeing specialist, with nearly two decades on both sides of the hiring table.
Your hiring process says more about your company than your careers page ever will. So why do so many organisations still ghost candidates, write vague job specs, and take weeks to reply?
Stuart joins Al and Leanne to explain why candidate experience is a window into the soul of your organisation — and why how you treat people during recruitment is exactly how you'll treat them once they're through the door. He shares the story of the job he was relieved not to get, the 19-minute response that made him feel like a human being, and the simple fixes that turn a messy hiring process into a brand-builder.
Plus in the news roundup: why "touching grass" is genuinely good for your brain, whether CEOs have the emotional regulation of toddlers, and new research suggesting bullying at work is a systems problem, not a personality problem.
And in the Workplace Surgery: should freelancers ask clients to tell them when they're sick? How do you survive a toxic job when you can't afford to leave? And will a course actually help if you're scared of managing people?
🧠 News Roundup
1. Touch grass: why getting outside is actually good for your brain National Geographic explores the science behind outdoor time and cognitive restoration. Turns out "touch grass" isn't just Gen-Z slang — there's real evidence that disconnecting from the digital world and reconnecting with the physical one does something genuine to your brain. Read →
2. Toddler vs CEO: who actually has more emotional regulation? A viral tweet draws comparisons between toddler tantrums and CEO outbursts — and the results are both hilarious and thought-provoking. Al and Leanne unpack why powerful people often behave like toddlers, from made-up words to replies that make no sense. Tweet →
3. Bullying at work: new research blames bad management, not bad people New research from the Journal of Occupational Health Psychology suggests bullying is often a structural problem, not a behavioural one. Leanne shares insights from her Medium article on why broken systems — not broken people — are driving workplace bullying. Read →
🔥 Hot Take of the Week: Stuart Mace on Candidate Experience
Stuart Mace spent nearly two decades as a recruiter and now works in workplace health and wellbeing. His hot take: how you're treated throughout the recruitment experience is a window into the soul of your company.
Stuart shares the time he was relieved not to get a job — a process so bad it made him question the whole organisation — and contrasts it with a recent experience where a company responded within 19 minutes and made him feel like a human being.
His message to hiring teams: ghosting, vague role definitions, and slow comms quietly destroy your employer brand. And to candidates: if a company gives you the ick during the process, trust it — because it'll only get worse once you're in the door.
Top 3 takeaways from Stuart:
- Just talk to people. If someone's putting time and effort into applying, they deserve communication. Silence is a decision — it just isn't a good one.
- Speed signals respect. A 19-minute response shouldn't be remarkable, but it is. Fast, human communication sets you apart.
- Look at potential, not just past experience. Hiring for what someone could do — not just what they've already done — opens doors for great people who'd otherwise be filtered out.
More from Stuart Mace: LinkedIn →
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Freelancers: "Should I ask clients to tell me when they're sick? I keep catching their bugs and losing income."
- Toxic work: "How do I survive a toxic job when I can't afford to leave?"
- Management fears: "I'm scared to manage people. Would a course help me get over that?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottCould well-meaning managers be bullying their teams without even realising it? Well, new research suggests workplace bullying isn't just about difficult personalities. It's often the result of broken systems. From performance reviews to workload decisions, everyday processes may be causing more harm than we think.
Al ElliottAnd if your hiring process is slow, messy, or makes people feel like a number, It matters. This week's hot take explores why recruitment is one of the clearest reflections of your company culture and how smart companies are getting it right.
Leanne ElliottAnd in the Workplace Surgery, should freelancers ask clients to tell them when they're sick? One self-employed listener got ill on a job and wants to know where the boundary should be when it comes to protecting your health.
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals, of course.
Leanne ElliottMy name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name is Al, and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures. We'll be getting straight into today's episode right after a very quick word from our sponsors.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems, And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Stuart MaceNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. It's Leanne's favourite time of the week.
Leanne ElliottIt is.
Al ElliottWhat time is it, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottIt's Anthony's Roundup.
Al ElliottYeah, let's cue that jingle. Okay, love, what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottI have a new word.
Al ElliottGo on.
Leanne ElliottIt's 2, actually.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottYou ready?
Al ElliottYes, go.
Leanne ElliottTouching grass.
Al ElliottOh, Christ. Okay, touching grass. Do you know what? That seems to me like it's, you need to have a little bit of time to yourself, so you go out into nature, you sit and touch grass. By the way, I used to know a guy. I'm not going to give you any details just in case he's listening, but he used to know a guy who was he was really hippie, but really cringy hippie. Like yeah, so this weekend I just went out there and I just sat and put my hands in the soil for three hours just so I could ground myself again. Anyway, bit of a whang. Anyway, carry on, Lee.
Leanne ElliottWell, that may have been right.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottYeah, because this comes from an article in the National Geographic by Stacy Colino. And yeah, you're right; it literally means touching grass. It's in like the green stuff.
Al ElliottNot like the—
Leanne ElliottNot that stuff. No, not that. Not that stuff.
Al ElliottThat'd be— that's a weird thing for someone on audio to understand. I won't go into it. Just watch the YouTube, you'll see what I mean.
Leanne ElliottBut yes, touching grass means disconnecting from the digital world and reconnecting with the physical one. So psychologist Holly Ann Passmore, who leads the Nature, Meaning and Life Research Lab at Concordia University— yes, that is real— says we often underestimate how much nature impacts our mental health, and the evidence backs her up. So getting into green space has been shown to lower blood pressure and cholesterol, reduce the risk of conditions like diabetes, asthma, heart disease, and stroke, and even lower overall mortality. It's also been linked with better memory, sharper attention, and improved mood. Pretty impressive for just a little blade of green stuff. The article even highlights that some doctors now prescribe time outdoors as part of a treatment plan because the benefits are so well documented. So Al, tell me, when did you last touch grass?
Al ElliottTouch ass, did you say?
Leanne ElliottOr grass?
Al ElliottGrass.
Stuart MaceGrass.
Leanne ElliottVery different.
Al ElliottVery different thing.
Leanne ElliottEspecially in the workplace.
Al ElliottWe dodged that one, didn't we, Lee? Oh, I don't know. Do you know what? We do spend a lot of time outside. We're lucky in that, regular listeners will know, we live in Herzegovina. It's part of Bosnia and Herzegovina, a little country near Croatia. So it is beautiful for a lot of the day, a lot of the year. We do spend a lot of time outside. I don't think I've ever touched grass. I think the nearest I got was when I picked up some dog mess that someone, that some little ginger hound had done on our lawn. But no, see, I do get this as a concept. I know that if I go out for a walk with the dogs and I go out into a wood, for example, like Leanne and I yesterday, we're gonna talk more about this in a second, but Leanne and I have been on holiday. Yesterday, I took her for a little picnic into the woods. It's gonna sound like it's gonna get a bit weird, isn't it? Into the woods. And it was really lovely by a stream and it was just birds and you couldn't hear cars. And that was really nice. It felt like it was a lovely way to end our holiday. So yes, I'm 100% behind this. Not behind the word because I think that's a bit wanky, but I'm 100% behind it.
Leanne ElliottYeah. I mean, it's very similar to forest bathing, I guess, isn't it?
Al ElliottThat's the worst word.
Leanne ElliottIs that worse than touching grass?
Al ElliottWell, it's the same, to quote Joey.
Leanne ElliottOkay. Getting into nature. Yeah, it's, um, it's quite convincing, isn't it? It's quite convincing, the research. Um, and I think what was also really highlighted nicely by this article, and I will leave a link in the show notes as always, is that it kind of talked about how wellbeing through this lens can also be something that an employer can help with. So kind of small businesses, um, can actually have a big impact on wellbeing without needing too much of a budget. So it offered things, different ways you could do it. So one was take one-to-ones or catch-ups outdoors. Add real plants to your workspace. They've been shown to reduce stress and support focus. Create protected screen-free breaks where staff are encouraged to step outside just for 10 minutes. And if your team is remote, give people permission to take walking meetings or start their day with some time outside. Of course, you can't replace actual wellbeing and mental health support with potted plants, but it is a reminder that these small moments in nature can actually have a measurable impact.
Al ElliottInteresting. Like Leanne says, don't just go and go to IKEA and buy like 5 potted plants. It's not going to work. You need to have some intention behind that. But yeah, I kind of see that. Don't like the word, like the concept.
Leanne ElliottWhat have you seen this week, Al?
Al ElliottI saw a great post on Twitter by Peter Steinberg. He's Stipeet is his handle. That's a cool name. Yeah. Um, and, uh, he's actually quite a cool guy. Um, if you go and look at his profile, you'll see what he's doing. He's doing some really cool stuff. He's really into vibecoding at the moment. Now, this was an image of toddler versus CEO. And basically what— you might have seen this on LinkedIn, but basically it's got like things that toddlers say and CEOs say that are the same thing. Now, we don't have kids, but we've got plenty of nieces and nephews thanks to, uh, to, uh, my brother and my sister. For producing those. So it kind of, kind of still resonates.
Leanne ElliottNot together, we should add.
Al ElliottOh God, yeah. No, no, no, no.
Leanne ElliottSeparately with different partners.
Al ElliottWell, the truth lies in work. Will we keep it in the family? All right, so thank you for that, that very, very important clarification there. So this, it kind of still does resonate, but hopefully this isn't you if you are a CEO. So I'll try a few out on the, on you, Leanne. So the first one is a toddler and a CEO both blurt out random opinions that are treated as gold.
Leanne ElliottYep.
Al ElliottYep.
Stuart MaceTotally.
Leanne ElliottAnd probably publish a book about it.
Al ElliottYeah, that's so true. They use special made-up words.
Leanne ElliottLike, like touching grass.
Al ElliottTouching grass. Oh my God. So cringey. God, if you, if, if this resonates with you, then don't worry. We're gonna, I'm gonna ask Leanne shortly why CEOs tend to use, tend to have this behaviour. Um, so then they ask you to drop something, to do something, then change their mind completely 5 minutes later. This one made me chuckle. Throws a tantrum if she doesn't get what she wants. So many CEOs.
Leanne ElliottMaybe occasionally.
Al ElliottI mean, Musk, Musk, excuse me. Um, anyway, replies with answers that make no sense. Now this is a big one. I think there's a, there's So many cartoons on Twitter or X or Twix or whatever we're calling these days. And then collects and quickly discards expensive toys. Um, the last one here I thought, which I thought was really good, was interrupts every conversation to share his own tangentially related thoughts. That's what kids do, isn't it? You're talking about cheese and they'll go, I like cake. It's like, well, dude, I know you, I know you're 18 months, 2 years, but I'm talking about you. I want to talk about cheese anyway. Leigh, why do some CEOs act like this? Can they not— have they not got the, the prescience to understand that this is just not really a cool way to act?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Is that it? No, I think if we— I mean, I don't, I don't know. It's the first time that I've, I've kind of heard this, but what would my thoughts be on the psychology of it? Um, most entrepreneurs are extroverts. They tend to say a lot of their thoughts out, out loud before they Introverts process first and then speak. Extroverts speak and then sometimes process if they've got time. Um, a lot of, um, entrepreneurs are neurodiverse with ADHD, um, on the autism spectrum, communicate differently. Neurodiverse, um, people, um, particularly with a sense of urgency and a need to, to get things out because they process faster. They're, they're lightning speed in terms of of analysis and processing depending on what, what type of neurodiversity they might have. So it's just, it's, it's, they need to move at that pace. We're just, we're just the slow ones who can't keep up. So yeah, that's probably the 2 obvious ones. And I think as well that typically these people are probably quite low on what we'd call agreeableness, which is one of the Big 5 personality traits. And that's kind of like how compliant you are, basically.
Stuart MaceMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo I'm quite compliant. I quite like rules and a system. I like science. It's not really a shocker that I want to understand the rules of the game so I can play it. Whereas entrepreneurial mindsets and personalities tend to be lower on this. They want to break the rules, they want to make their own rules, they want to do it again with that sense of urgency and excitement. So yeah, there's a few different things that would feed into why I'm sure a lot of these things are kind of ringing true.
Al ElliottYeah. And I suppose there's also an element of ego, of, um, protecting your position of, you know, if someone, if someone's not particularly confident, but they're a CEO, they need to make sure that everyone knows that they're the smartest person in the room, which, by the way, I think is the opposite you should be as a CEO. I think you should be the most stupid person in the room, but you're just very good at making a great room for intelligent people. Um, so maybe there's this element of them just looking to, looking to look intelligent. And so we've always said this and we teased this the other week and we still haven't, we still haven't talked about who I was talking about, but the person who uses long words when When, when short words will, will do. Um, yes, and they, in my opinion, are not particularly intelligent, and they're using those words to appear intelligent.
Leanne ElliottNarcissism is another personalised trait that, um, entrepreneurs— this person incidentally, um, scored quite high on. Um, so yes.
Al ElliottYou do know who I'm talking about?
Leanne ElliottI know. Well, you told me afterwards.
Al ElliottOh, did I tell you? I forgot I told you.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, you told me.
Al ElliottOh, I forgot I told you.
Stuart MaceBut yeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, so yeah, lots of reasons, but yeah, it's, um, It's a good post. I like that. If I was on the Twitter, I would follow said person, but I can't do anything that's associated with Elon Musk in any way.
Al ElliottNo, fair enough. And to be fair, it is on LinkedIn.
Leanne ElliottOh, then I'll follow him on LinkedIn.
Al ElliottSo the original one has got like a little sort of trademark stamp on it called thecooprview.com. I'm not sure the people who made that domain really thought about it because it's got 2 Os and 2 Rs. It's very difficult to read. The Cooper Review. I think that's what it actually looks like. Maybe it's the Cooper Review. Maybe it's not the Co-op Review, it's the Cooper Review. I apologise. Take it all back. Sorry, Cooper. Sorry. Sorry. No, very good review. Very good domain. The original link is on there and in the show notes. Leanne, I want to ask you about your 3rd article, but just really quickly, the last week has been freaking glorious.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottBeing in Spain.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottWe've lived in southern Spain for about 4 years, so, and we've lived in most of the major cities for about A month at least, if not longer. So we were very, very comfortable with southern Spain, but northern Spain was very different. So first of all, if you wanna go to northern Spain, oh my God, go to Zaragoza. One of our favourite words to say, Zaragoza. Go to Zaragoza and get some, some, some croquettes. Then go to Logroño, which is just the most amazing place.
Leanne ElliottIt's like Disney, Disneyland for foodies.
Al ElliottYes, it is exactly that. And then also Uh, consider San Sebastián. And where did we not go to?
Leanne ElliottBilbao. Um, and we opted instead to spend a bit longer in Girona, which I'm very glad we did, actually.
Al ElliottBut the point of this was not necessarily to talk about food, even though— although, Leanne, I've measured myself, only put on 3 pounds in 7 days.
Leanne ElliottNice.
Al ElliottThat's not bad considering we spent the entire time eating and drinking. But we said we're not going to talk about work when we, when we took off in the plane. We're not going to talk about work. And I thought we'd last about 24 hours, but we didn't. We lasted like 5 days, I think, was the first time we talked about it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, we did.
Al ElliottAnd then we got back about midnight last night to our house in Bosnia, in Herzegovina, near Mostar, and we sat there for 2 hours and it just almost like it ticked over to Tuesday as a workday and we were just so full of ideas and stuff we wanted to do. So if you are thinking of taking a break—
Leanne Elliott2:10, I went to bed.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOh my God. But if you, if you're thinking, my point is, I think, which is laboured by the way, there's a horse down here that I'm flogging. Um, but the book—
Leanne ElliottI don't think you can do that anymore. Truth be told.
Al ElliottIt's dead. The horse is dead. Don't worry. In, in the analogy, the horse is not alive. Um, but is, is that if you go away, when you come back, you have the most amazing ideas. You have the most amazing energy to get back into it. So if you are feeling burnt out and you have the opportunity and you're privileged enough to be able to take a few days away, take a few days away, but don't take business books with you. Don't go and chat about work. Don't answer emails. Don't, don't even look at your, your YouTube analytics, which I didn't bully Andy.
Leanne ElliottAt the airport on the way home.
Al ElliottFair enough.
Leanne ElliottFair enough. But I have no self-discipline. I deleted my Gmail and my LinkedIn.
Al ElliottAnd then you realised that you deleted your Gmail and all our hotel reservations were sitting there.
Leanne ElliottI did have to reinstall it, but I set it to a different inbox.
Al ElliottAnyway, Leigh, what else you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottWell, sorry to dampen the mood after the holiday chat. Bullying.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottI know. It was a really interesting study that basically asked, could well-meaning managers be bullying their teams without even realising it? So workplace bullying is usually framed as one person just being awful to another one, like a personality clash or some kind of toxic behaviour. Well, this new study says that is not really the full story. It's just been published in the Journal of Occupational Health Psychology.
Al ElliottThe JOHP.
Leanne ElliottThe JOHP. The JOHP.
Stuart MaceJOHP.
Leanne ElliottJOHP. Um, and the researchers argue— that's a serious topic, Al.
Al ElliottSorry, sorry, sorry. Go on.
Leanne ElliottThe researchers argue that bullying at work is often a structural problem Not a behavioral one. Bear with me. They looked at 5,500 pages of formal bullying complaints, so real-world data.
Al ElliottYou like that?
Leanne ElliottI love that. Then they also ran interviews and a field study, and what they found was kind of huge. The way that people are managed, the systems and processes themselves, not the people, can actually create the conditions for bullying.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so it's done in 3 parts. First, they analysed the bullying complaints, um, then they looked at kind of where in the management process things were, were breaking down, and then used that data to kind of create a checklist to measure what good and bad people management looked like. Um, so what they found was that bullying isn't random. It tends to happen in very specific situations. So things like performance reviews, workload allocation, underperformance processes, Um, so scheduling, like your rostering, and even how managers handle relationships. And one of the biggest triggers was managing underperformance. In 42% of complaints, that was a central issue. And it wasn't always about being mean. It was more about vague feedback, sudden formal meetings, or unrealistic targets. They also found that even basic admin, like shift scheduling or how leave is handled, could cause problems if it's done without fairness. Consistency or explanation. In the psychology world, this is what is called procedural justice, organizational justice. Other management practices that were likely to report, um, being bullied was job demands or team climate. The good news is it also showed what helps. So teams with clear expectations, fair rostering, regular feedback, and good communication had lower bullying exposure, even when working in high-stress environments. So the biggest takeaway is this, Al: if we want to prevent bullying, we need to stop thinking about it as a personality issue and actually look at how people are being managed or mismanaged. To put it in a short, snappy little sentence for you, if you want to reduce bullying, train your managers.
Al ElliottWow. Now, playing devil's avocado for a second, 42% of people, of the bullying cases were people who were being, who were underperforming. Is it possible that if someone's underperforming, then rather than actually go get back to where they should be doing what, what they should be doing, they might just go, oh, it's not fair. You know, you can't fire me. I'm getting bullied. And it's more of a sort of like a protection against getting fired. Is, do you know what I'm trying to say?
Leanne ElliottYeah, there is potentially a, a case for that. I think for, you know, to get to a formal complaint. Arguably, there was enough kind of even suggested evidence for that to be lodged potentially. But yes, and, and the researcher did admit this, that it was based on people's reported experience rather than verified legal outcomes. Um, but either way, the, the pattern was very, very clear. Um, it wasn't just about the bad behavior, it was about the broken system. So people were were referencing meetings, performance meetings being organised at last minute, about getting vague feedback, about being— leave requests and how that was handled. There was so much referencing. And what psychologists do in transactional analysis is when we look at kind of what we call qualitative data, which is words basically rather than numbers, is psychology will create a coding system.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo they can look for patterns within that data. And don't forget, this is over 5,000 pages of qualitative data. So they've gone into that and really found that this pattern is prolific. And within those reports, what's being referred to is the system, not the behaviour of how that system was executed.
Al ElliottThat makes sense. That makes sense. Great. Okay, so I'm guessing the link will be in the show notes as always, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottIt will.
Al ElliottYes, superb. Okay, thank you very much for that. I feel like I've learned something today. I like it. I like it. So after this really, really short break, we're going to be joined by Stuart Mace, who spent 17 years as a recruiter before moving into workplace wellbeing and now believes that your recruitment process is a window into your company's soul. See you in 60 seconds.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same We actually have a lot in common.
Al ElliottWe both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals. Seamless.
Al ElliottSeamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. If you are a regular listener, you'll know that every week we bring on a workplace expert to share their hot take on the world of work. Today, we're talking about recruitment and specifically candidate experience.
Al ElliottYeah, our guest today has been on both sides of the table. Stuart Mace spent nearly 2 decades as a recruiter and then moved into workplace wellbeing, and most recently, he's now got back onto the job market himself.
Leanne ElliottWhich means he's seen the recruitment process From every angle. And let's just say he has noticed some serious red flags that most candidates have been conditioned to accept as normal.
Al ElliottYeah, Stuart's now on a mission to call out all these bad habits on LinkedIn, the ones that sort of quietly repel these amazing candidates and spotlight what really great companies are doing right.
Leanne ElliottActually, Stuart reached out on LinkedIn after we talked about candidate experience in a previous episode. So we thought, let's get him on and dig into the good, the bad, and the downright weird of modern recruitment. Let's go meet Stuart Mace.
Stuart MaceI'm Stuart Mace. I currently work in the workplace health and wellbeing space for about the last 3 to 4 years, having had a 17-year career in recruitment. And prior to that, I was working in health and fitness.
Al ElliottYou are quite a spicy guy, but you've got something specific you want to talk, get off your chest today. So what is your hot take?
Stuart MaceYou mentioned potentially a pod on candidate experience. And having been on the other side of the table as a recruiter for, as I mentioned, too many years, I'm now looking for work and have been since I decided a career change.
Al ElliottYeah.
Stuart MaceMy hot take is that how you're treated throughout the recruitment experience is a window into the soul of the recruiter. And the organization can tell you a lot about an organization and how they treat their workforce.
Al ElliottHave you been in a situation where you've gone, ooh, this is not good, and therefore I don't want to pursue this?
Stuart MaceI was actually relieved once where I didn't get offered a job. In fact, it's more than once, but one time springs to mind when I was in the same recruitment process but was rejected 3 times for the same job in the same recruitment process. And when I did get to final stage and I was told I hadn't got the job, I was actually relieved. Um, but I've also had other experiences where I've gatecrashed somebody else's interview because the recruiter has given me the same link through Teams, uh, as the other candidate, uh, interviewing. Uh, and when I've joined the interview 3 minutes early, the previous candidate is still interviewing. This is pretty recent. I tried to get hold of a recruiter 48 hours. They gave me 48 hours notice of an interview and to prepare a 20-minute presentation. And I had questions. I tried to get hold of the recruiter throughout that 48 hours by email and by phone. I didn't hear from the recruiter until I was actually on the interview. And the recruiter phoned me twice whilst I was interviewing with the time that they had set up. And I then phoned the recruiter after the interview. And I still haven't heard from that person 4 months on.
Leanne ElliottWow.
Stuart MaceBut having said that, there have been some good experiences along the way.
Al ElliottWell, tell us about those.
Stuart MaceSo one of which has been fairly recent, which was an organization where, or the process, should I say, where it just made you feel empowered that you wanted to work for them. And it really is something which I think is not too difficult to do. And I think there's You know, there's some sort of synergy here to dating, dare I say it. And I think your guest a couple of months ago, or you had on, is it John Turnoff, mentioned this when it comes to looking at sort of how you put your best foot forward and display and make that other person or make the candidate experience or the recruitment journey feel empowering and that you want to be with that organization. So, the application process was fairly simple. And I think that's something we need to sort of look at because it can be You know, very laborious and time-consuming for sometimes for no reward. But this process was literally a 3-minute process where you could obviously update, upload your CV, but it gave you an opportunity to give a 2-minute video of yourself and why they want, why they should hire you, or they wanted to learn a little bit about you as an individual, which I quite enjoyed and thought that was quite different. So I looked at doing that. Response was really swift. Within, within 19 minutes, I was selected by the recruiter to, to have a call with the recruiter, which I did. Very professional documents that came across telling me about the organization. Recruiter was very professional from a point of view of made me feel relaxed, quite at ease. We had some small talk, but they asked pertinent questions with regards to what I could do for the organization as opposed to what I have done in the past, which I thought was a good take. It did involve then looking at doing some psychometric testing, verbal reasoning and numerical reasoning, which again, there are things that I do like. I understand some people don't enjoy those, and obviously reasonable adjustments can be made, but I do find them quite intriguing. I got the results directly, so I knew what score I had, so there was nothing hidden.
Al ElliottYeah.
Stuart Maceknow if there was a pass mark or not, but I was told that I sailed through and that I'd smashed it and that I could then have that interview with the hiring manager. And all this was done within 8 days of me applying for the job. And again, the hiring manager, his first question to me was, tell me about yourself, which was again something I enjoy because it's not necessarily a competency-based interview. Tell me about your, you know, about what you've done in a working environment. They were more interested in, uh, in who I was and what, um, what my, um, motivations and, uh, and passions were. So there are some, yeah, there are some good experiences, but I generally find they're more bad than good.
Al ElliottSo as someone who's been on both, both ends of this, you said at the beginning, why do bad experiences exist? If, if, if you know how to do a good job, why are people not doing a good job?
Stuart MaceI think there's an element there of culture, not being held accountable. And I, you know, as I said, I've been through the process from the other side of the table and I can see where mistakes are being made by recruiters. And I wonder if it's training or is it just competence or they just don't care. A lot of recruiting is now automated.
Al ElliottYeah.
Stuart MaceAnd it's like, it's sifted out with the, you know, and A lot of AI is doing the work, and then the recruiter is literally someone who's dotting i's and crossing t's.
Leanne ElliottIt's so easy to just think recruitment is the process, isn't it? It's like, you put in the job advert, you run some interviews, you pick somebody. But Stuart makes a really important point that it is as much about this candidate experience. It's one of the most telling parts about your culture. If it's, you know, how you treat people in that process should be reflective of how you treat people when they work for you. If it's not good, you're not setting off on the right foot.
Al ElliottYeah, totally. And we always talk about this sort of balance of the job market. Everyone's like, oh, who's, who's, who's got the power? Is it the employers? Is it employers' market or employees' market? It doesn't really matter because if your process is messy or cold or just a bit weird, the best people will take one look and think, nope, this is not for me.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And it's the actions, isn't it, that people— it's that Is it Maya Angelou quote? People won't remember the things that you said or did, they're going to remember how you made them feel. And it's just, it's so true. That is what stays with us, is how people treat us and how that, how we react to that emotionally. Um, you know, you can have the lovely About Us page telling them about all your values, but really the only way people are going to know for sure if those values are true is if they see it in every interaction they have with you.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. So Just quickly then, the top 3 things we're taking away from Stuart's story. Leanne, what are they?
Leanne ElliottNumber 1, just talk to people. Communicate. If someone's putting the time and effort into applying for a role, the bare minimum is acknowledging that. You know, if you can give them feedback, candidates know that you are entitled legally in the UK under the Freedom of Information Act to request any information gathered on you during an interview process. So, if people are refusing to give you feedback, you do have a chance to get it. Employers, answer their questions, show them that you're actually interested in them joining the organisation. Um, and 2, just make the process human. And I know I use that word a lot recently, but you know, that company who asks for a 2-minute video instead of some epic application form, um, you know, at least they're doing something different. They're looking to actually meet the person behind the form. Um, you know, show us who you are. And don't just make us jump through all the hoops.
Al ElliottYeah. And they got back to him within 19 minutes. I mean, that's, that's not normal. And I don't understand why it shouldn't be normal because that's, if you've got a sales lead for someone that we're talking about hiring someone who's £60,000, £70,000 a year, it's a big investment. It's imagine if a customer came to you and said, I want to give you 60 grand. And then you, you, you took 4 weeks to go back to them and say, are you still interested in that? Just wouldn't happen.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think finally, it's look at potential, not just past experience. And this is a big theme in Adam Grant's book, Hidden Potential, which is brilliant. So, rather than kind of the generic, tell me about yourself questions, you want to be looking at either competency-based questions or situational-based questions, which is basically when you say, tell me about a time when you did X. So, it does open the door to somebody who's not just kind of repeating the same experience you're looking for, but has got the potential to really Um, excel in that job.
Al ElliottSo remember, if you are job hunting right now, Stuart says how a company treats you during the process is exactly how they'll treat you once you're inside.
Leanne ElliottYep, and if they ghost you, mess you around, or give you the ick, for lack of a better word, um, it's probably not a one-off. It's probably the culture. Believe it, move on.
Al ElliottSo if you're hiring, take a good hard look at your processes from the candidate's point of view. Like Stuart said, it's a window into your soul, which was quite beautiful. Uh, depending— I think it was Nietzsche originally said that about the eyes, but Uh, well, we'll give Stuart a break on this one. Um, you can find Stuart on LinkedIn, just search for Stuart Mace. He's the one with the green heart emoji. And if you're building a health and wellbeing team, maybe think about having a chat with him. He seems to know what he's doing. Decent guy.
Leanne ElliottAnd now, Al, I believe it's time for your favourite time of the week.
Al ElliottIt is. It's time for our world-famous weekly workplace surgery. I almost said it's— I've had a holiday. I've had a holiday. It's time for our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. We've got 3 really good ones today. Just in case it's your first time and you haven't worked it out, Leanne is a workplace psychologist. She's a business psychologist, organizational psychologist, you call it in America, I think. Basically, she's a genius in my mind, and she knows everything about everything about work. So we're gonna put these questions to her there. Question number 1, should freelancers ask clients to tell them when they're sick? Now, this one actually comes from an audience comment from one of the amazing Dr. Audrey Tang's Mental Health Matters show. Audrey shared it on LinkedIn looking for insights, uh, which is, which is what's cool about Audrey. She doesn't say, I know all the answers. She's like, what do you guys think? So as self-employed people ourselves, we thought we'd have a little crack at it. So the original comment question was this: I'm self-employed and my work is in other people's houses, plumbing. I was off sick for 3 weeks after catching a virus when I went into a house to do work and the owners were both off sick, but they didn't tell me. Audrey added, being self-employed myself, I know how important it is to stay healthy. When you are ill, it's not just the symptoms, it's rescheduling work, losing income, and there's no sick pay cushion. Personally, I really resent it when my health is compromised, and I always tell my team, please don't power through. Audrey then asks this key question: should freelancers be more upfront about asking clients, colleagues, or even friends and families to let them know if they're unwell? Or is it just common courtesy to stay at home when, and take precautions when you're sick? So I think what we're summarising here is that this plumber inadvertently went to a house where people were ill, and then he got ill, and subsequently he took 3 weeks, had to take 3 weeks off work, unpaid, obviously. So should the, should the clients have told this plumber that they were ill and potentially they could have given him something or her something?
Leanne ElliottYeah, that's it. So what do, what do you think, Al? You've been self-employed for a long time.
Al ElliottThis is a specific situation. I think since COVID pre-COVID, everyone were like, No. What are you talking about? Well, I'm not gonna do that. Now, post-COVID, it's not on— it's not a stupid thing to say, to text someone on the day and just go, right, coming over to your house to, to do some plumbing. Just wanna check that you're not ill or anything. I, maybe you say, I was ill with COVID and now I pick up things quickly. Or perhaps you say, I've got children at home. Or maybe you just find another, another reason. Our policy is not to come. Um, and then just see, you know, you're relying on, on the client being honest there though, because the client's toilet is blocked and, and they're ill.
Stuart MaceYeah.
Al ElliottThen they're gonna probably go, no, no, we're fine. The other thing is maybe just, what, what can you manage? Can you wear masks when you go into a, into a house? I know it seems a bit weird, but, you know, do you wash your hands as much as you can? Do, don't shake hands with the client. Try to stay, you know, all the sensible stuff we used to do during the pandemic might be worth doing.
Leanne ElliottI fully appreciate how frustrating that is, and I would've been fuming if that was the case, and then I was, you know, ill for ill for that long. And ultimately, that's what we used to— I used to say the same as Audrey did to my team, like, don't come in. What are you doing? Because now it's gonna ripple through the rest of the team. I'm not gonna have a full team for the next 8 weeks waiting for everyone to get over it. Go home, rest up, come back when you're better or not contagious at the very least. Um, I think it's a bit of both here, isn't it? Which is always a typical psychologist's answer, I guess. But I think it's a case of You're absolutely right, Al. What can you do within your control to minimise your exposure risk to different viruses? Making sure you wash your hands, wearing masks, not shaking hands, or everything that you said, Al. Really good advice. Other ways you can boost your immune system. We just heard that touching grass can be good for building the immune system. What, in terms of your diet, could help you build your immune system? Any vitamins or supplements that might help? I'm not a doctor, so go and consult one. And then I think finally is that piece around, well, what boundaries can you set? I like what you said, Al, in terms of terms of that. It's just part of your contract, you know, just so you know, in, in terms of health and safety and, and protection of, of all of the team, um, we won't go to house calls where people are unwell, um, and if we turn up on the day, then we won't do the job and you will lose your deposit. Um, I think I'm hearing that much more often as well. There's lots of nail techs now or eyebrow techs that will take a deposit, and if you cancel, you've lost it.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBecause it's income, usually on a self-employed basis, that they're trying to protect. So, I think it's well worth it. I'd have a look, you know, maybe there's essentially like a little risk assessment you could put together for people, which might also just be good for you as well, to understand if there's any animals in the house, any kids, any spaces that might be hard to get to with the nature of work that you do, and then build into that kind of a disclosure, disclaimer, whatever you call it.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottadvisory thing. Um, but yeah, for the, for the health and safety of the whole team, if somebody in, in the house isn't well, we won't be making a house call. You get free, free, um, you know, rebook for another date if we turn up and somebody's ill. You lose your deposit. And I think once you get into the swing of that, because also from what I believe, plumbers in the UK are very hard to come by, especially a good one. Um, I think, I think you'll be all right. I think you can probably afford to set some Some firmer boundaries on this.
Al ElliottYeah. And as always, as we always like to say, playing devil's avocado, do you know that you actually got ill from this person's house? You walked into a house, they were all ill, you were ill. You know, what, what does it say? What scientists always say, coercion is not the same as correlation, or causation is not correlation.
Leanne ElliottCorrelation is not the same as causation.
Al ElliottYeah. Is that— did I use that right in that situation?
Leanne ElliottUm, no.
Al ElliottAnyway, the point, the point is it might not necessarily be them. Anyway, so I hope that, I hope that was useful. And I'd be interested on, um, on, uh, on Audrey's thoughts on that as well. And we'll maybe, uh, we'll maybe link, can we link to what was said on the—
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. I'll link to the actual LinkedIn post and also Audrey's show. I believe she's gonna share, um, some of the answers, um, on one of her upcoming shows. Um, but I think to summarize all that, as a self-employed person, you are the only person that's got your back.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSo if you wanna set your own boundaries, if you wanna create an environment that protects you your business, your income, and your health, you are well within your rights to do that.
Al ElliottBrilliant. Okay, so the second question I've got here is, how do you survive a toxic workplace when you can't afford to leave? So this person writes, I'm 29 and I've been working at the same corporate job for 5 years. The culture is toxic, constant pressure, no real support, and a general sense that no one actually cares about the people behind the work. I'm exhausted. The problem is I can't walk away right now because I'm fully supporting my younger sister while she finishes school, and financially I need to stay put for at least another couple of years. I've got long-term goals. I'd love to build something of my own one day, something that actually makes a difference. But in the meantime, I just need to get through this without burning out. Have you been through anything similar? Oh, interesting. No one's ever asked us that. How did you stay mentally strong and set boundaries?
Leanne ElliottUm, I have been through something similar. It's my first, my first job out of, out of my postgrad. So I will, yeah, I will, I will share with some of the things that I did. But I think what the first thing I'm hearing is a very, what seems like absolute thinking here. I can't leave my job because I have to support my sister and I need to stay another 2 years. What you're saying is you can't leave your job and not have another one lined up. You could absolutely be looking around for other jobs with the same salary, if not higher. If you've been there 5 years, this could be a really great time to think about moving on and how you can consolidate all that experience and, and show it off in your, in your CV to, to land an even higher paying role in an organisation that is better suited for you. So, I think that as an assumption is fundamentally wrong, and I think we need to maybe accept that. As scary as it is, you could potentially move on depending obviously what role you have, industry, et cetera, and how easy that would be. But you could move on. You're not stuck. You're not chained to it. The second thing I'd say, and I always say to people in this, in this situation, is take some time to take some self-respect, self-reflection, and understand exactly what it is about that environment you're finding toxic. Is it the relationships? Is it the values of the company? Is it the job itself? Is it the work you're doing? Is it your team? Is it how your current setup is in terms of remote or hybrid or in the office? Because unless you understand exactly why that environment is toxic to you, you could well move on to a different organisation that is equally as toxic because you've not taken that time to understand. So, for example, you might work in a job that the job's all right and it's given you good experience and the people are kind of cool. Um, but fundamentally your values just misalign with the organisation. It's just not ticking those purpose-led, by the sound of it, values that you have. You can find that somewhere else in the interim to refill your, your energy that, that you need. To go back to, to have I been through it, my first job, um, it was more that the work wasn't challenging enough. After about 18 months, it was all getting very samey. It was a global financial crisis. There wasn't lots of money in.
Stuart MaceYeah.
Leanne Elliottin HR and people and culture. Um, previous to that, I'd started volunteering for the Samaritans, as regular listeners will know. So, during that time, I just got more involved. I got on the committee. I started to help people with the fundraising. Um, did lots of stuff with Al. Um, there's weekends we used to just repaint the outside and scrub off the graffiti and stuff like that. Um, and that really helped me in terms of my sense of self and my values because I was spending more time with people whose values align with mine. Mm-hmm. I was doing work that felt that it was contributing to something bigger. And we also know that actually volunteering is one of the few things that have been proven time and time again to actually have a direct and positive impact on our mental health and wellbeing. So, look at volunteering and how you can get those other bits and pieces. If it is a fundamentally toxic environment, if you're being bullied, if you're being mistreated, if you're experiencing discrimination, That's a very different, different thing. From what the intonation of your question, I'm not sure that is the case. I think there's just something there that isn't quite clicking. I would take some time, look at things like we've talked about, um, the VITALS model before. We've talked about the Wheel of Life before. Just, you know, Google the Ikigai.
Stuart MaceIkigai, yeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, questions, um, from Jon Tarnoff's episode. Go back and revisit them. And take some time to understand why you don't like your job, because it might also be that if there's elements that you do enjoy, if you focus on those and appreciate those and be mindful of those, it can sometimes make everything a little bit easier.
Al ElliottIt's very trendy now to call everything toxic. Um, and I think that's, you know, thanks to TikTok and Instagram and God knows what else is coming down the line. Everyone's like, oh, this is toxic. I'm in a toxic relationship. I'm in a toxic work environment. That's, that's Yeah, that's, that's not necessarily true. You might just be in a job you don't like. You might have a manager you don't like. It's not necessarily toxic. So just be careful. You, like Leanne said, you are thinking in absolutes. It's, it might be a little bit more nuanced than that. And of course, the issue is that what you describe as toxic could actually be normal for the industry. For example, if you were, if you were investment banking, then I think a lot of people would look at that environment and go, that's toxic. But to people who are working in it, like, no, that's just normal. So by changing from one place to another in the same, in the same investment banking sector, you'll find that nothing really changes. But I hope that wasn't too negative. It was a little bit of straight talk from Leanne there, but with love, as it always is. And you know that you've got Leanne's email address in the show notes, so you can always drop her a line if you want to have a chat with her.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And as always, if you've got the means, consider engaging a coach to lead you through this period of reflection. Probably just 2 or 3 sessions would do it. And I think you'd probably get a lot of value from it.
Al ElliottOkay. Question number 3. I'm scared to manage people. Would a course help me get over that? So this listener writes, I've been offered a chance to step up and lead a small team, and I want to say yes, but if I'm honest, the idea of managing people freaks me out. I've never done it before and I don't want to fail. Okay. Red flag number 1. I've looked at a few business management courses, but I'm not sure if that's the kind of thing that's actually gonna build confidence or if I just need to jump in And learn by doing. Leanne, is there a course or resource that made a difference or will help me teach me what a classroom never could?
Leanne ElliottExcellent question. We always say train your managers. We don't often talk about what in.
Al ElliottYes, good point.
Leanne ElliottGood question. Um, I don't think it is a red flag that you said that you're afraid of failing. Um, and I think it's actually a green flag that you're scared because it shows you're taking it seriously. I think it shows that you You're, you're considering the impact you could have on people or potentially negative impact, and then that's gonna, you know, impact your career prospects and development. I think, I mean, from the research we've learned today, there is definite value in learning about transactional elements of, um, management. So things like how to run a performance management session, how to have difficult conversations is definitely Um, value in that. The tricky thing is, is that every organisation can have a slightly different nuanced process and procedure and expectations around that. My thought would be, and all the research kind of tells us this as well, is the, the most valuable skill you can have as a leader, as a manager, is the psychosocial skills that create a psychologically safe work environment.
Stuart MaceYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd that's things like self-awareness, emotional intelligence, communication skills, being able to listen. All of these things are going to serve you so well in a management role in any organisation, and also just in life in general. My advice would be to look at a coaching course. Look at a coaching course, because what coaching courses will do, a good one, is will train you in all of these things.
Stuart MaceYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt'll look at emotional intelligence and ways you can improve it. You can improve your emotional intelligence. It'll look at your levels of self-awareness, what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are, what your triggers are. So many different things. There's lots of introspection in coaching courses, as well as how to listen, how to have difficult conversations, how to ask good questions. I think something like that is going to really help you in this early start of your management career to really get to grips. with the fundamental skills that are going to make you an exceptional, exceptional, exceptional— I can't get the word out— exceptional. Been on holiday. Exceptional manager. And then when you're in the organisation, look for a mentor. Look for somebody in HR, another manager who you respect and, and you like the way they work, and talk to them about the more transactional things. Talk to them about how, you know, I've noticed a shift in, in behaviour from a member of my team, and I think it might be a performance issue, and how should I approach this? Or You know, someone's done this and it's not really acceptable from what I understand in the, in the, you know, the company handbook. What's my obligations here? But you're gonna have these, these incredible skills underpinning all this and very specific situations and, and policies and everything else. That would be my advice. Specifically, I would look at an organisation called Ride the Wave.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThey have been on the show way back when, probably 2 years ago. Um, have a look at them. I'll leave a link to their website in the show notes. They do a really great, uh, leader coach training course. Um, but yeah, that, that would be where I'd start.
Al ElliottYeah, 100%. And I think the 80/20 of this, um, as in what, what's the 20% that can make the 80% difference, um, is the listening, is the people. Like, so for example, if you look at great salespeople, Rarely are they trained in technical sales. Well, not technical, but in the actual sort of how you sell, what you say. What they are amazing at is building rapport, listening, and properly listening, and then trying to help someone come to a solution. If you go, if you've ever bought something from an amazing salesperson, you won't have felt like you've been sold to. I think it's the same with a great leader. If you, if you come across a great leader and they help you solve a problem, You're like, that person is incredible. Doesn't matter if they know specifically how to solve the problem, but if they can help you to do that. So the reason— and I want to go back to this red flag thing because I don't want to be rude, and I liked that Leanne called me out on that. But the red flag I thought was, I don't want to fail. I can see you seeing that from 2 angles. Leanne saw it from a very kind angle of going, oh, they really care about doing it right. I saw it from an angle of going, uh-oh, has this person got to be right? Yeah. Because if you are gonna manage anyone, just like if you can do any kind of sales, marketing, anything to, to do with people and psychology and behavior, you can't be right because most people won't do what you want them to do, um, over time. So that was my red flag, is that if you are thinking, I cannot fail at this because I've, I'm always right, that's a problem. But if you are thinking, I can't, I don't wanna fail because, um, you know, I, I, I wanna do a really good job, then fair enough.
Leanne ElliottGood point, well made.
Al ElliottThank you very much. Okay, so I think that's the end of our segment there, the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery. We wrap up your questions to Leanne. Got it right, got it right. Yes, yes. If you have a question yourself, then check out show notes. You can send it in, and, uh, we'll usually anonymous, but if you don't want to be anonymous, we could do that if you wanted. So that is all for us now. Join us next Tuesday for another edition of This Week in Work. Oh, and if you are a super fan, And you wanna be actually and actively involved in making these episodes, then we've just started a private WhatsApp group. We've got half a dozen people in there at the moment. They're the people we've invited who've just left reviews or we've spoken to 'em or whatever, and we ask them for the feedback on what's working and what's not. We ask them for feedback on ideas for things. So far we've got some really good feedback. One of them meant that we stopped doing something we thought people liked. It turned out they didn't.
Leanne ElliottIn the meantime, um, like, subscribe, click the bell, do what you need to do. Um, Come over to LinkedIn, have a chat, say hi, um, and we'll see you on Thursday.
Al ElliottBye-bye.
Stuart MaceBye.