Episode 202 · 3 June 2025 · 1:00:40
Divorce, disruption and the death of the watercooler. PLUS! Are you a duck shuffler? With Kristyna Hawkett - This Week in Work, 3 rd June 2025
Featuring Kristyna Hawkett
Divorce, disruption and the death of the watercooler. PLUS! Are you a duck shuffler? With Kristyna Hawkett - This Week in Work, 3 rd June 2025
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Intro and coming up this week
Story 1: Are you a duck shuffler?
news roundup#duck-shuffler#workplace-behavior#office-politics
Story 2: The economy isn't crashing, it's changing
news roundup#economy#job-market#industry-change
Story 3: The small-world illusion: why watercooler moments don't matter as much as you think
news roundup#return-to-office#watercooler-moments#research
Hot Take: Divorce is a workplace issue (with Kristyna Hawkett)
Workplace Surgery: Question 1 - Supporting a colleague through menopause
workplace surgery#menopause#workplace-support#employee-wellbeing
Workplace Surgery: Question 2 - Motivating a disengaged team
workplace surgery#employee-engagement#motivation#team-management
Workplace Surgery: Question 3 - Letting a star employee go
workplace surgery#termination#star-employee#management
Outro: Where to find Kristyna and what's coming next
Show notes
Duck Shufflers, Changing Economies & Divorce as a Workplace Issue — with Kristyna Hawkett
Guest: Kristyna Hawkett — founder of MinusOne.club, a consultancy helping employers support people through divorce and family change.
What do you do when a star employee crosses the line? And what does a "duck shuffler" actually bring to your team?
This week, Al and Leanne dive into three big workplace stories: the new archetype of the duck shuffler (the person who disrupts your perfectly aligned plans — but for good reason), why the US job market is changing rather than crashing, and new research that challenges the watercooler myth behind return-to-office mandates.
Then, Kristyna Hawkett joins for a hot take that might surprise you: divorce is a workplace issue. She explains why supporting employees through family breakdowns isn't just compassionate — it's smart business — and how to help without prying, reduce gossip, and build loyalty through life's messiest moments.
Plus, in the Workplace Surgery: how do you let a high-performing employee go when they've betrayed your trust?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. What's a duck shuffler — and why you might need one Leanne introduces a new workplace archetype: the duck shuffler. This is the person who disrupts your perfectly aligned "ducks in a row" — but not for chaos. They're often the ones who save you from bad decisions and groupthink. Are you building a culture where they can thrive?
2. The economy isn't crashing — it's changing Al breaks down the latest US job data. Despite media panic, sectors like healthcare, logistics, and finance are adding jobs fast — while others, like tech, are shrinking. So is it resilience or a false sense of security? Source →
3. The small-world illusion: why watercooler moments don't matter as much as you think Are we overhyping chance encounters at work? A new study shows people dramatically overestimate how often they bump into colleagues — and how much support they actually get. The lesson? If we want real connection, we need to build it intentionally. Summary → Study →
🎙️ Hot Take: Divorce Is a Workplace Issue
Kristyna Hawkett from MinusOne.club joins Al and Leanne to explain why supporting employees through family changes isn't just compassionate — it's smart business.
Key insights:
- Most people going through divorce don't want to be asked about it — so how do you create space without prying?
- Retaining a good employee through a difficult life transition is often cheaper and better than replacing them
- The signs a manager should look for when someone's struggling
- How Kristyna wishes her own manager had handled her divorce — and what she'd do differently
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Menopause support: How do you support a colleague going through menopause — especially as a male manager?
- Disengagement: How do you know if your team is actually disengaged, and what do you do about it?
- Betrayal: "She was a star — until she betrayed our trust." How do you let a high-performing employee go when they've crossed the line?
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
More From Kristyna Hawkett
- Website: minusone.club
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kristyna-hawkett-96b9a963
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottAre you a duck shuffler?
Al ElliottA what?
Leanne ElliottDuck with a D.
Al ElliottYep, carry on before I start.
Leanne ElliottAre you a duck shuffler, or do you have one in your team? You might not know what it means yet, but today we're looking at why it could make the difference between a team that just plods along and one that really performs.
Al ElliottAnd what does the future of work really look like? Well, we kind of know. I've been going through the latest US job statistics, Um, and data, and it doesn't really match the doom and gloom headlines. So are we seeing quiet resilience, or is this really warning signs that we need to be adhering to?
Leanne ElliottAnd in the Workplace Surgery, how do you let a star employee go when they've crossed the line? One listener says they've done everything to support them, but after months of personal drama, medical leave, and even moonlighting for a competitor, the team has had enough. So what is the right move? Fire or force a resignation?
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work.
Leanne ElliottThe award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures. We'll be diving into all of that in today's episode after a very quick word from our sponsors.
Al ElliottOh, and we'll also tell you why we sound a bit more echoey and we've got a different background.
Leanne ElliottHubSpot's Inbound Event 2025 is bringing together the brightest minds in business, AI, and entrepreneurship. We're talking Amy Poehler, the genius behind ChatGPT, Dario Moridei, and Sean Evans from Hot Ones, because apparently even hot sauce interviews can teach us about business strategy.
Al ElliottYeah, September 3rd until September 5th in San Francisco. And no, this isn't just another one of those conferences where you pretend to take notes. While secretly checking your phone. This is 3 full days of actionable insights that you can actually use to grow your business.
Leanne ElliottWhat I love about this is the focus on practical application. We enjoy applied science here. You're not just sitting through fluffy keynotes, you're getting tactical breakout sessions, networking with people who are actually building things, and learning from entrepreneurs who figured out how to thrive in this AI-powered world.
Al ElliottPlus, come on, you're in San Francisco, the global headquarters of let's disrupt everything and see what happens. It's the perfect place to meet your next co-founder, investor, or just someone who gets why you're obsessed with optimising your customer acquisition funnel.
Leanne ElliottHead to inbound.com/register to see the range of tickets, including VIP options. Fancy, fancy, fancy, fancy. Trust us, your future self will thank you for actually investing in learning something useful. Guess what, Al?
Al ElliottWhat?
Leanne ElliottWe're gonna be there.
Al ElliottNo, we're not. I am.
Leanne ElliottI'm manifesting.
Al ElliottOh, okay.
Kristyna HawkettYeah, we're—
Al Elliottyeah, you can come and meet us there. There you go. That's the reason to, to go and book your ticket today. VIP experience will no doubt include us. I'd imagine they'd invite us to the VIP area. So go and visit inbound.com/register to get your ticket today. Welcome back. If you listened to what should have been Thursday's episode and was actually Monday's episode, Or even perhaps Tuesdays. I can't remember exactly when he went out.
Leanne ElliottIt'll be dated Thursday though.
Al ElliottShh. Then you'll find, you'll have heard why we are now in a rather echoey room with what is actually, if you're on YouTube, let me just check this out.
Leanne ElliottFancy, huh?
Al ElliottDid that show the background?
Leanne ElliottYeah, did it just focus? Yeah.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah. That is Lake Kotor in Montenegro. We are here, not really through choice.
Leanne ElliottHard. It was so hard done by. But no, we'll explain it all in the last episode. Go and have a look. Headline is Shit Happens. It's not about, it's not about the problem, it's about how you respond to it. So if you want to hear a story of, of real-life resilience now, how Al and I had literally 48 hours to completely turn our world upside down and still make it work, um, then, then go and check it out.
Al ElliottYeah, so it's, uh, it's definitely, it's a, it's a good episode. It's a very good episode with quite a story. Anyway, it's now Leanne's favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup, Lee.
Leanne ElliottIt is. Cue the jingle, Al.
Al ElliottOkay, I'll see if I remember to bring the jingle up. jingle with me. I might have to make one up.
Leanne ElliottMaybe there's a different one.
Al ElliottMaybe there's a different one. Leigh, stop, stop. Tell us your— tell us what you've seen this week.
Leanne ElliottDuck shuffler.
Al ElliottI just, I was so close. See, now regular listeners will know that that is just essentially a ball, open net. Just, I just need to get my head on it and, and I've knocked it in. But we will, yeah, I'll not be rude. What is a duck shuffler, Leigh?
Leanne ElliottIt's my, it's my new word. It's my word of the week. So, you know how people, like the saying, get your ducks in a row?
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottWhich means you're like, you're ready to, to kind of like go on like a task or a situation. Well, a duck shuffler is someone who will come in and mess them all up.
Al ElliottOh, just me.
Leanne ElliottSo, for example, you've got, you've got a team, they've spent ages perfecting a certain project plan or process, every detail's in place, everything looks great, and then someone comes in and goes, hang on, have you thought about this? And then points out the one thing That you haven't noticed. That, my friend, is a duck shuffler.
Al ElliottSo essentially, the Ministry for Foreign Affairs were the duck shufflers of our ducks, because our ducks were in a row. We were like, great, we'll get residency any day soon. And they've come in and said, ah.
Leanne ElliottYeah, very similar. I mean, we were in fact missing a duck, but—
Al ElliottYes, true. They pointed out. So they were more of a, more of a duck observer than a duck shuffler.
Leanne ElliottYeah, we probably didn't even have ducks, we had geese. Um, yeah, so I think, I think the thing is, this is being kind of talked about in a way that is quite negative, like that person annoying person always comes in like, meh, a duck shuffler. I, I think in general people don't come to work to just be disruptive for disruption's sake. I think people come to work because they're trying to do the very best that they can, or it's just a part of, part of who they are operating in, in the way that they do. I don't believe the intention is always necessarily bad. So here's my take on being a duff— duff? No, it's like fuzzy duck. Did you ever play that drinking game as a student?
Al ElliottI played it once with you, Leanne, and it was Horrific. I was, I was what, in my late 30s? You were all in your very early 20s.
Leanne ElliottNo, you weren't. There's not 20 years between us.
Al ElliottNo, I was in— oh no, no, no, I was in my, I was in my early 30s. You were in your late, in your early 20s, and we tried to play the, uh, anyway, if you know the game, it's basically you just get drunk very quickly if you are not verbally dexterous, which I am not.
Leanne ElliottYes. So a duck shuffler.
Al ElliottThere's gonna be so many outtakes in here.
Leanne ElliottI know. Um, so yes, so here's my take on a duck shuffler or duck shuffling.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIf you will. I don't believe it's already a bad thing. I believe that a duck shuffler is somebody who is conscientious. They're a perfectionist. They want to make sure that all the i's are dotted and all the, the t's are crossed. They can't help, um, but want to have all those little details. They're Type A, you know, to put it in an old-school kind of pop culture psychology way. They're a Type A. Um, or perhaps they're a little bit neurotic. They're very risk-averse. Someone like myself, for example. So it's a wonder how So many, so many of my ducks weren't in a row. Um, but yeah, they, they can't help but seeing what, what goes wrong, so therefore they're, they're going to point out a problem if they see it. Duck shuffling, I think that's the individual kind of why they might be doing it. I think from an organizational perspective, duck shuffling could actually be really good because it stops against things, um, that would like things like groupthink. I couldn't get the word out then. Groupthink, that's when we're so used to working with a team, the same people all the time, Our thoughts start to kind of assimilate in a way that just isn't very helpful anymore, isn't very effective, certainly isn't innovative. So actually having somebody to come in and shake it up is actually pretty good for organisational life and organisational performance. I also think that having a duck shuffler could be a reflection of your culture. So for example—
Kristyna HawkettStop laughing.
Leanne ElliottFor example, a duck shuffler is only going to speak up and mess up the ducks if they've got the psychological safety to point out a glaringly obvious problem that nobody else has spotted. How you respond to that as a leader might be reflective of how genuine you're trying to set up psychological safety to be. As a leader, you want people— you want duck shufflers to point out the problems and make things better. If you're finding that frustrating, then perhaps your psychological safety is maybe a bit more lip service than, than you're willing to admit. So I think that actually, as long as the intention from this person is pure and productive, I think that actually having at least one duck shuffler in your team could be your greatest asset. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottYeah, totally. I mean, I do agree. I think as I'm not, I'm definitely not Type A, um, but I definitely am someone who likes to go, oh yeah, it'll be fine, let's do it. And then someone comes along and goes, well, have you thought about this? And that bit isn't, you haven't even thought about it. It's like, yeah, come on, dude. I'll work that out as I go along. So it can be very frustrating, I think. But you are right. If you are the duck shuffler of this organization, that is probably a good thing because you will say to me, Al, there's a bit you've not thought about here, I don't think. Just go and have a little think about it. Where it becomes, I think, really annoying is someone comes in a little bit like, oh, well, you haven't thought about that bit, have you? And then you go, come on, man, I'm trying to do something innovative here, trying to do something cool. And you are going, that's never gonna work.
Kristyna HawkettYeah.
Al ElliottSo that's maybe A goose shuffler. Maybe that's your, your, your goose man or person or woman.
Leanne ElliottHonker.
Al ElliottHonker. So we've got duck shufflers, we've got honkers. Bill, Bill from accounts, he's the biggest honker of them all. He, yeah, he can honk right off, can't he?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think that's a big, a big add-on as well, isn't it? That if you are a duck shuffler, you probably want to be coming with some solutions or some helpful questions to work around and find that. solution. You don't just want to be pointing at yourself going, haha, you didn't think of that, because that is just annoying and unproductive.
Al ElliottYeah, that's just Nelson from The Simpsons.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah. Also, now I've got that song stuck in my head every day. I'm shuffling. Anyway, what have you seen this week, Al?
Al ElliottIt was so cool. Okay, so this week I saw an infographic on X, and it is showing the job sectors that most new roles are being developed for in the US. Now, just some context, This is, I think, January to March 2025, only in the US, but still kind of an indicative. I think you can probably say that the US job market is very indicative of most of the, most of the rest of the world.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Kristyna HawkettYeah.
Al ElliottYeah. Fair. So a lot of the, there's a lot of doom and gloom going around that the economy's in trouble. People are losing jobs. AI is coming for my job is the main thing you see on Twitter, but it just goes to show some industries are actually Thriving. So, Leigh, I wanna play a game with you. I'm gonna give you, there are, I think there are 12 or 13 industries on this scale. One of them is negative. The rest of them are positive, ranging from very slightly like 2, like 2% positive to like 80% positive. If I tell you one of the middle categories, I want you to, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna give you—
Leanne ElliottLike higher or lower?
Al ElliottThis is exactly what I'm trying to say. I didn't explain that very, very well. So I'm gonna give you a, a middle one and I'll say, right, is this higher or lower?
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottYes. So higher and lower. If you, if you're, if you're British, you might have seen the, the show back in the '80s and '90s, Bruce Forsyth, Higher or Lowers, game of cards. Yeah, I think you have something similar in the US as well. Anyway, so we're gonna start off with the first one, which is kind of mid-table. So we're gonna say retail trade added 16,000 new jobs in that period of time. Did the US government add more or less than 16,000?
Leanne ElliottLess.
Al ElliottNo, actually more, 20,000 new jobs.
Leanne ElliottOkay. So, so even though Elon Musk was, was turfing everybody out with Doge, there were other jobs somewhere else in government that were necessary, so they added another 20,000 of them.
Al ElliottYeah, I think that's it. 'Cause I mean, let's, let's not forget the US would be Department of Motor Vehicles. It could be like local government.
Leanne ElliottI don't know. Yeah. Space Department, I imagine, did quite well.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right. So we've got UK, so we've got US government, we've got 20,000.
Leanne ElliottUh-huh.
Al ElliottWould you say, now this is a difficult one, would you say That construction is higher or lower?
Leanne ElliottOoh, higher. They started building the wall again. Yeah, that's true.
Al ElliottThat's why they've got 30,000 new jobs created in construction. Now, of those 30,000 new jobs, would you say that they could— they call it information, which is sectors that produce, process, and distribute data such as publishing, broadcasting, telecom. We're in that. So would you say that was higher or lower? Than what did we just say? Construction, 30,000 new jobs.
Leanne ElliottLower.
Al ElliottHow much lower?
Leanne ElliottSignificantly lower.
Al ElliottIt is the lowest of them all.
Leanne ElliottReally?
Al ElliottThat sector lost 2,000 jobs in just that sector. It's just the smallest. The next biggest one is utilities and mining and logging, which produced 5,000 jobs overall. So let's talk about the number one here. It's healthcare and social assistance. Over just that period of time, 3 months, 100 and 93,000 jobs were created, which is, I've just got a note down here. I think it was almost 50% of all jobs created were created in the healthcare and social assistance.
Leanne ElliottDo we know any, any details on that? What springs to mind is aged care. Boomers getting older, biggest generation after the millennials.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI'm guessing it is. It says, 'cause it's called healthcare and social assistance. It does also include vets. But I don't think there's been that many more dogs born in, in, in January time. But, um, yeah, so that's kind of interesting. The next one after that was transportation and warehousing, which you think, well, surely that's gonna be, that's where AI is gonna be taken over. It's for robotics. You ever seen an Amazon, Amazon distribution center? It's all robots. Have you seen them? A video of it, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottIt's so cool. They've got robots on like, and they just drive. And, and so the packer stays where they are and these robots come to the packer with all their bits and they just start putting them in boxes and stuff. And very cool. But no, that's on the rise, but that's mainly down to the fact that we're ordering more e-commerce. We're ordering more and more stuff every single month. We're ordering more and more stuff. And the, um, the 3rd and 4th, which I'm gonna combine, produced 70,000 jobs, was professional and business services and financial activity.
Kristyna HawkettOkay.
Al ElliottNow that might, you might go, oh, well, consultants aren't being replaced by AI. Or you might go, actually, that was a burst over a period of 3 months. where professional services, most of those new jobs created were in agencies who were AI-ficating everything. And so therefore, actually, we're going to see a massive drop in that, drop down later on in the year. But I thought that was quite interesting.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah.
Al ElliottAlso, it just reminds us that if you're in those sort of sectors where there are more jobs and you're a job seeker, good news. If you're in one of those sectors where there are more jobs being created and you're an employer, bad news, because there's more competition. You know, there's jobs being created You're gonna have to basically— I think the overall thing is what Leanne always says is let's try and keep people rather than really annoy them, let them go, and then we have to replace them. So it's gonna be cheaper to keep someone than it is to hire a new person.
Kristyna HawkettLeanne, thoughts?
Leanne ElliottYeah, interesting stuff, isn't it? And it's, it's— I know it's a little game, but it's interesting actually how, how you can follow it through given recent events, everything we've talked about on the show in terms of geopolitics, in terms of Generations. Um, yeah, it's interesting. I think I'm, I'm, I'm surprised by government, but I guess it's such a machine, isn't it? US government is massive. Um, and I guess I'm slightly surprised you said by professional services, but I don't know, at the same day, people want to work with people, so that might be one that isn't perhaps as, as not as early as perhaps people predicted. Um, yeah, anything if, yeah, around healthcare, aged care, Social services, I think, is going to boom because that's the, the sad state of the world we're in post-COVID. Strong tensions, aging generations. It's funny, isn't it, how with technology growing, humans seem to be breaking. Um, but yeah, it's, it's an interesting thing. And I think as always with, um, you know, with jobs, they evolve, they change. I think we shared something back from the 1970s on the BBC Uh, but probably maybe last summer about all these crazy predictions about how we do all of our shopping online and shops won't exist anymore. And yes, technically shops could no longer exist anymore, but we still like the experience of going into a physical shop from time to time. So I think that'll be, that'll be true as well with AI. There's going to be some things that just happen to, happen to stick around too, uh, because we like it.
Al ElliottYeah, things just change. They always evolve. Like the internet changed the way we bank, the internet changed the way we do anything, the way shop, etc., etc. And it's— look at that, e-commerce is like, you know, transport is booming at the moment. Anyway, Lee, what else have you seen this week, my love?
Leanne ElliottWell, I saw a new bit of research. So you know how a lot of these return to office mandates are based on the fact that we need those watercooler moments, and that's what we're missing.
Al ElliottJust define what watercooler moment is for us.
Leanne ElliottSo those chance encounters when you're making a cup of tea with— then a colleague walks into the kitchen you haven't seen in ages, and you're like, Oh, Sandra, how are you? That reminds me— and you have a conversation that leads to an idea that leads to a breakthrough. Or it's just about building relationships or making friends. Those spontaneous chats that fuel all the creativity and, and ideas and, and relationships, um, that a lot of business owners, particularly in the large tech world, feel like we're missing by not having these spontaneous watercooler moments. You know those moments?
Al ElliottI do.
Leanne ElliottAnd how that's one of the main arguments behind RTO, return to office mandates.
Al ElliottYes, 100%. I'm on board. I understand it. I've got it. Yes, crack on.
Leanne ElliottWell, a psychologist has called BS.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottAnd it turns out science is on their side.
Al ElliottWell, you wouldn't have had the article if science wasn't on their side, would you?
Leanne ElliottI absolutely would have.
Al ElliottYes, you would.
Leanne ElliottQuestioning my scientific integrity? Of course I would.
Al ElliottSo what did they say?
Leanne ElliottIt just brings me more joy that it is on their side.
Al ElliottSo what was the BS?
Leanne ElliottI mean, it's a little, just a watercooler moment that That without that in-person spontaneity, we don't have the ideation and creativity that we had previously when we were all in the office. That doesn't seem to be true. It is a bit of an exaggeration. I'm not sure that was the actual intention of the study, to disprove the water cooler argument behind RTO and mandates, but it does give us something to talk about in kind of this context. So to give you some more details, these spontaneous little interactions, yes, we know they can bring real benefits. Of course they can, but this new study suggests that it might not be happening as often as we think. So this comes from a brand new study from Nadav Klein published this year, um, this year, yeah, in Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes. It's called The Small World Illusion. It's quite a nice title, um, and it basically says that we're overestimating how often we're actually running into our colleagues and what that what those moments really do for us. This is how they figured it out. So they had people guess how often they bump into acquaintances and colleagues, what they call weak ties, in our network. Then they had, um, the same people track it over real time and log every time they actually saw these people. And then the researchers also wanted to see how much people thought they could rely on these acquaintances for help and support when they needed it. Here's what they found. People thought they'd see these acquaintances about half the days they're in the office. In reality, they saw them about a quarter of the days.
Kristyna HawkettOh, wow.
Leanne ElliottAnd then here's a really interesting and sad-making bit. When asked how often they thought they could count on these people for help, it would be a quick favour, that type of thing, a bit of backup, people guessed it would be about 60% of the time that these people would would help them. What research— when researchers actually looked at the data, uh, these acquaintances only stepped up to help around 13% of the time.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so not only are we seeing each other less than we think, but these connections we believe will offer support are far less likely to help when it counts. The researchers say that this is down to our small world illusion. Our brains just remember those random chats or supportive moments more vividly than all the days in between when we're working alone.
Al ElliottJust thinking about this, there's a story, and I don't know, I can't remember the exact announcement, but when, um, when Steve Jobs took over Pixar, I think he moved Pixar and Apple into the same building, and then he moved the mailboxes so they were in the atrium for both businesses. The idea being that when they bump into people, spark off ideas, perhaps you get more integration. That would be your watercooler moment, wouldn't it? But what you're saying there is that actually it's probably half as effective as they expected it to be.
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly. It comes down to the fact that we remember memorable moments and we don't really remember ones that aren't, because why would we? It's what's called— there's different biases, availability bias, recency bias, where, yeah, as you said, you, you know, you decide you want to buy a red car, you start seeing red cars everywhere. Um, so yeah, it's just not quite as strong a connection as we thought because it feels like it's such a strong connection in the moment. Um, but the reality is it's just not, not quite as much, uh, doesn't have quite as much impact, um, on us and our working lives as maybe we're, we're led to believe. So in terms of that and why I wanted to link it to the RTO mandates, it feels intuitive that we're seeing people a lot more frequently. Yeah. When we're in a similar physical proximity to them. Um, and that's why your Jamie Dimons of the world and your Andy Jassis are kind of using this as an argument for, um, return to office. What the study actually suggests, if we're relying on these watercooler moments alone to build trust and share ideas, then we're probably giving them a lot more credit than they deserve. So the key takeaway really is that if you're a business owner, business leader, Real connection and collaboration doesn't happen just because we're in the same building. What does it need, Al?
Al ElliottUh, it needs purpose and— I mean, you pretty much caught me off guard there.
Leanne ElliottSorry, intention is what I wanted to say.
Al ElliottI was thinking about cheese. I'm sorry, I was listening to you. I was just also thinking about my lunch.
Leanne ElliottAll right, we need to build them intentionally, whether it's in the office, remote, or somewhere in between. So if you're more interested in that study than Al clearly was, I will leave a link in the show notes.
Al ElliottI was interested.
Kristyna HawkettI was.
Al ElliottIt's just, you know, we talk about a lot of this stuff already. And so, you know, I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know some of this. But anyway, you were— you're a duck squatter or whatever it is that it's called. Right. So after this very short break, we'll be back with our hot take, which today is a good one. We've never had anyone say anything like this before. And of course, we've got our world-famous Week at Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Don't go anywhere. See you in a few seconds. Billion Dollar Moves, hosted by Sarah Chen Spellings, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Leanne ElliottJoin venture capitalist and strategist Sarah Chen Spellings as she asks the hard questions and learns through the triumphs, failures, and hard lessons of the crème de la crème so you too can make billion-dollar moves in venture, in business, and in life.
Al ElliottMaybe start with episode 124, where you're going to hear how industry giants from Canva to YouTube Define leadership.
Leanne ElliottListen to Billion Dollar Moves wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back. It is time for our hot take, those perspectives that push us to think differently about the workplace. And today we are talking about something that affects far more people than we realize, and given how today's episode's going, may be affecting Al sometime soon as well—
Kristyna Hawkettdivorce.
Al ElliottGod, is it really that bad?
Kristyna HawkettYeah.
Al ElliottWell, to be fair, we don't normally think of divorce as a workplace issue, but of course it's happening in every team, in every office around the world, because statistically, what is, what do we say? 1 in 4 marriages end in divorce.
Leanne ElliottI think it's higher than that. Is it? I think it's like 1 in, 1 in 2, 1 in 3.
Al ElliottSo statistically it's happening or going to happen, or has happened to someone in your office. And of course, ignoring it isn't going to make it go away.
Leanne ElliottYes, so Kristyna Hawkett knows this firsthand. She's the founder of MinusOne.club, a consultancy that helps employers support people going through family changes like separation and divorce. Kristyna believes if businesses handle it well, these moments of personal crisis can actually reveal some of the strongest, most resilient people in the workplace. Today, she's here to explain why supporting employees through divorce isn't just a nice thing to do, It's a smart choice for any organization that wants to build loyalty, trust, and a culture that truly works for everybody. Let's go meet Kristyna and find out her hot take.
Kristyna HawkettI am Kristyna. I'm the founder of Minus One Club, and, um, I'm here, um, to break the social stigma about divorces, um, and make employers realize that people going through divorce within their businesses are actually possibly one of most resilient people they will ever find. 1 in 4 people go through separation or divorce. I like to call it family changes. Ultimately, really is the same thing. What that means is that somebody in your business right now, one of your colleagues, one of the staff is going through a divorce. Do you know who that person is? And do you know how to support that person?
Al ElliottI seem to remember saying, you saying before that If you were given a choice as an employer, you would rather have someone who's divorced than not. Am I being too simplistic about that?
Kristyna HawkettA little bit, but I think that's a good thing. The social stigma about somebody going through divorce or just being divorced is that the person is all over the place. The reality is, yes, their world would have exploded. Yes, if they are going through divorce right now, they are in a bad place. But all of these people have got to find the strength to get to the other side. There is no other choice. So, anybody that goes through family change will come out stronger, will come out more resilient, and if you as an employer support them correctly, will come out as a very loyal Part of your, part of your team.
Al ElliottLet's start off with just the big question here. Is it any of the manager's business what's going on in someone who's on their team's life? Should we be asking, are you going through a divorce? It doesn't feel right to me.
Kristyna HawkettIt depends on the person. I would say majority of the people do not want these questions. So it's a case of how do you, as a business owner or HR department, prep for when such a thing is happening in one of your team's lives. You shouldn't ask, you should be prepared, and you should have a quiet and respectful and empathetic email sent out to your teams, pointing you in the right direction where you can get support. And trust me, when somebody suddenly finds themselves in the middle of a divorce or the beginning of it, They will go and dig in the deleted emails because it's such an uncomfortable subject. It will stick in the back of your mind and you will dig and look for that email and you really will hope that the link you were given will work. And when that does, it can make all the difference.
Al ElliottI think there's some people out there who are managers who might push back on this, Kristyna, and say, look, I've got enough going on at work. I'm overworked, underpaid. I've got to manage all my team of 20 people. Is this just another thing that I need to take on?
Kristyna HawkettYou can either pretend these things aren't happening, um, or you can retain, um, a good member of your staff. And at the end of whoever this team member is, at the end of their journey or the family change, when they come through the other side, you can either have somebody that will leave your business and then you can start all over again. Look for new employees, train them, invest more money in that, or you will have somebody that will really appreciate the support you've given them. And you will have somebody that will be not only loyal, but really resilient. Somebody that will look at new challenges in life that include your business, dear manager, and will look for solutions out of the obvious. They will think outside of the box because they had to learn how to be resilient. go with changes in their life and not get very stressed about it because, you know, in the end, really any corporate issues compared to what they've just been through really won't stress them out that much. Ultimately, it's all about the choices you make as the manager. You do have the option to have somebody that will be stressed out going through family changes. Like, you can't fix it, but you can support it in a way that's beneficial not only to your member of staff, but to you as a business as well. You can either have somebody that will call in sick, will be late for work, or you will understand that this member of staff will need a little time off in terms of there will be legal proceedings this person will have to go to very likely. Suddenly there is a single parent and there are days when And they can't rely on the ex-spouse to look after the children at home. But if you've got procedures in place to allow this person to go through whatever they have to go through as strongly and as supported as possible, then I think it's win-win for both. Because this person will either not be at work because they will call in sick, Or this person will not be at work because they are allowed a little time out just to go and attend the court hearing, for example. But then they will make up for it because they will appreciate you giving them the afternoon off. They don't have to take annual leave. They will come home and very likely finish the work.
Al ElliottSo it's the choice you have to make as a business owner or Are there any signs that a manager should be looking out for that might suggest that someone is going through a divorce?
Kristyna HawkettThat's a tough question, um, because anybody going through any major changes in, in their life, um, you will have the, um, you know, the sick days. You will have the person that just seems a little bit all over the place. And, um, you, you mentioned that earlier, it is really tough for, for anybody at work or any manager or any business owner to come in and say, you don't seem right. Are you sick or are you going through divorce or are you— so you can't— that's a hard question. I think it would be looking out for signs of somebody just not being okay. But again, any forward-thinking HR department or any forward-thinking business will have that email in place that would have been sent to this employee in advance. So that they do have the support and are less likely to call in sick and are less likely to be stressed and withdrawn from work.
Al ElliottSo you went through a divorce when your girl was 9, I think, have I got that right?
Kristyna HawkettThat's correct.
Al ElliottIf we think back to that time, how should the conversation have gone with your manager at the time?
Kristyna HawkettIf I didn't have to go and see the manager to tell them this is what I'm going through, Because anybody going through family changes doesn't really want to go directly to the HR or to their manager. Very likely for the fear of being looked down upon, feeling like a failure, missing out on a promotion, being the office gossip. So I would have loved to be searching in my deleted emails, looking for that link that will point me to a place like Minus One Club. Where there are people that really get where I'm at, that really would help me focus on or break my journey into manageable steps and just work with me to then allow me to use work as really focused time because I could almost offload anything else with the support that I needed. So rather than having to go to a manager and ask for help, once again, any forward-thinking business will have this in plan already. So the conversation doesn't have to happen when your member of staff is at their most fragile state, really. Nobody prepares for divorce. There is nothing Um, for people or any pot of days they can use up going through family changes because it isn't there. But if you give a specific amount of days for people going through divorce that they can use up without taking annual leave, they will have no need to abuse it. They will know they have 5 days for the next year to use for everything they need to do, like their court hearing, like Meeting up with mediator or anything they might need to do, and they will work with it because they will appreciate that. And so, you know, the employee isn't taking the mickey, um, and the employee really will work around it because they will think, wow, thank God I've got this support.
Leanne ElliottThat was Kristyna Hawkett bringing a really interesting perspective, um, to divorce and that impact of that on the workplace. Al, what did you take from that conversation?
Al ElliottIt honestly is one of the hottest takes we've had. It's a hot— the hottest of the hot takes. I think the first thing was that it was important that we need to be sort of proactively supporting, not reactively supporting. So, you know, the thing she was really clear about is you don't go and ask, like, are you going through a divorce? What you do is you provide lots of resources, a lot— you give them, people, lots of support available when they ask for it. And she kept going back to this idea of deleted emails. And I think the idea is that if you send an email out and someone does go through divorce, they go, oh, I do remember seeing an email a year or so ago about this. They're going to go back through their inbox, find it, and see what resources are available to them. So it's kind of, even though the temptations of a manager, caring manager, will be to sit down with them and go, what's going wrong? Are you going through a separation? I mean, not a good manager wouldn't do that, but what's going on? Just allowing them to sort of, the person to go and get that advice as and when they need it. And Let's be honest, most people won't talk about divorce in the workplace. They won't go to HR.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's a tough subject. I think any tough subject that is behind these life transitions, these life changes, require empathy, and that empathy is gonna turn into retention. We talked about this a lot when we talked about grief in the workplace and how to manage that. It's a very similar process. It's a loss. It's a loss of a relationship. It's a major life transition. The more we can support people through that, Um, and the more supported that person feels, and the more loyalty they're going to show to the organization, the more resilience they're going to have to bounce back and, and be where we need them to be work-wise. Um, and potentially as well, some, some really fresh problem-solving skills. As you would have heard on Thursday, um, these can be built up over time, and sometimes when something happens very shocking and very suddenly, it's about having, having that experience to to lean on and go, right, this is, this is what we do. We can do this. We've got through this before. We'll get through it again. So yeah, empathy is fundamental.
Al ElliottYeah. And then the 3rd thing is really to create this culture of— Leanne talks about psychological safety. Um, I've got written down here quiet safety. It's probably not a term. I just might have made that up. But the whole idea is that you don't have gossip because, you know, in an unkind workplace, then you might have some of this watercooler moment where you go, Have you heard that Leanne and Al split up? God, you know, I could see it coming a mile off. Do you remember that time when Leanne did? You know, it's just not cool. The second thing is just allowing people to have this sort of special leave. So like, I think Kristyna talked about moving day. A lot of people now are saying you can have a moving day. So if you're moving house, you can have a full day off paid, and it's not part of your annual leave or anything. It's just like, yeah, if you want to move, there you go. Go and take a day off. Same thing if you need some, you know, with a divorce. It's not a divorce day, but if it's like—
Kristyna HawkettYeah.
Al ElliottYou know, if you're going through a divorce, then they know that quietly you can say to a manager, going, look, I need to go to court today to do X, or I need to go and see my mediation or my solicitor or lawyer or whatever. So, I think all of that is really, really important. And I think it's just, all that's really gonna help people to manage their, their own crisis personally without feeling like, like their manager's involved in it, but also feeling like the manager is definitely supporting them and the culture's there to support them.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And when it comes to that gossip, as we learned from Rebecca a few weeks ago in her hot take, gossip is what makes the workplace turn around. So, there is gonna be that gossip about about what is happening. I think if you are, whoever you are, whether you're a leader, you're a colleague, you're, you're the cleaner in the building when this conversation is being had, I think it's bringing empathy to those moments. So, if somebody says, oh my gosh, did you hear about Al? Leanne's just left him. Go, oh my gosh, that must be such a difficult period for Al at the moment. Um, we should check in on him. Has anyone spoke to him? And just twist it, you know, turn it into a more positive conversation when actually that empathy and that That support. It's not about shutting down the gossip so people won't talk about it. It's about redirecting that energy to actually be empathic and supportive, um, rather than, than just, just, yeah, mean.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. So if you want to find a bit more about Kristyna, then go to minusone— that's, um, O-N-E rather than the letter, the number 1— minusone.club. Um, and also go and check her out on LinkedIn. She posts a lot of really good stuff. If you, if you spell her name right, which I haven't already, she's from the Czech Republic originally. Um, so it's Kristyna, but, uh, with a Y. So it's K-R-I-S-T-Y-N-A. If you type that in, Kristyna Hawkett, she's the only one who comes up with a photo. In fact, she's the only one on LinkedIn with that name. So it's dead easy to find her.
Leanne ElliottSo that is our hot take for this week. But now it's time for Al's favourite time of the week. What time is it?
Al ElliottIt's time for the world famous Workly Wee with Sergei. One of them. We've had a week. Yeah, come on. It's time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne, and we've got the 3 questions for her today, as we always do. I don't know why I made emphasis on that. Yeah, like we normally have different ones. So question number 1, Leanne, how do you handle a colleague's personal struggles when they're turning into work drama? I have a coworker who's going through menopause and a lot of personal stress. I've been trying to give her some grace, But recently she's become really passive-aggressive and even a bit hostile towards me and a colleague. I tried to talk to her and I felt like we had a good chat. She explained some of the things that were bothering her. Um, I explained, you know, what the, that some of the, some of the behaviour wasn't really acceptable, but she's back to being cold and distant again. So I'm stuck. How would you handle someone when someone's personal struggles start bleeding into work and causing tension for everyone else on the team? Leigh, any thoughts?
Leanne ElliottOh, it sounds like you've approached this in a really positive way so far. So well done to you for recognising the challenges that this would bring up for that individual, how that's going to impact their ability to function and turn up at work, how it's going to impact their relationships, and to actually sit down and have that conversation once it started to feel a bit tense. You've done everything right up to this moment. Um, so good for you. I'm sure for you to reference menopause, you'll already know or have done some light research into what it, what it means. And there's so many symptoms that I don't think the general public population would know about, regardless of gender. Um, if you're not approaching that, that age of perimenopause or menopause, I only educated myself for the last couple of years. Um, it is going to be things like brain fog, it is irritability, it is mood swings. Um, and then when we feel this sense of, of threat state, this stress, we push away from people, we disconnect from our relationships, we become resentful, we become cynical. That sounds like maybe the passive-aggressive behavior that, that you're seeing, because essentially this person is, is experiencing symptoms of burnout as well. Maintaining all of this, and they've had family problems, and they're still trying to turn up to work, is a lot. And it's not your responsibility as a colleague to support them through that. You're their colleague, you're not their therapist, and you've done really well to support them through, um, to this point. In this scenario, I think you've done what you can. I think you set your boundaries. You continue to do what you're doing. You continue to empathize. You continue to have conversations when you feel that things have gone a step too far. At this point, I would be inclined to talk to somebody in a more senior position. either your manager or someone in HR, um, not from a perspective of this person's being awful, this person's really struggling, just in a kind of a very general conversation of there's a colleague that I'm having some challenges with. There's absolutely understandable circumstances why that is. I'm trying to support them and set my own boundaries. Um, I just want to share it with you in terms of what's happened so far. Should this escalate? Because what can happen in these situations when someone's under immense stress and pressure, and this is going to help, you know, impact them significantly psychologically as well, that can turn into delusional thinking. It can turn into, yeah, a very toxic way of thinking that can start to point fingers at the people who have maybe tried to interfere or that they want to blame. Even by putting yourself out there as somebody to empathize and support, That could put you in that position of vulnerability if this person continues to deteriorate. Hopefully that won't be the case. It is more rare, but it can happen. So by telling a colleague about this gives you a bit of reassurance that it's already kind of on somebody else's radar, and particularly if it's your manager and you trust them to speak about it. I would continue to document any conversations you have with them, any behaviours that you feel are unreasonable, because this could also tip into bullying or harassment in the workplace. It doesn't give somebody a free pass to be toxic, um, just because they're going through a hard time. That doesn't, you know, those 2 things doesn't cancel each other out. Um, so I'd, yeah, start writing some stuff down as well when you have these, these conversations. And I think finally, one thing to do would be to focus on the work that needs to be done. And if you're having an issue with that, escalate it sooner rather than later. So if you're relying on this person for tasks to be completed, it's not being done, have that conversation with them, escalate it if it doesn't improve. Because ultimately, the most, the most dangerous thing for you at the moment is if this person disrupts your work and your performance. Um, and that's the hard boundary you need to set. Yes, I'm gonna be empathetic. I'll put up with you being a bit, a bit mean to me because I understand the context. That said, there's a boundary there in terms of how, where that, that line in the sand is. But when it comes to professionally, when it comes to my performance, that's non-negotiable. I'm not gonna let that, that be impacted. So that would be my advice, but a really tricky situation, one that It sounds like you've handled really brilliantly. So kind of more of the same, protect yourself and have a conversation with a colleague or a manager just to kind of feed, you know, feed them into the whole situation as well.
Al ElliottYeah, sounds, that sounds like great advice. And also sounds like this person is possibly a future manager, uh, because the way, the way they've dealt with this. So that's really, really interesting. Um, if you are male like me, then you probably would be like, oh, I don't know what to do. If you're male and of my age, like approaching 50, you're probably going to go, oh God. I, I, should I even be involved in this conversation? Leigh, what would you say to that if, if the manager was male, 50, perhaps feeling a bit uncomfortable about getting into a conversation like that? I mean, what, what would the advice be?
Leanne ElliottFirst of all, educate yourself. Educate yourself on what menopause is and how it, how it can show in terms of symptoms and the actual physical and psychological experience that person is going through. It is significant. It's significant. Is going back to the divorce situation. As a happily married woman, I might not— I might feel a bit uncomfortable talking to somebody about their divorce in the workplace. Um, that doesn't mean that difficult conversation isn't worth having to make sure they have my support and empathy. Um, so, so yeah, just because a conversation is, is awkward or uncomfortable doesn't mean it shouldn't be had. So, educate yourself, prepare for that uncomfortable conversation, knowing that if you show up and support people in those moments, Whether it's menopause, whether it's grief, whether it's divorce, that is gonna be well worth your time in terms of being a decent human, in terms of being a great manager, and in terms of protecting the performance of your organisation.
Al ElliottJust a quick note for men who are males who are perhaps thinking of doing this. If you do read up, then your temptation might be to go, oh, I've read about this, you must be feeling this. And if you're not careful, you move into mansplaining territory. You know, just if you do read up, don't feel like you have to demonstrate that you know anything about this. You know, just be a decent human being and sit down and listen. Okay, question number 2, Leanne. How do you turn a good team into a truly engaged one? This is an interesting one, this. I like this. Hi, Al and Leanne. Oh, this person's listened a couple of weeks ago when someone else said that. We like it when people say hello. I'm hoping for a bit of guidance on this. I manage a small team and things are generally fine. Everyone gets along, and there is no major drama, but honestly, it just feels a bit flat. We've tried some of the usual things like team-building socials, shoutouts in meetings, and they're not really making much of a difference. Have you got any thoughts on what might work to move the team from just getting by to actually feeling engaged and energised?
Leanne ElliottWhat a great question.
Al ElliottBrilliant question. These are great. Do you know what? I'm loving the questions at the moment.
Leanne ElliottYeah, we're getting some really good ones in. My first thought is, how do you know your team's not very engaged and feeling— if they're feeling flat? Are you feeling flat? Sometimes we can project that onto, onto our teams if we're just feeling a bit flat and disconnected from, from our work. So first of all, I'd question why you think things are a bit flat. Um, and as always, if you can collect some data around that, that's always really useful. I understand if you're in a smaller team, um, within an organisation, you might not have Either the resources or financial means of doing that yourself. There's lots of things out there that can be really useful that we've mentioned before. The HSE Management Standards Survey, it's only 30 questions, and that gives you an idea of kind of the climate within the team at the minute. You could do that as a collective, you could do that as individuals, but worth looking at. And why that's also worth looking at is that's going to show you the things that actually help a team feel engaged, and it's not the things that you think it is. It's not the socials, it's not the shoutouts in meetings, it's a bit deeper than that. It is having a clear reason in your work. How is your team connecting with the overall mission delivery of the organisation? Do they believe in that? Do they know how they're contributing to that? And then a step on from that, once they understand that mission, how is their individual role contributing To that. And sometimes these things need a bit of interpretation, a bit of translation within, within a team, or a bit of personalisation, or a bit of localisation. So, for example, when I worked in welfare to work, our kind of overall mission was to end worklessness. It's like, well, that's pretty— that's a lofty mission. I'm not sure, you know, our little team of 6 is going to solve that entire problem sat in an office in, in the Northwest. But we talked about what that meant for us. We talked about how Um, how we do that, what behaviours do we want to see? We treat— another great value of the company was around, we treat everybody like customers, everybody like a human. It's like, well, what does that mean? It means that if someone comes in and they don't have an appointment that day, but they want a cup of tea, they can get a cup of tea. It means that if someone doesn't have an appointment, they have an emergency, um, question, then we'll do what we can for any member of staff to help them in that moment. Um, and then book them in at a time that, that kind of works for everybody. It's those little things of like, how do we deal with these situations? How do we show up?
Kristyna HawkettYeah.
Leanne ElliottThat really kind of feeds into the values of the team you're working in. And that value alignment in terms of my personal values and the values of my team is so effective in terms of engagement, in terms of satisfaction, in terms of individual wellbeing, in terms of performance. That's probably one of the biggest things that, that you could do. So, that's where I'd start. I kind of go, if we're all feeling a bit flat, how do we get excited? And the most effective way to get excited that's going to support engagement performance is to think about, well, what's the mission of the organisation? What are we here to do? And how can we get excited about that and our role in pushing this forward? Once you've figured out that, then things like your shoutouts and meetings can have much more of an impact. Because you're going to go, John, it's not even your job to do that, but when that customer came in and needed help, I saw you were there in a flash and you helped them and it was incredible. And that saved me loads of time and That recognition is going to go so much further because it's specific. It's within a context that we've all agreed great looks like, and it's responding quickly as well, and in the moment, shortly after it's happened. So, I think that's where you're probably on step 3 with your recognition, and you probably need to go to step 1 and 2 for your reason and role. So, that would be where I'd start. If your team's a bit flat, how can you get them excited?
Al ElliottYeah, I mean, you can train people to do specific tasks. And they'll go, okay, well, if X happens, do Y. But the fact is, if you know that overall our aim is for every single customer to walk out of our shop, for example, absolutely delighted, and you've got it like Marriott gives every single employee, I think, $500 a month they can spend on fixing any problem they want to make a customer delighted. Once you understand that, you don't need training because most people have got common sense. They'll go, Ah, yeah, look, that person's walking out the door and they're chuntering. Chuntering, such a Northwest word. And they're like muttering to themselves at the, you know, and you go over and go, was everything all right today? You look like you're not happy. Can you imagine a customer walking out and then someone, you know, a cleaner? So I'm not saying like necessarily in terms of like hierarchy, but just someone whose job it's clearly not coming over to you and going, do you know what? I just noticed you walking away from the till there and you just didn't seem 100% happy. Was something gone wrong? And they go, yeah, she was really quite rude to me. Or No, they, they said they hadn't got— do you know what I mean? And that sort of thing, because everyone's aligned on the role. This is the janitor and the, and the putting a man on the moon, sir. Everyone's aligned on what the company is doing. You don't need so much training. You just let people use their initiatives.
Leanne ElliottYep. Couldn't— yeah, 100%. And, and it's that bigger picture that is really going to connect us to our work. And we talk about it flip, you know, flippantly, but that's what meaningful work is. That's what purpose-led work is. It's when our values are aligned, our personal and professional values are aligned. And if we can be in a team and all of our values are aligned, oh, that's when the magic really does, really does happen. So yeah, have a, have a think about how to get them excited, how you can create this meaningful work, these values reflect on, um, and yeah, have a really open-hearted conversation with, with your team and hopefully they'll be excited to have those conversations too.
Al ElliottFabulous answer as always, my love. Okay, so question number 3, how do you let a star employee go when they've crossed the line? Oh no. I'm looking for some advice on what's turned into a really tricky situation. We've got an employee who's been a star performer for years, but honestly, one of the best we've ever had. But over the last 6 months, things have seemed to have unravelled a bit. It began with medical issues and family problems, and we've done everything we can to be supportive and accommodating. But then we discovered she'd been working a second job— naughty— for a competitor— double naughty— claiming she was working from home for us at the same time. We're a small team and this has created a massive workload for everyone else. We're at this crossroads. Do we fire her outright or try to encourage her to resign? We're obviously worried about potential fallout like unemployment claims, possible legal headaches, that sort of thing. And also a second question is, how do you balance what's fair for the team without turning this into a bigger problem? This is a fabulous question. Terrible situation, but it's great for us.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And I think particularly if you're a small business owner, I'm sure this superstar has played a major role in your growth and the loyalty you have to them is going to be, is going to be really strong. So it's going to be a hard situation. I'd imagine you're finding this situation really, really hard and really quite, quite upsetting. How you handle it is how you'd handle, um, the situation with any other employee, any other, um, misconduct that happens in your organisation. There is no difference because that is bias, and we can't do that, particularly in these situations. The first thing is going to be to look at your employment contract and see if there's actually something in there that says that this person isn't allowed to hold another full-time job with a competitor. Because if there isn't anything that explicitly says that in there, oh, it might be difficult. You can now work that back in, and it might be a lesson learned in terms of future contracts, or are we drafting everyone's contracts? But unless it says it specifically, and why would it? Because this isn't a problem that has been around very long. It's a very recent problem that some employers are faced with, this overemployment or moonlighting, whatever you want to call it. So, first of all, you're going to have to check your contract and see if that's actually there already. And then follow the process. You're going to have a disciplinary process in your organization, you need to by law phone ACAS if you're in the UK, a similar organization, um, they'll have them in, in the US, um, to see what the process is, what your legal rights are. It's going to be about collecting evidence, you collecting evidence, them collecting evidence as a defense, um, and making sure that everything is done above board. It sounds like you're going to come to the come to the conclusion that there is a case for gross misconduct here, and you, yeah, you, you fire this person, which is very sad. In terms of forcing a resignation, legally you're not allowed to do that, even though we know it happens a lot. We're not allowed to do that, really. Um, it has to be voluntary. Um, so yeah, very careful. Again, I'm not an HR professional, and there'll be, there'll be ways that you could potentially Um, I guess encourage this outcome, but really that, that's, that's not on the right side of the law. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend that. I think the thing to remember in terms of this impact on the broader team, and that's a great question to ask, and this is more my wheelhouse than the kind of disciplinary process itself. For every toxic superstar you have, and this is what this person has become, More— they're probably not even as good as toxic superstar at this point because they're just toxic. They're a former superstar who is toxic. That has such an impact on your team. You'd need to probably hire like 3 or 4 more absolute superstars just to make up for the detrimental impact this person is having on your team's morale, performance, productivity. There is no coming back from it. There is no shielding your team from it. The fact that their workloads have gone up, that's one of the biggest biggest impacts on disengagement. If somebody has a high workload, it's one of the biggest— has one of the biggest impacts on wellbeing and stress. You're putting your team under immense amount of pressure, um, at huge risk to yourself because you could start to see these people leave. So, it's very important that you deal with this quickly. It's not tolerated. And if this person will remain in your organisation for whatever reason, it's limiting the impact they can have on the rest of the team. Very clear boundaries, very clear understandings of of how they are allowed to remain in the organisation and what the performance expectations are, and follow it to the book, and make sure this is communicated very transparently with the person involved. But I think for me, it would be get through this process as quickly, as effectively, as compliantly as possible. Hope that it's done in a couple of months and minimise the impact on the team. In the interim, if you do have the resources, if there's any way you can bring in some additional support, to pick up some of that extra workload, that would be a really positive and immediate action you could take to support the team. But yeah, tricky one, and I imagine it's emotional as well as it is kind of a process-led question. But I think, yeah, it comes down to you deal with this as you would anyone else in your organisation who is going through some form of misconduct investigation.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. And like Leanne said, it probably will be personal. Um, because, you know, this person is— the way you write about them is that they're, you know, they're very special and you admire them. So try and put that to one side. Just a quick— again, Leanne's more of an expert in HR than I am, and she admits it's not her wheelhouse, but just a thought that there may not be something in there saying you can't work another job or you can't work for our competitors, but there probably will be something in there around IP secrets, all that kind of stuff.
Leanne ElliottHours worked.
Al ElliottHours worked. That's probably the leverage. And in fact, the secrets thing. And the IP stuff, that's probably the paragraph you want to leverage here to get a nice clean break because it's almost indefensible, I would imagine. I would imagine. Lee, that was fantastic. Thank you so much. We're back next week unless we kicked out of Montenegro. We're back next week with another workplace surgery. We're also going to be back with obviously all the other stuff you heard today is the news roundup. We're coming back with the hot take. We're coming back with the clever and witty banter that happens just naturally between the two of us. And also in this slightly echoey room with what, uh, what we think is a pretty decent view, but it's not our view of our own backyard. But anyway, what can you do? Leanne, anything else to add before we let these lovely people go?
Leanne ElliottOnly to say, join us again on Thursday. We will have some kind of interview for you. As you know, our life has been very significantly disrupted, so we will have an episode. What it looks like, we're not entirely sure, but hopefully it'll be an incredible interview with an incredible guest, or maybe just some more insights into what actually working as a couple in business looks like. I can— how you handle that from time to time. But we will be back on Thursday and again next Tuesday.
Al ElliottYeah, quick shout out to Joel, Vanessa, Gary, Tim, Steve, Wrote, Richard, and particularly Jeff, who we unfortunately last Thursday had to cancel everything for the week, um, that's just gone. And they were so lovely about it and going, that's okay, these things happen. So thank you very much to all those people. Thank you for listening. And, uh, if you want to, you know, if you, if you haven't Listen to the previous episode. What, episode 201? Full story there. Lots of juicy goss.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSee you next week.
Leanne ElliottLove you.
Kristyna HawkettBye.
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, where behavioural science meets workplace—
Leanne ElliottThe award-winning. And we are doing something that I can't remember.
Al ElliottSorry. Yes. Yes. I was looking at how pretty you were in this camera. I'm just pointing at you. Carry on.
Leanne ElliottAl, you're here for my mind.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottYou have to cut that out. You can't say things like that these days. Those weak ties. How much those people would actually— sorry, I'm a little alone.
Al ElliottDunning-Kruger effect, is it? When you remember something like you're looking for a red car and No, Dunning-Kruger's when you think you know more. There's, if you're listening and you know what I'm talking about, there's something where if you, if you're gonna go and buy a red car, a red Škoda Karoq, then when it, then for the next 2 weeks you see red Škoda Karoqs all around. Don't know what it's called. Barden-Barden syndrome, we'll call it for now. Talking of cheese, no, of breaks, we are gonna go to a very quick one.
Leanne ElliottLet's go and meet Kristyna and find out her top take. Do I need to do that last bit again?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWell, like, I, I honestly did say when, when Kristyna was, uh, gave us a hot take, she