Truth, Lies & Work

Episode 204 · 10 June 2025 · 58:46

Boss traumas, 2am callers and benefit ballers. PLUS! Is alcohol a well-being blindspot?

Boss traumas, 2am callers and benefit ballers. PLUS! Is alcohol a well-being blindspot?

0:000:00

Tip: click any timestamp below to jump there and keep playing.

Enjoying the show? Subscribe for free

SpotifyFollow on SpotifyApple PodcastsSubscribe on AppleAmazon MusicListen on AmazonYouTubeWatch on YouTubeAnother appSee all platforms →

Chapters & timestamps

Click any timestamp to jump the player to that moment.

  1. Story 1 — Are we normalising trauma at work?

    news roundup#trauma#workplace#normalizing

  2. Story 2 — 8 ways to say 'screw you' at work

    news roundup#workplace#communication#conflict

  3. Story 3 — Why you're still hiring the wrong leaders

    news roundup#hiring#leadership#recruitment

  4. Hot Take — Is alcohol a workplace wellbeing blind spot?

    hot take#alcohol#wellbeing#workplace

  5. Workplace Surgery — firing a client over a 2am call

    workplace surgery#client#boundaries#work-life-balance

  6. Workplace Surgery — am I building a great place to work?

    workplace surgery#company-culture#leadership#employee-engagement

  7. Workplace Surgery — why did they only offer part-time after I quit?

    workplace surgery#part-time#resignation#career

Show notes

Boss Traumas, 2am Callers & Benefit Ballers — Is Alcohol a Wellbeing Blind Spot?

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down a viral LinkedIn post exposing the reality of toxic bosses, decode the passive-aggressive classics of workplace email, and ask whether it's time to treat alcohol as a workplace issue rather than a personal one. Plus, in Workplace Surgery: should you fire your biggest client for calling at 2am?

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Are we normalising trauma at work? A viral LinkedIn post by Laura Lanier asked: "Have you ever had a boss so bad that it left you traumatised?" The hundreds of comments that followed ranged from the shocking to the absurd — from walking in on an employee pumping, to racist slurs, to being forced to work the day after surgery. The pattern is clear: we've let poor leadership become workplace trauma. Leanne reached out to several commenters to hear their full stories.

2. 8 ways to say "screw you" at work (without getting fired) Lee Harding (aka The Introverted Recruiter) has decoded the passive-aggressive classics of workplace comms. Think "per my last email," "to reiterate," and "respectfully" — but translated into what people actually mean. Al and Leanne run through the best ones and agree: we all know the translation, we just can't say it out loud. Source →

3. Why you're still hiring the wrong leaders The Christie NHS Trust ditched personality tests in favour of behaviour-based assessments — and transformed their leadership culture. This case study from Real World Group offers real lessons for any founder or hiring manager: not all leaders are equal, and the behaviours that matter differ by role. Source →

🍷 Hot Take: Is Alcohol Still a Workplace Taboo?

Author and coach Tabbin Almond argues that workplace drinking is a wellbeing blind spot. From networking norms to pressure to fit in, alcohol affects more than you think — and it's time businesses stopped treating it as a personal issue.

Al and Leanne dig into:

  • Why alcohol is a wellbeing issue hiding in plain sight
  • The exclusion factor — who's left out when the pub is where deals happen?
  • Why managers shouldn't police drinking, but should lead by example
  • The link between drinking culture and mental health, energy, and performance

More from Tabbin Almond: winetowatercoaching.com · Bottling Up Trouble · LinkedIn

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

  1. The 2am caller: "My biggest client called me at 2am. I'm ready to let them go — but a friend says I'm overreacting. Am I?"
  2. The great place to work: "I run a business, people seem happy, we match pensions at 6% — but how do I know if I'm really building a great place to work?"
  3. The part-time problem: "I asked to go part-time in February. They said no, month after month. Last week I resigned — and suddenly they offered me part-time. Why?"

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

More From This Episode

🎧 Coming Up Thursday

Hate corporate jargon? Join us for a masterclass in workplace communication. We'll decode the phrases that make you sound credible — and the ones that make you sound like a walking HR punchline.

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work, what if your boss didn't just annoy you, they traumatised you? A viral LinkedIn post triggered a flood of stories about bullying, burnout, and psychological harm at work. This week we're asking, have we normalised trauma in the workplace?
Leanne ElliottAre you hiring leaders based on personality? Well, one NHS trust has challenged that idea and found that assessing behaviour not charisma, completely changed who got the job and who excelled. Are we measuring the wrong thing when it comes to leadership potential?
Al ElliottAnd in the workplace surgery, would you fire your best client if they called you at 2 AM? One listener wants to know when going the extra mile stops being impressive and starts being unsustainable.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottLet's get into today's episode right after a word from our sponsors.
Leanne ElliottHubSpot's Inbound Event 2025 is bringing together the brightest minds in business, AI, and entrepreneurship. We're talking Amy Poehler, the genius behind ChatGPT, Dario Moradei, and Sean Evans from Hot Ones. Because apparently even hot sauce interviews can teach us about business strategy.
Al ElliottYeah, September 3rd until September 5th in San Francisco. And no, this isn't just another one of those conferences where you pretend to take notes while secretly checking your phone. This is 3 full days of actionable insights that you can actually use to grow your business.
Leanne ElliottWhat I love about this is the focus on practical application. We enjoy applied science here. You're not just sitting through fluffy keynotes. You're getting tactical breakout sessions, networking with people who are actually building things, and learning from entrepreneurs who figured out how to thrive in this AI-powered world.
Al ElliottPlus, come on, you're in San Francisco, the global headquarters of let's disrupt everything and see what happens. It's the perfect place to meet your next co-founder, investor, or just someone who gets why you're obsessed with optimizing your customer acquisition funnel.
Leanne ElliottHead to inbound.com/register to see the range of tickets, including VIP options for Fancy, fancy, fancy, fancy. Trust us, your future self will thank you for actually investing in learning something useful. Guess what, Al?
Al ElliottWhat?
Leanne ElliottWe're gonna be there.
Al ElliottNo, we're not.
Leanne ElliottI am. I'm manifesting.
Al ElliottOh, okay. Yeah, we're— yeah, you can come and meet us there. There you go. That's the reason to, to go and book your ticket today. VIP experience will no doubt include us. I'd imagine they'd invite us to the VIP area. So go and visit inbound.com/register to get your ticket today. Welcome back. Welcome back. I hope it's summer for you where you are. It's definitely summer here in, uh, in Kotor in Montenegro. It's beautiful. Beautiful. But anyway, that's enough chat. It's sweaty. It is a little sweaty. It is a little sweaty.
Leanne ElliottBecause we can't have the aircon on when we record, see? So over the next 45 minutes, we're gonna get increasingly hotter and sweatier. So look out for that if you're watching on YouTube.
Al ElliottFun, fun. Anyway, onto your favorite time of the week, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottIt is.
Al ElliottIt is time for the world famous— no, it's not. It's time for— what, what time is it now?
Leanne ElliottThe news roundup. That's my favourite time of the week, Al. The news roundup.
Al ElliottIt's going so well. Okay, Le, what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottHave you started the jingle? I didn't ask you to.
Al ElliottYes, the jingle started. The jingle has definitely started.
Leanne ElliottWhat have I seen this week? Have you ever had a boss that was so bad it left you traumatised?
Al ElliottI haven't really had a boss since 2002, so not really, but I I have heard of other people.
Leanne ElliottYou've had a pretty bad boss though.
Al ElliottYes, I had a very bad boss. Yes, I remember particularly. I won't name that person, but yes.
Leanne ElliottI've definitely had some bosses that have, yeah, left a feeling or two. But this is a question posed by Laura Lanier on LinkedIn. Laura is a product and content writer at Rabbet. Is that how you say it? Or Rabbet? I don't know. I'm assuming it's English. I think it's American. I think it's American. Rabbet, R-A-B-B-E-T. Um, the comments, Al. Oh my gosh, the comments. It was a scary place to be, that comment section, not gonna lie.
Al ElliottSo what did the post say?
Leanne ElliottSo the post actually said word for word, have you ever had a boss so bad that it left you traumatized? Vent to me, I'm feeling salty. Um, which immediately grabbed my attention and many other people's attention too. Um, at the time of recording, this post has got 224 comments, 5 reposts, more than 200 Reactions. Um, so yeah, it's hitting a nerve. So I dived into the comments, had a look through. I have asked permission from the people who left these comments for me to share them, so I'm only going to read out the ones that have said, yeah, cool, don't worry. Um, there were some others that understandably didn't, didn't want to. It feels wrong to say these are my favourite given the subject matter, but they're the ones that made me go like jaw drop.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottYeah, proper.
Al ElliottGoodness me.
Leanne ElliottSo here, here are some of them, Al. Um, Catherine Boyd, who is a strategic marketing director, shared that she had a boss try to get her to join a cult he belonged to and withheld money from my paycheck to pay for the first meeting.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottThe next one came from Katie Ryder, a data analyst. Katie said, I quit my— I quit after my boss walked in on me pumping. Breast milk pumping, not like humpy pumpy. Um, walked in on me breast pumping, um, and HR said it was my fault and I still had to report him. That was just the tipping point. I'm still traumatized and have flashbacks from working there. I'm slowly recovering with time.
Al ElliottHang on, so the boss walked in on this person pumping and HR said that they had— she had to report the boss?
Leanne ElliottYes. So I actually messaged Katie about this and she, she actually shared a post about a year ago. Um, that said this: One year ago today, I survived a workplace trauma that shaped where I am today. I tell this story, people's jaws usually drop. I was in my private office of 9 years pumping when the door suddenly opened. My boss, CEO, barged in. Since he did not knock and ignored my pumping sign, he saw me with my shirt up, breasts out, pumps on exposed, and I had to yell at him to leave my office. After talking with HR, I sent in my statement along with some things he said during my pregnancy. Um, weeks passed. I was terrified to be at work, did not leave my office or my lab area. Mental health was declining along with my milk supply. Um, there's a whole post which I'll leave a link to. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's unbelievable, isn't it, that, that, yeah, that, that's her fault even though she had a sign up? Uh, another one came from Nick Power, who's possibly the most famous person on LinkedIn at the moment. Have you been pulled into the Nick Power universe?
Al ElliottNo. Who's Nick Power?
Leanne ElliottNick Power is some— well, he's, he's a marketer. Um, from America, and he's just somehow got like LinkedIn famous. Um, everyone follows him, tags him in posts. Um, it's like if you want to beat the algorithm, you tag Nick Power. Um, he doesn't like to use capital letters. So, um, it's a vibe. Anyway, Nick said, um, had a boss show me in a magazine the image of the sports car he was going to buy with all the money we made this quarter shortly before denying my request for a raise. I left 2 months later.
Al ElliottWell, that was foolish, wasn't it? I think, yeah, we, I've, I've had a boss who was, um, way back in the day and he was like, right, okay, so we've got a brand new Range Rover. And then I had to do his accounts for him as well as personal accounts as well. He asked me to do that. Um, and I could see how much he paid for it. And then, then he complained. He, he also did this thing to me. He said, right, okay, you're a contractor, so you invoice me £500 for every sale I made. He said, are you VAT registered? I said, no. He says, all right, so we take off 17.5% of that and that's what I pay you because you're not VAT registered. I kept saying VAT stands for Value Added Tax, not value— it's not VDT, Value Deducted Tax. But yeah, and yes, I left shortly afterwards. And also they did a Radio 4 Expose, um, like documentary thing on him later on. So he was a bad man.
Leanne ElliottBad man with very, very bad ideas.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottUm, so yeah, that was Nick. Go and follow Nick. I'll go and, um, have a look and, and report back next week. Um, another one. Oh, this was, this was really shocking. Trivia Dali, um, strategic HR and talent lead. Not a boss, but I had a co-worker once call me a half-breed.
Al ElliottWhat the hell's a half-breed?
Leanne ElliottIt's to do with her race. She's mixed race.
Al ElliottOh, okay. Yeah, I'm not even gonna get into that one.
Leanne ElliottShocking. I again had a conversation, um, with Trivia about this, and she was saying that she's sat on it for like 6, 7 years because Um, she was an intern at the time, didn't feel that she could speak up, which I think is very, you know, a very common experience for young people. So yeah, awful. Um, another one came from Sharni Anderson, who is a chartered accountant. Um, she said, most of my former bosses were bullies. When I spoke up about pay disparities, one manager told me I was just a senior accountant. It didn't matter that I had over 20 years of experience, which included training and mentoring people, 3 certifications and 2 degrees, and I spent 2 years as an interim director For a client in that company. I walked away from corporate last year to start my own bookkeeping business. Now I have an amazing boss.
Al ElliottWhich is her. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very good. Bookkeeping always makes me chuckle because it always makes me think of someone who keeps books, like beekeeping and bookkeeping. They're just not the same idea anyway.
Leanne ElliottAh, like a librarian should be called a bookkeeper.
Al ElliottExactly. Exactly. That's what I keep thinking, but it's not the same thing at all. And also, is it 2 Ks? Is it bookkeeping or bookkeeping? Anyway, questions for another day.
Leanne ElliottAnother day.
Al ElliottDo you see any more?
Leanne ElliottI did. Um, this one actually came from Mile Živković, um, who is in Belgrade.
Al ElliottOh, hello.
Leanne ElliottI know. SEO and content leader for SaaS brands. Um, this was awful. Um, so he said, my wife was having lung problems and I had to drive to see a— drive her to see a doctor. Asked my manager to leave our one-to-one meeting early. All I got was, I'm sure there are taxis available where you live.
Al ElliottOoh, that's not cool.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Um, also had a little chat with, um, me there. He said, he told me that if, um, if I wanted to add some more details, that manager made his life a living hell. Everyone was afraid to report him. Took them almost 3 years to fire him, long after I was gone.
Al ElliottJust goes to show, right? Leanne's always said people don't leave organisations, they leave managers. And so if you've got a bad manager, look at the damage they are doing. Anyway, that's again a different story for a different day. Soapbox dismounted. Anything else? Any, any other comments?
Leanne ElliottYeah, we had, um, Jacqueline, content marketer. Um, I worked under a CMO, chief marketing officer, who decided she didn't like me for no real reason, which was confirmed by my direct manager. She was rude and condescending, and she once told one of my very busy and productive coworkers She didn't know what the coworker did for 8 hours a day. It was like Mean Girls, the workplace.
Al ElliottThat's the film, the movie.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottOh, honestly, some of— there were so many. I was really, really sad making— I'll share a couple more. We had Joshua, who is an amateur DB architect, airman, author, said, I had groin surgery. They made me wear a catheter to the office.
Al ElliottOoh, I'm a bit squeamish about that kind of thing, so I don't want to go too much into that one.
Leanne ElliottIt's like, give, give the guy some days to recover.
Al ElliottCome on.
Leanne ElliottGoodness me.
Al ElliottUm, how vital is the architect business? Is it like, you need to come in and finish this drafting, otherwise the hospital is not going to get built?
Leanne ElliottUh, and one more— there's absolute loads, but I'll show one more. Nicoletta, who's a life coach, um, she said, I once had a boss That after I was passed on a promotion and I reached out for feedback and improvement tips for 4 months, gave me only one piece of feedback. Maybe you'll want to have a baby anyway.
Al ElliottOoh, was this 1965, was it?
Leanne ElliottYou'd think so, wouldn't you? You'd think so. Um, so yeah, shocking, shocking stories there, and I'm sure there's loads more that people have to share, but for whatever reason don't want to do it on a public platform. What's so silly is that Everyone's going, oh yeah, I've had a bad manager, but very few people are probably going to admit that they used to be the bad manager or they are the bad manager. I think, you know, some of these stories are really horrific. I mean, the half-breed comment, completely unacceptable. Um, the catheter in the office, they're maybe gonna have a baby anyway. That's like, you know, really bad discriminatory, um, things coming from managers. But there was one that maybe kind of, it kind of put into context for me how we might be normalising the behaviours. These behaviours just aren't okay. This one came from Cassidy Grigg, who's a copywriter and content strategist. She said, so you know when you do like the me/they kind of things, like scripts. So she said, Mm-hmm. Me, hey, I've been handling our manager's workload since they quit. Can I get paid more for the extra work/stroke hours I've been contributing? Boss, laughs, we don't do that here. Oh, and I just thought that summed up perfectly how many of us engage in, in what's called hope work, um, that we hope that we're going to get something from it if we're not getting, um, that financial gain in the moment. I just think it's things like this that are really adding the pressure on people, um, financially, um, professionally, psychologically. It's, it's a bit of fun and it's a bit of a laugh and it's a bit like, wow, oh my gosh, and it makes us feel great that we're in it together, but really I'd prefer it that we didn't have to be in it together.
Al ElliottYou know, absolutely, absolutely.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, so thank you very much to Laura. I did ask as well her permission to share that, um, post. I'll leave a link to the original post in the show notes. Go follow Laura, she puts some really great stuff on, on LinkedIn. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottWell, this is probably applicable to, uh, to a lot of people you just mentioned in that. I saw a post on— it was on Instagram, which is not my usual—
Leanne ElliottGoodness, what were you doing on the Insta?
Al ElliottTo be fair, I think I saw it on Twitter and they— I saw a link to it on Twitter and then I went over to Instagram. Um, and it's called 8 Ways to Say Screw You at Work. So I think this will be really useful for those.
Leanne ElliottOh, perfect.
Al ElliottPerfect.
Leanne ElliottThis wasn't coordinated.
Al ElliottNo, it wasn't.
Leanne ElliottHit me.
Al ElliottOkay. So now just to be clear, this is someone who is Lee Harding, a Brit. He goes under the Introverted Recruiter handle. He did not say 8 ways to say screw you. He used other words that might rhyme with truck. Uh, so, uh, so yeah, so I've, I've tied it up a little bit. It is hilarious, but a little profane. So you probably don't wanna be playing this in front of your nan or maybe your boss or interrupting work. But it is hilarious if you like a sweary Brit, which to be honest—
Leanne ElliottI do.
Al ElliottI like a sweary Brit. We are sweary Brits. This is, this is our best behaviour on this pod. So here we go. Um, here's 8 ways to say screw you at work. And he said, as per my last email. Now what he suggests is that in other words, I've told you at least Once before, you fricking idiot. You didn't read it, did you? Just go and do the job.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottI, yep. Brilliant. Love that. Uh, number 2, this is, I love this. To reiterate.
Leanne ElliottBecause I've told you fricking once.
Al ElliottHis, his explanation or his translation was, I'm not telling you again, just do it, you. And then there was something poetic. That, to, to reiterate, I really do like that. To reiterate. Um, number 3, I've CC'd in. And then X's person. And he said, this is Nick's idea, is I'm not playing anymore. I'm collecting witnesses at this point. It's so true. When you do CC in someone and you specifically say in the email you CC someone, basically you mean that I want someone else to see the idiocy that I'm gonna have to deal with right here. Number 4, and I love this one, and it's probably maybe just a British one, but thanks for your input. Oh.
Leanne ElliottThat's brutal.
Al ElliottIt's brutal, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottThat's like, that was completely useless, but thank you for wasting my time.
Al ElliottWell, his translation was, that is, hang on a minute, nobody asked you. Literally nobody. I love that. Thanks for your input. I'll be using that at the earliest opportunity. Not with you, Leigh, of course. Uh, number 5, um, as a reminder, um, his suggestion is, I'm not here to, I'm not here to babysit you. You should have already done this. Fair enough. Number 6, respectfully. Now this is so funny because when someone says with the greatest of respect, they don't mean it.
Leanne ElliottRarely with respect.
Al ElliottIf someone says respectfully in an email, you know fine well the next sentence coming outta their mouth is not gonna be good. It's basically be like, I have zero respect for you. Sit the fuck down right now. This is none of your business. So, uh, I wonder if you could send that. I mean, I wonder if that's just like a boss-employee thing. I don't think you can send it to anything other than a colleague or a direct reporter, I don't think. If someone says, moving forward, can we— this is his translation— is, are you seriously this stupid? You've been doing it over and over again. Please never do this again. Moving forward, can we not CC in a client when we're talking about putting the prices up, for example? And the last one he said, Which I found myself possibly doing. This is if you send an email and you end it with best regards. Basically what it means is I hate my job, I hate this place, but most of all, I hate you. But I can't say this because I'm going to get fired. So I have to say best regards instead. It's, um, it was a really, really good little video. Again, I say it is quite sweary, but you know, if you're into that kind of thing, which we are, then we absolutely love it. Um, uh, anything else this week? Leanne, what are your thoughts on this? I—
Leanne Elliottit just makes me laugh because everyone, everyone knows the translation. Yeah, you know, everyone— it's, it's this kind of civility at work, but everybody knows what's underlying it.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, so yeah, I think it's, I think it's quite funny. I, I like, I like posts like that, particularly things on, on emails. Um, yeah, they, they're quite good. I also think as well that a similar thing as well, if you like that type of thing, if you just Google like the best out-of-office replies Some of them are beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.
Al ElliottIf you hate corporate talk or you don't want to sound like a corporate, then Thursday's episode is for you. And also you'll learn how you could potentially use some of these phrases, but in a good way. Le, what else you seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottSticking on the recruitment, um, chat, actually, um, a case study fell into my email inbox this week and I thought it was really quite cool. Um, I mean, I think we've all made a hire that we regret at some point, or we've certainly been in an organisation where a hire has been made that, that you see regret coming from leadership. Um, it's a very common, common thing. And I think, you know, particularly because recruitment isn't always necessarily very robust in small businesses. I'm sorry, guys, I'm sorry. But if you, if you engage a psychologist to help you design your recruitment process, then I take it all back. Um, but you know, you're just hoping that, you know, the candidate says all the right things, they have some really sexy achievements on their CV, maybe they even pass your psychometrics, your Myers-Briggs, your DiSCs with flying colors. But once they're in the role, then those signs start to creep in. It very quickly starts to unravel. Um, yes, it's very detrimental for the organisation. Lots of confusion. Um, turnover, and the impact takes ages. Not only the cost of it— we know it's like 5 times the typical salary of the person— it's going to take 2 years to get back up to that level of performance. It's so disruptive. And I think the thing is, what this case study was talking about is they're pinning it on the personality trap. So that for years, companies have used personality psychometrics like your Myers-Briggs, like your DiSCs, maybe even other ones that are much more reputable, like your your Hogans, um, to guide leadership recruitment. And on paper, that makes a lot of sense to figure out the type of person you've got in front of you and then trying to predict how they're going to behave. But as this case study shows— and it was a case study of the Christie NHS Foundation Trust, which is one of the UK's most respected cancer centers in Manchester— um, they realized that personality-based tools weren't doing the job simply because managers found the reports hard to interpret The feedback was vague, and crucially, they weren't getting what they really needed— a clear picture of whether the candidate could actually lead. Now, I get these personality ones kind of being vague. Way back when, I tricked Al into doing the Myers-Briggs and shared his results, but actually just read out his horoscope. And I was like, oh wow, yeah, that's really accurate. Oh wow, yeah, yeah. And that's a Barnum effect, isn't it? When you have like— yeah.
Al ElliottAnyway.
Leanne ElliottSo sorry, Al. Um, it's okay.
Al ElliottI think it was quite good fun.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, it's, it's this case that leadership is discussed differently across, across the organization. We don't have this shared vocabulary for it. We don't even know what great leadership looks like or what great leadership looks like here. Those conversations aren't had. So then to try and recruit somebody in as a leader, it's no surprise that it's not gonna, not gonna work, you know. So that Christy made a different move. They stopped assessing who people were and started assessing what they actually do. So they adopted the Real World Leader Diagnostic, which instead of being a personality-based assessment is a behavior-based assessment, and it looks at the leadership behaviors that have been proven to be effective in the workplace by science. Lots and lots of data behind both the model and these tests as well. So focus on the leadership behaviors proven to drive effective performance. They group them together into ways that make sense, and they basically show what behaviours are being enacted most in an organisation by a leader and which are being enacted least. And what I particularly like about this tool is it's not about behaviours being good or bad. All the behaviours are good and positive, but how and when we enact them can have impact on our people, their performance, and the organisation. So it's having that self-awareness that's really important. So once the candidates have completed the assessment, then they'll have a full feedback session, go through the results, and be allowed to talk about the context within these, um, that these behaviours are being enacted. So it makes it real world rather than like a hypothetical colour or feeling.
Al ElliottRight on brand for Real World Group.
Leanne ElliottAnd of course, as well, then from a candidate experience perspective, it's always going to feel a bit more authentic and a bit more relevant. How many times have you sat through an interview process going, I don't understand What this is showing about how well I can do this job, but okay. Um, and actually, this is one of the key results that they found, um, the Christie, is that they had enhanced candidate experience. So candidates reported a fairer, more transparent, and higher quality recruitment process. They had stronger leadership development from day one because they know already what leadership means and how it's talked about within the organisation. Um, they were able to make sharper, more informed hiring decisions. Um, they reduced turnover after appointment, so that leadership-focused hiring led to stronger job fit and lower early-stage attrition, and it minimized poor hiring fits because focusing on leadership behaviors over personality traits significantly reduced mismatches. That's the key here, really, in terms of the organizational benefit, the benefit for you as a business leader. There's nothing worse, particularly at a senior leadership level, of making a bad hire. I've seen people do it and just the, yeah, the path of destruction it leads for, leaves for, for a long, long time. So if you run a business, and especially if it's growing, especially if this is going to be your first senior leadership hire, it's really expensive to make this type of mistake. So anything you can do to prevent that is going to be a good thing, and taking a behavior-based approach is going to be a really effective way to do it. Because most traditional tools weren't built to assess real leadership. They're built to assess personality, which can be, um, can indicate leadership behavior. Um, so yeah, they measure potential, not performance. But this case study shows that when you get specific about behaviors, the things people actually say and do, your leadership pipeline gets stronger, more diverse, and more effective. And when we think about that connection between behaviour and culture. Culture is defined by the worst behaviours tolerated. It ties it all really nicely and emphasises a point that most people don't get, is that culture starts with recruitment. Um, so yeah, a really interesting case study, doing fabulous, um, fabulous things at Christie's, always do, very innovative. Um, but actually, yeah, taking this science-led approach to improving the quality and effectiveness of their leadership team. How cool is that?
Al ElliottSo what we're saying is that There are some behaviours that this Real World Group is measuring that are better for specific roles like leadership.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and even specific behaviours within different leadership roles.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottBecause not all leaders are equal, not all leaders have the same demands and priorities. And this again is where a job analysis is really effective because you can identify the behaviours that are going to be important in that leadership role and specifically look out for those behaviours. It's also going to show you But potentially where leadership behaviours are lacking within your organisation. If you've done this assessment as well as a development tool, then when you're recruiting people in, you're going to be able to look at, okay, so these are some behaviours that we're currently lacking on, our strengths in. And it just makes a really well-balanced, effective leadership team because it's about behaviour. It's about how we turn up every day, what we do when we're under pressure, what we do when we're stressed, how we deal with our people, how good we are at creating a vision. It's all these lovely leadership behaviours that are so important, but rarely measured in the interview process. And this tool has been specifically designed and tested to do exactly that. It's very, very cool. I will leave a link to the Real World Group, to this case study, and to the Real World Leader in the show notes.
Al ElliottBeautiful, beautiful. Okay, so we're gonna go to a very quick break. After that, we've got our hot take, and then we've got our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. As you know, don't go anywhere. See you in a second. Billion Dollar Moves, hosted by Sarah Chen Spellings, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Leanne ElliottJoin venture capitalist and strategist Sarah Chen Spellings as she asks the hard questions and learns through the triumphs, failures, and hard lessons of the crème de la crème so you too can make billion-dollar moves in venture, in business, and in life.
Al ElliottMaybe start with episode 124, where you're going to hear how industry giants from Canva to Listen to Billion Dollar Moves wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. It is time for our hot take, the moment in the show where we hear a bold opinion about the world of work.
Al ElliottHave you been drinking?
Leanne ElliottI wish I had. And today's is this: we need to start talking about alcohol as a workplace issue.
Al ElliottAlcohol in the workplace, it's kind of like always been a normal thing. Like, well, not always, but in my generation, definitely there used to be Friday drinks. In fact, in my generation, when I did teacher training back in 1997, um, on a Friday, all the teachers, including me, went to the pub, had a couple of pints on a Friday afternoon at lunchtime, and then went back and taught in the afternoon.
Leanne ElliottWow.
Al ElliottIt's just kind of like, you know, you've got client dinners, we've got all that kind of thing. Alcohol seemed to be a normal thing for a lot of people. But is it dangerous? Is it harmless? And let's be honest, is it making some people in the organisation feel a bit uncomfortable?
Leanne ElliottOur guest, Tabin Ahmed, thinks it's time for a rethink. She is the founder of Wine to Water Coaching— nice name— and the author of Bottling Up Trouble, a book that's just been shortlisted for Business Book of the Year. She works with organisations to examine how alcohol shows up in culture and what it's really costing in terms of wellbeing, productivity, and inclusion. Not to mention performance.
Al ElliottSo today she's here to explain why alcohol needs to come off the personal problem list and be recognized for what it actually is, which is a well-being blindspot.
Leanne ElliottWhat I wish people knew is the extent to which alcohol may be harming their business and the fact that it doesn't have to be like that. They can help and avoid leaving so much money on the table effectively and improve their productivity And their profitability. So whether it's public sector or private sector, alcohol, if you've got more than 3 employees, the chances are that alcohol is having a detrimental effect on the organisation. And that isn't necessarily your fault as a business owner or a manager within the business, because it could be just that you Your employees are drinking out of work, but not able to ask for help. Alcohol, it's a weird thing because we are encouraged to drink. If you go to a party and you say you're not drinking, people will say, oh, don't be so boring, just have one, and all of that sort of thing. And so you're kind of encouraged at every juncture in your personal life and your working life to drink. And yet when you get into trouble, it's like you're completely beyond the pale and you shouldn't be doing that. And it's, you know, you need to go and get yourself sorted out and we are not sure we can trust you. And you are sort of a marked man or a marked woman. So people don't ask for help if they feel they've got a problem with alcohol. And it's completely different if you think about heroin or cocaine. If you go to a party, you're not gonna even, you know, nobody's gonna say, I don't think it's such a win, you know, have some cocaine. It just doesn't happen. And so you're not being, we're not being encouraged in the same way. But society encourages the use of alcohol. It's advertised and marketed really heavily. And some very, I would say probably the cleverest people in the advertising business work on the booze accounts.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYou know, it's something that everybody in an advertising agency kind of wants to work on because, you know, they tend to be very good creative accounts. I personally never did work on booze because there was alcohol problems in my family and I didn't really want to get involved in that. And I was lucky enough to work at an agency which was fairly principled. But Therein lies the problem, that people are encouraged to drink. There's virtually no education about the harms that alcohol causes. And when people get into trouble with it, it's an addictive substance, so a substantial proportion will get into some degree of difficulty. They're on their own.
Al ElliottSo I see alcohol as a well-being Like, from what you're saying, it sounds like we're separating things into 2 different parts. We've got social drinking at work events, and then we've got drinking after hours. Yeah. Now, if, if you were a, a business owner or a manager listening now, which of those would you tackle first as like something you need to fix today?
Leanne ElliottFor any organization where there is alcohol as part of working life, They need to look at that because they are, it's directly contributing to problems within their business and within their employees' own lives. If I look around at the people that I worked in during my career in advertising, I mean, I've been to far too many funerals of people who've died unnecessarily early because of diseases which alcohol has contributed to. And we don't have enough awareness of all of that. So, there's definitely an education piece that's needed. But the culture whereby people are made to feel that drinking will help them get on is really quite toxic. I mean, alcohol causes a whole load of health problems, physical health. And I think the thing that people don't really know so much about is the mental health side of things. Alcohol directly and inevitably exacerbates the 3 most common mental health issues: depression, stress, and anxiety. Stress has overtaken sort of musculoskeletal causes as the number one cause of absence, but actually alcohol is causing some of the stress. And so, if— and because people don't feel they can talk about the issues they have with alcohol at work, they may be signed off and even given some counselling sessions, but actually nobody's addressing the real issue. They're addressing the stress, but not the fact that alcohol may be a contributory factor in it.
Al ElliottIf you go out and you have 3 or 4 pints with someone at work, you feel like you know them better. Have I got that wrong? What am I supposed to do instead?
Leanne ElliottThat's a really good question. I was talking yesterday to a Muslim woman. She's never ever drunk in her life. And I'm quite sure she never will. And I said, so we have in the West, we have this belief that, of what you've just said, that That, that's how we get to know people. And I said, how do you, how do you do it? And she said, well, we get to know the real person because alcohol changes you. Nobody is the same after 3 or 4 pints as they are beforehand. And generally speaking, it doesn't change us for the better. I've never met anybody I like more drunk than sober.
Al ElliottI worry about what you are saying. I think I agree with it, but I worry about it because as a manager, Why is it any of my business what people who work for me do after hours? How am I gonna start a conversation saying, Tabin, when you go home, you cannot drink tonight? How am I supposed to do that?
Leanne ElliottI don't think you in any way should. But I think that the way into this is to set an example. Now, I've coached a lot of business leaders who had problems with alcohol themselves. But they still carry shame about that. And they are terrified of people finding out that they had a problem. And that's the thing we need to change because having a problem with alcohol, you don't have to hit a spectacular rock bottom. Most of those people would've been what I would call middle-lane drinkers. It was interfering.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne Elliotthaving their mental health problems. They were feeling groggy. They were lacking energy. They were eating badly, not exercising. But the only way that anybody is going to feel safe and comfortable asking for help at work is if they feel that it's not going to be a black mark against their career development. So, and for that to happen, we need senior people to say, yeah, I had a bit of an issue. I wasn't too happy with the way I was drinking. So, This is what I did, and I've been alcohol-free, or I've been well within government guidelines for the last few months, and it's made a huge difference. It's, you know, let's talk. Let's just make sure that anybody who is struggling a bit gets some support. So, from my point of view, I think just helping people to understand that anybody, just anybody, can become addicted to alcohol. 'Cause it's an addictive substance. Any human being who drinks enough of it will land up with a degree of addiction. And the technical term that's used now by the medical profession is alcohol use disorder, and it is on a spectrum. But unless you intervene, once you get past a certain point, it probably will only get worse. It's an interesting one, isn't it? And I can imagine a lot of managers and leaders listening to this going, oh my gosh, it's another thing that I need to help my people with. And it's like, well, yeah, Maybe, and ideally before anything hits a crisis point. Um, I think it's, you know, even moderate drinking habits can affect productivity, they can affect mental health, um, they could potentially affect absenteeism. I think it's really just a case of knowing your people, having these regular check-ins, and if anything is going on, recognizing that, seeing those behavior changes, those appearance changes, alcohol might be Um, one of the potential, um, challenges that somebody is, is having.
Al ElliottYeah. And there's the other thing that workplace, like in a work drinking or the drinking culture is often quite baked in. So we're going to an awards ceremony or we'll have some champagne. We're going to a client dinner or we're gonna order some wine. We're going out for drinks on a Friday night or a Tuesday night or something like that. So we've gotta be careful because social drinking at work events, especially when it's seen as this way to bond or get ahead, is actually probably pretty toxic.
Leanne ElliottAnd understanding if there is anybody in your organization you're excluding through this type of, of culture, these types of events. You're going to have people in your organization who don't drink, whether that be for moral reasons, health reasons, religious reasons, or they've had challenges with alcohol in the past. It's not about not having fun, but it's making sure that the fun you're having isn't excluding anybody.
Al ElliottYeah, and we don't want to be policing this. We don't want to be saying you must not drink. We need to be leading by example. So responsible drinking if you do drink. Or just creating events perhaps where drinking isn't expected.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I really also thought Tabbyn's point was important about addiction is not a character flaw. We have very negative stereotypes when it comes to addicts, whether it be alcohol, drugs, or anything else. So I think, you know, the medical term is alcohol use disorder, and understanding that exists on a sliding scale. And as we say, you know, if we're going to create this psychological safety for people to share what's going on, that should include disclosures like this from time to time. That's not to say as a manager, it's your job to fix it. It's your job to counsel somebody through it, but it is your job to support somebody in getting the help that they need from the qualified people or organizations.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. So go and check out Tabin. All the links are in the show notes. Just on an aside, um, if you, if you're maybe of my age or 40, 40 years old and upwards, Perhaps you might be thinking, oh well, maybe the drinking is a problem. Gen Z don't drink, so that's not a problem. There seems to be a lot of drug use in Gen Z, recreational drug use, uh, which I think is going to be just as dangerous as alcohol. Um, you know, we, us generations, we all have, we all have our problems and we all have our addictions. So, um, yeah, don't think, oh, Gen Z, it doesn't apply to them. It could be substances rather than alcohol that could be a problem in the future. Anyway, moving on to the world famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. If you never listened before, there are 3 questions submitted. That I put to Leanne. Leanne is a Chartered Occupational Psychologist. She's a workplace well-being expert. She's a— she's just an expert in everything. She knows everything about everything. She does. She always says this every year, every week, but she does. She's brilliant. So we're going to start, as we always do, with question number 1. Am I being dramatic for wanting to fire my best-paying client for a 2 AM call? I run a small design agency, and one of my clients brings in nearly 40% of my income. But they treat me like I'm on call 24/7, shifting deadlines, random phone calls, and now they've rung me 3 times after midnight. I don't think we need to go any further. I think we've got the answer here. But anyway, crack on. The latest was at 2:07 AM just to run an idea past me. I didn't pick up. This morning I got a message saying I was unavailable and unreliable. They might need to reconsider our arrangement.
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Al ElliottHonestly, I'm ready to let them go. Good. But when I told a friend, they said I was overreacting. I just need firmer boundaries. Am I being emotional? Is it okay to fire your top client if they're wrecking your mental health? Lee, seems like a fairly open and shut case here.
Leanne ElliottI think it's absolutely fine to fire a client like that. That's gaslighting. To call you at 2 AM, expect you to be, to be there on demand, and then to blame it on you that you're not reliable and you're unavailable. That's projecting their own toxic behavior onto you. That is gaslighting. No, we don't, we don't do that. Your friend's right, you could look at setting firmer boundaries. It doesn't sound like this person is going to be open to those boundaries being set. I don't know, I think it's, it's one of those things where it's not worth the hassle. It's unlikely it's going to get better. Yes, they might give you a significant chunk of your revenue now, um, but I'm It sounds like if you're ready to let them go, you, you've already made, already made the decision. And my only advice would be being mindful of how you do that, doing it in a way that is, um, you know, kind, is civil, is professional, doesn't leave any bad blood, doesn't mean that they can badmouth you to, to anyone. Um, so with that in mind, it might be worth taking it a step in terms of, of trying to enforce these boundaries, maybe reiterating like, this is how we work, these are the hours we do. If that doesn't suit you, we totally understand.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, we'd, you know, we'd be devastated to, um, to lose you, but this is how we work, this is how we operate, and we're just fundamentally not a fit. We understand if you want to walk away. And if they stay, hold them to those boundaries. And if they don't, then breathe a sigh of relief and take that holiday.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. From a commercial point of view, um, if you, if you have a client who has got— who accounts for more than like 10% of your, of your income, then you don't have a client, you have a boss. Because you have to do whatever they're doing. And the whole point you set up your agency— I had an agency for 10 years— the whole point you set it up is so that you don't have to have a boss. When I had my agency, I had the same thing. I had like 1 or 2 clients which accounted for maybe about 50, 60%. And it was terrifying because I thought, well, I can't sack them because then I'm down 50% of my income or my revenue. Um, I had to end up, you know, in the end it didn't work out well.
Leanne ElliottWell, why?
Al ElliottSo I sent an email. Which perhaps was needed to be a little more, like Leanne said, a little bit more measured, and it wasn't. Um, and that relationship ended, but I felt such a sense of relief. So yes, it was a problem because then I had to go and replace that income, but then I never allowed any client to have more than 10%, um, of, of the revenue share. Um, the, the other thing is that maybe this person is just, is just trying to test you, see how far they can go. Um, it doesn't sound like it. It sounds very much like they They've got some serious problems and serious boundary issues. Um, the, the, the last thing is that if you follow anyone on Twitter like, um, Nick Baked Designs, I think it's called, he quite often will post about saying, just refunded a client today. They bought, they paid their 6 grand subscription on Tuesday. Wednesday they expected me to, to get on a call with them. Um, so I just refunded the money and said, no, not interested anymore. Now, if you are in a position to be able to do that, great. If you're not, then My suggestion is try and work towards being in a position where they call it FU money, where you could just say FU to anyone you want without worrying about whether the implications of that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, really good advice, good tips, and possibly a good— whatever happens with this client, maybe a good moment to think about those things. What are your boundaries? What are the expectations, the SLAs, if you want to be corporate about it, that, yeah, you'll agree with your client as you onboard them. Because yeah, it should hopefully stop this from happening again, but it's just the way it is as well, isn't it? You know, 80% of your problems come from 20% of your clients.
Al ElliottYep, absolutely. Absolutely. And onboarding is a good point actually, because you obviously want to delight a client when you onboard them, but at the same time, if you are then answering, you know, sending emails at 9 o'clock at night, or they bought the package at 7 o'clock and they got an email at 9, you're setting the wrong expectations there. So yeah, just be careful with that.
Leanne ElliottAnd that's something that any good consultant will work out during contracting. They'll have these conversations in terms of what you expect from me, this is what I expect from you. It's a mutual adult-to-adult professional relationship. You're well within, um, within your rights, and, and what great consultants do is set those boundaries in, in the contracting phase. So yeah, it's actually a really good book. I'll leave a link in the show notes. It's called something like Organizational Change in Consulting. I don't— can't remember. Sexy title, but it's got a whole chapter on contracting, which is actually really good. Goes into psychology of it. So I'll leave a link if that's useful.
Al ElliottOkay, question number 2. Am I doing enough to make this a great place to work? Oh, oh, lovely. I run a business in the UK with 30+ employees, and I've been trying to build a workplace people actually enjoy being part of. Beautiful. I've made some changes over the past couple of years, and I'd appreciate your thoughts, Leanne, on whether I'm on the right track or if there's more I should be thinking about. Here's a rough idea of what we've done. 4-day week for office staff, same pay. Brilliant. Everyone's had a decent pay rise. Brilliant. We increase annual leave, adding extra sick leave. Um, great. We cover health, dental, accident insurance. I'm gonna— I wanna go and work here.
Leanne ElliottMe too.
Al ElliottWe match pension contributions up to 6%. We're also looking at adding things like a couple of life's too short days each year for when you just wanna make the most of the sunshine. I like that. They call them duvet days as well, don't they? Mm-hmm. That's probably— I'm guessing that's a winter thing. Uh, secondly, a paid sabbatical every few years. Thirdly, help with childcare. 40, profit sharing. Um, just be careful with profit sharing. We've, uh, we had Sir Kerry Cooper on and, um, he explained that this company was trying to do profit sharing and they did a load of work around it. Turns out people didn't want it.
Leanne ElliottIt was equity share, that one, actually.
Al ElliottWas it equity?
Leanne ElliottYeah, even worse.
Al ElliottYeah, so just be careful with that. People seem pretty happy, but I want to keep improving. Have you seen anything that really makes a difference to how people feel at work? Anything I should be careful of? Lee, lovely question.
Leanne ElliottLovely question. Um, good for you. For approaching your business and your people in this way. Very cool stuff. We know all of those things have great connections with performance, with engagement, with wellbeing, productivity, all really great. I would say before, I guess there's 2 things here. To answer your immediate question, is there anything more you could be doing? You're not, I can't answer that. You're gonna have to ask your people. They're gonna tell you what is needed in the organisation, what benefits they're really enjoying. It was actually Jeanette Ramsden from the Curve Group. He said that it's part of their kind of like annual review, 6-month review. She asked people what they want the organisation to keep and what they'd be okay with them getting rid of. So, things they'd absolutely want to keep came up time and time again was a 4-day work week. Things that they'd want to get rid of might be things like your life's too short days or anything else. It might not be as valuable as you think. And of course, that's going to depend on employee to employee or team to team, and it might be that that sentiment's going to change over time.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, I think, first of all, ask your people. Second, I think my advice at this point would be, now would be a really good time to measure the return on investment of all these wonderful things that you're doing. And a really great employee engagement insights survey is going to help you do that because it's going to show you how people are thinking and feeling within your organisation. It's going to show you how that's tied to, um, kind of the cultural foundations of the organisation, what's going on, and that's going to include things like benefits, how decisions are made, relationships, purpose-led work, having meaning, having the right resources, which will include training as well. And it's also going to tie into the impact that's having on the individual in terms of their wellbeing, their performance, their productivity, as well as the impacts it's having on the organisation. So, for example, your speed to market, your turnover rates, your absenteeism rates, all that type of thing. Um, because I think what you're doing is, is really admirable, and you've chosen things that we know from the research and, and organisational life are typically really great for performance, wellbeing, and engagement. What you want now is more granularity around the impact these things are having within the context of your specific organisation, in the context of your specific teams and people. So, my advice would be get an employee engagement survey. Um, in every year so you can start to track through and see the return on investment of all these wonderful things that, that you're doing. Um, just in case maybe someone come knocking on your door one day and say, you've got a cool business, I want to buy it, and you'll go, no worries, here's all the information you need about my culture, which is increasingly becoming part of the due diligence process for, uh, investors. So, there you go.
Al ElliottYeah, great. I might— maybe I'm being a bit unfair, but I would just counsel you just to be a little bit Careful of what you're promising, because if you— the last thing you want to do is give something and then have to take it away. So be really careful of that. Um, also, you don't want to be— you don't want to look too like— maybe Leanne's gonna disagree with you, but I worry that maybe you might look like you're a bit more desperate for them to— people to stay. And then the power of balance might shift, people going, well, he's doing all this to make us leave. We know we can go and demand a higher, you know, a pay rise or something like that. I hope that's not the case, but it's just great that you're putting all this together. Those 4 things you mentioned— profit sharing, help with childcare, paid sabbatical, and life too short days— why not just run a poll on, like Leanne said, on Slack or something? Or, you know, you just do it old-fashioned way with a piece of paper. You know, just get people to tell you which of these they actually want, and then you'll soon find, and then just implement one of them, and then you've then got the ability to implement something else. And I would also, from a commercial point of view, I'd also maybe Tie them to revenue targets or targets within your organization so that you can say, right, okay, well, if we can get 3 clients, 3 new clients in this next quarter, what we'll do is everyone's going to get a Life Too Short day. And then, you know, now, Leigh, quick question on that. Is that unethical or is that okay?
Leanne ElliottUm, I think as long as it's very transparent, it's stuck to, people are in agreement with it, they've been able to, um, yeah, provide their thoughts on that process before it's implemented, I think that's fine. Um, yeah, I think there's no harm in that. But I think the thing is then that, and where I agree, Al, in terms of starting to, to not just promise too much or invest too much that then is going to cause problems elsewhere, especially if it's not something that people necessarily need or want, is by having these insights. So, for example, if you, um, you run your insights, you implement the childcare support, you might find that over the 6 months from certain people in the organisation who are who are parents or carers, you'll see an increase in their performance because they're less stressed. That mental load that we talked about last week has reduced. They've solved that one problem. They're more productive because they can focus while they're at work. They're more committed to the organisation. So, there's less turnover from parents in the organisation. And you should see that track through over the 12 months when you run your survey again. So, you're going to be able to say that, right, by implementing childcare support, we increase performance in X population of the organization by 10%. We reduce turnover by 20%, um, and profits up, which we put down to increased productivity. So it's, it's, yeah, it's a nice way to actually make, um, all this lovely people and culture stuff actually commercial. And we need it to be commercial so we can keep businesses like yours open, because that's how we want everyone to be treated.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. It's a good look. Let us know how it goes. Okay. Question number 3. Why did they only offer what I asked for after I quit? Oh no. This person works in the public sector. Said, like a lot of people, I've been hybrid for a while, one day a week in the office, which went really well. But we were told in February that full-time office attendance was mandatory again. Since then, it's been awful. I'm stuck in traffic, paying to park, don't see my dog, who's left alone for 10 hours.
Leanne ElliottOh.
Al ElliottUm, I asked to go part-time in February. They said no. I kept asking month after month. They still said no. Last week I got a job offer elsewhere. Well done. Yay. Before accepting it, I double-checked with senior management. Is part-time definitely not an option? They said no. So I resigned. And a few days later, suddenly they came back to me and says— my— this is my current employer— came back to me and said they can offer part-time. Honestly, I'm furious. Why wait until I quit to offer the only one thing I've been asking for? Is this just the way it goes in some workplaces, or is there some power play going on, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottI think that's how things work in the public sector typically. I'm not sure it's a power play. I'm not sure it's that, that deep or intentional. I think my— and this is very stereotypical and possibly very unfair— my experience of public sector— I've worked in various public sector organisations or with various public sector organisations and departments— is there's very much like a A closed-mindedness. It's like, well, we don't do that. Computer says no. They just don't have the flexibility of thought or systems or process. And I understand because typically these organizations are machines, but a lot of leaders don't always think they have that flexibility within their teams and departments. And typically they do. Um, or it just seems too hard, or they don't want you to go part-time because they value you as a full-time employee. I think just, it's very typical of a public sector organization mindset, whereas if it's not broken, we won't fix it. And you broke it when you quit, so they tried to fix it. The real question is, how much do you care? I understand that you're furious. I would be furious too, because you've tried in a really flexible way, at financial detriment to yourself, to solve this problem. So I guess it's at this point, if they've let you down that much, An organization like that probably isn't going to change very quickly. Then what happens the next time? Say you stay, you go back. What happens when you have another request? What happens when your dog is ill and you need to take them to the vets? What happens if you suddenly get some caring responsibilities and you require that flexibility around working from home again? It sounds like you're not being over-demanding, but your life requires some degree of flexibility, and you work at your best when you have that flexibility. So, my advice would be find an organisation who's willing to give you that flexibility, whether that be part-time or full-time, whatever works best for you. At this point, I would double-check with the organisation who's offered you a job that they are flexible, that they do offer these things and have offered them for a time. Maybe try and get in touch with some people via LinkedIn to get their views on it very subtly, and then make a decision. Because the worst thing is probably going to be if you go to this new organisation, they're as rigid as the old organisation, because it's kind of at this point, So that's all I'd say. But ultimately, it sounds like this public sector organisation isn't for you in the long term. Um, so my thoughts would be it might be time to move on.
Al ElliottIf you did want to stay, then you're in a good negotiating position. Yeah, if they want you to stay, you go part-time. Yeah, but, um, I want full-time hours, full-time pay, or something like that. I mean, maybe not full-time pay, but you could potentially angle that. But then, you know, Are if you're not happy, you can leave. you just creating resentment? Are you just creating a problem for yourself down the line? Is your line manager gonna be like, why, why is he getting paid more than me? He or she, sorry, I don't think he actually said. That was an assumption on my part, wasn't it? That was terrible. Um, so yeah, good, good luck with it. That's a tough one. Um, let us know how it goes. Um, I think— I personally agree with Leanne. I think you should ditch this company, go organization, go and work for the other one, but just don't expect it all to be roses and whatever the phrase is. It might be, um, might have its own challenges.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And I think if you are really looking for something that is, is flexible, if these, you know, these shifts really have a significant impact on your, your performance and your wellbeing, it might be time to, to think more broadly about the organisations and industries you want to work in. And, and typically smaller businesses, as we've just heard from our previous, uh, question, typically are much more open-minded And flexible when it comes to these types of adjustments within the workplace. So, yeah, it might be time to leave public sector and maybe look at a small business. And I understand people typically want to stay in public sector because it's always felt very secure and job for life. I'm not sure that's the case anymore with everything we're seeing. So, I don't think that's as big a reason to stay anymore. So, yeah, maybe start to think about actually what type of industry, organisation, sector is going to be best for me.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. So that's all for now. You need to join us on Thursday. Well, first of all, join us next Tuesday for a new edition of This Week in Work. And then this Thursday, we've got a fascinating conversation with Dr. Cheryl Robinson, who is an expert in communication and also shares Leanne and I's hatred for corporate speak.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so make sure you circle back, loop in.
Al ElliottAnd also, we'll have a synergistic conversation around which will align Shareholders' expectations and provide value for the— see, it's making me sick in my mouth now.
Leanne ElliottWe'll whiteboard it.
Al ElliottWe'll whiteboard it. So join us on Thursday for another amazing episode. And, uh, if you are a superfan, if you do like to get involved, then check out the, the, the show notes. There's ways to get in touch. We have a private WhatsApp group that superfans are in, uh, which we're very, very grateful for. We give them— we ask them for advice around titles. Uh, they give us honest feedback on what they like and more importantly, what they don't like. If you don't want to do that, but there's something you don't like about what we're doing, just email us. We do really want to hear it, although we'll probably cry. Be a little bit— don't be harsh.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you want to join the conversation in between episodes, head over to LinkedIn. That's where I typically tend to, tend to hang out. Um, come say hi, come say connect. Um, I love it when people connect. I had one today, actually. Who was the lovely lady's name? Let me give her a shout out. Claire Kenny. Thank you for connecting. Thank you for listening to the show. It's always lovely to hear messages like that from our listeners.
Al ElliottBrilliant. So we'll see you Thursday.
Leanne ElliottBye.
Al ElliottBye-bye.
Leanne ElliottLove you. Bye.
Al ElliottSo what did the post say?
Leanne ElliottSo it basically said, have you— it's a good question. I was going to put that in, weren't you?
Al ElliottNot been wearing my glasses. That's a continuity Nightmare.
Leanne ElliottOh no, can you not just leave them off?
Al ElliottThen everyone's gonna see all the bags under my eyes.
Subscribe

Subscribe for free

SpotifyFollow on SpotifyApple PodcastsSubscribe on AppleAmazon MusicListen on AmazonYouTubeWatch on YouTubeAnother appAll platforms →