Episode 234 · 23 September 2025 · 47:42
Job hugging, Microsoft meltdowns and career regrets. PLUS! The truth about white noise and your brain - This Week in Work, 23rd September 2025
Job hugging, Microsoft meltdowns and career regrets. PLUS! The truth about white noise and your brain - This Week in Work, 23rd September 2025
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News Roundup — 'Job hugging': the new quiet quitting?
news roundup#job hugging#quiet quitting#news
News Roundup — Arthur Brooks on career risk and regret
news roundup#arthur brooks#career risk#regret
News Roundup — Is something brewing at Microsoft?
news roundup#microsoft#news#tech
Truth or Lie? — 'White noise helps you concentrate'
truth or lie#white noise#concentration#productivity
Workplace Surgery — unfulfilling work, great team
workplace surgery#unfulfilling work#team#career
Workplace Surgery — building genuine passion in your team
workplace surgery#passion#team#leadership
Workplace Surgery — the brilliant employee who's a terrible manager
workplace surgery#promotion#management#employee
Show notes
Job Hugging, Microsoft Meltdowns & Career Regrets — PLUS! The Truth About White Noise and Your Brain
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down "job hugging," the new workplace trend where fear keeps people stuck in roles they've outgrown, why a 7-year Microsoft veteran says the culture has changed for the worse, and what Harvard's Arthur Brooks says about the real cost of playing it safe in your career. Plus, we launch a brand-new segment: Truth or Lie? — starting with whether white noise actually helps you concentrate.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. "Job hugging" — the new workplace trend you might already be living The flip side of quiet quitting: people staying in jobs they don't love, not out of loyalty, but out of fear. With market uncertainty looming, younger workers in particular are choosing security over progression — clinging on "like a koala" to roles that no longer fit. Leanne breaks down the psychology of why fear-based retention is a ticking clock for both employees and employers. Source →
2. Arthur Brooks: the biggest career risk isn't failing — it's regret Harvard's Arthur Brooks (via Simon Sinek) argues that we systematically overestimate the pain of failure and underestimate the pain of regret. The research is clear: we regret the things we didn't do far more than the things we did. So why do we keep playing it safe? Al and Leanne unpack how to spot the difference between a smart risk and a reckless one — and why "down to the studs" might be the new "burn the boats." Source →
3. Microsoft culture crisis: "managers look like pinballs, completely powerless" A 7-year Microsoft employee's anonymous post has gone viral, describing a culture shift that's left long-timers "jumping ship" and managers looking "completely powerless." From post-vesting departures to whispers of intentional restructuring, Al and Leanne dig into how culture frays slowly — and why the warning signs are almost always visible long before the collapse. Source →
🧠 Truth or Lie? — "White Noise Helps You Concentrate"
Verdict: TRUE — but only for some people.
We're launching a new segment where we put workplace psychology claims under the microscope. First up: does white noise actually help you focus? The research says yes — for people with ADHD or attention difficulties, where the noise "sharpens" a weak attention signal. But for people who already concentrate well? Performance actually dropped.
Leanne's analogy: white noise is like glasses for the ear. If your vision is already fine, someone else's prescription is just going to blur things.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Unfulfilling work: "My team and manager are great, but the work itself leaves me cold. Do I stay or go?"
- Passion: "I'm a young entrepreneur — how do I build genuine passion in my team?"
- The Peter Principle: "I promoted a brilliant employee, but she's a terrible manager. What do I do?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottJob hugging. It's a workplace trend you probably haven't heard of but might already be living. When staying in an unfulfilling job feels safer than risking a move, are we looking at loyalty or fear? And what does it mean for leaders when retention isn't actually engagement?
Al ElliottAnd talking of risk, this week Harvard's Arthur Brooks says the biggest career risk isn't actually failing, it's living with regret because you never tried. So why does our fear of future regret keep us playing it safe? And how How can tiny acts of courage build the confidence to take bigger risks when it counts?
Leanne ElliottPlus, we have a brand new segment for you, Truth or Lie. We're putting workplace psychology claims under the microscope and trying to figure out what's right and what's just nonsense.
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture.
Leanne ElliottBrought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottSo let's get right into this after a quick word from our beautiful, very sexy sponsors.
Leanne ElliottVery sexy.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation, into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Okay, welcome back. It's Leanne's favourite time of the week. Just before you do— before we do, if you're noticing a little bit of a tonality or a nasality in our, in our voices, we went back to the UK, which was fabulous. We love the UK for a holiday. Went back, but like every time, we got a cold. So we're back on the airwaves with a little bit of a head cold, but worse things happen at sea. Anyway, Leanne, talking of worse things, how have I messed this up any more? Could I have messed it up any more?
Leanne ElliottProbably, but let's not dwell, shall we?
Al ElliottSo it's Leanne's favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottCue the jingle, Al.
Al ElliottThe jingle is being cued. Okay, Leanne, what have you seen?
Leanne ElliottI have a new word.
Al ElliottOkay, I love your new word. Yep. Okay, go.
Leanne ElliottMy new word is job hugging.
Al ElliottHob-jugging? Job hugging?
Leanne ElliottJob hugging.
Al ElliottIs this like tree hugging?
Leanne ElliottUh, kind of, I guess. Not really, but—
Al ElliottWell, thank you for being kind.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I guess clinging on to something for dear life.
Al ElliottLike a koala.
Leanne ElliottLike a koala indeed. Um, yeah, I think I alluded into the intro what this one is. I actually came across it in a LinkedIn post by occupational psychologist Nicole Williams, who is Fabulous.
Al ElliottShe really is.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so her post basically said, you remember quiet quitting, that whole wave of people when they were pulling back, doing the bare minimum, disengaging to protect themselves? Well, this is the flip side. So job hugging is what happens when people stay in jobs they don't love, not because they're engaged, but because the world outside feels too uncertain and moving is just a bit of a risk. Um, and I think if we're honest, that feels pretty real right now to everybody. Markets are a bit shaky, job ads are down, and there is this kind of constant low-level threat of just impending doom, isn't there? Residency Restructure residency redundancy. Restructure wars, yeah, is making people cling to what feels safe, what they know, even if it isn't fulfilling and even if it is a little bit draining. So Nicole went on to point out this might be especially true for younger workers. The generation we usually expect to be flexible and curious and mobile may now be choosing security over progression. And to be fair, I think you know we and Nicole made this point as well. We don't have any hard data on job hugging. There's no kind of research. Out there, but it does fit the pattern because whether it is quiet quitting or job hugging, what we're seeing is people who are just trying to feel safe in systems that don't give them much certainty. And then that brings us on to leadership, really, because if someone's staying in your business out of fear, that is not a win, my friend. That is not a win. It might look like retention, but underneath, they're just a bit stuck. And so Nicole gave some really good advice here. She suggested 3 things for leaders and HR teams To think about. One, are we actually rewarding loyalty and consistency or just taking it for granted? 2, are we acknowledging the pressure people are under emotionally and financially? And 3, are we making job security part of the culture, not just a vague line in the handbook? Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottYeah, well, I suppose for the younger generation, which I'm, I'm gonna say younger, I mean, anyone's younger than me, but I'm gonna say someone who's maybe—
Leanne ElliottYou're really old.
Al ElliottI am really old. But I would say, and someone who's maybe sort of like 21, 22, 23, Mm-hmm. They've been in the job market for about 6 years, 7 years. They've gone through— God, we've gone through COVID pandemic, work from home, you can't work from home, you should work from home. Jamie Dimon says you're an idiot from working from home. Uh, there's so much disruption. We feel like we're on the— I mean, there's wars. We feel like we're on the brink of something really big and nasty happening to the economy, to the world, really. So yeah, I suppose that might be, but you know what humans say? Tony Robbins said this, I think he said that, uh, the 2 things that people want is certainty and uncertainty in their life. They want certainty to know they're safe, but uncertainty so they've got challenges.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottAnd I think what we've got here is we've got uncertainty in terms of life, work, everything. And then there's no uncertainty in challenges because then you're like, well, I can't change jobs. I'm like, yeah, I think what I'm rambling, but basically what I'm saying is that it's, it's tough for everyone, but I do feel for those guys who've been in work for 6 years and it's been a bit of a shit 6 years.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think, you know, we've seen this before. Let's, let's, let's not forget the Great Resignation that came after the pandemic. You know, we saw lots of lovely high retention rates probably from 2020 to 2022. It's not real. It's like Nicole says, this isn't engagement. This is people just biding their time until the market picks up, and inevitably it will at some point, and we'll see this mass exodus of, of people again. And I think for any business owner listening, now is really the time that you can invest in your employee experience and in employee engagement and really make a difference and potentially stop people from this job hugging and actually just making sure that they are engaged. There was a study that I read fairly recently on this from some psychologists who looked at the Greek financial crisis, which was quite significant, wasn't it?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd they kind of found that ethical leadership is the key to helping people feel engaged rather than engage in job hugging. So being consistent, being fair, being transparent, I guess not taking advantage of people's insecurity right now by asking, asking them to do more above and beyond than they might have the energy or indeed the cares for. So yeah, if you are looking to avoid job hugging and foster more genuine employee engagement, then leadership is going to be huge right now. So yeah, there you go. Job hugging. It might sound harmless. It might sound like a really great thing for you because you've got a high retention rate right now. Oh, but man, do we not remember the Great Resignation, the chaos that that brought, the inflated salaries people were on. Let's not make the same mistakes again.
Al ElliottYeah. And just this links in nicely to Thursday's episode because the data shows that people are staying in jobs and therefore you might go retention is superb. But actually, the actuality is they're hugging their job. And so the data is slightly flawed. And that's a bit of a foreshadowing for this Thursday.
Leanne ElliottCoincidentally. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottWell, talking of coincidences, I saw something quite similar. It's kind of similar to what you were saying. There's a guy called Simon Sinek. I'm sure you've come across him. I think he said The Pursuit of Why was one of his biggest books, certainly one of his first books. Does that sound right? Pursuit of Why?
Leanne ElliottYou can't go onto YouTube without tripping over Simon Sinek.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, he's everywhere. He's also got a podcast called A Bit of Optimism, and I was listening to it the other week and, well, actually last week. Most— this is the key thing that came out of this episode with a guy called Arthur. Most of us think that the biggest risk at work is failing. But this Arthur Brooks, he's a happiness expert. I want to be a happiness expert. He's a happiness expert and Harvard University professor. And he says it's actually the opposite because the biggest risk is living with regret because you never tried. Now, this— We all know this, the, you know, the 7 regrets of the dying and all that very famous article, maybe about 15, 20 years ago. But this is specifically around work. When we're looking at risk, he calls it mental time travel. So he says this is how you sort of imagine yourself in the future and you're cringing at a decision you made today. So this fear of regret makes us play it safe. So we maybe might not speak up in a meeting or might not pitch a new idea, or we don't go for the promotion that we think we're gonna get because our mental time travel is like, yeah, but what happens if you don't get it? You'll be sadder by not getting it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThan than if you hadn't even applied, and ironically, this is what leads up to the real regret. Real regret, sorry. A little later on, the research shows that regret avoidance is one of the strongest drivers in human behavior, but it pushes us towards caution and not growth. Now, this is from the article that I read around this. By the way, the book the book is called *The Happiness Files* by Arthur Brooks. So looks really good. I think you should definitely go and buy it. Now, I'm not saying necessarily that, and neither is Arthur, that you should blow up your career or quit or whatever. Although interestingly. Arthur does. He says he takes his life back down to the, to the, I think he says to the studs, which is an American way of saying you basically just ripped everything out and starts again every 10 years. But he says, I know, I'm not sure I want to do it. And I think that maybe that's something which if you are a Harvard professor and then you can do that. But if you know, if you just made sales director and then you go, right, I'm going to go back to the sales floor and I'm going to, you know, make cold calls, that might not be exactly what you want to do. So the solution is instead, he says, to take micro-risks. So go to work, take tiny sort of like low stakes, I suppose, acts of courage. So go and say hello to someone new, share an idea you've had with your boss that's not fully formed, ask for some feedback you'd usually dodge. Because it might sound silly, but just doing these little things sort of flexes that risk muscle and allows you to take, you know, mini risks that if they don't pan out, Might be at worst slightly embarrassing, but are definitely not gonna blow things up. So you see how it kind of fits in with what you were saying there? What are your thoughts so far, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, it makes sense. I think particularly as we get older, we get much more risk-averse. So if you are, yeah, probably 40 plus in that kind of second half of your career, then, then yes, we might be reluctant to take those risks and it actually might be a good time to do it because it's exploring those new opportunities that, that really give us so much fulfilment. And meaning. Um, the psychology of regret is really interesting. Um, one thing that I do remember off the top of my head is that we certainly— it's true, you know that saying, we don't regret the things— regret the things you didn't do.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottNot the things you did do.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the psychology kind of backs that up because it shows that we experience more regret, um, when we think about scenarios that we don't know how it ended or what the outcome would have been like, because then we imagine this whole wonderful existence that could have been, the one that got away, the job that we should have taken, that holiday. So yeah, we regret them because we're really good at making, making up something fabulous. Living something fabulous takes a bit more effort, doesn't it? So, so yeah, I like that. Approved.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. I think what is interesting is that this Arthur Brooks kind of frames it as like a startup mentality. So those people who start companies, there are inherent risks in companies, huge risks Amazing companies. But the difference is that they're not, they don't say, I'm not gonna start because I might fail. They're gonna, they start because knowing that there's a risk of failure, but also the success is just, the prize is worth that failure. Um, the other thing he pointed out, which is really interesting, lemme just read from it. He says, he called these micronutrients of happiness, and there's 3: enjoyment from doing something engaging, satisfaction from progress, and meaning from building something that matters. That all fits in nicely with entrepreneurs, with founders.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottThat's exactly what they're doing because they're, they're charting their own course. They're sailing their own ship. I'm not sure there's any more metaphors.
Leanne ElliottStudying their own boots.
Al ElliottStudying their— studying, is that a word? Is that a phrase?
Leanne ElliottDon't— did he say something about studying down to the studs?
Al ElliottDown to the studs. I think he meant, well, I'm thinking it was more like down to the studs of a house, but maybe, maybe the studs of his boots, but I don't know. So basically Arthur's lesson is very simple. At work and in life, the danger isn't failing, it's getting to the end and wish you'd tried. Kind of similar to what you were saying there, but also the opposite, because if someone is job hugging, And being very unhappy for it.
Leanne ElliottThat's the point, isn't it?
Al ElliottWell, there we go. There we go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So money, uh, so money doesn't bring you happiness, but apparently those 3 things— doing something engaging, satisfaction from progress, and, uh, let me see, what else do my notes say— building something that matters. That's what you want to be doing. If you're interested a bit more, then go and check out Simon Sinek's podcast, A Bit of Optimism, and go and find out Arthur Brooks' thoughts on happiness. And his book is called The Happiness Files. Leanne, any thoughts before we move on to your article?
Leanne ElliottI should like to read that book and speak to Arthur.
Al ElliottThere we go, Arthur, if you're listening.
Leanne ElliottLove to have you on the show.
Al ElliottOpen invitation. What else you see, my love?
Leanne ElliottOh, is there something big brewing at Microsoft? There's something going on there. Do you know? We spoke to Bill recently.
Al ElliottDo you know what? He's not answered my calls for a few days. I think he might be at his lodge, at his cabin.
Leanne ElliottOh, signal's rough there. Wouldn't worry. Yeah, could you imagine? So, right, there's a story that is kind of doing the rounds on socials, and a couple of news outlets started to pick it up as well, from Microsoft. So it comes from an original post from an employee who's been with the company for 7 years, and the post opened with the words, it's scaring me.
Al ElliottOoh.
Leanne ElliottSo what they said is there's basically 2 senior engineers on a big project that have suddenly left. Another colleague of theirs quit, is quietly asking for referrals for other jobs. Their own manager is booking a string of personal meetings back to back. So all of it together is feeding this sense that something big is happening under the surface. Now, they did go on to say, so some commentary on this, it could just be the usual what's called post-vesting season. I'd not heard of this before, have you?
Al ElliottI know what vesting is, but I don't know what post-vesting— well, I'm guessing that post-vesting comes after vesting, but go on.
Leanne ElliottWhat's vesting?
Al ElliottVesting, I think, is when you get your shares, you get your shares paid out.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know that. There you go. So yeah, it's a point in the year when people who've earned their stock awards cash out and move on. But what this employee says is that doesn't feel like the normal shuffle. It feels like a bit more than that. And they actually said, this feels like something's brewing. People are jumping ship. Now, there's some comments underneath this as well, Al, which really just adds so much more richness So one person said the culture here, at least in my team, has dramatically shifted. Managers look like pinballs, completely powerless. Another said they no longer feel a sense of purpose. So what to your point with Arthur was talking about, they're just reacting to whatever the topic of the day is. And despite making good money, they've talked about wanting to do work that has more of an impact on the world around them rather than just helping another multi-trillion-dollar company squeeze out another percent of growth. At the cost of their sanity.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottYeah, others have gone further in the comments suggesting that Microsoft is actually intentionally pushing out older or longer-tenured employees, so people over 55 or with 10 years of service, by using the return-to-office rules, um, or trumped-up performance issues, or even offering packages for them to leave. Um, the accusation is that the company prefers a workforce made up of certain demographics Um, in terms of age, in terms of visa status as well, because they can pay them less and control them more tightly. Um, so there you go. Well, that seems to be something brewing at Microsoft. Have you heard anything on the grapevine?
Al ElliottI haven't. Now, was this from a particular team, like, you know, like LinkedIn or Skype or GitHub?
Leanne ElliottThey say it's anonymous employees.
Al ElliottInteresting. Also, the people who put those comments underneath, were they anonymous or were they— was it on LinkedIn?
Leanne ElliottNo. Well, they wouldn't have been anonymous, would they?
Al ElliottNo, I don't think that's very brave to be able to do that. But I don't know. I mean, Microsoft's a very, very strange one because if you look at their business model, they've got so many different things going on. None of them seem to do particularly well. I mean, who woke up recently and went, I can't wait to go back to work and get on the Microsoft Teams call? That software is horrendous. Skype, they just shut it down.
Leanne ElliottOh, I'm fuming about that. The number.
Al ElliottYeah, they've shut down Skype.
Leanne ElliottYeah, well, it's the only decent thing they did.
Al ElliottYeah, exactly. And also, how the hell did they mess up Skype over the, uh, over the pandemic?
Leanne ElliottI know when they had— yeah, I know.
Al ElliottWhat, what, what were they doing? Um, nothing. I mean, I'm sorry, Microsoft, but nothing you do seems to be exceptional. And the only exceptional stuff you do is when you're doing joint venture with someone else like the— are they part of OpenAI or is it Anthropic? I can't remember. I think they're funding one of them. Maybe it's OpenAI. I can't remember.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBut it just, nothing seems like Microsoft Word. It's just okay, innit? You know, Microsoft Excel is just okay.
Leanne ElliottDo you know what? I've actually switched to Google in the last 6 months.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYou're a proper Office girl, weren't you?
Leanne ElliottProper Office. I've had my 365 subscription for a long time, cancelled it, not really missed it.
Al ElliottNo, no, no. And there's so much more with this. I just, I don't know that there's anything like nefarious going on or we were about to see Microsoft going bust or anything silly like that. Um, but it just, it just feels in a, in a, in, in a world where, in a world where—
Leanne ElliottThat sounds good with your cold.
Al ElliottDid it?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIn a world where Bill can do anything, why does he do everything? A bit shit. Uh, yeah, but in a world where everyone's like building amazing things and there's so amazing stuff coming out, Microsoft's just like, meh, a bit white and a bit boring. White rice, aren't they?
Leanne ElliottYeah, that's my thoughts. Yeah, fair. I mean, I have seen something around kind of Bill Gates talking about the 3-day work week could be achievable given AI, so it might be that they're about to go AI first or, or make, yeah, whole departments AI-led. Um, but who knows? This is just social media chatter, Al. It's not been verified by Microsoft. Um, but I do think a mood is revealing itself. In terms of sentiment around these big, these big companies, how they treat their people, how they operate in the world, and the impact that they have. Of course, culture doesn't collapse overnight, but to me, I just wonder whether there's just some signs that people are starting to lose faith in big tech.
Al ElliottYeah, could be, could be. Only time will tell, I suppose. Leanne, anything else to add, or should we go to a break?
Leanne ElliottNo, that concludes the news roundup.
Al ElliottBeautiful, beautiful. Thank you so much. Right, if you've got, by the way, if you've got a news article you'd like Leanne and I to It's a good job, isn't it? Yeah, butcher in my case. Then, then the links from the show notes, and it could be something about you as well if it's interesting. And if you're from Microsoft, get in touch. Right, well, we'll see you after a very short break where we have the world-famous weekly workplace surgery, and we don't have the hot take which we've had for about the last 18 months. So find out why in just a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast platform? Podcast Network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. See you next week.
Al ElliottSeamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. Okay, we've started something new this week. It's called Truth or Lie.
Leanne ElliottBang on brand.
Al ElliottBang on brand. Now here's why we think this is a good segment. Psychology has become this goldmine for quick claims, and you've seen it on TikTok, LinkedIn, company training days, all about buy a psychologist and immediately has this credibility. They sound smart, you know, they feel like they're definitely true, and before you know it, Then all these little snippets that are by a psychologist are basically law and they shape like the way we work or the way we learn. The trouble is a lot of them don't actually hold up to scrutiny, and often it's not that they're totally made up, it's that someone takes a little sliver of psychology, oversimplifies it, or just takes an idea and pushes it a little bit too far. Leanne, you are a psychologist. You don't do that, do you?
Leanne ElliottUh, well, I don't, but I think, I think we're all guilty sometimes of oversimplifying it or just kind of clinging on to something that seems to make sense to us. And there's some really famous ones that some of you'll be aware of, some that you might not. Thinking styles, you know, auditory, visual, kinesthetic. There's not really much positive data behind that.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottYeah, there's lots of years and years of studies that have shown that, that kind of that supposed learning style and matching that to a person doesn't actually make a difference in how well people learn. It's still a preference and it might help our engagement or concentration, But it doesn't actually have a significant impact.
Al ElliottInteresting. I always thought I was an auditory. I always thought I learned better if I listened, but rather than—
Leanne ElliottMe too, me too. But that's the thing, it might be more of a preference than actually a thing. And then of course there's Myers-Briggs. We don't need to talk about that other than it's complete nonsense, but there's still entire careers and organisations being shaped by that for goodness knows why. So yeah, so it felt that maybe this was our opportunity, Al, to put some To put some things to rights.
Al ElliottYeah. And that's the real danger is that someone hears something on a course by some person at the front of the room saying, oh, well, this is the different auditory, this is the visual learning styles. And then they go, well, that must be law. So then they bring it into work and then they put it into the internal training. And then it just becomes, like we said before, law in the work. It even just like, it can affect like the apps and the tools you're gonna buy for your team. So this segment, which we're calling Truth or Lie, is about putting those claims Under the microscope and asking, does the evidence actually back them up? So here is the first one, and I'm really genuinely interested in this. Just so you know, usually what happens— well, usually what happens, we've only done this once— what we decided on this one was that I was going to decide. Leanne gave me a selection of, of, of ideas, and I chose one, and I asked the question, but I don't know what you're about to say.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottSo I'm gonna learn alongside you. So truth or lie, Leanne, playing white noise helps you concentrate.
Leanne ElliottExcellent question, Al. Excellent question. Should we make sure everyone understands what white noise is first of all?
Al ElliottYes, I don't think they know.
Leanne ElliottThere's lots of different noises. White noise, pink noise, brown noise.
Al ElliottBrown noise.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So white noise is a sound spread evenly across all the frequencies that humans can hear.
Al ElliottDoes it sound a bit like—
Leanne ElliottYeah. Like static.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottPink noise is similar, but heavier on the lower frequencies. So maybe more like exactly water running, for example, might be more like pink. Noise, and both are indeed marketed as focus boosters. And it is easy to see why people believe it. Um, you see it, don't you, on YouTube? They've got tens of millions of views on videos with white noise. Spotify has whole pink noise playlists. We see it in terms of putting babies to sleep. TikTok swearing by it. Um, it's a, it's a nice story, isn't it, that a hum is just gonna magically make our, our brain perform better. But what does the research actually show? Well, 2024, a systemic review pulled together 13 different studies. We like these types of studies. Al, why do we like these types of studies?
Al ElliottBecause they're longitudinal?
Leanne ElliottNo, because it brings in more data from lots of different studies. So you have a bigger sample.
Al ElliottOh, I see. Bigger sample.
Leanne ElliottYes. Bigger sample. So 13 studies of children and young adults with ADHD. So what they found is that in that group, those people who had ADHD, white or pink noise did help. So in terms of performance on attention and memory tasks, that improved, not dramatically, but reliably in a statistically significant way, which basically means more than chance.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottOkay. For people who didn't have ADHD though, it had the opposite effect. So performance actually dropped.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottWhen listening to white noise.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottHuh.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo that's, yeah. And what's interesting as well is this isn't isolated. Obviously, this was from across 13 studies, but there's been another study that wasn't included in this that split schoolchildren into 3 groups: super attentive, like very focused; average; subattentive, might have some trouble concentrating. What they found is that with white noise, the subattentive kids improved in terms of their performance, but the super attentive ones actually got worse.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottSo why?
Al ElliottSo, so why? Do you know why?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I do. So I've tried, I've tried to do an analogy, Al, and you know what I'm like, sometimes these hit and sometimes these miss. So let's see. So think of it like a pair of glasses, right? If your eyesight is blurry, if you need some little help, if you're one of those sub, subattentive people, you need some help. So you're gonna put on your glasses and it's gonna sharpen the image.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottYeah. If your vision is already fine, but you put on somebody else's prescription of glasses, it's just gonna make things worse.
Al ElliottOh yeah, yeah, it does.
Leanne ElliottYeah. I don't need things to be sharpened. Yeah.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottLike one doesn't need to.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYou know? So it's in the same way. So noise can sharpen attention when it's weak, but it can blur things if your focus is already strong.
Al ElliottI love it. So white noise is glasses for the ear.
Leanne ElliottIndeed.
Al ElliottI like it. I like it. I, ooh, sorry, there's a fly in the studio. I just went to try and smack it and I smacked my microphone. I like white noise and I, do you know what? I used to have an app that would play the sounds of a coffee shop.
Leanne ElliottOh, my little extrovert.
Al ElliottIs that me? Was it? So that was more extrovert that I wanted to be around people than it was to—
Leanne ElliottMore than likely. Yeah. More than likely. 'Cause actually, it's, I don't know if you've read this, Al, but that feeds in perfectly to my next research finding is that there's another layer to it that in workplaces or indeed in coffee shops, If you want to kind of mask distractions, then you can play white noise, and actually across groups that can improve concentration.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottSo, yeah, so I think there's various different reasons as to why you like to be in a coffee shop, but I'd imagine it's your extraversion wanting, needing the energy of people to feel energised to do your work. But yeah, and it can make, if you're in a busy workplace, it can make a space feel calmer and easier to work in. But that is very different from kind of a claim of supercharging attention. It's not so much that bold. So I guess the verdict is typically it depends. White pink noise can help people with ADHD or those in noisy environments concentrate more. But if you're already focused in a quiet room, then it's just likely to get in the way.
Al ElliottGot it. So what we're saying here is that if you are good at concentrating, it's not gonna help make a blind bit of difference. In fact, it might make work, make you worse. If you are bad at concentrating like me, then it will help. Does it say which in particular? Like pink, white, brown? Is there a particular?
Leanne ElliottNo, I couldn't come across any research that made specific claims as to which one is better. So no, but I think the general, a lot of the research that I read seemed to be on pink noise, which is like a slightly deeper. So maybe that's just less annoying if it's a bit deeper. Dunno. Didn't look at that, but yeah. Noise.
Al ElliottNoise.
Leanne ElliottI think the point is, if you're having trouble concentrating, then try it. It might help. If you're not having any problems concentrating, then, well, you won't be looking for a solution, will you? So you don't, you don't, it's not going to supercharge you. It's not going to make you like super focused.
Al ElliottA few people I follow on Twitter, they, they quite often, if they, what do the kids call it? Locking in. If they lock in on a project, they'll often just choose one track. From an album and just play it over and over and over again for 2 days.
Leanne ElliottOh, that sounds painful.
Al ElliottYeah, it sounds like a torture chamber, doesn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah. Depends which, depends which album it is, I suppose. If it's something from Rumours, then perhaps that might be quite pleasant, but then you'd end up hating it. But yeah, anyway, anyway, right, there we go. If you have a truth or lie that you'd like Leanne to investigate, then we've got it, Leanne's Investigation. I like that. Then, um, then get in touch with us. You know how to, just check out the show notes. It is now time for our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. We have 3 this week, as is our— well, basically, as we always have. We always have 3. I can't find them now. Yes, I can. I found them. Okay. So question number 1, great boss, great team, but the work is unfulfilling. This is so— I didn't read the notes, to be honest, the production notes. And so I just banged in like my notes from my bit, but I've realised this is actually Scratchy on point. So, hi, Leanne. I've been in my current role for a year. The team is friendly, my manager is supportive, and there's nothing toxic about the environment, but the work just doesn't feel meaningful. It's hard to get projects over the line. There's too much red tape, too many stakeholders, constant pushback. I've spent a decade in Big Pharma, so I'm used to some bureaucracy, but this feels like a slog and I'm starting to feel stuck. What would you do when the people are great, but the role itself just isn't giving you anything back?
Leanne ElliottLee. In this situation, it's important to know that this is not a long-term solution for you, but it is a good short-term solution while you're figuring out what is gonna be meaningful and fulfilling work to you, because you're not in an environment that is toxic. You're not in an environment that is negatively impacting your human experience. You're just in an environment where you're not gaining any energy from it. So over time, that will lead to what is called moral burnout, which is when our values and our beliefs and our ambitions are misaligned with the work that we're in. And over time, that will cause the same symptoms.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAs burnout, detachment from work, cynicism, exhaustion. Now is a really good time to understand what is meaningful to you. You said you've been in Big Pharma for a decade. You're used to the bureaucracy, but this also sounds like a bit, a bit more difficult in this organisation. Now is a time to reflect on what meaningful work means to you.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd a really big, um, aspect of that is gonna be understanding what your values are, what you stand by. There's a really good, in fact, I can leave a link in the show notes, like a generic type of like values list that basically has a value and defines it. And there's about 40 of them. You probably only need 3 core values that you wanna live by. And it's just going through them and identifying the things that feel important to you. So, it could be, for example, around knowledge sharing, around learning. It could be around relationships, communication. It could be about feeling that you're having a positive impact on the world in some kind of charitable way or It could be the environment. There's lots of different ones that will help you understand what's important to you. And then you can think about, well, what type of work am I going to do that's going to align with that? That work doesn't have to necessarily be constrained within your financially paid work. It could be voluntary work. It could be things in your community. It could be things that you do with your kids or your dog or your partner. It could be within hobbies. But at some point, you're going to have to address this imbalance. Otherwise, it is going to start to have A negative impact. There's loads of self-coaching things you can do— the Wheel of Life, the VITALS exercise that we've talked about a lot, which is values, interests, temperament. Again, I can leave links to these in the show notes, or get in touch and I can send them, a little booklet to you. But I think at this point, you're really understanding what meaningful work will mean, and I wouldn't think about looking for another job until you've taken That time, if you can afford it, engage a coach to help you with that reflection. It really does make a difference. Go back a few episodes to our, our coaching simulation, wasn't it? Our live coaching session that we did. There's some exercises in there that you'll be able to pick up on. But yeah, the good news is you're in an organisation that isn't toxic. It isn't going to have a detrimental impact on your mental health or your wellbeing in the short term. So, use this time whilst you have a great team, you have a support manager, figure out the work that you do want to do.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, and then move when you're ready.
Al ElliottSo really good advice. And I think that if you'd asked me to answer this, I'd be like, oh yeah, quit your job, go and do something, you know, travel the world. But obviously that seems a bit silly. Um, and Leanne's got a really, really sort of practical way of looking at things. You said it quite quickly, and I'd want to just make sure no one's glossed over this idea of finding your, your, your purpose outside of work. And there are lots of people who do jobs that they don't really enjoy, but they have hobbies, or they run a group offline, or, or even online, uh, they run, you know, they do something volunteering. Um, I remember when we were, when we, we first met through Samaritans, both volunteering. And I know for me that was like, felt worthwhile, whereas the bit I was doing at the time didn't feel that worthwhile to me. So yeah, um, not as, it's a sticky plaster, but, um, I hope you sort it out. And, uh, if you do move on, let us know, come back and, and follow up on us because it'd be cool to hear that. Okay, so question number 2, how do I get my team to care as much as I do? Okay, now we get some. So, I'm a younger entrepreneur and I've been reflecting on why our team isn't quite hitting the mark. The more I think about it, the clearer it becomes. They just don't seem to care about the work the same way I do. I'm passionate about my business, short-term goals, long-term vision, all of it. But the team doesn't seem to feel the same connection or energy. I know I can't force passion. But I also don't want to run a business where I'm the only one driving things forward. How do you actually build that sense of ownership and motivation in teams, especially when you're still finding your feet as a leader? I think that last one might come into, uh, might come into play in your answer there, Leigh. What would you say?
Leanne ElliottI mean, it's a big ask for, to expect any employee to care about your business as much as you do. That's not impossible, but it's a big ask and you need to be very intentional about how you build your environment and your culture to achieve that. In fact, That's one of the taglines on our ObLong website, isn't it? Build teams that love your business as much as you do.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSo, it is possible, but it takes a lot of hard work, a lot of intention, a lot of planning, a lot of skills as a leader. There's only 7 things you can do to build an amazing workplace culture, and this question I think relies on 3 of them very heavily. First of all is reason. Why are you asking your people to get out of bed in the morning? How are they contributing to something positive? Like we just had from our listener the question before, they're not finding that. that work fulfilling? Well, what, what are the values that the business stands for? What is it trying to achieve with its customers? Or what change is it trying to shape in the world? Or problems it's trying to solve? Um, and how are you communicating that to your team in a way that is inspiring, that is aspirational, that people connect with in a way that aligns with their values? So, it could be you're not being very clear on the values of the business. You're not being very clear on what the, the long-term mission is of the business. It might be that there's some work around that you need to have to communicate that to your team, and also bring your team into that in terms of how they want to shape it. Ownership comes from having ownership over the job as well. It's not just throwing equity at them and hoping for the best. They need to feel ownership over the mission. So, that is going to require some consultation, some discussion, as, yeah, potentially. With that, the second thing you can do is roll. So, now that you have a really good reason, The people in your organisation need to understand how their individual role contributes to that mission delivery. It's the typical, you know, the JFK janitor story. If you don't know it, very quickly, JFK, the president, visits NASA, asks a janitor what he does there, and the janitor replies, I'm helping to put a man on the moon, sir. Doesn't have a direct impact actually building the rocket, but feels like he's part of an organisation doing something incredible. That's what you need people to understand is how their individual role, whether it be in sales, in marketing, in operations, in HR, contributes to that mission delivery, and also give them, again, ownership and autonomy over the role that they do, how and where they work, what autonomy they have within that in terms of control over those things, and ideally something that's called job crafting. So, how they can craft a role for themselves within the organisation that still achieves the goals that you need to, but meets their own ambitions and strengths and development opportunities. Yeah. And then finally, recognition. Make sure you're paying your people fairly. Make sure you've got a decent benefits package. Make sure that the— there is transparency in the organisation about how decisions are made. That's called organisational justice. Make sure people are taking all their holidays, making sure people are thanked for, for doing something awesome, celebrated for delivering these goals, um, for doing something that contributes this long-term vision. It all needs to tie Together, like a flowing circle or cycle of intention. It's that reason, role, recognition that then feeds back into the reason, role, recognition and continues to get stronger and stronger. So, they're the 3 things to focus on. I've probably massively oversimplified it to the point where you're like, well, that sounds pretty easy. And it is really, it just requires some thought behind what it is that you're trying to do. So, that is my recommendation. Think about your reason. Make that really clear how you're communicating that to your people. Make sure they understand how their individual roles contribute and make sure they're getting the recognition they deserve to deliver work that's ultimately making your dreams come true.
Al ElliottI'm glad you said that last thing, making your dreams come true, because having done a few startups myself, um, nobody's gonna care as much as you because these are your dreams. These aren't your employees' dreams. There might be one or two people who Share your dream. But let's be honest, I've done a few startups and most of the people, they come in because they enjoy living, working there. They enjoy the money. Uh, it's a sense of excitement, but they don't share the same purpose as you, and nor probably should they. So yes, it'll be— follow Leanne's advice. Yes, use the reason, the, the recognition, and the role to get everything to get you as close as you possibly can, but don't expect people to, to care as much as you do because I don't think, I'm not sure they, you know, I'm not sure that'll happen.
Leanne ElliottNo. And, and there's a danger as well that, and you see this with small businesses, don't you? Particularly they have a, an employee that ends up becoming their number 2 because they do care as much about the mission, but they might sometimes lack the capability you need at different stages of the business. So you kind of wanna be careful with that as well. You wanna employ the people that are gonna drive the, the vision and mission of the organisation forward. Whether they care as much about you do doesn't really matter as long as they care enough, it resonates enough with them, and they're being treated well. They're going to further, further, you know, the mission of the organisation.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Okay, so on to question number 3. I promoted a brilliant employee, but she's a terrible manager. Can I keep her? 9 months ago, I promoted one of our strongest performers into a management role. She's hardworking, focused, and excellent at what she does or did. The problem is she's not a natural manager. She's introverted, she struggles to lead, and despite training and support, She doesn't think about the wider team. The role came with a 25% pay rise, and understandably, she's not open to stepping back down. I bet she's not. But I just can't justify— but I can't justify the salary if I'm still the one managing everyone. At least at the same time, I really don't want to lose her from the business. Is there any way to keep a great employee who's been promoted beyond their strengths without making the situation worse for everyone? Lee, that's a tough one.
Leanne ElliottI might need to engage in some tough love here, Al.
Al ElliottOkay, go.
Leanne ElliottTo listener. Said with respect, this is tough love. You've made a number of mistakes here that you are now paying for. You promoted a brilliant employee, one of your strongest performers. She wasn't a strongest performance performer in a management role because you said that you're the only person managing everyone if she steps down. This is a fundamental error that we promote high-performing individual contributors, assuming that they'll be able to manage the people that currently do their role that they're in because they're. good at that job. It doesn't work like that. Management has fundamentally a different skill set. So, that's your first mistake.
Al ElliottTo quote someone we used to know, who was a bit annoying.
Leanne ElliottThe second thing is, well, you're making some really sweeping assumptions here that are actually nonsense. She's not a natural manager. Few people are. I think if you really want to push the research, you might find 20% of people that might just have the natural attributes. One needs to be a good manager, but even then they need to understand what those attributes are, how to apply them, and have the self-awareness of how to apply them in various management situations. The majority of people can be coached and trained into being a phenomenal manager. And yes, there are a percentage of people who will never be a great manager. It is possible that this person falls into that category, but that's a minority of people. So let's give her the benefit of the doubt. She's introverted. What's that got to do with the price of fish?
Al ElliottYeah, we've talked about this before, but sorry, you caught me off guard with that. I like that. I like that. Yes, we've talked about that before, haven't we?
Leanne ElliottThere is no correlation between introversion, extroversion, and management effectiveness at all. Let it go. The reason that we assume extroverts are better managers is because there are more of them and they're much more vocal about how amazing they are as managers. Um, the only, the only slight nuance in that is that introverts can be better at managing, be more effective at managing people who are much more autonomous in their roles and want to be supported and coached but not handheld through the process. Extroverts can be more effective as managers in situations where people need a lot more handholding, a lot more day-to-day. This might be the case that you have a team that is needing much more day-to-day handholding rather than a team that is independent. You've got an interdependent team. That could be one of the issues that you've got. This person was also promoted internally. That comes with its own challenges in terms of gaining that respect and that buy-in from the team, how that was managed. You say that you're giving them training and support. Given the fundamental misunderstandings of what management is in your question alone, I would question the quality and effectiveness of that training and support. That might need looking at, maybe getting somebody external. who knows about management to train and coach up that manager before you, um, you demote her. As somebody who has been demoted in my career, if you don't know, listen, listen back. Talked about a few times, but I think over the summer was our biggest career disasters or mistakes.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, it is really hard. I was retained because I was given, I was given better training and support to do the job that I was, um, promoted to do that I hadn't been given Previously, and it all worked out swimmingly, and I stayed with the organisation for a long time and continued to move up. So, I would say if you don't want to give up on this person just yet, engage an external management trainer coach who can work with this person and you as a manager to make sure that you're supporting that person correctly. And if you really think it is the end of the line, you're just going to have to.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottaccept, if you can't keep this pay rise, and even if you could, a demotion is brutal to deal with. Even if you're supported in the best possible way through it, they will probably want to leave your business. So, I think the only way to keep this employee is going to be making this, making this role work.
Al ElliottYeah, makes perfect sense. And like Leanne said, it's so, if you don't have a background in HR or workplace or anything that Leanne knows a lot about, Your temptation is to go and find the best performer and go, well, that obviously that they should be the manager. And in most cases, that's a double, like double kick in the— I can't say that word, but double kick in the head because, because one, you promote them and then they're a bad manager, and two, you lose the performance you get from that person. So yeah, it does sound like a tough, a tough situation. Jeff Bezos talks from Amazon. He talks about a two-way door. And he says he, he, he'll implement an idea if he can roll it back. This is something you couldn't roll back. If anyone's listening and thinking about doing this, then perhaps try, do a trial of a managership. Could you, could you trial a manager job, or is that just as bad?
Leanne ElliottI mean, you could. I think fundamentally you need somebody in your business who is gonna help you identify the people that have management potential, can be trained to be great managers, and having this selection process built in rather than you just going, that one. And hoping it's all gonna work out for the best. And the thing is, as well, you need this because if you don't engage in this type of external consultancy to educate you on how to do this, to design a process of how you can identify talent within your business moving forward, this problem is gonna continue to happen. And it is one of the most disruptive things you can do in your business is to promote somebody into a role that they're not capable of doing and just have somebody who is an ineffective manager. It's going to impact performance, morale, retention, everything in ways that you really don't, really don't want it to. So, now is the time to educate yourself and invest in this consultancy to understand what great management looks like in your organisation, how to identify it, how to nurture it, how to develop it. And sadly, this person is paying the price for your incompetence.
Al ElliottSo, a bit of a downer to end on this one, I think. It was just—
Leanne ElliottIt's a bit tough love. It was a bit of tough love, but there's things you can do. But the question, the question in terms of, of kind of, is there anything I can do without making this situation worse for everyone? The thing you can do is not engage some external consultancy to, to educate yourself on, on what management is, because it's gonna make it worse because you're gonna do it again and again and again and again. So, in terms of, yeah, this, this person, it's unfortunate. Maybe there's a way to pull it back through the ways that I said. Um, but yeah, the only thing you can do to make it worse is not learn from this. Yeah.
Al ElliottOkay, so is that tough love? If you want a little bit of tough love from Leanne, you have a question, a problem, something about your workplace that you want some advice on, then the links are in the show notes of how to get in touch. Send it over. We would love to feature your question. Anonymously is the default, but we're very happy to shout you out if you want to be. And if you're from Microsoft and you've got a question about work, then yeah, we'd love to hear about that.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you have a psychology thought Think, what am I trying to say? Theory that you think is true for our Truth and Lies segments, something you've heard and you go, is that true? Right, send it in. Yeah, we'll do some research.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. So I think that's all for now. Leanne, is there anything else to add?
Leanne ElliottUh, no. Join us again on Thursday. We'll be back with another expert guest interview. We've got some corkers coming up for you on the run-up to Christmas, some really, really cool people coming on the show. We're back next Tuesday with This Week in Work. If you want to connect, go over to LinkedIn. That's where I tend to hang out. Al sulks there from time to time. Sulks and skulks. Yeah, about it really. Subscribe, love you, review, all that good stuff.
Al ElliottAll right, we'll speak to you next week and hopefully we'll have fixed our colds by then. We're going to have lots of lemon juice and whiskey and all the stuff that you're supposed to have for colds. Maybe listeners prefer our Maybe if I voiced it a bit more quickly.
Leanne ElliottMaybe.
Al ElliottMaybe. Okay. All right. We'll see you next week. Bye-bye.