Episode 254 · 2 December 2025 · 52:24
AI-xiety, dreamers vs doers, and toxic COVID culture. PLUS! Can you really fake it till you make it?
AI-xiety, dreamers vs doers, and toxic COVID culture. PLUS! Can you really fake it till you make it?
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Story 1: The toxic COVID culture inquiry report
news roundup#covid-19#toxic-culture#inquiry-report
Story 2: The rise of AI-xiety
news roundup#ai#anxiety#technology-trends
Story 3: Dreamers vs doers
news roundup#career-change#dreamers#doers
Truth or Lie: Can you fake it till you make it?
truth or lie#fake-it-till-you-make-it#confidence#career-advice
Workplace Surgery: Hiring people who think like you vs challenge you
workplace surgery#hiring#team-dynamics#diversity-of-thought
Workplace Surgery: How honest should I be about my mental health?
workplace surgery#mental-health#honesty#workplace-communication
Workplace Surgery: Have you ever regretted not taking a risk?
workplace surgery#risk-taking#regret#career-decisions
Show notes
AI-xiety, Dreamers vs Doers & Toxic COVID Culture — PLUS: Can You Really Fake It Till You Make It?
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) unpack the brutal COVID inquiry findings on Downing Street's toxic culture, why 77% of employees say AI has added to their workload, and the new research on why so many career dreamers never become doers. Plus, in Truth or Lie: is "fake it till you make it" backed by science or just a recipe for burnout?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. The COVID inquiry report is out — and it's brutal The official inquiry found that the "toxic and chaotic" workplace culture inside Downing Street directly slowed the UK's pandemic response. Leanne and Al break down what the report says about leadership, culture, and decision-making under pressure — and what it means for any organisation where culture goes unchecked. Source →
2. AI-xiety: The new workplace anxiety A new report suggests that while C-suite leaders have high expectations for AI boosting productivity, most employees (77%) feel it has added to their workload. Sarah Bregel reports on the gap between leadership optimism and workforce reality — and why acknowledging AI's impact beats pretending it's seamless. Reporter Profile →
3. Dreamers vs doers: Why do we stay stuck? New research on temporal focus reveals that people most likely to actually change careers have a balanced temporal focus — spending roughly equal time reflecting on the past, engaging with the present, and imagining the future. The "carpe diem" crowd? They're more likely to stay put. Original Study →
🧠 Truth or Lie: "Can You Fake It Till You Make It?"
From Anna Delvey to Frank Abagnale to Elizabeth Holmes, the stories write themselves. But what does the science actually say? Leanne breaks down:
- Identity shifting works — but only when anchored in real professional growth
- Confidence signalling influences early career outcomes
- Strategic exaggeration is common among founders — but there's a line between controllable claims and reckless ones
- The cognitive cost — pretending to be an expert burns brain energy, and the evidence on burnout is real
The verdict? A bit of "standing taller" can help — but faking expertise without the work behind it is a fast track to exhaustion.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Hiring: "Should I be hiring people who think like me or challenge me?"
- Honesty: "How honest should I be with my employer about my mental health?"
- Risk: "Have you ever regretted not taking a risk when you were younger?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottThe COVID inquiry report is out and it is brutal. It's claimed Downing Street was toxic and chaotic and that culture slowed the pandemic response. The findings suggest that leadership behaviours and toxic workplace dynamics inside Number 10 had a direct measurable impact on how fast or slowly the country responded to a global crisis. So what does this mean for business owners and leaders who find themselves in a crisis?
Al ElliottAlso this week, we're talking about the new anxiety around AI. Sarah Brega reports on just how many employees feel overwhelmed, not by robots replacing them, but the unrealistic expectations to be a bit more productive with them. So is AI a disaster for employees, or just the growing pains of a potentially useful tool?
Leanne ElliottPlus, why do so many people fantasise about changing careers but stay stuck year after year? Well, a new study has uncovered the mental patterns that separate dreamers from doers, and it Plus, in Truth or Lie, can you fake it until you make it?
Al ElliottWe'll test the evidence on whether confident performance buys you real career progress, or if it's just a short-term illusion.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are going to end with a brilliant question from a younger listener who very much enjoyed our Ask Old People segment over the summer. She wants to know all about our biggest risks and regrets. This is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by AI-xiety, the AI for work. By the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help you build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWe'll get stuck right into today's episode after a quick word from our sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. Welcome back. And it's December.
Leanne ElliottHappy December.
Al ElliottAnyone who knows Leanne—
Leanne ElliottAll the days are coming. All the days are coming.
Al ElliottAnyone who knows Leanne knows that the 1st of December is the time we go and get the tree.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottAnd that's, and that's just because one, Leanne is a child at heart and she loves Christmas. But number two, we usually head back to the UK around about the 16th, 17th. And driving back for Christmas takes us 3 days because we drive from Mostar in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which is about 2,000 kilometres to Manchester. So yeah, so we bring it in early. Anyway, talking of—
Leanne ElliottI don't think it's particularly early. I've seen a lot of people have had their Christmas decorations up for a couple of weeks.
Al ElliottWhat? No.
Leanne ElliottLike tree and all.
Al ElliottYeah. Right. Okay. You need to give me those names and addresses. I need to go around there and have a chat with them. Also, I just realised, I hope nobody knows exactly where we live because we just told burglars where we're not going to be. We're not going to be at home over Christmas.
Leanne ElliottI know. Yeah.
Al ElliottSo moving swiftly on, it's time for Leanne's favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottIt is. I'll cue that jingle. Oh, usually in December we put some Christmas bells behind the jingle.
Al ElliottYes, we do. Yes, we can do that. Absolutely. If I've still got the MP3 from last year, which I'm sure I do. Anyway, Leanne, what have you seen this year? This month? This year?
Leanne ElliottGod. Yeah, well, we'll be talking about that soon, won't we?
Al ElliottYes, we will.
Leanne ElliottVery soon. But in terms of this week.
Al ElliottYes, that's the word I'm looking for.
Leanne ElliottCOVID inquiry, Al. Have you seen it?
Al ElliottCOVID? Now, what was COVID again? I've forgotten.
Leanne ElliottSomething like flu type thing.
Al ElliottOh, it was just flu, wasn't it? It was a flu with— what do they call it? Flu with a marketing budget. That's what some people called it.
Leanne ElliottGoodness. But anyway, BoJo has been in a spin. Just in case people don't know who BoJo is, Boris Johnson, former Prime Minister of the UK, who was in charge during the pandemic. Honestly, it's brutal. And this is from the BBC as well, which there is some also some chat around the impartiality of the BBC right now. But that aside, the journalist Paul Seddon and Sam Francis have not minced their words.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottThe headline was Downing Street under Boris Johnson was a toxic and chaotic workplace, and that culture made the pandemic response worse.
Al ElliottI feel a little sorry because this is unprecedented.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo I can— I'm not saying that, that anyone who creates a toxic workplace culture is, they've got, you know, they've got an excuse or there's any kind of reason. But at the same time, can you imagine? Like, it's bad enough managing our little family of us 2 and a dog during that lockdown, let alone managing the entire country, 56 million people. But anyway, Maybe, maybe I'm being a bit soft. I'm not really a big BoJo fan, if the truth be told.
Leanne ElliottHe's a bit of a— bit of— I can't say that.
Al ElliottI can say it.
Leanne ElliottHe's a bit of a knob. Yes. Well, let's see, shall we? So this was reported by everybody, but I think the particular article that I enjoyed was from the BBC. So according to Baroness Heather Hallett, who led the inquiry into all 4 UK governments, so England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, Basically concluded they were all too slow to understand what was coming, and her summary of the whole thing was basically too little, too late. And it does get very specific. She says that Boris Johnson didn't respond with the urgency the situation demanded. His communication style didn't really give people a sense of caution and often accidentally undermined official health messaging at the time. Do you remember when at some point on the telly he said, yeah, I went and shook hands with everybody in the hospital? Oh no.
Al ElliottNo, that's akin to Bleachgate, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Oh goodness. Yeah, that's probably worse, isn't it? I don't know. Anyway, but what's interesting about this is that regardless of, as you say, the unprecedented nature of the pandemic or how well prepared we were to respond, a lot of the report has come back to the workplace culture inside Number 10. So the inquiry says there was destabilising behaviour from Dominic Cummings. Not exactly a shock for anyone who followed followed the news during the pandemic. The report also goes further than it ever has before to say that Dominic Cummings created a culture of fear, used misogynistic language, and overstepped massively trying to make key decision— decisions himself. And the important thing apparently is that Boris Johnson didn't push back. According to the inquiry, he allowed this dynamic to exist. Matt Hancock also gets a pretty tough write-up. No shock there. Um, so Hartlett says he developed a reputation. Yes, he did. For overpromising and underdelivering. He developed a different reputation for me during the pandemic.
Al ElliottWas he the one?
Leanne ElliottA bit hands-on.
Al ElliottA bit handsy.
Leanne ElliottA bit handsy.
Al ElliottHandsy Matt. And then was Dominic Cummings the one who went to get his eye tested up in Newcastle? Was that the same guy or was that a different guy?
Leanne ElliottOh, because he wanted to go to his weekend house.
Al ElliottWeekend, yes.
Leanne ElliottBut yeah, just had to go there for his eye test.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottShort-sighted of him really, wasn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Matt Hancock though, apart from from getting very up close and intimate with his assistant. The report also found that civil servants were regularly having to double-check things because they weren't sure that they could rely on him, which isn't really ideal in the middle of a national health emergency. The big question raised in the report though was timing. The report states that the UK was late to even consider lockdown as an option. By the time it happened, stricter measures had become unavoidable. And this is a painful bit. It says lockdown could have been shorter or maybe avoided altogether if earlier steps had been taken. It also criticizes the lack of an exit strategy for lockdown and highlights decisions like the Eat Out to Help Out, which encouraged people back into restaurants even though ministers knew more waves were coming. So according to the inquiry, it falsely reassured people that the pandemic was basically Over. Um, it isn't all about, all about Number 10 though. Um, across the devolved governments, the picture was much the same. In Scotland, decisions were taken in too small a circle. In Wales, the early response is described as inadequate. And in Northern Ireland, the whole process is called chaotic. Our thoughts.
Al ElliottI said before at the top, this is unprecedented. Now granted, Churchill dealt with almost unprecedented because, you know, the war and stuff.
Leanne ElliottIt was the Second World War though, wasn't it? So to be fair, there was already one to learn from, I guess.
Al ElliottTrue, true, true. Look, I'm not standing, I'm not sticking up for them. At the same time, it must have been a pretty tough place to work at that time. So I'm gonna stop because I'm gonna get us cancelled, but—
Leanne ElliottNo, you're not.
Al ElliottI think, I think, yes, this seems a little bit sort of like tabloidy where they've gone, oh, look, the government messed it all up. And it's like, yes, but what did they do that was right? I wanna see a bit, bit more of a balanced article saying, okay, these were the things we did wrong, but also what was done right. But I suppose that doesn't make good news, does it?
Leanne ElliottTo be fair, the full inquiry report may well have had some of that in. I was obviously drawn to the bits around workplace culture and leadership. But even anecdotally, Al, do you remember during the pandemic we were in Lithuania?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottAnd we went into lockdown on like the 2nd, 3rd of February.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottAnd I remember talking to my sister and she was like, what? Why? I thought you had like 6 cases. And I was like, yeah, we do. So Vilnius, the capital city that we were living in, shut down about a week before the entire country did, and we were locked down for 6 weeks and then basically had free openness until we left, which was the beginning of June. Whereas the UK went into lockdown mid-March.
Al ElliottI can't remember.
Leanne ElliottSo a good 6, 8 weeks later.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottAnd they were still in lockdown until the beginning of July.
Al ElliottRight. Okay. So that kind of exp— and also in Vilnius, literally they were putting like police at the end of the street. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottStrict.
Al ElliottYeah. Really, really strict. Really strict. So, and that was fun trying to work out how to get home deliveries when you're, when you're in a different country, you don't speak the language and you don't know the address 'cause it's an Airbnb.
Leanne ElliottAnd being outraged when they substitute your tonic for bitter lemon.
Al ElliottOh, come on.
Leanne ElliottThat does not a substitute make.
Al ElliottNo. No, because that's the biggest— that was the biggest mistake of the, uh, of the entire COVID period, wasn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Um, do you know what, I think, I think it's really interesting that leadership and culture is brought into this. And I think as a business owner, it's worth remembering that, that in this time of crisis when things are under pressure, um, it's really gonna show the cracks in culture. I know that sounds like such a cliché, but if people are scared to speak up, If there are certain voices that are dominant and they're not the right voices, then it is gonna really impact how well you're going to respond to this crisis, or it could be a turnaround or a transformation, any significant change within your business. Secondly, people need that consistency. I think where people struggled with the leaders in charge, as you said, Al, you had Dominic Cummings going up to Scotland even though you weren't meant to leave, you know, the town which you lived in. You had Boris Johnson saying, everyone stay home, help the NHS, and he's having office parties every other day. And then you've got Dominic, what's his name, Matt Hancock, who's just starting an affair with his— so when you're seeing all this as an employee, it's kind of like, well, why am I having to hold myself to this higher standard when this isn't being modelled by the most senior leadership? Not only in the room, but in the country.
Al ElliottThat's fair. So I think I totally agree with that, that They might have mismanaged the situation, but individually— but then, to be honest, I mean, we've got a new government in the UK, relatively new, like what, 18 months old? They don't seem much better. So I think they're all a bunch of— anyway.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So anyway, there you go. I'll leave a link to that article in the show notes. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottJust want to pick up on the, on the woman who wrote this. I think it is Lady Harriet Hallett.
Leanne ElliottWho led the— Baroness Heather Hallett, who led the inquiry.
Al ElliottLove it. Shout out to you. I also very— I'm a very big fan of alliterative peers. Okay, so I've been reading something by a woman called Sarah Bregel. Apparently she's pretty cool. She works for the BBC News at some point. BBC Features, she does.
Leanne ElliottNice.
Al ElliottYeah, very nice. But she also writes for Fast Company amongst other things, which is where I read this. She's talking about anxiety around AI and she's called it AI-xiety. AI-xiety.
Leanne ElliottHow are we spelling that?
Al ElliottAnxiety, but instead of the N, it's an I. So AI-xiety.
Leanne ElliottAI-xiety.
Al ElliottNow, all credit to Sarah. In print, it works well. In an audio format—
Leanne ElliottAI-xiety.
Al ElliottYeah, on format, it just, it doesn't really work that well. But anyway, just imagine you're reading that bit. It's quite a cool thing. So AI is supposed to make work easier is what Sarah says, but an Upwork report suggests that it's doing the exact opposite. So this Upwork report found that 96% of C-suite leaders, they expressed high expectations that AI will enhance productivity. Of course they did. 77% of employees say, say using AI has added to their workload, and 47% of employees using AI report they do not know how to achieve The expected productivity gains. So I think the problem is people thought that AI was coming for our jobs, but actually it's doing is it's making our jobs more difficult because leaders, any any sort of stakeholders thinking well if you're using AI surely you should be able to get more done because AI is doing more of your job. But the two problems with that are one is that the the expectation has increased and two nobody really knows that the average person in the street doesn't really. know how to use AI properly. They just type a sentence and hope that an entire, like, document is going to come out.
Leanne ElliottThat's what I do.
Al ElliottWhat do you think, Leanne? What are your thoughts on this?
Leanne ElliottI totally see the, the yes, that there is AI is causing anxiety. It's a new source of anxiety in our lives because we didn't have enough, Al. We didn't have enough. We need to get some more in there. So I think Sarah's absolutely right. Um, I think, you know what, I think it's always my frustration is that These things come in to— and people see it as a different, different way, right? It's been such an issue in our workplace for so long that workloads are just too high. You and I do employee insights with any and every client we've ever done. High workload always comes up as a challenge. So AI could arguably be a really great solution to reduce workloads. But what business leaders are doing is going, oh, well, that means I can give you more. So we can maintain this high level of workload, which has been unsustainable for decades. So I think that's the key issue, is that people are talking about it as a productivity tool rather than a way of reducing workload.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottAnd then I also, I think there's no real, as you say, agreed consensus in terms of how AI is used, what that looks like. Arguably, these senior leaders, how close are they in terms of actually using something like ChatGPT or Claude to actually do the elements of your day job? It's not that easy. I mean, you can say, oh, rewrite this in this tone, but it still requires you to kind of go through it and edit it. And sometimes I use it and think I'd actually would have been much quicker doing it myself from the beginning. So yeah, I don't know. I think, I think the anxiety will come from the fact that workload isn't going to get Any lower, and maybe AI was seen as a potential reliever of that. And there's no real consensus in terms of how, how it's used, what good looks like, all that lack of clarity, I guess.
Al ElliottWell, you hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what Sarah was saying. She said that the answer is to acknowledge it and talk about it more. So saying that 63% of people who were asked in a separate survey said communication about technology is essential. Sounds like corporate speak to me. And then they got a really good quote there saying, if you explain it, we'll accept it. If you don't, we'll resist, which makes total sense. So I think the problem is that if you don't say— if you say, here's AI, here's a little bit of— here's a pile of AI for you, go and use that and make your job better, then everyone's like, well, I can't go back and say I don't know how to use it because then they might take it away from me.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottOr if you just go, oh, well, you know, I know you're using AI, but To make your job easier. But, you know, we're recalibrating what we're expecting from you. And the person's going, I am using AI, but it's taking me 3 times as long. The problem is this silence. The problem is that people just need to open up, just be honest about it. And I think leaders going, we know you're using AI, even if you're not, even if we've said you shouldn't, we know you're using it. So why don't we just all work together?
Leanne ElliottDo you know what? It's the same organizational problems that we just haven't solved, and now we're adding another layer of complexity.
Al ElliottYeah, agreed. Agreed. Lee?
Leanne ElliottAnd another thing.
Al ElliottYou should be president. You should be, you should be prime minister. Lee, what else have you seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottWhy do we dream of changing careers, Al, but we rarely do?
Al ElliottI don't dream of changing careers. I enjoy doing this.
Leanne ElliottI did once dream of changing my career.
Al ElliottYes, you did.
Leanne ElliottOr shifting, pivoting, pivot rather than change.
Al ElliottYeah, she was gonna be a burlesque dancer.
Leanne ElliottYes, I was. Anyway. Yeah, I thought, you know what, this is some new research I came across this week, and I thought it was timely, Al, because it's December, the finish line is in sight, and this is the time of year, usually between that last week between Christmas and New Year, where we start to reflect, we start to realise how exhausted we are and how overwhelmed we are, and we start telling ourselves, right, in January I'm going to change my job, I'm finally going to pursue that qualification, I'm going to start that business. Um, and it's, it's disappeared by February.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so this research basically looked at this gap. So it looked at what happens between wanting to change and actually making a change. So the research followed 306 workers who'd all registered for subsidised career counselling.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo this wasn't people vaguely daydreaming about something new. They'd already taken That first step, so the researchers tracked them across four months to see who actually made a move. Now the focus bear with me there are some words here that are irritatingly psychologicalised, but you'll understand. So the focus was on something called temporal focus, which is basically where your mind naturally spends its time. Are you someone who thinks a lot about the past? Are you someone who? firmly rooted in the present, or do you spend more of your mental life in the future? Almost a psychology Christmas Carol, if you will.
Al ElliottI love it. I'm now just really trying to think of a clever pun for Christmas carols and psychology. I'll come back to you. If I think of one, I'll interrupt this important, important news story with my thoughts.
Leanne ElliottThank you. So the researchers then used a statistical technique to basically group people by mindset and found 3 distinct patterns. So first, there was a large group with what's called a balanced temporal focus. Any guesses on what that is, Al?
Al ElliottThey spend roughly equal amounts of time in the past, the present, and the future.
Leanne ElliottExactly. So they reflect on what has shaped them, they've understood their current reality, and they're connecting those insights to where they want to go next. And this group was by far the most likely to take meaningful action. So applying for roles, following through on their plans, and actually making a career change by the second wave of data. So I think it was over 4 months, wasn't it, that they tracked them? So probably within a month or so. Then there was a group the researchers called Anytime But Now.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo these individuals spent a lot of time thinking about past experiences and imagining future possibilities, but paid very little attention to the here and now. They expressed the strongest longing for a different career, but they were the least active. So lower job search activity, higher feelings of inaction, and the lowest likelihood to actually move jobs. Then we had the final group, which were called the carpe diem individuals.
Al ElliottSeize the day.
Leanne ElliottSeize the day. Very present-focused, less concentrated with old regrets, or big future plans, and they actually reported the highest wellbeing and confidence at the start, but were also less likely to uproot themselves. So they didn't seem especially distressed and may simply have valued the comfort of their current situation more than the disruption of pursuing something new. So, you know, that cliché of kind of like, you have to live in the moment to really be happy.
Al ElliottYeah, the past is gone, the future's not here, live in the present because that's why it's They call it a present because it's a gift or some shit.
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly, exactly. So the carpe diem people are doing this, and it is showing that they're experiencing high levels of wellbeing, but they're also less likely to change because they don't want to rock their present boat.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSo yes, the pattern was really clear, and I thought really interesting in that it all depended on where we spend most of our thinking time. There was another finding which was which is perhaps more obvious, and that was the more people that actively searched for a job, the more likely they were to move.
Al ElliottThat's fair.
Leanne ElliottI don't think we needed a big study to be able to kind of, yeah, understand that. But yeah, interestingly, none of the profiles predicted big changes in mental health over 4 months. So while the carpe diem lot enjoyed feelings of wellbeing in the present, in terms of more significant mental health impacts, there was no, there was no change. But I thought it's really interesting. What is, is really important to know if you're thinking about this change in, in January is this is trainable. So just because you might naturally prefer to be in any time but now or a carpe diem, you can train yourself to have more temporal balance. And it is things that sound cheesy and aren't and don't sound particularly scientific, but really are. So, you know that journaling exercise at the end of every day? You say, what am I grateful for about yesterday? What am I grateful about today? What am I looking forward to tomorrow? Exercise like that will help with—
Al ElliottTemporal focus.
Leanne ElliottBalance, yeah.
Al ElliottTemporal balance.
Leanne ElliottTemporal focus, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yeah, there you go. I'll leave a link to the original study in the show notes. I'm not gonna say it's a fun read because it's very scientific. But it is very, very interesting. So yeah, I'll leave a link in the show notes.
Al ElliottLovely. Thank you so much. Okay, so after a very quick break, we're gonna come back with our truth or lie segment. This is where we take something which everyone believes to be true. And then I say to Leanne, is it actually true? And we generally try and make it around work or psychology or science or something like that, don't we?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo we've got a great one coming up after the break. We'll see you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's Us, by the way.
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and culture. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Lunch wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
Leanne ElliottDefinitely.
Al ElliottThey come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Okay. Welcome back to the Truth, Lies and Work podcast and the time for the truth or lie. See what we did there? It's all on brand. It's a format point. So this is, as we say, our weekly myth-busting segment where we take a big claim, usually from psychology, and say, is it true or is it a lie? Now we've done birth order, as in, are older people better looking, earn more money, and nicer people? And the answer is yes, because I am. No, that was untrue. We've done sleep. Can you really sleep for 4 hours a night? We've done lie detection. This week we're going to dangerous territory for us entrepreneurs and anyone else who's felt slightly out of their depth at work. Can you fake it until you make it? If you've never heard this phrase, I'm sure you have. If you never have, Then usually when in entrepreneurial circles or startup or founder circles, people will often just go, fake it till you make it. It's fine. That's the way you do it. Um, I've done it 100%. I've done it. I think on every single venture I've, I've started, I've faked it till I've made it. But is it true? Can you actually fake it until you make it?
Leanne ElliottI think this does all start with stories, doesn't it? Whether it be stories of people you know, your own experiences, or the ones out there in pop culture. And there are so Many. Anna Delvey. Have you watched Inventing Anna on Netflix?
Al ElliottI started watching it, but didn't get on with it.
Leanne ElliottOh, it's so good. It's so good. So if you haven't, basically she pretended to be a German heiress in New York's elite circles, presented herself perfectly, the clothes, the tone, confidence, the pitch deck. She convinced investors to give her millions of dollars towards an arts foundation. She lived in hotel penthouses, Borrowed private jets. An insane amount of things happened. But eventually the illusion did collapse and she was convicted of fraud and is now in prison or recently released. I'm not sure. Then you've got Frank Abagnale.
Al ElliottAbagnale.
Leanne ElliottAbagnale.
Al ElliottLeonardo DiCaprio.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI think it's Frank. How do you say Frank?
Leanne ElliottAbagnale.
Al ElliottI think the G is silent.
Leanne ElliottOh, Abagnale.
Al ElliottAbagnale, I think.
Leanne ElliottSo yes, but yeah, Leonardo DiCaprio's character in Catch Me If You Can, he impersonated a pilot, a doctor, A lawyer, all before he turned 21.
Al ElliottHero.
Leanne ElliottHe forged documents, ran elaborate schemes, finally caught in the end, and he ended up consulting for the FBI on fraud detection. So, a man literally faked everything, became a world expert in how to do it.
Al ElliottBrilliant.
Leanne ElliottAnd then, of course, within the business world, Elizabeth Holmes, founder of Theranos. She modelled herself on Steve Jobs, convinced global leaders and investors that a single drop of blood could power hundreds of medical tests. The company itself hit billions in valuation before the science collapsed and she was prosecuted.
Al ElliottI've got one. I've got one I learned about the other day. There's quite a famous note-taking app that has just gone to like the moon, like $1 billion valuation or something. And it started off with the 2 founders, would they join the video call as the app and they would just be typing out, they'd be typing out the summaries.
Leanne ElliottWow.
Al ElliottThat's how it started. They were living on someone's couch, so they faked it till they made it. And now it's starting to bite them in the ass a little. People are going, that's not cool. That's supposed to be like privileged information.
Leanne ElliottAnyway. Yeah, data protection, all that.
Al ElliottAnyway, so they're not in prison. They're millionaires.
Leanne ElliottWell, there you go. So it does raise the question, can you fake it till you make it? What happens when things go wrong? Are they just the stories we hear about and why there's Netflix series made from them?
Al ElliottTrue.
Leanne ElliottSo in terms of where does the idea come from, from a psychology sense, it's rooted in social construct theory.
Al ElliottSo it's the idea that identity is partially built through behaviour.
Leanne ElliottSo, if you act confident, people would treat you as confident, and that changes how you feel, and then sometimes how you actually perform. So, the idea isn't ridiculous, but whether it actually works depends on what fake it means. So, in terms of a case for, let's say it's true.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottIdentity shifting can improve performance. So, this was a study from Stockholm University. They interviewed and tracked people who deliberately behaved more confidently at work. So speaking up, taking on projects, mirroring senior colleagues. These participants weren't lying about their expertise, but they were adopting confident behaviour to counter, counter any feelings of imposter phenomenon. The key finding was that acting as if they were confident helped to reduce anxiety over time, but only when it was paired with real skill development.
Al ElliottGot it.
Leanne ElliottSo behaviour helped, But they had to be anchored in some kind of professional growth.
Al ElliottSo, you couldn't just blag it?
Leanne ElliottYou couldn't just blag it. No. The second thing is confidence signalling has also been found to influence early opportunities. So, what this basically means, this was from a qualitative study looking at newcomers trying to gain credibility in professional settings. So, they did interviews, followed them over several months, workplace observations, that type of thing. They found that people who presented themselves confidently, so again, things like clear speech, decisive communication, very professional posture, they were trusted faster and even given stretch opportunities sooner. So really, that's because humans rely very heavily on social cues to judge competence when they don't yet have the data. So yes, signal— signaling that confidence can create momentum in someone's early career. Then there's the fact that some people genuinely can just play multiple identities. So they're very good at self-monitoring, and people who are good at self-monitoring naturally adapt their behaviour to different social settings. So they can shift into a more professional version of themselves without any kind of negative psychosocial or psychological effects. So these participants basically in the study completed personality inventories, And behavioural tasks. And the researchers found that people who were very good at self-monitoring had less internal conflict, experienced less stress, fewer negative emotions. So, when they performed a confident version of themselves, people saw it as authentic, not just kind of playing up professionalism. Makes sense?
Al ElliottThat all makes sense so far, yep.
Leanne ElliottThen we have the entrepreneurs enter the chat.
Al ElliottUh-oh. Uh-oh. We're in for a kicking, I suspect, in this bit.
Leanne ElliottYou're not in for a kicking at all. There is some new research into entrepreneurship that shows that Some faking it is actually very normal. So like you said, Al, everyone in those circles said, oh, you all gotta fake it until you make it.
Al ElliottBehind every success is a lie. Someone once told me that.
Leanne ElliottOh, nice. Nice. So this paper examined how founders exaggerated in the early stages of their business, so polishing their pitch, talking up future potential, maybe even creatively presenting progress to attract support. And what they found is there's 3 things that determine whether this is helpful or destructive.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo first is controllable versus uncontrollable claims. So promising things you can deliver, like we'll release a beta version in the next 6 weeks, is fixable. That's fine. What's more problematic is if you're promising things that you can't control, like guaranteeing regulatory approval or something like that.
Al ElliottOkay. I've got it. Yep. Okay.
Leanne ElliottThen we have sole action versus contingent action. So basically claims you can deliver alone are much safer, whereas claims that require hundreds of people or external systems to behave perfectly usually unravel. So, it needs to kind of be in our control that we can deliver directly.
Al ElliottMakes sense.
Leanne ElliottThat's good. The alternatives, not so much. And then, an extension of that limited stakeholder interactions, basically, the more people you have to maintain the illusion for, the harder it becomes. to sustain. I think that's probably where we saw Theranos kind of unravel, wasn't it? When that started to get such high traction. Was it even Barack Obama who was talking about Elizabeth Holmes and how awesome her work was and stuff?
Al ElliottSomething like that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, crazy. So, yeah, so basically the key takeaway from this is that some early-stage exaggeration is very common and isn't a problem. But once the gap between promise and reality grows too wide, They've found it starts slipping into misconduct. And this is where the faking it starts to unravel, is the stress of it. So, that performing as if you are confident and competent can create real psychological strain, because it sounds harmless, but it is heavy work if there's a difference between how we're presenting ourselves and how we're feeling internally. So, a study on this, which was relevant, looked at imposter syndrome. 212 employees basically measured anxiety, role conflict, and coping strategies. And when people tried to act competent when they didn't, had higher anxiety, higher stress, lower job satisfaction, and worse long-term coping. So pretending you're coping is worse than just saying, I'm still trying to figure this all out.
Al ElliottMakes sense.
Leanne ElliottThe next issue is that pretending to be an expert burns our cognitive energy, our brain energy. So one experiment asked people to act like experts on topics they didn't I'm asked that quite a lot as well. And they kept the performance, and as they kept the performance going, researchers basically measured working memory, reaction times, and decision-making accuracy, and all of them dropped off because the brain hates holding up a lie when we're doing real, real work. And then also, finally, people notice. People notice the performance gaps over time. So, a workplace study measured how coworkers rated people who exaggerated their competence. And the pattern was likely a short-term likability boost, a sharp decline in trust, and the biggest backlash when the gap between words and ability got too big to hide. And then, of course, entrepreneurs, just to finish the story, have very specific risks and their own special risk patterns. So, one major study, which is really interesting, it's published in May this year, basically says you should get worried when these 3 things happen. So, as you're— if you're an investor or a stakeholder, start to get concerned. The founder makes claims about things completely outside their control. The success of the claim depends on other people behaving in very specific ways, and the founder has made those big claims to multiple stakeholders. So, exactly what we said before, if you're an entrepreneur doing this, if you're a stakeholder hearing this, then this is a massive red flag and Quite likely will escalate, um, and often founders, um, are then faced with fraud charges. Um, so there you go. Verdict, truth or lie, can you fake it until you make it? Well, the truth is you can fake confidence, but you can't fake competence.
Al ElliottOh, I like that.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So if faking it means that you stand a bit taller, you, um, speak like you back yourself up, you take on challenges even when you feel nervous, you behave like somebody who learns fast, Then yeah, the research supports that, that yeah, people genuinely grow into that identity and you can fake it till you make it. But if fake it means you pretend you're an expert, you say you've done things that you haven't, or you're just bluffing your way through the work, then it's a lie and a dangerous one personally, professionally, and sometimes even legally.
Al ElliottI love that. That's really, really interesting. There's a great podcast I'm listening to at the moment. It's not part of the Hullespot I think you're contractually obligated to only listen to podcasts from us. And it's called Sea of Lies by the Canadian Broadcasting Society or something, CBS. And it is really good. And it's, there's a lot of that in there and it's cool.
Leanne ElliottNice.
Al ElliottI just realized I'm on episode 5, 4 or 5, and I was about to give it away. I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottInteresting. Well, there you go. That's another podcast recommendation for you. But yeah, that's the takeaway. Fake the confidence if you need to, but do that whilst you're building it. building the competence, because that's the bit that actually lasts. And we could also put it like this, when we look at every study that we looked into, all lines up to the same point. Confidence can open a door. Competence is what lets you stay in the room.
Al ElliottI love that. I love that. Thank you so much. I'm really, really enjoying these. I'm going to give you a little applause for that. Well done. Yeah, that was fantastic. Fantastic. Okay, so we're on to the world-famous weekly workplace surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. You've got more talking to do, Leanne, I'm afraid. Yes, You better have drank that water 'cause you've got another 15 minutes of talking. So this is basically where we take your questions and I put them to Leanne and she answers them perfectly. Do we have anyone, any guests this week, or is it just us?
Leanne ElliottWe do, we have Harry back this week. We continue understandably to get a fair few questions about occupational health because as an occupational psychologist, there's an assumption that these 2 worlds collide in and cross over more than they do. So yes, Harry is back to answer a question that actually does move a bit more into our world, but he had such an interesting take on it.
Al ElliottLovely. So we now know what to do with those big bundle of questions that we didn't know how to answer before.
Leanne ElliottSack of letters.
Al ElliottYes, sack of letters. So, this question number 1, should I be hiring people who think like me or challenge me? I've noticed a difference in leadership styles on my team. My boss prefers to hire and promote people who closely match how she thinks and works. She says that she values people who can execute her vision exactly as imagined. She sounds fun at parties. I'm the opposite. I like it when my team brings new ideas, challenges, um, and push things in directions I wouldn't have considered. I still value alignment and clarity, but I don't hire for sameness. Is one approach better than the other? Yes. Okay. Question number 2.
Leanne ElliottGo. Do you wanna answer this one, Al?
Al ElliottRight. If you ask me this, I would say the person who, um, who wants someone who closely matches what they think can work, I think they're, they're a fool. I think they're a goddamn fool. Um, I think Executing a vision exactly as imagined. Well, what— who's— who gave you the right to think that this is the exact right way to do it? So, uh, no, I'm not. But then, to be honest, that's just my little, um, my little sort of brain going, someone tells me exactly what to do, I'm going to do it very differently. So what's the proper answer, Lee?
Leanne ElliottI, I agree with you, but there's some slight nuance.
Al ElliottIt depends.
Leanne ElliottI didn't want to say that, but it kind of does depend. So I think Do— should you hire people exactly like you? Hell no. Hard no. Absolutely not. You should be hiring people who have the competencies and the skills and experience and abilities you need to do that job. And ideally, you're gonna recruit somebody who is gonna challenge you and bring new ideas and, and push things in ways you wouldn't have considered, because that's where innovation comes from. That's where creativity comes from. That's where high performance comes from. So no, you shouldn't be hiring people like you, not to mention that is also potentially a massive Um, discrimination issue that could be leading to unlawful recruitment practices. So, you need to be careful around that as well. Where you do want to have people aligned is in terms of values and connection with that vision. So, it's not they need to be exactly like you, but values are aligned, they're consistent. So, Al, you and I have always said all of our content free forever.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottIf we create content beyond Truth, Lies and Work, That's something different. But if it's Truth, Lies and Work, all content free forever. We're never gonna paywall Truth, Lies and Work, 'cause it's important to us that these things are out there.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottIf we hired a team member who was pushing us constantly to put up paywalls and subscriptions and all that kind of stuff, we'd be like, no, that's fundamentally misaligned with the mission that— so they're challenging us in ways that are fundamentally opposite to the values we hold as individuals and as a company.
Al ElliottMakes sense.
Leanne ElliottSo, that's not going to work. So, we want people to be aligned with our values and connected with the vision of what we're trying to do here, but not necessarily be exactly like us in terms of individual characteristics or ways of thinking. And the problem is, if we do recruit people just like us, that means we get stuck into something called groupthink. Have you heard of groupthink before, Al?
Al ElliottI've read about it, and I've heard you say it once, but I wasn't sure what it meant. And at that point, at this point, I'm too afraid to ask.
Leanne ElliottIt basically means that a team doesn't have psychological safety.
Al ElliottAll right.
Leanne ElliottOr a team is so on the same page that there's no difference of diversity of thought, which is really important. So, we'll typically see groupthink in either organizations or teams that don't have any psychological safety or are very, I can never say this word, homogenous.
Al ElliottOh, yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, don't have much diversity within the team. And what that looks like is decision makers will take huge risks because they have no kind of sense of threat of people disagreeing with them. People will rationalise away any evidence or information that might be contrary to decisions, which means that product launches could fail or a whole host of commercial problems. Ethically, things start to get a bit blurry.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottWe also then start to see things like subtle pressure being put on any group member that does express any doubts. And then also, we're going to get that kind of what's called in the research mind guards. So, group members that basically act as bodyguards to decisions. So, they'll stifle any kind of dissent or challenge from outside the group. And it just kind of means that everything stifled, creativity, innovation, performance, that affects speed to market, how well you can serve your customers, and can also lead to— some ethical and legal problems there as well. So, we don't want groupthink. And recruiting people who are diverse in thought is a great way to avoid that.
Al ElliottLove it. Love it. Cool.
Leanne ElliottYou're looking at me like, how do you know this?
Al ElliottHow do you know all these things?
Leanne ElliottWide-eyed.
Al ElliottI know. She's stunned. She's brilliant. I love this. And also, I'm really, really enjoying now when you go, Um, it's called groupthink. Have you heard of that, Al? Because I'm like, okay, that's good because I get an opportunity to go, uh, no or yes or whatever. I don't know what it means. So yeah, keep doing that.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottI like it. Okay.
Leanne ElliottSo I've got a wink then, listeners. That's nice.
Al ElliottI've got a little twitch. I've got something in my eye. Question number 2, how honest should I be with my employer about my mental health? So I, this person writes, I'm finding things tough at the moment. It's starting to affect me at work. I really want to be honest with my employer, but I'm worried it could backfire or change how I'm treated. So, is it better to be upfront or should I keep things to myself?
Leanne ElliottA really tough question, and I think one that people are starting to, starting to feel as well this time of year when things are just starting to get a bit much. This does very much sit in our, in our wheelhouse, but it also sits in the wheelhouse of occupational health. So, let's go and hear from Harry Kramer from SmartClinic to get an oc health point of view.
Al ElliottFirstly, I'm sorry to hear that you're finding things tough. Equally, I'm also sorry that you're worried that talking to your employer about it might backfire. In honesty, that doesn't sound like an ideal relationship between you and your employer. Keeping things to yourself is rarely the best option, though. You're not alone, and colleagues can be some of the best people to talk to sometimes because they'll share a lot of very similar experiences with you. So, they may just be able to empathise with your situation. If there is someone that you feel safe talking to, you absolutely should. Whether this is your HR team, your line manager, or anyone else in the organisation with the power to provide some support for you. You may find they also have some other resources that you can make use of. It could be like a talking therapy. They might have that kind of service, or they might have an employee assistance programme that you can access, or they might even have an occupational health service that they can refer you to. But if you don't let anyone know, then they can't help. So, give them a chance, and you never know, you may just be glad that you did.
Leanne ElliottThe main thing here, I think, that Harry said is, is really emphasising you are not alone. You absolutely are not alone. Look at the resources the organisation might already have. That will also give you an idea of how open to discussing mental health in the workplace might be in this organisation. Chat to your colleagues. Chat to friends and family if you're really struggling. Go back on some episodes of this podcast. We've talked about mental health, we've talked about grief, we've talked about all sorts of things. And if you are feeling in distress or despair, if you are experiencing thoughts of suicide, please do consider ringing the Samaritans. You can call free from the UK, 116 123.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. And as we said, all the links are in the show notes. Okay, so moving Slightly away from quite a serious—
Leanne ElliottIt's a shift in tone.
Al ElliottIt's a shift in tone. And I was trying to find the way to shift the tone, but thank you.
Leanne ElliottI think we just need to shift it.
Al ElliottJust need to shift it. Just, just, yes. Right. Okay. So on to some new shift. Have you ever— this person writes, have you ever regretted not taking a risk? Hi, Al and Leanne.
Leanne ElliottHello.
Al ElliottOver the summer, you did the segment called Ask Old People where you answered, you answered some of the top workplace questions from Reddit. Um, just so you know, we know we're not old, but we are older than a lot of people. I absolutely loved it. I'm not, not saying you're old, by the way, just older than me. Thank you very much. I'm in my 20s. Lucky bastard. And I've got a question I'd love to hear your take on. Have you ever regretted not taking a risk when you were younger? Is there something, a bold move you didn't make and it still sits with you a little bit? I'm weighing up something quite big at the moment, and I think I'm worried I'll look back and regret playing it safe, but at the same time, I don't wanna make huge mistakes. Huge mistake. Sorry. How do you know the difference between a smart risk and a reckless one?
Leanne ElliottYou don't. You don't.
Al ElliottWell, I was about to say, and does that shift with age? It's the last part of that. Um, and no, it doesn't. Oh, by the way, we need to read out the last line because it says, thanks, love the show.
Leanne ElliottAww.
Al ElliottI love you too.
Leanne ElliottThanks. Thanks, Butch. Um, I would say you're in your 20s, take the risk because you've got time to recover. Um, and I don't know if you have a good sense over risk being smart or reckless as you get older. I think you just become a lot more cautious because it takes hard to recover if it is a reckless risk.
Al ElliottYes, it takes— if you are in your 60s and you lose all your money, it's so much more difficult to get it back than if you were in your— well, not so much more difficult, but if it takes 10 years to get it back, you're in your 70s, whereas in your 20s, lose all your money. I always think that if you're in your 20s, basically try everything except childbirth and Morris dancing. Just go, go in there and just, just have fun. Just say yes to everything and see what happens. Because now this is where Leanne and I are gonna slightly differ, but I used to have a, have a thing that I said in my late 20s, early 30s, that was, if you can accept the consequences of it going bad, then just do it.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Accepting that worst case scenario, isn't it?
Al ElliottExactly. That's an even better way of saying, I probably did say it. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottThat's how I used to say it.
Al ElliottYeah. If you accept the worst case scenario, then I'll edit that out. Don't worry. Accept the worst case scenario, then go for it.
Leanne ElliottThis person didn't want our nostalgic advice, Al. They were asking us a very specific question.
Al ElliottSorry.
Leanne ElliottThey asked us about not taking a mistake and regretting it, not taking a risk when we're younger and regretting it. Broadly, no. There's only one thing that sticks in my head, and that is almost like a sliding doors moment. I thought, what would my life and career look like Probably, I'm pretty confident for the worst, but it's the only one that I think, hmm. Do you remember, Al, when you and I—
Al ElliottPolitics?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottYep, I knew it was gonna be that.
Leanne ElliottDid you?
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottWe'd maybe been dating, what, 6, 8 months or so?
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottUm, and I got offered a job with the, um, National Police Improvement Agency in Harrogate, proper psychologist role, which was like gold dust at the time because it was like 2008, 2009 when it was 2008. Yeah, everything was screwed from the financial crisis. So, so I got offered it, but it was on a fixed-term contract. It was only 10 months. And I remember speaking to my dad and he was kind of like, oh, you could do, you know, it'd be great experience and you'll have an amazing organisation on your, on your CV. And we kind of talked about it. He's like, if it was in Manchester, it was where you already settled, it's 10 months, I'd say go for it. But you're gonna have to uproot your entire life to Harrogate, which is gonna come with a cost as well. for 10 months. And let's be honest, if public services have got the money, they're gonna put you on an employment full-time contract, aren't they? So I declined and I stayed in Manchester. But that's the only sliding doors moment I think, I wonder what if, you know? Is there anything that you regret?
Al ElliottThere's lots of things I kind of regret, but the problem is that you don't know how they would've turned out because you haven't done them. So like, the sliding doors movie is fine because you can see how it turned out. But the fact is that you go, oh, I got offered that thing and I never, I never took it. Or I could have, I could have bought Bitcoin when it was a quid. Yeah, but you didn't. So, so it's not like you go, oh, I really regret not doing that. It's like you didn't know when Bitcoin was a quid that it'll be $120,000 now. Although if you're listening to this now in December, it's a little bit sadder than that. Um, but so I think just, just, just take the decision that you can accept the worst case scenarios of. That's it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd you are going to, you are gonna miss out on opportunities that you're gonna regret in the future. You 100% are. You're also gonna take opportunities that won't work out. But just increase your surface area of luck and just take sensible decisions, but with a slight risk. And do you know what? It'll always work out fine, or it won't.
Leanne ElliottI mean, it probably will. You're in your 20s.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYou know, you've got good people around you, strong support network. Yeah, it'll work out. I would say now is the time to be more reckless than any other time, probably, in your life. So. If you're excited by it, do it.
Al ElliottYes, totally agree. Just do it. There you go. That could be a slogan for a company, couldn't it? So I think that's it. If you've got a question that you want me to put to Leanne, then check the show notes. There's a way to get in touch there. It's mainly anonymous, but also we kind of like it if occasionally someone puts their name on it. That'd be kind of nice. Okay, so that's all for now. Join us next Tuesday for another edition of this ridiculousness, this nonsense that we call This Week in Work.
Leanne ElliottWe're talking about doing this live in the new year.
Al ElliottWe are.
Leanne ElliottAnd I'm not sure.
Al ElliottNo, I think it will be fine. It'll be fine. We'll do a rehearsal like they do BBC Breakfast Live.
Leanne ElliottNo, what's it called? Saturday Kitchen.
Al ElliottThat's the one. I always get that wrong. Saturday Kitchen for something for the weekend. So this Thursday, we've got another podcast host who's coming to the show, Aoife O'Brien. She's the host of Happier at Work, and she's gonna talk about why some people are just difficult. That's me today. If you're not subscribed, click subscribe. If you've not emailed Leanne to tell her she's the better part of the better world, One of the podcasters, then you should go and do that now. What else should people do?
Leanne ElliottCome follow us on the LinkedIn. I finally convinced Al to embrace LinkedIn life and he started posting much more regularly. And may I say, brilliantly.
Al ElliottWell, you may, you say, may I say brilliantly doesn't necessarily mean that it is. It's just like, may I say brilliantly? Perhaps not. If I've read something— I think it's brilliant. Oh, you're so cute. You're so supportive. I'm like a little baby mini, mini Lee. That's what I am because Leanne's there. rocking with like 5,000 followers and I've got like 1,200.
Leanne ElliottJust hit 4,000 actually. But yeah, 5,000 would be a lofty goal for the end of the year. But who knows, we could make it happen. If you're listening, come over and follow me and Al on LinkedIn. We'll leave the link in the show notes. We also leave all sorts of links down there to get in touch to book a meeting with us. I'm surprised more people don't do that. Yeah, actually. Um, and we should also say as well that we are starting a new, a new project, kind of mid-project with it. Um, but we are looking for founders of businesses who are 5 or more years old and have between 15 and 75 employees. We want to talk to you. We're creating this new program, um, includes lots of research as well, and we want your honest feedback. Um, so if you want to learn more about that, get in touch.
Al ElliottOkay, we'll see you next week.
Leanne ElliottBye.
Al ElliottBye-bye.