Episode 258 · 16 December 2025 · 49:49
Does Christmas Change Your Mood? PLUS! Apple's Lost Leaders, Veteran Talent and the Top 1% of Employers
Does Christmas Change Your Mood? PLUS! Apple's Lost Leaders, Veteran Talent and the Top 1% of Employers
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Top 1% Employer Certification: What Makes a Great Workplace?
news roundup#employer-certification#great-workplace#workplace-culture
Apple's Leadership Shake-Up: Is Innovation Stalling?
news roundup#apple#leadership#innovation
Veteran Talent: The Hidden Leadership Value in Liminality
news roundup#veteran-talent#leadership#liminality
Truth or Lie: Is the Christmas Spirit Real?
truth or lie#christmas-spirit#psychology#mood
Workplace Surgery: Is It Unprofessional to Skip the Office Christmas Party?
workplace surgery#office-christmas-party#professionalism#workplace-etiquette
Workplace Surgery: Can an Employer Decline an Occupational Health Referral?
workplace surgery#occupational-health#employer-obligations#workplace-policy
Workplace Surgery: Is My Manager Quietly Sabotaging Me?
workplace surgery#manager-sabotage#workplace-relationships#career-advice
Wrap-Up and Holiday Content Preview
news roundup#podcast-wrap-up#holiday-content#preview
Show notes
Does Christmas Change Your Mood? PLUS! Apple's Lost Leaders, Veteran Talent and the Top 1% of Employers
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down a new "Top 1% Employer" certification, Apple's leadership exodus, and new research on why organisations — not veterans — are failing at civilian transition. Plus, in Truth or Lie: is the Christmas spirit actually real?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Escape the City launches its "Top 1% Employer" certification A new accreditation designed to spotlight genuinely progressive employers. The audit covers pay, inclusion, leadership, wellbeing, flexibility and anonymous employee feedback. Positive News highlighted four featured organisations:
- Sharky & George — flexible working, healthcare and nomad-friendly policies
- The Economist Educational Foundation — strong purpose and supportive leadership
- Rare Recruitment — a leader in inclusive hiring, especially for underrepresented groups
- Unifrog — £500 annual learning budget and company-wide bonus
It raises a bigger question: if we claim a workplace is "great", what exactly should be measured? Source → Escape the City →
2. Apple's leadership shake-up Apple has lost four senior leaders in quick succession, including its VP of Human Interface Design to Meta. Rumours of Tim Cook preparing to step aside continue to grow. Meanwhile, competitors are accelerating AI releases as the Vision Pro struggles to find momentum. Investors are calling for clarity on Apple's AI strategy as the tech landscape shifts. Source →
3. Supporting veterans in civilian careers New research by James Hardy, guided by Dr Hayley Lewis, explores the transition challenges faced by UK veterans. Themes include identity loss, misunderstanding of collective leadership skills, culture shock around workplace politics and additional barriers for female veterans. The core finding: veterans aren't failing to adapt — organisations are failing to integrate them.
More from James Hardy: linkedin.com/in/james-hardy-603419127
🧠 Truth or Lie: Is the Christmas Spirit Real?
Al and Leanne unpack the research behind seasonal mood shifts. Studies show Christmas can raise wellbeing through connection, ritual and nostalgia — but stress, comparison and financial pressure can weaken the effect. The "Christmas spirit" exists, but only when the conditions are right. Including the brilliantly named paper What Makes for a Merry Christmas? and the two groups it identified: those who experience Christmas as joyful, and those who experience it as stressful.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Christmas party: "Is it unprofessional to skip the office Christmas party?"
- Occupational health: "Do employers have to approve every Occupational Health referral request?"
- Sabotage or something else?: "Is my manager quietly undermining me, or is something else going on?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
🎧 Coming Up Thursday
We kick off our Christmas and New Year specials — highlights of 2025, expert predictions for 2026, and two feed-drop interviews.
P.S. You still have time to enter the competition offered by last week's guest, Rob Kalwarowsky, for a chance to win six weeks of coaching or his book. Go to robkalwarowsky.com/reason to get the Find Your Reason tool and enter the draw before Christmas Day 2025.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottJobs platform Escape the City has launched a top 1% employer certification. They say these employers have passed an in-depth culture audit supported by anonymous employee feedback. Does this list genuinely reflect the science of good workplaces? And what should we actually be measuring if we want to call a workplace great?
Al ElliottAlso this week, Apple is making a lot of noise. They've waved goodbye to 4 senior leaders. A top designer has jumped ship to Meta. Oh no. And everyone's whispering that Tim might be getting ready to hand over the keys. So is this a wobble before a comeback, or is Apple really genuinely struggling to keep up with the very tech wave it helped create?
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, is the Christmas spirit an actual psychological thing? Does the season genuinely shift our mood and behaviour, or is it all just sugar, nostalgia, and a lot of marketing?
Al ElliottPlus, the workplace surgery. One listener asks, is it unprofessional to skip the office Christmas party?
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behaviour Science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottSo let's get right into it after a quick word from our sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello. Welcome to the last This Week in Work of 2025. From Thursday, we'll be bringing you our Christmas and New Year content. We're bringing you the highlights of the year, including our most downloaded episode of 2025, our annual predictions episodes where we ask experts what they think the world of work is going to look like in 2026. And we have a couple of feed drops for you just in case you don't know what feed drops are. That's when we, or usually Leanne, appears on a different podcast and we put the actual feed in here. There you go, a bit of technical jargon there for you. Then we'll be back to normal programming on the 8th of January after our 5-day Italy break. Very nice, looking forward to it, with a brand new interview from a psychologist who's an expert in collective leadership and hope.
Leanne ElliottYes, it is a jam-packed Christmas and New Year scheduled, so we're still going to be with you every Tuesday and Thursday all the way through. We're not taking a holiday, you're welcome. We'll be bringing you some lighter seasonal content to keep you company, whether it be on those long drives across continents, those winter dog walks, or for our Australian listeners, There's afternoons, afternoons on the beach.
Al ElliottYeah, you lucky set of— yes. Anyway, for the last time in 2025, it's Leanne's favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottSure is. I'll cue that Christmas jingle.
Al ElliottYou enjoying the Christmas jingle?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I enjoy the bells. Yes.
Al ElliottAnyway, what have you seen this week, Lee?
Leanne ElliottWell, as it is the last This Week in Work of 2025, I wanted to bring a little bit of good news.
Al ElliottYeah, we need some of that.
Leanne ElliottThere's a lot happening this week, and I just just didn't have the energy. So I headed over to positive.news to have a little look.
Al ElliottIs that a website?
Leanne ElliottYeah, it is positive.news. It's brilliant. Not sponsored, just enjoy it. I saw them profiling something called the Top 1% Employer Certification from Escape the City. If you haven't heard of Escape the City, and I hadn't, they're a careers platform that's been around since about 2010, originally founded by Dom Jackman and Ron— Rob, sorry, not Ron, Rob Symington, who basically quit corporate life because they wanted to help— they wanted to help others find work with purpose. They've recently relaunched their whole platform and introduced this certification as a way of basically highlighting organisations that they think are genuinely progressive. So they describe it as a new way to search for purposeful work with AI-powered matching, curated roles, flexible working filters. All very shiny, Al. But the bit that did catch my attention was the certification itself. So Escape says that these employers have passed an in-depth culture audit covering things like pay, inclusive policies, leadership, team support, and reward and recognition. Plus, they gather anonymous employee feedback. So on paper, it's not just kind of the vibes and nice branding. There actually seems to be a bit of science behind it as well. Positive News then went on to highlight 4 organisations on the list, and they're an eclectic bunch. So I thought I'd tell you about them, Al.
Al ElliottYeah, tell me. What's the first one?
Leanne ElliottThe first one is called Sharky and George. Do you remember that cartoon?
Al ElliottSharky and George, crime fighters of the sea.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottMy sister's nickname for a long time was George because my brother thought she looked a bit like George from, you know, the fish. He was an angelfish, I think.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottLittle unkind, I think, to be fair. Bit so.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnyway, so Sharky and George. So is this, tell me, is this like a company that have named themselves Sharky and George, or is it something to do with the original Sharky and George?
Leanne ElliottNo, I think they've just called themselves Sharky and George. It is a UK-based company. Sharky and Fringeman? I know. So yeah, they are kids' party planners. Um, and now run corporate treasure hunts and adventure events. Um, they offer flexible hours, private healthcare, and even call themselves nomad-friendly. So technically you could work from anywhere you wanted in the world.
Al ElliottYeah, from the sea.
Leanne ElliottFrom the sea with Sharky and George. Um, so yeah, we like that. Um, another one highlighted was The Economist Educational Foundation. So this is a female-led charity mixing journalism with education. Staff describe it as purposeful, supportive, and genuinely energising. And of course, we know all the evidence supports that meaningful work and strong leadership tend to show up in engagement and wellbeing, performance, and all the good stuff.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThen we have Rare Recruitment. I thought these were really cool. So they specialise in spotting high-potential candidates that traditional processes miss. So usually things around racial or socioeconomic bias. So very much a call to action from Adam Grant's Hidden Potential theory. What is impressive, a 5th of the Magic Circle trainees now come through Rares. The Magic Circle, basically, it's the word for the top 5 law firms.
Al ElliottOh, I thought it was literally the magic circle.
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottLike they find magicians. Now that would be a niche recruitment agency where we only find magicians.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it would.
Al ElliottBut sorry, the Magic Circle are the top law firms in the world, are they?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo we're all like, what's the one? No, Deloitte's not a law firm. Anyway, so—
Leanne ElliottThe big one.
Al ElliottThe big one. Neither of us can think of one, but yes. Carry on.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, they, inside the company, There's talk of inclusivity, positivity, and they have a 3 PM Friday finish over summer.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottVery nice.
Al ElliottWe like that.
Leanne ElliottAnd finally, the one that was featured, um, was Unifrog. So this is also a careers platform, but it's for students, um, basically starting to navigate life after school. Um, every employee at Unifrog gets £500 a year to spend on training however they choose, and everyone shares in a company-wide bonus.
Al ElliottNice.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, some nice perks there. So in terms of kind of what do I make of all this, I think what's interesting is that Escape the City's whole, whole mission is to help people find their tribe. So it's nice to see that they've designed a way of assessing organisations that they're essentially advertising through their jobs platform and assessing them to see if they are ethical, responsible businesses. But of course, I can't get access to the actual audit without filling it in as a company, and I didn't want to do that because it seems a bit Disingenuous.
Al ElliottDisingenuous. Tipping my hat to that word.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So on paper, it all looks good, Al. Thoughts?
Al ElliottYeah, sounds really good. Sounds really good. And let's be honest, we'd love to say, because we, because we sell workplace culture products, we'd love to say, oh, it's really complicated, but it's freaking not.
Leanne ElliottNo, it's really not.
Al ElliottIt's really not. Just find out what people want and give it to them within reason and just generally don't be a horrible person.
Leanne ElliottPretty much. Pretty much. Yeah. So, I mean, there are other Other platforms out there, various organisations that profess to do similar things. Obviously, we've got the Great Place to Work. Vitality does the British Workplace Awards.
Al ElliottWe've had both of those people on the pod, I think.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so there's lots of things out there, but I think what's slightly different about this one is it seems to be speaking to what people want from a workplace, and particularly our younger, our younger employees, our Gen Z or younger millennials, that it is about this inclusion, it is about freedom, it is about purpose and meaning, which is becoming so much more talked about, I think, when particularly salaries aren't kind of keeping up with cost of living. There needs to be another, another reason to get up and go to work. So, so yeah, I think it's refreshing to see other people trying to raise the bar.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottUm, they're certainly asking about things that make sense— inclusion, leadership development, autonomy, flexibility. Um, so yeah, time will tell, and I think I might get in touch with her. these guys and see if they want to come on. What do you think?
Al ElliottYou should, you should. I like stuff like this.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so yeah, I mean, if you want to find a full list of all 15 organisations that have already been awarded that accolade, uh, then you can go to, uh, Positive News. That's where I saw the original article. And I'll also, also leave a link to Escape the City's website in the show notes. Al, what have you seen?
Al ElliottApple. Now, you know a company, it doesn't normally make a lot of fuss, and suddenly they start making a lot of noise. That unfortunately has Apple right now, in the space of a week, they've waved goodbye to 4 senior leaders, and one of the top designers has jumped ship to Meta, which is Facebook's parent company. That's Jony Ive's, um, replacement. So I'll talk about this guy in a second. Uh, Apple's at the moment is trying to convince the world it has got this plan for AI, although to be honest, I don't know. Um, Siri's big upgrade has been pushed back. Uh, the Vision Pro, you know, that thing that you stick on your face and supposed Yet that doesn't seem to be working very well. So we, I think we just need to ask, is this like the turning point for Apple? Is Apple gonna go down or is someone gonna come in and take over? The key points from this article, which was in CNN, I think, um, we'll put a link in the, in the, in the chart notes. Tell us. No, chart notes is not what I'm looking at. Show notes is chart notes, a very, very different thing. So this guy, Allan Dye, D-Y-E, he was the VP for Human Interface Design He's leaving for Meta. He's basically the new Jony Ive, Jony Ive 5.2. And then a guy called John Giannandrea. Sorry, John, I can't, I can't say your surname, but he was the SVP for machine learning and AI. He's gone. Lisa Jackson's gone. Kate Adams is gone. Jeff Williams is gone. The rising speculation is Tim Cook might be preparing to step aside, but there is also one—
Leanne ElliottHow old is Tim Cook now? Like 102? He's been around forever.
Al ElliottHe has, hasn't he? I think it's literally— it was Jobs, then Cook, wasn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think so.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah. So he's probably been around for a good 15 years. Now the question is, is he looking— is he thinking about stepping aside or is he being forced to step aside? And there's some reasons why he might be forced to step aside. Again, the main one is around AI. Siri's next generation upgrade delayed again. This was supposed to make Siri— the thing is, when Siri first came out, we're all like, oh, isn't this cool? It's quite— and now I've Never use it, or you only use it to set a timer when you're cooking, don't you? Yeah, that's it. Because compared to everything else, it's a bit rubbish. The updates—the iPhone, the Mac, the iPad—all been kind of minimal and a bit meh this year. Meanwhile, Meta is doing some cool things. Google—wow, what a come! There's the comeback story for you. Google, when they first released the AI stuff, was a load of trash, and now they—I think Gemini is. top performing out of all of them.
Leanne ElliottI've recently got into Gemini.
Al ElliottTell me, what's your thoughts as a new Gemini-er?
Leanne ElliottI think it's good. Yeah. I think it's very good at kind of taking stuff and condensing it and mimicking tone. So for example, not everything I put online, but for our This Week in Work, for our introduction bits, because it's very structured, I'll give it to Chat or sometimes Claude and say, can you just gimme kind of a rough introduction and I'll kind of tweak it. I struggled with both ChatGPT and Claude, went to Gemini, first one out, bosh.
Al ElliottWell, I think the thing is with Gemini, Google, they already have a database of everything that's on the internet. So it's like ChatGPT and Claude, Anthropic's Claude, have to scrape stuff and they're getting in trouble. I know there's a class suit. What's it called when you do an action?
Leanne ElliottSuit.
Al ElliottSuit, that's the word. I put an extra E on there, um, against Anthropic for, uh, for scraping from books and stuff. All the authors are coming for them.
Leanne ElliottI love it.
Al ElliottWhereas Google already paid all that fine when they did Google Books. So they've already got access to all the books. They've got access to basically everything. And more importantly, they've got access to every single Google search that anyone has ever done.
Leanne ElliottIt's a lot of searches.
Al ElliottThat's a lot of searches. And also a lot, they know a lot about, um, about what we actually want. So, I mean, I think the biggest thing, as I said before here, is Alan Dye. This is the VP for— let me just double-check my notes— he was the VP for Human Interface Design. He's now gone to Meta. That's the big, big thing, because he was basically the guy who shaped the look and feel of Apple's products when Ive left. Meta wants him to work on the new sort of wave of computing. Meanwhile, Jony Ive was working with OpenAI on the hardware. It just feels— I know, it just feels a little bit weird. Once one person actually said, one Apple executive Zach even said that people may not need an iPhone at all in 10 years. Interesting.
Leanne ElliottInteresting. Why? What we have instead?
Al ElliottI think we're just different surfaces. They call it, they call it Surface. So you might have an Apple Watch. You might have, I've always wanted, you know, you know, you get like rings for your finger. I've always wanted a ring for your thumb and a ring for your little finger. So you can hold your, oh, I'm doing it on, hold your hand up in like an old-fashioned phone way and just talk, talk to your hand. And it's got a ring for your, for your thumb. For the speaker and a ring for it.
Leanne ElliottOr have glasses or like—
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, exactly. And it does seem like the way we're going.
Leanne ElliottWearables.
Al ElliottWearables is exactly right. So I mean, I don't know, Lee, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottI've had a question mark over Apple for some time because let's be honest, the iPhone hasn't really changed in the past 10 years.
Al ElliottNope.
Leanne ElliottLike, it's got a better camera, that's nice, but now it's so good that when it comes with a better camera, it's like you can barely tell the difference. Siri is rubbish.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottIt's, it's, it's expensive.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd it's kind of like, well, the only reason I continue to use Apple is that I've tried other phones and just now can't work them because I've had an iPhone for the past 15 years and I use Mac, so I need them. I like that they're integrated and they can just bounce between each other. And it's just Android is really rubbish. It's like a phone operating system, so you kind of stuck into Apple. But I think, I don't know, it's always a hard act to follow, isn't it? Somebody who completely, basically, like Steve Jobs, invented something that is now such a significant part of our lives and how we operate in the world. It's a hard act to follow. So whatever you're gonna do, it's gonna be compared potentially. And I don't know, I don't know. I also think as well in this game, it's just all about the money, isn't it? Yeah.
Al ElliottWell, that's it, because Cook has been a great custodian of Apple, turned it into a 4— well, it was already a very, very valuable company, but now it's $4 trillion. It's like one of the most valuable companies in the world. Their stock went up 12— let me just double-check my notes— 12% this year. But that— but it went up 30% the year before.
Leanne ElliottRight. So slowed growth this year.
Al ElliottYep. I believe that Warren Buffett, Warren All-You-Can-Eat Buffet, I believe he sold his Apple shares. So he's out of Apple now. Um, and I just think that it's been run by an accountant, which is fine because it's added a huge amount of value to the company. But like you say, nothing very innovative. And also just recently, like 2 weeks ago, um, Android— I don't know if it was actually Android or someone who works in Android, uh, reverse engineered the AirPlay so that now from an Android you can AirPlay to your Mac. Um, so yeah.
Leanne ElliottReally?
Al ElliottI think, I'm not saying it's the beginning of the end for Apple, but I think that something needs to change quite dramatically.
Leanne ElliottBeginning of a bumpy road.
Al ElliottBeginning of a bumpy road. Anyway, Lee, what else have you seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottI've seen some new research this week, Al. It asks basically, are we doing enough for people who've served our country? So people in the military, when they leave said military and build civilian careers, how are we helping them in that transition?
Al ElliottI don't know the answer to that.
Leanne ElliottI didn't. I didn't.
Al ElliottI bet you know someone who does. I do.
Leanne ElliottI do. So this was research from James Hardy, who is a veteran himself. He worked with Dr. Hayley Lewis.
Al ElliottHey, we know her.
Leanne ElliottWe do, friend of the show, on his master's dissertation at Birkbeck. So this is another MSc dissertation that I wanted to share because, as I said before, and I'll say it again, these students are asking some really great questions of looking at real-world problems that we just haven't solved yet. So his research was titled Thank You for Your Service: An Exploration of Liminality and Leadership Value for UK Veterans.
Al ElliottWhat the hell does liminality mean?
Leanne ElliottI'll come on to that. So James basically interviewed 9 veterans who'd been senior military leaders, all had worked in civilian jobs for the last 2 years, and through a process called thematic analysis, which is basically when we look for patterns in what people said, Um, he basically found 3 major themes in terms of liminality, which is basically that really uncomfortable period between change. So that transition period, and that can be physical, it could be psychological, it could be metaphorical, but this whole transition period.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottOkay. So one theme that James found, he called Lost in Transition. So veterans reported feeling stuck between 2 worlds. They described leaving tight-knit military communities and entering workplaces marked by individualism and job insecurity. One participant called Peter said, it wasn't just me leaving the military, it was the family leaving the military. So, it's a, it's a key thing, isn't it, that we often don't think about really, is that that transition affects the entire family. We're talking new neighbourhoods, new schools, new ways of working.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThe second theme James called leadership is a So what James basically found was a big disconnect. So veterans saw leadership as a collective success, taking care of people and building teams, whereas this wasn't really what was reflected in corporate life. So one veteran, Andrew, shared a story from Afghanistan. After their building was hit by a rocket, a team member was understandably terrified and unable to do their job, but instead of barking orders, orders, Andrew spent time reassuring him, helping him through the fear. 20 years later, they met again by chance, and the man still remembered that kindness.
Al ElliottOh, that's nice. See, be nice, people. Be kind.
Leanne ElliottBut in civilian jobs, veterans were often hired as individual contributors and working alone with no one to lead. Another highlight of the research and something interesting interesting that was pointed out by James is that businesses spend £360 billion globally on leadership development, yet military leadership is often stereotyped as just shouting orders. When veterans arrived with real leadership experience, companies didn't know how to use it. The 3rd theme James called politics, power, and network. So veterans expressed shock at workplace politics. Um, so there was even a story of One veteran who was out jogging, just jogging on his downtime, a colleague stopped him mid-run and basically just gave him some blunt advice and told him it's all about the politics. Even the bottom line is secondary.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottHe'd be like, dude, I'm on a jog. What's wrong with you?
Al ElliottBut then at the same time, I kind of would want to know that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, it's, it is, it is. I think it is just a very harsh introduction as to how differently civilian or corporate or private workplaces operate. James also found that veterans had to learn new rules. So military networks exist to accomplish missions together, right? But corporate networks often exist for personal advancement, which we hear a lot about in the surgery, do we not? Yes, we do. So yeah, so very different behaviours, very different purposes, and probably no surprise, female veterans face extra challenges as well. Um, so yes, I'm saying that gender had been an issue from day one, and they dealt with discrimination as a veteran and as women. So the key findings were basically that veterans are facing stereotypes and discrimination when transitioning to civilian careers. Military leadership skills aren't well understood or utilized. Veterans are often being hired for technical expertise rather than leadership capability. Gender creates these additional barriers, and the transition affects entire families. So James's research concluded that despite veterans' proven leadership capabilities and team-working skills, civilian organisations struggle to integrate and value their experience effectively. I mean, yeah, our thoughts.
Al ElliottWow. I mean, I've known nothing of this world, so I genuinely don't have thoughts. This is the, you know, this is something which I don't feel like I could even comment on.
Leanne ElliottWell, that's okay, because I've actually got a little clip from James. I spoke to him and he was kind of to send over some reflections on his research.
Al ElliottMy name is James Hardy, and I completed my MSc in Organisational Psychology at Birkbeck in 2023. For my research project, I explored the career transitions of UK military veterans using thematic analysis, and in the role of a veteran insider myself, I wanted to understand more about how leadership capacity is really valued. And this was a distinct group in society that is often revered. And this matters right now for other diverse groups. In today's workplace, we are questioning command and control, dealing with toxic cultures, navigating hybrid teams, and yet some still cling to outdated ideas of what leadership should look like and its confusion with management and management systems. In this qualitative process, I asked about leadership value in new careers and the challenges faced by these people who might be remembered on Sunday and treated differently on Monday. The 10 people I interviewed were experienced leaders, people who had commanded, influenced, and served under pressure, and had successfully changed to civilian careers. The veterans I spoke with were often misunderstood by their new civilian colleagues, who sometimes assumed their leadership would be rigid or overly hierarchical. The reality was that they had deep insights into shared leadership, ethical decision-making, Influence and followership. The leadership stories they told were personal and kind. My research reminded me that real leadership is relational, not positional. It's about creating trust, not just giving direction. Leadership is not so different in different places, but it may need to be adapted. So how do we design work so that more people can lead well together? Well, we might consider our epistemic values. and how we know more closely in our relationships and our judgement of others.
Leanne ElliottI think the main thing here, Al, is it's a theme that we talk about a lot in businesses, in civilian life anyway, in that we're very focused on individual problems and we're not dealing with the systemic problems. And this is true in this really significant career transition from military into civilian life. And I think what's really sad is that the things that the veterans were talking about and that James identified as things that would make a difference aren't outrageous. They're not expensive. They're not beyond the experience of an organisation that would have anyway with any employee. So they're asking things like better mentoring, work experience potentially before leaving the military, coaching and structured onboarding. Honestly, the amount of problems that could be solved by structured onboarding. Recognition. I think that's my word of 2025, right? So it's not about praise. It's about that acknowledgement of what people can bring to a role, and how their individual and unique experience can, can really add value. And I think this is a real insight from James's dissertation that stood out for me that kind of sums everything up. If organisations focused less on developing individual leaders, and more on fixing the systems around them, both performance and wellbeing would radically improve.
Al ElliottBravo, James. Bravo. I'm guessing the link will be in the show notes.
Leanne ElliottA link to James's LinkedIn profile will be in show notes. And I'm sure if you get in touch and if you want to read his original research, he will share that with you. Um, and we will be sharing more studies like this, um, in the new year because these are the, the real human research stories that I think are full of passion and full of just a genuine drive to want to make workplaces better. Um, so if you just finished your MSc, PhD in business or occupational psychology and want to get your findings on the show, get in touch. We would We'd love to feature your work.
Al ElliottBeautiful, beautiful. Okay, so I think we're going to take a short break. After that, we've got Truth or Lie, where we dispel popular myths. And we've got, we've got kind of a lighthearted one, I think, this week. And then we've got the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. We'll see you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. So of course you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. Keep that in. Hey, welcome back. It is time for Truth or Lie. This is the myth-busting weekly segment where we take a big psychological claim and say, is it true or is it a lie? You'll remember we've done sleep, we've done birth order, we've done lie detection, we've done power posing. This week, a little more lighthearted— lighthearted? Lighthearted. We're asking a question that shows up every single year. Is the Christmas spirit an actual psychological thing? The question is, does it have any scientific basis or are we just imagining it? Lee, thoughts?
Leanne ElliottYeah. So is the Christmas spirit an actual psychological thing and does it impact our mood and behaviour? Excellent question. And you know what? I was genuinely surprised by how much research there is into the psychology of Christmas. Yeah. What a joyful thing to do. Yeah. I think I might have missed my calling. Go, go back and do a PhD in Christmas.
Al ElliottOh, that'd be nice. PhD in Christmas. I'm, I'm trying to think of like some kind of pun and I can't. Carry on.
Leanne ElliottWe, we've actually just fun fact, Al, edited it out. We've just spent the last 60 seconds trying to figure out a pun and we couldn't. So, um, if you think of one, get in touch. We'd love to know.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, Christmas, Christmas spirit. Let's start with case 4, Al, shall we? Um, there is research that shows Christmas does reliably change people's emotions.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSo several studies show a clear seasonal pattern in mood. So one large survey published in Applied Research in Quality of Life examined what people actually experience at Christmas, so not what they say Christmas is about, but how it makes them feel. The researchers found consistent emotional shifts, including stronger feelings of togetherness, more nostalgia, a rise in positive effects, so just feeling a bit happier, and for many people, a meaningful boost in life satisfaction.
Al ElliottNice.
Leanne ElliottI know. The key point of this research was that these emotional changes weren't random. They were tied to specific Christmas-related experiences, such as spending time with loved ones, familiar rituals, Shared meals and moments of reflection. In other words, the glow was measurable. Secondly, people behave differently at Christmas, and we can actually explain why. So another study looking looked at Christmas consumption patterns. So buying stuff, people found that people weren't simply buying because of more commercial pressure; they were buying because it was tied to a symbolic social meaning. So basically, that giving gifts. Or hosting dinners or helping people decorate. They were all behaviours connected to basically us signalling care and generosity and belonging, which when we get back also makes us feel very good. So researchers argue that these rituals tap into deeper psychological motives which strengthen relationships, again express identity, so who we are as a person, and reinforce group membership. So when people say that they do feel more generous at Christmas, the research suggests that they actually do. And Christmas nostalgia boosts wellbeing. So I thought it's quite an interesting interesting paper looked at how people think about Christmas memories and found that recalling past holidays increased feelings of meaning, comfort, and emotional security. And it wasn't childhood specifically, as you might think it would be. It was a sense of continuity. So this is what we do every year. Um, so yeah, psychologists class that as a self-regulation strategy, which basically means ways that we can, we can help stabilize our own mood, reduce loneliness, and, and again reinforce identity in terms of our Or the way we feel about ourselves and think about ourselves. And all of this nostalgia can be triggered by things that might seem quite frivolous: music, films, again, rituals, food, the smell of pine or cinnamon. That's my one. It's always my first thing is I change my air fresheners over to like an apple spice or something.
Al ElliottShe does do that, listener. She does.
Leanne ElliottI do. So yeah, there is some good evidence that says that the Christmas spirit is real and has a positive effect. But of course, there's always another side to the coin. So in terms of against, Christmas can, as I'm sure will be no surprise to anybody listening, can increase stress.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSo, there's a paper which I thought was one of the best named papers ever. It was called What Makes for a Merry Christmas?
Al ElliottOh, that's nice.
Leanne ElliottI know. And it basically found 2 groups. So, people who experience Christmas as joyful and Christmas who experienced— or people who experience Christmas as stressful. And the stressed group scored higher on financial pressure, workload, emotional demands, and family conflict. So, for them, wellbeing did actually decrease during the holiday period. So, it's not that Christmas spirit is automatic, it heavily depends, as you suggested out on personal circumstances. Materialism is also linked to lower wellbeing. So, several studies have found that when people focus on buying stuff, so spending gifts, then their mood actually tended to decline. And there was— this was a study from the Journal of Happiness Studies that basically said that Christmas values that emphasise family, reflection, and spirituality predict higher wellbeing, whereas values centred on present status and spending predicted lower wellbeing. So the whole commercial Christmas that can get a bit icky, um, yeah, it does. It dampens our Christmas spirit and does reduce our levels of wellbeing. Um, another interesting one, apparently there's some research that says that social comparison can peak at Christmas.
Al ElliottWhat do you mean by social comparison?
Leanne ElliottSo basically comparing myself to other people.
Al ElliottOkay, right. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottLike scrolling Instagram going, oh, look at Look at them, they've got it so great.
Al ElliottGenerally around Christmas time, then you can, you find yourself comparing yourself more. Well, not you, but one might find oneself. Okay. Yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottExactly. Yeah. Comparing yourself to other people. And particularly with social media, of course, it's become even more apparent. So one study on holiday wellbeing noted that comparing your Christmas, so your home, your family, your decorations, your presents, your plans with idealised versions, Which we see all the time, don't we? Increases loneliness and lowers mood. So again, it's all about connection, really. And I think this is what it comes down to in terms of Christmas spirit, is if we're getting that connection from our friends and family, even from strangers in terms of our giving and generosity, then yes, the Christmas spirit is real. Christmas can shift mood. It can increase connection and wellbeing. and help us be more emotionally stable, but it isn't automatic and it depends what Christmas looks like, um, for you really. Um, so yeah, the Christmas spirit is real, but context is very, very important.
Al ElliottYeah, interesting, interesting. There's a couple of things you said in there— traditions. Do you know, it makes me smile because at your parents' house we have, um, we're probably the same as most couples, we alternate between parents. Um, this year it's a, it's a Gopsall, which is Leanne's maiden name, a Gopsall Christmas at And so when we go there, your dad always brings through in the morning a glass of sherry, is it?
Leanne ElliottYes. Yep.
Al ElliottWhich I'm not convinced that it's a new bottle. I'm pretty sure it's just, it just gets used once a year. So it's probably about 10 years old at this stage, but it's not a question of going, oh, I could really do with a sherry. It's— sorry, by the way, if you don't drink, this podcast is mainly about drinking, isn't it? I'm sorry about that. But that does make me smile because that's like kind of a little bit of a hug of like, oh, this is lovely. This is lovely. So there's those traditions. The other thing is that I, it really doesn't even give me the ick. It really makes me angry. The whole like, I'm getting for Christmas and this is what I want for Christmas and is my list. And you know, they, my husband only spent £500 on me, whereas I spent £300, £550 on them. And it's like bollocks. Sorry, I got that angry. I banged my microphone. You don't do that. To be honest, like secret, Leanne and I don't really buy presents for each other at Christmas.
Leanne ElliottWe don't.
Al ElliottBecause our presence is present enough. But then we also do drive about 5,000 kilometres round trip. from Mostar in Bosnia-Herzegovina back to the UK to go and see people and come back and everything. So we do spend a bit of money on that. But even if we did, like, I know for Leanne's birthday, I can spend anywhere between £30 and £130. It doesn't really matter. It matters what, whether I bought her a hat that I think she's gonna like or one of your favourite things was socks, wasn't it? I bought you some big fluffy socks.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah.
Al ElliottI think they were about, I think they were about £6.
Leanne ElliottYeah. I think it's the meaning to it, isn't it, that makes a difference. And I think this is a key thing that if you are feeling this pressure, Is that knowing that, even if they don't necessarily realise it, all these material things doesn't have a positive impact on wellbeing. So you'd be better getting something that's really thoughtful. Maybe look at some past pictures and print them off and frame them. Just those little more personalised gifts, I think, are going to be much, much better. I think similarly, I think as well as just engaging in those traditions. So if you're having to like be You know, if money's a bit tight and you're looking at your social calendar and going, I don't think I can do everything this year, it's picking the ones that are, have always been a tradition. We've done it every year since I was 10. Maybe don't, maybe don't skip that one because the impact that it's going to have on your wellbeing and the wellbeing of other people is going to be quite significant. And you know what, if you are going to compare yourself to others, how about you maybe look a bit more openly and generously and compare yourself to people who may not be doing quite as well at this time of year, who might be struggling, who would really do with you phoning them up and going, do you want to come around for a cup of tea? I've made some mince pies. People who might be isolated, maybe they don't live close to their family or they're not, um, they don't have a relationship with their family. People who have experienced grief, um, anyone that you know financially it's been a hard year. You know, there's, there's gonna be people out there who are gonna, gonna not be feeling great At the moment. So anything you could do, those just small acts of inclusion, getting someone around for a cuppa, checking in. Yeah, it's gonna make a massive difference, more of a difference than you know.
Al ElliottSo to summarise, the Christmas spirit does exist. It's true that it exists. However, it affects people in different ways. So it might be the Christmas spirit lifts one person up and they're like having an amazing time, and then it might actually decrease the happiness of someone else.
Leanne ElliottYes, particularly if that person doesn't have a very strong social support network, has had a particularly challenging year financially or in terms of grief, then yeah, it could be that the Christmas spirit isn't going to have the best impact. So, it's important to look out for those people and give them some love.
Al ElliottYeah, just be nice people. Okay, that was lovely. That was lovely.
Leanne ElliottMerry Christmas, everyone.
Al ElliottMerry Christmas. So, we've got— so, that's the end of this segment for this year. We're going to pick it up again around about the second week in January. January when we come back. We are now on to our final Workplace Surgery of the year. This is the world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery where I put questions to Leanne. If you've got a question for Leanne, then check the show notes, send them over. We love, we love it when we get questions which are a bit tough. We also love them when we get juicy questions like, like, has it gone out yet? No, right.
Leanne ElliottWe've picked our Workplace Surgery question of the year that's coming in our first highlights episode.
Al ElliottYeah, which will be next week, this time next week, I think. And it is, it's a good one. It is a good one. Okay, so on to question number 1. Is it unprofessional to skip the office Christmas party? We don't have an office Christmas party. Well, we do. There's just the two of us.
Leanne ElliottWe do!
Al ElliottYeah, but it's not professional.
Leanne ElliottIt's less of a party and more of a pint, isn't it?
Al ElliottHi, Al and Leanne. This year's been— oh, I'm sorry for laughing now. I feel really bad now. Hi, Al and Leanne. This year's been tough. I was passed over for promotion. They said there was no roles available, only to create more of those exact roles. and give them to someone else. At the same time, we've been handed more work. It's been split across 2 teams, no extra pay, very little support. Now the office Christmas party is coming up. It's during work hours, so it's technically optional but very much expected. The thing is, I just don't have it in me. I'm exhausted, demotivated, and genuinely don't feel like celebrating with the very people who've made work so difficult this year. I told my manager I wasn't planning to attend, and he said it might Look unprofessional and hurt my chances of promotion in the future. Is that a real risk, Leanne? Should I suck it up and go, or is it okay to sit this one out?
Leanne ElliottThere's so many clues in here, um, that you are just on your, on your last fudge in terms of this job.
Al ElliottYour fudge basket is empty.
Leanne ElliottVery much so. You've been passed over for promotion, you've been given more work, less pay or no extra pay, little support. These are all things that that are going to get you on the fast track to disengagement. It sounds like you're already there. So, I don't, I can't imagine this is an organisation you're going to want to hold on to very closely in 2026. So, I'd imagine you're already looking for another job if you can. Do you know what? The only, I would say go to the Christmas party.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottI would say find somebody on your team, a work colleague that you like, and go, I really don't want to go.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottBut I'm gonna show face, show willing. My manager said it might hurt my chance of the future, so I'm, I'm gonna go and just say hi and let's go together so we've got an ally. Let's go, whatever it is, have a drink, have some food, leave at the earliest possible opportunity with the excuse that it's during working hours. You're currently handling more work than you ever have before that's split across 2 teams. So, I'm, I'd love to stay a bit longer, but loath to do, guys. You know what it's like. Gotta, gotta get back to it. And then get out. Probably, I don't know, depends what the party is, but I'm thinking like an hour to an hour and a half should probably do it. And if you've got yourself a little wing person there, it's just going to help. I don't think you should go to suck up. I think you just go chat to people that you come across, make sure your manager sees you, and just make sure you get in the eye range of whoever the important people are that might want to clock you at this event. Because who knows if it's going to hurt your chances in the future, and even though then you might not see much of a future here. Who knows what's going to happen with the economy next year? There's rumblings of all sorts at the minute. Um, it might be that the job market is really, really tough. So, with that in mind, you don't want to make it harder than it already is. So, there might be a little element of just playing some office politics just to not make your life worse as you're starting to transition out of the organisation, would be my thought.
Al ElliottVery diplomatic. And it's probably the most, the very sensible thing to do. Just, yeah, like you say, turn up. And that's a good idea about finding an ally because I am incredibly socially awkward. And so whenever I go somewhere, I always like hang on to Leanne or find someone who I know.
Leanne ElliottSame.
Al ElliottYeah. Like, I don't really want to go, but generally when you do go, you do have a, you know, you have a good time. And even if you don't, like Leanne said, you've shown your face. So. Sounds like decent advice. It's not probably not the answer you wanted to hear. You wanted us to go, no, it's fine. Just stay. Just don't go. But—
Leanne ElliottBut go with a plan. Yes. Have an ally. Set yourself a time period. Get your face in front of the people who need to see you and then get out.
Al ElliottYes, absolutely. Okay. So on to question number 2. Again, occupational health. Now, we had a few of these the last few weeks. We've got the lovely Harry from Smart Clinic who's been answering these for us. So here is the question. And it's actually from, I believe, an employer. Yes, from an employer, isn't it? So we've got a long-serving employee who's been struggling with chronic back issues. They raised a few concerns about the working environment. They've asked more than once to be referred to occupational health, and we did eventually make a referral, which resulted in some recommended adjustments. Since then, we've tried to implement what we can, but the employee has now submitted another formal request to see OH again. My question is, from a legal standpoint, are we obliged to approve an OH— that's occupational health— referral every time they ask for one, or can we do it internally? Now, this person says, I want to do right by them, but also need clarity on what's required versus what's considered best practice. Lee.
Leanne ElliottStraight to Harry Kramer at SmartClinic. This one's right up his street.
Al ElliottThere is absolutely no law here that states that you have to oblige. And if their request isn't reasonable, then you could decline this if you, if you feel like it's justified to decline that request. It may be, for example, that they've only just had an OH assessment. It could be that they've had an OH assessment, they don't really like the advice, so they've asked for another one. As an employer, I certainly wouldn't be agreeing to it on that basis. It's not a case of just keep going until you get an OH report that you like. So, if you feel like the better approach would be to manage it internally first, yeah, go for it. Absolutely fine. However, if there's been a sensible length of time between the initial assessment and the latest request, then cost aside, why wouldn't you make a new OH referral?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIt may be that there's a new health condition or a new diagnosis that that employee would like to discuss, but they prefer to discuss it with a clinical professional directly rather than with yourselves. All it'll do from your point of view is provide more expert clinical advice for you to base your decisions on. And frankly, it may just prevent you from inadvertently discriminating against that employee on the grounds of disability, which at this stage you might not even know much about. So, in that sense, it could be helpful for you too.
Leanne ElliottLovely simple answer there. Do you have to approve an occupational health referral? No.
Al ElliottBrilliant.
Leanne ElliottLove that. Obviously, some do want to, but, but yeah, I think again, it's with these, it's kind of what you have to do and what you want to do as an ethical, responsible employer to help this person. But yeah, I think Harry answered that perfectly. Thank you so much. I will leave a link to Harry and Smart Clinic in the show notes should you want to learn more about them.
Al ElliottOn to question number 3. Is my manager quietly sabotaging me? No, no, no. I'm fairly new to my role. I'm filling a post they struggled to hire for, and while I may not have all the official experience, I'm the only one doing the job right now, and I think I'm doing it quite well. Well done. Yes, I think you're doing well too. A while back, my manager told me I lacked experience and suggested I apply for a less senior role. Since then, I've noticed a pattern. I raise concerns, offer fixes, suggest plans, and they get brushed off And then reappear later with his name attached. Oh yes, sneaky, sneaky snake. Same ideas just coming from him at the time. I feel like I'm second-guessing everything. Am I overthinking this, Leanne? Is it just my ego, or do I start need to protect myself with paper trails and written records?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottYes, you do.
Leanne ElliottYes, you do, friend.
Al ElliottThis sounds like a dodgy situation.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Um, oh, do you know what? I think there's a lot of managers out, out there, um, who aren't probably doing with the intention necessarily, but are doing things that are just having a really bad impact on people. There's a few things here that I think we need to unpick out.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottYou said you're quite new into this job. It's a bit senior for you. You were put into it as a placeholder, but time marches on. So, I think it's understandable that your manager might be asking questions about your capability or keeping a close eye on things. And I think as well, at the beginning of your career, there is an element of, more senior people taking credit for your ideas. I think in my first 5, 6 years, I'm not sure I ever worked in a company that didn't do that to some extent.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottI think that's kind of the way it sadly is for a lot of managers, because they misunderstand that actually the point of being a good manager is to make sure that everyone on their team is smashing it very visibly. So, there is an element of that. I think there's understandably beef here because you're doing the job and your manager, as Bruce Lee suggested, that you look for a less senior role. And this is very, very hard. And I've actually been in this scenario when I've been in a role and it's been suggested to me that I might be better in a less senior position. And I said, no, I'll be fine. I wasn't fine. I was eventually, but not in the short term.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo, I think there is an element here of your manager might actually just be wanting to protect you, to not want to stretch you too far to the point where things could break or you're out of your depth. It might be that a case of you're, you know, you're almost ready for this role but just not yet. My thought would be leave the credit thing aside for the time being, but yes, absolutely start protecting yourself in terms of paper trails and written records on everything. And appreciate the experience, the stretch experience you're getting. I would ask for a one-to-one with your manager and talk about more things like, I'm still in this role, I have been for Um, a few months. I think some things I'm doing really well at, other things I think are clear development areas. You see that as well, which is why you suggest I looked at a less senior role. Can you tell me from a mental perspective, what can I be working on to be ready for this role? What could I be working on to mean that my performance is improving whilst I'm in this role? Are there things that you think I should be looping you into much more frequently because higher-risk areas, just leading with openness, with curiosity, and from the perspective of, I'm in the role, there's still nobody else to fill it, I want the role. We both recognise that I might be lacking in capability and experience in some places. Can we put together a development plan that ideally would keep me in this role long-term, or will allow me to stay, to step back into this role in 6 months' time? And I think having that conversation is really gonna give you an idea of where the intentions of your manager lie.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIf they're like, yep, absolutely, let's talk about this, we can, we can look at this aspect of your development, we can look at this, we'll check in weekly, blah, blah, blah, then you know you've got a really supportive manager who just thinks right now you're a little bit out of your depth. If they brush it off and just say, no, you're not ready, I've not got the time to do that, whatever other excuse, then I would think that, that perhaps, yes, your manager is quietly sabotaging you for whatever reason. But I think having this conversation will give you more information and also hopefully a way forward with your manager to develop you into this senior role in a way that is more sustainable and successful.
Al ElliottYeah, well said. Well said. Rarely, there's very few people in the world who are truly evil. Most people are just doing the best they can with the information they've got. And this sounds to me like, yes, they probably are screwing you over a little bit. In fact, I'm sure they almost certainly are. But Think about the motivation. Why are they doing that? Probably to cover their own arse or because they're intimidated by you. Yeah. There you go.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Gather more data. I think we're both saying.
Al ElliottGather more data or just send some, some dog poo in a box to this house. Okay. Right. So that is all for now. Remember that our holiday content, which we're calling it because we're podcasters, we're broadcasters, we call it holiday content. Basically, we've got a load of nonsense starting this Thursday. We're bringing you our 2025 highlights We bring you expert predictions and lots more. And don't forget, you still got time to enter the competition offered by last week's guest, Rob Kalvaroski. He's giving away 6 weeks of coaching plus his book to one amazingly lucky listener, and 10 more are gonna get the book plus a session with him.
Leanne ElliottYeah, you can go to robkalvaroski.com/reason. I will leave that link in the show notes to get the Find Your Reason tool and enter the draw. You've got until Christmas Day to enter, so time is ticking. Um, and honestly, even if you don't win, get the tool. It's really good. It will help you start doing some work that's gonna really help you in January 2026. It's gonna be here before we know it. Uh, and make sure you don't miss Thursday's episode. As Al said, we'll be getting into our Christmas and New Year groove.
Al ElliottThat concludes our business. We will see you very, very soon. Bye-bye.