Episode 278 · 24 February 2026 · 53:56
Gen-Z Office trends, unlimited holiday leave and silent disengagement. PLUS! Do people really leave managers, not jobs?
Gen-Z Office trends, unlimited holiday leave and silent disengagement. PLUS! Do people really leave managers, not jobs?
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Intro and this week in work
news roundup#intro#weekly-news#workplace
Story 1: The rise of silent disengagement
news roundup#silent-disengagement#employee-engagement#workplace-culture
Story 2: Gen Z leading the return to the office
news roundup#gen-z#return-to-office#workplace-trends
Story 3: Why the last stretch feels hardest
news roundup#productivity#motivation#work-psychology
Truth or Lie: People don't leave bad jobs, they leave bad managers
truth or lie#bad-managers#employee-retention#leadership
Workplace Surgery: Is unlimited holiday worth it?
workplace surgery#unlimited-holiday#benefits#workplace-policy
Workplace Surgery: Lifting morale after a draining year
workplace surgery#morale#team-culture#employee-wellbeing
Workplace Surgery: The '30-second' interview
workplace surgery#interviewing#hiring#recruitment
Show notes
Silent Disengagement, Gen Z's Office Comeback & Do People Really Leave Managers?
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) unpack the "silent disengagement" trend and whether it's really new or just a fresh label for an old problem. Then they look at the surprising data on Gen Z leading the charge back to the office, and the psychology behind why the final stretch of any project feels hardest. Plus, in Truth or Lie: do people really leave managers, not jobs?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. The rise of "silent disengagement" Is office culture dying, or is it just getting quieter? We look at silent disengagement, where employees do the work but mentally pull back — speaking less in meetings and avoiding new projects. Leanne argues this isn't a new remote-work problem, but a long-standing issue of employees not feeling valued or challenged. Source →
2. Gen Z: leading the charge back to the office? Forget the lazy stereotypes. New data suggests Gen Z is actually leading the return to the office — for social connection and development. We share the story of a 24-year-old commuting four hours a day just to be in the room. It turns out different life stages need different work models — and flexibility increases engagement for everyone. Source →
3. Why the "last stretch" feels the hardest Ever noticed how the final 10% of a project feels more draining than the first 90%? A new study in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology explains that fatigue heightens as we become more aware of the effort we've already invested. The fix? Zoom out and frame the task as part of a bigger goal. Read the paper → BPS Digest →
🧠 Truth or Lie: "People Don't Leave Bad Jobs, They Leave Bad Managers"
It's one of the most common beliefs in business. But is it actually true? Leanne digs into the research from Gallup, McKinsey, and Facebook to find out. While poor leadership dramatically increases the odds of someone quitting, they reveal the other factors that actually drove the Great Resignation — and the nuance that makes this saying more complicated than it seems.
Verdict: True — but with a smidge of nuance.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Unlimited holiday: Is it a brilliant trust-building exercise or a recipe for anxiety and "leavism"?
- Lifting morale: How do you rebuild energy in a team that's flat after a draining year of changes and stress?
- The "30-second" interview: What do you do when you know a candidate isn't right within seconds of meeting them?
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottGood news everybody, it's only 23 days until spring.
Al ElliottYay!
Leanne ElliottBad news though, it's going to be the worst 23 days of winter.
Al ElliottOoh, you spoil everything.
Leanne ElliottSorry. New research explains why the final stretch of anything tedious like winter feels harder than the beginning and what you can do about it.
Al ElliottNow we keep hearing about Gen Z and how they don't want to work in office, but one 24-year-old is commuting 4 hours a day just to be in the office, and she's actually not alone. So are young workers finally leading the charge back into the office?
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, you've heard it a thousand times, people don't leave bad jobs, they leave bad managers. But does the research actually back that up, or is there something else that drives us to quit? I've done a little research and I've got an answer.
Al ElliottAnd in the Workplace Surgery, is unlimited holiday brilliant or just confusing? One business owner's not sure if it's genuinely working or just sounds good on paper.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner, and I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to.
Leanne ElliottAnd my name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist, and I'm here to answer them. And together we help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWe'll be right back after a quick word from our lovely sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation, into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello. Hello. Welcome back. Welcome back, Leigh. I've got— I need to tell you about what happened this morning because it was a bit weird. But before we do, just a big thank you to Natalie Hamner. She helped us If you've heard me introducing myself slightly differently and Leanne introducing herself slightly differently, it's all down to Natalie Hamner. She was the one who suggested that we did it. So, uh, thank you, Natalie.
Leanne ElliottThank you, Natalie.
Al ElliottSo I've got to tell you, right? So this morning, you know some of this story, you don't know all of it. We, if you don't know, listener, we live in Bosnia and Herzegovina, specifically Herzegovina, which is down very near the Croatian border. Um, it's kind of like, it's kind of like going back in time sometimes. It is a lovely, lovely place. I was driving back from taking the dogs for a walk this morning. This, uh, this older man, older gentleman flagged me down and I was like, what? And one thing which is, have you noticed this in, in, uh, particularly in the Balkans, is when someone wants to say, you know, in the UK we say come here, we would lift our hand up and we'd, we'd beckon someone towards us. In the Balkans they do it the other way around, put their hand down and beckon towards you. Have you ever seen that?
Leanne ElliottI've not noticed.
Al ElliottWell, that's what he did. So I stopped thinking, oh my goodness, is everything all right? Is there someone falling down the well? He said to me in Bosnian, are you going to Blagaj? Which is, um, I shouldn't have disclosed where we exactly, where we live, but yeah, are we? Yep, the village I live. So I was like, yeah. And he said, moje, which basically I think means I can. Walked around, got in the passenger seat and said, okay, off you go.
Leanne ElliottThat was it.
Al ElliottSo I was taking this bloke to Blagaj and he's chattering away all the way in Bosnian and dropped him off at the supermarket. And he was like, thank you very much. All right, off he goes. And even the dogs were like, What the hell? Who's this guy? And I was like, I don't know, guys. I have no idea who he is.
Leanne ElliottThat's a nice thing to do though.
Al ElliottYeah. I mean, to be fair, I'm probably gonna see him most mornings now, so he's gonna be like most mornings getting in the car. But, uh, yeah, I thought it was quite funny. He didn't seem bothered at all that he was getting into a British car and sitting in where he would normally sit to drive. He was just like, oh, chatting away. Yeah. Anyway.
Leanne ElliottBut that wasn't the only thing that happened this morning. You've had quite an eventful morning.
Al ElliottBack at Christmas, I'm such an old man. Back at Christmas, I went back to the UK and Leanne and I both bought lovely dresses. dressing gowns and lovely slippers, um, because it, it does get cold in the Balkans.
Leanne ElliottIt gets really cold.
Al ElliottUm, and so I got these lovely little booty slippers and I love them and I wear them every single day. Um, and so I, I sat outside this morning, put my walking boots on, you know, kind of like on a terrace at the back of our garden, came back this morning, came back after the dogs, after dropping off, you know, Josip. Hope he had a good day. One of my slippers was gone and I was like, Lee, have you moved my slippers? I haven't been outside. Turns out I'd left the gate slightly open. A wild dog, there's quite a few live around here, a wild dog had come in, grabbed my slipper. I found it about half a kilometre down the road. So it's been a bit of a strange morning. Lee, has your morning been as strange or weak?
Leanne ElliottNo, well, mine's been quite uneventful. I have nothing to add really. They're 2 very good stories that happened on the same morning.
Al ElliottSo you've got all your shoes and you haven't had a random person get in the car?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah. How's your Olympics going? They're all over now.
Leanne ElliottOh, it's finished. It's finished, which is awfully sad. Although I did— it gets more and more unhinged as it went on. So you know how you were saying that like every event is basically just like skiing, but it's like a small ski, a long ski, one very big ski. Well, there was actually actual skiing, and it was called— what was it called? Mountaineering? But I think they, they mountaineering and skiing, but they, they shortened it to Mo-ski.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottOr something like that. Or Ski-Mo. No, Ski-Mo.
Al ElliottSki-Mo.
Leanne ElliottSki mountaineering. That was it. Ski-Mo. So I was watching it and I was like, what the is this? So they're basically like, they're trying to mimic people who go mountaineering and need their skis because it's snowing. So they'll be like skiing uphill, but they can't. So they're kind of like waddling like ducks with their kind of legs really, really apart. If anyone skis, like a reverse snowplough.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottAnd like going up and I'm like, okay, that's a bit weird, but I get it. They're going up and then they go down. And but then there's another bit where there's stairs.
Al ElliottWhat?
Leanne ElliottThere's stairs.
Al ElliottThere's no stairs on a mountain.
Leanne ElliottWell, I'm guessing it's— they're mimicking like a more steep mountain bit that you can't like walk ski up. So they have to take their skis off, put them in their backpack, and then walk up the steps. And then we're at the top, they get their skis back out and they ski down. And it was just like, I think it's lost the romance when, when the skiers are just walking up a pair of wooden stairs.
Al ElliottYeah, it's more like walking towards the après-ski than it is, you know, maybe that's what it is. Maybe. Did they stop for any kind of like beverages or anything? I bet the Italians did. I bet the Italians stopped at the top and opened a—
Leanne ElliottA little espresso. No, not that I saw, but the— I can't— who won? I think it's maybe the French that won. And yeah, the Australians came last, but by quite a margin, like about 4 and a half minutes. But they were like, come on, John. What's his name? Brad.
Al ElliottKind of tough to practice in Australia going up a mountain in snow, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottWell, exactly. Who's got stairs and snow in Australia?
Al ElliottAnyway, back to business, Lee. Yeah, what have you seen this— oh, hang on, so we've got to do the jingle first, haven't we? Should we just do the jingle?
Leanne ElliottIt's time for the news— what was it? Roundup. Cue the jingle, Al.
Al ElliottGoing really well. Okay, Lee, what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottI've got a new word.
Al ElliottOkay, um, no, I've got a new word, it's bobbins, but I've got—
Leanne Elliottit's, it's appearing as a new word in inverted commas.
Al ElliottOh, I thought you meant that now we've run out of words, of you run out of new words and you're just making them up.
Leanne ElliottNo, I've, I've, I've, no, this is genuinely something that I saw in the news. It's like, this is new thing, is explaining this.
Al ElliottAnd what's the word?
Leanne ElliottSilent disengagement.
Al ElliottUm, that just sounds like rust out or disengagement or that. I'm confused 'cause that sounds like it's really obvious.
Leanne ElliottIt sounds like quiet quitting as well, doesn't it?
Al ElliottYeah, it sounds like it's really obvious what it is.
Leanne ElliottYeah, well, what do you think it is?
Al ElliottIt's people who disengage quietly.
Leanne ElliottYeah, but what does that mean?
Al ElliottIt means that they stop doing, um, the most, they, they just, Call it phone it in, I think is what the kids say. They phone in their work. They don't do anything. They're not really that bothered about what happens to the company, but they just do it quietly.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIs that it?
Leanne ElliottYeah. It's not a new word, is it?
Al ElliottIt doesn't need— no. Why did you choose it then?
Leanne ElliottBecause this is, this is where I'm like, we're just, we're just going over the same things again and again and putting it in a new bow and pretending that it hasn't existed for the past 30 years. And I find it slightly frustrating.
Al ElliottOf words where they just like make up new things and go, now we're doing skis going upstairs.
Leanne ElliottYeah, this is skimo.
Al ElliottMaybe it's not.
Leanne ElliottSo basically it's being framed as the latest workplace trend, with the article specifically asking, is it behind the death of office culture?
Al ElliottOh God.
Leanne ElliottSo here's what apparently they mean by it. People— exactly as you said, Al— people are turning up, logging on, doing what's required, Mentally, they're pulling back a bit. They're speaking less in meetings. They've stopped volunteering for projects. They're sticking to the basics. It's not dramatic. The article links this to rising dissatisfaction at work, and this— I hadn't heard this statistic, but oh my goodness. Apparently, a 2024 UK study suggested more than 90% of people are at least somewhat unhappy in their jobs.
Al ElliottOh, that's a bit of a sad Yeah, 90%. Oh my God.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so the argument is that when enough people are withdrawing, then culture starts to feel a bit off, the low energy, and that means that the office doesn't have a spark, apparently. Um, so there was somebody who commented on this. Kickresume Peter Duris said that employees need to reflect on what's driving it. Are you overworked, understimulated, feeling powerless, feeling undervalued, and managers need to notice the signs early, have proper one-to-ones, recognise contributions, and create visible growth pathways. They're describing disengagement, Al. They're just describing disengagement. And we've been studying that properly since at least 2009, when engagement scores started kind of dropping sharply. And of course, they continue, they continue to drop. So it isn't new. But anyway, our thoughts.
Al ElliottThere is a simple solution to this, which I don't think many people know about. And that is to put fruit in the break rooms.
Leanne ElliottAh, yes. Or a ping pong table.
Al ElliottOr a ping pong table. Or if you have—
Leanne ElliottBeanbags.
Al ElliottBeanbags. If you have got the budget, then a mindfulness app might be the solution. Oh, come on. I mean, look, let's be honest. This is, like you say, this has been going on for a while. If it is 90%, I mean, that seems like a very, very, very high level of people who are so— did they— what was the words? Was it somewhat? Unhappy in their jobs.
Leanne ElliottYes. So it's not, it's probably 2 statistics. I haven't looked at the original survey lumped together. So it might be something that like 30% are somewhat and then like 60% are very or something.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottOkay. But even somewhat dissatisfied with their job is quite a lot, isn't it?
Al ElliottIt is quite a lot. And it's quite sad because I don't wanna shill our product, but our product, the RX7, which Leanne has designed, basically says there are 7 Mm-hmm. And one of the key ones there is role and reason. And I think that, yeah, if you, if you know what your role is and you know why you are doing your work, and bonus, you have the resources to do it, I don't think, don't see how you could be unhappy unless you were doing something terrible. Like your job was to work. I mean, I, I don't wanna say work in an abattoir cuz I'm sure people, people do work in abattoirs. It wouldn't be for me. I wouldn't have the right reason, even if my job role was very specific and it was to— well, we never know what happens in an abattoir. Moving on, Leanne, moving on. Drag me out of this. Take me out of this horrendous cul-de-sac.
Leanne ElliottDo you remember when we spoke to Rory Sutherland on the podcast? Name drop. Well, he was like, I reckon that all of these, like, return to office mandate things are written by commercial property companies and they're just slipping it into the press. This screams to me like it's almost like a distraction, like, look over there, instead of like focusing on the fact that disengagement remains in the toilet.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBecause leadership is, is, is poor. People aren't getting meaningful work. They're not feeling valued or challenged. They're not being treated well. And I think it's just a distraction to, to look at again the office and remote working argument. And you know what irritates me the most about that argument, Al?
Al ElliottGo on.
Leanne ElliottIt doesn't matter. It's context.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's like saying, oh well, I'm more disengaged because I live in Manchester and you live in Stockport. So what's that got to do with the price of fish? Do you know what I mean? It's context. There's pros and cons to the office. There's pros and cons to working from home and hybrid, everything in between. But the point is, culture isn't about where people physically are, whether it be a building or in their homes. It's about how they feel valued, how they're challenged, how they're treated fairly, and how they're, they're invested in. And without those things, people withdraw, and they'll do it quietly sometimes, they'll do it politely, and other times they'll do it very, very loudly, as we've heard from loud quitting or rage quitting or whatever it is. So I don't think lumping in the office-work-from-home debate into disengagement is necessary.
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottUm, because it, it's existed far before. We had this even as an option on a large scale. So, so it's a new word, but I brought it to your attention more in terms of if you're reading stuff like this, just challenge it a little bit in your mind. Think critically. Is this new? Is it a distraction? What is actually happening? You know? So there you go. Anyway, rant over. What have you seen this week, love?
Al ElliottWell, kind of similar and a little bit tangential. Not tangential.
Leanne ElliottTangential meme.
Al ElliottTangent. Is it tangent? I think you're gonna have to listen. You're gonna have to write in. I look forward to your letters. I'm not quite sure exactly how you say it. I've never seen it written down, but you know a tangent of a circle? So you do a circle, you get a line which is a tangent because it's just slightly touching it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBut it goes off in a different direction. Well, that's what this should be. I probably could have said something quite related, but a little similar.
Leanne ElliottNo, I enjoyed it. I've learnt, you've got a new word.
Al ElliottI've got a new word. Tangential. That's what my new word is.
Leanne ElliottI don't think you can say genital on the podcast.
Al ElliottGet cancelled. So it was in the BBC. It was either this week or last week. I can't remember when it was. The link is in the show notes. A 24-year-old social media officer called Lily-May Edwards. And the story was kind of interesting because I think a lot of people think Gen Z don't wanna work in the office. They wanna sit in their pyjamas all day. They basically just don't wanna be anything to do with other people. They just wanna sit and do their work. This is the opposite because Lily-May, she lives in North Wales. She works at the University of Liverpool. So rather than move house, she commutes for 4 hours a day, 2 hours in, 2 hours back.
Leanne ElliottWhere does she live?
Al ElliottNorth Wales. I, I know. I'm wondering if she lives kind of around near Mold. Do you know?
Leanne ElliottBut Liverpool, it's not gonna take her 4 hours. Wait a minute, how's she doing it?
Al ElliottUh, she's walking. No, no. So she gets— she drives to a station, gets a train, and then the train takes about an hour and a half. And I mean, you know the trains in North Wales.
Leanne ElliottYeah, they're really bad.
Al ElliottSo it'll take you 40 minutes just to get to the station.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd then Chester to a level— sorry, it's a little bit of a weird—
Leanne ElliottSorry, go on. So she's living in North Wales.
Al ElliottAre you doubting the validity of BBC's— are you fact-checking BBC?
Leanne ElliottNo, not at all. They never get anything wrong.
Al ElliottMy point is she, she, she basically likes— she enjoys the commute, but moreover, she's more than willing to do that 2 hours there, 2 hours back because she really, really, really enjoys working in the office. Working in the office, so she starts off at 5:30 in the morning. This BBC then goes on to say actually that there was a 2025 survey of 12,000 workers suggesting that Gen Z are actually leading the return to the office, not resisting it. So this is like you remember Jamie Dimon, and he was like going off saying that what do you say young people left behind or something by remote working? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's basically saying look. This, this survey is suggesting no, it's kind of the opposite. Gen Z really want to be in the office. Lily-Mae says, and I'll read from you, she loves physically going somewhere, she likes having a purpose, she likes seeing friends at work, she likes the structure. There was another survey, the Office for National Statistics, the ONS, they say workers aged 30 to 49 are the most likely to be hybrid, not Gen Z.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottWhich I thought was interesting because I suppose they're more likely to have responsibilities. So Gen Zed more likely to be able to go, right, I want to go in. So it looks like actually Gen Zed do want to be in the office as opposed to all the boomers and boring people out there telling you that they don't.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThoughts?
Leanne ElliottYeah, this is, this has been something that we've been talking about with clients since the early phase of coming out of the pandemic and working from home in terms of is Gen Zed or earlier career employees at a disadvantage because they're not in an environment where they can observe people more senior than them doing their work and how they talk to clients and how they navigate things, and, and basically being able to observe that behavior being role modeled. And yes, that is absolutely true. That's not to say that that behavior can't be role modeled virtually. It just needs to come with a lot more intention And there's not a lot of organisations that have set up to do this because they don't invest in their leaders in the way that that we should. I think there's also a social element as well, isn't there? For Gen Zed in terms of the kind of going out after work. I don't mean that in like the ooi ooi ooi drinking because they don't really do that either, do they? But that socialisation aspect and meeting up after work, and particularly if you're living in somewhere rural, having an evening in Liverpool is going to be. Very fabulous. And I feel like I can say that with some conviction because I lived in North Wales and used to go to Liverpool and Manchester to have some fun. So yeah, I think it makes sense. I think it's really about being mindful that Gen Z or just early career professionals, and that could be somebody who's in their 30s or 40s but have pivoted into a new industry. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be in their 20s, but they're going to want to be around people who are more experienced to learn from them and to, yeah, to develop. But that also needs to come with some intention, some structure. It's not a case of saying, oh, well, if we just go back into the office and we don't— we can get rid of that training and development budget. No, it's not going to be that easy. What I'd be very surprised with Gen Z putting up with though, if you remove the kind of the social element of it, if they're going into an office where everybody's on Zoom calls, And everybody's got their headphones in and nobody's talking to each other, or their manager isn't there, their manager's working from home. It has to be really structured and intentional, as we heard from Ina and Elena, who've done a lot of research into hybrid structures. So I'm not surprised, but I think there is going to be— I'm guessing Lily, was that her name?
Al ElliottYes. Let me just look at my notes. It was not Elena. Lily May. I hope I'm not doxxing her by saying her full name, Lily-May Edwards.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so it sounds like Lily has got a supportive work environment, that she's got colleagues that she has positive relationships with, and she's experiencing something different. And as you said, key thing, Al, doesn't have any other responsibilities. If you've got kids to pick up from school, you're not gonna be able to do a 4-hour commute, are you?
Al ElliottNo, no, especially if you have to come back, the kid's sick, and then And you're like 2 hours to get back there. Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, so I think the key thing here is really just if you're gonna, if you're gonna do an RTO, not mandate, but if you are encouraging RTO, then, uh, then just build some, an office that people want to be in.
Leanne ElliottThere's an idea.
Al ElliottThere's an idea.
Leanne ElliottThere's an idea.
Al ElliottLeigh, what else have you seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottIt is 23 days until spring. In fact, I think it's, it's actually 24 and a few hours because spring has a very We Googled this the other day, didn't we?
Al ElliottWe sat there and you said, when's spring start? And I said, oh, I think it's the 21st of March. And you Googled it and it was actually— it actually had a time.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it does. Let me just get that timing.
Al ElliottCan I do a Joe Rogan? Bring that up, Leanne. Bring that up.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I'm bringing it up. I'm bringing it up. Yes, Friday the 20th of March at 15:46 CET. So that's gonna be, that's gonna be 14:46 GMT if you're in the UK. So there you go, an exact time because it's the spring equinox apparently. Um, so it's that precise. So it's in just over 23 days' time, which is very exciting, Al. Um, but bad news, some of the research I was reading this week suggested it's gonna be a long 23 days, my friend.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottSo this was a new study published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, one of my favourites. Al, have you read it?
Al ElliottOf course. Yeah, it's on my nightstand.
Leanne ElliottOf course it is. So the study suggested that tedious tasks often feel worse when they're nearly finished. So if you're on a long, boring project at work, it actually starts to feel unbearable right near the end.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo as you're counting down, uh, the last little bit. So to find this, researchers ran a series of studies. So in one, they surveyed 240 commuters— talking about Lily— on a busy subway, um, journey during rush hour. Some were already on the train and rated how pleasant and tiring their journey felt. Others were waiting on the platform, and they predicted how they expected to feel partway through the ride. And the pattern was really consistent. So people actually on the train reported feeling worse the closer they were to the end of their journey.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottBut those predicting their feelings assumed the opposite. So they thought the progress would make it feel easier, like only 3 more stops, only 2 more stops. But no, that wasn't the case. It felt harder. The same effect was shown in a study of people who were in mandatory COVID quarantine. So participants rated boredom and annoyance At around day 11 to 13. Some were halfway through a 21-day quarantine, others were nearing the end of a 14-day quarantine. But basically, the ones that, even though they were on the 14-day, reported feeling even more kind of worse about it and tired and frustrated about it, even though the end was, was nearer in sight. So despite having endured kind of the same number of days, those closer to finishing reported significantly higher levels of boredom and annoyance. I guess the counterintuitive bit here is that you'd think making progress would feel satisfying.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt'd feel like a relief. Oh, I've only got a few more days to go. I've only got this bit to do. But it's actually the, the closer that comes to ending, the more frustrated we're and exhausted we're feeling. And the reason basically the researchers came up with Or our brains are punishing us for putting them through such a tedious thing, and it's not letting us forget it. So basically, like, the more we've endured, the more our brain is going to be like, what, you put me through? Seriously? Um, and just kind of, kind of have a word with yourself. Um, but there is a small solution. So as part of the experiment, the researchers took 311 participants and asked them to complete a short but very tiring online task. Before starting, half were explicitly prompted to think about the rest of their day. So how many hours were left before bedtime, what else they still needed to do, maybe who they were seeing that day. The other half, the other part of the group, just had to focus on the task. They weren't prompted with anything. So after completing most of it, those who had been reminded of the broader context rated the task as 11% less unpleasant. Wow.
Al ElliottThat's quite a specific, quite a specific amount. Okay, so what we're saying— so what, hang on, what is the fix? I got lost in the less unpleasant.
Leanne ElliottSo basically, if we were about to do a really tedious task, like sit down and record a podcast— I'm joking, I'm joking. But say you really hated doing this. You don't, you love it. But say you really hated doing it. If before we sat down, I was like, oh, hey, so what else are you And you'd be like, oh, I'm speaking to Rachel at 4, and I've got a meeting with our architect at 7, and then I'm gonna take the dog out because I need to find my slipper. That framing, that zooming out, is gonna help you in terms of getting through the task in a way that feels more or less unpleasant.
Al Elliott11% less unpleasant.
Leanne ElliottBecause you framed it in a, this is a story. Therefore, it's not as big of a thing.
Al ElliottLove it. So your advice for people who— because we are, let's be honest, we are 2/3 of the way through towards spring. If we assume that we all kind of started in danger working or in earnest working in January 7th, 23 days of January, 23 days currently, or 24 days of February, 23 days left. We're about 2/3 of the way through. Any quick advice for someone who's about to leave? like, this next 23 days is going to be tough.
Leanne ElliottThis is going to be a really good time to do a little review of your year so far.
Al ElliottBook your holiday as well.
Leanne ElliottBook your holiday, yeah. Think about things that you're excited about coming up and things within the day as well. As I say, it's that zooming out. So if you're having a particularly kind of, you know, it's going to be a day, then thinking about what else is going to happen in this day. Is it that I'm going to enjoy my 4-hour commute to Is it I'm going to be— I'm going to meet my friend for a coffee at lunchtime? And then also, as I said, it might be a good time to kind of zoom out as well and think about what your other goals are for the year, because January can always feel like we should be doing this at that point. Most of us are too tired, but spring is a good time to do that. So maybe start to think about and reflect on what you'd like out of 2026, and that should help you get through the next 23 days.
Al ElliottLove it. A temporal landmark. Is that what you psychologists call it? Okay, talking of listening to things, then we've got a lovely advert coming up for you. We'll see you in about 60 seconds.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode. And 2 out of 3 of us are from the north.
Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agents to fake their fandom. to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoy Can balsamic vinegar make beer taste better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. All right. Welcome back. It is time for Truth or Lie. This is where we take something that sounds like common sense, usually in the workplace, and put it under a little bit of pressure. Today's claim feels almost untouchable. I would say that this is the truth. This is the— is it a true or is it a lie? People don't leave bad jobs, they leave bad managers. Now, I'll be honest, I've heard lots of people say this, and I think a lot of us can think of a boss who made work harder than it actually needed to be. But is that what the evidence says? Over to the scientist, Chartered Occupational Psychologist, my wife, co-host, and also looking really lovely and wintry today in your lovely green jumper.
Leanne ElliottThank you.
Al ElliottIs it a truth or is it a lie?
Leanne ElliottI'm not sure we'd find many people who haven't heard this phrase, to be fair. But have you ever thought about where it comes from?
Al ElliottNo, I just assumed it was a— I assumed it was someone clever, probably in the '50s or the '70s. Someone like that guy who talks about culture. I can't forget his name.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I hadn't really thought about it either. It's kind of just folklore, isn't it? Apparently, it's traced back to a '90s book called First Break All the Rules. By Marcus Buckingham and Curt Kaufman.
Al ElliottI've heard of that. Marcus Buckingham, fun fact, he was the lead singer of Fleetwood Mac for a while. No, he wasn't. That was Lindsey Buckingham.
Leanne ElliottCarry on. What? Yeah, so that's where it comes from. And I think Gallup has famously kind of amplified it through their workplace research. So the claim is pretty simple. Managers are the primary reason employees resign. It's not pay, it's not workload, it's not the job. It's a relationship with your manager. And it has become very popular because it's framed retention as a leadership issue rather than necessarily a structural one. So, if turnover is about managers, then organisations can fix it by improving leadership behaviour. So, that's the claim that we were looking in for. I'm not going to lie, one of these for and against is slightly more heavily weighted than the other.
Al ElliottRight. Okay.
Leanne ElliottSo, case 4, strap in, Al. There is strong research showing that managers have a significant impact on turnover, so people leaving their jobs. A 2012 study examined transformational leadership and turnover behaviour. So, that's not just intentions to quit, but people actually exiting the business.
Al ElliottRight, yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, they found that transformational leadership, which is all about— that leadership is all about inspiration, motivation, empowerment, very popular in the '90s. Transformational leadership significantly reduced actual turnover. And even more interestingly, even when employees had already formed intentions to quit, transformational leaders weakened the link between intention and behaviour. So, people might actually stay for their transformational leader, even though they started to think about quitting.
Al ElliottOh, okay.
Leanne ElliottYeah, that's quite interesting, isn't it? Yeah, it is. It's really interesting. So, then we go to a more recent study in 2018. that looked at managerial influence tactics and emotional engagement. So basically just how we kind of form that relationship and how we squish it about. They found an increase in managerial, a 1-unit increase in managerial pressure. So things like threats, excessive demands, or coercion was associated with a 91.1% increase in the odds of turnover.
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottNo, it genuinely is. That sounded like I was being sarcastic there. No, that genuinely is. So 1% increase. So 1% more of a dick.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliott91% more chance of them leaving.
Leanne ElliottYep.
Al ElliottBlimey.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Dramatic, isn't it? I told you to strap in, Al.
Al ElliottI know. I also wanna write an article called, called 1% More Dick because I think that'd be quite funny. But carry on. Carry on.
Leanne ElliottYes. Then we go to an even more recent study, 2023. They also concluded, the researchers, that leadership style has a positive and significant impact On employee retention, whereas autocratic leadership styles, that's when it's kind of very individual control, one person makes all decisions. That type of leadership style was specifically linked to higher turnover and absenteeism. So that's people going off sick.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottWe then got a 2017 review which looked at a number of different studies. They drew on Gallup data that noted 50% of employees who voluntarily leave say they're doing it to get away from their managers.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And also highlighted as well, a very famous statistic that I think everybody has heard in quotes, that the manager-employee relationship accounts for 70% of engagement variance.
Al ElliottCan you just put that into English for us so I can totally understand? I'm getting a little baffled by the word 70% variance. What does that mean?
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, variance is like a statistical kind of measure. So it's basically in terms of How you'd think about a correlation.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo, manager-employee relationship accounts in terms of engagement. If it's a strong relationship, engagement will go up. If it's a negative engagement, that will go down. 70% variance means that of all the other factors that might be in play in terms of people's intention to quit their job, like pay, if you're wondering why somebody has quit, there's a good— 70% of that reason, that why, is going to be the manager.
Al ElliottI don't think we need to do the against here, do we?
Leanne ElliottWell, well, there is some more. Uh, McKinsey, um, had a say on this as well. 2021, the Great Attrition, uh, research. They said that employers assumed people were leaving for pay and benefits, but employees reported— in fact, 54% of them said they didn't feel valued by their manager, and 52% said they didn't feel valued by their organisation. And that's why They left. And then a 2012 study by McKenzie and Wallach fairly bluntly said that the relationship with the boss remains the single greatest reason employees leave organisations.
Al ElliottWow. So that is probably, of all the Truth and Lies we've done, that's probably the one which is like, we've got to this point. Is it true?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI can't see anything that's going to prove that it's not true.
Leanne ElliottAnd when I say if you do one thing, Train your managers. That's why, friends. That is why. So the case against, okay, there is some, there is some out. There is, um, some research that looked at push-to-leave forces. So not just the manager. So this is things like job satisfaction or a negative workplace shock, for example, a round of layoffs, but you're, you're a survivor.
Al ElliottOh, yeah.
Leanne ElliottThat triggered the initial thought of quitting. And yes, leadership weakened the final decision, but it didn't remove that intention because of that dissatisfaction with structurally what's happening in the organisation.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo, it didn't vanish because people liked their manager. If we look at the McKinsey research again, they also identified that lack of meaningful work, limited autonomy, such as control over our jobs, flexibility, and career progression were also major drivers of attrition. And the 2023 paper I mentioned also listed things like low salary, lack of growth opportunities, poor working conditions as other reasons people will change jobs. So, oh, and one other one that I'll mention actually is a 2018 Facebook study. So, they looked at some internal attrition data at Facebook, and they found something that is actually probably the strongest thing against this. So, at Facebook, People who left generally liked their managers, but they left because the work itself wasn't enjoyable or didn't offer growth. So their conclusion was, in that context, people didn't quit their boss, they did quit their manager.
Al ElliottHowever— They did quit their job. So in that one, what Facebook was saying is, no, no, they quit the job, not the manager. Is that what they were saying? Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd it's almost like, is that the exception to the rule? Maybe, but then you think about how much control managers have over job design and how much influence they have over how roles evolve or who gets stretch opportunities, then it kind of weakens that argument for me. But I guess what the against is saying, there are other reasons people will leave their job. They will always leave their job for a bad manager.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo the verdict, is it a truth? Is it a lie? It's true. But a little smidge of nuance, I guess. So, people will sometimes leave a perfectly good job because it's run its course. They've outgrown it. They want some more money. They want some more autonomy. They want to do something new. That's normal. That's just natural career movement. And that's what we would call voluntary turnover.
Al ElliottUh-huh.
Leanne ElliottSo, it's not kind of been forced by what's happening in the organisation. And that's fine. We don't actually— most organisations don't even include that as part of their formal turnover statistics fairly, because it's not for the organisation, they're just time to, time to move on.
Al ElliottSandra wants to go and raise geese in Norfolk rather than work in a laboratory.
Leanne ElliottExactly, drive over lemons. Exactly. But a bad manager, the research has overwhelmingly shown, I think, that poor leadership doesn't just make work less enjoyable, it accelerates disengagement, it dramatically increases the odds of Leaving, anything around coercion, lack of recognition, people not feeling valued, it doesn't just nudge people towards the door, it's gonna catapult them through it. And this is why I'd say word of caution to any business owner right now who's feeling quite happy with their current rate of turnover being low, because people are job hugging, because the economy isn't great and people are scared. The Great Resignation 2.0 is coming, mark my words. So in terms of bad managers, yeah, they're rarely tolerated for long. People may leave their jobs for many reasons, but they will almost always leave a manager who is making a job unbearable.
Al ElliottThere you go. So it is basically, it's true, but there is nuance. Um, and we take it, we take aside the people who are going to leave anyway because they just want a different opportunity. Take aside the people who are going to leave because they love their boss, but they just need to get more money because perhaps they're expecting more people in their family or something.
Leanne ElliottExactly.
Al ElliottBut generally speaking, the biggest way to avoid Avoid high turnover is to train your managers and have a great— have great managers, basically.
Leanne ElliottYep. If you do one thing.
Al ElliottThere we go. There we go. Bookended nicely there, Leanne. Okay. Thank you. If you have a truth or lie that you want Leanne to look into, then, then just check the show notes. There's loads of, there's loads of ways to get in touch in there. And there's also, I think, well, you'll, you'll see there's, there's a way that very few people use, but they could. Anyway, onto the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne, I've got 3 questions, as would be my wont. Are you ready for question number 1?
Leanne ElliottI'm ready.
Al ElliottSuperb. So the question is, unlimited holiday, a bit of a fad, or is it worth it? So this person writes, I run a small business, 4 employees. We offer unlimited holiday. I picked it up from a previous company I worked at, and I like the principle behind it, but I've seen mixed results. Some people don't know how much to take. Some take too little and have to be encouraged to book time off. Others just manage it sensibly and get on with their work. I still— I wonder, they haven't said anyone who just does it Like, only works 2 days a year. I still like the idea in theory. I'm just not sure that genuinely works long term. Is it just a modern perk that sounds better as it plays out? Lee, is unlimited holiday actually a good policy for small teams?
Leanne ElliottI'm gonna say no.
Al ElliottOoh, that's not what I thought you were gonna say.
Leanne ElliottI know, normally it depends, and of course it always does, but no, I do know what I think it is. I think it's a bit gimmicky. I think it's a bit faddy because I think any employee out there is gonna go, well, it's not really because I can't take like 48 weeks off.
Al ElliottYeah, true.
Leanne ElliottYou know, so it's not really unlimited. There's going to be a boundary on there, right? So that's all about the kind of the unspoken rules. And, and I just think it can cause more problems, as this person is saying, in terms of people not taking time off, particularly our younger employees. They often feel uncertain about what is, what is appropriate, and can that That can cause real anxiety for people not knowing how long they can take off. Also, a darker side of it, if you've got a bad manager, and we know there's a fair few out there because they've not been trained, Al.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne Elliott60% of managers have received no formal training whatsoever. Then we could have a little bit of control in there. There might be some informal pressure put on people not to take holidays because workloads are high, or this project needs to be finished, or it's a badge of honour. to have only taken 5 days holiday that year, do you know, like sick leave type thing. So, I think there's more risks than there are upsides, and there are upsides. You know, we know that treating people like adults is a really great way to treat people, and we know that kind of the recharge effect from a longer holiday is really good. I think we covered that with the holiday effect, didn't we?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottProbably last summer, actually, about what kind of good leave looks like and the activities to engage in, which is usually things like very social activities and creative activities. And yeah, it could improve work-life balance in some ways if you've got a, you know, as you said before, Al, your child is sick and you need to go and pick it up. You could take that as an annual leave day because it's unlimited annual leave. What are you laughing at?
Al ElliottI'm laughing because it's clear we're not parents because you said your child is It is in a neutral term for him, him or her or they. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, I think, I think that there are pros, but I think there's better ways to manage that in terms of just having flexibility in work if you need to leave early for whatever reason. My thought would be it's going to be much better to have a set number of days that is generous.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd then you can use that up. You know, or look at something like a reduced working week, whether it be a 4-day work week. That, from research purposes, has shown much more of a positive impact on teams, on performance, on individual wellbeing, on growth, on profitability. That has a lot more research behind it going, this is a really good thing to do in terms of structuring your company. I'm, I'm not sure the same can be said for Unlimited annual leave. And from what you've said, you're not convinced either. So I just knock it on the head, but replace it with— you're gonna have to replace it with a generous holiday allowance because you can't go from unlimited to 20 days, which is the statutory minimum requirement in the UK. Do you know what I mean? You're gonna have to go in chunky.
Al ElliottFair, fair, fair. Do you know what it reminds me of? Do you remember at school? I don't know if they still have it or not, but it used to be non-uniform day at school.
Leanne ElliottOh yeah, hated those days.
Al ElliottI hated those days as well because it's like, wear whatever you want, But you'll be judged. The shit will be judged out of you by everyone else there. And this feels like exactly the same thing. Take as much time off as you want, but people will be talking about you. Yeah, they absolutely will. Okay, that's great. So question number 2, how do you lift morale after a tough year? Oh, this is a bit of a— I'm sorry, that was a bit— a bit chirpy. So sorry, this person. Sorry, this person. It's been a heavy year for our team, they write. We've lost some longstanding managers to retirement and other opportunities. We've got Oh God, that sounds awful. I once got investigated by HMRC. That's the tax people in the UK. In fact, I lie, I got investigated twice. That was horrendous. A lot of this is outside anyone's control, but it's clearly taken its toll on the team because morale feels flat. I'm feeling it too. I can see it in the team. I haven't tried increasing check-ins and bringing people together, but it still feels like we're just dragging ourselves forward.
Leanne ElliottI think Forward.
Al Elliottthat's a really good point. What a phrase. How do you help a team recover after a long draining stretch and brackets and maybe rebuild energy without pretending everything's fine? The 2 key phrases I hear is dragging ourselves forwards is so emotive, and then pretending everything's fine, I think, just gives you a little bit of an insight into this person who's writing in.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think this is where I think your, your immediate mind is going to want to go to How do I bring people together? How do I make everybody friends? How do I give them treats?
Al ElliottWhich is what they've done.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And it's not necessarily a bad thing to do, but it's not gonna fix anything that has been broken by what you've been through this year, which is a lot by the sound of it. I think this is a really good opportunity for a little reset. And do you remember me talking about shitposting, Al?
Al ElliottShitposting? Yeah, sure. But what is it? What context?
Leanne ElliottSo this is something that I did with a team I took over as manager.
Al ElliottOh yeah, I remember down in Cornwall.
Leanne ElliottThat needed a bit of a turnaround. Performance wasn't great. They'd also been through a lot of challenge in terms of— they also had audits on them that didn't go so well and lots of other things in terms of transitions of leadership and etc., etc. They'd been through a really tough time. So, I went down, and this is actually based on a more professional approach, which is called like the 3 buckets of—
Al ElliottStrengths.
Leanne ElliottYeah, of workplace courage or resilience or whatever you want to call it. But basically, I went into the team and I was like, right, we're going to sit in this room together all day. I've ordered a nice lunch. We've got some nice pops and coffees and teas and stuff. It's gonna be very comfortable. We'll take regular breaks, but we're gonna sit in this room together all day. And the morning we're gonna talk about everything that's really, really irritating us, everything that we hate, everything that drives us nuts, everything that we miss that's, that used to be here and wasn't, everything that is just making our jobs harder and putting us in a position where we just don't have the energy to move forward. And we're not talking about solutions. We're not talking about blame or finger-pointing. We're just talking about things that we hate. And I found we get all sorts of things from processes to way people would maybe talk about things, to managers who were no longer there, to, yeah, lots of different things. And then in the afternoon, we'd go, right, let's look at our big long— and I'd write them down. This was on the— but on the back in the day, we had like flip charts. Um, we'd write them all down and we'd go, right, okay, well, what Do we now do with it? This is the afternoon's all about kind of having that solution. So we're gonna go through and put things in these buckets and think, what can we do about them? So in terms of the structure of the contract being really difficult to make money, there's nothing we can do about that. There's nothing I can do about it. There's nothing my manager can do about it. So we're just gonna have to put it in that, in that bucket over there and let it go. There's nothing we can do about it. But in terms of things that we miss, like we used to have One of the ones that made me sad is, like, they— we used to really enjoy these big sessions with customers, but the previous manager basically messed up the room bookings and they couldn't do it anymore. And since then it felt flat. So it's like, right, well then that's an easy fix. We'll go back and we'll book out those rooms and we'll book a load of sessions in and we'll get the customers back in, blah blah blah. That was things that we can influence and we can control, so we're going to go with it. Then there's going to be some things that I'm like, I might be able to influence this, but I know my manager is a person who can. So put that in the leave it with me bucket, and we'll see what we can do. With the view being that at the end of the day, you have to let it go. Everything that's been hard and and really felt out of control and unfair, you have to let it go. This is kind of the the new start, the fresh start. We've vented it all. We've got our plan. We're going to move forward with positivity. And there were some people that couldn't do that. There were some people who were too burnt out, some people who were too cynical, some people just didn't want to go for round 3, and those people left the business, and that's sad, but that's the way it is. But in terms of this scenario, I'm thinking activity like this might help people think, right, this is going to be different moving forward. This is going to be a fresh start. We've been through this. Let's reflect on it and how bad it was, and then talk about how we can rebuild and bounce back and actually build that team resilience. So, That would be my thought. And as an add-on, yeah, little treats, get them a nice lunch that day and make sure people have taken some leave recently. If you've had loads, or there might be people who've gone 6, 8 months without taking a break, figure out who those people are and make sure they take a week off.
Al ElliottExcellent advice. Excellent advice. There's a great philosopher and also amazing podcaster called Al Elliott who came up with the ellipse of give a shittery, which is basically, you'll see in one of our LinkedIn posts, basically it's a Venn diagram of things you can control, things you Things that bother you, and the bit in the middle is what you need to worry about. And I think that's great. Leanne, have we got time for one more?
Leanne ElliottAlways.
Al ElliottOkay, so this person writes, what do you do when you know in 30 seconds it's not a fit? Okay. We've been interviewing for a few roles recently, and we're struggling with something. Sometimes within the first 30 seconds of an in-person interview, it is obvious the candidate isn't right for the role. The phone screen might have gone well. Oh, I see the phone screen. That's like the screening. The screening might have gone well, but in the room it's clear there's a mismatch. We usually carry on for about 15 to 20 minutes to avoid being rude, then gently explain it's probably not a fit, but it feels like you're wasting everyone's time. How do you handle that professionally, respectfully? Le, thoughts? Um, I'm not sure you're going to agree with this.
Leanne ElliottThere is no— if you have designed a fair, lawful, non-discriminatory, effective recruitment process, it's going to reliably predict how somebody will perform in said job, then it is impossible for you to know within the first 30 seconds that somebody is not the right fit.
Al ElliottExcellent.
Leanne ElliottIt sounds like you are being a judgy-woody bear, and you're not actually assessing somebody on their potential, on their merit, on their experience. You're making a snap judgment because of how they presented themselves, how they look, how they speak, whatever it is. It sounds as though you being polite and giving them 15, 20 minutes might be the only thing that is avoided some kind of unlawful hiring recruitment tribunal type, you know, claim against you. Um, it's unlawful to, to do that because what you should be legally doing is proving that you've designed a recruitment process, an assessment process that fairly assesses somebody's competencies, skills, knowledge, abilities.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSuitability for the role, and that should include a mixed method. So, as you said, your phone screening and interview, it might be work sample tests, it might be psychometrics, it could be a whole host of things that you're going to use to measure these competencies. Ideally, every competency should be measured 3 times in 3 different ways. So, for example, if communication was a competency, you're going to measure that through a work sample test, through an interview, and through—
Al ElliottA survey.
Leanne ElliottUm, a role-play exercise, for example. It sounds as though you're really not doing that, because the beauty of doing that as well is that you then have a scoring system for the behavioural indicators that you want to see. So, how somebody empathises with a customer, how somebody challenges, um, or deals with confrontation, or challenges negative comments. That is actually how You're going to measure how well somebody is performing in that competency, and at the end, you're going to add up the points, and it's going to be a score out of 20, 50, whatever it is. So, then it's not a case of, oh, I wasn't sure about it, or didn't like their pair of shoes. It doesn't matter. You know, Jane got 52, and Bill got 31. So, Jane's our first candidate to hire. Shoes or not. Shoes or not. Yeah. So, it sounds like you are being wildly inappropriate in your in your current recruitment practices and unlawful as well. So, I would take a sigh of relief that your politeness has avoided you being taken to court and speak to somebody like an organisational psychologist or even a really freaking great recruiter, an internal recruiter or an outsourced recruiter, about how you should actually be doing this. Because right now, it sounds like you're building a very A very one-note organisation that is going to be subject to groupthink and lack of innovation and creativity. It sounds like you're recruiting people just like you.
Al ElliottYeah, don't want to be doing that.
Leanne ElliottSo it's said with love and respect.
Al ElliottIt's love, respect, and a little slap upside the head.
Leanne ElliottIt's a little bit, come on now.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, no, I get it.
Leanne ElliottCome on now.
Al ElliottI get it. If you have a question for Leanne, then get in touch. I will put it to her.
Leanne ElliottI saw you writing down some notes. I thought you might have something to say.
Al ElliottI—
Leanne ElliottIs there another thing?
Al ElliottNo, no, I think you covered everything. Um, uh, I, I think you covered everything. And I, I do remember when I was doing my recruitment back when I had, um, my WordPress agency. Um, and I remember going back to you and saying, oh God, this person, I think they're gonna be perfect. I knew the second they walked in, they were gonna be great. The fact is, this person actually has been great. And, um, it's, uh, you remember Rikki T?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah, and he's gone on and done amazing, amazing things. But you were like, Al, no, that's not the way you do it. So I definitely learned a lot. If you, if you have that problem, then do get in touch with us. And I'm sure Leanne will give you 20 minutes to 30 minutes of quick guidance on what you should and shouldn't be doing. I'm selling you out.
Leanne ElliottOf course. Of course I will.
Al ElliottYou write us a very large cheque. Okay, so don't forget to join us on Thursday. We're gonna be joined by Juliette Alban-Metcalfe. She is the CEO of Real Real World Group. You may not have heard of Real World Group. You definitely, definitely will have heard the organizations that she works for— works with, I'm sorry, not works for. Just one of Leanne and I's favorite companies out there doing behavioral analytics. And she's going to tell us exactly how we're using one particular type of assessment very wrongly. We're not going to say which one it is though, because that's, that's our hook and that's our That's our title, and that's how we're gonna get people to click and play.
Leanne ElliottWell, there you go. Do you have anything more to say?
Al ElliottI don't believe there is.
Leanne ElliottI don't want to steal your moment.
Al ElliottAll right, so we will see you next week. Bye-bye.