Episode 281 · 5 March 2026 · 49:44
"I was the adult at Facebook", with FB's #57 employee & author Tom LeNoble
"I was the adult at Facebook", with FB's #57 employee & author Tom LeNoble
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Who is Tom LeNoble?
interview#interview#career#biography
The interview with a 19-year-old Mark Zuckerberg
interview#mark-zuckerberg#interview#facebook
Being the 'adult in the room' — and loving it
The 10-year reunion and watching the chaos succeed
interview#reunion#success#startup-culture
The secret struggle — six months to live, three times
interview#health#terminal-illness#resilience
What a terminal diagnosis does to your mindset
Contributing for purpose, not for a paycheck
interview#purpose#motivation#career
Why high heels? The identity Tom left in the attic
The philanthropic mindset — it costs nothing
interview#philanthropy#mindset#giving
Living as an 'inspirator'
interview#inspiration#purpose#living
Laying off 100 people with dignity (and eventually himself)
interview#layoffs#dignity#resilience
Where to find Tom
Top 3 takeaways
interview#takeaways#summary#key-lessons
Show notes
"I Was the Adult at Facebook" — Tom LeNoble, Employee #57
Guest: Tom LeNoble — Facebook's 57th employee, former leader at Walmart.com, Palm (HP), and MCI (Verizon), CEO of the Academy for Coaching Excellence, and author of My Life in Business Suits, Hospital Gowns, and High Heels.
Imagine interviewing for a job at a tiny startup called "The Facebook" — in a cramped office above a Chinese restaurant, with a 19-year-old Mark Zuckerberg on the other side of the table. That was Tom LeNoble's reality in 2005. He took the job, became the "adult in the room," and helped shape a company that would change the world.
But here's what his colleagues didn't know: while Tom was leading through some of Silicon Valley's most chaotic and exhilarating years, he was also being told he had six months to live — three separate times.
Tom joins Al and Leanne to share an unflinching look at resilience, reinvention, and what it really means to lead with dignity. From laying off 100 people (and eventually himself) with grace, to reclaiming every part of his identity — including the high heels he'd left in the attic for decades — Tom's story is proof that the hardest moments in life can become the greatest gifts.
Top 3 Takeaways
Resilience isn't just getting back up — it's what you grow into. Tom's definition of resilience goes beyond bouncing back. It's about becoming someone new through the struggle, not just returning to who you were before.
How you treat people on the way out defines your culture more than how you treat them on the way in. Tom's philosophy on layoffs — treating people with dignity, "head held high" — shapes how remaining employees feel about their own futures.
The philanthropic mindset costs nothing. A smile, a hello, holding a door. When you give without expecting anything in return, you create connection — and that intention matters more than the size of the check.
About Tom LeNoble
Tom's book, My Life in Business Suits, Hospital Gowns, and High Heels, is available on Amazon. You can learn more by visiting www.tomlenoble.com and following @lenoble.tom on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. You can also reach Tom directly at resilience@tomlenoble.com.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottYou're the 57th person hired at a little-known startup. The company is a small startup called The Facebook. You might have heard of it. You're 50 years old. Everyone else is 20. The founder's 19 years old. And somewhere between setting up customer operations and building a team from scratch, a doctor tells you you've got 6 months to live.
Leanne ElliottOur guest today, Tom LeNoble, didn't tell his employees about his diagnosis. He didn't slow down. He just kept going through Facebook's early days, through Silicon Valley's boom years, through cancer diagnoses, through laying off over 100 people on his birthday, and eventually through laying himself off.
Tom LeNobleWhen I left Facebook, I said to Mark, I want to see you in 10 years. And he looked at me and said, why would you even want to see me? You're leaving. I said, I just want to see what happens, see where you ended up. So I left and went on about my business and forgot all about it. And I was sitting at my desk 10 years later and a Facebook message popped up. Still want to have lunch? I looked at that Facebook message from the 5th richest man in the world at the time and asked myself, do you want to have lunch with the 5th richest man in the world? To which I quickly responded, hell yeah.
Al ElliottSo Tom has worked at Facebook, he's worked at Walmart.com, he's worked at Palm, And he was involved in a dating site that Match.com bought. He's now a coach, a speaker, a philanthropist. Oh, and Tom has also been given 6 months to live 3 times.
Leanne ElliottHis book is called My Life in Business Suits, Hospital Gowns, and High Heels. And today, Tom is going to make you completely rethink what resilience actually means. Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies, and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottTom LeNoble was employee number 57 at Facebook before it was Facebook, interviewing with a 19-year-old Mark Zuckerberg in an office above a Chinese restaurant surrounded by graffiti art and people young enough to be his kids. They called him the adult in the room.
Leanne ElliottBut the bit Tom didn't mention to any of those employees For much of that glittering Silicon Valley career, he was living with a life-changing diagnosis. Today, he's a coach, speaker, and author, and his book, My Life in Business Suits, Hospital Gowns, and High Heels, has just hit number 1.
Al ElliottAfter this short break, we'll hear how Tom ended up at Facebook, what Mark Zuckerberg was actually like at 19, and the story of a reunion that took 10 years to happen. So don't go anywhere. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across the 3 teams and 4 systems, and in our case, about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story, and when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer Tell me, Tom, who are you? What do you do and what might you be famous for?
Tom LeNobleI like to say I retired being retired to be inspired. I had this amazing corporate career. I led customer service for MCI, a long-distance company way back in the day. I was the head of service at walmart.com in their early days. Ran global service operations for Palm, the Palm Pilot Trio people that are now part of HP, and got a phone call at my desk from a recruiter one day when I was in town from a little unknown company called Facebook. Facebook was still in colleges. I had no idea what it was, who it was, and I thanked the recruiter and hung up the phone. A buddy called me and said, I referred you to Facebook and you just didn't even talk to them. And Being that he's a VC in the Valley, I thought, well, maybe I should talk to Facebook. And so it's a great story that you can read in the book, but I interviewed with Mark Zuckerberg when he was 19 and eventually went to work at Facebook. I was in the first 75, maybe 57, but who's counting? And set up all their customer operations and some other things there while I was there. Then I was the chief support officer for a company that's now the backbone of the Geek Squad. Worked at a dating site, Match.com.
Al ElliottYeah.
Tom LeNobleWhich was an interesting period, and I managed that merger for them. And then boards would send me in as either the VP of HR or the COO to their startups with their perceived problem, which was never the problem. And I would go in there to address whatever the concern was that I uncovered. Then I fell in love, got married, and traveled the world and pulled back a bit and realized that I had more to do, more wisdom to share, more inspiration to pass around. So today I'm a coach. I'm a speaker. I'm an author of My Life in Business Suits, Hospital Gowns, and High Heels. I'm the host of the Opening Pathways podcast, and I'm the CEO of the Academy for Coaching Excellence, a 22-year-old coaching academy. We train coaches around the world.
Al ElliottI want to just go back to that. So you got the call from a recruiter about something which at that point, it wouldn't be the Facebook, it'd be Facebook, wouldn't it?
Tom LeNobleI think it was still the Facebook. At the time when I interviewed, it wasn't shortly after I started that it shifted to Facebook, but when I was there, it was the Facebook. And I went to an interview that was over, I think, a Chinese restaurant, this little tiny office. You went up the stairs and I was in a suit. And as I scaled the stairs, got to the top, I saw murals of graffiti art of women's breasts everywhere and asked myself, what am I doing here in my suit, no less? Turned the corner and saw a very small group of people through a few liquor bottles that were all young enough to be my child. And there I stood in this suit, in this environment. I was escorted to a room, and Mark came in in his signature t-shirt, sandals, and shorts at the time. And all I could think of is I needed to take something off, so I took off my jacket.
Al ElliottTalk me through, how did you feel during the interview? What, what did you Were you even going to take the job?
Tom LeNobleWell, the interview was interesting because we were in this conference room that had a couch and a TV with some sort of video game. I have no idea what it was. And Mark, as I took off my jacket, kicked off his shoes and sat on the couch, or sandals at the time, and asked me just to talk to him. And I thought, what a refreshing way to have an interview. And, you know, I got really intrigued with the product. I knew there was something there, but the thing that I was intrigued with most was this generation's willingness to share information. My generation would never do such a thing. But the real shock came my first day of work about 3 weeks later, maybe a month later. They had moved across the street. And as I was taken up an elevator to the 2nd floor to this space, as I I looked across the room. It was one huge room of nothing but desks, 3 people to a section. I'd left my cushy office with a view of the bay, and here I was. And all I could see is across the room, there was one office. And I thought, as they walked me towards it, oh, thank God, that's gonna be my office. Got there and realized, nope, I was right outside the office. That was the controller, and I think I was the barrier to keeping people from the controller. And I remember on that first day, Leaning to the 2 people of, I think, 8 that were going to report to me at that time. And I said this, where are the phones? To which they gasped. I thought they were going to pass out. They turned white and said, phones? We don't want anything to do with phones. We do everything by email. Well, in that moment, I realized 2 things. One, what have I done? 2, I knew somebody was going to talk on a phone from my experience in service, and I had it figured out it was likely going to be me.
Al ElliottSo what were you doing? What were you employed to actually do?
Tom LeNobleWe would, at the time, it was fascinating because we had this system that was sort of halfway useful. You know how it is at startup land. And so we responded to users, and it was an interesting thing that these Yeah. Customers, users that would write in were everything from suggestions. But what was fascinating to me is everybody was in colleges still. It was still in colleges, was how much these people loved it and took ownership of the Facebook at the time and the suggestions that came in. And the group really built the framework and the baseline of what was to come because we had to create procedures and all things and define everything that was going on. So it was really responding to users in the beginning as it was just starting from turning into a real service organization. I can remember some of the policies would be so funny. Eventually, we had— literally, it was called the nip and crack policy. Because when we started doing photos, there were these huge discussions back and forth about what would be allowed in the photo. And it finally became, if you had a nipple showing or a crack showing, Right. photo came down, which so it became the nip-crack policy, which today I'm sure that's not what it's called. But back then, you know, I was with a group of people, all 20, 21, that had deferred law school, business school, medical school from the likes of Harvard, Yale, Stanford, these top, top schools, brilliant, 20, 21. And there I was, 50, old enough to be their child, their, them, their father. And fascinating it was, without a doubt. In fact, they called me the adult in the room behind my back, even though I knew about it.
Al ElliottWere you upset about being the adult in the room? Did you feel excluded?
Tom LeNobleNo, I didn't at all, because I've had the good fortune in my career of working with different generations. Today I do a lot of work with the Zoomers, and what I love about it is I find that we label these generations. I'm sure mine was We are called lazy or we're not applying ourselves. The millennials were certainly about tattoos and what they wore and not wearing real shoes. But what I find to be true, first of all, I was working with brilliant people. I can tell you later about a reunion we had and share with you what I learned last year about them. But what I find is these generations are the societal shifts that are coming. And we need to embrace them and help them. I just read an article the other day that Zoomers aren't able to talk anymore with people because of COVID and being online all the time, and people perplexed about what was going to mean. And my answer was simple. Well, start talking to them, you know, carry on a conversation. And I think we have a responsibility to be mentors and listen. And learn, be willing to grow from what you're learning from them, because I know my experience, brilliant, and what they're doing today, fascinating.
Al ElliottSo you mentioned the reunion there. It sounds to me like they were not far— that now they're not far off the age you were when you were in there. So what was it like going back and seeing everyone?
Tom LeNobleWell, one thing I love is they're in their early 40s, and I love seeing them post they're in their midlife crisis because most of them are married with kids now. And I just find it really comical and reflecting about when I thought I was having a midlife crisis. In fact, people I know, I let them know when they turn 40, I want to have a conversation with them because I have a conversation with people about turning 40 and what it means. But they had this reunion. I remember getting the invite and it was the first, I don't know, 150 of us that were there. And I wasn't going to go because I thought to myself, dear God, I'm old enough to be their kids' grandfather, you know, so why would I even go there?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Tom LeNobleWell, I decided to go, and it was held at this beautiful restaurant that one of the engineers and somebody who worked on my team, who are married now, have in Cali— here in Northern California. Very nice place. And, you know, it was wonderful. They, first of all, treated me like I was a little celebrity. It felt so good. But what felt good for me was these— I call them my kids. These kids were now VCs, SVPs. They had excelled in all they were doing.
Al ElliottWow.
Tom LeNobleAnd I loved hearing their stories. My favorite part was the few of them that came up to me and looked at me and said, how did you put up with us? Because they're now managing younger people and experiencing what it's like to manage. When I left that reunion, I was driving home and I was thinking to myself, how would I sum up this evening? And it came, this came to me, the kids are all right.
Al ElliottThat must have been so heartwarming to see These people who were just chaotic in a great way, and now they— did you think they're happy? Do you think that they've evolved and your leadership has brought them, made them into good people?
Tom LeNobleI knew they would. It wasn't ever a doubt in my mind. It just never crossed my mind that they wouldn't be successful. And I'd like to think that I had a little, little tiny nudge of something that I shared with them in our time together. There's another reunion I should tell you about. So when I left Facebook, I said to Mark, I want to see you in 10 years. And he looked at me and said, why would you even want to see me? You're leaving. You know, why would you even want to? I said, I just want to see what happens, see where you ended up. So I left and went on about my business and forgot all about it. And I was sitting at my desk 10 years later and a Facebook message popped up. Still want to have lunch? I looked at that Facebook from the fifth richest man in the world at the time and asked myself, "Do you want to have lunch with the fifth richest man in the world?" To which I quickly responded, "Hell yeah!" And I decided to go there, and it was a fascinating time because they were so busy and. As always, out of space. And I learned somebody had been kicked out of their parking space to let me park, which I didn't like so much. And went through this myriad of security and finally was taken up to this floor in this building. And there was a glass conference room on one side that was Sheryl's, a glass conference room on the other side that was Mark's. So I positioned myself on the couch so I got full view of both of them. And as I sat down and looked up, I had opened a building, my own building there for just the service team, which was quickly taken over by others. But we had graffiti art everywhere in the offices, and they had taken the sheetrock and cut it out and framed it and hung it. So it was memorialized. And there was a piece right in front of me from my building. Well, soon this meeting was over and out came Mark and we said hello to each other. And the next thing I knew, there's this photographer taking pictures of us. And I think to myself, isn't this sweet? They're going to—
Al ElliottYeah.
Tom LeNobleTalk about me at the all-hands meeting or feature me in a newsletter. And in that moment, I realized I had nothing to do with that. I'm talking to the 5th richest man in the world. They want evidence in case I do something to him while I'm in the conference room. Well, I went in this conference room and there's this spread of sushi like you've never seen before. We never touched it. I was supposed to be with Mark for 30 minutes. We were together almost 45, and I went prepared. And we, we just caught up and shared some things. And as we left, he said, want to do this again in 10 years? And I said, well, if I'm around, we'll talk about why I said that because I didn't know if I'd be alive. But he said, you'll be here. And so who knows with all the changes of whether I'll get that invite. And I asked myself, would I do it again? Yeah, I would. In fact, I'd have special questions again today, this time.
Al ElliottI mean, there are so many questions there, and I wanna know what your special questions are. I wanna know when the next 10 years is up. Let's come to that in a second. But there is a more serious reason why you've written this book, and you alluded to it just then saying, not sure I'll be around. This is something you've publicly spoken about, I believe. So I believe you've— 2 or 3 times you've been given only a short period of time to live.
Tom LeNobleWell, I just shared that whole career I had and what I'm doing now, and through it all, I've had 2 life-threatening illnesses. The first when I was told was terminal. I've lived with metastatic cancer the last 14 years. I've been given 6 months to live 3 times.
Al ElliottWhat does it do to your mindset when someone says, a doctor says that to you?
Tom LeNobleYou know, the first time it was said to me, I remember I had been anonymously tested and I turned out to be positive and I went to the car and I looked in the rearview mirror and I spoke to this virus that had invaded my body and said, if you want to join the party, hello, you're welcome. If you think you're going to take me out, you're in for the fight of your life. Then I started the car and went back to work. About 3 weeks later, I was sitting in the doctor's office again after lab work and He had already told me that my time was probably limited, and he looked at me with the lab work and said, I don't know if you heard me, but you have less than 6 months to live. Do you choose to do it at your desk or doing something you enjoy? Well, I eventually went off on disability, one of the hardest things I've ever done, because I was on a fast track at a company I adored at the time. But I turned it into action, which is a theme about Tom Lenoble, in that while I stepped away and it was very difficult, I joined 5 other men and we opened the DC Buyers Club. Think of the Dallas Buyers Club like Matthew McConaughey, a little less Hollywood, probably the same number of hookers. But in this flat in DC, in the front room. We invited you in for information and a hug when no one else would because no one cared. There was no one focused on it. Once we got to know you, you were invited in the back room where we had either smuggled, imported, brought in things that we still today likely don't know what it was doing to us. We were injecting bovine thymus and doing all kinds of strange enemas because there was nothing for us. No one was coming to our rescue. So we came together. The interesting thing about this story is none of the 6 of us died of that disease. But life went on. I was on disability. I decided that my best chance at living was to either be in San Francisco or New York, and I chose San Francisco. I arrived in San Francisco a very short time, probably 6 months later, tried to get an appointment with a doctor, was on a waiting list with 3 of them. When I finally got into one who has become a dear friend, and I worked with her in her office running clinical trials and as executive director of a foundation focusing on nutrition for children who had HIV. But as I walked into her office, And heard her voice, was taken to an exam room where a picture, a photograph of my apartment was on the wall. That photograph's in my office today. She gave it to me. Her sister was a photographer, and there was a photograph of my apartment. What I knew at that moment was I had landed in the right place. Later that day, I landed in the hospital. I was there for about 2 weeks, once again hearing how tenuous my life was.
Al ElliottSo you were told you didn't have long to live. You basically told, you told the virus that there's no chance that that's, that the virus is winning. Did your life change, like in terms of your approach to work and life and values and stuff? Did that change after that period of time?
Tom LeNobleThis is a great question because I never stopped contributing. It just shifted from contributing for a paycheck to contributing through service, which is a huge part of my life today. You know, I was very sick. I went on and had, you know, really back then the treatments were really, really awful. In fact, you can read about a lot of this in the book. At one point, I was many years in and still had not been what we call suppressed. And I had been in many clinical trials. I was running them in the office. In fact, I would joke when you'd fill out a form, you had to check which drugs you take, and I had to check them. And I went back and would check them all twice because I tried them twice. Well, I entered this clinical trial that I was on 4 drugs, and you got to stop 2, add 4. So if you're counting, that's 6. And if that combination failed, you got to add one more. It did fail as they usually did, and I added that one extra 7 medications, very experimental at the time, horrible side effects, and finally was suppressed for the first time. But what this story leads me to share with you is around 1999, the end of it, I was told with my 9 T cells, you're supposed to have about 700, 600. I had 9 and I had named them. I asked people to watch over them. And I heard, this is like the best it gets. And I remember hearing that and thinking, you know, that just doesn't sound like my style. So I decided to go back to work. The doctor freaked out. The disability company gave me an extra year to fall back on. And And just to keep things spicy, I decided in the middle of the dot-com revolution to go work at a dot-com in the internet era, having missed the entire internet explosion. I remember being in Union Square, downtown San Francisco, getting a phone call offering me an executive position at one startup. And as I said yes, I felt like I was levitating off the ground. Reality hit me as I looked up and there was a men's store when I realized I had absolutely nothing to wear because we still wore suits back then. And I walked in and bought 3 suits. The great part about this story is I took my 9 T-cells there, thought, what will I do? Knew I was bright. No one knew. No one knew I was sick. No one knew that I had missed the internet revolution. The great news about this story is my health soared. Within a very few months, I had 200 T-cells. At that point, you were lifted above a marker where opportunistic infections could kill you. And some of the extra drugs I had to take, I could stop taking.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.
Tom LeNobleAnd you're not gonna say which.
Al ElliottFel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Tom LeNobleSeamless. Seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottYou said that you were going to have a reunion 10 years after you met. So if I'm working this out, you're roughly talking about 2018, '19, you had your last reunion with Mark.
Tom LeNobleActually, I think it's probably next year. So we'll see what happens. Um, um, we'll see what happens. We'll see if I ended up back in the, uh, corporate world or not. In the tickler file or whatever we call it as a reminder of have lunch with Tom LeNoble. Yeah, I'd welcome it. I'd love to do it. I fascinate sometimes, Al, because this book is out, My Life in Business Suits, Hospital Gowns, and High Heels. And during this whole work career, I was sick. And let's face it, these companies I worked for, I was an executive, they would have never hired me if they'd known I I was sick. They certainly wouldn't have hired me if they knew anything about high heels. And I fantasize that some of these people are going to pick up the book and read it and go, what the? This dude was sick? And what is this thing about high heels? You know, and I'd love to be a fly on the wall when one or two of them read it. It'd be great fun because it'd just be really interesting to see how they react to it.
Al ElliottProbably at this point, our listeners will have the same question as those previous executives. Why high heels? I've got in my head birthday, but talk to me.
Tom LeNobleWell, you know, let me tell you, I wrote this book and why is I'm an extremely private man and I just told all my secrets. In fact, my best friends, one 48 years, one 50, called me and said, what secrets can you possibly have? And I said, I have enough secrets that I changed your name in the book to, you know, to protect the innocent. And so, but I wrote this book because who we are today is the sum parts of who you've been throughout your life. In fact, with all the— without all those parts, whether they're outrageous, you feel shame for them, you just want to keep them private, or somebody just wouldn't understand, you would not be who you are today without all of those parts. So if you look at the COVID of my book, there's 3 characters. They're all me.
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Tom LeNobleAnd so we'll just go back to high heels. So I went away to, to college. I graduated high school on June 9th and started college June 12th. I think it's safe to say I was ready to get away and had lived this little sheltered life. You'll learn I grew up in a shack with no hot water and no refrigerator. It got better later, but Um, uh, I, I went away and it was a time that was explosive for me because I, for once, was free. And I, I remember I, in September of that year, I was still 17 because I had started school when I was 5. And, um, some buddies of mine and I were, were turned on to the, the local gay bar in this town, which was, um, unlike many places in big cities, people were very separate here. Everyone was together. And I remember walking in the door and it was like, oh my God, you know, it was a strip mall behind wood paneling. And I remember in the early days of being there, we would be raided every now and then. Hopefully we never go back to that again. But they would hide me in the dresses in the back room where the drag queens would get ready because there was no way out except the front door. We were being raided, so they would put me— they never smelled very good. I remember that. But fast forward, there was a talent show. And so I'm sure we had a few beers, and these— my 2 friends and I said, you know, let's enter this talent show. Well, we did. One of us was not so successful. The other 2 were big hits. But I was a theater kid, and it struck the theater in me because I had— I just was a huge success. And I thought, wow, I'm back on a stage. This is great. And then I also thought as a starving student, I could probably make money this way. Well, what evolved from that was a character named Rita Dayworth, 4 nights a week, 2 shows a night, pageants, the whole thing for a few years of my life, wearing and strutting in high heels and performing. And there's great stories in the book about some of the things that happened during that time period until I decided You know, I probably don't want to do this as a career, and I probably should get on with life. And I remember I worked in hospitals while I was going to school with really long hair, no eyebrows, and I would look up from the desk and people's reaction was sort of fun every now and then. But I ended up going to— moving to Miami and stopping all that. And I remember I took Rita with me and I put her in the attic in the house I was living in. And some years later, I moved away and I forgot all about that she was in the attic. I wish I'd saved some of those dresses. But I fantasize sometimes about the people that bought that house and discovered Rita in the attic and what their reaction to it was when they found all of these dresses and makeup and jewelry and heels and stuff. So, but that's a little story about Rita who disappeared for quite a while. But when I moved to San Francisco in total secret, she returned on Halloween.
Al ElliottWhat changes would she see in you compared to what she saw all those years ago when you forgot to put her in the attic?
Tom LeNobleNo, I think that I left her in the attic to become a different person, to move forward in my life in a different direction. It was interesting reclaiming her at one point, even though it was just for fun. She's made an appearance a very few times. One was at my wedding, of all things. We both surprised each other with something, and that was my surprise, if you can imagine. And I'll tell you, as you open the book and start to read it, I'm going to be 72 this year. On my 70th birthday party is where the book starts in the prologue. And I decided to have a party, an event for 28 of my closest friends on the top of a hotel in San Francisco at a very lovely rooftop location. I teased them for weeks about being on time. I had extraordinary songstress that was the lead in Beach Bank Babylon for years who came and was going to sing a set. And I kept telling them they needed to be on time, knowing there would be stragglers. What they didn't know, that is, after she finished her set, Rita would be introduced, come to the stage, and do 5 costume changes, 5 numbers, all in 24 minutes. 3 people there knew anything about Rita. What was wonderful about it was knowing that this book was eventually going to come out in about a year or so, was the integration of realizing personally what I was trying to share in the book, that even that outrageous part of my life, even that part that I might have felt shame for along the journey or kept hidden in private, was part of who I am today and how wonderful it was to celebrate that persona and step into it again.
Al ElliottI've got a note here about philanthropic mindset, and I think that's been a large part of what you do. The note saying something like, when I have money, I'll be a philanthropist. Is that— have I got that quote right? Did you say that?
Tom LeNobleWell, what I didn't share yet, and I love that you asked, Al, because it's the most important part of my life and why I do everything I do, is I'm actually a philanthropist. I focus on underserved communities, youth in the arts, first-gen students, current women's issues, some other things I'm extremely passionate about. And what I found is I kept that all a secret. I did it anonymously for many years. And as this book came out and I sort of came out again after 50 years, I decided that there was no need to keep hiding this part of me. I just didn't need my name in lights. That wasn't what I was about. And as I started doing that, I found that people would come to me and say, when I have money, I want to be a philanthropist like you. So it got me thinking, and I have a number of keynotes, and so I created one called The Philanthropic Mindset. Because you see, I know to be true that your smile or a hello can be a philanthropic gesture. You have no idea how you might change someone's day by saying hello or smiling or opening a door or just being present with them. Thus became the philanthropic mindset keynote that goes much deeper. The difference between a philanthropic mindset and just a regular hello. Or any other philanthropic gesture is when you expect something in return. You've then shifted the philanthropic gesture. Once you expect something in return, you've taken it and made it about yourself instead about serving someone else. Many people think it is about writing a check, your name on a building, going to a gala, and hey, if they're donating, great, but that's not what it was about for me and doesn't have to be about that for you, because some of us can have a simpler— I work with a lot of nonprofits as part of my business today, and I always remind them that the $1,000 check or the donation of 4 quarters is far more the same than different. It comes from someone's wealth. It comes from the same spirit of giving. It has the same energy. And while you can do more with a $1,000 check, never forget that a bunch of quarters adds up to a lot of money.
Al ElliottYou mentioned something there, and please correct me if I've misunderstood this, but I think you said you came out again after 50 years. Does that mean that you hadn't been out at work in some of these places?
Tom LeNobleNo, I kind of meant it in jest of after coming out at 17, I kind of did it again with this book. But to your question, which is really good, I never hid who I was, but I never was what we are able to do in most places today. Today there are— you can have LGBTQ groups within companies and those things. Those didn't exist back in the day. And unfortunately, like many other things where you could be targeted or branded. That was one of the things. I never really hid it. I think most people assumed if they knew or thought they knew that I was partnered the whole time and I just was private, which I was. So, you know, back in those days, it wasn't something that I overtly hid, but I also didn't overtly put it out there.
Al ElliottNow I've got a note down here, retired from being retired to being Be inspired or to inspire? Because there's a big difference.
Tom LeNobleI retired being retired to be inspired. My life's work and purpose is I am an inspirator. I inspire others to take action to reach their goals and dreams. You know, this reminds me, Al, of another keynote I have called Living Fully While Dying. The first phase The first is living fully without regard to dying. The second phase is living fully while I was being told I was dying. The third phase is living fully, realizing I was dying all along. When you are born, you're going to die. Some of us get longer, some of us get shorter.
Al ElliottYeah.
Tom LeNobleI find so many people in my practice who live in the past as if there's going to be a do-over, as if like our phone, when we watch a video, there's a little button that says, go back 10 seconds. Life is not like that. Learn what you need to learn. Come here in the present because we have this one wonderful life that we get to live. What are you going to do with it? How are you going to live it? Don't get too far in the future. Because remember, we woke up today. Some people didn't.
Al ElliottYeah. Sobering thought. I mean, just thinking about it, if you are under the impression, although you weren't, but you had been told that you'd got a limited amount of, limited number of days left in your life, which of course we all do, but yours was even more limited. I'm curious. I think a lot of listeners would question you saying, I went straight back to work because one of the regrets of the dying, the famous essay of the 7 regrets of the dying, people saying, I regret spending so much time at the office, whereas it sounds like you actively went back to the office. So talk me through your thinking of that.
Tom LeNobleYou know, Al, for me, and I'm not— everybody's different, and I don't want to take away from what illness is for different people because it can be very difficult. In fact, remind me to tell you about terrible gifts. But back to your question, you know, the 3rd time I was given 6 months to live, I went in a doctor's office, my cancer returned. I've had enough radiation that I could be your nightlight. You could put me in the corner of the living room and nobody would stumble at night. I would glow. I mean, I glow in the dark. And the third time I got this, they said to me, the cancer has come back in five places. We can't do anything for you. And you know, I knew what was coming next. And so I chuckled. Now, if you want to upset a few doctors, chuckle when they tell you. They're getting ready to tell you you have a few months to live. But you see, I knew something at that point. I knew that if I was going to die, I had already dealt with that thought. I already knew what I would do with that time, whatever was left. But I also knew that that never had panned out quite that way because I looked at what was possible versus what was impossible. I knew that information was key. I'd already learned that if you can keep yourself alive, there's something coming along. And if nothing else, it feels better. So that's how I approached that, was really, how do I face reality? It's back to this living in the past. Our reality is what it is today. Start here. I love this story. I know this woman who's kind of on an Olympiad level. She went in the hospital for minor surgery, got MRSA, lost her leg. She's sitting in her wheelchair, cane, and walking stick that she really dislikes, thinking about what's going to happen with her life. Today, this woman owns a global business making the most beautiful walking sticks and canes for people around the world so that when people see them, they see something different than their disability or that they have a handicap. of some sort. She got what I call a terrible gift. What's a terrible gift? We all have things happen in our life that we wouldn't wish upon anybody, much less ourselves. We lose somebody we love, a relationship ends, our pet dies, a disaster happens, God forbid, and we are impacted by it. We get sick.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottTerrible.
Tom LeNobleWhat I have learned, if we're open to it, whether it's a month, a year, or 5 years, there's a gift from it. It all has to do with the perspective of, am I going to live in the past of what happened, or am I going to be present with what's occurring, thinking about how I use resilience, how I take risks, how I reinvent myself, To move forward.
Al ElliottI'd like to stick with you on this idea of resilience because I think with the number of companies that you've been involved in, the number of people that you've managed, the HR departments you've been involved in, I think you know an awful lot about resilience. So this is by no means life-ending, but it sounds like it is at the time when you go bankrupt, when you have to lay 100 people off, when you have to close a business, These are all things that affect founders and very, very difficult to not take it personally. So have you come across anything like this? Anything like this happened to you? Any advice for someone who's going through something like this in business?
Tom LeNobleAbsolutely. You know, um, you know, not only was I sick the whole time, my thing when I went to a meeting wasn't about where the meeting was located, it's where the bathroom was located was usually my first thing to check out. But, you know, I can remember I had— I worked for this startup and we were kind of running out of money and we had made it through dot-com and I think it was Microsoft or some big company was trying to buy us and we had this window for the due diligence to happen that just wasn't going to happen. And I ended up laying off over 100 people one day on my birthday, by the way.
Al ElliottWow.
Tom LeNobleBut you see, I have a philosophy about how you do these things. In fact, I had some people ask me to come in as a consultant to help them in their companies take these actions that were happening a lot then. You know, it's really important when these things happen. These people that are being laid off didn't do anything wrong. In fact, some of them are superstars. How do you help them leave with their head held high? How do you offer them things that will help them realize that it wasn't about them? How do you build up their strengths? How do you take the time to write the letter to make sure that whoever they're going to talk to knows that this wasn't about them? How do you make yourself available to take those calls if you need to? Because in this situation, nobody did fraud. Nobody did anything that was bad. It's about the company. And what I've learned in my practice, what I've learned in years of doing this, is so many people turn their eyeballs and make it about them. I coach many people today that are in that situation of having lost their job. What I find most is they've got one foot going forward, one foot in the past. Go outside and try it, you won't get very far. It's how do we get that other foot to join you in the future so you can move forward? So it was taking action of doing things so people Yes, it was not good. Yes, it wasn't what you would desire, but how do you do it and do it in a way where people leave with their head held high? One of my favorite things that happened to that company is— didn't think it was my favorite thing at the time, but that's what resilience and growth is about. Because I see resilience as not just getting back up, it's how did you grow from it? Is after I laid everybody off, I had a skeleton crew of about 5 people. Over a 6-week period, they went down to 2, and then I was the last person. On the last day, as I realized I had to close the office and take the key to the building management, I had one more action to take. I needed to lay off myself. I had never been laid off, and I was going to lay off myself. And as I stood at the front door locking it, I looked across this sea of desks. And what I noticed was tape dispensers and hole punchers and how many times I had approved those purchases. I picked up a tape dispenser and a hole puncher and took it with me as I went and turned in the keys. I laid myself off. I knew firsthand what it felt like, and I got to either use my own resilience and practice what I teach. by using that to keep my own head high as I moved forward or not. It reinforced everything that I had been doing, and I knew what it felt like personally at that moment.
Al ElliottTom, what a fascinating conversation. This is definitely a book that is going to be on my bookshelf very, very soon. Tell me if people want to learn a bit more about you, or perhaps if they've read the book and they want to get in touch, what's the best way to find you?
Tom LeNobleWell, you can find me on my website, www.tomlenoble.com. I'm on LinkedIn.
Al ElliottI'm on all the socials.
Tom LeNobleBut you can also just reach out directly to me. My email address is resilience@tomlenoble.com. My team gets horrified when I do that, but I'm the only one answering it, so I don't know why they get horrified. It doesn't require them to do anything, and I love to hear from people. So resilience@tomlenoble.com.
Al ElliottThat was Tom LeNoble, and that might be one of the most extraordinary lives we've ever heard compressed into a single interview.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely incredible. And as always, we have 3 top takeaways. We could have picked 20.
Al ElliottWe could.
Leanne ElliottBut here is 3. Number 1, resilience isn't just getting back up, it's what you grow into. Tom's definition of resilience is specifically about growth, not just recovery. So, ask yourself after every setback, what did this make possible that wouldn't have been possible otherwise?
Al ElliottThe second lesson is how you treat people on the way out defines your culture more than how you treat them on the way in. Remember, Tom laid off over 100 people on his birthday and was meticulous about every single person leaving with their head held high. That is true leadership.
Leanne ElliottAnd lesson 3, the philanthropic mindset costs nothing. A smile, a hello, holding a door. When you give without expecting anything in return. That's philanthropy. You don't need a check, you need the intention.
Al ElliottTom's book is My Life in Business Suits, Hospital Gowns and High Heels. Find him at tomlinoble.com, or as he mentioned, drop him a line directly at resilience@tomlinoble.com. He really does answer emails himself.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work. We will see you next week.