Episode 284 · 17 March 2026 · 54:10
Corporate Bullshit, new-collar jobs and interview red flags. PLUS! Are Morning People More Successful?
Corporate Bullshit, new-collar jobs and interview red flags. PLUS! Are Morning People More Successful?
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Story 1 — The Corporate Bullshit Receptivity Scale
news roundup#corporate-culture#bullshit#workplace
Story 2 — The rise of 'new-collar' jobs
news roundup#new-collar-jobs#hiring#skills
Story 3 — Would you walk out of a messy interview?
news roundup#interview#recruiting#job-search
Truth or Lie — Are morning people more successful?
truth or lie#morning-people#success#productivity
Workplace Surgery — the toxic high-performer
workplace surgery#toxic-employee#high-performer#management
Workplace Surgery — the 'silent' meeting
workplace surgery#meetings#silent-meeting#workplace
Workplace Surgery — the overwhelmed founder
workplace surgery#founder#overwhelm#entrepreneurship
Show notes
Corporate Bullshit, New-Collar Jobs & Interview Red Flags — PLUS! Are Morning People More Successful?
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the new science of "Corporate Bullshit," explore why a university degree might be holding your hiring back, and debunk the toxic productivity of the 3:50 AM wake-up call. Plus, in Truth or Lie: are morning people actually more successful, or is it just social jetlag?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. The science of "Corporate Bullshit" Leanne introduces the Corporate Bullshit Receptivity Scale — a real psychological measure developed from Cornell University research. "Corporate bullshit" is defined as semantically empty jargon used in a functionally misleading way. The finding? People who find vague, jargon-heavy statements profound tend to score lower on analytical thinking and decision-making. In the workplace, rewarding this language leads to worse decisions and a culture of performance over substance.
2. The rise of "new-collar" jobs A term coined by the former CEO of IBM, "new-collar" jobs are highly skilled, well-paid roles in AI, cybersecurity, and tech that don't require a traditional university degree. The Bureau of Labor Statistics predicts 60% of new jobs created between 2020 and 2030 will be new-collar. Yet despite the talent shortage, 60% of employers still reject candidates with the right skills simply because they lack a degree.
3. Would you walk out of a messy interview? A viral Reddit story sparks a debate on candidate experience. A senior tech and product professional ended their application process after a recruiter missed the first meeting and was late to the second. The lesson? Your hiring process is a direct signal of your company culture. If communication is messy before day one, candidates assume it's messy on the inside.
🧠 Truth or Lie: Are Morning People More Successful?
Is the 5:00 AM (or 3:50 AM!) alarm truly the secret to success, or are we just glorifying sleep deprivation?
The Truth: Studies show "larks" often earn 4-5% more than "owls" and perform better in school. A 2023 Finnish longitudinal study tracked over 5,000 people from birth; a 2012 Danish study found the same pattern.
The Lie: This isn't because morning people are more disciplined. It's because the world — schools and 9-5 offices — is built for their biology. When "owls" are forced into "lark" schedules, they experience social jetlag, higher cortisol levels, and increased risk of depression and anxiety.
The Verdict: It's not untrue. But it is nuanced, and context really matters.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- The toxic high-performer: What to do when your top talent is quietly damaging team morale.
- The "silent" meeting: How do you handle it when the same two people dominate every conversation? Leanne shares tips on balancing participation without it feeling forced. (Check out their deep dive on meetings here: What if meetings were the best part of your day?)
- The overwhelmed founder: Transitioning from "doing the work" to "leading others."
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Leanne ElliottThis episode contains coarse language. Listener discretion is advised. Coming up this week in work, would you take the job if a recruiter ghosted you twice? One candidate has just gone viral for walking out after a double no-show. Is a messy interview process just a mistake, or is it a massive red flag for a toxic culture?
Al ElliottAnd what if you just What if you skipped university and did an online course instead? Would that be enough to get you a job in 2026? The ex-CEO of IBM seems to think so. More on that and his new word shortly.
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, does getting up at 5 AM actually make you more successful? Your feed is probably full of people banging on about their morning routines, all the cold plunges at dawn and journaling before breakfast. But is the science actually behind it, or are we just glorifying sleep deprivation and calling it discipline?
Al ElliottAnd in this week's Workplace Surgery, what if the same 2 people were the ones to speak up at every single meeting? Are they proving they're natural leaders or just preventing the others from speaking? Leanne has some thoughts.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner, and I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to.
Leanne ElliottAnd my name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist, and I'm here to answer them. And together we help you simplify the science of work and build Amazing workplace coaches.
Al ElliottWe're gonna be right back after a quick word from our sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation, into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello. Hello. Welcome back. Welcome back. Uh, Lee, what's been going on this week?
Leanne ElliottWe bought a house.
Al ElliottWe bought a house. Oh, good God. Yeah, we bought a house. Terrified. Honestly, is what, is it Tuesday? And it feels like it's, it feels like it's Friday.
Leanne ElliottIt's Friday.
Al ElliottFriday. Stressful. So basically last week on Friday, went up to, up north to North Bosnia to a company called Krivaja Homes. Very famous.
Leanne ElliottShout out Krivaja.
Al ElliottYeah, very famous. Discount, please. Uh, well, no, it's too late.
Leanne ElliottWe signed too late now.
Al ElliottSo we went up there and we spent a Friday with them and then Monday and then Tuesday, uh, well, early Tuesday with them and, um, or early today with them. And basically We signed a contract to build a house.
Leanne ElliottTo build a house.
Al ElliottIn Bosnia. So those of you who may not know, we live in Herzegovina, which is part of Bosnia and Herzegovina next to Croatia. We have bought a parcel of land about 6 kilometres from the Croatian border. It's a lovely spot. It's in the—
Leanne ElliottIt's a lovely little plot.
Al ElliottIt's a lovely little plot. And yeah, it's in the middle of nature, no real neighbours, and we're building a house and we've never built a house before. In fact, fun fact, Leanne, what have we never done?
Leanne ElliottWell, lots of things. Lived in a house that we've both owned.
Al ElliottYeah, we've never actually owned a house together.
Leanne ElliottNo, I've never owned a house. This is my first house.
Al ElliottAnd this is my, well, I don't wanna go into how many houses we've got, but we, we have a property company.
Leanne Elliott84.
Al ElliottWe have a property company. So, so yes, I have a couple of houses, um, but I own some of them with a business partner. But yeah, this is the first one we're buying together. So.
Leanne ElliottThat's nice. That's exciting, isn't it?
Al ElliottIt is exciting. It is exciting.
Leanne ElliottWhat could possibly go wrong?
Al ElliottThat's the thing. If you've ever, if you've ever built your own house, This is timber frame, by the way. If you've ever built your own house, then get in touch. Give us some advice.
Leanne ElliottYeah, please.
Al ElliottWhat went wrong? What did we not think about?
Leanne ElliottDesign tips.
Al ElliottDesign tips. Yeah, it's simultaneously terrifying and exciting. I didn't sleep that well last night. Anyway, Leanne, anything else before we—
Leanne ElliottYes. Before we crack on, I'd like to say hello to some new listeners. Marissa. Hi. Nice to have you with us. Who else? Charlie. Who is coming on one of our LinkedIn Lives. She is listening and she's like, oh my God, it's so good.
Al ElliottHello, Charlie.
Leanne ElliottHi, Charlie. And hopefully Tasha.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottWe don't know. She was looking for podcast recommendations. Our name came up. I said we were dropping her name every episode until she confirmed she's listening. So Tash, this is your first warning. Hello.
Al ElliottIf you, if you, if you get in touch and let us know that you heard this, Tash, then we will send you something lovely. We won't. I'll just send you a picture of our— of the house we're going to build.
Leanne ElliottBut you'll send me something. We should get merch.
Al ElliottWe should get merch.
Leanne ElliottOh, what would you put on the t-shirts?
Al ElliottUm, Science of Simplifying Work.
Leanne ElliottNo, that's boring. Boring, isn't it? If you do one thing.
Al ElliottIf you do one thing.
Leanne ElliottCue the jingle.
Al ElliottCue the jingle. And then we could just put on there, it's time for the world famous work— and just deliberately get some words wrong because I get it wrong every single week. What I don't get wrong every single week is it's time for your favourite thing of the week, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottIt is our It's News Roundup. Cue that jingle.
Al ElliottJingle is being cued.
Leanne ElliottWhat have you Got a new word.
Al ElliottGo on.
Leanne ElliottIt's not really a new word, but there's some new research behind this word, and this is why I put in my little disclaimer at the beginning. My word is corporate bullshit.
Al ElliottThat's not a new word.
Leanne ElliottI know, but tell me what you think it means.
Al ElliottI think it means just stuff that corporates come out as bullshit, like we shall circle round and circle back and—
Leanne ElliottPut a pin in it.
Al ElliottPut a pin in it and run up the flagpole and all that kind of stuff.
Leanne ElliottBlue sky thinking.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSynergistic leadership.
Al ElliottOh, synergy. Oh, the word synergy. Do you know what? When I went to university, they said, God, this is 1732. I went on a horse and cart. And, um, yeah, and, and I did 2 years of a— no, 1 year of a course, um, in management, and they just kept the word synergy. God, if we had a drinking game with the word synergy, I think even by then, within the first 10 minutes, I would have been just really drunk because it was, it was such— anyway, I'm sorry. What's, what's so Tell me more.
Leanne ElliottYeah, corporate bullshit. It's all the phrases that sound impressive but don't actually mean anything. What is the interesting and new thing about this is a study has just come out from Cornell University. A psychologist called Shane Littrell looked into corporate bullshit properly and started by defining it. So officially, the definition is— I'm going to try and do this without getting it wrong— a semantically empty and often confusing style of communication in organisational contexts that leverages obtuse corporate buzzwords and jargon in a functionally misleading way.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottJust slightly ironic because I, I kind of need a translation for that.
Al ElliottSounds like bullshit. That's academic bullshit.
Leanne ElliottNo, it's not, Shane. It's lovely. Don't— I've reached out to Shane. I'm trying to get him on the show. We love you, Shane. It's great work. Basically, it sounds smart.
Al ElliottYou sound like Sarah Cox there. I love it.
Leanne ElliottIt's words that sound smart, but they don't really mean anything.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottSo this is what the study looked at, right? So across a series of studies, they asked participants to read and rate different kinds of statements. So some were really actually meaningful statements about leadership or strategy. So things like, clear goals improve team performance, or leaders who give regular feedback tend to see higher engagement. Simple, direct, you know what you need to do with it. Others were what they call pseudo-profound statements. So things that are grammatically correct and sound good, but don't mean anything. So the examples were hidden meaning transforms unparalleled abstract beauty.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottWholeness, quiet, infinite phenomena.
Al ElliottOh God.
Leanne ElliottSound very deep, but—
Al ElliottDo you know what that sounds like? It sounds like one of those passwords. You know, there's passwords where it's a phrase.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWholeness, quiet, infinite phenomena. That sounds like what it sounds like.
Leanne ElliottAlso sounds a bit like a Harry Potter spell.
Al ElliottYes, it does.
Leanne ElliottWholeness, quiet, infinite phenomena. Did you see that on the YouTube? You know, Robert— is it Rupert Grint who plays the ginger kid in Harry Potter?
Al ElliottI've never seen a Harry Potter, but go on.
Leanne ElliottRon. He plays Ron in Harry Potter. He was, he was papped at a petrol station when the prices were quite high and you could see the guy filming him. So he held up his pump and went, expensive petroleum.
Al ElliottHe sounds like a funny guy.
Leanne ElliottHe is a funny guy.
Al ElliottI get him mixed up with Ed Sheeran.
Leanne ElliottCarry on. Yeah, understandable, really. And then there was a third group. They heard specific corporate-style phrases. So the previous one was like, it doesn't make sense, it's not about anything. These are specifically like corporate-based, it doesn't make sense, it's not about anything. So things like, we need to leverage our synergies to maximize strategic alignment, or let's ideate a future-forward solution to drive impact.
Al ElliottMaking me feel sick.
Leanne ElliottI know, but you're gonna like this, Al. You're gonna like how this turns out.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo for each of these groups, participants had to rate how profound, meaningful, or insightful they thought the statement was. And they also measured a few other things at the same time. So participants completed tasks based on analytical thinking. So cognitive reflection tasks, for example, where you have to kind of override your first instinct and then think more carefully. Do you know what I mean? Like, kind of, what's going on here? Then they looked at decision-making, numeracy, personality traits, and attitudes towards authority. So they weren't just looking at the jargon and whether somebody likes it, they were kind of looking at what does somebody who likes the jargon also typically have in terms of intelligence, personality factors.
Al ElliottGot it.
Leanne ElliottThey then created from this, and this is my favourite part, the Corporate Bullshit Receptivity Scale.
Al ElliottI love it. I love it.
Leanne ElliottReceptivity. How do you say that?
Al ElliottYou made me choke then. Sorry.
Leanne ElliottReceptivity.
Al ElliottReceptivity?
Leanne ElliottReceptivity.
Al ElliottOkay. Yep.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottCBRS. Yes.
Leanne ElliottThe CBRS. But I love that its official name that a psychologist has given it, which is why I love Shane, is the Corporate Bullshit Receptivity Scale.
Al ElliottBrilliant.
Leanne ElliottWhy can't I say that word? Anyway, it's a way of scoring. How likely someone is to interpret vague jargon heaven statements as meaningful. And here is a key finding, Al, that I think you're gonna like.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottPeople who are more receptive to corporate bullshit, so the people who rate those kind of vague empty statements as very profound, also tend to score low on analytical, analytical thinking and decision-making.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottSo really simply, the more someone buys into the jargon, the less strong they tend to be actually thinking about stuff. Or what some people might say, less intelligent.
Al ElliottSee, now I think the same people who, who, who say things like this or go, oh yes, that's very profound, I like that, are the same people who open their laptop on a train and get their, get their phone out and go, yeah, yeah, sorry, can't really talk, but I'm on the train. I'm going to a meeting. You know those people who are just like really, really like, oh, come on.
Leanne ElliottThat Dom Joly's tittanic of naughty. Mm-hmm.
Al ElliottGod, if you remember Dom Jolly, it's amazing.
Leanne ElliottDoodly doodly doodly doodly.
Al ElliottMy favorite one was he was in a play. He's brilliant. So if you might remember this, listener, he was in a play and he basically, he would play the old Nokia theme tune and he'd pull out a big phone and shout into it. And he's in the front row of the play and he went, diddly doodly doodly doodly. And he went, hello, am I in a play? And then there was a pause. He went, not really. Oh my God. I just, I thought it was, it was one of the funniest things I've seen. Anyway, I'm sorry I took us off track.
Leanne ElliottNo, it also actually builds on, um, some previous research that I can't— I'm not sure if it's this one or like another paper on this, but I swear to God the paper was called You Can't Bullshit a Bullshitter.
Al ElliottBrilliant.
Leanne ElliottSo anyway, I can't remember if it's this paper. Don't come for me if it isn't. And if you want, if you want the actual reference, I will go find it for you. But it builds on earlier research that basically showed that people who Engage in corporate bullshit, who talk a lot of corporate bullshit, are often the same people who believe in it.
Al ElliottRight, yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo also, if you are looking at somebody thinking that's all corporate bullshit, but reassured in the fact that they're probably not as good at decision-making as you are, or analytical thinking as you are— and on a serious note, actually, if you are in an organisation where this is kind of being rewarded and normalised, it probably gives you a really good indication that the organisation probably isn't making the best decisions that it could, because it all sounds impressive, but doesn't really mean much.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, there you go. Corporate bullshit.
Al ElliottLink in the show notes.
Leanne ElliottOur What We've Seen This Week.
Al ElliottSo I've got a new word for you.
Leanne ElliottOoh.
Al ElliottI know. It's called new-collar jobs. So it's kind of a play on the whole blue-collar jobs. You know, blue-collar, white-collar. Blue-collar tend to be trades. I know you all know this, but just in case someone's I've not come across the term. Blue collar tends to be trades. Uh, white collar tends to be more like sort of—
Leanne ElliottKnowledge-based.
Al ElliottKnowledge-based, office, that kind of thing. Well, this new one, which was— let me just have a check. It was the former CEO of IBM came up with this. Uh, and a new-collar job is basically, it's a job where you don't need a degree. Now, what— let me, let me just explain because you might as well say, well, you know, degreeless jobs, but there's a bit of a thing, a bit of a stigma about Makes you— makes some people go, oh, well, you don't have to be particularly clever. And this is kind of the opposite. It's saying, why go and spend 4 years at university to go and learn something when you could actually do a course at the weekend and know more? Now, this doesn't apply to something where you want to be a doctor. Like, you couldn't just go and watch a couple of YouTube videos and then go, yeah, I'm going to go and do some brain surgery. But this is definitely more relevant for the more sort of technical stuff.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottRight now. So let me see, I've got a stat here somewhere. Bureau of Labor Statistics reckons that 60% of new jobs between 2020 and 2030 will be new collar. 60%. That is an awful lot. So an example would be a cybersecurity analysis, or analyst, sorry, or maybe someone who builds AI agents, or funnily enough, medical assistant came up from this.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIt's vocational-based medical system. You don't have to go to university to be a medical assistant. You knew that.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah. Arguably accountants could be classed as new collar. You don't have to have a degree to become an accountant.
Al ElliottWe've got a very good friend, Paul Barnes, who mainly takes on apprentices and then builds them up using vocational. And the whole point of this is that you can just go and do a course. And more importantly, if you went to university and learnt how AI worked by the year 4, you'll be completely out of date. What you just learnt in year 1.
Leanne ElliottYep.
Al ElliottThoughts before I go on?
Leanne ElliottI don't think I have any.
Al ElliottCool. Well, I thought it was interesting.
Leanne ElliottMakes sense.
Al ElliottIt does. I thought it was interesting for a couple of reasons, because those people who are perhaps younger or school leavers or whatever, traditionally, um, certainly my age and your age, I think as well, we were encouraged very much to go to university.
Leanne ElliottOh, very much so.
Al ElliottYep. That's where you go and get— you go to university, go and get a good job, etc., etc., by our boomer parents.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottOr very elderly Gen X parents. Whereas now we're just saying, you don't have to do that. You can just do a weekend course. Now I do keep saying weekend course, but the other thing is if you're changing careers at like 40, for example, you wanna change careers, you don't have to go back to university or school, as they say in America. So case in point, Anthropic, which is the company behind Claude, has an entire library of free courses on Skilljar, which is like an online course.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottUm, where it's completely free. There's no fees, there's no tuition. You can sit there and it's just your time. So theoretically, you could go from knowing nothing about AI to being pretty much a specialist level.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottIf you did a week, like 2 or 3 hours a night, uh, for a week. So there you go. I think that's, that's, uh, personally, I think that's a great idea because going to university, you're gonna probably these days be what, Hundreds of—
Leanne Elliottlots of debt.
Al ElliottYeah, lots of debt. And there you go.
Leanne ElliottMy only thing would be that uni isn't just about teaching you something, is it? It's teaching you how— at least my degree was— it was teaching how to think, how to analyse things, how to criticise things, how to question things, how to research things. Independent learning was very much a part of that as well. So I think there's more to it than just coming out of university with a piece of paper that says you've got a degree. And even if that specific knowledge you learn becomes outdated, which it inevitably will no matter what you do, you know, a doctor's medical degree now is going to look very different than it did 15 years ago or 20 years ago.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo I don't know, I think there's still value in university, but I think it is very expensive. And if there's a better route to go down to get the qualification or knowledge you need to get the job that you want, then it's probably a better idea, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah, I suppose also if you're at university, you learn how to live independently as well. If, yeah, if you live away from home, which is probably quite—
Leanne Elliottand you also learn socially how to deal with people because you'd meet a lot more people who would vary, yeah, much more diverse than your regular normal circle depending on where you grew up.
Al ElliottYes, exactly. Exactly. And yeah, and from different parts of the country, you learn about accents, you learn about—
Leanne ElliottSoutherners.
Al ElliottSoutherners. What else have you seen this week? Oh, by the way, link in the show notes, obviously. This was in— let me just double-check on my notes. Where was this? This was in Work Human, but also I did also see it in everygirl.com or something.
Leanne ElliottWhat are you doing on everygirl.com?
Al ElliottIs that right?
Leanne ElliottI don't think I've ever heard of it. I'm just wondering what you're doing there.
Al ElliottI don't care about my feed. And I'm like, okay, what's this? Interesting. Yeah, carry on. What else have we seen?
Leanne ElliottWould you take the job if the recruiter ghosted you twice?
Al ElliottNo. Well, no, hang on. So just explain what you mean by ghosting, just in case anyone doesn't know.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I must admit, this was the headline of the, of the article, which I can't remember where I saw it, actually. Where did I see it? It was, it was somewhere. Was it this one? I don't know. I'll leave a link.
Al ElliottIt was on the internet.
Leanne ElliottIt was on, it was on the internet. And this was the headline. And when I read into it, it's like, this isn't actually ghosting because ghosting means like you'll never hear from this person ever, ever, ever, ever again.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottI think it was really just bad manners. They were late. So this was basically picked up from a thread on Reddit. A job candidate had been basically No, sorry, what's this? Where am I going? Al, help!
Al ElliottSo you saw it on Reddit and we're talking about, um—
Leanne ElliottYes, so a job candidate, after ending— he ended an interview early when a recruiter missed their first meeting entirely and then turned up late to the rescheduled one.
Al ElliottOh, that would annoy me.
Leanne ElliottYeah, that would really annoy me as well. It was shared on Reddit. It came from a senior tech and product professional who had applied for a role And after about a month was invited to interview. That's, that's bad. That's like red flag one. They agreed a time for a call. The next day, the recruiter didn't show up.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottThe candidate waited 17 minutes and then followed up. I would have followed up after 10, probably. The recruiter replied around 20 minutes after that, apologising and saying they thought the meeting was on a different day. So the candidate was like, frustrating, but I'll push it off and we'll agree to reschedule. Second call, the recruiter was late again.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottAt that point, the candidate decided to end the process entirely, saying the experience pointed to deeper issues about how the company operated. The reaction on Reddit was actually pretty, pretty unanimous. They backed the candidate. They also thought this was not, not cool, stating brilliantly The interviews aren't just about assessing candidates. They're one of the clearest signals of how the organisation actually works. It was all a bit messy in that first interaction. You know, you might assume it's a one-off. If you get a messy second interaction, then that's a trend, isn't it? Anyway, our thoughts.
Al ElliottSomeone once said to me that if you're— I know it's a famous thing, but if you're on time, you're late or something like that. And I'm a huge believer of that. And you know what? If you're ever going to be interviewed by a If you ever want me to be in a really good mood with you, then be there like as soon as I log in, 5 minutes early. If you're already there, then I'm already like, wow, that's amazing. Um, because I think it's just, I mean, what we don't know about the recruiters is potentially the recruiter might have been having a bad week. The recruiter might, this might have only happened once and the recruiter's mortified it's happened the same, well, not once, twice, but to the same person. But yeah, it does, it does seem Put those 3 things together, not replying for about 20 days, you say, and then the first one not turning up, second one being late, I'd be like, no, no, I'm totally with the candidate. That's no good. Um, I don't know, in this economy, perhaps people don't have the freedom or the luxury to be able to go, well, I won't bother then, thank you very much. But, um, uh, yeah, I definitely wouldn't feel very good about it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, like you say, we've all done it. I did it this week, to be honest. Jane. I was meant to have a catch-up with Jane, but we were driving. I was like, oh no, I'm so sorry, I meant to reschedule this, didn't, blah blah blah. She was very understanding. But you— it happens, and, and I feel bad when it does, and I equally find it frustrating when it's done to me. It is, you know, it's about respecting people's time, is it? And I hate, I hate for anyone to think that I don't respect their time. The thing is, this points to something that is actually really important in psychology. Research, and it's a candidate experience. And it's something that the British Psychological Society will have like pages and pages of guidelines on in terms of what— how candidates should be treated as they move through a recruitment process. And it's not something I really hear anyone talk about that much, including, including Oxites. But it is these things like it should be a clear and easy process, communication should be very transparent and very accurate, interviews should be very respectful respectfully dealt with. Things should be personalized. Speed is important in terms of the space between application and feedback, or application interview, and then interviewing, finding out what the outcome is. It all kind of prevents the best talent from, yeah, seeing the red flags, disengaging from the process, and going to one of your competitors. So this isn't something you've thought about as a business owner. You really, really should. And it's not really that hard. It's basic stuff that probably just starts with kind of a review of your current recruitment journey. And often the simplest thing is having one person who's like project managing it. It's like a project. Like, why aren't people project managing their recruitment process? You need one person to kind of lead that through. Anyway, Al's yawning at me, so, uh, should we move on?
Al ElliottI'm sorry, I'm not. It's just like you said, it feels like we've done 7 days' work in 7 hours today. Um, if, if you are a business owner, then you You already probably know how you onboard a client and how you, uh, or how you sell to a customer or just treat your employees the same way. They are inter— they're internal customers. And, you know, and if you think, God, they'll be, they, they, they should be pleased and grateful they've got a job with me in the first place. Well, what are you listening to us for?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSounds like you're—
Leanne ElliottI'm sure we're for you.
Al ElliottYeah, we're not for you. Tell you what might be for you though, listener, is Truth or Lie, which is coming up just after the break. And we're gonna be talking about morning people and all those. We've already done it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottFor profanity. Warning, haven't we?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottAll those wankers who put their faces in sparkling water and then post it on, on, on Instagram. So we will see you in a few seconds.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands Are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. This is Truth or Lie. As you know, the part of the show where we take a popular idea and I ask Leanne, Does the evidence actually back this up? Now, if you've been anywhere near the internet recently, you may have come across a guy called Ashton Hall. He's— he is— what we've got here is a 29-year-old fitness influencer who went viral this year for his morning routine. You've probably seen it. So he apparently wakes up at 3:50 in the morning. He works out, he goes for a swim, then he rubs banana peels in his face, then he dunks his head in a bowl of Saratoga sparkling water. The video got over, let me just check, 100 million views on TikTok and 700 million on X. But it was, and I remember this distinctly, very widely mocked, very widely shared, and accidentally caused a national run on sparkling water. Now, Ashton Hall obviously is an extreme even by the standards of morning culture or morning routine culture, but he is probably the most visible example of this much broader idea that's been building for years. This is the belief that waking up early is what separates high achievers like me from everyone else. Tim Cook apparently is 3:45 AM. Michelle Obama, 4:30 AM. Al Elliott, usually about quarter to 8. There's also, as Leanne will tell you, there's an entire manosphere ecosystem built around the idea that real men and successful men, they're disciplined men, they're up before the sun.
Leanne ElliottGrrr.
Al ElliottExactly. And this isn't actually that new because I remember, I remember back in 2000 and 5, I went bankrupt and I had to rebuild everything. And I remember reading all the books and then going, yes. So, you know, eat that frog, be up at 5. Do you do all your, your, what, not permutations, what's it called when your manifestations, then go for a run and then you've done more before 7 than most people have done all day. Le, I believe we can sum this up in one question. Are morning people actually more successful?
Leanne ElliottExcellent question.
Al ElliottThank you very much. It was, it felt like it was a long lead up to that.
Leanne ElliottI'm sorry.
Al ElliottIt was good.
Leanne ElliottIt required the context though, I think.
Al ElliottDo you think so?
Leanne ElliottYeah, it did.
Al ElliottIt did. Well done to those people who skipped forward 30 seconds through my diatribe.
Leanne ElliottLet's start, shall we, by defining what we mean by morning person in terms of the science and psychology.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo in the research, it's called a chronotype.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottAnd it basically means it's our body's natural preference for when it sleeps and when it's awake.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo it's not when your alarm goes off, it's when your body, left to its own devices, would naturally Do things, wake up, go to sleep. Here's the important part. It's pretty biological. So your chronotype is driven by your internal body clock, which is a system that your brain uses to regulate when it feels alert and when you feel sleepy and how it measures time. Fun fact, my undergrad dissertation was on the internal clock.
Al ElliottWas it?
Leanne ElliottPerception of time. Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, yeah, it was. So it's not a habit, it's physiology. And because it's biological, it's largely fixed. And you can force yourself to wake up earlier. Of course you can. But your body's underlying preference doesn't really change. And over time, if you don't have to be up, it will pull you back to your natural rhythms. So that's what the science describes as a morning person. But what time makes a morning person? What time does a morning person make?
Al ElliottThis is such a typical psychologist question. I'm saying, are morning people successful? You're going, yes, but what is a morning person?
Leanne ElliottWe need to define a morning person first, right? So researchers divide people into 2 groups basically, and they've given them names. You're gonna like this. We've got the larks.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottWho are the morning types, naturally go to bed before 11 PM and wake up before 8 AM. And then we have the owls, the evening types, naturally go to bed after 11 PM and wake up after 8 AM. Most people sit somewhere in the middle. Yeah. A morning person, let me read that again. You'll go to bed before 11 and you'll get up before 8.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottWhat Ashton Hall is doing, waking up at 3:50, isn't a chronotype. It's an alarm clock. There is no kind of, you know, by scientific standards, that's not what a morning person looks like. It's extreme. It's more than likely performative. I still don't understand why he had to use sparkling water. And there's no real biology that naturally peaks at 3:50 AM.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottYou know, as a morning person, you might as an owl, but not as a morning person. So in research is— so that's what the morning is. So morning defined success. Now we need to define this.
Al ElliottWish I had a mask though.
Leanne ElliottBasically, well, success means lots of different things to different people, doesn't it? But in terms of literature, we can talk about how well you do in school, how much money you make, and how well you're able to function at work. These are the types of things that psychologists looked at when considering people's chronotype.
Al ElliottOkay? Okay, got it.
Leanne ElliottWould you like to start with case 4?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottThere is genuine evidence here.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottThere is, that morning people are more successful. A 2023 study in Finland tracked over 5,000 people from birth into middle age. What's that called, Al?
Al ElliottIt's called a chronolo— um, a latitude, a longitudinal study. Is that right?
Leanne ElliottYes, it is. Well done. 10 points to Gryffindor. A longitudinal study. So they matched their chronotype of these 5,000 people against tax records. So real earnings, not self-reported. They found with the evening types, the owls, earned around 4% less on average by their mid-40s, with a gap largest for men.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottAnd a similar study in Denmark from 2012 found the same thing. Morning types, morning types, so our larks, Earn 4 to 5% more. And the researchers accounted for things like education level, job type, to make sure they weren't skewing the results. The earnings gap was still there.
Al ElliottSorry, mouthful of water. I do have a question.
Leanne ElliottHit me.
Al ElliottThese studies were done in Denmark and Norway, did you say?
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm. Finland.
Al ElliottFinland. They are in the north, so therefore, generally speaking, They get longer days and therefore in the morning.
Leanne ElliottTrue that.
Al ElliottSo is that got any— mind you, I wish I shouldn't ask that because now you're gonna be defining what actually a morning, what dawn is.
Leanne ElliottSo what you're asking is, does the context in which you might be a lark or an owl count?
Al ElliottYes, that's exactly what I'm asking.
Leanne ElliottYes, it does. And I will come on to that. But you're absolutely right. You're asking the right questions, Al.
Al ElliottThis is great. I love it when I get here. I feel like one of those smug kids in the class, you know, always one called like, um, you know, Tarquin or something. He goes, does this mean that it's so-and-so? Knowing, yeah. That's good.
Leanne ElliottYou're thinking like a psychologist, Al. Love it. Love it.
Al Elliott300 episodes a year, of course. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo that's what we've got in terms of wages. Education pattern is just as consistent, actually. A 2013 study looking at 272 German high school students found that being an evening type predicted lower grades, And not just slightly lower across every single subject. This even held up when researchers accounted for IQ and personality. So it wasn't that ours were less intelligent or less conscientious. Something else was going on.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottThen there was a large American study followed over 2,500 people from their teenage years all the way into their late 20s. Evening types as teenagers were not only getting lower grades in high school, They were also less likely to have completed a university degree years later.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd then a 2024 review pulled together 34 separate studies and confirmed the overall picture on this. Morning types consistently outperform evening types academically. So the evidence of a morning advantage is real. It replicates across countries. It shows up in both education and earnings. On the surface, yeah, it looks like the larks win. Morning people are more successful. So you asked an excellent question, Al, thinking like a psychologist, but doesn't it depend on context?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottIf this person experiences a very, very long day or a very, very long night?
Al ElliottYeah, sure. You should pretend that's the question I asked. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo if morning types are doing better, then the obvious question is why? And that's part of the question you asked is why? Is it not about context? And this is where we start to kind of move into the case against. Because when researchers dug into it, they found something quite important. It wasn't necessarily that morning types are more capable, it's that the world around them has given them an advantage.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottThink about how society is structured. What time does school start?
Al ElliottOh yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottWhat time do offices open?
Al ElliottYeah, early.
Leanne ElliottYeah, working day roughly 9 to 5. Yeah, they're not neutral. Biological timings, they align very nicely with lark biology. So for owls, every single day starts with their body clock being ignored.
Al ElliottAh.
Leanne ElliottAnd that has actual consequences that research has been able to measure. So a 2021 study found nearly 6,000 people— sorry, of 6,000 people— found that evening types had double the odds of poor work ability compared to morning types. But when researchers looked at why, the gap was almost entirely explained by 2 things. One, Als were getting less sleep on workdays. And 2, they were experiencing what researchers called social jet lag. Social jet lag is actually quite, quite a helpful concept, actually. It's basically the gap between when your body wants to sleep and when your schedule forces you to wake up. So, if your body naturally wakes up at 8:30, but your job starts at 8, You're effectively living in the wrong time zone every single day. And over weeks and months, that's going to accumulate. So it's not necessarily it's about laziness. It's just a biological mismatch between what your body naturally does and what your schedule demands.
Al ElliottSo you're kind of like into your waking overdraft a little bit?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Or social jet lag.
Al ElliottAlso, there is already a— yeah, come on, Al. There's already a name for that. So don't start making up new ones.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd it is actually quite serious.
Leanne Elliottas much as we laugh, because it's not just about feeling a bit tired and lethargic. There was another study of about the same number of people, 6,000 people across 20 years. And they found that evening types who were employed showed higher rates of depression and abnormal patterns of cortisol. That's the hormone in our body that's released in terms of helping us deal with stress. And chronically elevated cortisol is really, really bad for us.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottIt's related to things like cardiovascular problems, immune suppression, And as we've just seen, risk of anxiety and depression. Then we have some findings that more directly challenge the whole premise. So that's kind of like, yeah, it's true, but it's context. It's not necessarily that morning people are more successful, it's that the world is built for morning people. There is also a study, a British study of over 3,000 people, and it set out to test— I love British stories. They literally wanted to test the old proverb, Early to bed, early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise.
Al ElliottThat's so English, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottIt's so English. So if morning types really are more successful, this should have been pretty easy to confirm. They're looking at people who are going to be healthy, wealthy, and wise. What they found was the opposite. Evening types had higher average incomes than morning types, no significant difference in intelligence, and no significant difference in health. So this British study actually found the opposite, that owls earned more money.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottHmm. Curious, curious. Then we have a 2014 study of university students that showed something that ties all of this together. When evening types were put into morning classes, their grades dropped.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottWhen the same students attended afternoon classes, when their biology was awake and alert, their grades improved significantly. And the researchers called this the synchrony effect. So basically, when your chronotype and your schedule are matched, good things happen. Oh, there was one more thing that I thought was interesting, because as you rightly said there, Al, if you design your schedule to match your preference, whether you're a lark or an owl, then does that fix it? And we actually have some research on self-employed people.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottThey have much more control over when they start and finish work. And they found that they experience— self-employed people experience significantly less social jet lag than traditional employees. So for evening types especially, the freedom to work around your own biology rather than somebody else's timetable appears to largely neutralise any disadvantage they have.
Al ElliottFabulous.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo do we have a verdict?
Leanne ElliottWe do. The verdict: are morning people more successful? It's not untrue. But it is nuanced and context is really, really important. So yeah, morning types do show better average outcomes in education and earnings, and that's consistent across multiple countries and large datasets. But they're not winning because they're more driven or disciplined. They're winning because the system is built around them. And Aston Hall is just clickbait. It's just clickbait. And on a serious note, if you are an owl that's been feeling a bit behind, you know, before the day's even started, The studies say the problem isn't you, it's the schedule. So if there's anything you can do in terms of making your work more flexible or your timetable more flexible, I know that's really hard and in most cases you can't, that would absolutely help. So in terms of truth or lie, it's true, but only in certain contexts.
Al ElliottCool. Okay. Thank you so much. If you have your own truth or lie, then get in touch. I'd love to put it to Leanne. Talking of putting things to Leanne—
Leanne ElliottIf you're a psychologist who wants to come on and present, A truth or lie. We do have 2 psychologists booked in to do it as a guest segment. So if you fancy it, if you've got a truth or lie that you want to chat about, obviously one we haven't done before, then drop me a message on the old LinkedIn and we'll get you booked in.
Al ElliottYeah, sounds good. Sounds good. Okay, so we're on to the world famous weekly webisodes where we wrap up your questions, Leanne. We have 3 questions.
Leanne ElliottDid you do it right?
Al ElliottI think I did it right. I think I did it right. So first question, number 1, Leanne, it's about someone who's a high performer but a low impact on the Hi, Al and Leanne. Thank you for including me. You didn't need to include me. I only read them out. I've got someone in my team who's a top performer on paper, delivers great work, clients love them, never misses deadlines. But a few team members have come to me saying they feel talked over, their ideas get taken, and it's starting to affect morale. One person is even thinking of leaving. There's no single big issue, this person writes, just a pattern that's hard to pin down. I've raised it once with them, but nothing's really changed, so I feel like I'm stuck. Leanne, how would I handle a high performer who's quietly damaging the team?
Leanne ElliottA high performer who is quietly damaging the team is also known as a toxic superstar, and they are very well studied in the old psychology literature. I think it's something really unbelievable, like you'd have to bring in 3 superstars to your team to counteract the impact the toxic superstar is having on performance, morale, productivity.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottThere's such a drain, as you can see, as you're seeing, on people in the team that really does take a toll on performance in a way that is hard to really grasp, especially when you're looking at somebody that's a high performer and all their numbers are looking looking really good. This isn't something that you're just gonna be able to have one conversation with and fix. You're gonna have to keep having this conversation with them. You're gonna have to coach them essentially in terms of the impact their behaviour is, is having. Like you say, it, it doesn't sound intentional. It might not be intentional, but as you know, our friend Dr. Enya says, you know, lack of intention doesn't mean lack of impact. People are, you know, having—
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne Elliottare suffering here. So, it's going to be these regular conversations, feedback loops, coaching in terms of when they do, you know, handle something particularly well. It could be you might change some processes around ideation if ideas are getting taken, things like that, or managing meetings better if people feel talked over. That's part of your job as well as a manager to manage that situation before it escalates to that. And if you've got one person thinking about leaving, then this is a critical, critical stage. Other things to think about, but I wouldn't necessarily jump to them. Is this person neurodiverse? Sometimes communicate a bit differently. If we have neurodiverse colleagues, we need to communicate differently with them and, and yeah, appreciate they communicate differently with us. The other thing you could also do, which can be quite helpful for people who are like this, is to actually put them on a coaching course, because opening their awareness to things like listening, to empathy, can be really helpful. And kind of having those examples in taught moments can be really, really helpful. And I've seen that actually on coaching courses, you know, people who come in who are very direct and, and all the things you've described there, and actually seeing the transformation they go through in terms of realising not only the impact they're having on other people, but how much more they can achieve for themselves if they're better at listening and better at managing the people around them. So, I would say you probably need to step up a little bit as a manager. These are going to have to be regular conversations. Be really clear and specific about the behaviours that, that are having negative impact, what you want to see differently.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottMaking sure people are telling you when these happen, so you've got all the information that you need. Maybe think about getting them on a coaching course if you have the budget to do so, and maybe shake up your meetings and ideation process a little bit just to give people that immediate relief, I think would be beneficial.
Al ElliottSuperb. Thank you so much, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottAnything you'd add, Al? You must have dealt with a toxic superstar more than once.
Al ElliottI've got nothing really to add because you've covered everything. I think the difficulty is that when you employ someone like this, It will hit your bottom line or your top line, actually, more likely. If you were to say, right, I'm going to have to get rid of them if it's not working out. So I totally understand why someone wouldn't want to get rid of their top performer. But from the stuff you've said there, that never would have occurred to me when this happened to me with employees. So, so I think it's really solid advice, Leanne. Excellent. You should do this for a living.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottQuestion number 2. Now, I chose this because it's kind of similar. But a little nuanced to question number 1. So this one is about same voices dominating every meeting and how you can fix it. So I run a team where almost every meeting the same 1 or 2 people end up doing most of the talking and everyone else stays quiet until asked. It's not a capability issue because the rest of the team are more than able to contribute. I've tried things like round robins, calling on quieter people and sort of like calling them out. And tightening agendas, it helps a little bit, but often feels forced and a bit awkward. So, Leigh, how would you encourage more balanced participation in meetings without making it feel unnatural or even overly managed?
Leanne ElliottThe simplest way of probably explaining this is the people that are speaking up are more than likely extrovert, and the people who aren't are more than likely introvert. And you're designing meetings currently in a way that supports extroverts, right?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo we need to think about how we can approach meetings in a way that includes everybody and how everybody thinks. And in terms of that, what's a really good way to think about this? I'm introverted. Al is more extroverted. Al will want to discuss 80% of a problem out loud and then spend the remaining 20% of that problem-solving time figuring it out in his head.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottI will spend 80% of the time solving the problem in my own head and then 20% of the time talking out loud. So we can come into tricky times sometimes, because when I'm talking out loud, I've basically got the solution. I'm just validating it.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottWhen Al talks out loud, I respond in a way that he's now just asking me to validate the idea. And I'm like, yeah, that sounds good. And he's like, no, no, but I'm still thinking it through. I'm still thinking it through. So it's kind of worth remembering that this is how people think about things and problem solve and make decisions. So it sounds like you've got some introverts in your team. who aren't currently able to contribute in the way that meetings are, are currently structured. A few things that can be useful: send people the agenda before so they can have a good think through. And before, I mean the day before, 2 days before, as early as possible really, so they can have a think through things. Include specific questions that you're looking for feedback on or you're looking to answer to help come to a team conclusion. Have one-to-ones with these people before the meeting. It could just be a quick 10 minutes, nothing formal. Just go, hey, did you have a chance to look through the points? What are you thinking? Anything that you want to chat about ahead of the meeting? It's more like you'll get some feedback in, in a one-to-one than you necessarily would in a group. Other things, and this came from Mamie.
Al ElliottOh yeah.
Leanne ElliottWho came on, she did a whole episode on how to run a great meeting. So, I'll leave a link to that in the show notes as well. Go and listen to that. She had a really great technique around change, and this can work really well as well, because if you've got a mix of introverts and extroverts, is you ask people to vote on whether they agree with this solution or not that you're proposing without saying anything. They just write it down. You don't know who's written what. So, you'd go, so, our new idea is we're going to put a brand new coffee machine in the break room instead of— and everyone loses a day's holiday.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottWhat do we think? Good idea or not? 5, you think it's the best idea ever. 1, you think it's the worst idea ever. 3, you know, somewhere in between. People vote. You kind of count up the votes. If you've got 50/50, then that's going to require some discussion. If you've got a landslide either way, then that pretty much tells you everything you need to know about, about that change. That can be a really useful technique as well. But it sounds as though you've done stuff like calling round robins, things like round robins, meh. Calling on quieter people, don't do that. It's just gonna make someone feel really awkward and exposed. And that is why it's feeling forced and awkward, because it is forced and it is indeed awkward.
Al ElliottLeanne and I had a bit of a falling out about a week ago, um, before something I said, and I said it in the wrong way, but I meant, um, I said I got Claude, I bought Claude so I wouldn't, wouldn't have to talk to you.
Leanne ElliottOh yeah.
Al ElliottAnd what I meant was I now use Claude to do the stuff that Leanne was describing, the 80% out, so that when we come together, to talk about an idea. We're both doing the last 20%. But obviously it sounded very much like I was saying I bought Claude so I wouldn't have to talk to you. What I meant was actually—
Leanne ElliottHow rude.
Al ElliottI bought Claude so you wouldn't have to listen to me. And it basically is a similar kind of idea. But yeah, so that didn't go well. So there's a top tip for an extrovert. Go and buy Claude and be very careful how you describe you using it. Okay. Question number 3. How do you step up as a leader without dropping the, without dropping the day job? It's difficult to read that. My business has grown quickly and now I've got managers reporting into me. The problem is I still feel very hands-on and stuck in the day-to-day. Things like delegation, giving clear direction, handling performance issues all feel a bit clunky, even though I'm strong on the product side. I know I need to step up into more of a leadership role, but I'm not sure how to do that whilst running the business. Leanne, how do you make that shift from doing the work to leading others?
Leanne ElliottSo I think there's 3, there's 3 answers here.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd one of them's a bit tough love, one of them's a bit kind of psychological, and one's more kind of operational. Tough love bit, how hands-on do you really need to be versus how hands-on do you want to be? Because you're the, you're the boss. Found. You want to be in control, you want to be disruptive, you want to be that centre of attention. It's what has been called in the past— I'm not saying you've got it, I'm just saying what it's been called in the past— big toddler energy. You know, you're not superhuman, you can't do everything. And it's really a case at this time thinking that you might be one person doing multiple jobs really averagely because you've had to while you've been building your business. And good for you, you know, you've hustled and you've made it happen. But you now might be at the point where you need to let someone else do one job brilliantly and just let it go. Um, so that's kind of the tough love aspect of it. In terms of the more psychology aspect of it, letting go is also gonna be really hard because this is an ending.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThis is the end of an era. Your era is like a scrappy startup, having to do everything yourself. You're grieving that version of that entrepreneur. That you were when, you know, you had to do all of that. And that's completely normal. It's going to be really, really hard. But your goal isn't to be irreplaceable. It's to build something that runs brilliantly, but with you in the right role, not doing everything. So you need to really grieve this, close it as an end of, of a chapter in, in the history of your business, the story of your business. And the really practical answer, and it's really boring, do a job analysis. Do a job analysis, map out what needs doing, what skills matter to do it, what skills matter for your business, what you can do better than other people, what you need somebody else to take off your time to make sure you're adding the most value to your business. Get those competencies nailed down. Hmm. Then use, you know, go down your mixed methods of assessment to find out who the best person is. That could be people you've already got in your business. It could be people you need to recruit. recruit in or contract. But basically, you need to figure out if you need to step up into a leadership position, exactly what roles need to happen in the business that you will no longer be doing. And one thing we've talked about before— did we talk about on the podcast, or were we just talking about between ourselves, Al? The idea of going dark.
Al ElliottYes, we talked about ourselves, just ourselves. That's part of, um, part of, uh, Foundation, the new product we're coming up with. Oh, I shouldn't have said that. That's top secret. Part of something. I might edit that out.
Leanne ElliottWe were saying about how we'd like, like if we were working with a founder who really wanted to get into this, our advice would be go dark, take a week off, be uncontactable. You, even emergency, you're not around to any of your people because what breaks when you're not there We'll show you the things you need to prioritise to make things easier. And if nothing breaks, it's you.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottIt was you blocking the progress. It was you making it feel too hard. I have a feeling that most business owners with, with that type of team, I don't know, 15+ ish.
Al Elliott1-5. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah. I think they could go off for a week and absolutely nothing would happen.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottI think it'd be fine. I think you'd figure out You know, that actually your people thrived in that autonomy, that they enjoyed the extra decision-making, that they now have a list of things they do need your guidance for. And it might be a process thing, it might be a role-based thing, but I think you'd actually realise, again, with love, you're probably not as important as you think you are.
Al ElliottRight, brilliant. Thank you very much. If you have your own question, make sure you put it to us. Oh goodness, I put it to us, but it fell off my chair. And we will see you next week, I believe. No, we'll see you Thursday. We've got Geoffrey Firmin, I think, on Thursday.
Leanne ElliottOh, is it Geoff?
Al ElliottI think it's Geoffrey. Geoffrey is an incredible guy.
Leanne ElliottCan I tell the story?
Al ElliottYes. Yes, tell the story.
Leanne ElliottSo I posted on LinkedIn about 50 things I'd like to banish. You might remember we did a live on it. And one of those things I wanted to banish was Officevibe. And then Geoffrey Firmin commented going, as the co-founder of Officevibe, I agree. And I was like, oh my God, this is really awkward. So I messaged him. I was like, dude, do you want to chat? Like, kind of want to explain myself. And he was like, no, it's cool. Fine. And we did, and he was awesome. And yeah, now here he is.
Al ElliottYes, so he's on this Thursday. Uh, really cool guy, really down to earth. If you've ever used any kind of platform for HR, then learn how it actually works and what the motivation behind it is and whether it's evil or not. That's what Jeffrey will tell us. Right, we will see. That's an hour, Leanne. Oh my, to cut this down a tiny little bit. I'll take all my bits out, don't worry.
Leanne ElliottSo we will see. I did a lot of fluffing. Just take that out.
Al ElliottWe will see you next week.
Leanne ElliottI'm not sure you need the expensive petroleum bit.
Al ElliottI quite like that. We will see you, uh, next week. No, sorry, I've done this already. Thursday. Oh, bye-bye.