Episode 85 · 28 March 2024 · 43:18

85: How to future proof your career with Isabel Berwick, host of FT Working It Podcast & Author of The Future-Proof Career

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Introduction: A Strange Managerial Experience
intro#podcast #introduction #management
Introducing Isabel Berwick and Her Book
intro#isabel-berwick #book #ft #working-it
Social Media and Workplace Dynamics
interview#social-media #workplace #venting #polarization
Workplace Polarization and Inclusion
interview#workplace #polarization #inclusion #gen-x
The Importance of Listening in Management
interview#listening #management #podcast
Navigating Workplace Trends: Angry People, Greedy Jobs, and Quiet Quitting
interview#workplace-trends #anger #greedy-jobs #quiet-quitting

Show notes

How to Future-Proof Your Career — with Isabel Berwick (FT Working It)

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) are joined by Isabel Berwick, host of the FT's Working It podcast and author of The Future-Proof Career. Together they explore accidental managers, why listening is the most underrated skill at work, how to manage people you don't like, and the workplace trends set to define 2024 — from "greedy jobs" to quiet quitting.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. The "accidental manager" problem Most managers ascend to their roles without formal training or preparation — the Chartered Management Institute calls them "accidental managers." Isabel explains why being great at your job has nothing to do with being great at managing people, and why so many workplaces are run by people who never chose to lead.

2. Social media is polarising the workplace TikTok has become a place to vent about work — think "quiet quitting" and "lazy girl jobs." But Isabel warns this venting risks creating an "us and them" dynamic that's becoming one of the most pressing issues in workplaces today.

3. Listening is a skill, not a given "We have underestimated so profoundly the difficulty of listening," says Isabel. It's a skill that has to be learned — and most of us never are. She shares why being present and truly hearing someone is the foundation of effective management.

4. 2024's workplace trends: greedy jobs, angry people, and quiet quitting From the rise of "greedy jobs" in law and consulting to the anger bubbling up in a huge year for global elections, Isabel breaks down the trends she's tracking — and what they mean for managers and employees alike.

🧠 Key Takeaways from Isabel

Reverse mentoring works both ways. Younger employees mentoring senior leaders on everything from tech to culture isn't just a nice-to-do — it's a powerful tool for cross-generational learning.
Managing people you don't like is a skill. It's one of the great under-talked-about things at work. Isabel shares practical tips for navigating difficult professional relationships without burning bridges.
Boundaries are the new loyalty. Quiet quitting isn't laziness — it's people respecting their own boundaries. The companies that get this will keep their people; the ones that don't, won't.

📚 About Isabel Berwick

Isabel Berwick is the host of the FT's Working It podcast, covering workplace, management, and leadership. Her book, The Future-Proof Career: How to Thrive at Any Stage, is available to pre-order now.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Have a burning question about work? We're taking listener questions for our Workplace Surgery segment — send yours in via the connect link below for a chance to be featured on the show.

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Isabel BerwickWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Isabel BerwickYou know, I had one manager who trusted me so little that when, when they were off sick, I had to travel to their house on the other side of London to visit them in their house and show them what I was doing. I mean, I kind of laugh about it now, but, you know, the whole, the whole situation— I mean, you know, I made a cup of tea and I took cake and stuff, but, um, that was a very strange relationship. I was, you know, quite young. I was in my 20s.

Al ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Work podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist. My name is Al. I'm a business owner, and we are here to help you simplify the science of work. You may be surprised to hear that wasn't in fact Leanne. That was actually me. Poor Leanne is full of cold this week, so she's kindly allowed me to do this on my own. I think this is the first podcast in over 200 episodes I've ever done with just me. So, um, I look forward to your angry letters. Anyway, hello, hello, and welcome to another Thursday edition of the podcast. I say Thursday because we have a brand new Tuesday episode, which is a little bit different. If you are wondering why, first of all, well, there's 2, 2 changes there. First of all, uh, you might be wondering why it's called Truth, Lies and Work and not Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture. We've had a slight mini rebrand. I'll keep this brief as we've mentioned it all before, but if this is your first time hearing of this change, the main reason is so we can expand the conversation to talk about all aspects of work, not just the culture. Of course, the secret is that the culture underpins almost everything in the workplace. So no matter what we discuss, it's likely we will mention culture. And secondly, to reflect this change, we've introduced a new episode on a Tuesday where we round up the latest workplace news, introduce some brand new guest experts, and also hold a new Workplace Surgery where we're going to answer your questions about work. So that means, yes, we are looking for your questions. If you've got anything that— any quandaries about work, any questions about leadership, and perhaps you're a manager and you don't know what you're You can ask either anonymously or you can record a voice message or a video. We'll play it out on Tuesday and Leanne will answer it. So this is really good news if you like us, not so great news if our British accent's great on you like fingernails down a chalkboard. But this week is part 2 of our Future of Work series. Last week we had the amazing Rory Sutherland, the Vice Chair of Ogilvy Mather, a marketing agency that employs 17,000 people across the world. In last Thursday's episode, we talked about the future of the workplace. Now, if you've ever caught Rory on podcasts such as Diary of a CEO, then you'll know he's highly intelligent, highly opinionated, and very freaking funny. So if you haven't listened to that, I suggest you go back and listen to episode 74, I think it is. It's the list. That's Thursdays. You'll find it. It's even got Rory's name in the headline. In today's episode, we're switching up to look at your career. How can you future-proof your career? Luckily, there's a book by our guest called exactly that, The Future-Proof Career. The author of that book is the incredible Isabel Berwick, host of Financial Times Working It podcast and timeservedft.com journalist, all-round superstar. If, if there's anything to do with work, you can guarantee that she knows about it. Now, her new book is coming out on April 11th, and as we said, it's called The Future-Proof Career. How to Thrive at Any Stage. What's interesting about this is the book is split into 2. The first half is for managers and the second half is for employees. Now, I got an advanced copy, which, and read through it, and it is very, very, very good regardless of whether you are a manager, an aspiring manager, perhaps you've been a manager for years. It's still really, really good. Or if you're just looking to perhaps move into management or just have a better career and future-proof your career, it's definitely the right book for you. So we knew what we had to do. We had to pin down the busy Isabel and get the story behind The Future-Proof Career. The book is very comprehensive. So rather than try and cover it all, we just concentrate on 4 key questions. Question number 1, is social media polarizing us at work? Question number 2, what makes a great manager? And how can you become one too? Question 3, what trends are Isabel seeing in the workplace? And number 4, what advice does she have for the younger generation entering the workplace? So let's go and meet Isabel Berwick.

Isabel BerwickSo I'm Isabel Berwick. I am the host of the FT's Working It podcast about the workplace, management, leadership. I write the Working It newsletter, which goes out to FT subscribers every Wednesday.

Al ElliottAnd my book, The Future-Proof Career: How to Thrive at Any Stage, Somewhat controversially, the first question I asked Isabel was, why do we need another book on the workplace?

Isabel BerwickI really did hesitate before I signed the book deal because my desk is so full of books about work and management and leadership. And I thought, what can I add to it? But I suppose what I am trying to do is write a book for people who are probably not the natural audience for a lot of those leadership and management books. It's firmly aimed at people who are in the workplace, who want to get on at work and enjoy it, but as a part of a fuller life. You know, you may not want to be the CEO, but your job is important to you and you want meaning, but you just want to learn how to get on with other people, get a pay rise, thrive. It's a book about work for, for mortals, really, for ordinary people. Yeah, I wrote it for myself because I've made so many errors in my career, and I just thought, where am I going to put some of this? I hesitate to call it wisdom, but life experience, I suppose. And hosting the podcast, I come into contact with so many amazing people, and some of their words are in the book, and some of my experiences are in the book. So it's a kind of— it's a mix of everything. It's a kind of everything I've learned about work.

Al ElliottSo let's just start with the elephant in the room, which is TikTok. And it seems to be full of posts about work. Now, I'm not a TikToker or a TokTiker. I don't know what the cool kids say, but I tend to be— I use TikTok for Gen X, which is YouTube Shorts, and there's still a fair amount on there. And so I do enjoy watching these posts about work, and a lot of them make me laugh out loud. There is something about the Gen Zs as they're able to be so honest about how they approach work, but often in a really funny way. But I had to ask, is this actually healthy?

Isabel BerwickYeah, I think it's a place to vent, right? So there's a lot, you know, the whole, the quiet quitting, lazy girl jobs, all of those trends started on TikTok, and that's not a surprise. I think when we were young, when all of us were young, we probably had shit jobs and shit managers. The difference now is that people can go on TikTok and vent about it. And why not, you know? And some of them are really funny. I find it really funny. And I think what I like about TikTok is that it brings a kind of humor that I think has been lacking. I mean, much as I love LinkedIn, it can be quite a humorless place. TikTok is, you know, work is part of our lives. And I guess this is part of what I was trying to do in the book. You know, work is so, so baked into our lives, and yet sometimes it's over here at a distance. You know, we don't count it as our real life. And TikTok is, I think, integrating real life into our sense of humor, into who we are as people. And even if we're Gen X, as I am too, we can look at that and think, yes, that's absolutely— that's really funny. You know, the crappy manager who gives you 15 extra tasks at 5:29. And on TikTok, they'll just say, you know, Pick up their, pick up their Stanley Cup and leave. So it's kind of inspiring, actually. I sort of, I like the attitude.

Al ElliottBut with all this venting, I worry, are we actually risking polarization? Are we creating a kind of an us and them situation? You'll often see a lot of these TikToks and YouTube Shorts will take the mickey out of a boomer or a Gen Xer like me, or perhaps a millennial like Leanne. So are we creating this Gen X versus Gen Zed? If you go onto Reddit and onto a subreddit called Antiwork, you'll see a lot of hate for managers and fat cat bosses and how people can do the least amount of work possible. So it almost becoming the employees versus managers, or even worse, employees versus actual work. One of the biggest polarizations I've seen is the idea that white men are now being discriminated against. So it's almost like positioning. There's a lot of people like— I won't mention his name, but you know his initials start with AT. Um, and JP, and if you know who I mean, you know who I mean. And they seem to be like, we are white middle-class male, and I feel like we are being discriminated against. Where's our masculinity? What's going on? So I asked Isabel about this. Is it true that white men are discriminated in the workplace?

Isabel BerwickI think this is a huge problem, and I think it's going to be the one of the most pressing issues in workplaces when we talk about inclusion. That means everybody. And I think there have been some groups in workplaces, I mean, white men particularly, but not just, who have not felt included by inclusion. They feel that everyone else is getting special treatment. That may not be true, but that's how they feel. And actually, how we feel is very separate from what's actually going on, and it's very important. So I'm quite keen on this idea. It's a kind of new jargon word, but of of belonging, which sort of moves on from inclusion somewhat and says everyone should be able to belong. But I think we still have some way to go in terms of the kind of conversations we have in workplaces and how people feel about workplaces. So, you know, I do not want DEI to go backwards, but I do want us to sort of look forward and say, actually, some of the people have not been part of these conversations. You know, there's been a sort of air of, if you're not with us, you're against us. Yeah. And people have felt marginalized and silenced. And I think we're still in workplaces generally navigating how to, how to bring everyone into the conversation. I do think things have moved in the last couple of years, but there's a lot more to go. But I think that if you look at these polls that show that young people, you know, young women tend to be very left-leaning and very liberal And young men not. You know, there's a massive gulf. The FT had a chart that went viral a couple of weeks ago showing the gulf between attitudes between young men and young women. And there is this kind of risk of polarization with young men becoming more and more, you know, reactionary. Some people are outright misogynists. You know, the Andrew Tates of this world have a huge influence. So The impact of online culture has not really been taken account in the workplace yet. And I really hope that's something that people are going to be thinking about in the next few years. Otherwise, we might end up with polarized workplaces. And that's just not something that's going to be helpful for anyone. There is this massive intergenerational shift, I think, and that's, as you say, driven a lot by social media and TikTok, particularly. I think it's part of the same thing as the polarization of men and women, for example? How do we not have generational polarization? And that's another part of the, I guess, the management piece for, you know, we can't fix society's problems in workplaces, but we can make workplaces places where everyone feels that they have a role and they belong. It might not be where your best friends are. You may not get on with your colleagues. But I suppose what I have always tried to do is suggest ways in which we can make things better. I mean, it might not be a fantastic solution, but, you know, any improvement is an improvement. So for those of us who are in Gen X, we can try to understand where Gen Z are coming from, and that might involve looking at TikTok, as I do quite a lot. And actually, it's quite good that— I think it's great that Gen Z are not grateful for their jobs because there's a lot of soul-searching that hasn't been done in workplaces that really should be. So actually, it's keeping us on our toes and saying, how can we improve? I'm not saying they're right all the time because there are some aspects of, you know, youth culture that I think are always going to be problematic for older people. It's not a right now, this minute thing. I find the speed with which some younger people expect their careers to progress Quite alarming because actually there's no substitute for experience. And you need to get— you know, I've heard of lots of instances of people with trainees who are asking for better tasks or more meaningful work without having mastered the basics. So I think internet culture, you know, has given everyone this expectation that we can all have purposeful work that makes— that fulfills us. But actually, sometimes there is grunt work that still needs to be done. We have to lay the foundations for our careers. And I suppose what I hope doesn't get lost is the need to work hard and be good at our jobs.

Al ElliottSo the lessons here seem to be that in the old days, Gen X, me, would complain about work or our manager or laugh at someone, something stupid someone did at work in the pub at the end of the day or on a Friday night. The younger generation who don't really go to pubs and bars, they now have TikTok. So really nothing's changed except the reach. And let's be honest, it's probably healthy to actually talk about it and kind of get it out of your system. With so many of these posts about their managers and how bad they are, let's talk about what makes a good manager and what makes a bad manager. Isabel uses a term called the accidental manager. It sums up why a bad manager So, it's not my phrase.

Isabel BerwickIt's what— it's, I think the Chartered Management Institute came up with it, and it's great. So, an accidental manager is someone who hasn't had any training to be a manager, and that's a lot of people. I, gosh, I'm gonna— you're gonna catch me out here, but I think something like 70 or 80% of managers haven't had any training. So, you know, a lot of jobs, you're good at your job and you get promoted.

Al ElliottYeah.

Isabel BerwickBut why does that mean you're going to be a good manager? So, the sign of an accidental manager is someone who hasn't had any training, has no idea about how to manage people as distinct from do the job properly. And I think that the managing of people part of it has often been forgotten, particularly— I think the British are particularly bad at this, actually. And it also plays into why our productivity is so low, because we invest so little in management that we don't think about the impact that has on how well people work. So an accidental manager is probably not a great communicator. They're probably not listening to what their staff say. They're probably telling rather than listening and cooperating. So One attribute of a very inexperienced or insecure manager is micromanaging, which is a very common thing. So, a micromanager doesn't trust the team, and that might not be because the team aren't trustworthy or good at their jobs. It's just that the manager hasn't learned how to let go. Hasn't, you know, if you've been doing a job really well and then you get made a manager, Yeah. You still— you've still got it in you to be wanting to control how that job is done, and you just take that into your management role. But that's such a counterproductive way to— I mean, I've had some appalling micromanagers in my time, and it's such a counterproductive way to work. It, it destroys you because your mental health will be affected, and it destroys the morale of the team because it feels like they're—

Al ElliottYeah.

Isabel Berwickbeing, you know, surveilled all the time. You know, early in my career in the late '90s, when management was actually not very much of a thing, you know, I had one manager who trusted me so little that when, when they were off sick, I had to travel to their house on the other side of London to visit them in their house and show them what I was doing. I mean, I kind of laugh about it now, but You know, the whole, the whole situation. I mean, you know, I made a cup of tea and I took cake and stuff, but, um, that was a very strange relationship. I was, you know, quite young. I was in my 20s and my manager was much older. But to invite your subordinate around to your house when you're sick to check up on them is, I think, uh, something that wouldn't happen now, let's put it that way. How do we know what is right and what's wrong. I mean, the internet gives a lot more, and this was pre— I mean, not pre— properly pre-internet, but, you know, before the world of careers online and LinkedIn. I had no idea, none of us had any idea what else was going on in the world. So, if that was what my boss said was normal, that was what was normal.

Al ElliottSo, that's Isabel's experience of a bad manager, but What about a great manager?

Isabel BerwickYeah, so I've had some really great managers, um, at the FT and elsewhere. I've been really lucky, but I think they've been people that have been slightly ahead of me in terms of their life stage, often. Um, not always, but I had one particular manager called Debbie Hargreaves when I would— when I had very young children, and she had 3 children herself. She had a very senior job at the FT. And she was a very good journalist, but she was also modeling that you could have 3 kids and be a great journalist and be a great manager and be a really interesting, funny, and kind human being. So for me, I'm someone who likes to look up to a manager. I have a— I'm probably because of my generation, I have a fairly sort of old-fashioned view of setting an example, I guess, while also being human and humane. So I think she was someone who really made a big impression on me and actually really helped to keep me in the workforce at a time when I was struggling to manage, you know, having, having kids and a big job on a national newspaper. It's hard, but she'd already done it and she modeled it brilliantly.

Al ElliottOne of the key themes in the book is about listening. Now, I spoke to Isabel at some length about listening and how hard it is, but it is absolutely essential to be a great manager. So why aren't we better at it?

Isabel BerwickI think we have underestimated so profoundly the difficulty of listening. It is a skill that has to be learnt, and nobody's been teaching it. And in workplaces where we're on deadlines and it's, you know, you might be harried. So the single— I've heard this over and over again— the single most important thing that managers can do is give time every week to each of their reports. So, you know, talk to someone every week. And this is particularly relevant in terms of mental health issues or or people being unhappy in some respects. And you can't fix it as a manager, but it's a kind of early warning system. And there's so much pressure on managers now. They have to act as coaches, therapists, as well as occasionally disciplinarians. And that's a lot of pressure. But if you can spend time every week with each person who is your report, It doesn't even have to be completely work-focused. I mean, it might be cheesy in your particular work context, but just finding out how people are is so important because I suppose the flip side of listening is that, as someone said to me, everyone wants to be heard. So everyone— sometimes people want to just vent, they want to just talk, or maybe they don't want to talk. And quite often you can't do anything about it, but you can listen.

Al ElliottYeah.

Isabel BerwickTo what they're saying. I think if anyone listening has the chance to go on any sort of course and just be aware of how they're listening, that's a really great start. Or even just, you know, in conversations with friends, just being more aware of how you're listening and letting go of the desire to make meaning and to think of what you're going to say next. That's, I think, incredibly hard, particularly in a work context, because space can be uncomfortable, can't it? And I think building silence into our workday might be a brilliant thing. I know it's an aspirational thing, and as you say, hard for younger generations to do. But I suppose on the flip side of what the always-on social media thing— for a lot of younger people, wellness and taking care of themselves, self-care, is very big. And part of that often is a meditation practice or a stillness practice or a gratitude practice. And if you can link that kind of impulse to the workplace and say, actually, we're just going to take a pause, that might be, that might be a way in. Because a lot of people do those things now, and I, I think they're great for, for well-being. I'm quite bad at meditation. I have tried it a few times. But it's incredibly popular, especially with younger cohorts, and that might be the way in. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.

Isabel BerwickAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—

Isabel Berwickthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.

Isabel BerwickUh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work.

Al ElliottAnd we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Isabel BerwickIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Isabel BerwickAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Isabel BerwickBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.

Isabel BerwickSo come back.

Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Now, Isabel said that everybody wants to be heard, but how do we make ourselves heard, especially if we want our managers or senior leaders to actually listen to us? Isabel's got some great advice.

Isabel BerwickI think it's about being prepared, actually, having something at your fingertips for those unexpected moments with your manager, because it's quite hard to get face time. I mean, I'm talking in real life here with your— someone who's quite high, you know, higher up in the hierarchy. And I do think there's something to be said for those Unexpected moments. So there's the unexpected moment, you know, you're making a coffee, your boss is in the kitchen too, that kind of moment. Have something there that you can say that you're ready for, preferably something that your team has done. You know, you don't have to self-aggrandize if that's not what you're about, or just ask, you know, ask an ordinary question. They're people too. And the second part of getting bosses to listen is to be quite intentional about networking, which sounds really cynical, but I don't mean it in that way. I mean, how can you make the most of the limited time that you might have with a boss? Just think about how— not sure, I guess it's about preparation so you don't panic. And I've suffered from this a lot. in my life, you know, being quite panicky about talking to senior people. And I think there are a lot of tricks you can learn around preparation that allow you to stop being panicky and allow you to say something that makes sense to them. And even if it doesn't really make sense, they might remember you. Although I was recording a podcast this week, and this is not in the book, but it's interesting. We were talking about people pleasing.

Al ElliottHmm.

Isabel BerwickAnd about the wrong way to talk to people higher up the food chain than you, in terms of taking on tasks that you can't really do, you haven't got the capacity for, in order— because you think there's going to be some sort of reward for you further down the line. So it's a sort of brown-nosing. So that, I guess, that's the wrong way to try to project yourself upwards.

Al ElliottLet's come on to my favourite chapter here. There's a great chapter in the management section all about managing people you don't actually like. Isabel has some great advice for managers who can't seem to get on with people in their team.

Isabel BerwickI really wanted to write about this because I think this is one of the great under-talked-about things at work. I think in the rest of our lives, we allow ourselves to not like people or accept that other people don't like us, but somehow in workplaces, there's a kind of blandness And it's not really discussed unless someone is, you know, actively obnoxious. But sometimes it's not that. Sometimes it's that your colleagues might trigger something in you that you're not even aware of. And I think what I've learned from writing the book and doing the podcast and talking to psychotherapists and others is that all of this comes from our own childhoods. So I suppose what I've learned is to look at what we as individuals are bringing to that relationship, where there is someone that you— that really just sort of gives you the ick or you don't get on with. What is it that you're bringing? Who do they remind you of? And it's almost always something from early childhood. And even by acknowledging that, it helps you to move to the next level of trying to deal with it in a kind of adult-to-adult way rather than reacting as a— in a childish way. And we see a lot of childish behavior in office offices, that a lot of it goes unreported, obviously. But we've all had experiences of where people just are behaving unbelievably petulantly. And it all goes down to something really quite profound that we're probably not acknowledging. So I'd just like to see a bit more acknowledgement of what we're all bringing to the party, rather than focusing on the people we don't like.

Al ElliottLet's move on to our 3rd question. What are the trends Trends in the workplace. Now, Isabel's podcast Working It has some amazing guests and is the industry go-to for trends in the workplace. 3 of the key trends she's seen for 2024 are angry people, greedy jobs, and of course, the continuation of this quiet quitting. But quiet quitting is less about slacking off and more about how managers and organizations— that's us— are failing to set good boundaries.

Isabel BerwickI think it is this respecting of boundaries, which is where quiet quitting came from. You know, you're not actually quitting, you're just working the hours that you're paid for and not more. And I think the idea that you should go the extra mile just because you should go the extra mile has been rendered redundant by the, the quiet quitting trend. I just think what— be aware that younger people have very different boundaries, and we may not agree with it. That might— may go against all of our hard-earned tendencies to want to please our bosses. But I think generationally, boss pleasing is possibly a thing of the past, particularly in those kind of jobs.

Al ElliottSo growing up Gen X, as I did, and my dad, who's a boomer, they— he was always very keen on saying, go the extra mile, you get noticed, it'll, it'll help you in the long run. So does this mean that the days of going the extra mile have actually disappeared? Have they gone?

Isabel BerwickPeople will go the extra mile once they've bought into the culture of the company. So if you're in a professional, you know, knowledge worker type of job, the kind of people that are going into those jobs do want to buy in. They do want to go the extra mile. But I think there is something to be said around boundary setting, or as a thing that wasn't a thing when managers who were in their 40s and 50s were young. And even if you don't do anything about it, just to be aware of it and actually not to exploit your workers, you know, but to gain their trust, to communicate well, to listen to them. I think all of these are skills for the ages, and it's not particularly generational. But it will help enormously with your younger employees that you're aware of where that generation is coming from.

Al ElliottNow, the second trend that Isabel found was around angry people. She predicted back in November last year when we first interviewed her at Mad World Summit, she predicted that the biggest problem in 2024 will be angry people in the workplace. So let's start at the beginning. Why are we so angry at work?

Isabel BerwickI think half the world's Democracies are going to the polls this year. This is a huge year in terms of political polarization, polarization in society, a lot of economic pressures globally. People are not happy in the wider world. And in fact, I've just interviewed the author of a book called Languishing, which is a wonderful phrase. You know, a lot of people are languishing. They're not depressed, but they are not happy. They are not thriving or flourishing. Now don't tell me that those people are not going in, you know, they're going into workplaces and bringing all of that. And so when you're already in a bad place, the crappy stuff that happens in workplaces is going to set you off. Because the workplace is quite a boundary place, and it's sometimes okay to say it, to To be angry at a colleague. You might not go too far, but you can really lose your rag in a workplace. And I think the figures are just going up and up. And I don't really know what to say to managers apart from be aware of it in yourself and in others, because I don't know where this is going to end. I think the external pressures on us when we walk through those revolving doors into our workplaces We're bringing them with us, and that's going to have a massive knock-on effect. And I think the election cycle is another pressure, you know, and the news cycle. The news is so depressing. The overwhelm that people feel from watching the news, they're bringing that to work, and they may be directly affected by Ukraine, what's happening in Ukraine, what's happening in the Middle East. All of these things are just bubbling under, and sometimes they bubble over.

Al ElliottSo, this anger we need to manage, and if you are a manager, you need to be aware of it, because when it manifests itself, it could feel quite personal if someone's angry towards you. But in actual fact, just knowing that the world is on fire in some places, literally, it's just a— it's a tough situation for everyone, really. And so, I think by listening to people, like we talked about before, that's going to really, really help, because people like to be heard. But also, perhaps, just by giving someone a bit of a break.

Isabel BerwickYeah.

Al ElliottJust by saying maybe they're angry and they're projecting it on me is probably a really, really good strategy. Now, the third major trend, which is possibly linked, linked to the two above, is greedy jobs. Now, we do have someone coming on and talking about greedy jobs a little later in the year, but for now, let's just find out from Isabel what a greedy job is.

Isabel BerwickYou know, when you've got younger people going into what are called greedy jobs, you know, the law, consulting, investment banking, You know, these are jobs that take up your whole life. You don't have like work-life balance. So they— I think they're going in with their eyes open. But I think surely it benefits all of us. You know, like that group of young Goldman Sachs trainees did a presentation a couple of years ago saying, look, we've had enough, we're doing these 70, 80-hour weeks. And they actually presented to senior staff about why that needed to stop. So I hope that what What Gen Z will bring is a recalibration of workplaces that benefits everyone. But I suppose the bottom line is, if they don't like it, they'll leave. I think all the stats show that Gen Z are much less loyal than even young millennials. They will job hop. They don't care. They will find another job. So, if they don't like what you're offering, they'll go. And actually, that's quite refreshing because it means— I mean, it's annoying for managers, but It means that the people who stay are bought into the corporate culture, and you can bring them on board, talk to them, learn from them, they can learn from you. So I think there's a kind of post-pandemic leveling out going on at the moment. I think it'll settle down.

Al ElliottSo the 4th question we asked at the beginning was, what advice is there for younger generations? Obviously, we are— we're all aware that every single day a new generation comes into work, and we are currently dealing with Gen Z. When it comes to Gen Alpha, I just genuinely don't know what's gonna, what's gonna happen. So we wanted to find out if Isabel's got any advice for the younger generations, maybe if they're starting work, or perhaps if they want to progress to management. One of the most successful things Isabel has seen is the rollout of something called reverse mentoring.

Isabel BerwickI really like reverse mentoring. I think it's one of these things that's quite new, and it wouldn't ever have been a thing when I was young, but I love the idea of it, and I can see how it's becoming much more popular. I wish it had been a thing, but I'm not sure. I feel that I didn't have very much to offer when I was younger, but that's really probably wrong. And I think one of the good things about younger people now is that I think they do have quite a robust sense of self-worth often. And I think that's good. I mean, reverse mentoring started as, you know, young people showing managers how to use social media. And it's progressed way beyond that. And the best sort of reverse mentoring is often younger people in workforces who come from diverse backgrounds reverse mentoring senior executives who are often, although not exclusively, white men. And there— so it's a, it's a, it's a bringing of life perspective as well as what you can learn in terms of the workplace or social media. So it's a much richer kind of experience, or it should be. And I've talked to some people who've, who've had really great experiences with reverse mentoring. I would, you know, I've got a mentee here at the FT who's in her late 20s, and I learn a huge Now, Isabel's had over 130 episodes on her podcast, that's Working It, and a weekly newsletter as well.

Al ElliottSo she's probably one of the leading experts on the world of work, apart from yours truly, of course. But what advice would she have given to herself when she entered the workplace?

Isabel BerwickIt's very difficult to throw back, isn't it though? Because the society and the workplace was so different. You know, it's very hard to explain now the constraints that were on younger people in the '90s and presumably before then. I think it wasn't until probably— I think Julia Hobsbawm, the workplace commentator, has made these distinctions between different eras of the office. And when I, and probably you, started our careers, we were still fundamentally in the same era as the '80s. And things hadn't really moved on. And I don't think I can really project back and say, oh my God, you know. I suppose what I did have to say was that, you know, when you're young, you can feel quite lost. And I think what would have been lovely would have been to have a much closer relationship with older colleagues and a more kind of mentoring or guiding relationship. It was a bit sink or swim. When I started, you were expected to know how to do it, and if you failed, you were chastised. Whereas I like to think now there's a lot more guidance. So what I would have liked when I was younger would have been to have a mentor. And I mean, one when I was in my very early 20s in my first jobs, and I— that just wasn't a thing. Because you're bringing a fresh perspective. Exactly. You know, there are this idea of corporate structures, particularly in a corporate environment, there is an element of, this is how we've always done it, or this is the easiest way to do it. So, when you've got someone coming into your workplace who's got experience somewhere else, what are the key elements of that that you can pick out for your workplace? And when you've got a grad trainee coming in, what are the key elements of their outlook that they're bringing that you could capture for your workplace? It's not just about process, it's about culture and outlook. But I think process is kind of under, under-talked about. The way that people do things in different companies is a very rich source of enlightenment and innovation.

Al ElliottIsabel has had a pretty incredible career, but she also lived through the tough times when women were just not afforded the same opportunities as us men. I wanted to know if she had any regrets about how she tackled her own career during those probably slightly dark days.

Isabel BerwickI guess my biggest one is I have a lot of regret around the fact that when my kids were small, I took a step back with my career, or rather I didn't put myself forward for promotion or management jobs. Now I can sort of be slightly kind to myself and say culturally at that time, at the start of this century, it was much harder for women who wanted to work part-time to have senior corporate jobs. And I did have a terrible experience where I was essentially, you know, removed from a job because I was part-time, not because I was bad at it. And that really scarred me, but it took me a long time to step back up. I thought I wouldn't have enough bandwidth for my children and for work. And I regret that now because I think, you know, we can do everything. We don't have to be perfect in everything we do. And I think I was tripped up by partly my own perfectionism and partly by the cultural atmosphere of the day. But I think that's changed now. A lot of women now are able to work flexibly and fit work around family and caring commitments and other commitments. And not just women, people, men too. So I hope I wouldn't have made the same mistake, no. But I don't know. I mean, we, we get— you carry a lot of guilt as a mother when your kids are small, particularly. So I really don't know. And also, you know, I was able to pick my kids up from school 2 or 3 days a week all the time they were at primary school. And that's, uh, you know, in retrospect, that was a huge privilege.

Al ElliottWhat a woman definitely go and buy her book, The Future-Proof Career, out on the 11th of April, but it is available for pre-order. Uh, you can look in our show notes, you'll find a link there, but also just go to her Twitter, um, go to her LinkedIn. She will definitely have some links on there for you to follow. If you can't wait until then, here's how to hear more from her right now.

Isabel BerwickI'm very often on LinkedIn @IsabelBerwick, and if you are an FT subscriber, you can subscribe to my newsletter Working It and the Working It podcast is free for everybody.

Al ElliottSo that was the end of my very first solo episode. How did I do? In fact, don't tell me unless, unless you want to send me some, some something really good feedback, then don't tell me. Leanne will be back on Tuesday. Well, I can't guarantee that, but I'm 99.9% sure she'll be back on Tuesday to help us with our brand new episode style, which is codenamed This Week in Work. We think that's going to be the name for it, but maybe you've got a better, catchier name. Just drop us an email, we'd love to hear. So we will be talking about the news, we'll be doing a news roundup, uh, we'll be talking about the previous episodes and some feedback from guests. And we're also going to be having that surgery you talked about a second ago where you can ask Leanne a question and she will answer it. And it can be anything from management to recruitment to workplace culture. It's your free consultancy. So take advantage of that. If you have a question, then you know where to find us. Check the show notes. You can go on LinkedIn, or there's our email in the show notes, and you can send that over to us, and we would love to feature you. Obviously, you can do it anonymously, just via an email, and we won't mention your name. Or if you prefer, you can record a voice note or even a video, and we will include it in the pod. Thank you for joining us. If you love Isabel as much as we do, then please go and follow her on Twitter, on LinkedIn. And please go and buy her book because it really is exceptional. I'm sure you're going to love it. So we'll see you next week. Bye-bye. And we will be going through the local— not the local news, the recent news. I might do that bit again. Imagine a situation where your manager walks in the room And you really want to be anti-work. Um, it basically means if you look at that, everyone seems to— oh yeah, fuck that up. Thank you for joining us. Uh, if you do love Isabel as much as we love— thank you.