Episode 96 · 9 May 2024 · 48:27
96: 'The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People' - is it still relevant? With Todd Davis
Featuring Todd Davis
96: 'The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People' - is it still relevant? With Todd Davis
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Dr. Covey's own confession about the habits
Who is Todd Davis?
Where the 7 habits actually came from
interview#7-habits#stephen-covey#history
Habit 1 — being proactive
Are the habits still relevant 30 years on?
The 8th Habit
Todd's personal transformation
The biggest misunderstanding about the habits
Talk less, listen more
interview#listening#communication#leadership
Play your roles well
interview#roles#balance#life-roles
Becoming Chief People Officer
When should you invest in a CPO?
Signs a company is in trouble
interview#company-culture#warning-signs#organizational-health
What Dr. Covey was really like
Book recommendations
interview#book-recommendations#seth-godin#personal-development
The bank job that started it all
interview#career-start#banking#early-career
We all want to matter
interview#recognition#purpose#meaning
Show notes
The 7 Habits at 30: Timeless or Time to Retire? — with Todd Davis
Guest: Todd Davis — former Chief People Officer at Franklin Covey, author of Get Better, and senior consultant with over three decades at the company Dr. Stephen Covey founded.
Thirty years on, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People still sits on office shelves and Kindle libraries everywhere. But in a world of AI, hybrid work, and constant disruption, is it still relevant — or just a dusty relic of the self-help boom?
Todd joins Al and Leanne to share what it was like working directly with Dr. Covey, why the habits were never meant to be a checkbox, and how his own transformation from reactive to proactive shaped his career. They dig into the "eighth habit," why effectiveness is a journey not a destination, and the three practices from Todd's own book that jumped out at Al — including "talk less, listen more" and "play your roles well."
Top 3 Takeaways
Effectiveness isn't a checkbox. Dr. Covey himself said he never came close to perfecting any of the habits — the point is the continuous journey, not arriving at mastery.
Proactivity is the habit of choice. "This is my life. I'm not going to allow other people to determine my choices." The shift from reactive to proactive is where personal transformation begins.
We all want to matter. Todd's parting message: we don't like to admit it, but we all want to be recognized and make a difference. Great leaders understand that need in their people.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Todd DavisNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Dr.
Todd DavisCovey himself said often he never came close to perfecting himself in any of the habits, but that wasn't the goal. It was then the ongoing pursuit of trying every day to be proactive, of trying every day to listen first to others and understand them before, you know, he tried to be understood.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Work podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science and psychology of work.
Al ElliottYep, welcome back if you have listened before. If you haven't, where the hell have you been? What's wrong with you? Who hurt you? Why, why didn't you listen to other stuff? You're gonna like it here, I think, unless you're into like, I don't know, cow tipping or Formula 1. We don't really cover those subjects, but anything to do with work or workplace culture, you're in the right place. Don't worry, we'll look after you.
Leanne ElliottYou are, and welcome to Thursday's episode. You might not be listening to this on a Thursday, and that's okay, but why is it important to know that this is our Thursday episode? Well, Thursdays is where we bring you interviews with the very best experts in leadership, business, workplace culture, everything work-related. Whereas on Tuesdays we do something a bit different.
Al ElliottYeah, if you hate experts and workplace culture and listening to people there, but you just like listening to us two, then you're probably gonna like Tuesdays a bit better because we do a— it's just us two. We do a roundup of the latest workplace news as well as our now world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to— or workplace questions to Leanne. Although I suppose we've— it could be any other question you could ask her. How does she get her hair to look so pretty? I don't know. I mean, it seems magic. She's got lots of lotions and potions. Moving back on, what have we got today, Lee?
Leanne ElliottUm, well, I was gonna say, talking of experts, but I'm not sure we were. Um, but today we have an expert for you. Who have we got, Al?
Al ElliottI am legitimately quite excited because I remember back when I first started working for myself, I fell down this rabbit hole of books, and each book seemed to recommend 3 other books to read. But one book that that almost every single author recommended was The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Dr. Stephen Covey. Just recently, by the way, after talking to our guest, did you realize I've been calling him Covey and it's Covey? So Dr. Stephen Covey. It's the kind of book that just makes sense to anyone who's trying to become a better person. Just in case you've not come across it, then we will be going into it a bit more depth in the content in a moment. But today we feature a guy who has worked very closely with Dr. Covey for 17 years. Not only has he spent his career producing content and leading teams who teach the principles to organizations such as Marriott, PepsiCo, hundreds more. But he also spent 18 years as the Chief People Officer and Executive Vice President of what is known as the most trusted leadership company in the world. This man has 35 years experience of building amazing cultures. He's authored and co-authored 2 bestselling books, run 16 marathons. I don't think he's won any of them, but he said he enjoyed them and appeared— crazy guy— and appeared in Fast Company, Harvard Business Review, and Inc. Magazine. I am so happy to welcome the incredible Todd Davis, senior consultant, author, and all-round lovely guy to the podcast. Let's go meet Todd.
Todd DavisI'm Todd Davis. I do a lot of things, but for my profession, I am now a senior consultant with Franklin Covey. I've been here for 28 years, and for 18 of those years, I was their chief people officer.
Leanne ElliottIn case you've never heard of Dr. Covey and the company he founded, here's a quick history.
Todd DavisFranklin Quest Organization was the time management company that had the Franklin Day Planner, And how to, how to keep track of all your tasks and your appointments. And the Covey Leadership Center was founded by Stephen R. Covey, who was a professor for many years and then wrote the very famous, um, one of the bestselling business books of all time, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. And Dr. Covey passed away about 11 years ago. But this is the merger of those 2 companies. We specialize in what we call performance improvement, and we help organizations and teams and leaders within those organizations achieve results that require a change in human behavior. So when it comes to getting people to do things differently, which is really difficult, that is our sweet spot. And we do that all through leadership. We're known by many, and I say this with all humility, but we're known by many as the most trusted leadership organization in the world.
Al ElliottNow, even if you've not read it, you've probably heard of it. It is essential reading for any leader, entrepreneur, salesperson, manager, or executive. Now, Todd joined Franklin Covey back in 1996, which was just 7 years after the book was published, and he spent most of his tenure creating and delivering content based on the 7 principles that Dr. Covey wrote about. Here are those 7 principles.
Todd DavisSo what Dr. Covey did was he made a point of saying, look, I didn't invent these 7 habits, but I observed people, leaders, organizations, teams that consistently seemed to be able to achieve the goals they set out to achieve. So the 7 Habits are a culmination of these things that he observed that the most effective, not efficient, you know, he didn't call it the 7 Habits of Efficient People or even successful people, although people are quite successful, but it's the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. And I tell you that because that's how Dr. Covey defined effectiveness. It is getting results today, getting them in a way that allows us to get them over and over again in the future and get even better results in the future. And many, many times and too often leaders and teams, we're so anxious to get the revenue or the results or whatever it is that we end up cutting off our nose to spite our face, so to speak. We end up killing the goose. And so we define effectiveness As, as getting results today, but in a way that allows you to get results over and over again in the future. And the 7 habits are designed just to help us do that.
Leanne ElliottWhat does psychology have to say about habits? Well, habit formation is quite a complex process where behaviors will become automatic responses to regular cues. And those cues are usually deeply ingrained in our neural pathways. We're talking the brain here. So the creation of habits is both an unconscious and a deliberate process that can significantly affect personal goals and lifestyle changes. The efficiency of habits lies in their ability to enable us to perform daily activities without expending mental energy on decision-making. So for example, we all know we need to brush our teeth in the morning. However, this efficiency can backfire when unhealthy behaviours become automatic. Breaking bad habits is notoriously challenging because it involves overriding deeply embedded neural patterns. But with strategic approaches like altering the associated rewards, changing environmental cues, or repeating new behaviors, change is achievable. Building new habits often involves understanding the underlying mechanisms of habit formation. That's called the habit loop. That includes the cue, the routine, and the reward. And by manipulating these elements, individuals can foster new habits, such as the 7 habits covered in the book.
Todd DavisHabit 1 is to be proactive. It's the habit of choice. This is my life. I'm not going to allow other people to determine the course of my life. Habit 2 is to begin with the end in mind. This is the habit of vision. You know, if it's my life, where do I want to go with my life? Habit 3 is to put first things first. This is the habit of execution. It's where we have got to take action now. Habit 4 is to think win-win. It's the habit of mutual benefit. And how do I not just focus on my wins, but how do I make sure we're all winning together? Habit 5, seek first to understand, then to be understood. This is the habit of empathic communication. And then habit 6 is to synergize. This is the habit of creative cooperation or collaboration. And then habit 7, which surrounds in the model that we have, it surrounds these other 6 habits, is the habit of sharpen the saw. And this is the habit of renewal. It's putting gas in the engine to do everything that we want to do.
Al ElliottThis book is over 30 years old. Business moves fast. So I really wanted to know if it was still as relevant today as it was back in 1989.
Todd DavisAnd we're asked that all the time. Dr. Covey was asked that all the time. Is it still as relevant today as it was 30-plus years ago, almost 40 years ago when he first wrote about them? And the answer is yes, because these habits are based on principles of effectiveness and principles don't change. Certainly their application changes, how we use these habits change. But just like the law of gravity was as true a million years ago as it will be a million years from now, But the principle doesn't change.
Leanne ElliottNot to mention it's one of the bestselling books of all time.
Todd DavisYou know, uh, New York Times and Wall Street Journal, they all have their rules for how long a book can be on their bestsellers list because they have to make room for others. But 7 Habits, interestingly enough, continues to sell at the volume necessary to, to be on a, a best booksellers list. But they move it off only because they've got to make room for others. But it continues to warrant being on many bestseller lists today, all these years later.
Al ElliottI'm fascinated by any kind of piece of content that has numbers in it. And I'm not alone. If you look at any of the articles that do well in search or on social, they usually follow the format of X ways to do Y or X mistakes I made. But I do wonder if these are a little bit restrictive. Can the entire idea of effectiveness be condensed into just 7 habits? Did Dr. Covey leave anything out?
Todd DavisDr. Covey, before his passing, he actually wrote The 8th Habit. So there is a book, a bestselling book called The 8th Habit, and it's called Find Your Voice. The subtitle is Find Your Voice and Help Others Find Theirs. And it's an amazing book that really puts the 7 habits to practice. So it's The premise, this is my interpretation of it, is through living the 7 habits, and it's an ongoing journey, we discover what we're really most effective at and how we can make a difference in the world. And now it's upon us to help others do the same. And so again, the book is called The 8th Habit: Find Your Voice and Help Others Find Theirs.
Al ElliottI know personally, I changed a lot of what I did based on reading the book. And also once you see the original 7 habits, It's difficult to not notice most business books repeating those 7 habits somewhere in the pages, but they are seminal for a reason. They do result in some pretty remarkable transformations.
Todd DavisSo I'll, I can tell you about that from a firsthand experience because I can tell you about my transformation. I mean, and it's an ongoing journey, but I think about who I was 28 years ago when I first joined the Covey Leadership Center and now, and again, I have a long ways to go. But the biggest, the first thing that comes to mind when you ask that question, and it's true with our clients as well, is you find yourself, you stop looking for excuses. You stop looking at reasons why you can't achieve this thing or why something else went wrong. We call it a victim mentality. And it's human nature, you know, when things don't go right or things don't go our way, I have a family member right now who's really struggling with this, and every time I talk to them, they'll give you 101 excuses why they're not being successful in this thing they're doing. And those may be true, but proactive people, just to use the first habit, proactive people, they recognize all of the conflicts and challenges in life, but they say, okay, that's true, but what can I do about it? Where can I influence? How can I work around this thing? So that's been a huge transformation in my life. Just that one principle to say, to focus on what we call our circle of influence versus our circle of concern, to figure out what are those things I can do something about. To, you know, we can be disappointed and we have emotions and sadness like everybody else, but recognize that and feel that, but then figure out how do I move forward? How do I make something good out of this? So that's a huge transformation. I think another one, and I could think of several for each habit, but another one that comes quickly to mind is the influence we have when we take time to understand the other person first. This is, I think about this every morning. If human beings would take the time to truly listen and understand the other person's point of view, it doesn't mean That I'm agreeing with you if I pause and listen, but it just means that I'm taking, I'm putting empathy to practice. I'm taking time to say, gosh, I wonder why Al sees things this way. Let me think about things from his point of view, maybe from his upbringing or from the circumstances he'd been through. And when I do that, I am in a much better position not to manipulate, but to influence. And, and, and It's so amazing. You think about those people, Al, that truly take the time to understand you. They listen with the intent to understand, not with the intent to reply. And think about how much more vulnerable and open you are with those people because you're not feeling judged. And, and I find in so many relationships, both professional and personal, when we take the time to do that, we start to get to the root of the real issue.
Leanne ElliottI'm sure there are people that quote habits from this book, having actually never Reddit. When a book becomes infamous, this is often the case. What does Todd think people misunderstand about the book?
Al ElliottHmm.
Todd DavisThat's a really good question. I don't know that I've been asked that before. I think one misunderstanding, and I think I even fell into this, is that, okay, I read The 7 Habits, I understand them, I'm going to implement them, and I implement them, and now I'm set. I don't need to do anything anymore. It's, I'm ready to go. I'm going to be effective for the rest of my life. And so I think a common misperception is that it's something you do and check off the list. And it's just the opposite. Dr. Covey himself said often he never came close to perfecting himself in any of the habits, but that wasn't the goal. It was then the ongoing pursuit of trying every day to be proactive, of trying every day to listen first to others and understand them before, you know, he tried to be understood. It was trying every day to collaborate, to synergize with other people. So it's in this ongoing journey and it's so true. I think about the people I work with now, both my associates and clients. And as we identify and focus on and work on these habits, it makes all the difference in everything we do if we're all, if our intentions Are to, to try and instill these habits in our lives, but it's never, it's never finished.
Al ElliottWorking with Dr. Covey for so long, it's no surprise that Todd has ended up writing his own book, which has become a bestseller too. Get Better, Todd's book, is a collection of 15 proven practices to build effective relationships at work.
Leanne ElliottThere is a mountain of research that has shown relationships are good for the mind, body, soul, and our businesses. So, I'll run you through some of the headlines. Let's start with civility. So, it turns out you don't even need to be best mates with your coworkers to have a happy and productive work life. You just need to be civil. There's a researcher called Christine Proth, an associate professor in management at Georgetown, and she has found that teams experiencing higher civility report better collaboration, reduced stress, and increased satisfaction. And that also contributes to greater productivity and lower turnover.
Todd DavisHmm.
Leanne ElliottThere are various studies in the last decade that confirm that inclusive teams outperform their peers. Inclusive workplaces foster innovation and improve decision-making speed and quality due to diverse perspectives. These environments also lead to higher job satisfaction and commitment. And finally, you've probably heard of the Harvard Study of Adult Development, one of the longest-running studies of adult life, which has found a significant correlation between personal relationships and longevity. According to Dr. Robert Waldinger, the director of the study, close relationships and social connections are more predictive of long and happy lives than social class, IQ, or even genes. The research highlights that people who are more socially connected to family, friends, or in their community, in their work, are happier, healthier, and live longer. So yes, Building good relationships at work won't just improve our happiness and performance, they may actually extend our lives.
Al ElliottClearly, Todd fully understood all this, and that's why he's published the book.
Todd DavisOne of our main publishers, Simon Schuster, who published The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, uh, together with us, they had this idea that it would be kind of cool if the chief people officer of the people company, uh, wrote a book about How people get along. What role do relation— does relationships play in all of that? And so the book I wrote, Get Better: 15 Proven Practices to Build Effective Relationships at Work, is what my experience is and was as chief people officer, seeing these principles put into practice. And so it's, uh, I started out, I think there were 29 practices originally, and I whittled it down to 15. 15 is still a lot, but I identified the 15 practices. They're all, they're principles that Dr. Covey had written about, but that I had seen people who are masters at their relationships use on a regular basis. They became part of who they are to be the most effective in every role in their life. And I put those in a book that people can read and evaluate. There's a little anecdotal story at the beginning of every chapter to get their minds around what I mean when I say wear glasses that work or carry your own weather or things of that nature. And it hit the Wall Street Journal bestseller list, not because anybody knows who Todd Davis is, but because relationships matter. You know, Jim Collins, a famous author over here, wrote many Good to Great, many other bestselling leadership books. Jim Collins talks about making sure you get the right people on the bus. When he is talking about putting teams and organizations together, you make sure you have the right people. And I agree with that 100%. And it's actually, I have found the nature of the relationships between those people that make all the difference in how effective We are going to be, how we're going to move the needle, so to speak. And so relationships in my experience are paramount. They're critical. And we need to spend time on those, not because, not just because it makes it a nice place to work and it's nice to have good relationships, but because if we really understand one another, we can be so much more effective. We can move at lightning speed.
Al ElliottNow in the book, there were 3 of those 15 practices. that jumped out at me. And the first was talk less, listen more. That is a recurring theme. It's something which Leanne and I are actually quite fanatical about.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Todd DavisAnd again, this book was written from the Chief People Officer's view on those people who used principles from The 7 Habits and some of our other content and became and are so masterful at their relationships. So talk less, listen more is primarily based on Habit 5, which is seek first to understand And then to be understood that I was talking about earlier. But talk less, listen more is all about taking time to understand people. What we just, what we just talked about, the most effective leaders are those that realize, hey, I don't have to make sure everybody hears my idea or knows that, that this idea came from me. And they do a lot more listening and therefore a lot more understanding, and then can make wiser decisions. We have our CFO of our company right now. His name is Steve and he's an amazing CFO and he's an amazing human being. He, in our executive team meetings, which I was on for 18 years, he was the least talkative of the 12 people or 11 people that were on that executive team by a long shot. He spoke very little, but when he spoke, everybody was quiet and we all listened. And the man, he's a wonderful, like I said, wonderful human being. But he is so wise because he listens. It's not, it's not so important to him that, that he also gets his input in a particular topic. Now, he doesn't coast. He doesn't sit and not, not participate, but he is actively just listening. And so then when he does come up with a thought or something he wants to contribute, it is so spot on and so wise. And so he was a person I was thinking of when I wrote that. that practice of talk less and listen more. And you will, you will add so much more value to every conversation. Most of us, we're all human beings. And I have certainly fallen into this category. We want to matter. We want to be relevant. We want people to know that we're smart. And so often, and I get it, I'm just going to be vulnerable here. I'll be, I will be sitting in a meeting and somebody will say something. I'll think, oh crap, she's so smart. I want, I want the boss to know that I'm smart too. I got to think of something really smart to say. Instead of focusing on whatever the topic is. And, and if I'm going to contribute, make sure it's something that will really elevate the conversation and not just worried about saying something so people will know that I'm smart. So, so that's what I, those are a few examples of talk less and listen more.
Al ElliottHere are the other 2 that I really liked.
Todd DavisPlay your roles well is one of the 15. And we're not talking about roles that are played on a stage or in a performance, but they're Talking about taking the time to identify what are my most important roles in my life, both personal and professional. And while we have many relationships, hopefully hundreds, thousands of relationships, the primary most important roles, for example, in, at this stage in my life, my roles right now are that of a coach because I coach several leaders and others. I coach our clients. A colleague with my associates at work, a family member, a parent. I mean, that's part of family member, but that's an example. And you pick like 5 or 6 of your most important roles. And then in the book I talk about, we have an exercise where you evaluate. So if this is the most, these are the most important roles in my life, what am I doing this week To make a difference in that role. And the reason I called that out as one of the practices that highly effective people do and people that are masters of their relationships is that we, I'm sure you could tell me the most important roles in your life right now, but just like anybody could. But in addition to just thinking about them or being aware of them, are we doing things so that we don't get to the end of the week or the month or the year And say, gosh, that's a really important relationship, but I sure haven't, I haven't spent much time there, or I haven't, you know, I keep pushing off. We're going to take our family on this trip, or we're going to do this fun thing. And all of a sudden it becomes a regret instead of, instead of a great memory. And so playing your roles well is all about identifying the most important roles in your life and making sure that on a regular, maybe not daily or weekly, but on a regular basis, You're, you're, you're making a difference in those roles by things that you do, time that you allocate to those various roles. Practice number 3, behave your way to credibility. Okay, behave your way to credibility. And if I ask you to think of the most credible person you know, um, and you've got somebody in mind, chances are the reasons you're thinking of them fall into one of 2 buckets, ideally both, and that is their character and their competence. And of course we've got to have both, right? If I, I might be the nicest guy, you know, Al, I remember your birthday every year. I know all of your family members, your pets' names, whatever. I'm just this marvelous person that way. And you think the world of me, but if I offer to pack your parachute for your first skydiving lesson, that might be, you might not care how many birthdays I remember. You might want to know how much parachute packing experience I have, right? And alternatively, maybe if you learned that the person who did pack your parachute was a qualified parachute packer, she or he had tons of certifications, but maybe you learned that they had recently been acquitted from a manslaughter charge based on a technicality. You might not care how much parachute packing experience you have. Something, if something about their character is off, it's a question. And so, We focus on both our character and our competence, and you got to have both to be truly credible. And here's the catch. The reason I call it the Behavior Way to Credibility is that you and I don't get to decide when someone should see us as credible. We can tell people, hey, I'm credible, but it's up to them observing our behaviors and our track record and all of that. And then they get to decide. And so in that concept or in that practice, I just teach Are you behaving your way to credibility? Are you being consistent day after day, week after week, and in both the areas of character and competence?
Leanne ElliottIt'll be no surprise that I wanted to find out more about Todd's role as Chief People Officer for one of the most trusted leadership brands on the planet. Here's how Todd ended up in that role.
Todd DavisSo, so about 20 years ago, our CEO, I had been with the company for about 9 years at that time. And our CEO president came to me and said, hey, we'd like you to interview for the chief people officer role because the person who had been in the role was leaving. And I didn't have any experience in human resources or anything. And I said, well, that, that I'm so flattered and honored. I was working in our innovations department where we create all of our content and develop all of our training. And I said, I'm so flattered, but I think you need someone with significant HR background and all of the employment law experience and things like that. And they said, you know, we, we, we understand that, but we, we see that you're really good with people and we think the other stuff can be learned. And so we'd like you to apply. They didn't give me the job, but they had me apply. And, and so I did and was very nervous. Because again, I didn't know a lot about human resources, and that's a primary function of the chief people officer. And I was given the position, which I'm so grateful. And then what I quickly did was I surrounded myself with people who knew all of these other things that I didn't know. In fact, she's still there today, our vice president of, we call it people services. In fact, interesting little side note, the first request I had It was, I think it was called human resources or talent development or whatever. And I, and I said to Bob, our, our, our CEO at the time, I said, would you be willing to let me change the name of human resources to people services? I'd like to call it people services so that just from the get-go, people know what our intent is and what we're all about. And our customers, of course, are all of the associates and employees of FranklinCovey. And so that was a starting point. And I know this is a roundabout way of answering your question, but I would say first and foremost, look for someone who understands the people part of the chief people officer. It is all about, and I'll go back to an earlier comment, it's all about relationships. And so I invested and continue to invest heavily in the relationships. Now, we're not a huge company. We have about 1,100 employees. actual employees. And then we have another, I don't know, 1,000. We have a licensee network around the world. We're a global company, so we have offices around the world. And, but I spent an inordinate amount of time getting to know on an ongoing basis all of the people in our organization. And it's interesting, Al, because as a result of that, while I wasn't as great at the systems and the processes and all those things, I had other people that were really good at those things. And I could spend my time really understanding people. We had minimal employee relations, legal issues, and things of that nature because people felt, and I'm not patting myself on the back for this, I coached leaders and others to do this as well, but take the time to understand people. So to answer your question, I would say that would be the first priority is put the people part first. The systems and the, and all of that are very important. Don't get me wrong, but maybe have other people focus on those and you be known for being the quarterback, to use a football analogy here, to be the quarterback of the culture. It takes everyone to really shape the culture of an organization, but you need to be the instigator of that and the reminder of where we should be focused first.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Todd DavisSeamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Todd DavisUh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work.
Al ElliottAnd we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Todd DavisIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
Todd DavisDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWhat are the attributes that we should be looking for when hiring leaders? Well, we've actually just concluded our own research here at Oblong in collaboration with one of our clients. Now that it has been finally reviewed and deemed scientifically sound by 3 outsourced 3 independent psychologists. We will be sharing the results on the podcast alongside the leadership team of the sponsor of the research very, very soon. But here's a little teaser for you. So we found that in 2023, in hybrid environments, there are 4 leadership behaviors that accounted for up to 34% of the variance in employee engagement and well-being, which basically means if leaders enact these behaviors, people are significantly more likely to thrive. And these were the 4 behaviors: enabling— trusting staff to be autonomous in their roles; honest— leaders are open, transparent, and build relationships on respect; accessible— willing to listen to others and modify decisions based on feedback; and health policy— leaders invest in their own and others' well-being through organizational policy and behavior modeling. Which I think really does speak to the importance of credibility that Todd highlighted earlier. We often focus on the competencies of managers and leaders, but behaviors are often the most important factor in making hiring and development decisions. It's that classic Maya Angelou quote, people forget what you said, people forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.
Todd DavisI spent many years, and before I joined Covey, I was in the medical field recruiting. Uh, again, I didn't have HR experience, but I didn't have recruitment experience. And in the company that I worked for, the recruitment function was separate from HR. And then I was, I helped Franklin Covey do recruitment. And so I think the things that, regardless of the role that I look for, are people who are naturally curious, people who are, because really, while we think of a consultant, you know, we have our paradigm or what we think a consultant would be. When you think about any role, any role, whether it's a graphic designer or a project leader, their, their natural curiosity is what really makes them, uh, so skilled because they're always learning. They're in this constant state of learning. They're curious about how things work a certain way or why we do this or why we do that. So that is a number one thing that I look for. There's something else, and our director of recruitment, that I hired actually, and we worked together for a long time. He and I talked about the barbecue factor. We, another thing that we look for is even though you interview people around certain skill sets and do they know this and that, at the end of the day, we say, if they were your neighbor and you were putting on a neighborhood barbecue, is that somebody you'd be excited to come over and have a barbecue with? And again, being very careful, not about bias, not saying, oh, I just want to hire people that I like or that I would be with, but But are they engaging? Are they people that you want to spend, or that others want to spend their day with, that clients want to spend their time with? And often those people are people who are very different from us, but they're people— I keep going back to this relationship theme— but people who you really are interested and enjoy being around. So look for people who are naturally curious. Look for people who have the barbecue factor. Look for people. I'll go back to habit 1, who are super proactive. People who have this abundant mindset, who take initiative. These are traits that regardless of the position for which I'm trying to recruit and whittle candidates down, those are some top qualities that have never failed me when I look for people who have those things at their core. Look for people who are willing to share with you certainly what they do well, but also what they're not so good at. That self-awareness is so important. And I would always, I would often ask people, tell me about something that you've received feedback on that, of where you could improve and tell me what you did with that. And if there are people who have a struggle with coming up with an example, that tells me a lot about their lack of self-awareness or their unwillingness to be vulnerable. None of us are perfect. We all have areas to grow and get better in. And so people who are, certainly have the skills you need, but are also in a constant state of growing and learning and have the humility to admit that and learn from others.
Leanne ElliottA lot of people ask me when they should invest in a Chief People Officer. I tend to give the same answer as Todd.
Todd DavisWell, that's a really great question. So for a smaller organization, I believe that someone in the leadership function needs to have a part of their role as the chief people officer. It may not be full-time with an organization that size. We had a team, our people services team was about 25 people. A lot of those were our recruiting team. We had a large recruiting team because we're always bringing on good talent. But I think someone in an organization of 100 people, I might be the chief operations officer and I also might be the chief people officer, and I might have a part of my role or my time dedicated to the culture. Again, sometimes people, I don't think they intentionally discount culture, but they don't focus on it as much as they do focus on their revenue targets or other things. And we all get results with and through others, unless you're a pro golfer or you're in a company where you're the only employee. The rest of us get our results with and through others. And so culture is a strategy. I mean, it's a strategy for achieving all of the growth and the other results that we need as an organization, whether I'm a 100-person organization or whether I'm a 10,000-person organization.
Leanne ElliottTodd has worked with hundreds of organizations. I wanted to know if there are any obvious signs that a company has a great workplace culture.
Todd DavisThere was a software company in the healthcare organization, in the healthcare industry. Okay. And they, they're a pretty large company that when I say pretty large, they have about 4,000 employees, but they're based here in Utah. And I was teaching a leadership course, the 4 Essential Rules of Leadership, facilitating it, just 4 Essential Rules of Leadership. And I was about 5 hours in before, before I, I was about 5 hours in. Yeah. Before it was made known to me that their CEO, there were about 40 people in the, in the course. And it was live. It was in person. Their CEO was sitting at one of the tables there participating just like everybody else. And, and this happened to be a man. He was amazing and he was fun. And I had, you know, I, I bring a lot of humor into facilitation and, and I had teased him a couple of times and, and other people had, they had name tags, but they just had their first name. And then I asked him a question and somebody at the table started, his table started laughing. And I said, what's, let me in on the joke. What's so funny? And they said, well, he's our CEO. And I was like aghast for a minute thinking, oh my gosh, what have I said in the last 4 hours? But I bring that up because that is a great culture where the top brass of a 4,000-employee company is there in the trenches with everyone else. And you could tell.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Todd DavisThey weren't holding back with what they were saying. You know, we were talking about the good and the bad in situations in the organization. And there was such high trust with that leader. And I could tell in the pre-consult that I did with this company in their training department, when I walked in the building, and culture is much more than the building, but you could tell in the building, just, it was a newer building, but the open spaces, the fun they had, Everything was in cubicles. There weren't big private offices or anything. So that was a great question you asked. And that very first came to mind. That was, I would say, I don't know a ton about them yet, but that was certainly a sign, a strong indicator of an amazing culture. And it starts from the top down. You got a leader there, the CEO, who is right there in the trenches with everybody else. And there was such respect and yet openness and vulnerability with everyone.
Al ElliottOur chat with Todd covered all aspects of his work and life. One of the questions that I asked was about Dr. Covey himself. What was he like in real life?
Todd DavisHe was one of the most authentic people I've ever met. Imperfect. Um, you know, humble, but he was, and he was quite a jokester. People are surprised about that. Um, and this story has nothing to do with anything, but it's quite funny. So he lived here in Utah, in Salt Lake City, and they had a, they had a family cabin, actually a series of cabins in another state not far from here. And one Sunday, he and his wife Sandra, and she just passed away a couple of years ago, they were driving up to this cabin and it's like a, about a 6-hour drive. And Doctor, or Sandra was driving and she had a bad back and they had a, they had a large, I don't remember what vehicle it was, but it was one of those vehicles where if you can open the door, there's a button that lowers the vehicle so that older people can step up in. It actually lowers down to the road. And he, um, Sandra had been driving and she said to him, Stephen, I, my back is hurting. I'd like to lay down in the back. Would you mind driving? He said, fine. So she gets out of the car, he gets out of the car, he goes over to the driver's seat and she opened the door, which is supposed to trigger this lowering of the car so she could step in and it didn't lower. So she closed the door to reset it, to try and open it again. Well, when she closed the door, he said he thought she was in the car. Now these are older people. She had— I, this is all accurate. I'm not exaggerating this. She's in her nylon stocking and a skirt, but no shoes because she'd been driving without shoes on out on this road in not such great weather. And it's in a barren highway. I mean, there's nobody around and he drives off. Well, he's driving for about 15 minutes and he gets a phone call on his car phone and he answers the phone. He says, hello. And they said, Uh, Mr. Covey, Dr. Covey. And he said, yes. And he said, this is highway patrolman so-and-so. Um, we have your wife. And he said, he thought it was a crank call. He said, no, you don't have my wife. She's right here in the back seat. And he said, no, we have your wife. And he said, no, you're mistaken. And he's driving. And he said, no, my wife is right here. And he calls back and he goes, Sandra. And then he looks around and there's nobody in the back seat. So he pulled over and waited for them to bring his wife to them. And we learned later that what happened is someone saw this whole thing. Someone saw this, you know, his wife get out and saw him drive off and they called the police and said, somebody has just left this poor woman on the side of the road. So that has nothing to do with leadership, but it's a really funny story that he eventually started telling. His wife never appreciated the humor of that story, but he did.
Al ElliottAs an author himself, I wanted to find out from Todd what other books are essential reading for ambitious leaders.
Todd DavisToo many books come to mind. I'm a big fan of Seth Godin, and I was so honored he endorsed my book, Get Better. And that was, I think, a huge part of its success. But he wrote, he's written many books, but he wrote a book called Linchpin. And I think about that book often. It sounds like you've read it. And it's all about, you know, are you the linchpin in your organization? It's not about job security. You make sure that if you leave, the company falls apart. It just is focused on making sure that you're involved in those things that really matter most to the company. Are you the linchpin in your organization?
Leanne ElliottI love a good book recommendation. A book I have really enjoyed recently is Tell Me My Story by Dimple Dubalia. It explores the narrative of service before self in the humanitarian sector, which basically is challenging the expectations we have of people in the human services like health or humanitarian organizations when it comes to emotional labor and vicarious trauma— that's experiencing trauma through the experiences of others. It's mixed in with some of Dimple's personal experiences, that of her family. It's such a good read, so good in fact that Dimple will be joining us on the show next Thursday.
Al ElliottSo that was the amazing Todd Davis, and a quick shout out to Nick Fontaine from Fin Partners who set this all up for us. If you like this, then you'll probably love our other 90+ episodes with interviews with experts. Every Thursday, as we said, we have a new episode with an expert interview. And every Tuesday, if you've forgotten, we do a slightly lighter episode we call This Week in Work, where we round up the latest work news, culture, and also host that surgery talk about. But before we go, I wanted to find out what made Todd so passionate about people. He's written 2 bestsellers, Number 1, Everyone Deserves a Great Manager, and number 2, Get Better: 15 Practices of Effective Relationships at Work. He's devoted his work life to creating amazing workplaces and employee experiences. So what's made him the way that he is?
Todd DavisI remember as a young, as a young kid right outta high school, I was apply— I applied for a job at a bank and, um, I was excited and I also had a lot of debts I needed to pay or some Some, I needed to make some money. And I remember, uh, I remember when they told me they would get back with me, they didn't. And a week later they didn't. And I remember, and I was 16 or 17, I remember thinking I would never make someone feel this way. You know, and I was a young, uh, naive kid, but I remember, you know, as a large bank, I'm sure they had a lot of candidates to, they were interviewing for different things and I was interviewing for a teller job. And I do remember thinking, I never thought I'd go into HR, but I remember thinking, if I were in charge, I would never make someone feel this way. I would make sure that they are aware. I would remember how this feels to be on the other end of waiting to hear back from someone. So that's just, I haven't thought about that for a long time, but you just caused me to think about that. But I think that most people, most people want to be valued. They want, and they want to be a part of something that makes a difference.
Al ElliottYeah.
Todd DavisWe don't like to admit it, but we all want to be recognized. We want to make a difference. We want to matter. It's not a bad ego thing. And so, and so I think, I think I have loved being in a position to help other leaders realize that the importance of those, those things in, in, in relationships. And at the end of the day, you know, I was, I was, uh, this is a while ago, but I was driving somewhere and there was, I was following a big truck that was pulling a trailer that was pulling a boat. I mean, it seemed like they had like 20 V toys, you know, and they had a bumper sticker on the back of all this that said, he who dies with the most toys wins. And I was laughing at that because this person clearly had a lot of toys from there. They were towing down the street. And I laughed about that. And then I just thought to myself, gosh, I'd love to have every one of those things. And I think that he or she who dies with the most Meaningful relationships really wins. I think at the end of the day, it's all about relationships.
Leanne ElliottWhat a way to leave it. To find out more, go to getbetterbook.com or find Todd on LinkedIn. Links in the show notes. So I guess we'll see you on Tuesday.
Al ElliottYeah, we better had, or we're going to give you a call and find out where you are because Tuesday is where it is the new Thursday. Is that right? No, they're both the same.
Leanne ElliottTuesday's Thursdays are equally important.
Al ElliottSo just don't do anything on a Tuesday or Thursday because you'll be listening to us.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottSo we'll see you on Tuesday unless you haven't left a review, in which case, no, you're not allowed to listen to Tuesdays. You're gonna have to wait until you've written a review and then we'll let you listen to Tuesdays. Bye for now.
Todd DavisBye.
Al ElliottSo that was the amazing, amazing Does it reach it? Rewind.
Leanne ElliottYou do it with a bit more enthusiasm.
Al ElliottWhat, I got told off?
Leanne ElliottIf you listen back, just show you like, clearly, no one clearly understood this.
Al ElliottLeanne's been practicing some Welsh, I think, haven't you?
Leanne ElliottYn hawnda i croeso i Truth, Lies and Work podcast.