Episode 04 · 19 July 2022 · 20:23
How To Recruit For Culture Fit (HINT: Don't)
How To Recruit For Culture Fit (HINT: Don't)
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What is culture, really?
The problem with culture fit as a hiring strategy
How predictive is culture fit vs. other methods?
Where to start instead: understand the role
When culture fit does work — and when it doesn't
Subcultures and microcultures
The JFK janitor story
Is culture fit ever a good idea?
Groupthink: the hidden danger of hiring for fit
The 10-second synopsis
Show notes
How To Recruit For Culture Fit (HINT: Don't)
Truth, Lies & Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Business Psychologist and lead consultant at Oblong) take on one of the most popular hiring trends of the last decade: recruiting for culture fit. Was it ever more than a fad? And is there anything worth keeping from the culture-fit playbook?
Leanne breaks down what culture actually is (and why most companies get it wrong), why culture fit predicts less than 2% of future job performance, and how to know when it is the right lens for hiring. Plus, the JFK janitor story, the dangers of groupthink, and the 10-second synopsis on whether you should recruit for culture fit at all.
🔍 The Big Question: Should You Recruit for Culture Fit?
Ten years ago, "culture fit" was the hiring buzzword on every CEO's lips. But Leanne's verdict is clear: culture fit alone accounts for less than 2% of future job performance. Compare that with general mental ability (IQ), which predicts around 42% of performance — and it's easy to see why hiring for "fit" as a primary strategy is a mistake.
That said, culture fit isn't worthless. The key is knowing when it matters and when it's a distraction. Leanne walks through the distinction between hiring for fit and hiring for values alignment — and why the latter might be the more useful framing.
🧠 What You'll Learn
- What culture actually is — and why most companies misunderstand it
- Why culture fit is a weak predictor of future job performance (and what to use instead)
- The role of subcultures — why one company can have many microcultures, and why that's okay
- The groupthink trap — how hiring for fit can create teams that are too comfortable to challenge each other
- When culture fit IS the right call — and how sophisticated organisations approach it
- The JFK janitor story — and what it teaches us about values-driven work
💡 Key Takeaways
- Culture fit is not a reliable predictor of performance. It accounts for less than 2% of future job success — so don't build your hiring strategy around it.
- Start with the role, not the culture. Understanding the competencies the job actually requires is far more predictive than asking "will they fit in?"
- Culture fit has a place — but only as one element. For values-driven organisations, recruiting for alignment on core values can work. Just don't let it override everything else.
🎧 Mentioned in This Episode
- Nudge — the UK's number one marketing podcast, hosted by Phil Agnew. Check out their episode on fake fandom and "Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?" wherever you get your podcasts.
📬 Get in Touch
Want a chat with Leanne about how you can build an amazing workplace culture? Email: podcast@oblonghq.com
Got feedback, questions, or future guest suggestions? Email us at the same address: podcast@oblonghq.com
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more. Nice.
Al ElliottCheck out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Okay, so if someone's listening to this and thinking, shit, this is the way that I recruit at the moment based on culture fit, then what should they be doing differently? How do they pivot and transition to potentially a more reliable way of recruiting? Hey, welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast. This is a podcast for business owners who want to build high-performing teams that genuinely care about the business you've built. I'm Al Elliott.
Leanne ElliottI'm Leanne Elliott.
Al ElliottAnd together we co-founded a consultancy called Oblong, which is all about how you can get better people to have fewer surprises and grow faster. So today we are talking about culture fit and how to recruit for culture fit. So, Leanne, who is, by the way, our lead consultant, our expert, our scientist, you've got 14 years in the field, you've got master's degrees, you've got all kinds of qualifications, you're our expert, you're gonna be telling us all about how to recruit for culture fit. Is that fair?
Leanne ElliottYes, it is. And I think, yes, no, I am, I'm a business psychologist, and I've been working in people and culture for many years, both as a consultant and as a manager myself. Recruiting for culture fit, don't. Next question.
Al ElliottAnd thank you for listening. See you next time. So, first of all, let's just start off with the basic question, which I had to ask you, which is, what is culture fit?
Leanne ElliottI think to answer that, we first need to understand what culture is. And therein lies the biggest problem with recruiting for culture fit. There are more than 50 definitions of what organisational culture is. People can barely agree, from as simple as, you know, that That famous quote, culture is what we do around here, right through to thinking about more of the constructs, the rituals, the behaviours you expect to see within your culture, the values and beliefs. Unless you really understand the definition of culture you're choosing to adopt within your organisation and the organisational culture you have and how that's translated into your operations and processes, then recruiting for culture fit is as useful as saying, I'm only going to recruit Scorpios because I hear they're Tasty.
Al ElliottSo, so back in, back in the day when I was building my second business, I was reading lots and lots of books, uh, Good to Great by Jim Collins, Remote by the guys from 37signals, all these classic books. And they were kind of suggesting, oh, you recruit for culture fit. You— Zappos was another one, I think, where they said that they encourage people to bring their friends in to work with them. Now, I'm guessing that the science has moved on a little bit, and maybe we've moved on as employers. So Why would someone not want to recruit for culture fit these days?
Leanne ElliottCulture is undeniably an incredibly important part about organizations and organizational performance. Recruiting for culture fit, however, is tricky. It's not impossible, but it's tricky. And the reality is, unless you are at that level of— I can't even say it. And the reality is, unless you're at that level of sophistication within your business, then it's very difficult to reliably assess candidates' knowledge, skills, and abilities, their competencies within the context of your culture. So, if you would have listened last week to the podcast or yesterday, how often do these come out? The last episode. You would have heard us talk about recruitment and the science of recruitment. And a big part of the science of recruitment is that the recruitment methods we have, whether it be interviews, psychometrics, work sample tests is that they offer predictions of future work performance. Predictions of future work performance vary. So, we have over 100 years of research, and that research has identified roughly 30 predictors or recruitment methods that are predictive of job performance. And yes, one of them is culture fit.
Al ElliottBefore we go any further, can you just give us an idea of, for people like me who don't really understand what predictors are, so can you give an example of a predictor?
Leanne ElliottYeah. So, job interviews, for example, are a predictor. It's a recruitment method that is predictive of future work performance. So, in its most simple terms, if a candidate performs well at interview, then that's going to predict a certain percentage of how well they're going to perform on the job.
Al ElliottRight. Okay.
Leanne ElliottAnd so, you were saying that culture is potentially a predictor, but it's nowhere near as important as people are putting Culture fit is a predictor, but as I mentioned then, each predictor has different levels of variance in terms of how predictive it is. So, we think about, if, you know, in an ideal world, we'd take a candidate through a process and be able to 100% predict with confidence that because they performed well in that process, they're going to 100% perform well on the job. It's not quite that straightforward because people are complicated, they have free will, behaviours change, context, etc. So, we can only assign a certain percentage of predictability. Okay. to each of these methods. In terms of the most predictive and consistently found to be the most predictive or the best predictor of job performance is general mental ability or IQ. And that's predictive of about 42% of future job performance. If we compare that to other methods such as employment interviews, which is very, very popular, that's about 34%. Then we get into the more nitty-gritty, some psychometrics, integrity tests, for example, is about 21%. Certain personality inventories are about 10%.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo it drops further and further. Culture fit is on the list. However, it accounts for less than 2% of future job performance.
Al ElliottSo if I've understood this correctly, then if I was to recruit 100 people based on culture fit alone and nothing else, then only 2 of them are likely to pan out for me because there's a 2.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWhereas if I predicted 100 people based on— what was the top one you just mentioned?
Leanne ElliottGeneral mental ability or IQ.
Al ElliottOkay. So, if you always predict on IQ, then you're saying that out of those 100, 54 would work out?
Leanne Elliott42.
Al ElliottSorry, 42.
Leanne ElliottYeah, roughly half. Half of the candidates who perform well in general mental ability are going to perform well in the job, roughly. It's not quite that straightforward, but it's an idea of kind of the power of that method in terms of predicting future performance of candidates that is the most reliable.
Al ElliottOkay, so if someone's listening to this and thinking, shit, this is the way that I recruit at the moment based on culture fit, then what should they be doing differently? How do they pivot and transition to potentially a more reliable way of recruiting?
Leanne ElliottI think that the first step, and as we talked about last week, is to understand the role that you're recruiting for and the, the knowledge, skills, and abilities or competencies that, that you need for, you know, it's going to enable somebody to perform well within that role and the function of that role within your business. Once you understand that, then you can look at different methods that are more predictive of future performance and using a mixed methods approach, again, as we chatted about last week. So, general mental ability tests, IQ tests are very predictive. Employment interviews are number 2. Integrity tests, psychometrics, and using a combination of these methods that are more closely linked to the job rather than the individual and their beliefs, which are less tangible.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottFocusing your assessment methods on the, the competencies you need for that job is going to be much more a reliable method.
Al ElliottSo let me ask you then, let's assume that, um, well, let's just say that you were talking about Google or Zappos. I won't use Amazon because they've got a negative culture from what it appears, but Zappos has got a very clear culture, it appears. They've even written a book on it. Um, so is it okay for them to recruit on culture fit?
Leanne ElliottSo, organisations at that level of their understanding of their organisational culture are much more sophisticated in that it's translated to every level of their business. So, finding employees who can do a job is absolutely critical. Finding employees that can add to your culture is also important. And if you're at a point where you feel your culture has reached that level of sophistication like Google, then It's going to translate or transcend from kind of beyond culture fit to more than assessing competencies that are in line with your culture. So, shall I give you an example?
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottSo, in terms of recruitment, let's say one of the core values of your company is to be bold in the pursuit of new business, new customers. Then, that value, if it's embedded in the culture, Then their leaders, the leaders of the business and their teams would have agreed on what types of behaviours constitute being bold. There's a clear and broad consensus of what these positive behaviours are, such as maybe thinking outside the box, being innovative in terms of expanding customer business. What they also would have done is added those relevant tasks into the job description. So then, you know, a task of your expectation of job is that you proactively network. work and conduct outreach activities to identify new business opportunities. More so than that, it's going to translate into training, development, operations. So, let's say, for example, an organisation might have created a business development playbook with best practice examples or suggested communications templates of how to pursue new business boldly. And then, of course, you're going to have performance metrics in place as well that are going to make sure that people are kind of working towards that as well. Yeah. that target. In that case, and to be bold is authentic. It's a lived-in value of the business and the people in it. It's woven into the fabric of that culture. So, at that level, recruiting for people who are bold is tangible because you understand what that means. It's measurable, and therefore, it's going to be more predictive of job performance. Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast, that's Us, by the way.
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back. Because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. But let me ask you then, if, if you've got an organisation of a reasonable size, let's say 50 people, which is, you know, not a small organisation, then do you think that the culture might vary depending on the function? For example, if you're looking— if you've got a team of creatives, you want them to think outside the box, like you said, be creative. However, the same team of 5 people who do the accounts, you do not want them to be creative and think outside the box. So, can there be subcultures within an actual, within an overall culture?
Leanne ElliottThere absolutely can be, yeah. They're called subcultures or microcultures. You do see it more so in larger businesses, but yeah, even, you know, organisations of 20 could have microcultures within the business as well. And that is a symptom of 2 things. Either one, the broader overarching culture hasn't been well defined, and/or 2, it's not been embedded within the organisation, within the managers, within the behaviours, within the processes. So, the reason those microcultures appear is going to be because each manager has a different interpretation of how that element of culture translates into operations, um, and that is going to vary. In terms of positively having subcultures or microcultures, I'm not sure. I understand what you mean about how you don't want your accountants to be overly creative, but at the same time, you want them to be creative within the law. There's going to be tax breaks or loopholes or programs or incentives that, you know, An accountant that thinks outside the box or is well-researched in their field are going to understand and bring to the attention of the business owner. Yes, in terms of more creative fields, that carries a little bit less risk and is a bit more playful, perhaps. But the behaviours are the same, or the value is the same. How those behaviours translate may be subtly different.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottbetween functions, but ultimately it's all part of the same value.
Al ElliottSo you have a great story, which I think we might even have told before on the podcast about the janitor. This pervert. I think, I think this is going to be like a recurring theme as every time I bring up this story about the janitor. But will you tell the story again? Because I think that—
Leanne ElliottSure. Yeah. So there's a story that goes around. Maybe it's urban legend. I don't know. But that, yeah, JFK was visiting NASA in the '60s when they were working in the race to put a man on the moon, and the president turned to the janitor and said, what's your role here? And the janitor said, I'm here to put a man on the moon, sir.
Al ElliottSorry, I had a mouthful of water then. Yep. And I think that's— I get the idea. I get culture now. I do. I used to think culture was all about, oh, you define it. You sit there in a room, you define it, and then you go out and you write it on the wall and everyone does it. And obviously, I can see that. Now, are there any circumstances where it is okay to recruit for culture fit?
Leanne ElliottCulture fit alone? No, it's not. To be an element within your decisions? Yes. And particularly as the recruitment process goes on. So, for example, if you've defined your job very clearly, you've done a thorough job analysis, you've understood your competencies, you've designed a recruitment process that reliably and validly measures those, you've assessed candidates against a set criteria, and you've got 2 candidates who are matched dead on marks, then you might think a bit more about culture fit, about values, about the alignment of the individual with the values of your organisation, perhaps. But even then, there's an argument to pick the person who doesn't fit your culture as much as you, you might think the other one does.
Al ElliottExplain a bit more about that.
Leanne ElliottSo, there's a phenomenon in psychology called groupthink. It basically means that groups that are very familiar, whether it be in an organisation or outside of work, the group is striving for consensus. Often in these environments, they're very friction-free, they're very smooth, but there's less critical thinking, there's less challenge, there's less diversity of thought, and that itself can can squash things like creativity, innovation, or even, you know, just people going the extra mile. Consensus, yeah, it would bring you a quiet life as a leader, but it's probably not going to be the best enabler of growth.
Al ElliottSo, in that, we're just thinking about that then. So, if I'm recruiting for a, not necessarily a leadership position, this is someone who might be you know, a creative or something, or might be a developer or something like that, then I can totally see why culture is a bad idea to even consider culture unless it's the very last differentiator. I can see that. But if you're talking about what you just said there, leadership— so you've got someone who's coming in as the creative director and everyone else has got this groupthink and they're all like one, one type of person— Then from what you're saying, it sounds like it's bit more important to consider this idea of someone who is slightly different to the culture. Have I misunderstood?
Leanne ElliottYou know, it's that famous Einstein quote, isn't it? It's, we cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. If you've always got that same thinking within your business and you're coming across challenges or roadblocks to performance that you can't get over, this whole phenomenon of groupthink is, is not going to help. You need somebody who is going to be different, think about things differently, or inspire other people, allow other people to think differently. Um, yeah, you need that, that dynamic environment, particularly in small businesses that are trying to grow.
Al ElliottBut then from— I'm just thinking about what you said there, and groupthink doesn't sound necessarily like a culture, just more that it just so happened you have 15 people who all think similarly. Or is it a culture thing?
Leanne ElliottI think it can be an element of culture. Yeah, not probably not a desirable one. It might be in some areas. So for example, if you work in, I don't know, an area of compliance, for example, you might want everyone on the same page in terms of that level of governance. Um, but yeah, even then, it's, it's more of a case that if you're recruiting for culture fit in a way that is not done— in a way that is not done in an organization where the culture is fully understood, people are with it, and it's embedded within the operations and process in the organization— that the danger is, at best, you're going to recruit people like you. And then if you recruit people like you, you're going to be more susceptible to groupthink. You're not going to have that diversity of thought to solve the problems that are inherent in growing a business.
Al ElliottSo give us your sort of 10-second synopsis. We've obviously said to start off by saying, should you recruit for culture fit? And you said no. But can you give us a little synopsis on why that's a bad idea for anyone who's listening?
Leanne ElliottSure. So, the reality is that culture fit is not a reliable way of predicting future job performance. It accounts for less than 2% of future job performance. There are much better predictors out there, from general mental ability tests, simple interviews, much more predictive of future job performance than culture fit is. Secondly, the issue with culture fit is that unless it is— and I know I keep going on about this, but culture isn't just values on the wall or how we do things around here. It is ingrained and embedded.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottwithin every element of your organisation, and it promotes those positive behaviours that are reflective of that culture. If you are at that level, then recruiting for culture fit might work for you.
Al ElliottOkay, so if you're interested in learning a bit more about the roadmap that Leanne's talked about, stage 1, for, go to oblonghq.com/roadmap. There'll be a link in the show notes. If you Leanne to help you with your recruitment, then just send an email to leanne@oblonghq.com. And if you've got anything else you want to talk about in terms of the podcast, which is feedback, you think you'd be a good guest, great, we'll definitely chat to you about that, or anything else, just email podcast@oblonghq.com. Great. Well, I think that's the end of episode 4. We haven't decided what episode 5 is yet, so going to be a surprise for all of us. But until then, bye-bye.
Leanne ElliottBye.
Al ElliottBye now. Bye.