Episode 07 · 9 August 2022 · 22:48
Why These 7 (Unlikely) Leadership Books Deserve Your Attention
Why These 7 (Unlikely) Leadership Books Deserve Your Attention
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Why this episode happened (and the format twist)
Leanne's reading style vs. Al's reading style
Book #1 — Leanne's pick: The Leader's Guide to Resilience by Dr. Audrey Tang
Book #2 — Al's pick: Good to Great by Jim Collins
Book #3 — Leanne's pick: The Promises of Giants by John Amaechi
Book #4 — Al's pick: Maverick by Ricardo Semler
Book #5 — Leanne's pick: Neuroscience for Organisational Change by Hilary Scarlett
Book #6 — Al's pick: Always Time for Coffee (a confession included)
Book #7 — Leanne's pick: Time to Think by Nancy Kline
Al's unscripted bonus book
Show notes
Why These 7 (Unlikely) Leadership Books Deserve Your Attention
It's August — which means sunny days, downtime, and the perfect excuse to build a summer reading list that actually makes you better at work.
In this bonus episode, Al and Leanne ditch the usual format and share their top 7 book recommendations for leaders. But fair warning: this isn't your standard business-book canon. Expect basketball analogies, a man in a waistcoat, a book Al admits he hasn't read, and at least one pick that might just change how you think about listening.
So grab a beer, a glass of crisp white wine, or a cup of tea — and let's dive in.
📚 The 7 Books (Plus a Bonus)
1. The Leader's Guide to Resilience — Dr. Audrey Tang Leanne's pick for when you're feeling on the edge. Everything you need to know about building resilience, written by someone who's also lovely — and yes, she's been on their other podcast.
2. Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don't — Jim Collins Al's pick from his 30th birthday year (2007, if you're counting). The classic on what separates companies that plateau from companies that leap.
3. The Promises of Giants — John Amaechi Leanne's pick. A Sunday Times bestseller from a man who was big in the NBA — and uses that height analogy brilliantly when talking about leadership.
4. Maverick — Ricardo Semler Al's pick. The story of how Semler essentially sacked all his managers — and the unofficial award for best book cover goes to... a man in a waistcoat with a tie, crouching down. Everything you want from a book.
5. Neuroscience for Organisational Change — Hilary Scarlett Leanne's pick. If you think this people-and-culture stuff is rooted, this book will show you it's not — it's real, evidence-based science.
6. Always Time for Coffee: A Down-to-Earth Guide for Frontline Managers, Team Leaders & Supervisors — (Author TBC) Al's pick, and a bit of a cheat — he hasn't actually read it. But he's ordered it, and it looks just as good as expected. He'll lend it to Leanne.
7. Time to Think: Listening to Ignite the Human Mind — Nancy Kline Leanne's final pick. A step-by-step guide to the power of listening — and the book that inspired Al and Leanne's own approach to communication.
Bonus: Rework — the founders of Basecamp Al's unscripted addition. Short, easy, and genuinely interesting — Leanne's read it too and confirms it's worth your time.
🎧 Why Listen?
If you've ever wondered what books actually shape how leaders think — not the ones people name-drop at conferences, but the ones they actually recommend to each other — this episode is for you.
Al and Leanne aren't just listing titles. They're explaining why each book matters, what it changed about their thinking, and how you can apply it. Plus, you get the banter. And the margarita recommendation.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottBut he was actually big in the, uh, the US basketball— I want to say the NBA.
Al ElliottI suppose you have to be big to be in basketball, don't you?
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by Oblong, a consultancy dedicated to building workplace cultures in which your employees care as much about your business as you do. I'm Leanne.
Al ElliottAnd I'm Al.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back.
Al ElliottHello. Hello again. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hello. Oh, by the way, if you, if you've listened from episode 1, drop us an email, podcast@oblonghq.com. Let us know. If you're the first one, you'll win a prize.
Leanne ElliottYou'll get a badge.
Al ElliottWe'll have to get some badges made, I think. Anyways, what are we talking about today, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottWell, today is a little bit of a bonus episode, really. It's one that, um, we hadn't planned for, and we have others planned for that will be coming to you very, very soon. Um, but we were thinking, you know, August is here, we're getting a lot of out of offices, a lot of people that are on their jolly bobs, which is brilliant. We all need to rest and recharge, and I'm all for that. If you are a leader, a business owner, take that holiday, my friend. Switch your phone off, do not check your emails, relax, recharge. It is so, so important for your resilience, for your mental health, for your ability to run a business. You need to take that time. But if you really, really can't switch off, then we have got for you 7 of our recommended business books/psychology books that we will be— either have read this summer or will be adding to our reading list.
Al ElliottBrilliant. So, what you'll find is that the format of this podcast is a little different in that Leanne's the expert. I'm not. So what Leanne is, a business psychologist, uh, 15 years, loads of, loads of things after her name that I don't know what they mean. Um, I've got no experience like that. However, what I have got is experience of building businesses and, um, running businesses. So you'll find that very much the format is that Leanne will say something which might be quite scientific, and then I'll be saying, but what does that actually mean for someone who runs a business? Although that's probably not gonna be the format for today because we're only really talking— well, it depends what kind of books you've chosen.
Leanne ElliottMy books are, are more of a psychology leaning. I'm I'm not gonna lie, but they are not heavy, they're not academic or anything like that. But yeah, maybe if I throw out some terms, then please pull me up, Al.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Okay, so, and by the way, just mine are probably the opposite. They're written with sort of reading age of 7, which is good for me because it takes me a little while to get through books. So, tell us, Leanne, what is your first choice for leaders on holiday who can't switch off and want to read something a little bit light, Um, to make them a better leader is— that's probably not gonna be the title of our podcast, is it?
Leanne ElliottIt's not catchy. Awesome reading list. And my first one is actually a really good one. If you are feeling on the edge of burnout, you really should be switching off, my friend. But if you absolutely can't, this is probably a good book to start with. So this is The Leader's Guide to Resilience by Dr. Audrey Tang, released in 2022. And it is really just such an easy reading book. It's not like a chapter-by-chapter book. It's, it's full of like, like tips, strategies, all rooted in psychological theory, of course, but really to help you as a leader and your organization just withstand the pressures that this crazy world is throwing at us at the minute and continue to grow and thrive. Um, it is brilliant. And if you don't know of Dr. Audrey, I highly recommend you look her up on LinkedIn, on TikTok, and Instagram. She has some brilliant channels, um, that are just really really like just bite-sized bits of wisdom that you can help to build your resilience, to practice mindfulness. Um, she is fantastic. And if you don't believe me, then believe the industry, because she's also won the 2021 Firebird Book Winner Prize, and she's also shortlisted for Business Book of the Year 2022.
Al ElliottNice, well done, Dr. Tang.
Leanne ElliottShe's also lovely. She's actually been on our, on our other podcast. Um, if you're interested, if you search A Side of His Life, uh, Dr. Audrey Tang, you'll find her episode and she is just fabulous.
Al ElliottShe is, she is. She's brilliant. And got her, and, and as a, as a fellow nerd for cameras and, and audio, she's got a great setup. I definitely fanboyed over what she was, uh, over her setup. Okay. So my second, well, my first choice, book number 2 is a classic, which I'll be honest, you probably have, you've almost certainly heard of, you've probably read, and it's called Good to Great By Jim Collins, and it's why some companies make the leap and others don't. Now, this is probably going back, I don't know, maybe 15 years old, this, this, this book. But the reasons why— well, let me tell you why I first read it. I was reading it when I was building a company back in 2008, and I just didn't know, and I didn't know what culture was. I didn't know how culture or company culture was going to have any kind of impact. On profits, on that kind of thing. And so we're only a small company at the time, and I thought it— I sat down to read this, and I think I read it almost like in one sitting. It's just little short stories about companies that do things a little bit differently and the lessons behind it. He has written another one called Built to Last. It might be— this might be the second one. I can't remember if it's the first or the second, but it's really, really easy to read. It's full of stories, which is what I love. And although, all right, they're going to be a bit dated at this point, but there's still some great lessons to be learned from them. So that's mine, which is Jim Collins, Good to Great.
Leanne ElliottLovely. See, what I love about this, Al, is you were already thinking about the relationship between leadership, organisational, and performance when you were a mere 20-what?
Al ElliottWell, in 2007, I would have been just turned 30.
Leanne ElliottJust turned 30.
Al ElliottFresh-faced.
Leanne ElliottFresh-faced and, and yeah, great, great lessons I'm sure are still very much applicable today. So number 3, my second choice, um, is possibly— it's by possibly one of my favorite people in the world, let alone favorite psychologists in the world. And it's the guy called Jon Amici, and the book is called The Promises of Giants, released in 2021. Jon Amici, you may have heard of him. He is British, but he was actually big in the, uh, the US basketball. I want to say the NBA.
Al ElliottI suppose you have to be big to be in basketball, don't you?
Leanne ElliottOh yes, you do. And he is indeed very tall. Um, and that is kind of the analogy that he uses when talking about leadership, is that as a leader you are a giant. And even a movement that seems quite, quite small, if it's not considered, if it's not thought through, um, if it's accidental, um, it can have huge impacts, um, and can be very destructive. But he writes about it in a way that is very engaging. He shares a lot of his own life and experiences as well, right through from when he was a child through his sports career, now into his psychology career. Um, it's just brilliant. And there's so many things that I've already taken from it, but I think one of the ones that really stuck with me is that you can't— the most valuable piece of information someone can give you is helping you understand as a leader where you are right now. Because If you don't know where you are, how do you know how to get to where you're going? I think it's such a valuable lesson. It's such a simple thing, but we're so busy as, as leaders, as business owners, that we often don't look up and just check where we are. Um, so some really great lessons in there as well. Um, and again, if you don't believe me, this was called by Adam Grant, another amazing occupational psychologist. Um, he said this is one of the most powerful books ever written about leadership. Um, and I, I totally agree with him. If you're— I'm with that. If you're not in the mood to read on your holiday, I'd highly recommend checking out the Adam Grant TED podcast, Work Life, where he talks about lots of different organisational phenomena and your role as a leader within it. So, that's my number 2, The Promises of Giants by Jon Amici.
Al ElliottBrilliant. And we will put these in the show notes, so you don't have to write them down. If you've gone to the beach without— well, actually, if you've gone to the beach already, then one of these is going to be difficult for you to get, but the rest of them should be available on Kindle, I would have thought.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottDefinitely. And if you are on the beach listening to us, then, well, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Yeah, it's a good thing because you're listening to us.
Leanne ElliottSure, why not? Order a margarita, treat yourself.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. Okay, so my, my book number 3 for me wins several awards, unofficial awards. First of all, the award for the most difficult to get hold of book because it's not on Kindle, it's on hardback. Which currently on Amazon is £1.95. What a bargain. Um, and it's also in paperback. Uh, second award it wins is the most '80s cover. It is fantastic. I'm just going to show Leanne the COVID now.
Leanne ElliottOh, beautiful. Wow.
Al ElliottIt's fabulous. It's a man in a, in a waistcoat with a tie crouching down. It's just everything you want from an '80s cover, and because it was written in the '80s. And, and the third award it wins is that it is kind of not the kind of book that I would normally pick up, but I got recommended it. Essentially, it's by a guy called Ricardo Semler, who's Brazilian. His family's Brazilian, and they had a company called Semler in Brazil back in the '80s. He took over from his father, and he immediately made quite some substantial changes. He fired almost all of the managers, like the C-suite. He got rid of the receptionists, the secretaries. There was no dress code. The employees could actually set their own salary. And this is back in 1980. So when he took over it, he even said that you can work anywhere you want. I mean, we're talking 40 years ago, and this is remote working. And his company, Semler, I think it went about 600% in period of like 5 or 6 years when back in the time when there was a recession and it was tough and Brazilian economy was even tougher. Um, really, really good book. A little more difficult to read, not quite as simple as some of the others. Um, but oh my God, what, what a man. What a legend. I don't even know whether he's still alive actually. I might have to find out.
Leanne ElliottQuite the pioneer. Yeah. To be talking about that kind of people and culture, that level of Sophistication of people and culture practices in, um, in 1980. That's, that's pretty cool. I need to add that to my summer reading list.
Al ElliottWell, the good news is that I have it. I ordered it and it came, and it— and the, and the book looks just as '80s in real life as it does on Amazon.
Leanne ElliottExcellent.
Al ElliottSo I'll lend you that.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are Both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back. I'll cut that out. So the next book on our list, my choice, and bear with me on this one, okay? Because I know I'm gonna say the title and you're gonna switch off, but bear with me. So it is called Neuroscience for Organizational Change by Hilary Scarlett, published in 2019. Now I know you hear neuroscience and you think, no, that's just another level of Psychologizing I do not need in my life right now, Leanne. I understand. But the funny thing about it is that because it's talking about neuroscience, our need as humans, our evolutionary need for connection at work, of how best to manage our emotions, how we make decisions, how we communicate, it actually breaks it down in a way that if you do think all this stuff is, dare I say, fluffy—
Al ElliottOh, you hate that word.
Leanne ElliottTriggered. Um, then it's really going to show you that it's not. It is, you know, these types of things are rooted in our evolution as humans. And again, it's not heavy, it's not academic, it's broken down to really nice little chapters. It does cover some of the actual neuroscience if you are interested, but it also then shows you how to actually apply that. And the way it's structured is really, really good. People that I have met, clients I've worked with who love this book, are usually from some kind of technical field— finance, technology perhaps. If that is your background and you are a facts evidence person, um, then you are going to love this. It's going to explain people and culture in a way that, that will be much easier for you to, to digest. So yeah, that's my next choice, Neuroscience for Organisational Change by Hilary Scarlett.
Al ElliottFabulous. So is that our number 4 book?
Leanne ElliottOh, I've lost count. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. I think that was number 5.
Al ElliottNumber 5. So number 6 is— it's a bit of a cheat, this one. I'm sorry, I've not actually read this. However, and I know that's going against the rules, however, I've seen lots and lots of people talking about it, and I've done a little sort of synopsis on Amazon, and it does look really good. And it's called Always Time for Coffee by Kate Minchin. Now, the whole— the subtitle is A Down-to-Earth Guide for Frontline Managers, Team Leaders, and Supervisors. Kate started off in fringe theatre, and then she moved into ops management, then she worked for a museum, and her passion is to help Um, teams perform better. But I'm guessing that, that, that the book is going to be about how you actually do it on an interpersonal, rather than going, right, we're going to set out all these different ways in which a team is now going to do things. She just sits down with people and goes, yeah, of course I've got time for a coffee. What's going on? And this is very much, if you listen to Leanne, um, in any of the formats that she talks, she always talks about this idea that, um, that being a good manager is not about Shouting at people using a stick or even like a carrot. It's about just going, hey, how are you? What's going on? You didn't look quite as happy this morning as you did last week. Is there anything up? And I think this is gonna be a really, really good book. Uh, she seems like a really cool person. She's, uh, she moved with her wife to, uh, New York. She's originally, um, English or British. Um, and apparently they ride motorbikes all over the world and drink far too much coffee.
Leanne ElliottThere we go. Sounds, sounds fabulous. Any, um, any relation to Tim?
Al ElliottOh, great question. I don't think so. I don't think so. But it'd be funny if she was like a distant relation or something. She was in the theatre, so maybe.
Leanne ElliottThat's what I'm thinking. That's what I'm thinking.
Al ElliottBut you know what, I will tweet her later and I'll ask her if she's any relation to Tim and also mention that we've mentioned her on this podcast. And so she should tell the world while she's on a bike about our podcast.
Leanne ElliottMaybe. And I'm sure she's never been asked that question before. I'm sure it'll go down fine.
Al ElliottSo on to the final number 7 book. What have you got?
Leanne ElliottSo my final choice, I Too, Al, Am a Rebel. I also have not read this book, although I have recently purchased it and it's on, is on my next to read list. Um, so yeah, I do. It's been recommended to me by an amazing executive coach, um, who is just brilliant. Um, and it's— I think when I tell you the subject, Al, you'll probably get why I want to read this and why I'm fairly confident it's going to be a good read. So, it's called Time to Think: Listening to Ignite the Human Mind by Nancy Kline, published back in 2002, but I think the lessons will still be very, very valid. So, the idea is that the power of effective listening is just, as you know, it's a recognised tool. Like you were just saying, Al, a good manager is able to listen.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, Nancy Kline describes how we can achieve this. It's a step-by-step guide that can be used in lots of different situations. So again, this sounds very practical, very hands-on, and very action-driven, which we like. So yeah, that's my, that's my final choice. And I think, yeah, listening is absolutely key. And if you know Al and I, you'll know that listening has been central to everything we've done together since 2014.
Al Elliott2014.
Leanne Elliott7.
Al ElliottHmm, so can we, can we tell them what we used to do?
Leanne ElliottSure, sure. That was your little cue. I was just tuning up for you.
Al ElliottTalking of listening and communication, I really, I think I might have missed that little cue. Yes, we, we both met at Samaritans. No, I, I wasn't a caller. Um, we both were volunteering at Samaritans and we ended up doing all kinds of things. Samaritans training team, Leanne was on the selection team. Uh, we ended up being on the board. Um, I ran the branch and then also worked in the, in the prison, strange ways. Um, or it's called Manchester Prison now. And we got such a breadth of experience of listening and learning how to listen that it was just one of the most amazing experiences. So if you are looking for somewhere to volunteer and you're in the UK, definitely think about Samaritans because it's not— you, you're not even giving back because you probably take out of it more than you actually will give.
Leanne ElliottDefinitely. We, yeah, as we've, we've said many times to each other, to our clients, to people we know, we've The lessons we learn in that 5-year Samaritans continue to be applicable to our life and career today. So, thank you, Samaritans. And to remind you again, that is Time to Think by Nancy Kline.
Al ElliottTalking of reminding, shall we just go back over them one more time?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottDo you have your number 1 to hand?
Leanne ElliottSo, my number 1 was The Leader's Guide to Resilience by Dr. Audrey Tang. Everything you need to know about building your resilience. Resilience in this crazy world.
Al ElliottMy number 2 was Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don't by Jim Collins. Such a great book, an inspiration on how you can change— small changes can make a big difference in a business.
Leanne ElliottAnd number 3 was The Promises of Giants by Jon Amici. Um, it is a Sunday Times bestseller. You can get it on Kindle or in hardback. Um, and it is just brilliant in terms of Helping you understand your responsibilities, accountabilities as a leader, written from a very empathic viewpoint. Um, it is— it can't be beaten. It is possibly the best book on leadership I've ever read.
Al ElliottThat was number 3, was it?
Leanne ElliottThat was number 3.
Al ElliottSo number 4 for me was a book called Maverick by Ricardo Semler, how basically he sacked all of his managers, told everyone they can work wherever they want for whatever salary they want, and then built and grew his business, or his father's business that he took over, 6,000% during a recession in Brazil. Maverick by Ricardo Semler.
Leanne ElliottNumber 5 was Neuroscience for Organisational Change by Hilary Scarlett. If you think this stuff, this people and culture stuff is fluff, I challenge you to read this and come back to me.
Al ElliottBrilliant. And number 6 was Always Time for Coffee: A Down-to-Earth Guide for Frontline Managers, Team Leaders, and Supervisors by the nomadic Kate Minchin.
Leanne ElliottAnd number 7, my final pick, Time to Think: Listening to Ignite the Human Mind by Nancy Kline, all about the power of effective listening as a leader and a manager. Read it, we'll read it together, we'll check back in in a couple of weeks.
Al ElliottBrilliant. I've got a tiny little bonus one, which is, which has not been scripted.
Leanne ElliottOh.
Al ElliottI know, which is a book by the founders of, although, sorry, the, yeah, the founders of Basecamp, Which used formerly 37signals, and I've forgotten his name, David Heineman-Henson, and you will be shouting at the other guy, Jason something. And it's called Remote, and it was written about 12 years ago. It's a tiny little book. It'll take you 2 hours and maybe 3 beers to read through it. And it is just the story of how they, 12 years ago, turned their workforce into a remote workforce and how they still are today.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBut we didn't, we didn't talk about that. So maybe you might make this, maybe edit this bit out.
Leanne ElliottNo, it's a little bonus. I've read that and it is actually a really short, easy, and interesting read. So yeah, a good one if you're, you don't want to engage in anything too heavy while you're on your holidays.
Al ElliottRight. So should we let these guys get on with, as you say, their margaritas or piña coladas? Yeah. And if you are on holiday and listening to this, then, uh, yeah, drop us an email if you fancy it. Send us some pictures of where you are, podcast@oblonghq.com. And finally, if you're interested in— when you get back to work, if you're interested in the Culture Roadmap, which is something that Leanne has put together, which is amazing, and it basically will solve any problem you've got in your business that's surrounded by people, then go to oblonghq.com/roadmap and it will blow you away, guaranteed, or your money back.
Leanne ElliottIt's free.
Al ElliottI know.
Leanne ElliottThat marketing charm coming out. Cool. Well, as Al said, we will put all of the links Um, to where you can buy, buy the books in the show notes, and I'm sure you'll see it on our socials and LinkedIn as well. Um, but yeah, let us know how you get on with them. Let us know what your favorite is out of the 7. Um, and whoever gets the most votes for our books between Al and myself will also win a prize yet to be confirmed.
Al ElliottFabulous. Looking forward to that. Okay, so we'll see you for episode 8 next, and if you've got any ideas for guests, let us know, podcast@oblonghq.com. Bye for now. Bye.