Episode 103 · 4 June 2024 · 41:00
Celebrating Pride, Unbossing Explained, PLUS We launch our Summer Book Club! - This Week in Work 4th June 2024
Celebrating Pride, Unbossing Explained, PLUS We launch our Summer Book Club! - This Week in Work 4th June 2024
0:000:00
Tip: click any timestamp below to jump there and keep playing.
Enjoying the show? Subscribe for free
Chapters & timestamps
Click any timestamp to jump the player to that moment.
Pride Month in the workplace
news roundup#pride-month#workplace#diversity
Unbossing explained
news roundup#unbossing#management#leadership
Humour and mental health research
news roundup#humour#mental-health#research
Summer Book Club launch — This Is Why You Dream
news roundup#book-club#dreams#summer
Workplace Surgery — reporting a coworker
workplace surgery#workplace-advice#reporting#coworker
Workplace Surgery — should I quit at 25?
workplace surgery#career-advice#quitting#young-professionals
Workplace Surgery — surviving redundancy culture
workplace surgery#redundancy#pip#performance
Show notes
Celebrating Pride, Unbossing Explained & Our Summer Book Club Launch!
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) celebrate Pride Month with five ways to make your workplace more inclusive, break down the "unbossing" trend sweeping workplace culture, and explore the science linking humour to mental health. Plus, they launch the Truth, Lies & Work Summer Book Club with a fascinating first pick — and tackle three listener questions in the Workplace Surgery.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. It's Pride Month — here's how to celebrate at work Leanne shares five practical ways to support LGBTQ+ colleagues this month, from organising a charity fundraiser to amplifying resources like Katherine Garrard's work. It's about more than rainbows on the logo — it's about genuine inclusion, equality, and making sure everyone can bring their full selves to work.
2. "Unbossing" — a trend worth watching? Al introduces the term making waves in workplace culture. But is removing middle management actually the answer, or are we losing the plot? Al and Leanne dig into what Gen Z actually want from leadership — and why throwing out all managers might be missing the point entirely.
3. Does humour actually help our mental health? Leanne summarises the research on humour and wellbeing — including the finding that people experiencing depression tend to enjoy depression-related memes (a sense of "normalising" the struggle). They also cover research on storytelling and memory, and why it matters for how we communicate at work.
📚 Summer Book Club — First Pick!
The Truth, Lies & Work Summer Book Club is officially open! Our first read is This Is Why You Dream by Dr. Rahul Jandial.
This fascinating dive into the purpose and potential of dreams explores how dreaming fortifies our ability to regulate emotions, processes and stores memories, amplifies creativity, and promotes learning. Discover how dreams can forecast future mental and physical ailments — and how lucid dreaming can be used to practice real-life skills and rewrite nightmares.
In the tradition of James Nestor's Breath and Matthew Walker's Why We Sleep, this book opens the door to one of our oldest and most vital functions, unlocking its potential to radically improve our lives.
(Al will be picking his book for the club in a future episode — stay tuned!)
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Reporting a coworker: "Am I wrong for reporting this person as being autistic?" — a tricky one about intent, impact, and how you make the report.
- Quarter-life crisis: "Should I quit my job at 25?" — Leanne's advice might surprise you. (Spoiler: 25 is the new 45, and you don't need to have it all figured out.)
- Redundancy culture: "My company keeps making people redundant — should I be worried?" — how to read the signs and decide if it's time to move on.
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Join the Conversation
We value your insights and questions! Email us at hi@truthliesandwork.com or leave a comment on our YouTube channel to share your thoughts and queries.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottYep. Welcome back. Welcome back as ever. Now, I said I'd start— I'd do this only for the first few, but actually I'm going to do it every time. This is Tuesday episode where we have 3 things. We have, first of all, the news roundup. We'll tell you the latest in the world of work. Secondly, we've got a segment which we're playing around with, so it's going to be different this week. You'll find out. And then thirdly, we've got this world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne and she answers them expertly and perfectly because she is an incredible human being, but also a very, very good business psychologist.
Leanne ElliottIt's a lot of pressure there. We'll see how that goes.
Al ElliottYeah, I mean, if you do a really bad job, then I will edit this bit out.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottOkay, Le, what time is it?
Leanne ElliottIt is my favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup. Cue the jingle.
Al ElliottOkay, Lee, so what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottIt is Pride Month. Happy Pride to all of our LGBTQ+ listeners, friends, family, colleagues. Happy, happy Pride. Pride Month, it's such an important month. It's such a joyous month. It's such a colorful month, and it celebrates everything to do with self-identity and inclusivity and equality and love. Love is love, and it brings me so much joy. Of course, it is going to raise some awareness and education around the discrimination that still exists in society and quite rightly influence key policy changes both in government and within organizations. Um, and I'm just really enjoying at the moment my newsfeed brimming with so many wonderful colorful articles and resources. Um, that it's, it's just bringing me a lot of joy at the moment. Even was it Saturday Kitchen last weekend?
Al ElliottYeah, Saturday Kitchen in the UK. I'm sure you have something in America, Canada, Australia. Bangalore, you have the similar kind of thing. But yeah, it was, it was a, it was a big celebration. You know what's quite funny though is that in my Twitter feed, I haven't seen one single post about it.
Leanne ElliottTwitter quite straight, or maybe just people you follow.
Al ElliottWell, there's potentially that, but I think it's just, it does just remind us that this is so important.
Leanne ElliottIt really is important. So I mean, one article that, that I want to draw your attention to today was actually from a website called GBT Speaker. They specialize in, um, finding like keynote speakers from the community, um, and they talked about 5 different ways that you can celebrate Pride in your organization. If your question is, why would I want to? Um, perhaps you're new here. Um, I'll put some of the episodes in, in the links. We are huge allies of the LGBTQ+ community. We believe in inclusion. We believe in celebrating all— everything that it means to be human. And it is just simply the decent human thing to do to create organizations in which everyone feels sense of belonging and in which everyone can thrive. If you want to be commercial about it, it's also really good for business. Again, I will leave some links in the show notes because that's not why we're here today. I'm assuming that you do want to celebrate Pride because you want to show that your business is worthy of investment from employees and customers. So here are 5 ways. Al, would you like me to list them for you?
Al ElliottYes, please.
Leanne ElliottSo the first one they suggest is to organize a charity fundraiser, and it's just one of the best ways support the Pride initiative, um, and actually put your money where your mouth is and take some action. I think a lot of things what we're going to see over the next few weeks are brands changing their social media icons to include the rainbow flags, and that is a very positive public stance. But also, I think we need some action in there with some genuine impact. So organizing a charity fundraiser, or even, I know, taking a percentage of your profits in Pride Month and putting them towards one of these charities, organizations, it could be a really great way, um, to, to support them. Alternatively, if you don't have the financial means, you might have the time. Think about volunteering opportunities, raising awareness. We need to do an episode on volunteering because it is increasingly becoming a very interesting topic of research and one that is showing incredible benefits both for organizations and individual well-being. Um, so there you go, that's, that's the first one. Second, book a speaker. Hiring, you know, an external speaker to discuss their experiences as a member of the community, um, to, to educate your staff on some of the challenges that the community faces can be really positive. There are some phenomenal speakers out there. Of course, I'm going to recommend Danielle and Sophie Wood at Belonging Base. They were on the podcast quite recently talking about how, um, oh, about their own transgender love story and how they're now helping organizations create awesome workplace cultures where people belong. They are launching Belonging Bite-Sized tomorrow, the 5th of June, which is a series, a free series A video is going to be sharing lots of advice and experiences about creating these cultures that foster belonging, so do check that out. Tip number 3, similar theme, a workshop could be something nice to include in your June calendar. So this could be some training sessions, it could be how to improve inclusive language within your organisation. There's a whole, whole load of things that, that we can do, and again, I would recommend checking out Belonging Base for a starting point for those. And I guess on that same theme, something really simple you can do, and the 4th tip from this article, is to evaluate your equality, diversity policies within your organisation. Do they need updating? Are you representing the various races, genders, and sexualities that exist today? What are you doing to reduce bias within your organisation? We talked quite a lot about that over the last couple of episodes, didn't we, with our episode 100?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottAnd particularly Katherine Garrard. So that is another resource worth checking out. And finally, something really simple that I think we can all do. What if you just decorate your office a bit? You know, hang a rainbow flag, some banners. It is celebrating Pride, but also shows members of your team, members of your organisation, that you are an ally, that you stand for equality. And such, you know, visual representation can actually make a really, a really big difference, particularly if it's something you've never celebrated before. Something really simple, but showing that you are supporting the cause and supporting the celebration and the education that June is dedicated to. So there you go. That's what I thought I'd, I'd bring up, our little Pride Month awareness. I'm sure we'll talk about that a bit more as June goes on. But tell me, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottOne of the things that I have seen is a term called unbossing. And if you— we're from the north of England, so it's unbossing if you are from the south or from America. And unbossing is basically the removal of middle managers. It is gaining popularity for a number of reasons. First of all, from a marketing point of view, I kind of like it. I like the sound of the word. I think someone's done a really good job with that. But basically, it's all about removing this middle management. So the idea is that you can, first of all, you can cut costs. Well, that's an obvious one. But the second one, which is slightly less obvious, is that people who've been working remotely haven't necessarily had someone, you know, leaning over them at their side, who can help them with things. So they've become kind of a little bit more, I suppose, independent. And so the argument is, and I'm not saying this is what we agree with here, but the argument here is that remote working has meant there's less requirement for sort of an onsite direct manager. But the final thing is, and it's these pesky Gen Zs again, the final thing is that Gen Z just don't like them. The research has shown that Gen Z like autonomy. They like freedom. They're really able to create better So when they've got this autonomy, they don't have someone sort of standing over them telling them what they do and micromanaging. Now, this can obviously boost their creativity. It helps them with responsibility. But the most important thing, I think, and this is what Gen Z seem to stand for, it's all about empowerment for Gen Z. So they feel empowered to go and do their best work because they feel like they don't need anyone looking over them. The other consideration about this is that every decade or so, there's a new idea in management. Perhaps this is it. There's management walking around with Tom Peters in the '80s and then '90s. I can't remember what it was in the 2000s. There's always been a new idea. The kind of— this article suggests there's 3 main issues with it though. The first one is mentorship. If you don't have a manager, a good manager is usually a good mentor. And if you don't have a good mentor, then how are you— you're not going to learn as quickly. It's unlikely you'll learn as quickly. The second one is just general support.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAs Leanne's talked about before, when she was managing and she had an amazing boss, both of them— her boss supported her and then she supported the people underneath her. In fact, I think there was one manager beneath Leanne and then another one behind that. And the whole idea was that you're supporting. It's nice to know someone's got your back. But the biggest— I think the biggest problem with this is the interaction across the generations. If you don't have someone— and traditionally a manager is the next generation up. I know there's arguments against that, but traditionally your manager is the next generation or generation above you.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIf you don't have someone like that, then you're not interacting with anyone from a previous generation apart from perhaps parents or friends of parents. And you know, when you're 25, someone who's 40 seems ancient. So I think there is a potential issue that you've got this sort of echo chamber where you're just talking to other Gen Zs and therefore you believe something is true because everyone says it.
Leanne ElliottIt comes down to a similar theme we've seen with Gen Zs as they're getting a bit more vocal because these environments— and let's not forget, we, we give a lot of credit to Gen Z and And I think we just actually give credit to youth because it's the younger people with the fresh ideas that tend to want to disrupt and, and shake things up. But that— let's not take away from what are more than likely the Gen X and older millennials of our workforces that have created these environments where Gen Z feel that they can talk up, perhaps. Um, or indeed, maybe it's just the influence of social media. But I think what Gen Z is demanding is effective management. I don't think they're saying unbossing, I don't need a boss, I can do it on my own. I think they're saying if you're not going to be an effective manager, I'm better off without you. And actually, all the research shows that to be true. So I completely agree with your points. I think mentorship's a big issue. I think a sense of camaraderie and belonging is, is going to be lacking if we get rid of too many, uh, middle managers. I also think particularly, um, in terms of well-being, stress could become a problem. We know that, that leaders can be quite good, or line managers can be good filtering organizational noise and keeping things away from employees that are going to detract from the job they need to do. So I think there is definitely an element of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but I also think if time isn't up in the next 2 years around crappy management, and if time isn't up in terms of employees demanding better management, um, then I don't, I don't know what we're doing and I don't know why we're here. Um, and I mean us, I mean you and I, um, because it's It's, it's, it's so overdue. So yeah, if this is another trend to again give us some vocabulary and bring the topic into the, into the light, I'm, I'm cool with that. But the overall sentiment of, of kind of what my theory is, Al, what my fear always is with these types of things, is a business owner is going to hear and go, that's all I need to do, I just need to eliminate middle management, and that's what my people want, and that'll be better for them and their performance.
Al ElliottAnd they just want to jump in a second. I think, I think just by saying I'm going to get rid of all middle management It's like saying I've put a pride flag up in the window, therefore we're now inclusive. I think it's—
Leanne Elliottdo you know what, I think you're right, but I think it's more the cause and effect is lost in these things, right? It's not a case of not having managers will improve the performance and well-being or autonomy of your workforce. It's probably that removing bad managers will improve those things. Actually, then, then implementing great managers or training your people to be great managers, you'll probably see the same impact, if not more, uh, well, more than— absolutely more over Over a period of time. So yeah, I think that's the main thing is I just think sometimes the, the what is executed very quickly in entrepreneurial organizations without thinking too much about the why.
Al ElliottCool, cool. If you do want a masterclass in management, then go back to the episode with Dave Klein, um, who— it's just a great episode. He's a fabulous manager and he also has a course which, uh, you can join. I think there's a new cohort coming out. We're not getting paid to say that, although Dave, maybe send us a check. Anyway, the link will be in the show notes. So Lee, lastly, what have you—
Leanne Elliottwhat else have you been looking at this Yeah, I wanted to stay on the theme of, of joy, um, after my first, um, article on Pride. Um, and, and I saw an article in the— it's a British Psychological Society's Research Digest, which is— is that ironic, digesting and such a long title? I know, I'm not sure I really understand irony. But speaking of irony, kind of, can humor improve our mental health? What do you think?
Al ElliottYes, 100%. I think they always say laughter is the best medicine. I know if I'm feeling a bit bit glum, I'll go and watch some really dark humor by Jimmy Carr or someone like that. Um, I have a very good friend who, um, who sends me horrific stuff. I got— I hope that— I hope my phone never gets seized, but some horrific jokes and stuff through, but it always cheers me up. So yes, I think humor definitely helps with mental health.
Leanne ElliottThere is actually some recent, um, interesting research looking at the relationship between, um, a person enjoying dark humor and, um, psychopathy. Um, but that's not what I'm talking about today. Perhaps another time.
Al ElliottUm, that's something we can now talk about privately when we finish this.
Leanne ElliottBut no, there is, there is absolutely evidence that humor, um, can, can help us with all sorts of different things, from coping with stress to helping us with depression, boosting our mood, even attracting a mate. So this article, um, shared a few different pieces of research, and I thought I'd share some of the kind of headline findings with you. I'm not going to go the Such and such et al. 2019, because Al doesn't allow me to do that on the show. But I'll just share some headlines, and if you're interested in the actual articles, get in touch. I'll send them to you.
Al ElliottSo you're going to do a digest of the digest?
Leanne ElliottA digest of the digest.
Al ElliottYeah. Go ahead.
Leanne ElliottSo headline one: Research seems to suggest that depressed people seem to enjoy memes with depression-related themes more than non-depressed individuals.
Al ElliottI have seen a lot of those memes recently. Really? They make me feel quite. uncomfortable. Like, I understand we're normalizing mental health, but at the same time, it's got memes of like me, my life, and then, um, my depression or my anxiety behind it. And it's like, oh, I don't know. I don't know enough about it, but it makes me feel kind of uncomfortable. But anyway.
Leanne ElliottProbably because you're, you're a non-depressed individual. I think it's a sense again of that, that case of not being alone, isn't it? And representation of in the world of how I'm currently feeling, perhaps. Um, but yeah, it's interesting. Early work has also found that positive humour can help people cope with emotional stress, and that anxious people might have used funny memes more during the pandemic to cope. And a final headline, um, it was a US study of more than 1,600 science students found that 99% felt— 99% felt that when a class instructor used humour This improved their learning experience, and many reported that classroom humour also reduced their stress, improved their relationship with their instructor, and helped them to remember what had been taught.
Al ElliottWell, that— I've actually got a story about that. There was a, there was a teacher at my middle school, uh, called Mr. Clark, and every lesson was just really funny. And then our class did the best out of all of the classes in French in that that year. And I felt that during that year, I didn't sit down and do any work whatsoever. But we loved his lessons and we, we excelled. So yes, 100% behind that.
Leanne ElliottMemory is something else we need to talk about as well, because some really cool research on exactly on storytelling and memory and, and recall. Um, and, and with that humor and, and recall, it's also been found that apparently it's easier for people to remember facts about government policy and politics when it's conveyed in a humorous way. And similarly, if messages around quite serious things like climate change are encased in some kind of humorous message, it increases willingness to take part in activism and to recycle.
Al ElliottInteresting.
Leanne ElliottIt is quite interesting. So I'm not sure if Rishi Sunak or Keir Starmer is listening as the run-up to the UK summer election is ongoing. Maybe try and be a bit funnier, guys.
Al ElliottMaybe. I'm not sure they're listening. I think they're too busy ordering the movers because I think both of them are moving house. Anyway, so talking of story— storytelling, Lee, you've got a brand new segment for us which we're going to be doing over summer. What have you called it? Have you got a snappy title for it?
Leanne ElliottUm, Truth and Lies Summer Book Club.
Al ElliottOh God, you're not in charge of titles.
Leanne ElliottWhy did you ask me?
Al ElliottThat was awful.
Leanne ElliottWhat do you want to call it?
Al ElliottIf I could think of something clever, I'll say afterwards and I'll edit this back in. Anyway, so the truth and lies and books. Truth, lies, words and books. Words and work. Work and words. Well, we'll work on that.
Leanne ElliottI don't know, I was just thinking that the, the summer seems to be coming. Obviously it depends where you are in the world. We're in, we're in Bosnia in Central Europe and summer feels like it just started today. We just had an uptick in temperature, the sun is shining, the pool is ready to be filled. We are those dickheads. Um, in the UK, I don't know, maybe it's raining, maybe it's been nice. Of course, if you're in the Southern Hemisphere, then you're entering autumn and winter, and for that, I am— I'm, I'm very sorry. But right now in the Northern Hemisphere in Europe, it's sunny, and it makes me want to go outside and pour myself a glass of cool white wine and pick up a great book. So I thought, what if we shared some of the books that we're currently reading and maybe check in every week? Maybe we share a book a week. I'll show one, you show one. And then we will check in as we go, as we're working our way through it. Maybe some, some, some highlights, some key lessons. And then maybe listeners get in touch with us and recommend books that we should be reading, and we'll all just have a summer drinking wine and reading together. The wine is optional, of course. If you don't drink, that's fine.
Al ElliottSo, Leesh, should we kick off with your book?
Leanne ElliottYes, my first book is by Rahul Jandial. Jandial. How do we say it?
Al ElliottRahul? I don't know. Is it R-A-H-I-L?
Leanne ElliottSo, it's Raul, but yeah, J-A-N-D-I-A-L, Jandial, I'm going to go with.
Al ElliottYes, Jandial.
Leanne ElliottDo you ever find that, and again, probably a segue that you can cut out if you want, but because we're learning Bosnian at the minute, we're learning another language and we've learnt Spanish previously when we lived in Spain. Do you ever find pronunciations really hard? Because it's like, am I doing this Spanish? Am I doing this Bosnian? Like Bosnian?
Al ElliottThere's a beer, there's a Serbian beer called J-E-L-E-N, which means deer, like reindeer, like that. Um, and, um, and so in Bosnia, I think, and Croatia and Serbia, you call it Jelen.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThen in Spain you'd call it Helen.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd in English you call it Jelen.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd it's like, what? Anyway.
Leanne ElliottSo if you don't know where the person's name comes from, so I'm looking at this and I'm thinking like, if it was Spanish, it's, it's Raúl. If it's Bosnian, it's Rahul Jandial. And if it's just in English, I don't know, Rahul Jandial.
Al ElliottIf you're listening, Rahul, then drop us a quick email, tell us how to say your surname.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Anyway, anyway, Rahul writes— Rahul has written a book called This Is Why You Dream. Great book title, Rahul. I saw this in the airport actually when I was flying back home, um, and I had to buy it. Um, its tagline is what your sleeping brain reveals about your waking life. Psychologists listening, I think you'll be really intrigued by this because I think when anyone asks us about the psychology of dreams, we think Freud, we think bullshit. Um, this is really interesting because Raul is a neurosurgeon, so this is kind of meant to be based in kind of the scientific breakthroughs of neuroscience and brain scanning and, and perhaps what our dreams, and particularly our recurring dreams, um, could, could mean and could help us with. Um, apparently he explains how dreaming of an exam might help you score up to 20% higher and why taking a long nap could make you better at problem solving. I'm really intrigued. I haven't started reading it yet. This is how real the book club is. So if you're interested, I will leave a link, get your copy. We'll check in a couple of weeks and see what we all think, but I'm excited about this one.
Al ElliottLovely. The book club is so new that I didn't know that you were going to ask me for a book, so we'll maybe alternate. So I'll do my book next week and we'll check with you, and then you do your book the following week.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah. Because I haven't got one prepared.
Leanne ElliottOkay. So that sounds like a better structure anyway. So can you tell we've been on holiday, guys? I don't feel like we kind of got the flow of this episode, do you?
Al ElliottYeah, we took, we took about 10 days off for my birthday, which was lovely. We did all the pods before we left. Um, and that's the magic of scheduling. And, uh, and we went to Malta and it was absolutely lovely. And we didn't think about podcasting for about 8 days. And now we've come back This is the first one, and, um, I think the technical term is a car crash. But anyway, let us know, let us know in the comments. Right, we will be back in just a second with the world-famous Workplace Weekly Words. See, I told you.
Leanne ElliottWe'll be back.
Al ElliottWe'll be back. Give us one second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such It's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back to the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Lee, are you ready?
Leanne ElliottNot really.
Al ElliottOkay, well, so this person, question number 1, am I wrong for reporting this person as being autistic? Wait, this per— I could tell you would have wanted to jump in there. This person writes, I have a colleague who works with me in the phone repair shop. He does all— he shows all the signs of being on the spectrum. Monotone voice, difficulty translating or detecting emotion, completely unaware of how customers he's talking to are reacting to what he's saying. He himself has even stated that he thinks he is autistic. On its own, it doesn't sound like grounds to report him, but then things get a bit tricky. A young girl brought in a phone, and now the young girl, I'm guessing it was sort of teenage, maybe early 20s. So a young girl brought in their phone, and as the phone was transferring data, my coworker, without telling the woman, The mum went on the person's phone and added himself to her Snapchat. He then snapped her. I'm guessing that's like sending a message to her Snapchat with what he thought was a joke, which said a picture of him saying, be careful who you leave your phone with. Hmm. I laid into him and I'm saying that women have to deal with this a lot right now. So this kind of stuff is not cool. It would make someone feel very uncomfortable, possibly even scared. I told him he'd crossed several boundaries there.
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Al ElliottBut he didn't seem to get it. He couldn't see that he'd done something wrong. So I reported him to HR, but I feel awful about it. Was I in the right? Perhaps should I have been more supportive? Lee. It's a hell of a story, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottReally is. Is this person his manager?
Al ElliottNo, coworker.
Leanne ElliottCoworker. And he was there— I got a bit lost in the middle there. He was there when the, the kind of creepy thing with the Snapchat happened.
Al ElliottMum-daughter come in the shop. His coworker did a snap of him. I don't know whether you do a snap, you take a snap, um, sent it to her Snapchat after adding him on her phone while he had her phone in hand. They walked out, um, all a bit creepy. Coworker went, that's not cool, dude.
Leanne ElliottAnd then reported said person to HR.
Al ElliottAnd then reported said person to HR.
Leanne ElliottThe key bit of information that is missing here is how that report to HR was made. If it was made with all of the rich detail you've given us in terms of your, your feelings that this person might be neurodiverse and might benefit from extra support and training, then it's probably a very positive thing that, that you did. I would always probably, before you report— I mean, you said you laid into the colleague. I understand, fair. It just sounded a bit, it just sounded a bit creepy. And, you know, yes, good for you for being an ally for, for women's rights. Um, equally, that's probably as well followed up by a Do you feel that you need some extra support? You've mentioned you think you're neurodiverse. You've mentioned you think you have autism. Is this something that, um, you'd benefit from exploring further and perhaps seeking a diagnosis and then exploring coping mechanisms and also how as colleagues and managers we can support you better in this environment? Um, well, and then, you know, you'd want then that person to go to HR. So I don't think you should feel awful. I think if you haven't, um, if you haven't had that conversation with HR that actually it's coming from a place that this person requires more support, you might want to follow that up with a conversation. Um, but it's really tricky without, without knowing more. I think ultimately, you know, if this person feels that they are identifying with traits of, of autism, um, I mean, they're not a psychologist, I don't think. You're not a psychologist, I don't think. So you're gonna have to seek professional advice and, and support and assessment, um, to better understand that. Um, and that's the missing piece of information there, really. If this person is neurodiverse, um, then their behavior takes a very different lens than if they actually went through all the assessments and they're not neurodiverse. That then becomes a very different conversation, and, and then maybe quite rightly reporting that behavior to HR. Um, so I think it's this assessment diagnosis that we're, we're missing here in this scenario. So I think if there's a way to follow up with HR Um, with the individual and maybe go down that route, um, in terms of that assessment, then that was probably going to be a more positive approach and probably do a lot to alleviate your guilt.
Al ElliottGood answer. I think that from a business point of view, if I would want to know that this had gone on, uh, because even if there was no malice behind it, the perception is malice. And it's also— that's a great story for a tabloid to, uh, to ruin your business with. So yes, very, very good advice. Question number 2, Leanne. This person writes, I'm lost at work. I'm 25. I have a very well-paid job at a pretty good company. My boss is good and the work is relatively straightforward, but I dread going in into work in the morning. All of my friends seem to have followed their passion and have done stuff they love, but they earn about 25% of what I do. So my first fear is that if I did quit to follow my passion, then I'd take a huge pay cut, which I could just about afford, but would considerably restrict what I can do with my spare time. The second problem is that I genuinely don't know what my passion is. I spend most nights watching TV or scrolling the internet. I've never really had any major hobbies. Should I stick it out, or should I blow up my life, but perhaps start enjoying work again?
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottNo, she shouldn't quit.
Leanne ElliottYes. No, you shouldn't. You shouldn't quit right now. The reason is you don't— this requires exploration. You're 25. This isn't an uncommon problem. This isn't an uncommon problem when you're 35. So I think, first of all, let's normalize how you're feeling. This is a very common feeling for somebody to have as they are either embarking on their career, their early career stages, or indeed mid-career, and they're thinking, This isn't right. It's a very, very normal, very, very common experience. The reason I say no in terms of quitting your job is that until you understand what it is that you want from work that's going to bring you more fulfillment and joy, you're putting yourself at quite a large risk in terms of just practically and financially, but also in terms of your own well-being. You know, there is, there is going to be some of your some of your needs that are being filled by this, this, this job that you're currently in. You said, you know, you dread going, but it also sounds like the work's okay and your manager's all right. So no knee-jerk reactions. I don't think this requires coaching. This requires talking to a career coach like myself or all the hundreds of others out there. I would suggest though that you talk to one that either specializes in career transitions within your age group Um, so that, that kind of early stage career, or a coach is going to help you explore different aspects of yourself, different needs that you have, um, the psychology of you as a person, and looking at what other, um, careers or, or even other activities could bring you this joy. We often pin a lot on work, and it's probably because there's podcasts like this out there that say about how important work is. And of course it But there are many places to get your fulfillment and get your joy. Some of that is going to be from work. Some of that's going to be from your family and friends. Others, that can be your community. It could be that your creative outlet is to start a podcast or write a blog or write a novel and see where that goes. There's many different ways that you can look at fulfilling your needs and feeling more satisfied, um, without just saying, well, I'm going to quit my job and that will fix it. That won't fix it. Because until you figure out a way to fill the void, Taking anything away isn't, isn't really gonna, gonna help much. So yeah, my thought would be don't quit your job. Um, understand that this is a very common experience, workplace experience. Engage a coach to explore this and make some plans and come to some conclusions. Um, and finally, try not to— and bring this up with your coach as well, um, that is something you're struggling with— but try not to compare yourself to other people in your friendship group. We're very good at projecting. Yeah. What we think people will see as success, particularly in our early career, in our 20s. There's lots of masking that goes on. There's lots of projection that goes on. There's lots of, you know, suck it up, this will be okay, because I am only 20, and right now that money is important because I want to buy a house by the time I'm 35. Um, so I'd take your friends with a, with a pinch of salt, or indeed, um, as a source of inspiration. How did they find their passion? Ask them how they found the thing that they, they love and, and the pros and cons of that. Um, yeah, exploration and discussion is needed right now. No, no sudden decisions, I don't think.
Al Elliott100% agree. 25 does— I mean, 25 is like the new 45. I think people have— you see some people on TikTok who are standing next to expensive cars, jewelry, and going, yeah, I've made a million dollars and I'm 19, and it's like, shut up, man. Just cut it out.
Leanne ElliottYeah. I'm almost 40 and I'm looking at these kids going, how the— how? You're 20. Good for you. But it's an exception. It's not typical.
Al ElliottIt is. And so there's a song which, uh, by Baz Luhrmann, yes, the, um, the film director called Sunscreen, which came out, oh dear, before you were born. But search on Spotify for it. Um, and, uh, and one of the lines in there is, um, Some of the most interesting people I know, um, at 55 still don't know what they want to be when they grow up. I've totally paraphrased that and messed that up, but go and listen to the song. The whole point is you're 25. This, this next 10 years is about finding out what you want to do with the next 10 years. It's possibly going to be what you're going to do for the rest of your life. But don't make these big decisions and don't be fooled that your friends have followed their passion and they are very happy because they are only potentially 4 to 8 years into their career. If they love making pizzas and they've created and they built a pizza van and they're out doing that, ask them again in 10 years' time whether they still are as passionate about pizza when they have to do it 7 days a week and have done it for like 15 years. So the grass is always greener. Leanne always says the grass always seems greener. It's not necessarily. And just find something. If you don't know what your passion is, don't worry about it. You've got probably another— you're 25. You've probably got 75 more years of healthy life to find out what you're gonna love. So chill out, enjoy your life, try lots of different things.
Leanne ElliottUm, and I think as well, this idea of kind of having, um, rather than seeing one source of fulfillment, like, see it as lots of little different streams that are gonna trickling in and they're filling up your glass. Because the dangers as well is if, if one day one of those goes away, and work is a good example, if you get laid off, your glass is empty all of a sudden. So we want to spread out our risk and we want to spread out our sources of fulfillment. Lots of different ways to do that. 2 exercises that come to mind, and just Google them, uh, the Wheel of Life is quite a good way of kind of assessing different aspects of your life and how satisfied you are with them. And we just help you start to enter this, this way of thinking, this perception in terms of, of, um, of holistic, um, of a holistic life and all the different, different things that can, can contribute to your happiness and your fulfilment. And as always, Dr. Audrey Tang, Vitals. Again, Google it, buy her book, Leader's Guide to Resilience. It's not just for leaders, it's just for people who want to, who want to be pretty good functional humans, really. But yeah, or get in touch. I've got some resources I can send you as well.
Al ElliottLe, are you ready for question number 3? Yeah, it's, it's, it's relatively long, but I think there's a short answer to it. Okay, so here's the background. I've been in the same company for 14 years, moved up to a leadership position about 5 years ago. Now, recently, the senior leadership team have changed, and he goes on to say— sorry, I'm saying it's a he. Actually, they go on to say— I'm so sorry. They're going to say it was actually the CFO that moved into the CEO role. And since then, almost all the people above me have been let go. Additionally, one of the people on the same level as me is on a PIP, and I'm going to ask you what that is in a second. And even though I don't think they really did anything wrong. I'm genuinely scared that I am next. So are there any signs that a PIP is on its way to me? Can I, can I look out for it? Can managers use PIPs to get rid of people rather than redundancy? Is it even legal? I'm in the UK, by the way. So, Lee, can you start with a PIP and then just tell us that the 2 key questions is, do you think as an employee you can predict whether a PIP's coming, and can you use a PIP to get rid of someone?
Leanne ElliottA PIP is a performance improvement plan. Um, so it's the, it's the action plan that's developed as part of a performance management process to, with the intention, developed with the intention to help you improve, um, and stabilize your performance again to then a point of growth, not as a dark side way of managing you out of the business. But of course, it depends on the organization. There are going to be managers that will use performance improvement plans or PIPs, um, as an alternative means to redundancy because they don't want to pay a severance package. Um, so yeah, I mean, so I guess you don't necessarily know. It might be worth talking to that colleague who is currently on a performance improvement plan and seeing how their experience is of it. Regardless, I think what one of the challenging things that you're in is that the organization you're in has gone through a fundamental change in its culture, and that change has been driven by a very financially minded leader now being in the top spot, that CFO. They are much more transactional, they're much more bottom line focused. Um, so it's not a surprise all these cost-cutting initiatives have happened. Equally, it might have been necessary for the viability and financial health of the organization. Often we see CFOs promoted into a a CEO position when this tough stance is needed to ensure the ongoing future of the business? I think it's a case of you're in your threat state right now and you're looking around and everything seems uncertain, ambiguous, and a threat. That's natural. That's a normal psychological reaction to this ambiguity. The question I would ask is probably, what do you want? There's enough red flags. Your organisation has appointed a CFO. into the senior role, who has then subsequently made a lot of cost savings. That to me suggests that the organisation is in a bit of financial trouble, and therefore, there's always going to be a risk of redundancy. In terms of performance improvement plan, I don't know. It sounds like actually the people above you— did we know that, Al, that the people above them got rid of because of the PIP or otherwise?
Al ElliottNo, it just says that they were got rid of.
Leanne ElliottOkay. So, if we assume that it wasn't a PIP, Then maybe there were regular redundancies. It might give a bit of credibility to the performance improvement plan that your colleague is on. If all the people above you got rid of because of a PIP, then that tells you the answer.
Al ElliottPIP's on its way.
Leanne ElliottPIP's on its way. I think in this case, the organisation you're in is unstable and it's going through a significant change. If you don't have that relationship with your manager or indeed the new CEO to have that conversation about how safe your position is, and shame on them, by the way, they should have these conversations. PIPs should never be a surprise. Good managers will never throw a performance improvement plan on, on you. You'll know it's coming for months ahead because they'll be having those conversations to facilitate your, um, improve your performance before a performance improvement plan is necessary. But that's best practice, and it sounds like the organisation you're in isn't there. Um, so yeah, I think it's a case of really deciding what you want. There's plenty of red flags. I'm not sure you need to wait for another one. I think at this point I would be having those conversations, dusting off my, my CV, updating my LinkedIn, and starting to think about where, where I might want to move to if, um, if, yeah, if I, if I do have that. If you do get made redundant, if you do, um, have a PIP sprung on you, um, or indeed just decide that you want to be in a more stable environment. I think, I think that the time is volatile, so be prepared.
Al ElliottDoesn't sound like it's the— it's gonna be the place that you'll be in 20 years' time unless something's Significant changes. Uh, so like Leanne says, just be a little bit more proactive. And, um, that's all really, really good advice. And now we know what a pip is. Uh, for me being old, pips was when you used to run out of credit on the payphone. You just go pip pip pip pip pip pip, and you knew you'd only got 5 seconds left. There you go. That's, that's my— That's my memory. This is why I don't get involved in the questions. Okay, so that is, I think, it a wrap for today, Lee.
Leanne ElliottCool.
Al ElliottAnything else you want to say?
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottBrilliant. Well, join us on Thursday when we are— we've got the amazing Jonathan Bennett, and he's talking about The Lonely Leader, which is— and he goes through the 3 biggest challenges of leading a growing organization. This guy is just such a lovely guy. You're gonna really enjoy that. So join us on Thursday. If you're not subscribed, click subscribe, because it's gonna help other people find the pod. But also, it's gonna— it's every single subscribe, every time you Subscribe, a fairy gets his wings. There you go. See you next week. Bye-bye.
Leanne ElliottIf I took the poison out of the food, then the, the animal wouldn't die. But if I also didn't give them the food, they'd die. Do you know what I mean?
Al ElliottNo. What are you talking about, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottIt's kind of like saying— I don't know, what am I trying to say? Let me think of a better analogy.
Al ElliottI told him he'd— I told him he'd like— I told him he'd lost.