Episode 105 · 11 June 2024 · 39:02
Election Anxiety, Interpreting Dreams PLUS Are Your Friends Holding you Back? - This Week in Work, 11th June 2024
Election Anxiety, Interpreting Dreams PLUS Are Your Friends Holding you Back? - This Week in Work, 11th June 2024
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News Roundup: Moonlighting and the cost-of-living crisis
news roundup#news#moonlighting#cost-of-living
News Roundup: Gen Z career trends
news roundup#news#gen-z#career-trends
Summer Book Club: This Is Why You Dream
news roundup#book-club#dreams#summer
Workplace Surgery: Cryptic meeting invite from HR
workplace surgery#workplace#hr#meeting
Workplace Surgery: Leaving a micromanager
workplace surgery#workplace#micromanager#leaving
Workplace Surgery: Managing your circle
workplace surgery#workplace#management#advice
Show notes
Election Anxiety, Interpreting Dreams PLUS Are Your Friends Holding You Back? — This Week in Work, 11th June 2024
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) dive into the rise of moonlighting in the cost-of-living crisis, why Gen Z are gravitating toward founder roles and traditional careers, and how "election stress disorder" is impacting employees. Plus, they kick off their summer book club with This Is Why You Dream by Dr. Rahul Jandial, and tackle three listener questions in the Workplace Surgery.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Moonlighting and the cost-of-living crisis Leanne kicks things off with a conversation that's been gaining traction on LinkedIn: the growing necessity of side hustles and moonlighting. With stagnant real wages and CEO pay now running 400 times that of the typical worker, more employees are taking on second jobs just to make ends meet — and that has real implications for burnout, loyalty, and workplace culture. [Source → Pew Research · Economic Policy Institute]
2. Gen Z career trends: founders and traditional careers Al shares research showing Gen Z are increasingly taking on founder roles — and, perhaps surprisingly, gravitating toward traditional careers like education over tech. The conversation explores why "that's where the money is" and how Gen Z might be the first generation to truly demand both profit and purpose, not one or the other.
3. Election stress disorder is real Leanne calls out the elephant in the room: the UK is in election season, and it's taking a toll. Psychologist Steven Stosny coined the term "election stress disorder" to describe the spike in anxiety many employees feel during election periods. The discussion includes practical tips from Headspace on how to manage election-related stress at work. [Source → Headspace Article]
📚 Summer Book Club: This Is Why You Dream
Al and Leanne introduce the first pick of their summer book club: This Is Why You Dream: What Your Sleeping Brain Reveals About Your Waking Life by Dr. Rahul Jandial.
Leanne's already deep in — and it's "tickling her pickle," as she puts it. The book explores the critical role of dreaming in our lives, including emotional regulation, memory processing, creativity, and even foreseeing mental and physical ailments. Al also recommends his own favourite, The Score Takes Care of Itself by Bill Walsh — a book aimed at entrepreneurs but full of lessons on building an organisation you're proud of.
Links to both books are in the show notes. Got a recommendation? Get in touch.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Cryptic invite: "Would HR say nothing bad in a meeting invitation for a planned termination?" — Leanne's verdict: "Shame on you, HR rep. That's just common decency."
- Micromanagers: How do you explain leaving a job because of a micromanager in an interview? Leanne shares her most frequently asked career-coach question — and the answer is always positive spin.
- Your circle: Leanne hijacks the final question for Al: how do you manage friends who are holding you back? Al's answer involves some tough love, "acquaintance attrition," and the art of dilution.
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottWelcome, welcome. This is the Tuesday edition where we have different segments. We have the news roundup we'll have in a second. Then we have a middle segment, which I think we're talking about— I think for summer we're doing a summer book club, if I remembered that correctly. This is all well prepared, don't worry.
Leanne ElliottYes, welcome. If it is your first time listening, you are very welcome here. You know who we are. If you want to join the conversation, you can do. Come follow us on LinkedIn. We'll have little chats, little, little, little thoughts, little exchanges of information. I think that's what generally social media is about. But yeah, come join. We love to, we love to hear from our listeners and, and see what, what you think. It isn't all about us, you know.
Al ElliottWell, it is in this segment because it's your favourite time of the week, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottIt is my favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup. Cue the freaking jingle.
Al ElliottOkay, Lee, let's kick off with you. What have you got?
Leanne ElliottIsn't this the thing I've seen? It's something that was brought to my attention a few weeks ago. We were talking about moonlighting on the podcast, Al. You remember moonlighting? If you've not heard before, you haven't listened to the episode, basically having a side hustle, employees having a side hustle. Um, well, the conversation continued on LinkedIn with quite a few different experts and HR professionals commenting and basically agreeing that given the current challenges with the cost of living crisis mass redundancies, general instability, it's not really reasonable anymore for employees to expect— sorry, for employers to expect their employees to be exclusive to their business. One expert made a really, really interesting point. Rita Ernst, she's a psychologist. You'll remember her from episode 34, How to Identify and Eliminate Toxic Workplace Cultures. She suggested that the inaction of executives has sanctioned the need for side hustles and moonlighting. And quoted some findings from Pew Research Center. Of course, I asked her for the article. This is what I've learned. Pew Research found that real wages for most US workers have stagnated, maintaining approximately the same purchasing power as they did 4 decades ago, which basically means the typical worker can buy the same stuff today as they could have bought in 1978. Or in other words, workers are earning more dollars, but the value of those dollars hasn't increased at all since 1978. A little bit shocking. You might be thinking, yeah, but Leanne, that's just how inflation works. And I don't know how inflation works, but I do have more data for you, which I think means that this is not inflation. For average workers, the Pew Institute found that the same pattern had not applied to CEOs. So if we look at some different research, research from the Economic Policy Institute, they found in 2021 the average CEO of one of the top 350 firms in the US was paid an astounding $27.8 million a year. That represents an increase of 1,460% between 1978 and 2021. That's according to the latest data available. That's even growth beyond stock market, stock market growth. The research went on to look at the ratio of CEO to typical worker compensation, right? So compared to a typical worker, how much more is a CEO being paid? In 1965, the ratio of CEO to typical worker compensation was 20 to 1. So CEOs earned 20 times more than the average worker. Fair, they're probably doing 20, 20 times as much in terms of accountability. But in 1989, that was 59 to 1. By 2020, that was 366 to 1, and by 2021, it was 399 to 1. Again, I'll play devil's avocado for you. You might be thinking, yes, but that's just because there's a shortage of really good CEOs, or they're just great CEOs that are more productive, or something else. Well, again, not really. CEOs are getting higher pay over time because their power— CEOs are getting higher pay over time because They have the power to set pay, and because much of it, about 80% on average, is stock related. So this report goes on to recommend various different things that we can do to readjust this ratio. So in terms of CEOs perhaps having pay cuts, of course they should pay more tax, or even that corporation tax should be higher for companies that have an excessively high CEO-to-worker pay ratio. Quite interesting. I'm not sure I'm up for all of those, but one that I can get on board with, which is mentioned, was their recommendation to allow greater use of say on pay, which allows a firm's shareholders to vote on top executives' compensation. We're seeing Elon Musk go through this at the moment. What about though— crazy idea, Al— what if the workforce have a say on pay that's linked to satisfaction? Um, satisfaction with pay equity, their jobs, bonuses, benefits, work-life balance, burnout. Manager effectiveness. What if employees voted on the salary package of their C-suite? Thoughts?
Al ElliottHmm. Yes, I can see there being a big problem. Um, I also think that we're looking at data from the top 350 companies in the US rather than over the entire, which, let's be honest, that makes up 0.00001% of all of the companies in the world. So if you, if you're not careful, I think you end up Saying that all managers and all CEOs get paid far more than they— than the ratio is far more than actually just their employees. Whereas if you went to your typical— the Americans call it HVAC, we'd call it— we don't have air conditioning in the UK, but we'd call it sort of like a plumber or a plumbing firm. It might not— the disparity might not be quite as big. So I can, I can see that that on paper sounds horrific. Also, me as wanting to be a CEO and also quite liking money, I'd be like, cool, okay, well, that means I can make a lot of money as CEO. So I can see that as well. There's also the stock market thing we've talked about. You've said it's gone up quicker than the stock market, but the stock market has gone up pretty significantly, particularly the S&P since sort of like the '70s, '80s, consistently going up and up and up. So if 80% of their pay comes from the actual options they've got on the stock, I can kind of see, well, take that out the equation for a moment because that's not necessarily— it's kind of directly linked to the performance of the company, but it's not necessarily linked to their performance. How does that look?
Leanne ElliottAnd I, and I like that perspective, Al. And I too think there is an element of truth in that. If you're willing to, to have what is called a greedy job— it's been greedy job that's been termed— it takes a lot of time and sacrifice and compromise, then should CEOs be, be paid so much more? I think my, my issue is, is it's these same CEOs, it's these, these top 350 that are calling people back to the office, that are putting more restrictions on their time so side hustles are harder. It's those people that are basically role modeling that if you want to be successful and earn money to make a true difference in your life, to be financially independent, you have to be a boss. Therefore, that's the message I'm getting as an employee. So I will have a side hustle to become my own boss because that's the only way I'm ever gonna get 400 times more pay than I currently get right now.
Al ElliottInteresting. Well, What you've said there kind of dovetails perfectly into what I was, what I saw, which is very, very similar. So I saw this stat that said, um, it's from LinkedIn. It said the 2nd most common job title for Gen Zs is founder. And so Gen Z really are doing it for themselves. I mean, the stats show that Gen Z, like you've said before, Gen Z are much more likely to go out and find and do their own side hustle. Much as you've just pointed out there, there's reasons why they should be a founder. There's reasons why they should start their own gig.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, and I'm like, I'm applauding this. I'm thinking this is brilliant. So from my point of view, the fact that people, that particularly younger generation are going, well, screw this, I'll do my own thing. I'm like, absolutely brilliant. We want— I personally want more of that. Of course, you know, it's a bit more risky, but in today's day and age when you have all of the coding tools, you have all of the software tools, you have basically almost— you could, you could start a company that competes with Salesforce, um, tomorrow. Wait, not tomorrow, but probably in the next like 6 months. And all right, it's never gonna be as— well, it might not be as big as Salesforce, but it can compete with them. It's a level playing field. So it's different to the '70s where, you know, huge manufacturing companies, you couldn't then— Jeff couldn't then go off and start his own, his own manufacturing company without a huge amount of capital. So I do kind of like this. The other part of this research, which I thought was really interesting, is that LinkedIn is suggesting that Gen Zs are avoiding the tech industry now. And the top industry that Gen Zers are going into is education. Now, there is a, there's a lady called Charlotte Davies who talked— I'll link to the article— and she said that it could be about having more and more time off because, and she says, we know the top priorities professional— for professionals are compensation, work-life balance, and opportunities to develop. These factors will be crucial for attracting and retaining top talent across all industries, which of course education traditionally— and I know teachers are going to come for me now— but traditionally you get more time off in education than you would in, um, a job, particularly in the States where I think you get like 10 days mandatory leave off a year. So I can see that happening. The other thing we're starting to see is that, uh, Gen Zs are going into more of the traditional roles like, like we said before, HVAC, uh, plumbers, uh, carpenters, builders.
Leanne ElliottWhy? Because that's where the money is.
Al ElliottExactly, that's where the money is. Competition is relatively low, um, and it's just, it's a cash business. So you don't have to wait for someone to give you, um, a pay rise. You can just say, I'm going to give myself a pay rise because I can put my prices up. It's kind of strange because we've seen these, we've all said, we've said this before, a lot of people said this before, that the current generations tend to eschew what, am I using that word right? Tend to not want what their parents have got, but often what they like is very similar to what their grandparents have. Now, going through these sort of generations, boomers wanted a job for life, and most of them had it. Gen X, my generation, we wanted freedom but stability. Then when it comes to millennials, they tended to go towards more portfolio careers with projects and stuff. And Gen Z say they want a balanced life that has purpose, but a balanced life is freedom to do whatever you want.
Leanne ElliottI think that's the thing, isn't it? The younger generation, there's always a proportion of them that are really thinking, in fact, you know what, I just think they're This is a young— whichever youth generation is in play, they're choosing profit or purpose. That's typically where people lean, isn't it?
Al ElliottYep. And I also think that Gen Z are going to be the first generation who truly do profit and purpose, not one or the other.
Leanne ElliottAh, the Holy Grail. It is though, isn't it?
Al ElliottIt is, it is. What else you seen, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottWell, I think we probably need to call out the elephant in the room. The UK is in election season. Sigh. Yes, Rishi Sunak announced recently that the UK will have a general election on the 4th of July, and after 5 prime ministers in as many years, I think I can speak for the country when I say we're all really freaking excited about it.
Al ElliottWell, most of us. I'm not.
Leanne ElliottI think I was being sarcastic there, really.
Al ElliottOh, sorry.
Leanne ElliottThat's okay. But of course, um, you know, there's lots of countries in the world this year that may see a change in government. France has just called a general election. India has just concluded a very dramatic election with Prime Minister Modi in the process of establishing his first coalition government. And of course, we have the US general election in the autumn to look forward to. Trump or Biden will be president. I'm not sure anyone was in the mood for that 2020 throwback, but here we are. But I'm not here to talk politics. I want to talk about something called election anxiety. So I was chatting to our friends at Head space about some potential collabs coming up— spoiler— and we got onto the topic of the election and election anxiety. And I was saying that I didn't really remember coming across this term specifically in the past. I want to know a bit more about it. Um, so I did some digging, and it's been coined Election Stress Disorder by an American psychologist called Stephen Stosny. He came up with the term after he observed heightened stress and conflict amongst the couples he was counseling during the U.S. presidential elections. And I think anecdotally a lot of us will relate or admit to doom scrolling through the constant news updates, the debates, the political scandals, um, and all this pushes our anxiety through the roof. But what does the data say? Well, the American Psychological Association found that 52% of Americans found the elections a significant stressor And the British Association for Counseling and Psychotherapy found around 33% reported a negative effect on their well-being from the uncertainty surrounding Brexit. Headspace themselves have reported finding a 50% increase in the use of their app during election season. But what was really interesting is the psychologist behind this, Stephen Sternsey, also observed that the stress persisted once the election was over. So it continued. He called this post-election stress disorder or headline stress disorder, and again noting kind of this constant flow of news and social media kept people in this state of tension. So it seems as though election anxiety, election stress disorder may well be a new thing. And you might be thinking, well, as a business leader, as an HR professional, why should we really care? Well, regular listeners will know that stress isn't just bad for our people, it's bad for our business. So during election periods, employees might experience increases in stress and anxiety that can lead to decreased concentration, higher absenteeism, even strained relationships between colleagues. And that is going to mean for your business lower productivity, lower performance, dips in revenue, profitability, and maybe even unhappier customers. So what can you do about it? Well, there was a really good article from Headspace, and I will leave a link in the show notes. It suggests a few things, including encouraging employees to limit their media consumption, engage in rest and recovery activities— those 2 things are different— and of course, vote by participating in the election process. The APA believes— that's the American Psychological Association— they believe it can help us feel a sense of control and it can empower us, and that in turn can reduce stress. Interesting stuff. I feel a bit less anxious this time around. Al, I'm not sure about you. I think Brexit was my rock bottom.
Al ElliottYeah, well, regular listeners will know we're massive Europhiles here. Um, and, uh, yeah, Brexit was a big rock bottom. But then I've coined this term, um, the, the Venn diagram of give a shittery. Um, and in one side it's got stuff you can control, other side it's got stuff you care about. Excuse me. And then in the middle is the stuff that you both can control and do care about. Um, and I employ that when it comes to, to elections. So I go, well, the only thing I need to worry about is who am I voting for? I speak to my wife cuz she's far, far more knowledgeable than I am. She says, I'm voting for this. I'm gonna go, right, I will do the same thing. That's as far as it goes for me. And I'm like, well, you know, everything else is out of my control, so I might care about it, but it's outta my control. So I'm like, just let it go.
Leanne ElliottIf you wanna try and make a change, it really, and I know having that one vote doesn't feel like you can, but you know, maybe it will. And if you're unsure, there's loads of really good, particularly UK people. US, I'm not quite sure how it works over there, but in the UK, if you're unsure about who to vote for at the minute, um, usually the BBC will do some kind of like questionnaire that you can go through. Not always very helpful. I think my results last time came out basically like a third split for all 3 main parties, um, which then wasn't very helpful, which again is a problem with politics. But that— we're not here for that, Al. I'm gonna put— pin in that. I'll leave the links.
Al ElliottYes. Thank you very much. End of the news roundup. Leah, book segment. This is what we— what you came up with last week, I think, the Summer Book Club. Um, if you— we'll leave a link to the books in the, uh, in the show notes. Read along with us. And then wouldn't it be fun? Wouldn't that be fun to sit on a beach? Oh, that's a lot of fun. You are reading a book called This Is Why You Dream.
Leanne ElliottThis Is Why You Dream: What Your Sleeping Brain Reveals About Your Waking Life. by Raul Yandial.
Al ElliottHow you getting on? How's Raul tickling you?
Leanne ElliottRaul is tickling my pickle. I'm not gonna lie, early days, but what I really like already is it's already— I love a book that, that either introduces me to something new or shifts my opinion on something I thought I had a fairly strong opinion on. I— last time I, I thought about dreams from a psychology perspective was in my undergrad when we talked about Freud. Um, it's just bullshit really, isn't it? So I'm not really giving it much thought since then, but now I am. I've actually got a couple of little things out that I thought I'd share that I think will, will maybe— I think it will intrigue, it'll intrigue you. I think it might encourage you to, to dive into this one. Um, so basically Raoul is a neuroscientist, if you didn't listen last week. So it's kind of the science behind dreams and what we've learned about the brain and dreaming since these advances in technology allow brain scanning, etc. But he said— so this is like science stuff, this has like been shown— that the amount of energy certain regions of your brain burn while dreaming can exceed that which burn when we're awake, particularly in the emotional and visual centers of the brain. So whilst the waking brain might typically adjust metabolic activity up or down by 3 or 4%, so basically how much energy our brain is using, um, The dreaming brain can boost the limbic system by 15%. So 3 to 4% when we're awake, 15% when we're dreaming. That means that dreams can achieve an emotional intensity that is not biologically possible in our waking lives. In fundamental ways, you're never more alive than when you're dreaming. Um, so it goes in to kind of talk about how dreams can help us in terms of give us a heads up around health issues, how it's linked to mental health, addiction, that type of thing. And I read this last night. Um, so unsurprisingly, he says the imagery in the dreams of people who are depressed tends to be dark. Even people who are sad during their waking hours but not clinically depressed tend to have more negative emotions in their dreams. Likewise, people who report unpleasant moods when they are awake have more aggressive content, negative emotions, and misfortune in their dreams. I got bitten by the world's biggest mosquito over the weekend, and my shin is basically a golf ball. It's bigger than that. It's a, it's a, it's like a bowls ball. Bowls ball.
Al ElliottBowls.
Leanne ElliottBowls. It's as big as a bowl.
Al ElliottBalls for legs.
Leanne ElliottAnd it was really sore yesterday, and it was throbbing, and I was miserable, and I was, it was just really unhappy. And it's itchy. It's so itchy, but you don't want to itch it because it's going to scar. Um, I dreamt last night that I died in a plane crash, and Peanut, our dog, identified my body. Maybe it's a coincidence.
Al ElliottOkay. Um, well, first of all, well done, P, for, um, for— that's, that's not a skill I thought he had. He can't even, he can't even bring a stick back. So, uh, I'm pretty impressed by that. Uh, but secondly, maybe moving away from the slightly darker element you've brought into this segment here, which I appreciate.
Leanne ElliottYou're welcome.
Al ElliottLet me tell you about a much light-hearted, much more light-hearted book that, um, one of my favorites Uh, I'm rereading it for, I think, the 4th time. Um, it's called Anything You Want by Derek Sivers. It's the story of CD Baby. Um, I think maybe a lot of people under the age of 25 might not have a clue what CD Baby is, but back when CDs were a thing, before there was iTunes, before Amazon sent out sort of CDs, this was like the, the America's biggest sort of like independent store of CDs, mail order CDs. Um, it's kind of part autobiography, part life lessons. Um, I have to be honest, part slow-motion car crash, uh, because there's a bit in there where he talks about exactly what you said before, Leanne. Quite interesting. He gave the staff the, the option to vote on how they got paid, what, um, uh, what the stock options looked like. And I'm not gonna spoil the book, but it wasn't what he expected. But it is a really lovely, simple book. It's probably only about 150 pages. So many great stories and lessons.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottNow it is aimed at the entrepreneur, but the lessons in building an organization, um, which you are proud of and is timeless and impactful, and everything Leanne says are there. And it's definitely a lighthearted, lovely book. I read it in Thailand when we were on holiday, and I wanted to just— I wanted to go and get my laptop and start doing something because it just gave you that. So maybe that's not— maybe that's the reason why you shouldn't read it over summer. Uh, but if you are, if you have got a weekend off and you fancy just a couple of hours of reading through this book, it is a fabulous book, Anything You Want by Derek Sivers.
Leanne ElliottIt's a good book. I've read that.
Al ElliottHave you?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think you gave it to me actually after you read it.
Al ElliottWe will leave links to both books in the show notes. If you've got a recommendation, get in touch. We're going to take a very short break, but in a second we'll be back with the weekly world-famous Workly Workly Workplace Surgery. I'm going to change the name. We'll be back with Leanne answering your questions. See you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is interesting. It's such it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioral science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back, Leanne. This is— you say that News Roundup is your favourite time of the week. This is my favourite time of the week.
Leanne ElliottOh, really?
Al ElliottYeah, I really like it. If you've not heard it before, then essentially I take your questions or questions that we've found, just anonymous questions, but usually on the internet, and I put them to Leanne and Leanne answers them. So are you ready, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottHere's the first question. It's, it says, would HR say nothing bad in a meeting invitation for a planned termination? So this is the story. An HR rep scheduled a one-on-one meeting with me this Friday afternoon for Monday morning. Here's the content of the email. Hi, and obviously the name isn't there. I have news to share, nothing bad, but wanted to ask if you could kindly dial in Monday morning. Sorry for early morning, but wanted to give you notice you could plan. And that's from their HR rep. Would there be any circumstance in which a rep would say nothing bad if it was a planned termination or layoff? This person said, just to give a bit of context, despite receiving a good pay bump last month and a new sizable stock option— not everyone gets that— they've written, I am shook, which sounds weird me saying that, but I am shook. This has been absolutely crushing my weekend. Lee.
Leanne ElliottShame on you, HR rep. Shame on you. That's just common decency not to do that. That's not even about being like an expert in human resources or people or culture. You do not send anybody an email on a Friday afternoon for a meeting first thing Monday and not tell them exactly what that meeting is about. That's just, that's just poor behavior in any context from any person. Shame on you. I feel very sorry, sorry that you were put in this situation, um, lovely listener who wrote that question. Um, I mean, it sounds unlikely if you've had a recent pay bump, if you've got a good, a good benefit going on. Um, it, it sounds like it might be something, I don't know, probably a change, possibly something confidential, possibly something really frivolous. And this HR rep is just, just like, I don't know, sadistic in terms of how they use their power. Um, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I know that's, that's— nobody has stopped worrying by somebody saying don't worry. Um, yeah, you're just gonna have to grin and bear through until Monday really, aren't you? But shame on you, HR person. And if you're a business owner out there, never do that. Never Never leave anything hanging over a weekend, ever, ever, ever, ever. It's just cruel. It puts people in this threat state. It causes stress. It's going to impact their ability to work, their ability to be at home and try and rest and recover.
Al ElliottAnd as you've just pointed out, it's going to impact their dreams as well, as you just pointed out, because it'll be on their mind.
Leanne ElliottThey'll be dying in plane crashes over the weekend as well. Shame on you, HR reps.
Al ElliottNeed a trigger warning, I think, on this episode. Okay, great answer. So second one, are you worried?
Leanne ElliottWhat would you say?
Al ElliottWhat would I say? Um, I can see it from both sides. I can see, yes, that's a horrible, horrible email to get. Uh, secondly, from the HR rep, I can see them also thinking, oh, well, it's okay, I'll tell him it's nothing to worry about, because in their mind, they're like, it's nothing to worry about. And then they thought they were doing themselves a favor. Uh, or doing the other person a favor. So I can see it from both ends. It's just very clumsily done from the HR point of view. And you'd think that if it had come from an ops manager or more likely a finance function, perhaps you might have gone, okay, fair enough. But someone who, for whom, whom its job is, is to look after people and basically be an expert in how people behave, like you say, unforgivable. Are you ready for question number 2?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottI worked for a micromanager with a superiority complex. Even as a manager, I had to show her presentations before presenting them to customers. She reviewed emails and was always in everyone's business, so it wasn't just me. I couldn't do it anymore. Between her and a change in the corporate culture, I had the means to leave and save, so I left to safeguard what was left of my wellbeing. However, when it comes to interviews, people are going to ask about why I left the previous job. So how do I answer the question, why did you leave? in a graceful manner?
Leanne ElliottGood question, and one I get asked a lot, possibly my most frequently asked question as a career coach, actually. And my answer is always the same: project forward. Never spend too much time looking back. At the end of the day, it can feel like a nervous question because you don't want to say anything that's going to make you look bad or look like you're slagging off the previous company. That's going to be a red flag to somebody interviewing you. Um, so I understand it's, it's a tricky question, but actually the The only reason people are asking, really, the intention of that question really is to know how you might talk about their company once you've left it, on the risk that you would have had a bad experience, and how are you then going to talk about their organizational brand, their employer brand, to other businesses out there. They're going to know why you left unless it's, you know, if it's, if it's just that I handed in my notice That's all the reference the company is going to get. If it's for something that happened, an event or a termination or a disciplinary or something like that, that will probably get flagged in, in the reference potentially. So again, this depends very much on where you are in the world. There are some more protective privacy laws around that in the UK. Um, project forward, you know, why did, why did you leave that position? I felt ready for a new challenge. I'm really— which is why I was so excited to see the job that I'm interviewing for today advertised. I really admire how your company does this, how your company does that, how your company works with its customers, works with its people. I think I'd be a really great addition to that culture, um, and I'm excited to be here today and explore this opportunity more. Project forward, my friend.
Al ElliottI like that. And if you, if you do genuinely— if this person was going for a job and they genuinely did think that the corporate culture was, was better, then I, I would be tempted to say this. Tell me what you think, Lee. I'd be tempted to say, um, and also I really like the freedom that you seem to give here. I've spoken to— I've done a bit of research and it seems like you don't micromanage, which any decent interviewer is probably—
Leanne ElliottPositive spin. Always positive spin. Don't say you don't micromanage, you give people autonomy.
Al ElliottOh, okay.
Leanne ElliottAlways positive spin.
Al ElliottSee, every day is a school day. Very well answered, Le. I think that's a brilliant bit of advice. And, um, I'll be honest, going back to when I used to have a job, um, I think I went for an interview once and I did exactly that. And I said, um, I left because the manager was— I didn't say, use the word asshole, but it was basically along those lines. And I didn't get the job. It didn't go any further. So now I know why. That was like 30 years ago, and now I know why.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And the thing is, if they, if they push you on it, and it can be awkward when someone pushes you on it, because also you don't want to look like you're avoiding the question. Um, but I think you just, you know, you, you just do what you can to project it forward. And if you're really, really pushed, um, then I'd go with something like, I was there for, for 3 years, 2 years, I learned X, Y, and Zed, it was a great experience for this, it was time for me to move on.
Al ElliottLovely.
Leanne ElliottI've hijacked the final question, Al, and I have one for you.
Al ElliottI wondered why, why I hadn't got a note down here for the third one.
Leanne ElliottI thought it was one that is one that popped up and I thought was really interesting. I've heard you talk about it before, and I think will be useful for business leaders, for employees, for just anyone listening, really. So the person asks this: how do you surround yourself with people that empower you and don't suck your energy? I'm a big fan of Alex Hormozi, who talks a lot about surrounding yourself only with people who benefit you. I truly 100% agree with that. That said, I find it hard to manage my circle of friends and family and exclude people that pull me down. Most of the people that I'm surrounded with do not have big goals for their life. They do not have— they are not entrepreneurs. They are not all the kind of person that I am or that I want to be. How do you guys deal with this?
Al ElliottIt's a tough one. Um, it's tough because it's difficult. It's tough because this is some tough love. Um, you have to— you have to exclude them. That will mean if you want to grow, if you— if you want to be an entrepreneur, And we're not talking about someone who's got, you know, a little side hustle or someone who perhaps goes and starts a small business and then they're self-employed. Talking about if you want to build something, then you have to surround yourself with people who think the same way as you do and also don't suck your energy. And that will mean you leave some people behind. There is no way to sugarcoat that. I have friends who, or previous friends who I just don't spend any time with, um, because they just Like you say, they're they're energy suck. They you say, "I've got this idea." They go, "Oh yeah, well that's not going to work because someone's done that before," and you know all that kind of stuff. So unfortunately, the sad the sad and blunt truth is there is no way to do it without getting rid of them. Not necessarily cutting them off. Like if your family like you can't get around not being, but just don't talk to your family about you about what you want to do. Just go if you go to family barbecue, you go to family party, and they're like, "What you up to?" Oh, you know, just working a couple of projects. What about you? What's new in your life? Bear in mind that everybody loves talking about themselves. So Leanne said before, deflect. Deflect back onto your friends. When they ask you, how's it going with this? Go, yeah, not bad, not bad. Yeah, you know, there's a few challenges. There always are. What about you? Didn't you get a new dog? By the way, hello to Jeff, Jeffrey, my brother's new dog.
Leanne ElliottHey!
Al ElliottBut didn't you get a new dog? How's it going? And that, and it will effortlessly— it sounds, it sounds contrived. It's not gonna be. They will go, oh brilliant, I've got a chance to talk about myself. Because let's be honest, most people when they're talking in a conversation, they're just thinking about what they're going to say next. So the blunt truth is you have to get rid of them. The other thing you need to do is make sure you do surround yourself with people who are positive. Now, if you're in a situation where you can't necessarily do that, I found Twitter or X to be quite good for that. I know some people hate it, but I've muted, blocked, created lists, all that kind of stuff over the last year or so. So now whenever I go on Twitter, I just see really uplifting posts from people who are doing something that I want to do, or perhaps have got skills that I want. So I almost have this virtual network of people because we don't have any friends here in Bosnia yet. We're only quite new in the country. We're only quite new in the country, but it is kind of difficult to find someone who is interested in podcasting, building a business, workplace culture, who speaks great English, and is also an under the age of, age of 60. So it is kind of tough. But so we don't have that many people physically, so I tend to do it. And also the other thing is just, I, I, what I did when I was first building my first, uh, second company, the first one went bust, made me bankrupt. Second one did work quite well, was I used to go to founders and I'd say to them, could I take you for a coffee in the morning? There's one founder we hounded. It was, it was from a company called Late Night Rooms or Late LateRooms.com, which I think you've got Priceline in the US. It's a similar kind of idea. It might even be— that might be the parent company. And we ended up— I sent him so many emails, they end up saying, look, I'll meet you at the station for 20 minutes when I get off the train before I get into the office. And we met him up and it was brilliant because I just felt— I surfed for weeks on that conversation because I spoke to someone who built a 300-person conversation, a 300-person company, and I just felt brilliant. So I think I could have summed all that up by saying ditch them.
Leanne ElliottI don't think it's— I think, no, you didn't say ditch them. I think it's dilute them.
Al ElliottDilute them.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think, you know, friends— and it— and again, I'm gonna make an assumption that you're maybe on the younger side, because I think as you get older, you kind of experience friends coming and going in and out of your life just naturally, um, because nothing happens. It's just the way it is. You move or they move.
Al ElliottAcquaintance attrition.
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly. That just kind of happens. Family, yeah, of course, you know. But even then, you can, you can limit your contact if it is a toxic relationship, or indeed cut it off if you really think that's necessary. I would dilute exactly what Al said. And it's not always, as he said, finding things, um, finding people exactly within your proximity, your location. Look at other ways. And online, there's so many good things— conferences, talks, events. Events, go to them, find local groups, local entrepreneur groups, business groups, whatever it is that you're, you're trying to get into. One thing that I did, and I felt like this back in, I want to say, the beginning of 2023, and I made it a thing that anyone who liked or commented on a post about the podcast or about people and culture, about great leadership, everyone who liked or commented, I would connect with, send them a message and say thank you so much for your It's such an important conversation. I'd love to have a 30-minute virtual coffee and chat with you just to learn more about your work. And I probably spoke to about 25 people in 2 weeks, which was exhausting as an introvert, but I met some really cool people that have subsequently been on the show, that we've collaborated with, that I still check in with every now and again and just kind of see how things are. Um, and that was transformative for me from an energy perspective. Because it can feel that you're the only one, you're kind of banging your head against a brick wall sometimes within this type of work. So, it's good to just know there are other people out there trying to drive the same change that you are. So, I think that's what I'd say is don't— maybe you're focused on kind of cutting people out and maybe just need to just enrich your pool of people a little bit.
Al ElliottExactly. You can have silos of people you spend time with and you can have friends who you can just spend time with and talk about friend stuff. You've got family, speak about family stuff, and then you've got work. And the problem is that if you— I think a lot of people think that work, you know, that's your first question, how's work? And so just rather than going into it going, oh, it's really good, I've got this really great idea, I'm building it, don't do that. Just go, yeah, it's going really well, how about you? That's what you need to do. So, Lee, I think that's the end of probably a bit of a bumper episode on this one, if I'm honest. Um, we Have got an amazing episode coming up on Thursday for you. We— I'm not going to go into it. Basically, it deals with all of the things we talked about here today, particularly the wage parity. It is— if you've got CEOs earning— what was the number? Was it 699?
Leanne Elliott400 times more than the typical worker.
Al ElliottThen you're going to meet on Thursday someone who earns exactly the same as everyone else, and you can work wherever you want, and you can work as many days as you want. And the salary, it's decent 6 figures. So join us for Thursday. It's going to be a great episode and with the, with an amazing guy who's got a great story. So anything else to add before we go, Lee?
Leanne ElliottNo, just the usual things. If you have enjoyed the show, if you do enjoy the show in general, the best way you can support us is by subscribing, by downloading, by reviewing the show, by following us on LinkedIn, other socials. Joining the conversation. Um, we love to hear from people. We love to have those chit-chats going. Um, so yeah, so get in touch, subscribe, all that business. If you have any complaint, send it privately. If you have any praise, please do it publicly.
Al ElliottLook forward to your letters. We'll see you next week.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye.
Al ElliottHave the world-famous weekly workplace search— I almost got it that time.
Leanne ElliottAlmost.
Al ElliottAlmost.
Leanne ElliottOh, I meant to bring my book in. I need to go get my book.
Al ElliottNo, you don't.
Leanne ElliottI do.
Al ElliottLee.
Leanne ElliottI'm reading bits from it.
Al ElliottWhere is it?
Leanne ElliottOn the table.