Episode 144 · 12 November 2024 · 44:45
Why Trump won, Nike's 'new' CEO and engaging seasonal staff. PLUS! Wistia CEO Chris Savage's Hot Take on B2B influencers
Why Trump won, Nike's 'new' CEO and engaging seasonal staff. PLUS! Wistia CEO Chris Savage's Hot Take on B2B influencers
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Intro and Weekly News Roundup Kickoff
news roundup#podcast#news#weekly-roundup
Nike's New CEO: Promoting from Within vs. Fresh Blood
news roundup#nike#ceo#leadership#hiring
Encore's Overtime Savings Program for Seasonal Staff
news roundup#overtime#seasonal-staff#retail#hr
Hot Take: Chris Savage on B2B Influencers
hot take#b2b#influencers#marketing
Workplace Surgery: Company Culture Post-Acquisition
workplace surgery#company-culture#acquisition#merger#change-management
Workplace Surgery: Green Initiative Generational Divide
workplace surgery#sustainability#green-initiatives#generational-differences
Workplace Surgery: The Jekyll-and-Hyde Boss
workplace surgery#boss#management#workplace-relationships
Show notes
Trump's Win, Nike's Comeback CEO & Seasonal Staff Retention — PLUS! Wistia's Chris Savage on B2B Influencers
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Business Psychologist) break down the psychology behind Trump's 2024 victory, whether Nike's "company lifer" CEO is the right call, and how Encore boosted seasonal staff retention by 14% with an overtime savings program. Plus, Wistia co-founder Chris Savage shares his hot take on why B2B influencers are here to stay — and in Workplace Surgery, they tackle post-acquisition culture shock, green initiative generational divides, and a Jekyll-and-Hyde boss.
📰 News Roundup
1. Why Trump won — the psychology of a comeback Leanne and Al unpack the psychological responses to Donald Trump's 2024 election victory, from the reactions on both sides of the political spectrum to the role of nostalgia in voting behaviour. They revisit their earlier prediction (episode 70-ish) that this would be a convincing victory — and reflect on what nostalgia really does to our decision-making.
2. Nike's "company lifer" CEO Elliott Hill's return to Nike as CEO after a 32-year career has sparked the eternal question: promote from within or bring in fresh eyes from outside? Al and Leanne debate the nature-nurture of leadership, why "the year of the comeback" might be 2024's biggest trend, and what PwC lifer Marco's approach can teach us about institutional knowledge.
3. Encore's overtime savings program Fortune reported on Encore's innovative approach to seasonal workers — an overtime savings program that's boosted retention by 14%. Timely given the time of year, Al and Leanne break down why this works and what it says about understanding what your workforce actually values.
🔥 Hot Take: Chris Savage on B2B Influencers
Chris Savage, co-founder and CEO of Wistia, joins the show with a bold claim: B2B influencers are here now. He explains why content creators in the B2B space are transforming marketing strategies, how founders like Dave Gerhart and Scott Clary are leading the charge, and why businesses should pay attention.
Key points from Chris's Hot Take:
- The rise of B2B influencers and how they're reshaping marketing strategies
- How content creators in the B2B space can have a meaningful impact on businesses
- The future of founder branding in the B2B sector
More from Chris Savage:
- Wistia: wistia.com
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/csavage
- Podcast, Talking Too Loud: available wherever you get your podcasts
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
1. Culture post-acquisition "My company was recently acquired by a larger tech firm. Initially, the promises were all about keeping our culture. Now everything's changing. What do I do?" → Leanne's advice: fight to what end? Sometimes the pragmatic move is accepting the chapter is ending.
2. The green initiative generational divide "We're transitioning to become fully eco-friendly, but younger employees are pushing for faster change while older staff resist. How do we bridge the gap?" → The answer isn't pleasing everyone — it's understanding why the change makes their jobs harder.
3. The Jekyll-and-Hyde boss "I'm struggling to understand my boss's personality — harsh and demanding at work, kind and patient in personal settings. How do I navigate this?" → We all adjust our identity in different contexts, but that doesn't mean you have to absorb the fallout. Pick your battles.
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of people, know, work, and create amazing workplace cultures. I'm not— I'm sorry.
Al ElliottLeanne's not herself today. She went back to the UK for the Grow event on HubSpot, wasn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah, you would have seen last week.
Al ElliottAnd then she came back full of something. You've been, you've been, you've been in bed for about 5 days, poor love.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's the first day I've actually managed to put any makeup on, so, um, So I'm not gonna— I'm not sure it's gonna be a flawless, seamless episode, Al, but I'm here.
Al ElliottYes, maybe this is— maybe this is one for more of the audio than the video. Just a really quick reminder, if you like guest interviews and hearing stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplaces, then you need to come back on Thursday because they are right up your street. And if you'd like to keep up to date with the latest news around the workplace, then you are in the right place right now because every Tuesday we bring you our weekly news roundup and of course our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne.
Leanne ElliottGood luck this week. We are also Welcome back. With our Hot Takes, where we uncover the truth and lies of work with the help of business owners, thought leaders, and influencers. We are asking them for their boldest insights, whether it's a controversial prediction or an unpopular opinion. Nothing is off limits. We want to know what is really happening in the world of work, what is broken, and what in Scoobies is coming next. Today we bring you a hot take from the amazing Chris Savage, the co-founder of Wistia. He is a pretty big deal and also the host of Talking Too Loud, the brilliant podcast where Chris and co-host Sylvie talk to entrepreneurs about building human-centric brands. You can see why he's right up our street.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. But first, it's our favorite time. Well, it's your favorite time of the week, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottIt is.
Al ElliottIt's time you went back to bed. No, it's not. It's time for the weekly news roundup.
Leanne ElliottCue the jingle.
Al ElliottOkay, Lee, what have you seen?
Leanne ElliottWell, unless you have been, um, blissfully living, um, off-grid for the past week, then you would have seen that Donald Trump won the 2024 US presidential election, securing 286 electoral votes to Kamala Harris's 226, surpassing the 270 required for victory. The world has been reacting, and there are a lot of Democratic supporters who are asking why. Why did this happen? Um, this isn't political. I just thought I'd share some explanations on the outcome, um, and reactions from prominent psychologists to hopefully help Those who maybe are a bit disappointed with the result process the outcome. I'm going first to John Amici. We know John, organizational psychologist, former NBA player, does not, does not hold back when he is giving his opinion, and he didn't this week. This is just one of a few posts he's put out since the result came out. He said, People don't care that a rich man is a predator, a liar, a bigot, and a dolt. Some rationalize their choice on the grounds of economy or family values, but really, he hates the same people they do, and that's the draw. Trump voters will celebrate, but they'll learn he hates you too. Sadly, he's demonstrated he doesn't have a conscience, so the guardrails that protect those without power have been transferred to a man with unlimited power, no sense of duty, and probably little ability or willingness to restrain that power to avoid harming those he serves. This result was inevitable because the social norm of decency has been eviscerated.
Al ElliottEviscerated, that's a hell of a word.
Leanne ElliottYeah, did not hold back. That wasn't even all of it either. That was just an extract of probably about half of it. But yeah, clearly not, um, not a fan of Donald Trump. Um, you'll remember that actually, if you go back to our episode with John Michie, John called this back in, I want to say, February, March.
Al ElliottYeah, so it'll be episode 70-ish. Yeah, 80-ish.
Leanne ElliottCalled that it'd be an absolute landslide. Um, and it wasn't a landslide, but it was a fairly convincing majority, wasn't it? Um, other psychologists have reacted as well. Ryan Martin, also known as the Anger Professor, um, he posted that, uh, one of the first things about America right now is how we accept male anger and hostility in politics as a strength and then silence more composed voices. We've normalized hostility and cruelty. The only psychologist I could actually find, a prominent psychologist I could find, that seemed to support Donald Trump— may come as no surprise— was Jordan Peterson. All right. Um, he tried to argue that past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, suggesting that Trump's previous, previous presidency sets a positive precedent— it's a lot of Ps there— in terms of a strong economy and no new wars. Um, I'll be I'm not sure Jordan was psychologizing very well there. Yes, past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior, but there's a bit more nuance than that when it comes to actual performance in work. Go and check out Adam Grant's Hidden Potential if you want to learn more about that. But my beef with Jordan was actually that he left out a lot of data when it comes to Trump's track record. He does have a history of falsifying 30,000 documents or misleading or giving misleading statements during his time in office. In office. He does have a questionable commitment to democratic principles, and his efforts to overturn the 2020 election results, which also played a part in the January 6th Capitol riots, did leave little to be desired. And then let's not also forget the legal troubles. Trump is a convicted felon on 34 counts of falsifying business records and is awaiting sentencing actually later this month. So I think that actually probably says more about JP as a psychologist than it does necessarily about Donald Trump as a president. If you're talking about psychological assessment at work, then he's not talking about it very well. I think what JP actually means here is nostalgia. And I think this is maybe a reason why a lot of people have voted, voted for Trump in the election this year. And I think also why a lot of people voted for Labour in the UK this year. Nostalgia, it is that kind of psychological sense of self-soothing when people look back, and they often gloss over the rough edges. Memory is highly selective, and we tend to remember the broad positive strokes and forget the negative details. So yes, Trump is a controversial figure with a deeply complicated history, but this nostalgic appeal does have power, especially for people who feel disconnected or adrift in a changing world, particularly perhaps a more liberal world.
Al ElliottYeah, I think a couple of things. First of all, nostalgia. The problem with nostalgia is it's not as good as it used to be. Um, yeah, and also the campaign that both of them ran was similar to the Clinton campaign. If you're interested in the story or the branding behind campaigns like that, go back to Dr. JJ Peterson. Um, no, that's not right. Is it Dr. JJ Peterson?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah. Very different from Dr. Jordan Peterson.
Al ElliottSorry. Sorry, JJ. Dr. JJ Peterson, um, from StoryBrand. And he went into some really, really interesting, um, the mechanics of the campaign, of the 2016 campaign. And he explained, he gave one little hack that would've possibly meant that, uh, Clinton would've won.
Leanne ElliottYes, there you go. I'm sure Trump will feature again in our news roundup over the next 4 years. And we'll see. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottWell, this was an article on LinkedIn, but it was originally reported in the FT. The Nike— Nike? Nike? How do you say it? Nike or Nike?
Leanne ElliottI think I say Nike, but I'm not sure if that's right.
Al ElliottNo, well, let's just assume it's Nike. Nike's new CEO is a guy called Elliott Hill. Good name, by the way, Elliott. And he spent an incredible 32 years at the company, starting as an intern back in 1988. He retired in 2020, and now he's having— he's coming back, like, like, like our first story. He's coming back as the big boss.
Leanne ElliottThe year of the comeback, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah, the big boss in 2024. Which does beg the question, is it right to promote from within your organization, or should you regularly be bringing in fresh blood from the outside when you need new leaders? Some experts say that company lifers like Elliott Hill are too stuck in their ways and might be running an old boys club. Keeping the same faces in power rather than bringing in new talent and fresh ideas. But Marco Amitrano— sorry, Marco, if I've got that wrong, he's a lifelong PwCer— says this: I believe institutional knowledge is a key asset for leaders, as it allows us to understand the organisation inside and out and make better and more representative decisions. I also know the value of people's ideas at every level of the firm, which is why I've put in place a shadow leadership team to free feed— sorry, feed the views of our people into the critical decisions that we make as a management board. So Marco is for it as well. Let's have a look and see who's right, because the facts behind it are Elliot Hill started as a Nike intern in 1988, as I said, and climbed all the way to the top job in 2024. That's over 3 decades at one company. Only 13% of company leaders in big businesses— this is the S&P 500— come from outside the company, according to the data from Al Altrata, Altrata, which is cited in the Financial Times. And a surprising 20% of CEOs have stuck with their companies for more than 21 years. Other famous company lifers include Mary Barra at General Motors and Doug McMillon at Walmart, both started at the bottom and worked their way up. There are pros of lifers that they know the company inside out. They've clearly got strong relationships with people around them, and they really get what makes these business tick. However, the downsides might be long-serving leaders might have what's called blurred— no, tunnel vision. See, that was— yeah, I couldn't read that from my own notes. Tunnel vision. They could be stuck in the old ways of thinking and miss out on new ideas. Looking at leaders who've been at one company their entire career is like looking at a long marriage. Could be a sign of true love and deep understanding, or it might just mean they're too scared to try something new. Lee, We've not been married that long, so it doesn't apply to us. Leanne, what are your thoughts? Not on the marriage bit, but on the lifers.
Leanne ElliottIt's, it's, it's, it's, you know what, it's like the nature-nurture debate, isn't it? It's inevitably, it's a little bit of both. Um, I think, yes, we call it cognitive entrenchment. Um, when you're, you're just so used to thinking a particular way and being in a certain environment that you, you can, um, be a bit blind to fresh ideas and different ways of working, which then can limit, um, innovation. Of course, understanding organisational life and the culture and the climate and everything it's been through and its legacy and what it stands for. Um, is going to be really important in leadership as well. Um, so I think it's going to require a little bit of, a little bit of both. But I think it's one of those things that we tend to fixate on probably the wrong thing in terms of leadership effectiveness. I'm not necessarily sure that, um, again, experience, um, is always the, the best predictor of future performance. Um, because what we're talking about here is one person that could have many years of experience, as you said, in the same company, so probably repeated a lot of those years of experience. So if you had a CEO that's worked in, um, you know, 4 or 5 different organizations, had that pattern of growth or turnaround and transformation across different industries or companies or sizes, um, then I'd much more likely to trust their ability, um, to deliver than somebody who's done the same thing repeatedly in the same environment. Um, it's one factor of many that we should be using when we assess leadership effectiveness and performance, but it's an easy one to grab onto, isn't it? So I can see why People are talking about it. Yeah.
Al ElliottAnd I think Marco, Marco's idea at PwC, that's the guy who's been a lifer at PwC. His idea of creating this shadow sort of management board is a very smart one where they potentially, he doesn't actually go into what it is, but the, the inference or the inference I got, or the implication I got was that essentially it's full of people who aren't lifers so that you also get sort of like a secondary way of looking at things. Lee, apart from a lot of ibuprofen and And cold remedy, what else have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottUm, I came across an article in Fortune and I thought it's kind of timely given the time of year it is. Dare I use the C word? Not that one, the other one— Christmas. Um, it is a-coming. Um, so I thought this was maybe quite timely and topical. Um, so yeah, an article in Fortune about an events company that is trying a novel approach to help with retention, especially among its seasonal staff. The company is called Encore and they handle corporate conferences, and they've set up what they're calling an overtime savings program aimed at giving their workers a bit more financial stability during the inevitable off-season dip. So this is how it works. Encore has teamed up with HR tech firm UKG to create a digital wallet that's connected to each employee's bank account. It lets staff access wages they've already earned before the traditional payday and allows them to stash any overtime pay into a savings fund for later. So you might wonder if this setup actually makes a difference. Well, yeah, it seems that it does. Out of 12,000 people working for Encore, about 2,500 employees are currently using this wallet, and for that group, retention is up by 14% since the program launched, according to Encore's CHRO— that's Chief HR officer Charlie Young, the program responds directly to requests from employees for a way to smooth out their income during quiet months, especially in the summer. Seasonal work often leaves people with no choice but to job hop, but Encore is betting that this added financial flexibility could keep people on board for longer. To sweeten the deal, they're offering a $100 bonus to anyone who puts at least $500 into the wallet. And considering the average age at Encore is around 33 or 34, uh, the mobile-friendly aspect is key as well, says Charlie. Many employees are out on the road without regular access to being near a computer, so being able to manage savings on a phone is essential. I thought it was quite interesting and quite an innovative way of doing things actually, and, um, supporting seasonal workers and shift workers as well. Um, financial well-being benefits like these are gaining traction, especially, um, given the economic stability we've had in the last couple of years and the rise of— rise in inflation. In fact, recent psychological studies have shown that financial stability directly influences job satisfaction, engagement, and mental health. Employees who feel they have a secure financial footing report lower stress and are more likely to stay with a company long term. The overtime savings program just seems to tap into that. Meeting a real psychological need for stability and control over one's finances, factors that could make all the difference for Encore's retention rates in the long run. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottSounds like a really good idea. I think it makes perfect sense. I mean, there's, um, there's something in the UK that's been around. It's kind of like a bit of a joke, but it's like a Christmas hamper club or something where you pay each month towards it and you pay and it gives you sort of a load of cash payouts or voucher payouts at the end of Christmas. And that's been really popular for very good reason. Um, the other— what I really like is the app side of it. Uh, we have now— we moved maybe about 5 years ago to a company called Starling, which is a challenger bank. I feel quite bad because we've actually had, um, we've actually had the chief people officer of their competitor on, and we don't use them, but shh. But, and that just makes it so much easier on the go. You can move money around, you can set up spaces to say in which you can automatically round up purchases to go into a space. So that's for the actual money. So it makes Perfect sense to me. I really like it. I think that's really innovative.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I thought it was a cool story as well. Um, I'll leave a link to that and everything else we've talked about in the show notes.
Al ElliottOkay, after this very short break, we'll be back with our hot takes and of course our world-famous weekly workplace surgery. Do not go anywhere.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— yeah, yeah, and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast We actually have a lot in common.
Al ElliottWe both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about How to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back. I'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back to our Hot Takes segment, where we uncover the truth and lies of work with the help of thought leaders, business owners, and influencers. We are asking them for their boldest insights, whether it's a controversial prediction or an unpopular opinion. Nothing is off limits. What's really happening in the world of work? What is broken? And what on earth is coming next? This week's hot take comes from the co-founder of Wistia, the video marketing platform for business, and the co-host of Talking Too Loud, a hilarious podcast where Chris and Sylvie speak to entrepreneurs the highs and lows of building a human brand.
Al ElliottMy name is Chris Savage. I'm the co-founder and CEO of a company called Wistia. We are a video marketing platform, so really just trying to make it easy for anyone who's using video to communicate, to market, um, to share their stories externally, internally. And that looks like hosting and analytics on how your video's performing, no ads in the player, fastest player out there, um, but then lots of tools to help you quickly edit, help you record, help you put on live events.
Leanne ElliottAnd I'm gonna Dive straight into it, Chris. What is your hot take?
Al ElliottYeah, my hot take is that B2B influencers are here now. And I think like we're all used to as consumers in the— on the B2C side of things, like looking at TikTok, looking at Reels, looking at Shorts, and finding people who speak to us, who we trust on different topics. So for me, it might be I have a home gym. And so I follow home gym influencers and really feel like I know them and trust them. And if they suggest something that I feel like is going to fit, I'm like, I'm going to run and get that. But for a long time, we haven't really had this model in B2B. And it almost feels weird because like the people who are talking about the home gyms, they're really talking about fitness. They're talking about this very broad thing that anyone who wants to be in shape or even thinking about being in shape would find an interest in. And a lot of B2B stuff feels very niche. And so it's like, why would someone be talking about these like really niche like B2B topics? And I'd say what I'm seeing is that this is happening now, um, and people are figuring out that actually if you can educate people and help people and inspire them around things with their work, you can have a really meaningful impact on their life, you know, like you can have a meaningful impact on what earn, on how they interact with others, on what their career progression looks like. And I'm seeing a big shift starting to occur there. And I think that if you're running a B2B business, it's something that you need to pay attention to. But it's also something, if you are someone who wants to be a content creator, I think you need to pay a lot of attention to it because there's huge, huge opportunity. And I imagine that in 3 to 4 years from now, this is going to be really obvious. Uh, but today it's not. And so therefore it's like a good time to jump into it. There's a guy named Dave Gerhardt who runs a like content community called Exit 5 that basically is like educating and inspiring like B2B marketers. And so if you follow him, he's showing stuff that's happening in his life. He's showing not just B2B marketing things, um, but that's a part of what he talks about and can have a real influence. And so there's, I see a lot of When he recommends a product, like people like raise their head up and like pay attention and look at it. Scott Clary is somebody who is really focused on like entrepreneurs and marketers writ large, which is a little bit of like a trend from folks who might want to be starting a business to people who are actually in the thick of it doing it. And he's built this like massive, engaged, like really like optimistic audience. And so, um, when we've done stuff with him, for example, uh, he, it gets in front of huge eyeballs and can really move the needle. Um, and I'm, I'm seeing it all over the place. Uh, but yeah, those are a couple examples.
Leanne ElliottIs it something that you think Wistia will start to do?
Al ElliottYes. I mean, it's something that I've been doing basically. Um, lots of people have talked about this as like founder brand because I think that's what it seems like historically, right? Like a lot of the biggest companies that are out there, We end up hearing about some of their CEOs and how they think, and that brand gives us a guess at how the company will act. And so it's something— I used to tell our story a lot in the early days, and then I kind of stopped. And a few years ago, I was like, you know, this is something— you know, you should always be trying to look for the things that only you can do. And this is something that I think only I can do, and I actually enjoyed doing it in the early days. And so recently I've been posting a ton, sharing a lot about the behind the scenes of what it's like to manage and run Wistia. And that looks like, you know, talking about sometimes our planning processes, talking about the products we're launching, why we're launching them. We have a brand campaign that went live today that I'm about to post about that I'm like so excited about. It's super creative and fun. And the other side benefit, if you go out and do this, Is that actually you just get a closer connection with customers? Because when people feel like they know you, they're much more likely to give you feedback, especially if it's a negative piece of feedback or it's on the border of like, I don't know if I should share this or not. And I love that. It's like unbelievably useful. You can tell when someone is going too far. And so what we're actually seeing, and actually LinkedIn also has this like vertical video tab now. What I'm seeing is that people are using it. As like you're scrolling through TikTok or something like I feel like I should probably educate myself or like do something I'm going to feel like a little bit better about because it's maybe work related and they'll go to LinkedIn and do the same thing. And so the content that does work there is something where you can leave feeling like inspired or educated or empowered to do something that you wouldn't do otherwise. So if it's a piece of content that's like an egregious, you know, clickbaity thing. That doesn't really deliver. And if it's something that is in your life, but like might actually be relevant to a lot of other people going through a similar experience, that is the type of thing that I think does better. I could go on because I also think that like that content about walking your dog might do great on, on Instagram. Like the context really matters, right? So where it is, is going to deeply impact how people perceive it. Yeah, Chris, I mean, I totally agree. I suppose that Leanne and I and you and Sylvie are trying to be B2B influencers in a way. I think the, the, not the concern, but the question I would have is if we are talking about someone who is promoting software or big financial decisions, then this could affect pretty much the impact or impact the future and the direction of an entire business. We're not just talking about someone recommending a new iPhone case here. Well, is this gonna be harder to build trust? Should people build trust? Do you even think this is morally acceptable seeing as it could impact so many jobs and livelihoods?
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, what you're asking, Al, is, is it dangerous for some people to have too much power online. Influencers, maybe people like Joe Rogan perhaps, um, is one that popped out at the end of the election there, wasn't he? Um, it's interesting, it really is. It comes down a lot to trust, isn't it, and authenticity and truth in what people are saying. And yeah, speaking, speaking of trust, Chris made, um, that prediction as well, that it's going to take about 3 to 4 years for this to become mainstream, for this, these B2B influencers to be mainstream. But what platform are they gonna use? Um, logic does say LinkedIn, but let's be honest, not many of us scroll through LinkedIn for fun, do we? Sometimes, maybe. I do sometimes.
Al ElliottDo you? You're a very odd individual. Um, here's something I'd like to have your, uh, your thoughts on, Lee, though. Um, Chris mentioned how content needs to fit the platform, so like dog walking on Instagram or business insights on LinkedIn. But how do you think leaders should handle that? Where's the line between having an engaging personality and not doing stupid dances to sell something like accountancy software, for example?
Leanne ElliottI think a lot of it comes down to being authentic and thinking about, you know, if you're— this is marketing, isn't it? It's— you'll speak to this much better than I can, Al, but it's about understanding, um, you know, the message that you want to communicate and to what audience. And the platform you're on is going to dictate to an extent some of that audience. Um, the things that make me cringe, and I think we talked about this on the show last week actually, the, um, the kind of the very personal messages that can come out on LinkedIn, um, can feel a bit Weird. I think that's, you know, maybe better for places like Instagram or Facebook. But then you look at Linda the Bad Boss, who's done a brilliant, a brilliant thing of actually creating a character that's gone viral on TikTok. And her LinkedIn looks, looks very different. It does have some bits from Linda on there, but there's also a lot more from Kate. And so I think it's really just making, you know, thinking if you're going to be a B2B influencer, this is B2B marketing, and with that in mind requires B2B strategy. I don't think doing funny dances necessarily is gonna Yeah, and engendered trust from customers.
Al ElliottYeah, I think— I'm not sure that LinkedIn users, the majority of LinkedIn people, have got the memo that if you create content that either entertains or educates, then it's cool. Most of the content on LinkedIn tends to be like, look at me, I am— and it's just humblebrags, and I am so blessed to be— oh, shut up. Anyway, Leanne, I'm stopping being grumpy about LinkedIn. It's now my favourite time of the week, the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne, I've got 3 great questions this week. Are you ready?
Leanne ElliottContinue.
Al ElliottGreat. So first question is this: my company was recently acquired by a larger tech firm. Initially, the promise was that we'd maintain our autonomy, but slowly our culture is being eroded. Our Friday afternoon beers are now against corporate policy. Our flexible hours are being replaced with structured schedules, and even our collaborative workspace is being reorganized to match the corporate layout. The hardest part of this is what— this is heartbreaking. The hardest part of this is watching my team's spirit fade. We used to be so tight-knit group. We used to thrive on innovation and quick decision-making, but now everything requires approval from multiple departments. 3 of my best developers have already started job hunting. Should I stick up for our scrappy culture we had before the acquisition and risk clashes with our new owners, or just fall in? Lee, thoughts?
Leanne ElliottOh yeah, it's sad, isn't it? Um, I think my thought is, to what end? If you're gonna fight, to what end? You're a small acquisition in a large corporate, you know. It's David and Goliath, it's a nice story, but in corporate world it doesn't, you know, acquisition-wise doesn't really work like that. Um, so I think to what end? Maybe that it's you've got 2, 3 years contracted that you need to stay in the business to support the handover and integration, in which case, again, do you really want to rock the boat that much if, if you've got to get this job done? Um, I think it's really sad. This— I guess there's a few things here. Psychologically, this needs processing. It's a model I've mentioned before quite a few times on the podcast because it's really good. Psychologist called Bridges created the, um, the change and transition model. Basic premise being that That change happens very quickly. Our psychological transition required to go through that change happens much slower. So, at this point, I think you probably want to engage a coach, maybe a therapist, somebody that you can talk to about closing the chapter on the business that you built and sold. It is no longer your business. It is no longer the business you created. It is now part of something bigger. And there are huge achievements to be internalized from that and huge wins to celebrate.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut equally, it is about ending that chapter. At this point, I think it's being pragmatic. Nothing's gonna take away from the awesome business that you built and the awesome culture that you had. What you wanna do now is support your people in the best way that you can to make the decision that's right for them. And it sounds like if your people are, they thrive in environments that are innovative and creative and agile and fast-paced, startups for them. And sometimes that's just the way it is. Some people can easily move between the two. I've always been an SME person myself. Health corporate was not, not appeal because I like those values, um, of being able to be autonomous and have control of your, your work and how you do it. So I think it's, it's probably coaching your people at this point and understanding from them, um, do they think that they're missing the culture that you created, or are they— is it an extension of smaller businesses in general, startups in general? Can they, um, can they get on with the culture that they found themselves in? Are their own values aligned? Um, if they're not, it's going to be really tricky for them to continue. And I think this will be quite cathartic for you as well, to, to go through these coaching conversations with your employees. And I think what you're going to learn is there's going to be a group of people who are going to be quite excited about suddenly finding themselves in a corporate and want to crack on with that. And you don't want to make that more difficult for them. You actually want to be the person who's helping to facilitate, um, and bridge those relationships with other leaders in the business to help them moving forward. Because it sounds for whatever, you know, you decide with your people, you're probably not gonna stick around for much longer than you absolutely need to. And the people that, you know, have decided that the values and the culture doesn't fit with what they're looking for, help them job hunt, help them look at different things, and, you know, reassure them you'll provide a reference for them. Do some research with them. Attrition is a very, very expected thing as part of an M&A, and I think particularly if the organization isn't doing much to integrate you very proactively, Then, yeah, cynics might say that's actually part of the intention anyway, because they didn't necessarily want your team, they wanted some other aspect of your business. But that's just conjecture. I don't know. I'm not there. But that would be my thoughts. You've clearly invested a lot of your energy in your people over your time and did a fantastic job in doing that. Keep doing that. Keep investing in your people. Take them through these coaching conversations. Figure out what's going to be the best move for them moving forward and do what you can, um, within, I guess, the constraints of what you can do in terms of confidentiality and, and all that jazz. Um, as I'm assuming you're still part of the, the senior leadership team, but that would be my thoughts.
Al ElliottYeah, good answer. Some really, really good advice there. A couple of thoughts. Um, if you— the person writing in— if you— it sounds like you're gonna leave. It sounds like you're gonna start your own gig. That's fine. That's— this is probably your life, is that you were gonna Just go in cycles and you're gonna go and start your own thing. That's absolutely fine. But like Leanne always says, you know, look, put your own oxygen mask on before anyone else. If you start rocking the boat, then it's potentially— if you've got an earnout, potentially you could get binned, lose your earnout. And just in case anyone's not heard of an earnout, it's basically when you sell a company, usually it's like 2 or 3 years, hit certain targets, you get the rest of the money that's due to you. Um, get your earnout and then you can go and do what you want and you can go and take some of the people who are not as happy at this company and go and start it all over again if that's what you want to do. Uh, but yeah, rocking the boat. It sounds like you're very protective over your people, which is great, but sometimes, you know, pick your battles. I think as Leanne always says, just, um, it sounds like this isn't one that you're gonna win, so it's probably not one that you should be taking on.
Leanne ElliottAnd an interesting lesson in hindsight, um, you know, this is always why we talk about the RX7, the culture tool that, that we use with our clients, is also really good in um, acquisition conversations as part of the due diligence process. It will help you understand, um, from an investor perspective, the culture and, and how that's impacted performance in the company that you're, you're interested in acquiring. And from the acquired business's perspective, an idea of how aligned your culture might be to the, the business that's, um, that's looking to acquire you. Um, so yeah, I would always include some kind of culture audit in your due diligence as well, as I'm sure you will, as I said. This isn't, this isn't going to be your, your only building, building, um, exit, is it? I think, um, yeah, clearly you're going to do that again.
Al ElliottOkay, question number 2. We are transitioning to become a fully eco-friendly operation, which includes going paperless in our admin processes and introducing new digital workflows. The younger staff are fully behind this and are even pushing for more radical changes, but about half of our more experienced team members are strongly resistant. What started as a grumbling about change has evolved into a serious rift. Our older workers feel like they're being pushed out because they're less comfortable with this new technology, while our younger staff are threatening to leave if we don't move faster with our green initiatives. I'm stuck between them. I'm stuck maintaining stability with experienced workers and keeping our younger talent who bring fresh perspectives. Any advice on how to please everyone, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYou're never going to please everyone. People don't like change, um, so trying to aim to please everybody is, is, is foolish. But you want to, you want to please a majority, and it sounds like you've got a bit of a, bit of a divide at the minute. Um, do you know what, tune in to our episode on Thursday. We're going to be actually talking about project management and the execution of it, how it fits into, how it can impact employee engagement, people culture, that type of thing. Um, this just sounds like a bad change management process that's been executed rather than anything to necessarily do with people and cultural relationships within your business. Um, I think it's just been a— it's been a not a great execution. Um, there needs to be a lot of talking before you actually change stuff. You want to understand why people are concerned, um, what support they're going to need, whether it be in terms of building their understanding, um, any training they might need. People need the why behind the what. Um, So, I think it sounds like there's been a step missed there. It is difficult to do it retrospectively. That's why we hear, you know, daft stats like 75% of change programmes fail, because it's really hard to do it retrospectively when people have got a bee in their bonnet. It's even harder to drive the change that you're after. But at this point, I think consultation, lots and lots of consultation with your employees that seem to be a bit more resistant to change, understanding why, understanding how it's making their jobs more difficult. Because let's be honest, if anything's making your job easier, you're not going to resist for long. You're going to jump on.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAt some point. So, why is this change making their jobs harder? Why do they feel ill-equipped to adopt this change as part of their working life? What can you do to better support them in transitioning to the operation that you want? Once you understand their concerns, then do the same consultation with the people that are really on board with the change. Why are you so happy with it? What do you see as the benefits that perhaps we're not communicating very well, but you get? Yeah. Um, and then start to build some bridges, probably between some kind of, of steering group that's going to include employees who are resistant and employees who are open to that change, to hopefully start to, um, bridge some of these gaps in, in understanding and increase the adoption of the change that you're, you're trying to do, um, would be my thoughts. But definitely tune in on Thursday. I'm sure our guest will give you some even better ideas on that.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. That's Laura on Thursday. You're going to really enjoy that. Um, the, on a more tactical sort of idea is potentially reverse mentoring might work. Uh, you can get some of the people at the, I'm guessing Gen Z, this is the younger people, maybe millennials, Gen Z, who are really behind this and behind the new technology to work with some of the people who are slightly older and maybe not behind it as much. Uh, maybe there could be a, uh, maybe the younger people could create a little knowledge base of like what happens when this happens. We'll go and do this. You know, if they're really behind the change, let's let's harness that energy, harness that enthusiasm, and get them to help everyone to come on board rather than just going why are you standing on one side of the river going why are you not over this side? You know, are you stupid? And talking of stupid, got to got to think about the that the fact that maybe some of the older people do feel stupid that they don't get this. They do feel I've been doing this same the same way. I don't like iPads. I don't like Dropbox, I don't know what it is, and they just feel stupid. So rather than saying, I'm sorry, I feel really stupid about this, they go, no, we don't want this, we want to go back to how it was. So there's probably lots of thoughts here, lots of emotions, but I think if you handle it like Leanne said and get everyone to work together towards this common goal, is that not the point of any kind of project, Lee?
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely.
Al ElliottOkay, question number 3: I am really struggling to understand my boss's Jekyll and Hyde personality. Getting juicy already. At work, she's incredibly harsh, berating team members publicly, sending very abrupt emails at midnight, and creating such a tense atmosphere that people literally hide when they hear her coming. The confusing part is that I recently saw her at my local community centre where she volunteers teaching elderly people how to use computers. She was patient, kind, and absolutely lovely, completely different from her work persona. It's like she's 2 different people. Why is she like this in work when she's clearly a perfectly lovely person out of the workplace?
Leanne ElliottYes, we do, we do adjust our— how we present ourselves and our personality or identity is slightly different to different people, don't we? I'm very different, um, on— I was gonna say I'm very different on the show than I am with clients, but I'm not actually. I'm very different with Al on a Saturday, um, than I am necessarily when I'm talking to a client who's going through a really tough time with a member of staff or something. So, yeah, there's going to be some light and shade to your personality and your character that you're going to bring to different scenarios. For it to be that extreme, though, yeah, that's unsettling, isn't it? I think it's more a case that it sounds like your manager has inherited some really bad habits from their manager. It sounds like maybe they haven't had much training, much development in terms of their own leadership capability. It sounds quite— coercive, doesn't it, in terms of style, which is very typical of kind of the— so yeah, certain managers from the boomer generation. So it could well be that she's inherited these, um, bad behaviors, which we have seen some through research actually. Um, the Oak and Gage research that we talked about on the pod last week dug into this as well. And yes, we are seeing millennials as well inheriting some ineffective leadership behavior. So it could be a bit of that. I think it's— what's really tricky is that you can understand it And that could help to an extent, but you understanding it isn't going to go very far to making this toxic environment your manager's creating okay. It might give you a bit of compassion and a bit of empathy in certain moments, but it's not really going to change the toxicity and, and the impact that's having on, on the team and morale and culture and performance. Um, so it's really tricky. I mean, if you want to try and do something about it, I think it maybe depends on the relationship you have with your manager, um, or whether you can strike up a, a less formal relationship with your manager outside of work. But you've got to kind of ask yourself, at what point is, is this your problem? Like, I appreciate it's impacting you in terms of work, but what you can do to actually change your management's behavior without somebody else in the organization who has more authority in terms of, of their performance and manager's performance, um, then anything you do is really going to rely on The goodwill and openness to change of your manager, and that's a really hard thing to know if that person is open to. It sounds like they're probably not if they're cracking on with this type of behavior in the workplace. Again, I guess it comes back to the first question, to what end are you trying to dig into this? Ultimately, if you really want to know, you're going to have to ask her. That's all we can chat and predict. And come up with different theories as to why, um, there's this dissonance in, in behavior and character. Um, but ultimately, only your manager is gonna know. If you think it is escalating to a point of bullying, if this is becoming some kind of, um, real, you know, real serious toxicity in the workplace in terms of the manager's behavior, then escalate it. Always have to escalate that. Um, if people are fearful, if people are hiding, um, then that does sound like something you'd want to escalate anyway. So maybe consider doing that as well, whether it's to HR, whether it's to a senior manager.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottA coach, a peer, whoever it is that you can. But yeah, it's a tricky one, isn't it?
Al ElliottIt is. I think what you need is— there's a previous guest from way back when called Rob Kalvarovsky, who's coming on again as a hot take in a few weeks' time. He's written a book called Antidotes to an Asshole Boss, and he's got lots of stuff. Basically, he's the asshole boss guy because he used to be an asshole boss, and he's got some really, really good stuff on there. One thing, because I was editing it yesterday, one thing he said during that interview Uh, to me was that everybody's got fear, and asshole bosses are usually the most scared of all the people. Um, so there's a very good chance that this person is just a lovely person in normal, but comes into work and they are terrified of whatever. And whether it's like they're worried that they're going to get the sack, they're worried they're not going to hit their targets, they're worried that you're not going to turn on her, they're— what perhaps she's worried that you lot hate her. And that's why she's like it. She just preactive— proactively goes out there as horrible to you. Um, or maybe not horrible, but maybe a little bit stern with you. Um, just to, uh, uh, just in case she finds out that you don't like her. Um, another one to look at is the previous episode, 143, which is, uh, with Kate Waterfall-Hill and Linda the bad manager. Um, she, through sort of like humor, she shows all kinds of ways in which managers or behaviors managers exhibit, uh, um, and the reasons behind them. So I didn't do that very well, Kate. Sorry. Go back and listen to our episode 143.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think there's lots you can do to, to read up and understand the behavior that this person is enacting. But ultimately, as I said, maybe I'm just a bit pessimistic today because my paracetamol's wearing off. But, you know, you understand it, it's gonna have a bit of empathy, and it's probably helped, really helped with your leadership development, actually. You learn as much from bad managers, probably learn more from bad managers than you do from good managers. So probably great for your development. But I think also there's a Yeah, there's something that needs to be escalated here, I think, doesn't there, Al? If that toxicity is causing that much fear in the team.
Al ElliottYeah, potentially. But again, going back to the previous question, you know, pick your battles. Is it— do you want to get involved in this? So what is it do you want? Do you want her, this, this manager, to be a better boss, or do you just want to be able to cope with it? And if it's a question of just coping with it, perhaps, you know, perhaps— I'm worried I'm saying that this— that I might get a stare from Leanne, but perhaps you just Pick your battle with that one and go, right, she's not, you know, she's not bullying, she's just a bit frightening.
Leanne ElliottIt'll buy you time, but I think ultimately that environment is gonna— you're gonna disengage from that environment over time if this person remains. Um, but yeah, it might, might buy you some patience and understanding in the interim.
Al ElliottOkay, that is the end. Um, a quick reminder, if you like to hear stories how organizations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then tune in every single Thursday because those episodes bring a great guest with a great story.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you like to keep up with the latest news and love a good Agony Aunt segment, and if you like today's episode, then tune in next Tuesday where we will bring you more of our weekly news roundup, the Hot Take segment where workplace experts give controversial opinions, and of course our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery where I answer all your questions.
Al ElliottLike you just heard. Okay guys, I think that's it. Let's— poor Leanne needs to go have a little lie down. Um, I'll say what Leanne normally says, the best way to help the show is to subscribe on whatever platform you listen to, um, to go and tell people. And then if you like something on the show, then post it on LinkedIn or Twitter or wherever you, you, you post your post of choices. Um, the best way to help us is to get— help us get more listeners. So thank you for listening. Thank you for putting up with us, Leanne. Wish Leanne all the very best. Please jump on LinkedIn, tell her that you wish she was okay and wish she gets better.
Leanne ElliottBetter.
Al ElliottI wish you were okay. That's a bit weird. Wish you got better.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye, Leanne. Bye.
Al ElliottBye-bye. Yeah, good answer. Um, I like the— I like the fact that you're