Episode 113 · 9 July 2024 · 49:19
How to go from Toxic Boss to Human Leader, with Alexis Zahner
Featuring Alexis Zahner
How to go from Toxic Boss to Human Leader, with Alexis Zahner
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Summer series kickoff and introduction to Alexis Zahner
Alexis's journey from footballer to marketer to leader
Who Alexis was before Patagonia
What human-centric leadership actually means
The best human-centred leader Alexis has seen
The hardest part: the intention-impact gap
Self-leadership as the foundation
Emotional wisdom explained
interview#emotional-wisdom#leadership#pillar
Why coaching isn't softer than managing
interview#coaching#management#leadership
Generational differences in leadership
What Alexis thinks is overhyped right now
Where to find Alexis and closing remarks
Show notes
From Toxic Boss to Human Leader — with Alexis Zahner
Guest: Alexis Zahner — co-founder of Human Leaders, former Patagonia leader, and ex-high-level footballer turned human-centric leadership advocate.
Alexis Zahner used to win at any cost. A naturally competitive footballer who carried that same "win at all costs" mentality into her corporate career, she admits she wasn't a great person to work with or for. Then a few life-changing experiences — including her time at Patagonia — shifted everything.
She joins Al and Leanne to unpack her journey from toxic competitor to human-centric leader, what "human leadership" actually means (and what it doesn't), and why self-leadership is the foundation everything else sits on. They dig into the intention-impact gap, the power of emotional wisdom, why coaching isn't "softer" management, and the uncomfortable truth about what gets in the way of becoming a better leader.
Top 3 Takeaways
The intention-impact gap is the hardest bridge to cross. You can intend to be a human-centred leader, but if your team experiences you differently, the impact is what matters. Get curious about the gap between what you think you're doing and what people actually feel.
Self-leadership comes first. You can't lead humans well if you haven't done the work on yourself — self-awareness, emotional wisdom, and empowered agency are the foundation. Start small: attune to what makes you feel good and what drains you.
Coaching isn't softer management. A great coach is often more demanding, not less. The difference is they know their people deeply, so they can push in ways that land — because the trust is already there.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottThe first time you've said that.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, and I am an official business owner. I'm not really, I'm just a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottThe reason why Leanne is the first time Leanne said that is because you were notified that you were chartered about 5 days ago.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think it was Just the day after, um, or a couple days after the episode we released on, on the very topic, what is a business psychologist? Um, so yeah, there you go. I'm, I'm, I said in the episode actually that Al might not like it so much because it doesn't have the same kind of catchiness, does it? Business psychologist, business owner, some first signs of work.
Al ElliottWell, I'm, I'm gonna go for chartership of business owners, then I can be a chartered business— actually, I don't think you can do that. Just a professional idiot. This is a Tuesday episode, which usually means it's Leanne and I chatting about what's new in world of work. Uh, we have our workplace surgery, et cetera, et cetera. But we're gonna change things up in July. Over the next couple of weeks, we're gonna be doing something a little bit differently. The reason is that when I go on holiday in August, like we're gonna have August off pretty much, we're just gonna do a pod and that's it. Um, then I like to listen to lots of stories, lots of interviews, all that kind of stuff. And we thought, why not just pile up your, your queue by having lots and lots of interview episodes? So that's what we're doing in July. July is chock-a-block full of interview episodes.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so this is kind of the start of our special summer schedule. Long-term listeners will know we did a similar thing last year and shook it up a little bit. Had some quite fun episodes there in terms of— what did we do? The psychology of happiness.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottUm, other little more lighthearted stuff. So yes, we're going to be bringing you, um, for the next 8 weeks a slightly different schedule. For July, we will still be on 2 episodes a week, but both of those episodes will be bringing you interviews with incredible guests. So you can download them, download them all and binge when you're on holiday, or they can Vacation for American listeners. Um, and then of course, fear not, I know you're gonna miss Al and I. We'll be back soon. We'll be back in August, Tuesday episodes. Or will it be on a Thursday, Al?
Al ElliottProbably a Tuesday. I don't know.
Leanne ElliottI don't know. Don't know.
Alexis ZahnerExciting.
Leanne ElliottWe don't know. We'll decide. But Tuesday, normal format episode, just Al and I, things we've seen, weekly surgery. We're gonna keep it all a bit more lighthearted, a bit of banter, uh, nothing too heavy for the summer holidays. And of course, I should also then apologize to our listeners and friends in the southern hemisphere who are actually now going into the depths of winter. So, but because we're in the north, our schedule kind of goes with it. So yeah, we don't, we don't mean to exclude you.
Al ElliottOf course, the other good thing about August is that we will just turn up and do one podcast episode a week so we can have the rest of August off. We live in Europe. We, that's what we do. No one works in August in Europe. So, uh, you may see us turning up with a couple of margaritas as well. Let's see.
Leanne ElliottI'm not sure about that, Al. Maybe.
Al ElliottSlippery slope.
Leanne ElliottSlippery, slippery slope. But maybe one after we've recorded. Why not? Anyway, let's get into the good stuff. Our guest today, speaking of people from the Southern Hemisphere, our guest is indeed from the Southern Hemisphere. Um, she played football at a very, very high level in Australia at a young age. It seemed that she had it all, but looking back, she realized that she was actually quite a toxic person at that stage of her life. Interesting admission there.
Al ElliottJust to be clear, that's her words, not ours.
Leanne ElliottHer innate competitive nature meant that she would try and win at any cost. Then a few things happened that ended up with her moving 8,000 miles from Australia to Canada and completely reinventing herself. It was her experience at the retailer Patagonia that helped her realize her mission in this world was not to win, but to others become better leaders. So let's go and meet the co-founder of Human Leaders, the incredible Alexis Zahner.
Alexis ZahnerSo my name is Alexis Zahner, as you mentioned. Um, I'm the co-director and founder of a leadership development company called Human Leaders. Um, our work is really to support teams and people to create workplaces where humans thrive. Um, so I'd like to think that's what I'm famous for.
Al ElliottSo you started the Human Leaders program. I've been looking at you on LinkedIn. You've done a fair bit in your, in your past, in your shortish career. There's a lot going on. Can you tell me, how did you get to starting Human Leaders?
Alexis ZahnerI have done a lot of roles in the past and been in a lot of different industries. So I cut my teeth as a marketing consultant, as a new grad, after studying a bachelor's in marketing and management. So that's what I first went into. And from there, I ended up in local government. From there, I had a period of time working for Fairfax, which is one of Australia's leading news publications. And it was really out of an experience or experiences of management, good, bad, and ugly, that I really came to see that work can be something that's really damaging for human beings. So as a result of my personal experience, I took some time off. I went overseas for a period of time and then found myself working in Canada for a company called Patagonia, which is one of the world's leading sustainability apparel companies. And I was in a leadership role at Patagonia, and I was responsible for a team of about 20 staff across Western Canada. And it was my first experience managing other human beings, so realizing how challenging that was. And also realizing how empowering and impactful leaders can be in the lives of others. And it sort of sent me down a personal path of wanting to become the best leader I can be. And from that, I'd studied my master's in business psychology, became a mindfulness teacher, and started studying cognitive behavioral therapy— all ways that I wanted to sort of modify and uplevel my leadership. And yeah, just wanted to apply that in the workplace setting and as a custodian for the people that I was leading so I could take the best care of them possible. And since returning to Australia about 5 years ago, um, I, I wanted to create a company and programs within that that could empower other leaders to do the same, to really lead in this human-centric way, to, yeah, create workplaces where, where people can thrive and, and do their best work.
Leanne ElliottIt all seemed to change for Alexis at Patagonia, and that's the power of a great workplace. It really can transform transform your team's views, opinions, and attitudes to work, which is exactly what happened to Alexis. So let's rejoin the interview where Al finds out more about what happened at Patagonia.
Al ElliottSo what sort of leader do you think you were back in the Patagonian days?
Alexis ZahnerPatagonia is me trying to be a better person, to be honest. Before that, I wasn't a great person. I'd worked in very commission-orientated, sales-driven cultures I was extremely cutthroat. I've always been very accomplishment-driven. I grew up playing football at a very high level and then played in female football premier leagues here in Australia, so I was used to competitive environments. I was used to achieving, and I was used to doing that at all costs. If that meant taking down opposition, I was very comfortable doing so. So in my young career, I think I became quite a toxic person.
Al ElliottYeah.
Alexis ZahnerTo be completely honest with you. And it wasn't until I sort of had a few things happen in my life— the loss of a parent, some relationships unraveled— that I realized that who I was and what my work was pushing me to be was actually really flowing through into the rest of my life and making me a lesser version of myself, a more toxic person, and someone who struggled to really connect deeply in relationships both inside and outside of work. And I just become this version of myself that I didn't love and that I didn't like looking at in the mirror. So through taking some time off and then finding this opportunity at Patagonia in Canada, it was really the first time I'd had the space and the trust from a company to be all of me in the workplace. And actually, they supported me to sort of learn the ropes of leading others through that as well. So it was the first time I'd had my work-life balance respected. I wasn't expected to work over the hours that I was being paid for. I was supported from the general manager directly to develop my skills in leadership to better lead my team. And I was allowed to make mistakes, which was something that for the entirety of my adult life and career so far had been utterly terrifying, especially coming from those very cutthroat environments, mistakes feel almost threatening, um, on a very real physical level. So it was the first time I was given the space to learn on the job, make mistakes, learn from those mistakes, and move through that. So I think for me, Patagonia was actually a turning point and my first experience in a culture that saw me as a whole person. So it was very cool.
Al ElliottSo let's talk about the term human-centric. I suspect there's a number of people, probably my age, who will sit there and roll their eyes and go, this is hippie bullshit. What's— what— why are you calling it human-centered? So tell us why we're wrong. Tell us what it actually means and why it's important.
Alexis ZahnerI love that. And, uh, I hear you. And for a long time, I, I was the same. Um, you know, I grew up in an era where I was taught that being loyal to your job was, um, was really important. Um, and, and working really hard to, to earn a good packet and status was, you know, the way forward. So that's not necessarily foreign to me. However, overwhelmingly, the research supports that when we treat people as human beings first and we take care of their most basic fundamental needs as human beings— so that includes their health and well-being, that includes creating cultures where people can feel good about what they do— we can both have successful businesses and very productive and profitable businesses, but we can also keep the people that work for us healthy and safe from psychosocial hazards and things like that. So I think the conversation doesn't need to be a this or that, it's really a both/and. And so that's really what human-centric leadership is about. It's about treating people as people first, and trusting that by doing so, they'll do their best work for us and create incredible businesses that are profitable and bring fantastic products and services to the world. So I think It's probably easier for most of us to resonate with experience where we haven't been led by a human-centered leader. So a human-centered leader focuses less on the individual and their individual needs, so their well-being, showing that person that they're valued, that they matter, that their contributions are meaningful. Most of us can say, yeah, I've, I've been in a workplace where I've not felt valued, where I've been treated as a number, when I've been treated as a KPI. I've only been respected when I'm delivering value. So that's what it feels like to not work for a human-centered leader, someone who cares little about you as a person and cares more about what you can bring to the company, such as your outcomes, the sales you make perhaps. I come from a marketing and very sales-orientated background, so if I wasn't driving results and getting clients to sign on the dotted line, I had little value in that company. So that can leave us feeling really disenchanted, at times disrespected if our needs aren't being seen or they're not being prioritized. And it's a lot of take from the workplace. We feel like our leaders and the workplace itself is constantly taking from us rather than giving back. So that's how it can feel to work for a leader who's not human-centered. Conversely, a leader who is human-centered is someone who values all of us. So not just the productivity metrics that we bring to the team, but perhaps it's things like our capacity to support our teammates. It's our capacity to build strong interpersonal relationships. So the value we bring to the team environment itself.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Alexis Zahnerversus just the outcomes. It's recognizing that as a whole human, there's other things happening in our life outside of work as well. Taking an interest in our health and maybe our family's health. Again, I know I've worked for organizations where there's been periods of time where I've had ill family members and had to go and support family and take on caring roles and things like that as well. You can feel so much guilt and shame as an individual when your workplace sort of doesn't give you the space to deal with some of those very real-life things that fall outside of work. So a human-centered leader is able to recognize the whole human. They value the whole human, not just the things that we measure through our sort of KPIs, if you will.
Al ElliottI say the best human-centered leader you've come across, who springs to mind?
Alexis ZahnerI would have to say we had an incredible conversation about a year and a half ago now on We Are Human Leaders with the— he was the current CEO of WD-40 company at the time, a gentleman named Gary Ridge. So he was a man who was responsible for— oh, I would not like to think how many thousands, potentially hundreds of thousands, or at least tens of thousands of human beings. And Gary was just the most warm-hearted, gentle, open-minded human being. And he'd started WD-40. His story is incredible. He was effectively in Australia, is where he originated from, and he was bootstrapping it from his house here in Australia, and then moved out to San Francisco where he's been based for a long time now. But I think what makes Gary so special is the adult relationship that he's been able to broker with his employees. And when I say adult relationship, Gary does not micromanage. The WD-40 company has no managers per se. They have only coaches. So the way that they run their entire company is about recognizing that every single human being has the innate capacity to be brilliant. And our job as coaches within their organization is to—
Al ElliottYeah.
Alexis Zahnercreate an environment where that human being's brilliance can come through in any job that they do. So that might be the person who's putting the red caps on the top of the WD-40 bottle on the production line, or it might be the people who are running the people and culture department, whatever it may be. But the way that he has structured that company— and by the way, this is a company that has a 98% employee engagement rate and a 98% employee satisfaction rate. Wow. Statistically improbable data given the scale of the company and how many employees they have. But it's just testament to when you have the right people from the top down fostering a culture that everyone matters, everyone creates meaning in their work. And I think one of their ethos was something like, we're here to create memories for the people that we serve, or something of that ilk. Just incredible. Just an incredible, incredible man. So for me, Gary really embodies everything that we talk about at Human Leaders. And he's just— he's also a brilliant example that it can be done at scale at a massive publicly listed company. I think it just gives us a really good blueprint that, you know, there's no excuse for not being able to do this. It takes willingness and investment in ourselves and in our workplace culture to get there, but it's certainly possible at all size company in all industry.
Al ElliottWhat's going to be the hardest bit for most people, do you find, moving towards being a human-centered leader?
Alexis ZahnerI think the hardest piece is what we call the intention-impact gap. And it's starting to reconcile the space between where we are now and where we want to be. And certainly, this was the experience I had as a leader. I thought that I was warm, approachable, empowering, all of these things. But it wasn't until I was able to seek feedback from my team that I realized the impact I was having wasn't being received in that same way. So I would urge people to be open to the experience of starting with an idea of where you are now, where you want to be, and then start getting some feedback from the environment around you to understand where you might be falling short of that best version of yourself. So that might be getting feedback from employees. It might be speaking to mentors. It could be just observing people and observing how they react to things that you're saying and doing, and just starting to take in some of that observational data. But I feel that that's the most challenging place for people to start, is to understand where they're currently at and where they want to be, and where there's that space between the impact and the intention— sorry, the intention they have and the impact that they want to have.
Leanne ElliottThis is a great point that Alexis brings up. Cause and effect, essentially. It's one thing saying this is the leader I am or want to be, but unless you know how your leadership style impacts others positively or negatively, it's just chat really. I mean, like almost all psychological concepts, leadership has been on quite a journey in the last 100 years, but I wanna take you back first to the 1950s and '60s. This was all about leadership behaviour, and that the behaviourist approach needed to be both relationships orientated and task orientated to be an effective leader. I guess it's almost the start of the leader versus manager debate. Then in the '70s, we moved on to contingency theories, which in its simplest form means leaders need to be adaptable and lead in line with what's happening around them to be effective. Then in the '80s, a psychologist called Bernard Bass introduced the idea of transformational leadership. I know you've heard of that one. Yes, the dominant leadership theory is 40 years old, like many other lovely things. So turning 40, um, fast. Anyway, basically highlighted the role of leaders in inspiring and motivating followers to achieve extraordinary outcomes. Transformational leaders elevate their followers' motivation and performance by fostering a sense of collective purpose. That's ultimately what transformational leadership is. You know, modern-day psychologists— this is an old idea at this point— we are starting to question if effective leadership actually requires all 3 dominant theories of leadership. Leaders need to know when to be task-focused and when to be relationship-focused. They need to know when to be adaptable, particularly in this VUCA world, and they need to create a shared sense of purpose. So the dominant theory with this view is the Engaging Transformational Leadership model by the legendary Beverly Almino Metcalf. She basically outlines 4 clusters of leadership behaviors that drive high employee engagement and in turn high performance. What she's talking about here is effective leaders acting in a way that positively impacts how people think, feel, and invest energy in their work. It's leadership with intention, or if you prefer, human-centric leadership. But what's really cool about this more human-centric theory of leadership is that we have some really compelling research to back it up. A longitudinal study was done— that's A longitudinal study conducted over a long period of time. Clues in the name, really. Um, but this study looked into human-centric leadership behaviors like showing genuine concern, being accessible, and empowering employees. And they found these behaviors directly caused improvements in employee engagement and organizational performance. And this is huge. This isn't correlation, this is causation. So the researchers had a large sample They tracked the behaviors over time, and they controlled for other variables such as culture, industry type, and economic conditions. So by isolating the impact of engaging leadership or human-centric leadership, the research provided some of the most compelling and scientifically robust evidence in leadership research history. Human-centric leadership directly and positively impacts employee engagement and performance. And that's why human-centered leadership is a big deal. And that's why I am a huge fan of Alexis's work. And I think at this point in the interview, Al, you also start to come around.
Al ElliottYeah. I mean, the truth is that, um, as anyone knows, and the reason why often I interview experts is because I wanna say, that doesn't sound right to me. I don't understand that. Is this a buzzword? And, but at this point, I actually was kind of starting to get it. And I could see how human-centered leadership would work in the real world. And then Alexis threw another term at me, which activated my buzzword radar, putting it politely, this idea of self-leadership. Now, I wasn't gonna let her get away with this without explaining exactly what it was.
Alexis ZahnerSo, self-leadership is, at Human Leaders, what we deem to be the foundation of human leadership. And self-leadership We define this as doing the continuous work of understanding yourself. So for us, it has some very critical core pillars, and that includes firstly what we call our internal self-awareness. So actually getting to know ourselves, what we value, what our priorities are, you know, what that best version of ourselves looks like. So we actually have some guideposts to understand when we are in alignment or not. Other parts of that as well include our emotional wisdom. So this is really akin to emotional intelligence, EQ, and that's really the attunement to what's going on inside us and using things like our emotions as wise guides to tell us perhaps when we are moving away from our values, when our boundaries are being violated. It's getting to understand that internal world a little more and what's actually showing up for us. And lastly, and I don't want to I don't want this to sound too jargony, but the last core pillar of our self-leadership model is what we call empowered agency. And this is really taking discerning action to have the impact you desire. So it's firstly understanding what you have control over, and then it's taking action as a person, whether it be in a leadership setting or in your personal life, taking action towards what we know we have control over in the direction that we want to head. Based on that vision of ourselves, really. So self-leadership— for a leader to truly be human-centered, they have to create the space and take some intentional time to really get to know themselves well so they can actually show up in that really authentic way with the ability to connect to other people on that deeper level. And, you know, to speak to that, even in my own personal experience, I think what happens for many people is if they've never done this work before, It's going to simply feel like perhaps they're moving towards something, but there's no real orientation where. They're moving forward, but there's no true north. So that's what it can feel like, and that's what it felt like in my young career. I was moving forward, I was getting pay rises and acquiring a nice car and a this and a that, but I didn't really understand why, and I didn't really understand why it wasn't feeling good either. So that is sort of some of the inclination that we can have that maybe we're not actually attuned to some of these pieces of self-leadership. And, you know, I guess one thing to sort of caveat on that, we can't come to this realization that that's not who we want to be for a few reasons and sometimes for a period of time. Some of us don't even recognize that that's unfulfilling. And maybe we don't come to that realization in this lifetime. You know, I have a lot of beautiful family and friends around me who don't understand the choices I've made and the direction my life's gone in based on what it looks like 10 years ago. Because from what it looks like to them, I had it all going on. But what they didn't realize was that this deep level of lack of fulfillment and existential dread every day was what was really pulling me under. So for some of us, maybe we're not ready to have that realization. So the first thing I would just say is that Apply this to yourself. Don't try and talk someone else into thinking that they need to go on this journey because we can't. We have to come to the realization ourselves. So the first thing I would say for someone who does want to take themselves on this journey through self-leadership is firstly, congratulations. Secondly, strap in because it's not always easy. It's not always sunshine and rainbows. We're unpacking sometimes some uncomfortable uncomfortable truths about ourselves. And it's really a bit of an ego deep dive to an extent. So the most logical place to start, I feel, is getting clear on what is important to you. And when I say that, we like to start this at Human Leaders with an exercise that's called like your best self or your best day ever. So it's just getting clear on how do you want to feel every day versus what do you want to acquire? What do you want to have? How do you want to wake up in the morning? Who do you want to be surrounded by? How do you want to feel in your day-to-day? What makes you feel like you're contributing to the world around you in a meaningful way? Most of us cannot answer that question, and I certainly could not through my first, you know, 30 years of life and career. So that's a really nice place to start. And go gentle with yourself when you're asking yourself those questions, because often the answers will be really unclear. Because we've not been attuned to our intuition for a really long time. We've been acting out of external validation, again, like I was. It sounds like you were too, Al. These things look great on paper. And it's really easy when we get the validation from the world around us that those things look great, and so we should be chasing them. So often that little voice of intuition is so tucked away and so hidden, we don't know where to find it anymore. But start with that.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Alexis ZahnerStart also in terms of the emotional wisdom piece, just start attuning to the things that make you feel good and the things that don't. I've heard this sort of discussed in a different way, but how often, for instance, if you have a partner and they come home and say to you, what would you like for dinner, Mexican or Italian? And if you're someone who says, I don't know, you choose. Quite often, almost every time, that's a lie. We have an underlying preference. We've just become so used to pushing our own needs and our own preferences down that we'll let other people choose or whatever for us. So just start tuning into when you're asked questions, would you like to do this? Would you like that? Certain people that you're around, how they make you feel. Just start tuning in to that inner world and how certain stimulus is making you feel, because very, very often we're just super detached from our emotions and the messages that they're trying to give us. And then lastly, after we've sort of done a bit of that work, when it comes to the agency piece, when we start getting those inclinations around what feels good, what we might want to do, what does light us up, start to unpack what within that you can make small incremental changes within. So whether it's a shift in career or maybe it's just taking up some hobbies on the side for the meantime that's safe. It's not going to be a drastic change. And just start investing some time and energy in those things that feel good and that you have control over. So that would be where I would say to start. And it feels like I'm sort of suggesting this in a very personalized way, but know that applying this to you as an individual will directly impact how you lead and how you show up in your career and in your workplace. So we're integrated beings. We, you know, we can't separate who we are at home and at work, um, believe it or not. So the more we do this work on ourselves, um, at an individual level, the more it filters through in, in how we lead, um, and how we show up in our career.
Leanne ElliottAlexis just mentioned emotional wisdom there, and after this short break, we're going to find out exactly what it is and if it's different to EQ, a term we've used quite a lot on the show before. See you in a sec. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fail. Host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. Let's rejoin the interview where poor Al tries to get his head around the term emotional wisdom.
Al ElliottSo let's talk about emotional wisdom. So you've, you've mentioned Emotional wisdom is the second pillar. And I really get that. You said your example was just see how you react if you are pushing down your own, your own feelings. If someone says, what do you want, Mexican, Italian? You're not sure. I don't care. We've all met those kinds of people who are always, honestly, it's fine. I'll stay late. Don't worry, I'll do it. How does that improving that make you a better leader? I know altogether it makes you a better leader, but how that specific one, how's that feed in?
Alexis ZahnerIt's a really, really good question. And the answer is for a few reasons it makes you a better leader. Firstly, As an individual, it's not until we attune to our own emotional settings— so what's going on inside of us— that we can actually recognize that in other people and take that discerning action. So becoming EQ— and I mean, this is very rooted in some of Daniel Goleman's work around emotional intelligence, obviously, and his work that was first written, I think it was in the— I want to say 1995. Yeah. Book Emotional Intelligence, seminal work in this space, that we are standing on the shoulders of giants in our work now to speak to this. So that really looks at the idea of firstly understanding our emotions and then managing our emotions. And to quote Viktor Frankl, when it comes to the managing emotions side of things, we have to be able to create space between what we're feeling and how we're reacting as a leader. So again, Something we can never take back in the workplace is how we make people feel. So as a leader, if we're not tuning into our emotions, understanding what they're trying to tell us, and taking that perhaps opportunity to pause before we're reactive in the relationships we have in the workplace, we can actually really damage trust, reliability, our consistency as a leader with the team around us. So becoming aware of our emotions and understanding how to use them effectively actually helps us to cultivate connection in a team setting. Now, whether that be personal or professional, building those interpersonal relationships, it just stems from understanding our emotions and how to use them effectively. I guess the only thing I'd like to add as an endpoint to that is when it comes to topics like empathy, which is all the buzz in leadership development and things like that right now, again, we can't actually offer things like compassion and empathy to others if we aren't attuned to our emotional our emotional landscape within ourselves and actually understand what these sort of things feel like. And again, just to speak to my own leadership sort of tendencies, especially as a younger person, I was just all frantic and all reactivity. And there is a concept called emotional contagion, and that is, as a leader, if we're not monitoring and using our emotions effectively, we are just spewing that into the environment around us. So if we're constantly stressed, constantly reactive, everything's urgent, or perhaps everything's negative doom and gloom, that's exactly what we can expect to reflect back to us in the culture around us. So how we are and how we show up will directly impact the sort of team culture that we're able to cultivate as a leader.
Leanne ElliottDo you know what is funny? A lot of guests that we have on the pod are sports people or former sports people that have competed at very high levels. So, it's natural for them to be very familiar with the idea of a coach and the rounded, full view of a coach. Someone who, yeah, is going to pump them up in the changing room, but is also going to give them the push that they need to get that personal best. In business, often a coach can be seen as someone who's a bit softer, perhaps someone whose job is it to listen and gently guide people towards their goal. But as Alexis explains, this isn't the case.
Alexis ZahnerA leader is often a great coach, and a great coach I think what people mistake is coaching being softer than management, and it's not the case. The difference is with a coach, with any good coach— and again, I've grown up playing football, so I can take direction— but I also have worked with people that rather than micromanage me or give me direction in a certain way, they'll simply support me to come to the answer that it is we need as a group. So it's not about not being explicit. It's not about not having expectations of a team. It's not about not having targets as an organization, but it's about how we go about getting there. And it's a behavioral shift from the people leading those who are expected to drive these outcomes. So rather than, you know, we can have like the team's goal for this quarter is X amount of whatever it may be. That's fine. There are certain processes in place in an organization that we each have to follow to get our day job done from day to day, but it's about understanding what each individual then needs to support them to get there. So I think it's just counterproductive as a leader or as a manager, whatever you want to call yourself, as the boss, to not understand how to empower your team to achieve the objectives you're setting them. So whether you want to call it a manager, whether whether you want to call it a coach or a leader, it's just about understanding what behaviors are required from you to get the most out of people to achieve the objectives that you need them to achieve. It's not about being fluffy. It's not about being mediocre. It's about radical candor, empowerment, and getting the most out of people by equipping them with what they need to do their best work. And there are times where explicit instruction is a kindness to our team. If we're in a short deadline and we need something to happen quickly, it is more unkind to create a lack of surety or a lack of clarity for our team. So sometimes there is time to say, hey guys, this is where we're at. This is what we need done. This is how we're going to move forward with this for the time being. It's not about it all being wishy-washy and everyone having their opinion on every single thing. That's not what it's about. It's about knowing when is the right time and place to employ the right sort of behavior to get what we need from folks. My coach's job is to observe me and witness where I'm struggling and then help me to understand where I'm going wrong. And that's why I said there are times where being explicit is a kindness. Because as a football player, I played center midfield, so if there's a certain player who for whatever reason is getting past me every single time, and as a player I cannot seem to work out what is going on, I want my coach observing me and saying, hey, this is what's happening. If you do this, the outcome will be different. So it's about being observational. It's about giving people, again, the support they need to succeed. So whether that's in a football setting, which is, hey Alexis, if you play to your left wing versus your right wing, it's going to change the game in this way. That's information that I can't see. It's perspective I can't gain from that macro level being in the mix. Likewise, as a leader, if you're observing your team in an intelligent way, you're looking at the interactions of the team, you're looking at how each one of those individual players is interacting together, and you're able to say, oh, I think this is where it's breaking down a little bit. I think this is why we aren't meeting this target, or I think this is why this is occurring in this way. And you're able to say, hey guys, I think this is what I'm observing. This is how I think we can go about rectifying it. Then you're giving that team data to do something about it, but you're doing so from a place of not blaming or shaming them, from a place of radical candor and saying, this is how we can be better. So again, it all comes down to the delivery and the way we go about it as well. When we feel like we're cared for and when we feel like people have our best intentions at heart— my football coach could have said anything to me and I knew she loved me, so I'd take it on board and be like, you know what?
Al ElliottYeah.
Alexis ZahnerShe knows what's best. She's watching me. She wants us to win this game as badly as I do. I'm 100% on board to do what she tells me to do. So yeah, I think that's a great way of putting it. Her name was Sue. Shout out to Sue. She's actually ex-UK military as well. So she came from a really, really hard setting, very used to instructions. And it translated so perfectly into football because she was so passionate and so loving of us girls, but also just had She was just so candid, but in such a kind and firm way that I personally responded really well to it. And she was probably one of the best coaches I've ever had. Not to say we didn't butt heads. There is also conflict that happens. But when you have that level of respect and when you know someone cares about you, you can move through those things in a lot easier way.
Al ElliottNo conversation about leadership is complete without talking about generational differences. I had a sense that Alexis Alexis would have an interesting take on the idea that millennial leaders are different to other generations. And of course, I wasn't wrong. So you talked about millennial leaders. I sense, because I'm Gen X, I sense that there's going to be a difference between a Gen X leader, a boomer leader, and a millennial leader. Are you seeing differences?
Alexis ZahnerYou know, it's such an interesting one, Al. And I would like to say personally, anecdotally, I think that there is some, um, some things that exist across generations. that we can sort of generally say might be the case. However, we've had incredible academics on our podcast, on We Are Human Leaders, that have absolutely schooled me and kicked my butt for claiming that. So we spoke to one woman, Ashton Applewhite, who was just incredible. And she speaks about ageism and how basically the data suggests that these generic groupings of age groups is just utter crap, and she doesn't like it, and the data doesn't empirically back that up. So I would like to say that, yes, I feel like there are some characteristics across age groups that seem to fit fairly true, at least as a millennial leader. When I hear certain things, I'm like, oh, yeah, that resonates. I identify with being that way, or I identify with doing that. But I've had academics absolutely pull me into line for saying that, so I'm kind of torn now, to be honest. What it is more than anything is that we're a product of the environment we're operating in. So in the '90s, when my parents were in leadership roles, for instance, the environment was very different. The legislation around work was very different. We were a single-family household. My mom didn't work; she was a caregiver. So the roles and expectations around women and men were very different, and I just think through time that's changed. So I think more than anything, we begin to absorb what's in our environment, right? And so as a millennial, 20, 30 years on. It's now 2024 and I'm in a leadership position. So what we've sort of learned over the last 50, 60 years, whatever the context is, is just sort of evolving how we lead and the leadership positions we're in today. But if you're perhaps someone who's already been in a leadership position 20 or 30 years and you've got a collection of experiences that you feel work well. We also know behavior change is harder over time. Our neural pathways are harder to change the more and more that we build them in and ingrain them in a certain way. So I think some of these things are just more habitual than they are anything. And I hate to still be a fence-sitter in answering this question, but I really do believe that any age group can be a brilliant human-centered leader. But I do think it takes intentionality, and I do think it sometimes takes us questioning our own core beliefs and the way that we have been. You know, I've worked in local government where the way things are done around here never gets changed just because it's easy, it's comfortable, we know it. And I've seen that come from every age group of leader within that organization, and it's a cultural problem more than it is a generational problem. Um, so sorry, I'm still on the fence, but as a millennial, um, there are things I think that are very stereotypical of me. I'd like to think that some of the younger leaders coming up now are a little more open-minded to some of these concepts. Certainly, as you said, if I'd said something like human leadership even 10 years ago, people would have said that's woo-woo, that's buzz, that's just soft. It's snowflake leadership, whatever the terminology might be. So people are coming around to these concepts now. But yeah, it's a really tough question to answer.
Al ElliottTalking of buzz, is there anything that you are seeing at the moment that everyone thinks is great, but you're like, no, that sounds a bit fluffy or buzzy or bullshitty to me?
Alexis ZahnerYou know, not that there's concepts that I think are too fluffy or buzzy or bullshitty, but I just think there's a lot of misconceptions around what these things mean. Um, I think one of the things that frustrates me more than anything right now, um, with organizations is when they want to engage in things like mindfulness workshops or gratitude workshops and things like that for staff without actually understanding what those things are designed to do, and then sort of using these mechanisms that are proven in science to fix problems that they aren't designed to fix. So a great example of this is burnout, and we do a lot of work with burnout at Human Leaders. My incredible co-director Sally Clark is an And co-researcher of the Global Burnout Study with Dr. John Chan here in Australia. And their research illuminates the fact that burnout is a workplace syndrome caused by chronic workplace stress. So when we get a call-up from an organization saying, hey, can you come and run a mindfulness meditation training to address burnout? These are the kind of things that really get our back up because we serve people, we don't serve companies. So we won't come into an organization and run a mindfulness this workshop to cure burnout in your organization, knowing full well if you're flogging your employees, you're the problem. So they're some of the things that really frustrate me, and often it's from no ill intent from corporations. They just simply don't understand what mechanisms will actually lead to alleviating the pain or the stress that they're experiencing as a business. So I would— if there's nothing else people learn from this conversation, Understand where your root problems are coming from and address those without trying to pull on levers aimlessly, just thinking buzzwords like mindfulness and empathy training and all this are going to fix deep-rooted systemic problems in companies. That's got to be the one thing that drives me crazy.
Leanne ElliottThat is the amazing Alexis Zahner, co-founder of Human Leaders. Also, check out Alexis's podcast. She co-hosts a podcast called We Are Human Leaders. with Sally Clark, who was also on the show previously. They're burnout episodes back in January 2023, I think, but still incredible episodes. Um, check out their podcast, We Are Human Leaders. It is stacked with incredible conversations, huge names in the industry. Amy Edmondson, just to drop one. It's direct. It demands accountability from leaders. It does not pull punches, a new term I've learned today. Um, It's been one of my favourites for a while, and I was very touched to be invited on the show back in April. So do go and check it out. I will leave a link in the show notes. Speaking of incredible women, next time we'll be talking to a very inspirational woman who rose to dizzy heights in her corporate job before unexpectedly quitting to follow her dream.
Al ElliottBut before we go, here's how to find out a bit more about Alexis Zahner and the work she does.
Alexis ZahnerUm, so our website is www.worktruth.com. wearehumanleaders.com. You can check out some of the workshops that we have on offer there. We offer a foundational 3-stage human leadership program. So we deliver this within teams, within organizations, and we take a few cohorts every year of individual leaders through that program. So that really gives you the foundations of everything that I've spoken about today— human leadership. Self-leadership is one of those components. We also talk about leading others in a concept we call radical responsibility. So that's the foundation that you'll learn through that program. Some of our other programs include Burnout Essentials, such as our new program called Renew, which is about preventing burnout in individuals and teams. So yeah, jump on our website, www.wearehumanleaders.com, and that's where you will find myself, my co-director Sally Clark, and all of the work that we do. We're also obviously on LinkedIn and fun things like that as well.
Leanne ElliottThank you again to Alexis. What a brilliant conversation on human leadership, and hopefully, you know, kind of dispelled some of the myths and, and, um, preconceptions you might have had on, on that topic. Um, there's a lot going on at the moment, just thought I'd mention it. The general election in the UK happened last week, may have brought some, some feelings. Um, a very tense evening on Saturday for England fans out there, with another one queued up for Wednesday. Lots of stress and anxiety buzzing around, I'm sure. I will leave, um, as always, some links in the show notes, um, if you do feel a bit under pressure at the minute, need somebody to talk to, want to look at some support services available. And also maybe leave a couple of cheeky links to some of our well-being-focused episodes, including our Burnout episode with the incredible Sally Clark, Alexis's business partner. And let's go with all She has some very good, um, tips and recommendations on mindfulness, keeping ourselves centered during what is likely to be a very stressful Wednesday evening.
Al ElliottYes, so we will see you on Thursday, either related or not, being English fan— England fans, um, and probably not. And we'll see you on Thursday with another episode with the amazing Kate Luzio. So if you haven't subscribed, click that subscribe button, because if you got this far Then you obviously like what we've got. And so you'll like everything else we've got. We'll see you very soon.
Leanne ElliottBye.
Al ElliottWe are— sorry, am I boring you?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Carry on. I feel like our entire intro hasn't Really taking Alexis, you know it's fine. So anyway, Alexis, I've spoiled it. I'm going to start again. Alexis just mentioned emotional wisdom there, and after this short break, we're going to find. It's funny. It's a little bit funny how you can't say the words.