Episode 122 · 19 August 2024 · 46:34

Doomscrolling, Wisdom Work, and What CEOs Eat: This Week in Work, 20th August 2024

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Introduction and This Week in Work format
news roundup#podcast-intro #workplace-news
Doomscrolling and its impact on mental health
news roundup#doomscrolling #mental-health #news-roundup
Wisdom work in a multigenerational workforce
news roundup#multigenerational-workforce #wisdom-work #workplace-culture
Breakfast habits of successful executives
news roundup#executive-habits #breakfast #productivity
Workplace Time Capsule: Tarry's Chip Shop, 1960s Edinburgh
news roundup#workplace-history #1960s #edinburgh #chip-shop
Workplace Surgery: blindsided by a resignation
workplace surgery#resignation #management #workplace-surgery
Workplace Surgery: championing unwanted change
workplace surgery#change-management #leadership #resistance
Workplace Surgery: can people really change?
workplace surgery#personal-development #behavior-change #coaching

Show notes

Doomscrolling, Wisdom Work, and What CEOs Eat

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the psychology of doomscrolling and why it breeds existential anxiety, why Chip Conley thinks "wisdom work" is the next big thing for a five-generation workforce, and the surprisingly varied breakfast habits of top executives. Plus, a brand-new Workplace Time Capsule from 1960s Edinburgh, and three listener questions in the Weekly Workplace Surgery.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Is doomscrolling damaging your mental health? A new study by Reza Shabahang and colleagues reveals how compulsive doomscrolling can increase existential anxiety, pessimism, and distrust in others. Al and Leanne discuss why we get hooked on bad news, how to spot the difference between staying informed and spiralling, and what it means for your wellbeing — and your team's. Source →

2. Why "wisdom work" is the future of the multigenerational workplace Chip Conley's article in Harvard Business Review introduces the concept of "Wisdom Work" — emphasising the importance of experience and foresight in a workplace that will soon include five generations. Leanne and Al dig into how younger generations excel at knowledge work, while older workers bring pattern recognition and human understanding that AI can't replicate. Source →

3. What do successful executives actually eat for breakfast? From Billy Beane's turkey bacon and lettuce wrap on whole wheat to Mark Cuban's egg-free omelette and Chip Conley's homemade green juice, Bloomberg Businessweek surveyed the breakfast habits of top executives. Al and Leanne rate the options — and reveal what the Finnish military apparently fuels up on. Source →

🕰️ Workplace Time Capsule

In our brand-new summer segment, we travel back to the 1960s in Edinburgh, where Tarry's Chip Shop on Manse Road became a pioneer by offering the first-ever fish and chip delivery service. Originally broadcast on January 31, 1963, this segment showcases the early innovations in customer service that have shaped modern business practices — and proves that wisdom work isn't new.

(Got archive footage you'd like us to feature? Email us via the connect link below.)

💬 Weekly Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

Blindsided by a resignation: "I've recently been blindsided by one of my top people handing in their notice — despite competitive pay and flexible working." Al and Leanne discuss why retention isn't just about the package, and how to have honest conversations before it's too late.
Championing unwanted change: "My company is introducing a new piece of software I don't believe in — how do I lead the change?" Advice on finding the information you need, sitting with your own resistance, and leading change authentically.
Can people really change?: "I want to know if I can trust someone who's stolen from me before." The hosts discuss the complexities of trust, redemption, and the risks of second chances — including the famous Frank Abagnale story.

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript

Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you create awesome workplaces and thrive in work.

Al ElliottYes, we are. This is our This Week in Work episode. If you've been listening, then you'll know in August, we're just bringing you 4 or 5 episodes with the This Week in Work on a Tuesday. Then we're back to normal where we have This Week in Work on a Tuesday. And then we have the interview sessions on a Thursday. We have got some corkers for you.

Leanne ElliottOh, I'm not lying when I say we've got some cheddars. Coming your way in the autumn. Get that cheeseboard ready for Christmas, tell you.

Al ElliottWait, just in case anyone doesn't know what you mean by cheddar, we mean big cheese. They're big cheeses. Uh, so yes, we're looking forward to— we're interviewing someone tomorrow who, uh, who, who has met the Queen of England. Well, when she was around, not now. Anyway, moving on. So we have got— we've got 3 segments for you today. We've got the normal news roundup, followed by brand new segment which Leanne invented last week, which I love.

Leanne ElliottThe week before, actually. This is the 3rd time we're doing it.

Al ElliottAnd what's it called?

Leanne ElliottIt's the Workplace Time Capsule. So I'm diving into the archives to bring you a clip, a video clip from the '60s, '70s, '80s world of work for us to listen to, reflect, learn from, um, perhaps be ashamed of our lack of progress as of last week. If you listened, you know. I'm in a better mood today, um, so I'm gonna try and be a bit more upbeat and not dwell on the fact that we're still not training our managers.

Al ElliottSo if you do one thing, you need to train your managers. That's what Leanne's gonna do. We have a whole lot of merch on that. And the final, the final part of this is the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne and she answers them. Shall we start off with your favorite time of the week, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottYes, let's start with my favorite time of the week. Al, it is time for the news roundup. Cue the jingle.

Al ElliottOkay, Lee, what have you got?

Leanne ElliottI don't want to get us off to— on a downer. I just said— I've already said I'm in a better mood. I don't want to get off on a downer, um, but I feel this needs to be addressed. There's a lot of, a lot of stuff happening out there, isn't there, in the news? Um, there's a lot. There's between the riots and the election and the wars, and it's, it's a lot. So I want to kind of refresh ourselves about doomscrolling, and this is because I found probably a very, very well, um, timed article in by the British Psychological Society on this. So doomscrolling, we all know what it is by now, right? It's that habit of endlessly scrolling through the bad news even when we know it makes us feel terrible. And it is easier now than ever. As I said, there's a lot going on. There's the escalating war in Ukraine, the ongoing saga of the 2024 US election, and there have been some shocking riots across England primarily. Um, it's a very anxious and worrying time. So doomscrolling, um, you know, you can see it's keeping up with what's going on. It can seem like a logical activity. Information is power. The more you know, the more you can prepare and plan for the future. But the truth is, it's a pretty unproductive and even damaging activity. So a recent study published by Computers in Human Behavior Reports by Reza Shahbahagh and colleagues sheds some light on just how damaging doomscrolling can be, and not just in the moment, but how it actually shapes our broader outlook on life and human nature. As I mentioned, this is highlighted in a recent article from the BPS's Research Digest. So the research Researchers surveyed 800 university students from Iran and the United States, 2 very different cultures, but did see very similar results. They wanted to understand how compulsively consuming negative content online, or doomscrolling, relates to something called existential anxiety. So this type of anxiety taps into deep fears about death, the meaning of life, and our place in the world. Participants who admitted to frequently doomscrolling reported higher levels of existential anxiety, showing that the habit might be more than just a bad mood. It could actually be altering how we see ourselves in the world. But that's not all. The study also found that doomscrolling can make people more pessimistic and even more mistrustful of others. In the Iranian group of participants, for instance, there was a notable increase in misanthropy— basically a dislike or distrust for other people— and among those who regularly engage, engage in doomscrolling, this was higher. While the link wasn't as strong in US participants, the pattern was still there, suggesting a global impact. Now here's the kicker: while it might seem like the solution is as simple as logging off, it's not always that easy. Doomscrolling can be addictive, and breaking the habit is tough. But I think it's important— it's understanding the potential impact it could have, um, on our mental health is a really important first step in helping us to regain a bit more balance and hopefully a more optimistic perspective. So what to take away from it: doomscrolling, it is more than just a bad habit. It's more just a bad mood. The latest research is showing it's something that can actually shape our mental health and our view of the world and our place in it in profound ways. If you are finding yourself trapped in the cycle at the moment, it may be time to try and step back and log off and reconnect with the good that is still out there. For more insights, I will leave a link to the full study in the show notes. Al, what do you think?

Al ElliottI've got a real-life example of this. We were on holiday last week, so we had basically 10 days off, finished on the Thursday night, came back to work On Monday, just gone. And I was trying not to look at work stuff, and I found myself being drawn into BBC News, particularly these riots around in the UK. And I genuinely was depressed. I don't look at the news normally. I just don't look at the news. Leanne does. I don't, because I do feel depressed. It does affect me quite, quite badly. And I just found myself trying not to think about work, trying not to do work stuff, and replacing it with this. And I was— 2 days, I felt so depressed.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottAnd then I just went back to just ignoring everything and looking at happy dogs on, on YouTube. And I went back to my normal self, my normal happy self. So I'm 100% behind this doomscrolling. I mean, some people say, oh, it's important to keep, to keep abreast of the world. There's a great— there's a guy who wrote The 4-Hour Workweek, Tim— oh, I always forget his surname. You know, you're shouting it already. You know who I'm talking about. And he says that he never reads the news because it's— first of all, it gives you something to talk about when you meet someone. So what's going on in the world? And they'll, and they'll be like, oh, well, this and that and the other. It gives you something to talk about. But secondly, you can then filter out 90% of it and find the stuff which is just going to be relevant to your life. So yeah, I think don't, but replace it with something healthy. That's the other thing is doomscrolling. If you go, oh well, I'm not doomscrolling, then what are you replacing it with? If you're not careful, then the algorithm will reward what you look most at and quite a lot of them are connected. So if you start looking at other stuff on YouTube, for example, which is a bit depressing, then potentially that can serve you more of that.

Leanne ElliottYeah. And I do get, you know, wanting to stay abreast of things. I want to stay abreast of that. I want to know what's going on. It's important for my work. It's important for my profession to know what's going on in the world. But I balance it out with things I follow. So on my news app, I follow, you know, the business channels, the BBC channels, the news channels. I also follow Hello magazine and Grazia magazine and Scientist magazine. So I know that then my feed will be more eclectic, and I'll make sure that I spend time tapping on the lighter things, like what Cheryl Cole has been spotted wearing in London. It's ridiculous, but it's that lighter content that just balances up my feed. Um, so I still know what's going on in the world, But it's not dragging me down with every single story that, that I read. But yeah, some really interesting insights there. So yeah, doomscrolling can potentially cause an existential crisis.

Al ElliottYeah. Just quickly before I go on to the thing that I found, uh, quick shout out to Jeremy Klein. Jeremy has got the Change Life Work podcast. Great podcast. We've been on as guests. It's a really good podcast. But he sent a link to me the other day, uh, to a Pat Flynn, he's Smart Passive Income guy. Um, and he has a chat with, and I don't know how to say the author's surname, So I'll just put a link in the notes, but basically he's written a book called, uh, Interrupt— Distractium— Distractia— check the show notes. Um, and the idea is that if you are gonna be distracted from something, then make sure you know what you're being distracted from.

Leanne ElliottSo what about you, Al? What have you seen this week?

Al ElliottWell, there, there's a guy called Chip Conley.

Leanne ElliottOh, we love Chip.

Al ElliottYeah, Chip, he's, uh, he's written an article in the Harvard Business Review. Just in case you dunno who Chip is, then Chip was the mentor for the founders of Airbnb. be, and the author of loads of books predominantly about making the most of your second half of life. His most famous, famous one I think is called Peak. Um, if you are interested in that, if you are sort of in the second part of your, your career or life, uh, then scroll back and I'll put a link in the show notes, but I can't remember which one it is. But we had Chip's second—

Leanne ElliottKerry Cardinale.

Al ElliottYes, Kerry Cardinale, uh, who works with Chip. It was a great interview about generational and generational outcomes. Anyway, so he wants to talk about a new word which is called wisdom work. Now, most of us will have heard of knowledge work. It was invented by Peter Drucker back in the '70s, and knowledge work describes tasks that rely on expertise or technical knowledge to solve specific problems. For example, someone who's been making the same widget for 20 years is involved in knowledge work because they've got knowledge around the actual creating of it. Wisdom work, on the other hand, goes beyond knowledge. Wisdom work is all about understanding the nuances of human behavior, and someone who has this can actually anticipate future challenges before they've come up. So, for example, using this widget factory, you've got the person who's got the knowledge work. They're the ones who's making the widget and know exactly every single facet of the widget. The CEO of the widget factory may not know how to make the widget, but based on the experience, they predict when the demand will fall or rise, or perhaps foresee problems on the on the horizon. Of course, older workers are much more likely to be proficient at wisdom work because they've been there and they've got the t-shirt. But what I thought was interesting was around this whole idea of younger, older workers, because in the next couple of years, for the first time ever, there's gonna be 5 generations working together in the workplace. So by 2031, employees aged 55 and older will make up a quarter of the global workplace. Workplace. And the work is kind of split into 3 because boomer, late Gen X generations will likely excel at wisdom work.

Leanne ElliottHmm.

Al ElliottThe millennials and younger Gen Xers, which is Leanne and I, will be phenomenal at knowledge work. And then the Gen Z and Alphas, that's the people who are born between 2010 and 2000 and now, and then the Gen Zers, they're going to be good at digital work. In other words, they're digital natives who are translating offline strategies to online strategies. And in most organizations, you actually need all of those things. Because what was interesting was that this report found that teams with an age range of 25 or more, so i.e., The youngest was 25 years younger than the, than the oldest exceeded expectations 73% of the time. I thought that was really interesting. Also, and it's more than likely that older workers can have younger managers. This, this is something which I think back in, I can't remember which study it was, but they predicted that in 2025, 50% of workers will have a younger manager. And so, but you still need these older guys. They may not have the digital skills that Gen Z and Alpha have got, and they may not want to necessarily develop the management skills that millennials and younger Gen Z, younger Gen Xs excel at. But what they have is this wisdom work, which the younger generations don't have.

Leanne ElliottI mean, I'm here for it. Wisdom work. Could you describe it as someone being able to understand and predict human behavior?

Al ElliottYeah, basically.

Leanne ElliottThat's the business I'm in.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottExperience. I know, I get it. It's, it's, but it's based on patterns, isn't it? And you either get that through experience or you get that through, through theory and knowledge. Um, yeah, it makes perfect sense. And I think, you know, there's, there's always going to be these full circle moments where we start to embrace things that from kind of days gone by. And I can definitely see that, that happening as well, a bit of a pushback potentially against some of the technology. Or indeed, you know, as much as we say there's going to be that shift in workers, we're also going to see that shift in consumers. The people with the money are going to be the Xs and, and the older millennials. I think it's really interesting. And I think as well, what I love about Chip Conley's work and this idea of the modern elder is it really is a case of— I'm not sure at what point age became something that we disrespected. You know, when I was younger, my elders were revered. They were the matriarchs. They were the people with, you know, that set the rules and governed the family. You know, we see it in terms of, um, you know, the, the elders of, of indigenous tribes will pass on the, the teachings and, and the lessons and I'm here for bringing back some respect for the older generations, and they're not— that's not just because I'm aging myself and I shall soon be one of the older generations. It's more a case, as you say, this, this wisdom work is so important and, and we can learn a lot from it. And I think maybe I'm appreciating that a little bit more as I start to dive into the archives and see just the same mistakes that we're making. And I just wonder whether it's that double loop learning between the generations that we're just missing, and that's why progress feels, feels a little bit slow over the past Um, couple of decades. But yeah, I'm here for it.

Al ElliottI'm loving that you trailed our second segment just there very, very nicely. Um, and double loop learning. I will raise a glass of— well, I don't have anything, but I will shortly to that. So nicely done. Uh, the link is in the show notes and it's one of those HBR does have a lot of stuff behind a paywall. Uh, but this one I believe is free. So you can actually read the entire thing and check up, check out Chip Conley if you are sort of my age upwards. Modern Elder Academy, I think, is what he's got, and it's a really decent, really decent website, really great program. Lee, what have you seen?

Leanne ElliottWell, after doomscrolling, I thought I would end things on a lighter note. Al, have you ever wondered what the most successful people in the world have for breakfast?

Al ElliottI don't know. I'm thinking of Gordon Gekko. I'm pretty sure he's got some kind of quote about that in the film. No, I don't. Go on.

Leanne ElliottYou don't? Well, I'm going to tell you anyway, because thanks to an article in Bloomberg Businessweek, we've had a glimpse into the breakfast habits of some of the world's most successful executives, and it turns out their choices are as varied as their leadership styles. First up is Billy Hult from Tradeweb Markets.

Al ElliottHello, Billy.

Leanne ElliottHello, Billy. His go-to is a turkey bacon and lettuce wrap on whole wheat, which I think I'm going to translate that into English, British English. Um, so it's going to be turkey that somehow tastes like bacon, Lettuce wrapped on brown bread.

Al ElliottWell, that sounds right. Okay. All right, Billy, I'm not with you, but fair enough. You do you, son.

Leanne ElliottUh, the other thing is Billy doesn't eat eggs. He's with you on this one, Al. Billy has not touched an egg since he was a child. Um, so there you go, skipping the traditional eggs and bacon. Um, if that's your thing, you're in good company with Billy. Next up, we have Mark Gansey of Digital Bridge Group. Mark starts his day with a small oat milk cappuccino. My man, 2 shots, even better, paired with granola, berries, and whole yogurt. Balanced yet indulgent way to kick off the morning. I'm liking the sound of Mark's breakfast.

Al ElliottYeah, go on, Mark, we're with you.

Leanne ElliottBit of me. Then we have Scott Dank from El Catetín. Scott keeps it simple and functional— black coffee and a liter of water to fuel his morning workout. No frills, just hydration and a caffeine boost to get things moving. Then there is Pablo Rivero of Resi Network. Pablo has a diverse palate thanks to his constant dining out, so, um, he's more mindful at breakfast. His weekly staples are yogurt and granola, fruit, or egg whites with toast and turkey bacon. Turkey bacon is a popular choice amongst the American executives. You might need to check this out, Al. Um, but he does crave some things as well, um, and nothing, he says, beats It's an arepa with ham and cheese, a Venezuelan classic. So there you go. I've got one more to finish on. Chip Wade from Union Square Hospitality Group. I mean, this will be interesting. We have also spoken to someone very high up at Union Square, haven't we?

Al ElliottWe have. Go and check out Pat's, uh, Patricia's episode. I will put a link in the show notes.

Leanne ElliottUm, so Chip is all about the green juice, and he makes his own. He blends celery, cucumber, spinach, and ginger, uh, and batches it out on Sundays to last through the week. He also whips up a ginger juice mixed with coconut water, lemons, turmeric, and black pepper. And that sounds better. Um, and if time's tight, then he'll stop at his favourite juice bar on the way to work. So there you go, interesting stuff. It seems like the common themes are caffeine, fruit, and turkey bacon.

Al ElliottYeah, I'm— I'll be honest, Chip, I'm, I'm not really with you, mate. If you want to do— you want to do juices, fine, fine, but that's not for me. There's also the Finnish breakfast from Finland. Which apparently is a cup of black coffee, a cigarette, and a shot of vodka. And that's probably— I might more go for that, I think, Chip. I'm more of the Finnish than I am of the—

Leanne ElliottBreakfast of champions.

Al ElliottWell, they're Finnish. They're fighting off the Russians, so it works for them.

Leanne ElliottWell, there you go. If you're interested, there's a few more in there that I haven't mentioned, actually. So if you're interested in finding out the full breakfast menus of the top 10%, of some of the top 10%, Successful Executives. I'll leave a link in the show notes.

Al ElliottFabulous. And after this—

Leanne ElliottWrite in, what do you like to have for breakfast?

Al ElliottYeah. And also tell us, tell us what you like to have for breakfast and how many people you manage and how well your company's doing. And that way we can start to rank it because it might be that Chip does all these amazing things, but actually Chip's unemployed. We don't know. Maybe Chip's company—

Leanne ElliottI think Chip's all right.

Al ElliottChip's doing all right.

Leanne ElliottYeah, Chip's doing all right.

Al ElliottOkay. So after this very quick break, we are going to be talking to you, bringing you the Workplace Time Capsule, where we look back in the archives, Leanne's segment. And then we've got the wonderful, world-famous Weekly Workplace— you'd think I'd get it right by now, wouldn't you? You'd think you would. We've got the world-famous Weekly Workplace—

Leanne ElliottThe world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery.

Al ElliottThank you.

Leanne ElliottSee you in a bit. Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Leanne ElliottThe audio destination.

Al ElliottBusiness professionals. Seamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as Welcome back.

Leanne ElliottWe are moving on to our Workplace Time Capsule, our new segment and quickly becoming a fan favourite, if I do say so myself. So this week we are heading back, all the way back to the 1960s, 1960s Edinburgh in fact, and the first female Fish and chip shop that delivered to your door.

Al ElliottYes. So 1960s Edinburgh was when my mother was growing up there. Uh, Terry's Chip Shop on the Mance Road in Edinburgh. I believe that you say it was Christophen in there.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I believe so. Yeah.

Al ElliottVery, very close to where my mother grew up. If anyone's listening from Davidson's Mains, then that's where my mum grew up.

Leanne ElliottOh, yay.

Al ElliottUh, so they had a great game-changing solution for the falling football outside of their shop. Jameson Clark heads along to find out more about the future of fish and chips. This was originally broadcast on the 31st of January, 1963. Hello? Hello, Tarris? Mm-hmm.

Leanne ElliottYes, would you please send me 2 chicken suppers, 3 fish suppers, and a carton of peas?

Al Elliott2 chicken and chips, 3 fish and chips, and 1 carton of hot peas. How did you come to start all this? Well, believe it or not, it's all your fault.

Leanne ElliottMy fault?

Al ElliottWhen you started television in Scotland, you gave our trade an awful hit. And we decided— I decided anyway— something has to be done about it. You know the old saying, Mohammed and the mountain, and so on. Well, I thought, if the customers won't come to me, I'll go to them. All right, the phone rings. What happens then? Well, you know what's happened when that phone rings. Somebody's caught short. They've had a visitor, or maybe 2 or 3 visitors, and, uh, they haven't got anything in the larder. Maybe their old man's drunk all the money and they haven't got any housekeeping. However, we take the order and we send it off. Within 15 to 20 minutes, it's on their table waiting for them to eat it. How do you pack it? We have containers for that, of course. We've gone into this quite a bit. We have insulated Container, stainless steel, and these are guaranteed to keep the food hot for at least 4 hours. Well, it doesn't take us 4 hours, it takes us about 15 to 20 minutes, as I said. What kind of food do you supply? Oh, all kinds. Fundamentally, we're a fish and chip shop. Myself, fish suppers, haddock or lemon sole, and we have chickens now, of course, and hamburgers, specially made, our own homemade hamburgers. Sausages, pies, puddings, oh, everything you get in a fish and chip shop. How much does this service cost? Well, I'll give you an example. A fish and chips costs 1 and 9 in my shop if you come for it yourself. Delivered to your table costs you 2 shillings, so it's only threepence really on the price of the fish supper. Only threepence, but you know, lots of people nowadays are saying that fish and chips are becoming very expensive. They say there's about 400 400% profit on chips? If it was 400% profit in chips, I'd have retired 5 years ago. And they're not expensive. It's the cheapest and best meal you'll buy anywhere at the price. And you guarantee to deliver anything like that piping hot? Within 20 minutes of you phoning me up. So your car's always sitting at the ready? The car's at the door there with the engine ticking over. It's as good as Zed Cars any day, I'll tell you that. And as soon as that order leaves this counter, onto the car, it's away, and there's no time lost. Well, if you're watching this on YouTube, then firstly, I think that the people on the phone were actually— that was fake. That was my thought. Also makes me, makes me laugh here, the, uh, the Edinburgh, the very posh Edinburgh accent of the '60s. Hello. Anyway, so that What was interesting about that was the prices. Lee, do you have any idea what, what, how that relates to today's prices?

Leanne ElliottYeah, I looked it up. So what did he say? It was 2 shillings.

Al Elliott2 and 9 or something. Um, yeah, it was 1 9 for the fish and chips and then 2 shillings for delivered.

Leanne Elliott2 shillings for delivered. So in today's money, 2 shillings is about 10 pence, um, which isn't bad for a fish supper when you bear in mind that in 2024 the average price of fish and chips is about £10.

Al ElliottWhich is about $14 US, probably about $20 Australian dollars. And it's funny because they were saying that fish and chips has got expensive. And every, I think every 2 years we always say fish and chips is expensive now.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottI remember we used to be able to buy it for £6 and then obviously our grandparents would be like, well, I used to buy it for 10p.

Leanne ElliottYou used to be able to get a portion of chips for a pound.

Al ElliottDid you?

Leanne ElliottA bag of chips for a pound.

Al ElliottYeah. Do you know what used to annoy me? You'd get, you'd get a cone of chips and it would look like a lot, but actually someone had done some, some maths on it and realised that actually You don't get many chips for that.

Leanne ElliottSo it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, I'm, I'm intrigued to know your thoughts, Al, on, uh, you know, how he said, oh, it's your fault when you started showing the football on the, on the TV. That meant we didn't have as many people coming out past the, past the chip shop. If, you know, we— customers won't come to us, we go to them. Is that just the entrepreneurial spirit? Is that just not changed for centuries?

Al ElliottYeah, I think it's probably someone who Um, someone who understands business, understands that there's a market demand, and rather than sitting there going, oh, I wish they didn't show the TV, didn't show the football on the TV, they'd be like, what can we do about it? And I think that's probably the lesson you can take from that, is that things will change and the business will always change, organizations will always change, and there'll be a number of people who will sit there and lament the change. And they were like, I wish, you know, this is terrible. The worst thing that's ever happened was us getting internet, was social media, was whatever. Whereas there's a whole other number of people who are willing to look at that and go, I see it's an opportunity. It's that whole thing. I don't even know it's true, but supposedly Japanese language, the same word is for crisis and opportunity or something like that. If you are Japanese, please drop us an email and tell us if that's a load of rubbish because it does feel a little bit trite.

Leanne ElliottAnd you know, I think again, we've talked a bit about generations in, in this episode. This is actually an example of the Silent Generation. Um, so this, this gentleman, if you're watching on YouTube, um, does look the— I don't know, he looks over 20 and that's kind of the 15, 15, 20, which would be—

Al ElliottHe looks, he looks like he's about mid-60s, which to be fair, when you adjust, when you adjust for inflation, is probably mid-40s in the, in the 60s.

Leanne ElliottThat's true. But the oldest, the oldest boomer in this town would be, would be kind of, yeah, in their late teens, early 20s. So Silent Generation goes to show all your, your Deliveroos, your DoorDashes, your Uber Eats, that was started in 1963 by a dude who had a fish and chip shop in Edinburgh.

Al ElliottYes, and that's wisdom work in essence there. You can just see it in practice. Anyway, Lee, anything else to add before we go on to our next segment?

Leanne ElliottNo. If you see any archive footage out there that you would like us to include in the show, to chat about, to comment on, then tag us in @TruthLiesAndWork on YouTube.

Al ElliottSo it's now time for our world-famous weekly workplace surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne, are you ready for question number 1?

Leanne ElliottI'm ready.

Al ElliottOkay, so this comes from a manager and they write, I've recently been blindsided by one of my top people handing in their resignation. That's quitting for people who aren't from Britain. I run a successful consultancy and I have a team of 9 who are all integral to the business. I try to pay well and the pay is usually 20% more than the average, and I've tried so hard to create a great workplace. We introduced hybrid working in the pandemic and people liked it, so they now have the option to work anywhere as long as the work gets done. Now, this person was a project manager and seemed really happy, but then last week they gave me 2 weeks' notice out of the blue. I tried to talk to them about the reasons, but they just said it's time for a change. I'm devastated. What can I do to change this person's mind?

Leanne ElliottI'm, I'm sorry. It is really hard when you lose one of, you know, your really important team members. I'm not sure there's anything you can do to change their mind, and I'd encourage you to to maybe think about what good that would really do. This person has gone through a whole process, and the last step of that process was telling you that they're leaving. They would have been thinking about this before, you know, for months beforehand, potentially going looking at different options, potentially going to interviews through recruitment processes. Um, them telling you is, is the, the cherry on top of the I'm leaving cake. Um, so I'm not, I'm not sure there's any benefit of you you know, talking them out of it at this point. There's 2 options. You either take it at face value— it's just time for a change, it's time to move on. That is a valid reason. I'm not sure, do they say how long this person has been with them? Sounds like a few years. It sounds like it was pre-pandemic, so at least kind of 4 or 5 years. That's a really decent tenure to get out of an employee at this, you know, at this point of the world of work. 2 years is about average. I would, I would look more at if you're He said, you know, every member of the team is integral. This is a really difficult shift as your business starts to grow or your organization starts to mature, is that it's really important. Of course, the people in our organization are important, but what's more important at this point of growth is we start to detach the person from the role, the who from the what. You need to understand the roles that you need in your business. The roles are integral to your business. The people are interchangeable. We have people that we value, and every person we value, of course we do.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottBut we value them enough to encourage them to move on to their next career challenge, their next move, the next thing that they want to do. So, we're never going to keep somebody in that role, nor would we want to, for more than 5 years. That becomes stagnant. That's when we start to lose innovation and creativity and growth. So, I think at this point, there's a few processes I'd go through with the help, if you have the means and resources, with a consultant such as myself or HR consultant. Go through in terms of understanding the roles you have within your business, define them really clearly, and the criteria of person, the knowledge, skills, and abilities that you need, so you're ready to recruit should you need to. If you want to take that a step further, you can do something called rolling recruitment, which is where you're always on the lookout. I think they call it quiet hiring now. Um, you're always on the lookout for great talent that could fill these roles. Again, you can work with recruiters proactively to have people in, in some kind of pool, candidate pool, ready for when you need it, so it's not too disruptive. The second thing I'd look at is it sounds like you're doing great benefits. It sounds like you're paying people as much as they can. The thing to understand is how people are thinking and feeling within your business, how motivated they're feeling. You mentioned benefits, you mentioned hybrid policy. You didn't sound potentially confident they either are doing what you want them to do or having the impact on employee behavior that you want or sentiment that you want them to have. Employee insights, running an engagement survey, a culture survey like the RX7, like we offer, to understand how people are currently thinking and feeling, how engaged they are in their work, where their frustrations are. The more we can craft a culture that enables performance and enables wellbeing, enables engagement, the longer people are potentially going to stay. Finally, I'd say it's going to be really important to look at your development process. My red flag here is that you were blindsided by this resignation. Any great manager or leader is never blindsided by a resignation. Because either they know somebody's unhappy, then they know that there's something there that they've been trying to fix or trying to help with and can't, or they know that this person is ambitious and they want to move on and they want to experience different things. I've, I've heard stories of incredible leaders who will actually know that somebody's leaving 3 years in advance because that person wants to go and do something else in their career, and that's the timeline that they have. And the leader will work with them to help them not only thrive in their business but also prepare them for the, the future role they're going to step into in 3 years' time. That's auditing. That's taking it to another level. But if you're invested in your employees' development, their career development and their professional and personal development, then you'll know that they're going to want something different, something new. You'll know that this is coming, and you should know it's coming. Being blindsided is, is the problem. Not that somebody's leaving, um, but it being a surprise. So to summarize, I would say time to mature some of those people and culture processes in your business. Time to Really dive into the culture of your business and the current sentiment, thoughts, feelings, behaviors of your team. And finally, look at your career development, performance development process to really make sure that you're ahead of this, you know what's coming. I'm sure a lot of people would probably advise you to do an exit interview with this member of staff. I would advise you get a third party to do that if the person is willing to participate in an exit interview, you might garner some insights from that as well. I don't think it's going to help you in this particular scenario, but it could help you get some context around some of the employee insights you might get further on. So, if you're desperate to do something with this individual, I think that's the only thing you can do is have a third party have an exit interview with that person. Again, that is a service that we offer, but otherwise, I think it's time to use this as a as a learning point, um, a point of reflection, and a point, um, to really start to mature the people and culture practices in your business.

Al ElliottExcellent answer. I love all that. I love all that. So what's some— was it Virgin, Richard Branson Virgin, who says something like, train them to do something and teach them to stay?

Leanne ElliottTrain them, train them so they can leave, treat them so they don't want to.

Al ElliottThat sounds like perfect advice for you. And also just remember that not necessarily those people who got you here aren't necessarily going to get you There, um, there is a, um, there's a well-known 13th hire point where it kind of— things implode for a little bit from 13 to 25 people because some of the older people resent the new people coming in. And it's just, it's a, it's a tough time to transition. So just bear that in mind. But that was fabulous. I love that. Are you ready for your next question, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottI'm ready.

Al ElliottSo this is— this question is from a manager. So I'll keep this quick. My company is introducing a new piece of software that is vastly different to the one I use. I can see why they want to change things up. This is the leaders, the senior leadership. I see why they want to change things up. The current software is old and clunky, but we all know it inside out. I've been asked to manage the transition, but being really honest, I think the decision is a bad one. How do I champion a change like this and help people to manage the transition when I don't really believe it's a good idea.

Leanne ElliottOh, tricky, tricky, tricky. Change management, it's not my specific area of expertise. I'm sure if you spoke to somebody like Paula Brockwell, she'd have a fabulous answer for this one. Uh, my thought would be you can't be the first barrier to the change, and it sounds like you're potentially positioning yourself as that. My first thought would be go and speak to your leadership team, understand, try and understand a bit more about the change, why it's so important. You said the other software is clunky, maybe it's getting to the point where it's, it's going to become legacy, it's going to be— I don't know, was that what they call it when they discontinue a software? Um, I try and understand a bit more about it and the reasons why. Sometimes what, what can be difficult about change and accepting change is we've— we're told what to do, we're not told— it's not explained to us why we need to do it. And sometimes understanding that why can really help us understand the what, even if we don't necessarily agree with it. If we can see the logic in it, then it can help us accept that change. I would imagine in this type of digital transformation, there should be a really good change management process in place. There should be somebody project managing that change management process. I'd go speak to them as well in terms of what the plan is, what the process is, and where you fit in with that. This is all about having information and having, having been able to communicate it to your team in a more positive way than was clearly communicated to you. But as a manager, it's going to be your job to go and find out that extra information you need to be able to communicate that more, more positively. Um, that's kind of my, my kind of suggestions. I said it's not my area of expertise. I think the thing is, it's one thing that always worked well for me with a, a change, and you never want to be that manager that goes, oh, corporate's making us do this, because you might think that it breeds kind of trust and camaraderie with your team, but actually it just kind of shows that you don't have any influence or control over what's happening.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnd that can lead us to feel a bit insecure. So I think go and find out all the information, then sit down with your team and go, right, this is this is what's happening. I've been told this. I've done some more digging. These are the reasons why I've been reassured we're going to be supported through this process by such and such person, such and such person. This is the timescale for it. What do you think? Is this you know what what the good things? What the bad things? What are the potential barriers? What the red flags? What the frustrations? What the things that are gonna cripple our day-to-day productivity and efficiency. The thing about change is it changes fast. The transition we need to go through is much slower. So, the more priming and prepping you can do to support the actual transition, the psychological transition, the behavioural transition, is going to make the change much easier to accept. And it's often surprising the number of times that you'll go to a team, and I've done it myself, and gone, right, okay, so we're being asked to do this, we're being asked to do that, I find out this, what do we think? Because I'm not entirely sure what I think about it at this point. And someone on the team will go, oh, I can totally see what they're trying to do here. It's because it'll fix this, this, and this, and it'll improve performance here. And someone's going, oh yeah, but you know what would be even better? If we just— if we could build this into the change process as well. That— and all of a sudden, it's this collaborative process. Everyone's involved in change. Everyone has influence, some autonomy over the change, and their buy-in is going to be— Going to be much better, and the change is ultimately going to be— going to be more effective. So, that's my advice at this point. It doesn't really matter what your opinion is on the change. It sounds like this change is happening. The best thing you can do right now, and it sounds like it wasn't done for you, which is frustrating, is to try and execute this change in an effective way. So, yeah, go and find out, go and talk to the leadership team, try and get a better understanding of the why, go and speak to whoever the project manager is in charge of the change, and understand how they're going to work with you and the team to execute that change. And then once you're armed with this information, go and speak to your team, see what their thoughts are, see what their input would be, and see if there's anything that they would suggest to make the change more seamless.

Al ElliottExcellent, excellent advice. Also, maybe go back and listen to episode 116 from a few weeks ago with Hilary Scarlett, who she's basically written, literally written the book on the neuroscience of change. So go back and have a listen to that because I think that will be really useful to you. Okay, Lee, are you ready for your question?

Leanne ElliottFinal question.

Al ElliottOkay, Lee, so this is someone who is a business owner who's writing in. This is all I've got, and you'll see why in a second.

Leanne ElliottOkay.

Al ElliottI want to know if I can trust someone who's stolen from me before. I should just leave it there, shouldn't we? No, let me give you the context. I found out last year that one of my managers was submitting fraudulent expense claims. They only totaled a few hundred dollars, but Naturally, I had to do something. At the time, they told me they were really struggling with debt, and since then I've helped them restructure what they owe so it's more manageable. I gave them a final written warning, but since then they've been one of the best managers in the company, and their team has vastly outperformed all others. I like this person, and I would love to promote them, but the new position would involve much more responsibility and would involve managing large amounts of money. I'm all for second chances, but this is keeping me awake at night. Can I take the risk? Can people really change?

Leanne ElliottOof. Yes, people can really change, but it's always going to be a risk. I think the thing is, is that what— from what you've said, it sounds like this person was struggling, and the things they were struggling with were motivating their behaviour to be deceitful in some circumstances. It's awesome that you responded to this and helped them restructure their debt so that they're in a better into place, and if their performance has been exemplary since, then fair credit to them and to you. It sounds like you've managed this situation incredibly well so that everyone comes out of it in a really good place. I mean, the thing is, again, it's that there seems to be this pattern that we've had in the surgery the last few weeks where these promotion decisions are made on gut feel. Um, if this is a really big promotion You shouldn't be the only person making this decision. It should be a group decision with other members of the leadership team. And really, it's the evidence of, well, what do we know about this person's capability, their skills, their knowledge, their abilities, in terms of how well they're going to do in this new promoted role? And then factor in what's happened with the circumstances. It sounds like a very certain specific set of circumstances that has driven this person to be deceitful in their expenses claims. I'm not too concerned about that being too much of a danger in terms of managing a budget or managing expenses, particularly once they know that they've done it before. Your process is so robust and transparent that they got found out. Um, it seems to me like there's— you've kind of got all the process in place that this wouldn't be an issue anyway, but also this person was under a pressure that they haven't since been under. Of course, something can happen if that pressure comes back, then the same behaviors can, can repeat themselves. Of course, that's a risk. Um, the, the reason you're lying awake at night is you're bringing personal things into this, and any promotion should be objective and of course will include insights into previous behavior and, and previous disciplinary action. But there should be more data points going in there. And without knowing those other data points, I can't really say either way. Um, but it sounds like there's more data here for you to help make that decision in collaboration and consultation, um, with your leadership team and potentially other members of, of the business as well. So that would, that would be my thought. We need to gather some more data to try and make it a more objective decision. I can't comment. on the likely future behavior motivations of somebody I haven't met.

Al ElliottYeah, great answer. And I think also this gives you the opportunity to perhaps put more systems in place. The person who, if you do promote them, they don't— they know what they've done. So if you said you have to sign every single expense off, or say, just so you know, randomly every 4th expense will come to me and I will look at it, then they'll, they'll know why. They'll know why and they'll respect it. The other kind of flip side of this is that when I had my second business, it was a beer delivery company in Leeds. Did yeah, went about as well as you thought it would. But we had about 20 employees, and one of the employees, when I interviewed him, he was a delivery driver, and he looked after basically delivery driver for beer. And so the the idea would be that phone calls would come into the top of the office, we'd prepare the orders, and then they all the beer would be downstairs, and that'd be put together by the drivers and taken off to the actual. people's houses. So it was basically like Uber, but 25 years ago. This guy I interviewed told me that he'd been in prison. He said, look, I just wanna let you know I've been in prison. I said, what'd you go in prison for? He said, I'm not sure whether I was allowed to ask that, but perhaps, but this is going back a long while ago. And he said, well, I used to steal alcohol from a local, a supermarket, like wholesale. He, he was quite a small guy, so he, he used to go in through the fan, the hole where the fans are, stand, open the doors and let everyone else in and steal the alcohol. And he said, is that okay? And I, at my time, I was like, maybe it's not. But then I turned around and I was like, I tell you what, you're a driver, but you're also in charge of stock. And so he was then in charge of all of my beer, all of my stock, all of my cigarettes, everything we sold. And do you know what? The number of times he caught a driver stealing, or he said he's stealing, and I would never have a clue. That was so, so useful and so, so important to me. So kind of think about this in terms of this person, poacher turned gamekeeper sort of idea. This person might actually be the best person to keep in, to promote to someone who maybe they will ultimately be in charge of expenses because they'll know how you do, you put a fraudulent expense forward and they'll spot it before you do.

Leanne ElliottYeah, it's good. You see that in, in things like the FBI as well, don't you? That famous Catch Me If You Can film. Yeah, it's Yeah, I mean, it's always all the same traits on a continuum, aren't they? It's just kind of the skills, it's how you apply them. I think, yeah, I think, do you know what the headline is? I don't even think it's worth kind of going into any kind of psychology of kind of behavior and behavioral change, or even just personality potentially of people who engage in criminal behavior or unethical behavior. Because it— it's in a situation, it's in an organization, and removing that from it— legally, you have an obligation to the people in your business, to this candidate, to your leadership teams, your board, to your investors, to everybody, to make an objective, non-biased hiring decision. Um, lead with that. And then if everything's all even and there's still, there's still some tension, still some I'm not sure points, then, then this becomes, you know, a bigger part of the conversation. But until then, um, you know, lead, lead with the data.

Al ElliottLove it. I love it. Okay, my wife, my life. Anything else that you want to add before we say goodbye?

Leanne ElliottNo, we will be back again next Tuesday for another episode of This Week in Work with the news roundup, with the world-famous weekly workplace surgery, and our brand new summer segment, the Workplace Time Capsule. If you have any news stories, any videos, Any questions, send them in. All the links to get in touch are in the show notes.

Al ElliottFabulous. If you haven't subscribed, then do us a massive favour, click subscribe. And if you want to share on LinkedIn or something, then one of us— gonna be Leanne, obviously— is gonna give you some love if you actually post on LinkedIn saying you enjoyed this episode. You will actually meet Leanne, which is actually the name of her website, meetleanne.com. Anyway, moving on, we will see you next week for another episode of This Week in Work. Have a fabulous week. Fabulous, fabulous week. Bye bye bye. My name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottWe are here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Okay. Here's a secret for the outtakes. Al and I are on holiday next week, so we're recording two episodes. We just gone and got changed.

Al ElliottYou say get changed, I've put a shirt on.

Leanne ElliottI completely changed my outfit, actually.

Al ElliottAnd if you're listening to these outtakes, don't tell anyone the outtakes either, because most people don't— we look at the stats, most people don't know. Just skip back to last Tuesday's episode and, um, go maybe go to about minute 10, and that's when we start talking about it. I thought it was really interesting.

Leanne ElliottDo you not talk about Chip Conley in this one?

Al ElliottOh yeah.

Leanne ElliottI just completely misremembered that.

Al ElliottNo, no, you did. So I'll just do that, do that little bit again then.

Leanne ElliottYou were happy to take over? No, no, kicked off last time.

Al ElliottNo, it's okay. I don't, because I, I, one of those moods, is she? So this is just a small part of the regular Tuesday podcast.