Episode 124 · 3 September 2024 · 48:05

Google’s WFH mistake, Toxic bosses & the psychology behind Pumpkin Spice Latte..? - This Week in Work 3rd September 2024

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The psychology of the Pumpkin Spice Latte and the fresh start effect
news roundup#pumpkin-spice-latte #fresh-start-effect #psychology
Eric Schmidt's outdated views on Google's work-from-home culture
news roundup#eric-schmidt #google #work-from-home #leadership
High-stress jobs and heart health: new research
news roundup#stress #heart-health #research
Fresh Voices: Rob Kalwarowsky on handling a bad boss
news roundup#bad-boss #career-advice #fresh-voices
Workplace Surgery: Encouraging initiative in your team
workplace surgery#initiative #team-management #workplace-advice
Workplace Surgery: Politely declining extra tasks
workplace surgery#declining-work #boundaries #workplace-advice
Workplace Surgery: Socialising with your boss
workplace surgery#socializing #boss #workplace-relationships

Show notes

Google's WFH Mistake, Toxic Bosses & the Psychology Behind Pumpkin Spice Latte..?

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) kick off September with a bumper edition: why Eric Schmidt thinks Google's hybrid work model cost it the AI race, the "Fresh Start Effect" behind the Pumpkin Spice Latte phenomenon, and a startling new study linking high-stress jobs to heart problems. Plus, a brand-new segment — Fresh Voices — featuring Rob Kalwarowsky's TEDx talk on handling a bad boss. And in the World-Famous Weekly Workplace Surgery: encouraging initiative, saying no without the guilt, and whether you should ever socialise with your boss.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Why does the Pumpkin Spice Latte make us so happy? Leanne digs into an INC. article by Nick Hobson exploring the "Fresh Start Effect" — why seasonal landmarks like the return of the PSL tap into our psychology so powerfully. It's not just the sugar; it's the temporal shift, the ritual, and the clean slate. Source →

2. Eric Schmidt blames Google's hybrid work model for losing the AI race Google's former CEO caused a stir by claiming the company's flexible working culture is why it lost its edge in AI to startups. Al and Leanne unpack the "hustle culture" debate, the KPMG study on productivity, and whether Schmidt's comments are fair — or just a billionaire's nostalgia. Source →

3. High-stress jobs are a heart health risk A new study from the University of Quebec found office workers in high-stress jobs are 97% more likely to develop atrial fibrillation — a condition that can lead to strokes. Leanne notes it's not groundbreaking science, but a stark reminder that workplace stress is a physical health issue, not just a wellbeing tick-box. Source →

🎤 Fresh Voices: Rob Kalwarowsky on Handling a Bad Boss

New for September — a segment spotlighting emerging thought leaders. This week, Rob Kalwarowsky shares his TEDx talk, "How to Handle a Bad Boss," and the deeply personal story of his passive-aggressive boss and the toll it took on his mental health. Three takeaways:

Toxic leadership is a health crisis, not just an HR issue.
Toxic bosses aren't always overtly abusive — subtlety can be just as damaging.
There are practical strategies for handling different types of toxic bosses.

Watch Rob's full TEDx Talk: TEDx Talk Connect with Rob on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robkalwarowsky

💬 Weekly Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

Initiative: "How do I get my team to take more initiative instead of relying on me for every decision?"
Saying no: "How do I decline extra tasks without looking unhelpful?"
Boundaries: "Should I socialise with my boss outside of work?"

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript

Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I am a business owner.

Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplaces.

Al ElliottWelcome, welcome, welcome to September, everyone.

Leanne ElliottYeah, how did that happen, eh?

Al ElliottWe're back with the full lineup. That's 2 episodes a week from now until Christmas. If you're new here, then on Tuesdays like today— that's today's Tuesday— we do an informal episode with just us 2 where we round up the latest in the world of work. We have a mystery segment that Leanne often springs on me, and the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne.

Leanne ElliottYes, and on Thursday, our expert interviews are back, and we are kicking off with quite, quite the sweet treat. We will be joined by Edward Williams, CEO of Candy Kittens. If you're in the UK, you probably already know, you probably already tried their beautiful little watermelon goodness. Um, if you don't know, he's also— his business partner, Jamie Lang, Off of, uh, well, off the telly really. The Only Way Is Essex, other various things he's done.

Al ElliottAnd have I got it right that Jamie Lang is the McVitie's heir?

Leanne ElliottYes.

Al ElliottYeah, his grandfather invented McVitie's. So if you like biscuits, if you like a digestive, if you like a lot of chocolate in your biscuit— oh no, that was, that was, that wasn't McVitie's, was it? Sorry about that. Sorry, Jamie. Sorry, sorry.

Leanne ElliottSo yes, we will be, we'll be bringing you our interview with Ed Williams this Thursday. Definitely Definitely worth tuning in for some interesting questions and conversations around, um, about in-office work.

Al ElliottTalking of sweet things, it's your favourite time of the week, I think, isn't it?

Leanne ElliottIt is, it is my favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup. Al, cue the jingle.

Al ElliottOkay, Le, what have you got first?

Leanne ElliottWell, it is the first episode of September. I'm wearing black to mourn the end of our Brat Summer. It is over. And as the crisp air of autumn begins to settle in, there is a change change in the air, and not just in the weather, but how we feel, what we crave, and how we behave. If you have noticed a sudden urge for something warm and spiced, you are not alone. I came across a perfectly themed and timed article by Nick Hobson in Inc. that sheds light on the psychology behind one of the most popular autumn obsessions: the pumpkin spice latte, or PSL if you will. Al, have you ever had a PSL?

Al ElliottUm, I wanted to say something rude then. No, I, I don't think I ever have, and I don't think I ever will.

Leanne ElliottI think I did once. I wasn't a big fan, more of a gingerbread girl myself, but even then, only rarely, only rarely. I'm a flat white, I'm a, I'm a basic bitch. But Starbucks has just dropped the Pumpkin Spice Latte very early, August 22nd. I say just dropped, it's been out for about 10 days now. Um, it is the earliest they've done it. Why? Well, did you know that Starbucks in the UK alone sells over 20 million pumpkin pumpkin spice lattes every season.

Al ElliottThat's a lot of coffee.

Leanne ElliottA lot of pumpkin. Um, so yeah, it's, um, it's a popular drink. It's more than popular, it's a phenomenon. But it's not just about the taste, it's about what the pumpkin spice latte represents. As summer winds down and we move into autumn, there is a psychological shift known as the fresh start effect. This is when we feel more motivated to set new goals and embrace more challenges, whether it's heading back to school, ramping up work, or simply shifting gears as the seasons change. Um, yeah, this article highlighted that the fresh start effect is here. So according to the fresh start effect, these temporal landmarks like the start of autumn provide a psychological boost that makes us feel more capable of tackling new challenges. We see it as a chance to leave behind any past failures or setbacks or too many gin and tonics and start fresh. This isn't just about a change in routine though, it's a psychological reset. So when autumn rolls around, we don't just pull out our warmer clothes, we also start thinking about new goals. And what's really interesting is this will also be happening in the southern hemisphere, but kind of a flip side of it. When you start to go into summer, you might be thinking about, I might go to the gym a bit more, get that, you know, hot girl summer, hot guy summer, hot person summer, whatever the kids on TikTok are talking about now. Um, so yeah, maybe it's picking up a new hobby, maybe it's changes in our personal lives. But the fresh start effect does explain not only why you might be feeling a surge in motivation right now, but why you also might be craving that pumpkin spice latte.

Al ElliottAnd I didn't know about this, but this is basically what we've done here. We've had all, as you know, most of August off, just done the pod on a Tuesday, um, and we've set aside the next 2 days to sit down in what we call a proper like summit, which is really just Leanne and I sitting down eating crisps and drinking pop. But we're going to work out what we're going to do for the, for the remaining quarter of 2024. So yes, it's 100%, this fresh start effect. I think you get it probably January and you probably get it around about September.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I think, and as I say, it's that, those temporal shifts, isn't it, in, or landmarks as it says. So yeah, I think, I think maybe the beginning of summer there might be one as well, or spring. Spring, you sort of feel that, that shift in energy, don't you, from kind of the dark nights when the clocks go forward. Do we not all have more energy? Is everyone on an evening walk on the 1st of April? Because you can, it's light.

Al ElliottIt's true.

Leanne ElliottSo yeah, so yeah, it'd be interesting to know what, what you have planned, listener, for your, uh, your little autumn sprint, or indeed if you don't have anything at all, let us know. So I will leave a link to the original article in the show notes. Al, what have you got?

Al ElliottGoogle is in the news yet again, and it's their ex-CEO who's been a bit outspoken. You might remember his name, Eric Schmidt. I'd like to call him the boomer's boomer. He left Google in 2020, but a recent Stanford lecture where he was a guest, he couldn't help but have a go at the work-from-home culture at Google. Now, this professor— I'm gonna have a go at this, Eric— Professor Erik Brynjolfsson. Have I got that right, Erik? Look forward to your letters. He asked Schmidt why he thought Google had lost the lead in AI, artificial intelligence, to startups like OpenAI and Anthropic. And Eric gave this answer. Google decided that work Yeah. Work-life balance and going home early was— and working from home was more important than winning. And the reason startups work is because people work like hell. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but the fact of the matter is, if all you all leave the university and go found a company, you're not going to let people work from home and only come in one day a week if you want to compete against the other startups. I imagine that my co-host and wife is going to have something to say about that in a second. Eric Schmidt led the company for 10 years, but that was back from 2001 to 2011. So bearing in mind that was a long time ago before the pandemic, and also when Google was growing like extra mentally, extra mentally, extra, extra excrementally, excrementally.

Leanne ElliottThat's how we do it. Exponentially.

Al ElliottThat's the word. Exponentially year on year. So back in 2011, he handed over the reins to co-founder Larry Page. Since then, Google has worked hard to improve their workplace culture, and following the pandemic, work from home became relatively normal. But Google still insists on 3 days a week in the office, meaning it's firmly hybrid and not what Eric is alluding to, which is that everyone just stays at home and tickles their pickle. Since Schmidt's comments— since Schmidt's comments went a tiny bit viral, he's backtracked a bit, but you get the feeling that he's kind of covering his backside rather than actually clarifying where he stands.

Leanne ElliottEric still have shares in Google by any chance?

Al ElliottI reckon he probably does, and he may have shorted them.

Leanne ElliottImagine Larry going, Eric, dude, No.

Al ElliottSorry, Larry. Sorry. Sorry. Now, this is on the back of a recent KPMG study which found that only a tiny minority of CEOs think like Schmidt, and they believe that a 5-day onsite workweek is a thing of the past. But like your granddad and his casual racism, I sense this won't be the last we hear from Schmidt around these kind of, kind of old-fashioned thoughts. Talking of thoughts, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottI'm sure maybe it's part of some kind of media training that That maybe, maybe we need Al. But it's like finding that, finding that, that meme moment, isn't that clickbait moment, that like that soundbite that's gonna get you in the news and get you going viral. Um, because I don't, I don't think he's talking about the work from home thing here. It's like that's a late scapegoat for any organization that isn't performing as well as they used to. Startups, a startup world is a very different thing to Google. You're not talking even like an established tech company. You're talking about Google, one of the biggest, if not the biggest, tech companies in the world. It's a country. There are countries smaller than Google. Do you know what I mean? You're not going to have the same innovation, startups, scrappiness, and culture as you are in, in a smaller startup. And we'll see OpenAI go through a similar journey if they continue to grow. It's why a lot of organizations choose to stay a certain size and not grow anymore. It's why we see a lot of founders Start a business, grow it, sell it, leave, do it again because that's a bit that they they love. So I don't think you can you can blame working from home for Google not being as innovative as as a private equity backed incubated tech startup because there's also going to be twenty times more that have failed and Google has won out over them. So I don't think that's even the issue. I mean, it comes to the research, doesn't it? And there's conflicting research because we're still. Exploring what hybrid work means, and it's only by doing longitudinal studies over a period of time we're actually going to going to see what science comes through. So far, it's conflicting how useful hybrid is for innovation. Some research that came out recently does suggest that the ideation does decrease, collaboration does decrease when working remotely. Other research has shown that it's about intentionality. So yes, you come into together for certain periods of time, whether it be one day week or one day month. But with the attention that's for ideation, creativity. There's other research that's found that actually people have more unique ideas through brainstorming it as an individual and then bringing those ideas to a collective meeting, because you're not getting the groupthink, you're not getting the influence or the, oh no, I don't wanna say my idea 'cause it'll sound stupid now. So, there's lots of research coming out. So, we don't really know how it's gonna impact it. I think it ultimately, it's gonna be, it depends, it depends on the context, Yeah. The company, the industry, the intention behind it. Um, but I, I don't think remote work is, is responsible, um, for Google not being ahead in the innovation stakes against scrappy tech startups. I'm not sure it's that simple.

Al ElliottSo we look forward to what you're going to say next, Eric. Um, sorry, we sound like we're picking on you. We're not, but it did seem a little bit of a silly thing to say, um, and just very boomer-like. So be less boomer, be less Eric. Leigh, I believe you've got something else for us.

Leanne ElliottI do. Well, I think it— I mean, I guess the, the idea of, of, of, you know, hustling to, to win, um, leads us nicely into a new study that's recent— recently been published looking at the links between stress and heart health. So a study conducted by researchers at the University of Quebec has found that office workers, office workers with high-stress jobs are 97% more likely to develop atrial fibrillation, a condition that causes irregular heartbeats and can lead to strokes. So this isn't just about feeling a bit overwhelmed. The long-term effects can be life-threatening. This study followed nearly 6,000 white-collar workers in Canada over 2 decades. Big sample. Longitudinal study. In terms of some good data, this is good. It's two good things there. So these workers regularly filled out questionnaires that measured their job strain—things like heavy workloads, tight deadlines, and whether they felt adequately paid or praised for their efforts—and the results were very clear. Those with high job strain who also felt undervalued were nearly twice as likely to develop atrial fibrillation compared to those in less. Stressful jobs. What's even more surprising is that a high salary didn't offer much protection. So workers with high-stress jobs who were also paid well were still 83% more likely to develop this condition. So it's not just about the money. Feeling pressured and underappreciated at work has serious consequences for your health. So the study's lead author, Dr. Xavier Trudel, highlighted the importance of flexible working and relaxed deadlines. He emphasized that these measures aren't just nice-to-haves, they're crucial for preventing serious health conditions. So Trudell's research suggests that employees need to take psychosocial stresses at work seriously and make organizational changes to foster healthier environments. Fun fact, actually, in the UK, if you employ anyone, you have a legal obligation under the Health safety executive to assess the psychosocial risk factors in your organisation every 12 months. Big fancy word— basically the environment, the psychological relationship factors that can impact our stress levels. And also, if you have 5 or more employees, you have a legal obligation to make that data available to your employees. So if you're an employee listening and you work in an organisation with 5 or more people, you should have been given access to the data around the current stress levels within your organisation if you're in the UK. If you're also listening as a leader going, huh, I'm not doing this, what? Don't panic. It's really— it's a really, really easy problem to solve. Just go to the HSE website, explains it all there. Drop me an email, I'll leave links, we'll figure it out. So yeah, I thought it was really interesting research. Um, it said longitudinal, big old sample. Physical data is always a bit more compelling than psychological data, believe it or not. I think, I think it's an interesting thing, and I think it's why people are quite Rightly pushing back against hustle culture. Because yeah, you might work hard and hustle, Eric, and win, but you'll be dead by the time you're 55. How old is Eric?

Al ElliottI think he's in his 70s.

Leanne ElliottAll right, old exception.

Al ElliottThis all makes perfect sense. And it's anecdotally, we've seen it because we've seen the anti-hustle culture now. We went through a period of maybe 20 years ago, the whole Gary Vee thing and saying, right, you need to crush it, you need to be working 29 hours a day, working from your car and all that kind of thing. And now not many people are really bullish on that, on that idea, very much so that we've kind of gone around the other way. And I think it's a good thing. And I think this study is— people like you, Lee, it's great because you can bring this study to people like me who would never sit through and trawl through a longitudinal— we don't even know what longitudinal study means. We'd never sit through, trawl through the research, whereas you've done it for us and You've summarized it perfectly. So yeah, all really good.

Leanne ElliottLet's be honest, it's not it's not groundbreaking research. It's not the first research that has linked stress to negative health consequences to do with the heart, to do with the mind, to do with with cancer even has been shown. There's so much, but it is the latest in in a continually growing body of research. So yeah, if your employees are focused on stress, quite right, their physical health. quite literally depends on it, and you have a legal obligation in the UK to do something about it. So yeah, there we go.

Al ElliottAs Leanne said, if you are terrified, if you hear about that legal obligation, you're terrified, don't worry, it's really— even I could set it up. So just get in touch with Leanne or check the show notes, there'll be some links in there to help you out. Lee, I believe we've got a new segment for September.

Leanne ElliottYes, I have a new segment for you for September. We'll be doing this all through September, so every week, every Tuesday now in September, I'll go as a secret segment. I don't know what he is. He does, because our segment for September is called Fresh Voices, where we will be showcasing emerging thought leaders, researchers, speakers, maybe even more established people, but anyone with a fresh idea that is challenging ways of working and inspiring new ways of thinking. So to start us off, we have someone who has been on the show before, a name you might recognize Rob Kalvarovsky. Rob recently delivered an incredible TEDx talk titled How to Handle a Bad Boss, and it is packed with so many incredible insights, incredible personal stories and experiences, and practical advice that we can all relate to. Um, before we dive into, into our thoughts on it, let's listen to a small clip and a very powerful moment from Rob's talk where he shares his struggle with a passive-aggressive boss and the toll it took on him. Trigger warning here, this clip does include references to mental health challenges and suicide.

Al ElliottWhen I started working, I thought I had it all. Played on a junior national team, went to MIT with— got a mechanical engineering degree. My first job in mining, I saved my company millions. I thought I was on the fast track to success, to happiness, but then it all came crashing down. My boss was passive-aggressive, constantly flipping from, we've— you can figure it out, to, we've always done it this way. Unclear, uncertain. Nothing I did was ever good enough. Some people might walk away from this. I turned in on myself. I didn't know it, but I'd spent my life craving recognition and validation from teachers, coaches, to my parents. It was my survival strategy, the mask I wore for the outside world. Reliable Rob. I had no idea who I was under that mask, and I wore it for so long I convinced myself this is me. Day by day, my manager ground me down. First, he made me question my choices at work and my purpose, and whether my life itself had any meaning. Depressing, right? I didn't even know I was depressed. I just felt like nothing was right. So I did the only thing I knew. I worked out. I swam, lifted, biked, ran, got shredded. My first mask crumbled, so I grabbed another one. Didn't work. And in 2023, In 2013, 6 months after this picture was taken, I tried to take my life. Yeah, Rob's just such a fantastic speaker, and his honesty about his experience really kind of drives home why addressing toxic leadership is so critical. Now, there's sort of 3 key highlights from that little segment that we think are worth discussing a little bit further. The first one is this impact of toxic leadership on mental health. Now, Rob's personal story just reminds us that toxic leadership isn't just an HR issue, it's a health crisis. See, when we tolerate or ignore bad management, we're putting lives at risk. Rob's experience shows how deep the damage can go when you're working under someone who undermines your self-worth. Possibly, I mean, I don't have the stats for this, but possibly worse for male workers than female workers. I don't know. Something to discuss another day, I think. And the second myth. are, is that this stereotypical bad boss is an overly abusive boss or someone who shouts at you, whatever. He actually points out quite rightly that there are many destructive bosses who are a bit more subtle. They're a bit more passive-aggressive. And these leaders might not sort of scream or bully at you, but their behavior can still create a really toxic environment. And that's going to ultimately erode your confidence and your happiness. And thirdly, There's strategies for dealing with different types of bad bosses. This is where Rob goes much more into this, into the entire talk. So you need to go and listen to the whole thing. But he doesn't just identify problems or tell you stories from his own life. He also offers solutions and strategies for handling various types of toxic bosses, or asshole bosses, he likes to say. They like, from setting boundaries with passive-aggressive leaders to knowing when it's time to leave an abusive situation. This is all genuinely practical advice that anyone struggling with a difficult boss can apply.

Leanne ElliottAnd anyone who is currently a manager should listen to. I think that's a really powerful thing from Rob's talk. As you said there at the beginning, Al, it's not those very overt, what we'd probably call more bullying-type behaviours, that it's not— they're the only ones that are toxic. It is the more, more subtle and passive-aggressive and consistent um, microaggressions, we'd call them in literature, that can be equally as damaging over time. Um, it's a, it's a great talk. It's, it deservedly is a TEDx talk. It's everything you want a TEDx talk to be. It does deal with some quite heavy themes, but as I said, there's some really practical advice as well. So if you are currently working for a crappy manager, if you are a manager and want to, want to kind of sense-check your own behavior and, and be better, um, then Rob's TEDx talk is a great place to start. Rob is also a phenomenal coach and also has a phenomenal podcast, so I will leave the links to all of those things in the show notes.

Al ElliottFabulous. So after this very short break, we have got the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your question to Leanne. Do not go anywhere or I'll come and find you.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— yeah, yeah, and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good episode. good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back to the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist. She's— she knows what she's talking about, so she's definitely the right person to be asking.

Leanne ElliottSometimes I let the side down. Isn't that right, Steve?

Al ElliottIf you— if you don't know what Leanne's talking about, flip back to last Tuesday's episode where we got a little bit of— a little bit of trolling on YouTube where someone suggested that Leanne let the side down. I felt quite good about that because he didn't say, I'll let the side down. It just felt like I was steaming ahead, doing a great job. Yeah. And then Leanne ruined it all for me. Yeah. Are you ready for your choice?

Leanne ElliottI'll try not to ruin this for you too.

Al ElliottWell, you just interrupted me, so you have. Okay, so this person writes, I'm in a bit of a bind here. I'm a business owner and I've noticed that my team keeps coming to me with every little issue instead of trying to solve problems on their own. It's not that I don't want to help, but it's getting to the point where I'm being pulled in 100 directions every single day. How can I get them to start taking more initiative and stop relying on me for every decision? Should I be offering training or maybe set up guidelines for when they should come to me versus when they should handle things on their own? I want to make sure they feel supported and of course avoid expensive mistakes, but feel capable of handling more on their own.

Leanne ElliottHmm, this is a tricky one without knowing a lot more about you, the company, the team, how big it is, what what industry you work in, what is the risk factor associated with the wrong decision from the team being made. So, I'm going to have to speak quite generally about things without knowing the specifics. I think there's usually, in terms of talking practical things you can do, there's a few things you can do to kind of start to ease how much people are coming to you. First is how you handle when somebody messes up.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnd how you respond to that and the severity of that. It might be that they're bringing everything to you because you've reacted fairly negatively in the past, and they're afraid of the same thing happening again. So, there might be something here in terms of how you handle when things go wrong. I mean, the other thing to think about is, again, keeping it on you for a second, is some kind of of coach-manager training for you. It sounds like you want to enable people. Um, it sounds like you're not entirely sure how. This— and this might, this might be a complete assumption, might be completely wrong— my sense is that you maybe, you are a founder, business owner, um, who doesn't necessarily have a background in people and culture or even management necessarily, but has found themselves as an accidental MD with a team that they now need to, to empower rather than supervise. So, with that, it's developing your skills to do that. I mean, it's a really simple thing, isn't it? I think, Al, you've quoted this reference before as well, but it's saying, if people come to you with a problem, you're not allowed to come to me just with a problem, you also have to come with 2 or 3 solutions. That is actually, again, you want to manage that very carefully because you don't want them to feel that they can't come to you if they don't have a solution, so then they just don't say anything. I think, um, but it's that type of coaching-type relationship you're building with them because, because then it's, it's, it's having that conversation around what the solution could be rather than necessarily them coming to you saying, I don't know what to do. Finally, I think it's, it's looking at maybe the job roles that people have and the autonomy they have with it within them. I'm always going to be inclined to do some kind of employee insights because we're going to find out so much richness of data and information to know exactly what's happening on within the relationships. My sense is people are probably feeling a bit of a lack of role clarity in their roles, a lack of autonomy in their roles, a lack of trust potentially in their roles. Exactly where and why is going to require some investigation, some discovery, some unpicking, and employee insights such as the RX7 that we offer is a really good way to do that. Similarly, is there a manager between you and, and the person in the team? Is it time to have a manager between you and that person in the team? Again, that's going to require some the deep discovery work into the roles you already have within your business, where you want to put that new resource in, what it's going to do, what it's going to look like. That's what we call job analysis, which is— I know can sound over-formal, but equally it's having this clarity through a job analysis process that's going to remove the ambiguity that means people are coming to you all the time with questions. So I think if, if, if you want to fix it overnight, that's going to be really hard. This is much of an operational as it is a cultural problem, and this is going to need some time and assessment. And by time and assessment, I probably mean like somewhere between 4 to 12 weeks to kind of investigate and have a solution in place. So I would say think about investing in, in yourself, your own development, how you respond when things go wrong, and how you coach your team to solutions. Second, I would look at running some kind of employee insights to, to figure out what relationships are breaking down. It feels like your team are currently very dependent on you, so it's how we We'd build them to be more independent. And then finally, it's looking into something around roles and structure within the organisation to free up your time to more potentially value-add activities. So yeah, it's a tricky one because it is, it's this cultural relationship operational conundrum that you have at the minute, and that's going to need some unpicking to know exactly what the right solution is. So yeah, I'm afraid that doesn't sound very very practical in terms of this is how you solve it. But I think what I would say is this is a fundamental, potentially, point of your business where how you handle this is gonna, gonna define what your organisation looks like going forward and your role within it. So, it's— when you think about it like that, it's worth investing a bit of time to figure out what's going on.

Al ElliottGreat advice. There's a psychology behind it. Um, a little bit of practical advice, which is, again, this is with A, um, with a warning that I'm not a psychologist, nor am I an operations, um, expert. But some— it's a great book by Derek Sivers called Anything You Want. And in that, what he started doing was when people kept coming to him with questions, um, he would stop everyone and he'd say, right, this is the question. And then he would say, this is how I want you to deal with it. And then he'd get someone to write that down in a book, and then everyone carried on with their work. And he said, because you felt like you were, you were dealing with the questions as they came up, That helped. Now, I don't know necessarily that's going to be the greatest solution because, as Leanne's pointed out, if you make someone who maybe doesn't want to stand up in front of everyone ask a question, you make them stand up, they're not going to do it. So perhaps you can look at a slightly more modern solution and try and start a company wiki. And then when someone's got a question, they write it in the wiki. That wiki is basically just a big notepad which you can search. Now, Wikipedia is a wiki and you can Potentially, you can potentially write down the problem, and then either that afternoon you can record an answer to it, maybe to the video, or you can use something like Loom, which is a great thing to record your screen. Or you could just say, right, okay, write down your questions, and at the end of the day, we'll have the last half an hour. We'll just— I'll read through the questions and how I would deal with them. I think there's lots and lots of ways you can practically fix this, but don't do any of that until you've done what Leanne says. Because it sounds to me like, like Leanne says, it's much more of an endemic psychological issue in the actual teams than it is just how do I stop them from coming to you?

Leanne ElliottYeah, it's good. And it's good. You know what, that, that's what might be useful for you to do and for you to take on some of this responsibility is to maybe just keep a log of the types of questions that people come to you with. Are they process? Are they operational? Are they creative? And it's maybe understanding if there's a theme in that, it might give you some clues just for you as to where the challenge lies. If they are very process-driven questions, then yes, something like a wiki would work perfectly. If they're more around client-based decisions or creative decisions, then, then this is where there's some autonomy lacking. Um, so yeah, keeping track of the types of questions that you're asked might give you some, some early clues that, that you can then take to a consultant. Um, as you, as you look to dig a bit deeper.

Al ElliottFabulous. Okay, Lee, I've got a rather bit of a sad one for, uh, for question number 3.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottI know, but I think it's an important one that I think we need to, uh, need, you need to give us an answer to. Okay, so question number 2, Leanne. I've been feeling completely swamped with work. The thing is, my teammates keep handing me extra tasks and I'm struggling to keep up. I want to say no, I've got enough on my plate, But I don't want them to think I'm not a team player or that I don't care about the work and the deadline. Is there a way to very politely and respectfully decline taking on these extra tasks without coming across as unhelpful or aloof? Bit of extra information. Apparently there is a performance review coming up with a manager, and this person is a little bit concerned that if it goes to the manager, the manager is going to think they can't do the job and they, they will just get rid of them.

Leanne ElliottIt's really hard to say no. And particularly, you know, we do have this, this tricky thing with being people pleasers. We want— most of us want to, to say yes to people and not say no. Saying no is hard. But it's getting to the point now where saying yes all the time is having a really negative impact on, on your sense of wellbeing, your stress levels, and over time, probably your performance.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottSo, I think this is really about having a bit of a moment of self-preservation and self-prioritisation. The first thing I would do is to kind of, just to kind of bring you some kind of clarity, is just write down everything you need to do and at what point you need to do it by. And I don't know what your job is. I don't know if it's quite task-based, whether it's project-based, but just have an idea of what you've got on, when it needs to be done by, and realistically, the number of hours you're going to have to put into it to get that stuff done. My feeling is that once you've done that, you're going to realise how overstretched you are and actually how you might already struggle to do the work that you've got in. So, don't panic if that's the case. This is all about gaining clarity over what you've got in. What that's going to do is it's going to give you some data, it's going to give you some logic to say to your colleagues, I'm sorry, I can't do that. Mm-hmm. Because I've got X, Y, and Z on at the moment. But you know what? Once this project is done on Friday, come chat to me again on Monday. I might have a bit more capacity for you. The thing is as well, if this isn't your job to do it, you're well within your rights to just say no and just politely say, "I'm sorry, I don't have the time." Have you asked the manager if somebody else can help you with that? Have you asked somebody else in the team if they can help you with that? You're gonna have to. Basically learn to say no. And there's no real nice way to say no when someone wants something from you. They're still going to be irritated by the fact you said no. So the only thing you can really do is, is cushion it, cushion it for them and cushion it for you. You by knowing it's the right decision for you based on your current work and your current wellbeing, and cushion it for them by, by helping them maybe pursue other options of avenues of help that they might be able to look at. Ultimately, I'm a bit let down by your manager at this point because I'm surprised they haven't noticed something. I'm surprised they haven't picked up on this. I'm surprised that it's standard behaviour that people are giving you extra work without your job role. I would always encourage you to go and try and have a conversation with your manager if you can to say that, you know, just to clarify what your role is. Just, and you don't have to name names. You don't have to say, oh, you know, Jennifer keeps giving me this and Fred keeps saying this. Just kind of go, what is it? What are the expectations here in terms of helping people out, taking on extra tasks, doing extra work? Um, because I'm really happy to do it. I just want to make sure I'm not taking on too much or I'm not stepping on anyone's toes. And just try and get a sense of what the expectations are. Again, this comes down to expectations within teams not being set and roles not being clear. So I think that's, that's the thing, is, is really look at, look at saying no, looking at getting on top of your own workload before you say yes to anything else, and try and have a conversation with your manager about what is actually within the expectations of, of you to be taking on extra tasks. Because I think the one thing we can all agree on is this isn't sustainable. It's just figuring out the, the best way to, to move forward. And I think as well, we're also making assumption collectively again that your colleagues are going to have a negative reaction to you saying no. It might be that if you explain, you know, look, I'm, I'm, I can't, I've got this to do by this day, I'm already being honest feeling a bit overwhelmed, I could probably do with some help myself, you might find that they'll go, oh, I didn't realize, I'll speak to, I'll speak to Jeffrey, he'll be able to take something on. Or it sounds like you're, you're holding a lot in and there needs to be some more transparency and communication. And of course that, that puts you in a vulnerable position because you've not kind of explained much about dynamics of your team. And we don't know, as I mentioned before, psychological safety. We don't know how much psychological safety is there. Um, but ultimately, it's gonna, it's gonna take a little testing of the waters to see what initial reaction you get. If you get a very negative reaction, that's a different problem entirely. Um, and, and one that, that is, is, yeah, a bit, a bit more difficult to solve. So, if you do that and that happens right and again, and we'll chat about that. But I think at this point, you're gonna have to just take some trust and faith in your colleagues actually. They're not bad people. They might just wrongly assume you have the capacity, um, and this just needs a little bit of sorting out.

Al ElliottSome of the language you're using in here again suggests to me that you don't like saying no, that you've maybe not said no in the past, which is why you're in this pickle, um, right now. So like Leanne said, think about all those things, but just try. Find someone on your team who, who you think they'd be the most amenable to you saying no to something. And try it out with them and just go, look, I'm really sorry, I can't take on what you want me to take on because— and this is the most important thing, this is, this is a marketing and psychological Robert Cialdini influence— because— and give them a reason why you can't take it on rather than just, I can't do it. There's, there's a whole spectrum of responses, but it sounds like if you're going to go, if you're going to push back and you haven't pushed back before, you're probably getting either— you're probably going to get some surprised people.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottYou might even get some angry people, but over time, learning how to say no is far more important than learning how to say yes, because you're just going to burn out. And that's what's going to happen. And then you won't be doing any of this because you'll be off sick.

Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. Like we said, it's self-preservation, self-prioritisation. Test those waters, you know, pick the, pick the colleague you think will respond the most positively. And if you can have this conversation with your manager when it rolls around to performance review, or even before then, And I would come at it from a very practical view, a view of role clarity. Can I just get an understanding of what is expected within my role? What's expected in terms of supporting the rest of the team? Because I don't want to, I don't want to step on any toes. I don't want to do anything I'm not meant to be doing. I want to make sure I'm helping in all the right places. Um, that, yeah, positive spin. But ultimately, I think it's, it's on your manager to, to be aware of this. And if you have been kind of shielding it from them, then bringing them into that loop will ultimately be a good thing.

Al ElliottOkay, so this 3rd question, Leanne, I'm chuckling because it could be a bit juicy, could be a bit gossipy. But this is anonymous, so I will not be identifying anyone here for obvious reasons. I've got a bit of a tricky situation here. Now, what you'll find out why I'm saying this in a minute, it doesn't say gender or anything like this. So we're just gonna take it on face value. My boss recently invited me to hang out outside of work. Nothing major, just grabbing a drink after hours. On one hand, I feel like it could be a great way to build rapport, but on the other hand, I'm worried it might blur the lines too much. Is it okay to socialize with your boss outside of work? Should I set some boundaries beforehand, or should I just say no but potentially risk my reputation or even my progression? Lee, what do you think?

Leanne ElliottOh, again, I think it's the manager here that, that's made a bit of an error in judgment there. And that's not to say there's anything sordid around going for a drink with your member of staff, of course not. But if it's just you and that one member of staff and you do it multiple times and you start to build a relationship outside of work, it, it just gets tricky, doesn't it? It just gets hard to even be objective, even if it's all very innocent. And you just know it's a friendship, it makes it very hard to be objective. And as a manager, you have to try and maintain some level of objectivity, some level of distance, or at the very least, some very clear boundaries. I mean, it— oh, it's really hard without knowing more information, isn't it? But I think probably the easiest way to transition out of this situation you've accidentally found yourself in.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottUm, because I guess that's the first thing to say. I do not think you want to invest time and energy in this relationship, even if you think it's going to do you good in your career. Um, I think when you actually say that out loud and read it back again, you'll realize that's a bit icky. Um, and also, you don't— you really hope your manager isn't that person, because if they are, then you open up a world that, that could be terrifying, actually. So we've got to hope that your manager isn't like that, and that your intention to leverage this personal relationship to get ahead in work. So, one, we need to figure out a way to end this accidental informal relationship. 2, I would say, next time they ask you to go for a drink or do something for work, oh yeah, great. Should we invite X, Y, and Z as well? They'll probably want to come from the team. We can make a team night. That'll be really nice. See how that response goes. If they're then like, oh yeah, cool. That sounds great.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottPhew, excellent. We've expanded the circle. Next time they ask, I'm really sorry, I can't tonight, maybe, you know, make it a team thing. Or maybe we should put in a social calendar where we all go out as a team every couple of weeks or something. There's ways to kind of step back and unpick it. Um, if they react like quite negatively to that and say, no, I only want to go out with you, then I think that's when you kind of need to set a hard boundary of, of, um, you know, it's, it's really tricky, but it is going to be that hard boundary of I'd rather, you know, not, not— I don't know, it's really hard.

Al ElliottI think here's a question for you, Lee. My temptation 20 years ago would be if I was— and if there was someone in my— who worked for me who was doing a particularly good job and I thought they could do something cool, then my temptation would be like, oh, should we go for a bit of lunch? Should we go for a drink after work and we'll talk about your future? What you're saying there is that as a business owner and their manager, That's not cool.

Leanne ElliottNo.

Al ElliottSee, this is interesting because I would have said, even like, not now, but, you know, even like maybe 5 years ago, I would have thought that's completely innocuous as long as you make it a public place and don't do anything weird. But, um, yeah, you're saying that that's not, that's not a great strategy as a manager.

Leanne ElliottIt's just, it's, it's taking the power dynamic out of the workplace, isn't it? It's the same power dynamic. I am, I am above you in terms of, of decision-making capability or Or influence over your career and your future and position in this company. And I'm taking that, that power dynamic, that uneven power dynamic from a work scenario to a non-work scenario. And it's that non-work scenario that, well, how does that power dynamic work there? If you lean over and touch my hand, is that acceptable? Or am I allowed to push back? Or is that then going to— am I then disrespecting you or disobeying you in that? It just makes it all messy, which is why you just don't want to get in that, put yourself in that situation the first place, either as an employer— certainly not as an employer, but as an employee. Um, it's not great. So I think, I think unpick, unpick this quickly. If they ask you again, see, you know, broaden it out to a team thing, say no. Ultimately, the reaction you're going to get from, from deciding that you want to politely decline from this personal invite to spend time together If that reaction is bad, it's going to tell you everything you need to know, really. If the person's like, okay, yeah, no worries, fine, then cool. It's, you know, we've seen a situation that, that, you know, we've turned into something that could be, could be more complex and more sordid. Equally not a great thing to engage in on a one-to-one outside of work. Um, but yeah, it's a different thing. So unpick it, I think.

Al ElliottJust, yeah, boundaries, say no, invite other people, ultimately transition out of this I thought that was a really smart thing you're saying there, inviting other people and see what the reaction is, because even if you don't end up going, it will be very telling to find out what you said when they, when they said no, it'll just be other, it'll be other people. Excellent as ever. You are the master at this.

Leanne ElliottIt's really, you know what, that's a really hard one. And I particularly empathise with owners who have startups, who've got to know their team on quite a personal level and a professional level, and then how those relationships change as they grow. people grow and progress. I've been there myself where, you know, a colleague, a peer I've worked very closely ends up becoming my manager, where, you know, somebody I've worked very closely, I end up becoming their manager. It's, it's a very tricky thing to navigate. And ultimately, I didn't engage in as many social activities as, as the team did. And I just think there needs to be a professional boundary.

Al ElliottAnd it sounds like for whatever reason in this scenario, one has Talking of crossing professional boundaries, you might have noticed in the background, um, of the last 20 minutes, a little tip-tap of a tiny little 7-kilogram pincer feet. That's a dog, by the way. Um, he's been, he's been just an angel every time we've recorded. And today he's just, he's at my, he's at my leg doing that thing, you know, Leanne, where he does that thing of just tapping you twice with his, with his nose as if to say, I want something to eat. So we shall probably leave it there. Leanne, is there anything you want to add to before that? No, I think that's a good way to end it. we say goodbye?

Leanne ElliottNo, not at all. If you have a question for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, um, then send it in. We always leave our contact details in the show notes. Easy-to-face email, hello@truthliesandwork.com. If you have a news article that catches your eye, let us know. Similarly, if you know of an emerging voice, leader, speaker, researcher, then do let us know for our new Fresh Voices segment. We will be doing that throughout September.

Al ElliottIf you haven't subscribed, then it would mean a lot to us if you did. If you are on YouTube and you've got any thoughts, then feel free to leave them in the comments. As we said before, don't just leave us something really, really nasty. Leave us— if you have something you don't like, tell us why you don't like it, and we will genuinely take it on board and see if we can fix it. If you're listening on audio, I feel like we, uh, I feel like we neglect you a little bit on audio because we keep talking about YouTube. If you're on audio though, you can't get in touch with us. But you can go onto the show notes. You'll see there's a way in which you can connect with Leanne on LinkedIn. Also, Leanne is pretty active on LinkedIn, so there's a good chance there's going to be a post around this episode. Jump on there, tell us what you think. Tell us if you think that you would have answered any of these questions differently. That would have been— that would be interesting. Yeah, we'd like to hear that.

Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. Particularly any HR experts out there who know a bit more about employment law than I do. I'm more kind of the— yeah, the psychology, the culture, than necessarily the legal. side of it. So do let us know, um, and come back on Thursday where we will be joined by Ed Williams, um, CEO and co-founder of Candy Kittens. It's a great conversation. And if you are on the fence about hybrid working, if you are, if you are pro-office, this is not one that you want to miss.

Al ElliottSo we'll see you next time. And by the way, a little teaser, we've got our second sir as a guest coming up at some point soon. So, uh, definitely want to subscribe. Well, thanks for listening, and we'll see you soon.

Leanne ElliottBye.

Al ElliottBye-bye.

Leanne ElliottWe will be, be joined by Edward Williams. Can't remember his name. Such a simple name. Dude, Bobby, shut up, man.

Al ElliottIt's okay.

Leanne ElliottI know, but it picks up everything It does, but it's okay.

Al ElliottSo, this Professor Eric. Now, I have to just— Eric, I'm so sorry.

Leanne ElliottRecognise them. Rod Kalvarovskoshefsh.

Al ElliottSorry, Rob. We should have practised this.

Leanne ElliottHow do you say it? Kalvarovsk— how do you say it?

Al ElliottKalvarovskii.

Leanne ElliottKalvarovskii.

Al ElliottRob. You said Rod. Rob Galvarowski.

Leanne ElliottOkay.

Al ElliottFabulous. Are you ready for the 3rd and final question?

Leanne ElliottI thought that was the 3rd question. We've got another one?

Al ElliottWelcome back to the world famous work—