Episode 223 · 14 August 2025 · 44:26
Why small talk is exhausting (according to science), with Associate Professor John Michel
Featuring Associate Professor John Michel
Why small talk is exhausting (according to science), with Associate Professor John Michel
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How John's research on coworker socializing began
interview#research#coworker#socializing
What small talk really is (and isn't)
interview#small-talk#communication#workplace
When small talk turns uncomfortable
interview#small-talk#discomfort#boundaries
Introverts vs. extroverts — the myth debunked
Emotional exhaustion: the precursor to burnout
Creating environments of inclusion
Making work fun without forcing it
Ground rules for humor at work
interview#humor#workplace#guidelines
Authentic connection vs. artificial fun
Show notes
Why Small Talk Is Exhausting (According to Science) — with Associate Professor John Michel
Guest: Associate Professor John Michel — Associate Professor and Bush Scholar at Loyola University Maryland, researcher into the hidden science of workplace chatter.
You're at the kettle. Dave from accounts walks up. "So… weather's nice." Sound harmless? According to the science, that moment could be quietly draining the life out of you.
John Michel joins Al and Leanne to reveal what his research discovered when his students started digging into coworker socializing: awkward small talk doesn't just make people uncomfortable — it leads to emotional exhaustion, the direct precursor to burnout. They explore why surface-level conversations are safer until trust develops, why forcing "Fun Fridays" backfires, and how bad small talk can isolate people and shrink their support networks at exactly the moment they need them most.
Top 3 Takeaways
Surface-level is better — until trust develops. Keep workplace conversations professional early on. Diving into personal topics before trust exists can actually harm your professional image, not build connection.
Forced fun backfires. Don't mandate Fun Fridays or try to copy Google's playbook. Organic socializing builds stronger relationships than manufactured activities — and mandatory fun breeds cynicism fast.
Uncomfortable conversations isolate. Bad small talk makes people feel excluded, reducing their support network and increasing burnout risk. Watch for the warning signs in your team.
More From John Michel
- Website: johnwmichel.wordpress.com
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/john-michel-33883a5
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottPicture this for a moment. You're at the kettle making a coffee when Dave from accounts walks up and says, so how's your love life going? Or maybe Kendra, the new intern, suddenly blurts out, you look like you've lost weight. You got any health issues? Sounds really awkward, right? Well, according to new research, these uncomfortable small talk moments aren't just cringeworthy. They're actually making your employees ill.
Leanne ElliottOur guest today, John Michel, was studying fun workplace conversations when his research students stumbled across something surprising. In the data, a large percentage of participants mentioned uncomfortable small talk, even though nobody had even asked them about it.
John MichelMy colleagues and I were doing some research on coworker socializing, and we were trying to figure out the different ways in which people socialize at work, outside of work, in between tasks, things like that. And I had an undergraduate assistant at the time, and she was looking at the data that we had collected and came across a number of people talking about instances of uncomfortable small talk that were just coming up. And it wasn't, it wasn't once or twice, it was like 50 to 80 instances.
Al ElliottJohn has done extensive research on small talk, and he's discovered that awkward small talk doesn't just make people feel uncomfortable, it actually leads to emotional exhaustion, the precursor to burnout. And before you think this is just an introvert problem, it's not.
Leanne ElliottToday we're diving into the hidden science of workplace chatter, why bad small talk can literally drain your team's energy, and the surprising difference between Small talk that builds connection and small talk that destroys it.
Al ElliottThis is going to change how you think about every casual conversation at work from now on.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the So today we are asking, when does friendly workplace chat become a wellbeing killer? We think small talk is harmless, right? Just the way we build rapport with colleagues. But what if we've been getting it completely wrong?
Al ElliottOur guest today is John Michel, who's the Associate Professor at Loyola University of Maryland. He studies something most of us take for granted— those casual conversations that happen between colleagues. between meetings, at the coffee machine, or in the lift. His research reveals there's a dark side to workplace small talk that's hiding in plain sight.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you're a leader thinking, well, I'll just ban small talk then, hold on! John's research also shows that the right kind of casual conversation actually boosts performance and reduces turnover. The trick is knowing the difference.
Al ElliottSo after this very quick break, we're going to meet John properly and discover what small talk really is, Why it can be exhausting and whether you need to be an extrovert to survive it. Don't go anywhere. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
John MichelSo I am John Michel. I am an associate professor and the Bush Scholar at Loyola University Maryland in the United States. I conduct research in the areas of fun at work, coworker socializing and social interactions, and employee retention and performance. My colleagues and I were doing some research on coworker socializing, and we were trying to figure out the different ways in which people socialize at work, outside of work, in between tasks, things like that. And I had an undergraduate assistant at the time who's now a PhD student. studying elsewhere. And she was looking at the data that we had collected and came across a number of people talking about these instances of uncomfortable small talk that were just coming up. And it wasn't, you know, it wasn't once or twice, it was like 50 to 80 instances of people mentioning this. And they weren't being asked about uncomfortable conversations at all. They were being asked about like, what are the types of things you talk about? Where do you talk about it? Who do you talk about it with?
Al ElliottYeah.
John MichelYou know, and it really geared towards more fun conversations and playful conversations, things that got people excited to be at work and kind of improve the experience of work. And what she really found was that, you know, a lot of people were getting engaged in these conversations that made them feel a little uneasy or uncomfortable.
Leanne ElliottWe think small talk is the way that we get to know people, the way we start to build that rapport with our colleagues. And it seems like such a small thing. So, what's the big question behind small talk?
John MichelSo, I think small talk has often been assumed to be this kind of very basic and easygoing conversation between people at work, conversations about the weather or sports or common interests. But actually people engage in different levels of small talk. So there is small talk that is just kind of common thought, and then there's small talk that goes much deeper. So oftentimes people, especially as they build relationships, will start talking about relationships that they're in, or they'll talk about challenges that they're having, or they'll talk about, you know, whether they want to stay at the organization for a long period of time, or if they have plans to move on, right? So they'll, they'll, they're still not getting into real deep conversation, but they're going into more personal avenues of conversation. And this is where these uncomfortable instances of small talk come up. Right? So this is where people might try to engage you in a conversation about how your romantic relationships are going, or how has your health been? Have you experienced any health challenges? What types of family issues are you having? Are you experiencing a lot of work-life balance issues? Who are you in conflict with in the organization? Why are you in conflict with them? You know, so those types of conversations come up. in just passing and kind of short instances of small talk throughout the day, but they oftentimes can kind of encroach on people's personal selves and become uncomfortable.
Leanne ElliottSo is it a case then that it's this small talk that is uncomfortable typically falls outside of the realm of work? Although I know you give a few examples there of actually within work, Is it, what's, what's the driver there? Is it that it's inappropriate conversation? Is it they don't have this base level relationship with this person? Is it perceived as somebody being nosy? Because again, it feels like, well, this is just how we start to build authentic relationships, isn't it?
John MichelThat's right. And so there's kind of different categories. So in some instances, there's things where people just don't feel comfortable. So if you and I are talking about our favorite sports team and a third person doesn't know anything about sports or is not interested in sports, They may feel uncomfortable just because they're not part of the conversation. So they feel kind of like an outcast or not really ostracized, but not part of the in-group, right? So there's those forms of uncomfortable conversation. There's also things that bleed into your personal interest or your personal life that people just aren't comfortable talking about with their coworkers. And so, and those were some of the examples I gave before. So, you know, asking about romantic relationships, asking about personal issues. That people just don't feel comfortable talking about. Then there's other instances of small talk where people don't feel comfortable talking about them at work, but they're okay if they're in a social setting. So say coworkers go out together afterwards for happy hour. They're fine talking about it outside of the confines of work, almost like, I don't feel comfortable talking about it in this professional space because I'm supposed to be a professional and supposed to be task-focused, but I'm okay once we leave kind of the confines of the professional world. So there's these different groupings that we're finding. of small talk. It's not kind of that all conversations that are personal are always uncomfortable, but some topics are kind of always off base. Some topics are okay as long as you're not in the confines of the workplace, and some conversations are always okay. So it really just kind of depends. It's not, there's no one-size-fits-all. Everybody doesn't experience the uncomfortability the same and for the same reasons. But if you're talking about the weather or the company picnic that just happened, everybody's probably okay with that. But when you start getting into things that people don't care about or they don't feel comfortable bringing into work, or it exposes some sort of limitation or some sort of area that they're not confident or capable in, that might make them feel uncomfortable.
Leanne ElliottWe're led to believe that people who are introverted typically in these social situations would find it draining in terms of energy. Have— is there any evidence to say that introverts might want to engage in small talk less, or they find it more uncomfortable, or is it more about, as you said, the context?
John MichelNo. So, there's not a lot out there in the organizational literature. We are starting to look at that now. So, We're looking at a number of boundary conditions or moderators. Currently, we're actually conducting the research right now. Things like introversion, extroversion, neuroticism. So people who just get stressed easily, they may not want to talk about personal issues because it may either expose a weakness of theirs or it may just make them feel like they're under time pressure. We're also looking at other personality traits like Social anxiety. Some people are just— get anxious in social situations. So it's not just that they're an introvert, but they're actually like anxious talking to other people, especially about something that is not task-related, something that's not work-related. And then another personality trait we're looking at is the need to belong. So some people have a great need to belong, and they may be much more willing to engage in small talk, even if it becomes personal, because they've got this great need to connect. Right. So we're starting to look at that now, but that has really been underexamined in the literature thus far.
Leanne ElliottAnd in terms of that, that, 'cause what I found really interesting about the paper that you shared with me was that how you'd found a link between this awkward small talk and emotional exhaustion. So can you maybe start by helping our listeners understand what emotional exhaustion is in this context?
John MichelYeah. So emotional exhaustion is kind of the precursor to burnout. So burnout is when you become so taxed, so stressed, And your body, because you haven't coped emotionally or physically, your body is kind of giving out. So we've all experienced burnout. If we've studied for too long, if we've worked for too long and we start to feel sick or we start to get a headache or we start to get really exhausted, right? That's kind of the burnout. Emotional exhaustion is where we start to feel emotionally run down. Sometimes when people are highly emotionally exhausted, they may burst into tears for no explanation. Or they may get, they may lash out, you know, with anger for no explanation because they're just so emotionally taxed. So that's kind of like the first sign of burnout. So it's an important indicator of wellbeing. If people are experiencing a lot of emotional exhaustion, their wellbeing is lower. So they're not experiencing a lot of potential life satisfaction, flourishing, thriving in the workplace. And that's an important indicator because that's going to explain how much people are able to bring to the job.
Al ElliottYeah.
John MichelAre they able to bring their full selves to work? And are they able to, you know, be able to focus their full energy in the tasks that they're supposed to focus on? So what we found using social exclusion theory is that engaging in these forms of uncomfortable small talk makes people feel lonely or, you know, ostracized or, you know, or isolated. So they start to feel like, well, I'm not part of the in-group. I feel like I'm kind of on an island here.
Al ElliottYeah.
John MichelIf you will. And that starts to— so that reduces the number of resources that they're getting or the amount of resources they're getting from their social support network. And then when they start to feel stressed, they can't rely on those other people to help bring that stress down. So that one way that people often cope is through their social support. I'm stressed, I'm going to take a break and I'm going to go talk to Leanne about something fun, or we'll go for a walk and get some exercise together and just have a conversation about life. So that's something I might do. If I start to feel like I'm excluded or I start to feel like I'm lonely or ostracized at all, then I don't have those people to go to. I don't have that network to draw on in order to protect me against the stressors that I'm experiencing, which makes me more likely to experience emotional exhaustion. So that was that finding. that, um, that, that, you know, we identified in that first study was just that people do experience more emotional exhaustion when they experience more uncomfortable forms of small talk at work.
Leanne ElliottI can imagine there's business leaders, um, and owners listening going, well, how do I approach this then? Because if I, if I've got the awkward small talk, that's going to mean that people are emotionally exhausted and then feel isolated. How do I know what small talk is good for building relationships and which isn't? Do I just ban small talk? Do we just talk about work? Where does it leave them?
John MichelYeah, I think it's important to create an environment where people feel included, right? So an environment of inclusiveness or belonging where people feel like they're part of something that they all identify with. So they have this kind of we spirit and they feel like they're kind of all together. Uh, and then, you know, just, I think having the reminder that, you know, keep the small talk professional, right? So make sure that it's okay to go, you know, to talk about things that are not task-related, but don't talk about things that may make people, you know, may kind of broach into people's personal lives or maybe it may be uncomfortable to talk about because it could expose a weakness or it could bring up something that, you know, that that is hurtful to the person. So for example, if somebody is experiencing financial debt, or if somebody is going through a divorce, if you bring up topics like that, it's gonna not only push the person away, but it's also going to start to make them feel like they're not part of the group, that people, if they're willing to talk about that with me, they clearly don't care about how I feel about the situation.
Al ElliottRight.
John MichelSo if I were a leader and I was looking at this, it would be like, First, we need to create an environment of belongingness where we all feel like we're a team or we're a set of people who have a similar identity to the workplace. And then keep it fun but professional, right? So make it lighthearted but not overly personal or not overly sensitive, right? So kind of keep it, you know, talk about the weather, talk about sports, talk about Things that are going on in the company, to talk about vacation plans and similar, you know, find common interests, talk about games that people like to play. There's many things that you could engage people in conversation about that aren't going to get into personal issues such as health. You know, like if you say like, oh, you know, this person has lost a lot of weight or gained a lot of weight, and you start asking about health questions, that's going to make them feel uncomfortable. One, because they're getting into a personal thing that they don't want to talk about. But it's also going to expose a weakness, like, could this person be a liability to the company? So if you engage people in conversation like that, it's going to push them away because they're going to go into a protective mode where they feel like they need to, you know, either not answer or give a, you know, give kind of a very careful answer in order to protect their own image at the company. So it's really about making sure that conversations are fun, but not overly encroaching on people's personal space. We know from the organizational psychology literature that it's really important that you hire for fit and you hire people who fit the values and personality of the company and who really will not only get along with what the company's trying to accomplish, but with the people within the company. You know, the people make the place, and that's very true. And then once you have created that, it's important that you create this sense of belongingness. Now, belongingness kind of goes a step further than psychological safety. Psychological safety is a As you know, is all about being able to speak freely, being able to make mistakes without the threat of punishment or being made fun of. Belongingness is that, is a sense of psychological safety, but also knowing that people have your back and that people are looking out for your best interest and that we're all in it together and that people see me as an important, valued contributor to the organization. So, that's really what organizations want to focus on. So a lot of, you know, my research and a lot of research in this area focuses on how do you build strong interpersonal connections at work, right? So how do you build not necessarily friendships, but trusting, caring, nurturing relationships where people can be honest with each other, where people can be fair to one another, where people are, you know, showing care and concern to one another. in a way to try to build stronger social exchange relationships with their colleagues. That's really what we're looking to do in organizations if you want to create a sense of belonging, right? And that will fulfill their need for relationship and their need for belongingness, which are 2 of the central human needs that people look for.
Leanne ElliottYou mentioned that it was one of your, was it your PhD student who first started to look at the data and noticed this? This pattern, when you started to dive into it and research it more, was there a result that really surprised you?
John MichelWell, I think the first surprise was just, so my student was Emily Pink. She was an undergrad student at the time, now working on her PhD in IO psychology, but she stumbled on it. And I just was shocked at, 'cause we were asking like, what do you talk about your coworker? What do you talk about with your coworkers for fun? You know, what do you do to, you know, make the work environment more fun and engaging and You know, what are some things that, you know, come up in conversation? That's when we kind of stumbled on this. I was mostly surprised just how often it happens. Not, not so much by what people were thrown off by. It made sense to me, right? It makes, it makes sense that people don't want to talk about overly personal issues or non-task-related issues, especially if the organization's highly competitive or if the organization's highly structured, right? You don't want to kind of get off task because you'd be seen as—
Al ElliottYeah.
John MichelYou know, slacking off or, or not doing your job. So it's not, that wasn't so surprising to me. Uh, but just the fact that it was coming up, like people were feeling free to just bring up whatever they felt in conversations with others at work. Now, if you look at another thing that we're starting to look at is like, if you look at friendship groups, once you and I are close friends, what I can ask you or what you're willing to share with me.
Al ElliottYeah.
John Michelis much broader, right? You will, once we're friends, even if we're coworker friends, right? So not just coworkers, but actual friends. And we're talking especially outside of work. You may talk to me about your relationships. You may talk to me about, you know, your financial issues or the fact that you're looking for a new job at another company, right? But you're— until we're friends, you're not going to have that same level of bond with me or trust with me where you feel that you can bring those up in a way that it's not going to potentially hurt your professional image. Right? So people are, most people are savvy enough to think that I need to protect my professional image because I need this job at least now until I choose not to have this job. Right? And they could feel that if I harm my professional image, I may be at threat of losing my job. And that's really what's going on. When we were reading that, because the data was all qualitative that we started with, and, you know, people just talked about, you know, like we were talking about the weather, you know, and sports or whatever. Some people said, yeah, I just didn't feel— I don't feel interested in sports. I wasn't into that conversation, but I would have been happy to talk about movies. Some people talked like that. Other people said, I was surprised that this person started asking me questions about my love life. Or, you know, my kids, like, what, what are my kids' names? How old are they? Like, there's like, sometimes people don't mind saying like, my kid won a big tournament this weekend in soccer, but they don't want to get into really specific information about their kids. And so things like that came up. So it was kind of a vast array of, of issues that came up through the data. But it was, uh, it was interesting that until people really build that trust, they don't really want to get into many personal issues. They want to keep it much more surface level. And I think especially that's important to, That's important to build within the culture, right? Everybody, because it's really, when I come into the company, I'm going to be guarded and I'm going to be careful of what I say. So I'm really looking to, I'm building my socialization by looking at the people around me. What kinds of things are they talking about? Are they joking around a lot? Are they goofing off a lot? Because if they're goofing off a lot and they're, the boss is rewarding them for that, that may signal to me that that's what I should be doing. You know, if they're joking around and poking fun at each other and the boss is part of it, that tells me something, right? But if people are more guarded or more careful, that also signals to me, how should I behave in the organization, right? So organizational culture is all about, if I don't have an idea of what I'm supposed to do, the culture will kind of signal to me how I should be behaving, right? And so it's really important, I think mostly that the people already in the organization are careful.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
John MichelOr are behaving in a way that is in line with what the organization wants. Maybe the organization wants deeper conversations, more personal relationships, you know, and if that's the case and the organization operates like that, then that's what, that's the kind of people they'd want to hire. They'd probably want to be upfront about that. And that's the kind of culture they'd want to build. But if they, if they really want to focus on being more professional, they may want to create a culture where It's obvious that when I'm at work, I'm supposed to be working. A little bit of fun's okay, but work is work. And when I'm outside of work, I can let my hair down a bit. So it's really important that the stage is set for the new employees so that they know how to act. I wouldn't put too much onus on the new employees to try to determine themselves how I should act in this. It's really the organization's responsibility to signal that to the employees so they know how to how to engage with their coworkers and with the organization.
Al ElliottSo now you know more about small talk than 99% of people in the world, thanks to John. After this really short break, we're gonna get a little bit more practical and ask how we can build a culture that encourages small talk and just the right amount of fun. We're also gonna find out what happens when employers try to force fun in the workplace. Hint, not good things. See you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast, podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
John MichelAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which.
Al ElliottFel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless.
John MichelSeamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.
John MichelWe've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such It's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
John MichelIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
John MichelI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
John MichelDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
John MichelKeep that in.
Al ElliottWelcome back. Let's rejoin Leanne as she and John navigate the tricky path of trying to make work fun without excluding anyone.
Leanne ElliottHow can organizations kind of use the insights of this research and everything else that we know about culture to build a fun culture that is also effective in not excluding anyone? Are there things we can do to support that?
John MichelYeah, there are, but fun is Like small talk, it's kind of got similar issues. So a lot of my research has been in the area of fun at work. And the issue with fun is that there's kind of 2 areas. So there's kind of this very managed or, you know, kind of fun that's imposed on people. So we've got a fun culture here and we're going to have Fun Fridays and Fun Fridays, you're going to play games and you're going to, we're going to go to happy hour and we're going to do all these things, right? Versus more organic.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
John Michelforms of fun, which is where socializing tends to fall, right? So you and I go out for a walk or go out for lunch or joke around in our cubicle because we're more friendly with each other. And that's okay. The boss has given us autonomy in this fun culture to allow us to do that. That tends to be more effective and more enjoyable for people, more fun for people than the more managed fun where we say we're going to have this celebration this day in this way. Right? When people feel overprescribed and less autonomous, even if you're trying to build a sense of belongingness, they're gonna feel like it's being forced upon them as opposed to something they're choosing to do. And that's really something that organizations need to be careful with. Something that we've, my colleague Michael Tews and I have focused on over the years is this idea of manager support for fun. So managers need to be supportive of fun, and they do that in various ways. One way is they provide resources and time. And permission to have fun, right? But they also model the behavior that they want. So what level of fun am I expecting? How am I wanting people to have fun? And a supportive manager would also try to get information from people within the organization. So the employees, what types of fun do you want to have? What would you find fun versus not? That's what a supportive manager would do. Otherwise, you're forcing things that you may find fun, but others don't.
Al ElliottYeah.
John MichelRight. And then they become overly cynical to it. And then they start to try to avoid those days, or they try to avoid those activities at all costs. People are often misconceived by the fact that fun tends to happen in between tasks. So in between the boundaries of work, it's not, it tends to not encroach on your task. Now, sometimes the manager might come in and say, Leanne, it's time to have fun. Put down your work that you're focused on and let's go have fun. And that's going to frustrate you because you're in the middle of getting something accomplished.
Al ElliottYeah.
John MichelBut if you and I choose to have fun, we choose to goof off or joke around or have a conversation, we likely would do that before a meeting, after a meeting, you know, after we've completed a big task, right? Maybe a Friday afternoon after a big project has just been completed, you know, a bunch of people go out for happy hour and dinner, right? So people will choose to do it. They tend to do it, you know, in between tasks or outside of tasks. You don't find, because that's always been one of the The things that we've heard from people and organizations is, isn't this going to just reduce productivity? And it really doesn't. We have found in our research that productivity, you know, fun can relate positively to productivity. You know, it does relate to performance, but if it's fun all the time, clearly tasks can't get accomplished. But if people are having fun in between work or in between stressful situations to manage the emotional labor that they're experiencing, Yeah, that's a great way to have fun because much of fun is about de-stressing. It's about building relationship. It's about building up those resources that you can use when you become stressed. So a lot of the emotional literature talks about building up resources so that when you become stressed or burned out, you can lean on those resources to help de-stress. So they become ways to overcome stressful situations. And so it's important to kind of build those up over time. And one way that you find that people do this in the, or in organizations is by having fun with each other, joking around with each other, goofing off together, right? Socializing. It's just really important that it doesn't go too far. One thing that the humor literature has found, for example, is that humor can go too far and like small talk can make people feel uncomfortable or can Uh, it can almost become a form of bullying. So even with humor, it's important that there's some ground rules that people follow.
Leanne ElliottAre there certain ground rules that you'd recommend when it comes to humor at work?
John MichelSame kind of with small talk is, you know, keep it clean, keep it, you know, uh, keep it non-offensive, non-personal. I mean, I think a lot of times it's like, if it becomes overly personal and you're not really close with the person, that's when it becomes an issue. Right? If you're making fun of the person because of a trait they have, of course, that's, we know it's a problem. If you're making fun of a situation or the way the boss lashed out at somebody or, you know, said something in a meeting, it's probably not going to cause too much issue. Right? So, but if it becomes overly personal and it's pointed at the person, the joke's pointed at the person, at a person about some trait they have, that's going to be an issue. So it's really about kind of keeping it non-personal, lighthearted, enjoyable for all that are around. Or if you're going to be engaging in humor that includes aspects of gossip, you might want to take it outside of work. Like do that when you're out at lunch or when you're out at happy hour. Probably not a great idea because that will get around eventually, but that does happen. So, the more professional, the less personal, whether it be small talk or humor can be, the better. That tends to be better for all parties.
Leanne ElliottAnd I'm surprised that this is also where these levels of emotional intelligence and self-awareness in managing leaders is so important to almost kind of constantly survey that environment and pick up the cues when it's gone a bit too far or it's disrupting work. Because you're right, if somebody came in and said, Leanne, it's time to have fun, and I was in a state of flow, I'd be furious. So, is it as much on the manager and leader to be very, very aware and mindful of the environment?
John MichelYeah. I mean, the managers need to be aware of what's going on in their organization, and a highly supportive manager is going to do this, right? So, a highly supportive manager is going to ensure that they're in touch with what the needs of their employees are, what the desires of their employees are, and where employees might be experiencing stress or Or, you know, need additional assistance. So it's that, that's a, that's an important aspect of leadership that, that, you know, that leaders need to be mindful of. If you look at a lot of the leadership literature, especially as it compares like task to relational behaviors, most of that literature finds that from the employee's perspective, what they're looking for is the relational manager, the supportive manager, the development developmental manager, right? It's the manager's boss who's looking for those real task indications. So not that the employees don't care about task accomplishment or task guidance, but what they're looking for is, is the manager supporting me, looking out for my welfare, looking out for opportunities for me, helping me develop? That's really what employees are looking for. So managers need to be mindful of that, and they need to ensure that they're providing signals to employees, or they're creating an environment where people feel supported and they feel like they've got autonomy to focus on work. So say no to the fun experience or to engage in fun when they're feeling a bit stressed and not feel like they're under any pressure to stay on task. So it's, that's an important thing for managers too. And I think more and more managers are learning the importance of being supportive. But not all are, you know, many just kind of crack the whip and expect you to be on all the time.
Al ElliottSo clearly there's a balance here between building connection and going too far. But here's when it gets really quite interesting. John's current research is looking at the dark side of workplace fun.
Leanne ElliottBecause here's the thing, we've been told that fun at work is always good, right? Google Slides, ping pong tables, free food everywhere. But what happens when fun becomes a bit forced?
Al ElliottWhat happens when employers try too hard to manufacture John's got some great insights about why copying Google's playbook might be the worst thing you can do for your company culture. It turns out that when fun becomes mandatory, it backfires spectacularly.
Leanne ElliottAnd actually, this connects directly back to our small talk problem, because when organisations try to force connection, whether that's through mandatory fun or pushing people into personal conversations before they're ready, they create the exact opposite of what they're trying to achieve.
Al ElliottSo here's John again explaining why authentic connection beats artificial fun every single time.
John MichelRight now we are in the process of doing some work where we're looking at the relationship between fun and more destructive behaviors, if you will, not all destructive, but more counterproductive type behavior. So physical and psychological withdrawal, individual deviance behavior. So like making fun of people, gossiping about people, talking poorly about people, burnout. So like the actual experience of burnout, not just emotional exhaustion. So we're in the process of looking at that right now. And the way we're looking at that is like, what are some of the ways in which fun could potentially deplete your resources? So we know that it adds to your resources, right? We know that it helps you build relationships, feel less stressed, but how can it add to your stress? And some of the ways it likely does that are through creating time pressures or You know, creating work-life imbalances, right? Like, because we had fun today, I've got to stay late at work and get my tasks done so I can't get home to my family or to my other responsibilities. So we're starting to look at that right now. Our prior research, there wasn't that many surprises we've seen so far. A lot of it has been focused on coworker socializing and manager support as they relate to things like job performance and employee turnover. And a lot of fun operates through this idea of relational attachment, where fun promotes relationships and those relationships make us more likely to stay. We've done a number of studies looking at turnover at 3 months, 6 months, a year, and 18 months. And we found that fun helped to increase employee retention. And even performance, both task performance and organizational citizenship behaviors, especially helping behaviors. So, and it happens a lot through that relationship building. How committed are you towards your fellow coworkers? What kinds of relationships are you developing? So that's really where fun happens. But the unanswered question from our research has been these kind of more destructive or counterproductive type behaviors. So that's the area we're going in now. And I don't know yet. I don't know. What the data will show.
Leanne ElliottAre employers, sorry, business owners and leaders chasing the wrong thing? Is it right to chase fun or should we actually be chasing that authentic connection where then those more organic pockets of fun will just happen? Is fun the wrong focus?
John MichelIt's, I think it's really more, don't force fun. Don't say we are going to create a fun environment, right? It's more like we're going to create an environment where people like you said, can bring their true selves in, where people can build connection, where people can goof off a bit, but where we're getting real work done. I mean, if you think about kind of the most common example would be Google. I don't think the founders of Google ever set out to create a fun workplace, but they just thought, if we want really innovative, creative people, we need to create a space where they can be innovative and creative, and we want to get the best and brightest. So we need to create a differentiated environment where people are going to want to come. And oh, by the way, with all of these benefits, it actually forces people to stay at work longer. So they're actually getting more out of their employees than otherwise they otherwise would have. So, but I don't think they ever intended to create a fun environment per se. And I think the problem was, is that after Google became the poster company for this, You know, for these positive work environments, everybody tried to create Google, but they only tried to do it by instituting one or two things. Well, let's have free food. And then free food didn't really change anything because that was just one little piece of what Google was doing, right? And that wasn't— people weren't working hard because of free food or because they had a slide or because they had beanbag chairs. It was kind of this whole concept, right? This whole entire culture that was built. And so, organizations need to be much more thoughtful of what are we trying to create? I would really start at Are we trying to be a more cooperative or competitive environment? In finance, competitiveness is good, right? Competitiveness helps financial institutions do what they do. But in more high-tech or more innovative research and design, it may be more cooperation. How do we come together and collaborate and work as teammates? And that would— those 2 environments would have very different cultures, right? And then it's really an idea of, Regardless of what type of environment we've created, how do we go about making people feel like they belong in that environment, they fit in that environment, and we want them there, we value their contributions, right? So, so organizations, I think they need to stop just taking these off-the-shelf solutions and saying, fun seems to work, let's do fun, and think about what are we trying to create here. If we want to create an environment where, you know, where we want people to connect and we want people to de-stress, then maybe fun's the right thing. Maybe, you know, maybe for some environments it could be the organized fun activities, you know, if through like as a team building activity, maybe through other companies, it's more just like giving people autonomy to socialize and goof off together. It's interesting because we, Michael Toews and I originally identified this kind of area by thinking about Google, but we were working with a large restaurant chain in the United States. who was experiencing high levels of turnover. And we had been working with them trying to find ways to reduce turnover. And when we started instituting some fun activities, and they were small, like upselling drink competitions or who could roll silverware the fastest after a shift, and bosses would walk around with spot bonuses for who could do that. And they'd make it a competition, make it kind of fun. They would have, you know, You know, theme days where people would, you know, they would provide different uniforms and people would come in with those uniforms and make it more fun. So they did these little tiny experiments around fun and it just worked. Retention went up in an industry where, you know, turnover is like 60, 70%, and we were able to help them bring it down fairly significantly, right? So they brought turnover down by a significant amount. It wasn't a small number. It was like—
Al ElliottWow.
John MichelOver 10%, uh, uh, in some stores over 20%. So like, they— fun worked. Now in that environment, you've got a lot of young people. You've got probably a lot of people in high school or college. You've got, you know, people who are not making this their full-time career, right? Uh, 'cause this was a fast casual restaurant. So maybe in that environment, fun is the right approach. But if I were working with a bank, doing executive banking, I certainly would not, you know, suggest that they do, you know, all the wild and wacky things like Zappos did, like having parades around the office and decorating your cubicles in wild ways and letting people wear whatever they wanted to work and talk to customers however they wanted. I wouldn't suggest that, right? For a shoe company, that's great. For a financial institution, maybe just giving people more downtime. Maybe giving people, you know, a couple Fridays off a month or letting people, you know, starting sports teams that people can play in that are company-sponsored. So, there's different ways to do it. And I think that the problem you find is that companies will find something that works and they'll just kind of assume that it works the same for all organizations and it just doesn't. You have to think about your people, your strategy, what you're trying to accomplish, how you're trying to accomplish it, what kind of money do you have to spend on it? Yeah. What your managers are going to, how they're going to react and how they're going to support it. So there needs to be a lot of thought, unfortunately, put into this if it's going to work effectively. Given that a lot of our research has focused on this connection or this, you know, this belonging idea, this idea of socializing, start there. I mean, it's easy to allow people to engage in chitchat or conversations or go out for lunch together, bring pizza in for your people, People love free food. You bring a few pizzas in or whatever your favorite food is and you let people congregate together and share food. They love it. They find it to be fun. They'll be highly engaged in it and they'll engage in conversation that's non-work related often, especially if they're all together. You can do little things like that to start it. It doesn't have to be this big plan that's really expensive. It can be pretty small. And really it's those organic types of fun that people care most about anyway. And that's where the socializing comes in or the small talk or the just sharing, you know, sharing time together is really what it comes down to. Even the most competitive environments could do that.
Al ElliottThat was John Michel, and you now know a lot about small talk. Just to recap, here are the top 3 lessons for leaders.
Leanne ElliottLesson number 1, create psychological safety first. Belonging second. Don't jump straight into personal conversations. Your team needs to feel safe before they'll open up, and that does mean keeping small talk professional until genuine relationships develop gradually.
Al ElliottLesson 2: support organic fun, but don't manufacture it. Stop trying to be Google with sort of mandatory Fun Fridays and those in-house chefs. Instead, give your people autonomy to connect naturally.
Leanne ElliottProvide time, space, and permission And lesson 3, watch for the warning signs. If your team is experiencing uncomfortable small talk regularly, it's a red flag for emotional exhaustion and potential burnout. So train your managers to recognize when casual conversation is actually isolating people rather than connecting them.
Al ElliottIf you want to find out more about John Michel and his work, then go to johnw.michel.com. michel.wordpress.com. Links from the show notes, or search for me on LinkedIn.
Leanne ElliottThat is all for today. We are back on Tuesday with another summer session of the podcast. That's the episodes where we sit on our terrace, drink wine, and chat about the more fun aspects of work.
Al ElliottAnd we'd love you to join us. This is Truth, Lies and Work. We'll see you next week.