Episode 128 · 17 September 2024 · 52:48
Are You a Workaholic? PLUS Gen Z Whisperers and the New Normal for Sick Days – This Week in Work 17th September 2024
Are You a Workaholic? PLUS Gen Z Whisperers and the New Normal for Sick Days – This Week in Work 17th September 2024
0:000:00
Tip: click any timestamp below to jump there and keep playing.
Enjoying the show? Subscribe for free
Chapters & timestamps
Click any timestamp to jump the player to that moment.
Are you a workaholic?
news roundup#workaholic#work-life-balance#burnout
The Gen Z Whisperers
news roundup#gen-z#workplace#management
The changing face of sick leave
news roundup#sick-leave#absence#wellbeing
Fresh Voices: Connie Hadley on team rituals
news roundup#team-rituals#culture#coaching
Workplace Surgery: open office headphones dilemma
workplace surgery#headphones#open-office#productivity
Workplace Surgery: modernising the law firm
workplace surgery#law-firm#flexible-working#modernisation
Workplace Surgery: attracting young talent
workplace surgery#young-talent#design#recruitment
Show notes
Are You a Workaholic? PLUS Gen Z Whisperers and the New Normal for Sick Days
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the rise of workaholism (now affecting 15% of workers), why companies are hiring "Gen Z Whisperers" to decode the youngest generation in the workforce, and how sick leave is being rewritten for the hybrid era. Plus, Fresh Voices with Connie Hadley on the power of team rituals, and the World Famous Weekly Workplace Surgery — open-plan headphones, modernising a law firm, and attracting young talent without the flashy perks.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Are you a workaholic? Workaholism now affects 15% of workers, according to the Annual Review of Organizational Psychology and Organizational Behavior. But it's not just about long hours or loving what you do — it's an actual compulsion. Leanne and Al dig into the difference between being passionate and being addicted, and the warning signs that work is crowding out the rest of your life.
2. The Gen Z Whisperers Companies are hiring young advisors — "Gen Z Whisperers" — to help them understand and retain their youngest talent. From spotting inauthenticity a mile away to rethinking workplace culture, these whisperers are shaping how organisations adapt. But is this really about Gen Z, or just youth culture doing what it's always done?
3. The changing face of sick leave Business Insider reports on how sick leave is evolving in the hybrid work era. With blurred lines between home and office, the old rules around calling in sick are shifting — and the US approach (zero sick days for some) is looking increasingly out of step.
🎙️ Fresh Voices: Connie Hadley
Leanne introduces Connie Hadley, founder and chief scientist at the Institute for Life at Work. Connie's research focuses on the future of work, team dynamics, and psychological safety. Her highlight insight? The power of team rituals — simple bonding activities that elevate a team's sense of purpose and improve overall well-being.
More from Connie Hadley: linkedin.com/in/connie-noonan-hadley-7303066
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Open office dilemma: Alex converted the office to open-plan to encourage collaboration — but the Gen Z employees are wearing noise-cancelling headphones all day. Should he ban them?
- Modernising the law firm: Sarah faces pressure from junior staff for flexible working, but senior partners are resisting. How does she implement flexibility without sacrificing standards?
- Attracting young talent: A graphic design studio owner can't compete with the flashy perks of bigger firms. What non-monetary benefits actually move the needle for Gen Z?
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYes, we are. Quick reminder, if you like guest interviews and hearing stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then our Thursday episodes are definitely right up your street. We bring you a brand new interview every single Thursday. And if you like to keep up to date with the latest news around the workplace, then you're in the right place every Tuesday. Like today, we bring you our weekly news roundup, our September segment which we're calling Fresh Voices, and of course our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne.
Leanne ElliottAnd as it's Tuesday, then let's kick off with my favourite time of the week, the weekly news roundup. Al, cue the jingle.
Al ElliottConsider it cued. What have you got, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottQuestion.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottAre you a workaholic?
Al ElliottNo, actually, I used to be when I was— when I was— yeah, when we first started my first company, I'll be Yeah, I'll be 18 hours a day, 19 hours a day. But no, absolutely, I'm far too fat and old to do that these days.
Leanne ElliottWell, yeah, I mean, it can be something that resonates with you. It can be something that you dismiss. But recent studies are suggesting that workaholism is more common than we think. So a report in the Annual Review of Organisational Psychology and Organisational Behaviour— catchy title— found that 50% of workers qualify as workaholics.
Al Elliott50, did you say?
Leanne Elliott15. Oh, 15, okay. But this isn't just about working long hours, Al, or loving what you do. It's about an actual addiction to work that's driven by constant thoughts, emotions, and behaviours related to work. So the study, led by Toon Taras from Utrecht University, paints a clear picture. Workaholism is an addiction with serious consequences for health and job performance. So how do you know if you're a workaholic? Well, experts say true workaholism includes 4 key things: feeling an inner compulsion to work, having persistent thoughts about work even when you're not working, experiencing negative feelings like anxiety or guilt when you're not working, and going beyond what's expected or necessary in your job. Does it sound familiar? I think the same. In the past, I, I might have bordered on that. Um, another psychologist, Melissa Clark at the University of Georgia, has looked into this too. find that workaholics often feel the need to keep going, even when it harms their health or relationships. And interestingly, perfectionists and extroverts are more prone to this behavior. That must be why I'm not afflicted as well by workaholism. Um, research also shows that for all their efforts, workaholics aren't necessarily better at their jobs. In fact, they often suffer from exhaustion and burnout, leading to more mistakes and lower productivity. But here's the kicker— technology is making it worse. With remote work and constant connectivity through Zoom and Slack, the boundaries between home and work life are disappearing, creating the perfect environment for workaholism to thrive. So yeah, as I said, how do you know? Here's a checklist for you if you want me to go through them again. Number 1, you constantly think about work even during downtime. Number 2, you feel guilty or anxious when you're not working. 3, you consistently work beyond what's expected or necessary. And 4, you struggle to switch off and relax. outside of work. There are some steps you can take to protect yourself. If this is sounding familiar, you can start by setting clear work hours and sticking to them. Take regular breaks to recharge, and don't hesitate to seek support, whether it's from a manager, mentor, mentor, or therapist. And actually, even practicing mindfulness can help you stay present and reduce stress, allowing you to regain control over your work habits. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottI have a question for you. What, when does being very keen on work and what you do turn into workaholic, workaholism, workaholism? That's a difficult word to say because I tend to, like, if I'm sitting here on a weekend or something, I'll read a book about marketing or I read a book about business or I read a book about growing something. I enjoy doing that. I couldn't think, I get joy from doing that, yet I wouldn't go and do work on a weekend because I'm a lazy bugger. But so where's the line?
Leanne ElliottWell, that for you sounds like a recovery activity. So you said, I I wouldn't go and work, but I'd happily read it, read a book about marketing. Well, you don't see that as work. Like you say, you're, you're gaining energy from the activity. The activity isn't taking energy away from you. So perhaps, perhaps that's one of the lines.
Al ElliottSo then if someone believes they're gaining energy by doing all the things on your 4 checklists, then they're not a workaholic, they are just enjoying work? Or is it still— it sounds like a blurred line.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think it'll be different for every individual. I think the key sign will be if there's other areas of your life slipping because of work. If your relationships are getting a bit tense because somebody's saying you're always at work, if you're not making those social gatherings because you'd rather work, if you're not spending time with your kids, you'd rather work. I think if it's starting to—
Al ElliottDepends what your kids are like.
Leanne ElliottTrue. I think, yeah, if it's starting to take away from other areas of your life and your more holistic fulfilment as a human, then it could be tipping into workaholism. And as we know, relationships are one of the main things that keep our juices going in terms of wellbeing. So, yeah. Yeah, it is a fine line, but I think it's, it's not— it's 15% that will fall into the, into the part where it's detrimental. And I imagine they're also the 15%, um, that, that might be experiencing symptoms of burnout alongside that. So there you go, workaholism. I will leave a link to the study and the article in the show notes. Al, what have you got?
Al ElliottWell, Le, you've heard of Cesar Millan, the dog whisperer. You've heard of horse whisperers. We've now got Gen Z whisperers. I saw it in the Guardian newspaper. I say I saw it in the Guardian newspaper, I didn't like lift the newspaper and read it in like a colonial sort of like way with my cup of coffee while someone waited on me hand and foot. I literally read it online. But in The Guardian, it was an article about the emergence of this new type of consultant, which they are calling themselves, I believe themselves, Gen Z Whisperers. They describe themselves as young advisors helping bridging the generational gap in the workplace. First up, these Gen Z Whisperers are on a mission to debunk some of the most persistent myths about the generation. We have all heard stereotypes like, um, that young people are flighty, they're always on their phone, they expect a corner office after 6 months on the job. Not sure that I've never heard that, but, but here's the thing. They might actually just be what they, what they're described as stereotypes. There's companies like Apprentivia and Fairy Job Mother. Yep. That's the real name. I checked twice. And they're stepping up to help employees not just attract— sorry, employers not just attract Gen Z talent, but actually retain them. Yeah. So they're focusing on this smarter marketing and really getting to the heart of what makes these young workers tick. Now, let's just be honest for a second. A multi-generational workplace has its issues, and we all know that, and we probably can't fix them all. But there are still some pretty common misunderstandings about Gen Z. For example, a lot of people, perhaps my generation, the boomer, might use the words entitlement. But here's something the article pointed out that hadn't occurred to me. Every generation has been called entitled by the ones before them. The boomers before me—I'm Gen X—the boomers before me called me entitled. I bet that my generation called you entitled. Do you remember when we were like all the young upstarts? So what's really interesting is how recent events have shaped Gen Z's approach to work because we've got the pandemic, we've got the cost of living crisis, we've got the the rise in remote work. They're not just news headlines; they're the backdrop to the Gen Z entry into the workforce. In truth, it's really kind of. all they know about work. So here's a nugget that caught my attention. Authenticity— I'm going to read this— authenticity is apparently the golden ticket when it comes to connecting with Gen Z, both as an employer and as a consumer. Now, gone are the days, my old days, when a celebrity endorsement was enough to sell a product. Do you remember, uh, do you remember the cricketer and his dog Drummer? People in the UK will.
Leanne ElliottWhen was Gary Lineker in his crisps?
Al ElliottThere you go. So this younger generation, the problem is they can smell inauthenticity from a mile away. But before we get too carried away and think we've cracked the formula to attracting and retaining Gen Z, Professor Bobby Duffy from King's College London warns us not to overgeneralize. Apparently, a lot of these perceived differences between generations don't actually hold up to scrutiny. It's a reminder at the end of the day, we are all individuals, not just members of a generation. That said, There are some concrete differences we need to pay attention to when we're talking about Gen Z. Some serious economic headwinds, higher rates of mental health issues, and also the ability to talk more openly about mental health issues. Menti be. And this is quite concerning. They've got less faith in public institutions than previous generations did at their age.
Leanne ElliottI can't imagine why.
Al ElliottWell, I know, but it's still quite concerning. And these aren't just statistics. They're actually shaping how the entire generation views work and their place in society. So I want to ask, what's the bottom line here? Well, according to the article, it's helpful to understand these generational trends. We shouldn't be getting too caught up in the labels. The key is to focus on the real issues affecting the younger workers rather than just relying on stereotypes or exaggerated claims. In other words, don't, don't overgeneralize. Whether you're managing a Gen Z employee or you're working alongside one, or maybe you are a Gen Z, remember that Good communication and mutual respect go a very long way. I think we've all got something to learn from each other. I mean, we've got the different generations in the workplace. Uh, we said last week, I think 50% of, uh, of people are managed by someone younger than them. So we just need to have this mutual respect. The idea is that Gen Z is just basically a different generation with different experiences. So let's not say they're entitled. Let's just say they've got a different outlook on life. Thoughts, Leah, as a psychologist?
Leanne ElliottUm, do you know what's funny is I saw something similar, um, talking about generations. And, um, and somebody who is Gen X saying my generation was always called the slacker generation. Um, I know that millennials were entitled. We were the devil in the noughties. Um, and yeah, I think it's youth. Youth is entitled. Youth is disruptive. Youth is impatient.
Al ElliottYouth is wasted on the young.
Leanne ElliottYouth is wasted on the young. And it's only when you're older, you know that and you realize you've wasted So you come resentful of all these young kids that aren't wasting it and trying to actually do something about it and change the world.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, I think it's youth culture. I don't think it's necessarily the Gen Z specifically. You're right, they've had a very different exposure, very different environment to grow up into. But that's also why we have generations as psychologists. And when we look at age as a factor within various studies because we all grew up with a different environment and that influences our social norms, our values, our way of thinking, our way of operating in the world. So yeah, Gen Z are different. Are they as entitled as, um, as, as every other generation before them? Probably. Yeah. I think as well, social media, man. Gen Z are educated. Gen Z are eloquent. They are emotionally intelligent because they've, they've got access to all this amazing content that gives them the vocabulary to talk about these things. I'm not sure mental health necessarily has got worse over the last 20 years. I think certain pockets and phases of, you know, the pandemic being a good example, have influenced poorer mental health overall. But I just wonder whether they have the vocabulary to talk about it a bit more. And then that's normalized by the social norms because they're not just dealing with their circle that lives in the 5-mile radius, they're dealing with people around the world. So yeah, it's interesting. And I think we'll We'll continue to have conversations like this, particularly as Gen Z enter into management roles, particularly as the Gen Alphas in— what are we on now? Probably another 5 to 8 years before the first Gen Alpha starts to join the workforce. So yeah, it's an interesting thing, but I agree, I think it's— we don't need something else being us and them, do we? The world is divided enough.
Al ElliottExcellent points, Leanne. Um, yeah, you should be a psychologist. What have you seen?
Leanne ElliottWell, another interesting article I saw this week came from Business Insider discussing how sick leave has changed since the pandemic and how it might be getting a little more complicated. There may even be a mention of the entitlement amongst Gen Z that you were talking about there, Al. So the article highlights that the US has seen a significant rise in sick leave, with platforms like Dayforce and Gusto reporting more employees taking time off. Experts say this is partly due to Gen Z's influence demanding time off without the guilt older generations often feel. According to the US Bureau of Labor, statistics, many workers still don't have access to sick paid leave, but for those who do, taking time off is becoming more common and acceptable. So HR expert Ru Dooley from Society for Human Resources Management attributes this shift to a cultural change. He notes that while older workers may have been conditioned to work relentlessly, younger generations feel entitled to prioritize their health, mental and physical. So this attitude is creating a new work culture where time off is less stigmatized. The article goes on to say that similar changes are happening in the UK. Research from the Chartered Institute of Personal Development— that's the CIPD— shows an increase in sick days post-pandemic. But according to Professor Sir Kerry Cooper—
Al Elliottthe OG, the GOAT—
Leanne Elliottyou know who he is. He's been on the pod. He is a former guest. He is professor of organizational psychology at the University of Manchester. As I said, you know him. Um, according to Sekeri, there's more to the story. Presenteeism is also on the rise. So many hybrid workers feel pressured to log in even when they're sick because working from home makes it easier. Presenteeism in our day was when your colleague would come in with a cold and within a week the entire office was down. The bigger question is, how should managers handle this? So both Dooley and Cooper agree that fostering long-term well-being over short-term productivity is crucial. True leadership lies in allowing employees the time to recover, which leads to better engagement and retention in the long run. Uh, new legislation is also playing a role in reshaping sick leave. For, um, instance, California recently increased the minimum sick days from 3 to 5, signaling a possible trend towards more supportive work environments across the US. So we have to ask, are we moving towards a future where taking sick leave is no longer seen as slacking off, but rather a necessary part of a balanced, healthy work life. Al's thoughts?
Al ElliottI don't think I'm qualified to step in on this because I have not had a job since 2001. Um, so I don't know what, you know, I don't, I don't have this sick leave thing. Although what I do know is that when you're self-employed, it's kind of tough because you don't go off sick because things have to get done. Shit has to get done. I like the idea that people are allowed to take sick leave. It does slightly terrify me that the US has just increased it, or California's increased it from 3 days to 5. So that means that— what's that, 5 over 365? I can't even do that maths, but it's not a lot.
Leanne ElliottIt's only one bout of flu, that, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah, exactly. So that's a little bit terrifying. But then the US has never really been great at vacations or sick days. Um, I'd like to think that we're moving towards a future of work where we talk about outcomes rather than inputs. And I'd like the idea that as long as the work gets done, it doesn't matter whether it takes someone 5 days a week or 4 days a week or 3 days a week. I also think that there should be a little bit of— there's a particular word and I can't think of it— like backupism, where every task has got maybe someone who can perhaps pick up from it if someone is sick. Because That's why you come into work when— well, there's 2 reasons you come into work when you're sick, uh, or ill, if you're from the UK. Uh, firstly, because you want to show everyone you're a martyr and you want everyone to go, oh my God, you're so, you're so brave. You— those lot can get in the bin. But the second is because something has to get done. And I think that having that sort of like that backup system where I can't come into work, but Sandra knows where I'm up to, and Sandra, do me a favor, click these 3 buttons, do this, just pop this report in there and it's done. And in fact, that's where AI could well come in. They could They could— AI could well be our backup system for work, uh, that if you can't get in, you can just defer to AI and it will do 80% of the job for you, and then you can pick up. But then that's probably a dangerous road to go down.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think the thing that concerns me is I understand the social norms of it. When I was in my, probably my mid, mid to late 20s, it was a badge of honour if you'd only had like one sick day in 3 years. And the reality was I was, I was ill many more times than that. And I'd go into work really unwell, usually make somebody else unwell, struggle for 3 weeks, couldn't shift this, this cold or whatever it was that I had, um, because I wasn't taking the time to rest and recover. So actually my productivity was probably down for 3 weeks. Whereas if I'd just taken 3 days off, then, you know, it would have, it would have, I would have bounced back quicker and my performance and productivity would have gone up. When I managed, I'd see people come in sick. I'd try and send them home. They were very engaged. They didn't want to. I think the logging in from home makes that really difficult. You know, I think I'd say if you're a leader, and I get it, especially if you're a founder, if you have a sick day, if you're not well enough to be in the office, if you've made that decision, I'm not physically or mentally well enough to be in the office today or be working today, then don't work. Because you logging in from home to make sure that you're there if the team needs you, or saying, oh, I'm taking it, taking a sick day, but if you need me, I'll answer my phone. It sets a precedent of what's expected within the company culture. And I think as time goes on, and we're seeing the increases in burnout, we're seeing the, you know, the decrease in physical health overall, and particularly with, in the UK, with the state of the NHS is in, in America as well, with the cost of medical care over there, we really don't want our people to push ourselves more than they should be. We want them to stay fit and healthy, and that also means giving them time to rest. recover. So yeah, that would be my— as an individual, it's up to you, isn't it? And you will, you'll find your, your happy place with it. If you are a founder, encourage people to take the time off they need. It's, um, it's the most basic of humanness, isn't it, if you're really unwell?
Al ElliottVery, very wise words indeed. We're going to take a very short break. We'll be back with part 2 of our segment on Fresh Voices and of course the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery. If you don't come back, then we're going to talk about you behind your back. See you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better? It can. And Are We All Just Status Seeking I am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.
Leanne ElliottI'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. Our second segment in September is called Fresh Voices, where we showcase the thought leaders that have caught our attention and share their fresh insights on the modern workplace. This week's fresh voice is Connie Hadley. Connie is the founder and chief scientist of the Institute for Life at Work and a research associate professor at Boston University. With a background in organizational psychology, Connie focuses on the future of work, team dynamics, psychological safety, employee wellbeing, and this might be up your street, Al, the integration of AI in management. She holds a PhD from Harvard University and an MBA from Wharton. A published author, Connie has won the Richard Beckhard Memorial Prize and was named in the Thinkers50 Radar Class of 2024. And this is actually where I stumbled across her. Before we dive into the highlights, let me ask, have you ever wondered how work-life balance is changing or how your workplace culture impacts your daily life? Connie touches on these crucial questions in her research and her fresh approach to integrating life and work. Let's hear directly from Connie. This clip is actually taken from a livestream between Connie and Stuart Cranor, the co-founder of Thinkers50. We join the conversation as Stuart is taking questions from the viewers, and Connie shares insights on team rituals and the pursuit of purpose at work. Frank Carlborg says, will become—
Al Elliottwill people become more or less purpose-oriented in the work they do?
Leanne ElliottI think there's— I think they're very much seeking more purpose. That's what I hear over and over again from my students and from the, the in the millennial and Gen Z generation that I survey. And I think that's a really positive trend. It doesn't mean— again, people like to sort of paint these trends as like black and white. So, okay, they don't care about money anymore. No, they still care about money. And financial stress is a major contributor to low well-being at work. So let's just say people still want money and they still want career advancement. They want growth opportunities. But in addition, I think more and more the expectations have risen. To feel a sense of purpose, to feel that this job that I'm doing makes a positive impact on the world. And that is a great thing. That's a great aspiration in my mind. It's not always perfectly achievable. In fact, one study I have right now going on with a group in Dubai, Cosmic Centaurs, is looking at little things like team rituals and how they can increase someone's sense of purpose at work. So it's kind of the team route, like a backdoor entry into getting more purpose. And Cosmos Centaurs has a variety of different kinds of rituals that they implement with their clients, including conversation starter cards. And we've seen in our survey and in a field study that they actually translate into people feeling more satisfied with their job and a greater sense of purpose and meaning. And it's not that the job changed, not that the company changed, but it's the people they worked with and the relationships that changed, and it really invigorated their sense of purpose.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt's a really interesting livestream, and I love how many questions were taken from, from the viewers. It made it a really dynamic conversation. One thing that, that really stuck out to me was around team rituals, and that's a part of culture that we don't talk about very much, but is very, very popular and, um, and well-researched in the literature. Um, so yeah, I think it is underappreciated, particularly as a way of creating those stronger work workplace bonds. And I mean workplaces in on-site, in office, remote. Even those brief moments of personal connection, a few minutes of chit-chat before a meeting, perhaps meeting a pet over Zoom, can build connection. Um, and I think in time will help to, to build those relationships where psychological safety will start to be fostered. It'll give people a deeper sense of purpose at work, a greater sense of belonging. I just think it's, it's important. And what Connie really emphasises is the intentional efforts that need to be made to foster this human connection. Intention was a big word for us on the podcast last year. So, so it's nice to, nice to see that it's still being talked about.
Al ElliottYeah, definitely. And I think the, this silent pandemic that, that we're not really talking about is this pandemic of loneliness. I think it's probably come back from the actual pandemic where we were all just tucked in our house and weren't allowed to see anyone. Um, and that was cool for, for a lot of people, and it was actually quite nice as a break for most people. But then we're now at the point where a lot of people perhaps have grown up and don't know how to— don't have social skills. So they are lonely. They don't know how to be social at work. Where's the boundary? That's a really tough thing to do. And loneliness is really having this sort of adverse impact on retention, on job satisfaction, on productivity, and anything which is basically helping you build in a thriving workplace. The other thing is that loneliness doesn't just affect people in teams, it's affecting the senior leaders. We talked about this about 6 months ago, maybe about, about doing the, uh, what we call it, the Lonely Leader. Was that what we were calling it?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWe're going to do a program around the Lonely Leader. We probably still should, because being a leader anyway is lonely. There's not many people you can talk to about your problems, because if you're at the top, then all your problems stop at the top. But it's kind of— it has this feel, this pervasive thing throughout the entire workplace if you're not careful, because that can come down from the top. And then again, we talked about diminished productivity, low engagement. All of that comes from loneliness, whether it's from the top, whether it's from the team, or whether it's a mixture of all the others.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And there are some that will argue that this loneliness might be exacerbated by remote work, by hybrid work. And what I liked about what Connie had to say about hybrid work was about its potential. I think, you know, as psychologists, we see this hybrid work as the greatest experiment of our time in terms of organisational psychology. It's a shift that happened so quickly and never would have without the pandemic. So, I really like how Connie talks about that balance of hybrid work and how it does offer challenges and opportunities when it comes to building connection. And specifically with remote work, trust within teams. If you don't trust your people, oh, it's just— you're starting, you're starting from a really hard point. I think as well, you know, the flexibility that hybrid work can offer is really valuable, particularly in terms of parents, caregivers. It really does allow us to have that work-life integration in a way that we never have before. But Connie's right, it is hard to manage, and it's something that we're still figuring out how to manage. And it is again emphasising is kind of that need for trust between managers and their team. It's not just about allowing people to work remotely, it's about building the systems that are going to help people to feel connected, feel productive, feel trusted regardless of where they're working. I do think this hybrid model will be the future. I don't think there's any could about it, but I think we're still in that experimental phase. I think it's going to require a lot of thought before we get it right.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. A really, really good conversation. The entire link is in the show notes, uh, or just search for Connie Hadley and I'm sure you will find it. Okay, so it's time for our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Just in case you don't know, Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist. Fancy, fancy words. She's also managed teams across the world and is an expert in workplace culture, so you'd hope she knows what she's talking about. And you know what? Up until now, she really does. Leanne, are you ready for question number I am ready. So this person writes in and says— in fact, we've got a name for this one, Alex. We're allowed to use a name. Alex writes in and says, as the owner of a midsize marketing agency, I recently made the decision to renovate our office space into an open-plan layout. Nice. The goal was to foster more collaboration and creativity amongst our team, especially given the influx of Gen Z employees. I was excited about the prospect of a more dynamic, interactive work environment. However, things haven't quite panned out the way that I envisaged. I've noticed that many of our younger employees, particularly those from Gen Z, are constantly wearing noise-canceling headphones throughout the workday. While I understand the need for focus time, it does seem to have created an unintended barrier to the spontaneous discussions and idea sharing I was hoping to encourage. I'm concerned we're missing out on valuable collaborative opportunities and that the open office might actually be hindering Communication rather than promoting it. I don't know what to do. Should I go back to how it was? Should I ban headphones? Leah, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottI wouldn't ban headphones. I think that'd be, that would be the best, most positive note to get off on. Um, do you know what this is? And we've actually, we've actually talked around this quite a bit the last few episodes, I think. So it's probably worth going back if you haven't listened to recent episodes. If we look at the research, then there's a lot of research around design. check out Dr. Craig Knight. Go back to our episodes from Clark Wilde Design Week. He talks a lot about, um, how, um, lean as a concept isn't particularly good for us. All the research shows it sucks creativity, um, productivity, performance, that we do want more collaborative workspaces. So it's— it sounds like you're on the right track creating a more collaborative workplace. But as we heard from Ed Williams last Thursday, who's the CEO and founder of Candy Kittens, who's just opened a very co—
Al Elliottum, co-working, cohesive, cooperative—
Leanne Elliotthe's just opened a very collaborative workplace called the Sweet Factory. Um, it's, it's not just about the environment. It, it is of course about creating zones where people need to do the work they need to do, whether that be sitting at a desk, whether it be having conversation, but it's also the psychosocial environment that you're creating to facilitate those interactions. It is about psychological safety, it is about trust, it's about building relationships, it's about that intentionality. People aren't just going to come to a place and go, oh, I know exactly how to use this, if they've never had it before. And I think as well, there's that— what concerns me in your question, and maybe this is just the way you wrote it, that you said I made the decision too. It's a collaborative effort because it's a collaborative workspace. Again, Ed Williams said last week, you know, he talked to the team about how they're currently working, how they currently like to work. So he created zones that were like a coffee shop, like a kitchen, like a sofa, like a desk. Um, so I think that sounds like there's a— maybe you've skipped the step of consultation with your people. Get curious, find out, ask them how they're finding the space, Ask them what they don't like about it. Ask them, is there a reason that you're wearing headphones? Is it because it's too noisy? Do we need to create a quiet space? It could be that this individual is neurodiverse and they need to block out some of the surroundings to get into that state of flow for that high-focus work. There's lots of assumptions that you're making in, I think, how your people work and getting the most out of them. The other thing as well, in terms of the ideation, that does require intention. Yes, you get spontaneous things, but actually, some of the research again shows that if you give people a lead-up, a warning that this ideation is coming, give them a brief, and then actually set a date and time for this, people will come with more unique ideas than they would in a spontaneous brainstorming session. So, it's not that easy, I'm afraid, a ping-pong table in the break room and a couple of beanbags. We need some intention and we need to match that physical environment with the psychosocial environment that we want to create, and that's what workplace culture is.
Al ElliottDo you know what? It's a really good point. I hadn't really picked up on the fact that, um, Alex had defined what the workplace was going to be. I also really enjoyed your idea of planned spontaneity. I think that's really quite funny. Um, but, um, yeah, I think it's a bit like saying, um, doing an exercise plan for someone and going, right, well, I've made you an exercise plan without even meeting you or without asking you what your goals are. Uh, you know, it could be like some people want to get what— want dramatic weight loss, some people want to build muscle. Ask them what they want and build that for them. Um, I think also there's, there's other things like if you're not careful, you just hear the stories of someone like Uber who put a slide— actually wasn't Uber, I think it was the, um, who's the guys who went bust? Um, who did, um—
Leanne ElliottGood sign.
Al ElliottWell, they did, um, shared workspace, um, WeWork.
Leanne ElliottOh yeah.
Al ElliottAnd they put a slide, I'm sure they put a slide in the, in the office or something thinking that'll be a lot of fun. And of course it, it didn't save them from going bankrupt. So don't listen necessarily to what other people are doing. As Leanne said, it's a really smart idea to go and ask people what they want, how they want to work. And it could be that, you know, that you have got the right environment. It's just people don't feel comfortable to use it because it's totally different to how it was before. We don't know how you had it before, Alex, but I hope that's useful. I think what Leanne said was the key message there is that you have defined how the the environment's going to be. And with respect, you might pay the rent, but it's not down to you how it's, how it's defined. Question number 2, Lee. This is from the owner of a law firm. Now, this is quite interesting as well. For 30 years, our law firm has operated on a traditional schedule with solicitors and staff expected to be in the office from 9 till 6, sometimes later. However, we're facing mounting pressures, particularly from our junior associates.
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Al Elliottand support staff to offer more flexible working hours. While I recognise the potential benefits of flexible working, I have concerns about its impact on our practice. For example, client expectations, court schedules, and the collaborative nature of our work— This person does definitely write like a solicitor. The collaborative nature of our work often requires in-person meetings and immediate availability. I'm worried that flexible hours could lead to missed opportunities, communication gaps, or a decline in the quality of our service. Moreover, and this is the key bit, Lee, some of our senior partners are resistant to this change, citing concerns about supervision and mentoring of younger staff. Can I successfully implement a more flexible work environment without compromising our high standards? I'm keen to modernise, but I want to make sure that any changes we make will benefit both our staff and our clients, and I'm guessing the senior partners. Tough one, Lee.
Leanne ElliottYes, a lot wrapped up in there. And I think it's particularly tricky in a more traditional profession such as law. There's, you know, been a way things have been done for, for a very long, long time. I think first of all, and again, and it's just these questions lead nicely to some previous guests we've had, in terms of a bit of inspiration, go back and listen to Jodie from Thrive Law. Yeah, yeah, I'll leave a link in the show notes. She has completely disrupted what it is to to, to lead a law firm, to work in a law firm. They work flexibly, they work remotely. There is many different things that they do using technology, using intention in terms of, of where, um, where people are when they need to collaborate. Do go and have a listen to that because I think it will help you maybe just, just start to, to look towards a different mindset of how things can work. In terms of the senior partners, Nobody likes change, but as an older person, I really don't like change because it's kind of harder to adjust to, and you feel a bit more energy needs to be invested into it because it is a bit harder to learn new things as we get older. So yeah, and that's understandable. People don't like change, but what they won't like is the ambiguity and the lack of clarity around the change. It sounds like at the minute you're asking lots of questions. And what-ifs. And what your senior partners probably really want is, this is what we're going to do, this is how it's going to work, these are some of the problems I've identified, these are some of the solutions I want to discuss with you, let's, let's pick it apart and see if we can make this work. They want to be brought into the change and they want that clarity at the same time. Finally, I think, you know, flexible working is, as we've heard, it is becoming more and more of a legal right. And you'll know, you're in law in the UK, so it might be that at some point your hand is going to be going to be twisted into making this work, whether it be for a member of staff or an entire team or indeed the whole organisation. So, I think it's modernisation that has to happen. I think you know that to have got it to this point of the conversation that it is. One thing I think to look at is that there always seems to be this thought that it's one or the other. It can be somewhere in between. You could have core working hours where everyone needs to be online available between 10 and 4. Aside from that, or 11 and 3, whatever you— again, as I suggest, employee consultation is important in this. Um, whatever's going to work for the business, for its customers. I don't think your customers, your clients, are going to be as, as bothered as you think they are, as long as there's always going to be somebody that they can get hold of. It might be the case you have people on call who are available between 8 and 10 and 5 and 8. There's loads of different ways of looking at it to give people the flexibility that that they want from their lives and will appreciate, um, in their work, and also making sure that the business needs are met, the client needs are met. So I think, yeah, start with that episode with Thrive Law, Jodie Hill. Have a listen to her, maybe even pick up a conversation with her. I'm sure she would love to chat to you about what she's been doing at Thrive. I would then start to, to talk to your partners about, okay, well, what, what are the non-negotiables? You said something about court schedules, maybe they're, you know, set in stone. Where are the days perhaps that we could have a bit more flexibility? What if we did have core working hours? What benefit do you think we'll see as an organisation by having flexible working? It could be that actually, as an office, you're open longer throughout the day, where people are actually working less or more flexibly within that. There could be lots of different perks. So, I think, yeah, I think it's one of these things that you, you, sounds like you want to do. It sounds like modernisation.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottis, is coming whether we like it or not. And I think it's within your gift to just, just explore and experiment. And, and I think as you, Al, said, you always say it's not— was it, it's not a one-way door or something?
Al ElliottYeah, that's the Jeff Bezos. It's a one-way door. You can implement change and he wants it a two-way door where you can wind that change back if it doesn't really work. And I think that's a, that's an important thing and something which I'm guessing lawyers particularly would not consider anything being a two-way door because they're always thinking there's a cost to, you know, a cost to winding something back or going back on yourself. But actually these things, yeah, you can do that. Sorry, I interrupted you.
Leanne ElliottNo, absolutely. And I think that's the thing. Look at it like a pilot. You know, once you come up with a structure or a schedule that you think is going to work, pilot it for a couple of weeks from when, see what works, what breaks, if it's even possible, you know, and give it a, you know, a good chance, an honest chance when you do that. The only thing you mentioned there that, that is, is a tricky thing to consider is your senior partner's concerns around mentoring, supervising, developing younger talent. Yes, that is much more challenging in, um, in remote hybrid environments without intentionality. It could be that again it's just these core hours so that senior, senior partners and junior partners or junior associates— is that what you call them?— are always in the office between 10 and 3, Tuesdays and Thursdays, always. So there's that opportunity for that spontaneous conversation, but there's also some intentional sessions in there as well. It just requires a bit more organization. We can't be lazy as leaders anymore in a world with flexible and, and remote working. There needs to be more intention. And actually, I think with that intention, we'll become better leaders for it because we're being more mindful of what our people need And when they need it. Well said.
Al ElliottI think if you could create the right schedule, like the previous answer, create the right environment, create the right schedule that works for a lot of people, do it on a consultative basis with the rest of your team. And in terms of supervision, I mean, I know supervision is a legal term, so I know you probably don't mean they want to supervise them, literally supervise them, like, you know, like, um, like in Suits, but Louis Litt. But, um, if someone is of a younger generation, they want to do well, they will make time for this mentorship. So I don't think you need to worry too much about that, because if, if someone doesn't make time for mentorship, then they clearly don't want to be there. And also, the, the potential mistakes and potential costs are going to be tiny compared to when this younger generation goes, screw this, I'm out of here, this is rubbish, I'm going to go and work for Jodie Hill at Thrive Law because that is a much better place to work.
Leanne ElliottDefinitely, definitely. And I think that's, that's the final thing to say is that, you know, supervision can be done online. I think that, I think face-to-face is really important for development, and I think it needs to be a part of the development plan. But I was supervised throughout my chartership remotely. Um, my coaching is supervised remotely. We are offered coaching from HubSpot for our podcast, and our community manager has office hours every few weeks, a couple of hours, and we'll just pop in if we have a question, and some other people will as well, and we'll have a chat. And so there's, there's lots of ways to play with, to try to experiment. The days of the office, even in law firms, strictly in the office, I think, are getting further and further away from the future of work. So, it's time to innovate.
Al ElliottGreat answer. Great answer. We have the 3rd and final question, which is kind of, it's funny because I chose this because it kind of fits in with a lot of things we've been talking about today. So this person is the owner of a small graphic design studio. They say, I'm struggling to attract and retain young talent. And you're like, okay, I heard that before. But this is different, you see. Recently we lost 2 junior designers to a larger firm. Their exit interviews revealed they were lured away by flashy perks like unlimited vacation time, in-office gyms, and hefty signing bonuses. Now, as a small business, we simply can't match these lavish offerings. Our profit margins are tight and we don't have the resources for expensive benefits and packages. However, I know we offer a great work environment with opportunities for creativity and growth that aren't always available in larger corporations. What non-monetary benefits can we offer that would appeal to Gen Z and younger millennials? How can we compete with these big boys without breaking the bank?
Leanne ElliottI empathize. It's, it's, it's hard. And I think this is always going to be, always going to be a case. And I think in any creative as well, it's, it's, you're going to have that same switch between in-house and agency that people are going to want to try throughout their careers. It's just the nature of the beast, I'm afraid. If you're a small business, corporates are always going to have more money and resources to throw at attracting talent. Um, that's why, you know, Deloitte and, and organizations like that will be renowned for having the very best young talent. That said, in terms of your question, what are the things you can do to, to attract a Gen Z, to retain a Gen Z, that isn't monetary? What we know from the research, well-being is massive. Well-being is huge. So making sure that you have a good sick policy, making sure that you have a generous holiday plan, making sure that there's guilt-free— it's guilt-free time taken if they need it, that holiday or that That's sick leave. Run your 12-month stress test every year, which you should be doing anyway, um, for HSE standards in the UK. Show that you are investing in people's well-being, in their whole self that they, they bring to the workforce. The other thing we know about Gen Z, they're massive into training and development. Yes, big corporations are going to have more budgets to, to throw at that, but what you will find from any Any person in their mid to late 30s and above who has worked in smaller companies in their early career will tell you they learned more in those years in a small business than they ever did working in a corporate later on, because you have access to so much. They have access to you, the founder, the entrepreneur. They have access to, to client work they probably wouldn't even come near in a larger organization. Um, so I think it's really emphasizing the training and development that people will get organically and intentionally just being part of a small business. That is an incredible perk you can offer to Gen Z. And with that, be realistic about the time that you're likely to hold on to people. If you could hold on to a member of staff for 3 years, you're probably in the top 20% of organizations in terms of engagement for younger people. I think finally, other benefits that work really well— volunteering, really good. Um, a great sense of purpose, a great sense of meaning, a great sense of belonging that's created through volunteering, through work. We know as well from the research, it's one of the few perks or benefits that actually does have a direct impact on a person's wellbeing because of this sense of purpose and meaning it gives people and the relationships they build through that. So that could be something really cool to look at. And the Gen Z love that as well, more sustainable organisations that are giving back and contributing to society. Look at B Corp. B Corp could be a really interesting thing to do. Again, go back to Ed Williams from last Thursday, he talked about B Corp and how it's a brilliant blueprint to build a business from day one, and how actually the feedback he's getting from the young people he's bringing into the business is they're actually seeking out B Corps to work for because of their commitments they're making in terms of ethics, sustainability, etc. So there's loads of different things that you can do, but it's going to take— it's going to take some work, it's going to take some intention, it's going to take some clever marketing. You're going to have to feed that into your recruitment process as well. And the final thing I'd say on that It's recruitment and retention because they feed into each other. Because if we're not bringing the right person into our business who is looking for meaning and purpose in their work, who is looking for fast, scrappy development as what it means to be part of an SME, if they are more driven by financial rewards than they are, um, positive well-being or better work-life balance or a good holiday package, Then they are going to always go off to the big corporates once they have some experience on their, on their CV. So, I think it's as much about understanding the values and intentions and vision that the people you interview have for their career, and does that fit with what a small business can offer and what you need from them in terms of retention, in terms of their tenure. So, lots of different ideas there, loads of things you can do, but it will require a bit of planning.
Al ElliottYeah. And I'm gonna have a look, give you a little bit of tough love, OP, here. You run a design studio. Your job is to design things that make people happy. So it sounds to me like you are a little bit sore that you've just lost 2 really good people to a big firm. Put that to one side. Start— stop crying about it. And again, I told you it's tough love. Stop crying for a second and go, how can I design an experience where people are going to absolutely love it here. This is what you do for a living. You are so creative. You're a designer. You can create something amazing. Think about what Leanne just said there. See, I'm that excited, just smashed my microphone. Think about what Leanne just said there. Think about more intentionally going forward, what are you going to— how are you going to fix it, rather than being a bit bitter that someone who you spent 2 years training has now disappeared off to a another agency and you feel like you have to start again. As Leanne said, is it Virgin who says that train them so they can leave, treat them so they'll stay? Is that right, Lee?
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly.
Al ElliottTough love over. We're back to nice people now. I'm sure you'll work it out. Just listen to what Leanne said there. It's really, really good advice. And I said, go, go back and you've got lots and lots and lots of resources in our back catalog. Almost every single episode is— in fact, every single episode is about creating amazing workplaces. But a lot of them are about what you can offer to your employees to make them want to stay. And just think slightly outside the box. There is that— there are so many reasons. If you think about differentiation in terms of design, in terms of sales, in terms of marketing, you know, there are people who use— not maybe not Tom's Shoes anymore, that's a bit, you know, not quite as in vogue. But when Tom's Shoes first came out, they took over a huge portion of the market because they were giving one pair of shoes to someone in need as they sold a pair of shoes. Zappos weren't, Clarks weren't. That's fine. People still shopped at Clarks and Zappos, but their market— Tom's market was a very specific type of people, and they cornered it. If you can get that right and you can corner that market of your candidates, you're going to win because they won't want to go and work for a big design firm because it's soulless.
Leanne ElliottAnd for more inspiration, go back to last Thursday's episode as well, our interview with, uh, Paul Barnes and Amanda Wilcox from MAPS. They have Majority Gen Z, and there they've had struggles with retention over the years, and now they're in a place where they're enjoying really high levels of engagement and retention. So, some good ideas there, and they invest heavily in professional and career development there as well. So, some really good inspiration from that. And as I said, Ed Williams as well. But yeah, there's loads you can do, but I think it's, it's, um, you're gonna have to work for it. I'm afraid that's just the way it is. With them. And the market is shifting. We are going into a downturn, so you might find your retention just naturally ticks up anyway. But we don't want that. We want it, we want it to tick up because we know exactly why and what we're doing is ticking up our employee engagement.
Al ElliottYou want people to want to come to work for you, not, not want to leave.
Leanne ElliottYeah, especially as an SME. That's your— that's what's in your superpower as an SME. You can be more agile, you can change things more frequently, you can be more creative. There's not much policy, as much bureaucracy. You can, you can again play with it. I just think we all need to play a bit. We take— I know, I know these are big serious problems, but the solutions don't have to be big and serious. They can be experimental. They can be, let's try, let's talk about it, let's collaborate. That in itself is going to start to build that trust, that authenticity that you talked about earlier, Al, which the, the Gen Zs love too.
Al ElliottAbsolutely great advice. Okay, so I think that's it for this week. A quick reminder, if you like to hear stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then our Thursday episodes are the one for you.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you like to keep up with the latest news and love a good Agony Aunt or Aunt segment, and you liked today's episode, then tune in next Tuesday where we will bring you more of our weekly news roundup, our September segment called Fresh Voices, and of course our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery where I answer all your questions.
Al ElliottIf you've enjoyed this episode, then the best thing you can do is leave us a review. So that's a 5-star rating, please, and a quick written review. It really does make an enormous difference to the podcast. And also maybe just share it with someone, just say, ah, you might quite like this. We saw a great post on LinkedIn, someone saying this was a fun podcast. It was one of the, like, they recommended 3 HR podcasts and we were the third, and they said this is a good fun one. So that's exactly what we're trying to do. So help us out, help, help a brother out.
Leanne ElliottYes, that was a team at Valamis who posted about that. And apparently, yeah, we're one of their team members' favorite podcasts. So thank you to you, whoever you are, and for everyone at Valmis. It was, it was very— we're very touched, weren't we?
Al ElliottWe were. Identify yourself, person at Valmis who likes us. So we will see you next time with one of our interviews. Not gonna tell you who it is because, uh, it's quite cool. So, well, anything else to add, love, before we go?
Leanne ElliottNo, no, what you said— like, subscribe. Um, it really is the best way to support, support the show so we can bring you more conversations, more expert guests, and, and more— do more to help you create awesome, awesome workplaces.
Al ElliottOkay, see you soon. Bye-bye. Love you. Bye. Al, what have you got?
Leanne ElliottJust waiting for your— why I left such a big gap? I don't No.
Al ElliottDon't actually hold up under scrutiny.
Leanne ElliottScrutiny?
Al ElliottApparently.
Leanne ElliottScrew-to-knee. That's how you can remember it.
Al ElliottThank you.
Leanne ElliottYou're welcome. Was that so good it made you drop your pencil?
Al ElliottIt was and got out of focus as well. Let me just check my camera.
Leanne ElliottCreating a new work—
Al ElliottYou can do this.
Leanne ElliottYou can do it. Scientist of the Institute for Life and Work at— nope, do that again. Chief science— science founder and chief scientist of the Institute for Work at—
Al ElliottWhat day is it today?
Leanne ElliottWell, this is— well, that's a confusing question.
Al ElliottLet's do all that again.