Episode 131 · 26 September 2024 · 1:04:35
Do you work with a psychopath? With Dr Abigail Marsh
Featuring Abigail Marsh
Do you work with a psychopath? With Dr Abigail Marsh
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What is psychopathy (and what it isn't)
interview#psychopathy#definition#podcast
Person-first language: why "a person with psychopathy" matters
Why the scariest psychopaths are the ones you don't notice
interview#psychopathy#workplace#hidden-traits
Lived experiences and red flags to watch for
Can you actually spot a psychopath at work?
interview#psychopathy#workplace#spotting
Industries that attract psychopathic traits
interview#psychopathy#industries#attraction
Extreme altruism: the opposite of psychopathy
interview#altruism#psychopathy#opposite
The rise of self-diagnosis and pop psychology
A compelling lived experience story
Al and Leanne take the psychopathy screening test
interview#psychopathy#screening#test
Show notes
Do You Work With a Psychopath? — with Dr Abigail Marsh
Guest: Dr Abigail Marsh — Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience at Georgetown University, author of The Fear Factor, and one of the world's leading researchers on psychopathy and extreme altruism.
When we think of psychopaths, names like Ted Bundy or Hannibal Lecter come to mind. But what if we told you that psychopathy is much more common than you think—and that you might have already worked with someone who has these traits?
Dr Abigail Marsh joins Al and Leanne to unpack the reality of psychopathy in the workplace. They explore why people with psychopathic traits are often invisible rather than obvious, which industries attract them, and how leaders can spot the signs before the damage is done. Plus, they dig into the fascinating opposite end of the spectrum: extreme altruism—and why some people are hardwired to care.
Top 3 Takeaways
Psychopaths are not obvious. The most dangerous people with psychopathic traits are the ones you'd never suspect—charming, successful, and easy to trust. It's the quiet manipulation and lack of remorse that should raise alarms, not the Hollywood caricature.
Some industries attract psychopathic traits. While only 1–2% of the general population meet clinical criteria, certain roles that reward callousness, risk-taking, and instrumental behaviour tend to draw higher proportions of people with these traits.
It's a spectrum, not a category. Psychopathy exists on a continuum—and at the opposite end lies extreme altruism. Understanding the full spectrum helps us recognise traits in ourselves and others without resorting to labels.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team Can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Abigail MarshI think a lot of people conflate psychopathy with serial killers. You know, people think of characters like Hannibal Lecter from The Silence of the Lambs or the Joker from the Batman series. These traits are slightly more likely to be elevated in men than in women, but there are women who are psychopathic. Again, they're not always violent, but they're certainly more likely than the average person to be violent. You definitely know people who are highly psychopathic. We all do, right? If it's 1 to 2% of the population and the average person has a social network of between 100 and 200 people, we all know psychopathic people. And he knew he was doing badly because he got to the very last expression in the set and said, you know, I don't know what that expression's called, but I know that's what people look like right before you stab them. So you hire somebody who's got a background that seems a little erratic. You know, there's like parts of their bio that don't quite make sense or maybe seem like too good to be true. And then money starts disappearing and there's a, you know, a lot of stories that don't make sense. And then it turns out there's been a huge amount of embezzlement.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of work and build an amazing workplace culture.
Al ElliottWelcome, welcome. It is Thursday today, so this is our regular Thursday interview series. If you like to keep abreast of the latest news and love a good agony aunt, agony aunt segment, you'll like Tuesday episodes too, where we bring you our weekly news roundup, our brand new segment called Hot Takes with our bank of workplace experts, and of course our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne.
Leanne ElliottBut today we're going deep into the world of psychopathy with world expert Dr. Abby Marsh. When you think about psychopathy, you probably think serial killer, right? Hannibal Lecter or Ted Bundy. But as you've heard, most psychopathic people aren't violent. They just think a little bit differently. 1 to 2% of the population are psychopathic. To put that into some context, the United Kingdom's population is equivalent to just under 1% of the total world population. So there are more psychopathic people in the world than there are Brits.
Al Elliott1 to 2%. So that means that if you own a business with 50-ish employees, statistically speaking, one member of your team will be a psychopath. If you have 200 customers, 4 of them will be psychopathic. I've worked in businesses where I suspect the, the number is slightly higher than that. And if you're an employee at one of the 1,100 firms in the world with more than 10,000 employees, you could be working with literally thousands. So yes, pathological conditions such as psychopathy are important to understand if you're a manager, a leader, or a business owner. In fact, it is vitally important to recognise that a good percentage of your team think and work in a slightly different way. It's so important because you can then provide them with the best support possible to help them thrive and perform at work. Now, if you don't, they're going to leave you and they're going to work for someone who does understand how they tick. There's also a broader responsibility here. Back in episode 79, Dr. Sarah Hughes, the CEO of Mind, talked about the importance of understanding just how common mental illness is. And how As the conversation moves forward, it's crucial that we expand the conversation to include pathological conditions, and that's what we're doing today with the help of Dr. Abby Marsh.
Leanne ElliottDr. Abby Marsh is a professor in the Department of Psychology and the Interdisciplinary Neuroscience Program at Georgetown University. She has a PhD in social psychology from Harvard University and did her postdoctorate research at the National Institute of Mental Health. You may have seen her TED Talk, which has over 2.5 million views. Bet there's a lot of psychopaths amongst that 2.5. You may have bought her book Fear Factor. You may even have visited Psychopathy Is, the website she co-founded to dispel myths around psychopathy. And today I'll be asking her the questions all leaders, managers, and employees want to know. Questions like, what makes a psychopath? Are they all scary? And am I working with one? And what's the opposite of a psychopath?
Al ElliottYes, and Leanne also asked which politicians Dr. Marsh thought were psychopaths. You know you don't get a prize. Do certain types of jobs suit psychopaths better? And how you can use Dr. Marsh's free online diagnostic tool to test whether you might have psychopathic tendencies yourself. Oh, and we thought it was only fair to find out how psychopathic we were ourselves, so So a couple of days ago, we took Dr. Marsh's diagnostic, which you can find on her website. The link's in the show notes, don't worry. And we'll be telling you what we found out at the end of the episode. We've not told each other yet.
Leanne ElliottMight be surprised or not. So let's go and meet Dr. Abby Marsh and find out exactly what a psychopath is and whether we should actually be using that term at all.
Abigail MarshUm, my name is Abby Marsh. I'm a professor of psychology and neuroscience and cognitive science at Georgetown University. And I'm probably best known for the research I do on the neural and cognitive basis of both psychopathy and altruism. So basically, I'm trying to understand why people care about other people or why they don't.
Leanne ElliottI have to ask, and it's a basic question, but one I'm sure is maybe misunderstood. What is a psychopath?
Abigail MarshPeople who are psychopathic absolutely are misunderstood. I think a lot of people conflate psychopathy with serial killers, with sort of profound amounts of violence, people who were irredeemable, and often who look obviously malign. You know, people think of characters like Hannibal Lecter from The Silence of the Lambs or the Joker from the Batman series. And psychopathy is both a little more and a little less scary than most people think of it. People who are psychopathic, first of all, are pretty common. So people who have clinically significant levels of psychopathy represent 1 to 2% of the population. So that's a relatively common disorder. And the features that define psychopathy are not extreme violence. Many people, probably most people who are psychopathic are not violent. However, it's characterized by being very socially dominant, so having a desire for social dominance and often achieving it, being relatively fearless, so relatively immune to the risk of threat or punishment and engaging in a lot of risky behavior because of it, being mean or callous, so relatively insensitive to other people's suffering or distress and willing to cause other people's suffering.
Al ElliottYeah.
Abigail Marshsuffering or distress to achieve one's own goals. And finally, being relatively disinhibited. So kind of likely to do fantastical or unwise things on a lark without a lot of pre-planning. And those 3 traits together, each one of those traits can cause somebody to cause problems sometimes, but only when you have them together would we call somebody truly psychopathic. These traits are slightly more likely to be elevated in men than in women. But there are women who are psychopathic. It's just less likely to manifest in women as physical aggression, whereas in men who are psychopathic, again, they're not always violent, but they're certainly more likely than the average person to be violent. But the really critical thing to understand about psychopathy is that it doesn't announce itself. There's a very famous book about psychopathy called The Mask of Sanity, and the idea is that people who are psychopathic do have a profound deficit in certain personality features, like the capacity for empathy and caring about other people. However, you can't tell in brief conversation or by looking at them. There's nothing obviously different about them. And in fact, people who are psychopathic often have a lot of real sort of social advantages. They often are really, really fun to talk to, often very charismatic or charming, and not in a way that seems obviously superficial or canned, in a way that seems really genuine. And so, um, in short, it's really easy to like people who are psychopathic, at least when you first meet them, um, and get to know them. And the, uh, problems that they have interacting with people and caring about them only announce themselves slowly over time.
Leanne ElliottWell, you said you don't call them a psychopath anymore. What should we be calling them?
Abigail MarshA person with psychopathy.
Leanne ElliottA person with psychopathy.
Abigail MarshJust like we would say somebody who has depression is a person with depression. We don't call them a depressive. You know, we used to. Um, and I should note, I'm not a clinical psychologist. I'm a research psychologist. Um, but clinicians used to call people with depression depressives, right? But because we now view that as sort of demeaning to refer to people as their disorders, so we use person-first language. It doesn't roll off the tongue. And, uh, that is admittedly a cost. Clear communication is important.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Abigail MarshBut I also think it's important to remember that psychopathy is a disorder. Nobody chooses to end up with this disorder. And the problem is that It's hard to keep in mind 2 different things, right? People with psychopathy have a disorder. It has all the hallmarks of a clinical disorder. It genuinely is. It's just as much a disorder, a psychological disorder, as autism or schizophrenia or depression or anorexia. And that means the person who has it didn't choose to have it. That means that they, um, you know, likely have it because of a combination of genetic and environmental reasons. And it also means they can get better, right? And we should treat them compassionately. We should try to get them the care that they need because then they will be much more likely to get better. And everybody benefits. So those things are all true simultaneously. People who are psychopathic do terrible things to other people sometimes, right? Again, not always, but a lot of the time. That is one of the features of the disorder, and it can be very hard to feel compassion and a desire to help people who do terrible things to other people. I get that, right? I've been a victim of violent crime myself. I don't know if the person who hurt me was psychopathic, but it's not that I don't understand.
Al ElliottYeah.
Abigail Marshthe desire for vengeance and retribution and for that person to get punished who hurts you. I get it. However, I also know that the desire for vengeance and retribution isn't going to get us to the kind of society we want, where people with psychopathy get better instead of worse and victimize fewer people in the future.
Al ElliottOkay, so we know what it is and what the correct term is, but that doesn't mean that we feel any more comfortable around someone who we're told is psychopathic?
Leanne ElliottI'm a psychologist, and even I had a lot of questions about this. For example, are there good psychopathic traits and bad psychopathic traits? And does a certain combination make somebody more scary?
Abigail MarshWhat makes people who are profoundly psychopathic scary is how not obvious they are. You, you have interacted with very psychopathic people your whole life. You definitely know people who are highly psychopathic. We all do. Right? If it's 1 to 2% of the population and the average person has a social network of between 100 and 200 people, we all know psychopathic people. The nonprofit organization that I co-founded called Psychopathy Is has the tagline, we all know someone with psychopathy. This is an issue that is relevant to everybody because it's not a rare disorder. The problem is that you generally can't tell the people who are psychopathic unless you really know their behavior well in a variety of contexts, right? If somebody who's psychopathic wants you to like them, you genuinely will most of the time, because when people who are psychopathic are trying to charm people, they usually succeed, right? It's all about the tendency to sort of instrumentally use people to gain what they want. That's not always a bad thing, is the interesting thing, right? One of the best ways to— and I hate to say this because it sounds so cynical, but one of the best ways to manipulate people in some ways is to be really nice to them. To be a really good friend, to be really easy to get along with. And that's not a bad thing, right? It's good to live in a society where one of the best ways to benefit yourself is by being a nice person to other people, right? We want a society like that. So that's good. And in fact, many people who are psychopathic, I should say, end up actually being good friends and good people to know because they learn that even though they maybe don't have the same emotional reactions to other people, that the The true capacity, I don't think, for love or care, according to many, many people that I've talked to. That doesn't mean they can't learn to be nice people because they learn that it benefits themselves. When they treat people badly, they keep blowing up their own life over and over again. They lose jobs, they lose friends, they lose relationship partners. But they learn over time, just like all of us do, that when we're kind to other people, that when we generally try to treat other people well, we have better relationships. We have better luck at work.
Al ElliottRight.
Abigail MarshWe are happier ourselves. And so, you know, this is the important thing to know about people with psychopathy is they often are in interactions, nice people. People with psychopathy sometimes can be scary because of how hard it is to detect the psychopathy. They seem so genuinely nice and fun and charming and even kind. And maybe they really are because they, again, they've learned that that is a beneficial way to be. Right.
Leanne ElliottWin-win.
Abigail MarshThe problem is that some people who are psychopathic haven't learned that lesson, and they really are just using surface-level niceness and agreeableness and charm to con people or manipulate them into trusting them so that they can eventually do something that they shouldn't do. And that is how people who are psychopathic really get you. And, you know, everybody in their life will probably end up at the wrong end of an interaction like that.
Leanne ElliottThat's Is there a typical lived experience that might be— is that a clue if we have somebody in our lives who, you know, has that, those types of behaviors? Is there something that typically we might experience because of that?
Abigail MarshWell, I wouldn't say there's any single experience, but there are some, I think, that tend to pop up frequently. One is being victimized by somebody with psychopathy in the context of a romantic relationship. So often people with psychopathy do want relationships with other people. Again, I think it's a myth about people with psychopathy that they don't want, that they're antisocial, meaning they don't want to be around other people. That's not true. Psychopathy has nothing to do with extroversion, which is the desire for company and socializing, right? And so some people who are psychopathic are extroverted and some people are not. So, and many people, regardless of their level of psychopathy, want to be in a romantic relationship for all the good things romantic relationships bring. And so, uh, people who are psychopathic often seek out relationship partners that will benefit them in some ways. Maybe they just like their company, right? We— I've known people who are psychopathic, uh, such as, uh, the late James Fallon, who, uh, was fairly famous for his TED Talk that he gave on discovering, uh, psychopathic people in his family tree and doing a brain scan, which, P.S., we cannot diagnose psychopathy from a brain scan. I say that gently because— I liked James very much, but he was incorrect that we can diagnose psychopathy from a brain scan. He had a long and, from what everybody could tell, very happy marriage despite the fact that he was psychopathic. And I've known other people who are psychopathic who have good long-term relationships because, again, they learn that your relationship is happier when you're nice to the other person. So. However, some people who are psychopathic are really focusing on the short-term gains of a relationship: sex, obviously, maybe that other person supporting them. People with psychopathy can be very parasitic, so they don't want to work too hard for their money or their resources or their comforts. They'd rather use somebody else for those purposes. And you know, anything else that you might get out of a relationship: entertainment, invitations to parties, you name it. And if you want, uh, to get these things fast, you might start out by love bombing somebody, for example. And this is not, uh, always a sign that a person is psychopathic, but it is something to watch out for when somebody is coming on way too strong at the beginning of a relationship with professions of love and, you know, huge sort of expenditures of resources to try to win you over really, really fast. That there's something always It should at least raise questions in someone's mind why somebody would act that way. Sometimes it is a form of manipulation. And then once the love bomber has gotten what they want and they're in a relationship with a person, that's when things start to turn, right? And they'll start using more antisocial forms of manipulation to now keep this person in a relationship with them, threatening them, belittling them, separating them from their their friends, cutting them off from access to resources and money, right? That is a psychopathic pattern of domestic abuse. And people who are psychopathic are absolutely more likely to be domestic abusers than the average person. Although again, it's not a hard and fast rule. And many people who are psychopathic do have, have learned how to have good relationships, but that is a pretty characteristic experience. Getting defrauded or swindled by somebody in the workplace is also something That pops up pretty often, right? So, you hire somebody who's got a background that seems a little erratic. There's parts of their bio that don't quite make sense or maybe seem too good to be true. The references are a little bit sketchy, but you're like, eh, but they seem so impressive. They seem so charismatic. I really like them. They seem really confident. Let's give it a shot. And then, money starts disappearing and there's a lot of stories that don't make sense.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Abigail MarshAnd then it turns out there's been a huge amount of embezzlement behind the scenes. So that's also, um, something that happens pretty often, um, in interactions with people who are psychopathic.
Al ElliottIf 1 in 200 people have psychopathic tendencies, then there's a good chance you work with someone who fits this profile. So after this short break, Leanne's gonna ask Dr. Abby how we can tell if someone at work is a psychopath.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number We actually have a lot in common.
Al ElliottWe both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for all podcasts.
Al ElliottBusiness professionals. Seamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Abigail MarshI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back. I'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. So by my calculations, the average person interacts with around about 170 people at work. So statistically, you almost certainly know at least one person with psychopathic tendencies. Maybe they work for you. Maybe they are your boss. I think I might have had a boss like that before.
Al ElliottI certainly have.
Leanne ElliottMaybe they are in charge of multi-million pound accounts, but can we actually tell if a person has psychopathic tendencies? Do you look around the business world and think— you look at anyone and think they're psychopathic?
Abigail MarshWell, sometimes. Um, the hard thing is that if somebody is behaving in a way that is very instrumental and sort of goal-directed and maybe is aimed at benefiting at others' expense in one context only, that's not psychopathic. And the best example is sports, right? If you imagine a really hardcore, for example, soccer/football player, you know, they can be very aggressive. I have a kiddo who plays soccer, US soccer, and I've learned that there's a lot of violence happening behind the scenes at even like a kid's soccer game, right? People want to win. They want to win at the other team's expense. And they can be incredibly goal-oriented and instrumental about achieving their goals. Why is that okay? Why do we not have a problem with that? We revel in it. We think of athletes who win at all costs as heroes, as long as they play by the rules, basically. And the reason is because that kind of behavior in a rule- context, when everybody has entered into it voluntarily and are all abiding by the same rules of the game, we don't consider psychopathic, right? That's just trying to reach a goal within an acceptable framework, right? And so the same kind of violence, right, knocking into somebody and pushing them down in a soccer game, we view very differently than if you were to just do that to somebody on the street. And I say this because I think There are occasions when people in a business context or a political context are viewing their behavior the same way. They've maybe lost sight of the fact that the business that they're operating in or the political context is not a game, right? Yes, it has features of a game. Sometimes people enter into it voluntarily. Everybody's competing by a set of rules. Everybody's trying to win, or everybody's at least trying to gain resources or gain power. There really needs to be always a piece of your mind that remembers that there are real people and real stakes at play. And it's really important to follow the rules that are meant to protect the welfare of people who could be affected by your behavior. I say this because, you know, in the United States, it's very common for people to just assume that members of the opposite political party, the political party that they don't like, who are very good at what they do, are psychopathic. I've just— I hear people talk about that a lot. Now, some are. Uh, I will say that there are a few prominent U.S. political figures, uh, that everybody I know in the world of psychopathy agrees are psychopathic.
Leanne ElliottWould you name them?
Abigail MarshTrump, obviously. Uh, no, I know everybody— not everybody, but I know a huge proportion of the world's psychopathy research. It's just not a big field. And I've never yet met a one who, when I asked them if they thought Trump was psychopathic, said he wasn't. You know, it's just very— it has all the characteristics. Let's just say that. However, but there are a lot of others that I don't personally like, right? I live in Washington, D.C. You know, I know it's a very small town in some ways, right? Everybody in Washington, D.C. knows everybody else through no more than one or two social connections. And there's a lot of people who work in politics in Washington, D.C. who, again, like, you may not like their politics, you may not agree with their values, you may not like their goals, but they're not psychopathic. And the way that you find this out is how they act outside of this one domain where their behavior is making you mad, right? How do they treat their family, right? And again, a politician I mentioned earlier, right? How do they treat their family, right? Did they treat people that they're close to as objects to be used to achieve their own gains, or do they show Any evidence that they have ever valued this person's welfare for its own sake. They don't just value them for how they reflect on themselves. You know, how do they act in, you know, settings where they have the opportunity to be kind rather than the opportunity to try to get a leg up on somebody else? Do they always seem to be gunning for power and status in every interaction, or do they show evidence that there are some situations in which they can genuinely be kind and caring and prioritize other people's welfare? And that's really the difference. And there are plenty of people in the business world too. I think it's sometimes hard to get good biographical details, right? And you really need the biographical details to make a real assessment. If, again, you just, you can never judge a public figure just based on the external appearance, right? Just based on the way that they act in a public setting. Again, there are many other people in DC, journalists and politicians and things that I either know personally or I know through other connections who know them well, who their public persona is not at all like what they're like in private, right? And so that's why you always have to be very careful about these assessments. But when you have enough biographical information about somebody, that's when you can start to make assessments. And in fact, there was a very well-known paper by the psychologist Scott Lilienfeld, now deceased, where he had historians come up with personality profiles of all US presidents up to, I think the last one was either Bill Clinton or George W. Bush. And based on that, they could assess their levels of psychopathy using biographical details, all at that point, I think 41 US presidents. So that's a perfectly possible thing to do. For business people, it's a lot harder, right? Their biographical information is not as available often. But I think most people would agree that Bernie Madoff, for example, he was a banker in New York, was probably psychopathic based on the way that he acted. And again, multiple domains of his life, not just the one sort of public domain that everybody was familiar with.
Leanne ElliottI mean, is there a scenario where we might find people who have psychopathic tendencies more frequently in certain jobs?
Abigail MarshYes, I do think that you will see people who are psychopathic gravitating towards certain jobs, especially jobs where the traits that typify psychopathy will be advantageous. So yes, and I believe that there have been a few studies recently showing that jobs that involve a high amount of sort of financial risk and jobs where you get more benefit from being charming and charismatic are more likely to attract people higher on the psychopathy spectrum. So yes, I think, and I would have to look this up to be sure, but I believe that sales jobs do tend to attract more people who are psychopathic because charisma and charm are very beneficial. And again, it doesn't necessarily mean that a person will be unethical just because they have high levels of psychopathic traits. I've met people who have high levels of psychopathy, but have developed codes of personal conduct. They have integrity, interestingly.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Abigail MarshYes, they're callous. Yes, they don't have much empathy or caring about other people's welfare fundamentally. They don't feel love as I would think about it, but they do have integrity. They have codes of conduct. They've decided how they're going to act and they can still behave ethically, even though it is harder for them than it is for other people. And so again, I always want to make this big caveat that just because somebody has these traits, you can't necessarily predict how they're going to act, but they're at much higher risk of acting unethically.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Abigail MarshAnd I would urge anybody who's listening who is, you know, either knows that they're psychopathic or believes that they're psychopathic, that that kind of integrity is possible to cultivate no matter who you are. And it does tend to result in better life outcomes. And anyways, but if you don't have integrity and you're psychopathic and you're in some sort of a, you know, high-risk position in finance or a sales position, you can end up causing a lot of chaos.
Al ElliottYeah.
Abigail MarshNo question. Unfortunately, people who are psychopathic are not going to care more about you than anybody else, right? And so again, if they don't have integrity, they will just as soon turn on the people who they've been working for and screw them over if it would benefit them. So you're taking a gamble when you employ somebody knowingly who is very tolerant of risk and danger and callous about how their behavior affects other people. What I could say is that the reason any trait is distributed continuously in the population is because there's no ideal level of it, right? Usually, you know, fearfulness is a good example, right? Is it better to be higher in fear or lower in fear? Well, it depends on the circumstances. Right? In a very dangerous context, it's much better to have high levels of fear, otherwise you're going to die. But in a very low— in a very safe context, you could argue that most of the industrialized world now is very safe physically, right? I mean, other than bad drivers, we're much less in danger from physical harm than most of our ancestors have been for most of human history. And so most of us probably have sort of overly high vestigial levels of fear, maladaptively so. And that may be why there are so many anxiety disorders out there. And so the same is probably true with psychopathic traits. There's certain jobs where having relatively higher levels actually is beneficial. And I can see certain sales jobs and certain jobs where you need to be very socially dominant and bold and charismatic. Absolutely. A little bit of an elevation in psychopathic traits probably isn't a advantage. But if you go too far, then, you know, now things become disadvantageous again.
Al ElliottLeah, what's the opposite of a psychopath? I mean, I know there are a couple of people who are so generous and kind, they often do things that actually harm their own progress just to make other people happy. Is that the opposite of psychopathy?
Leanne ElliottI asked Dr. Abby about this. It's a big part of her research. And yes, there is an opposite side to the spectrum.
Abigail MarshIt's called extreme One of the important things to know about psychopathy is that it's not like a grouping, right? It's not like you can divide the world into people who are psychopathic and people who are not, and they're just, you know, 2 sort of binary categories. It's not the way it works. For almost any personality trait, almost all, really almost all human traits are found on a continuum or a spectrum where most people are sort of clustered in the middle. Of, for example, anxiety, right? Most people have sort of moderate levels of anxiety, and then a few people have very high levels, and we might say they have a disorder. And then a few people have very low levels of anxiety, and that's not always adaptive either. Too little anxiety, and sometimes you take needless risks. So psychopathy is the same way, but it's not a normal distribution, right? Psychopathy is distributed non-normally, meaning there's a very small number of people with high psychopathic traits, and most people are more toward the low end, right?
Al ElliottEspecially women.
Abigail MarshAs it turns out, you'll find lots of women at the very low end of the psychopathy spectrum, but still the vast majority of men are also at the low end. However, it is continuously distributed, which means that there's a bump of people sort of in the middle-ish of the distribution, and then it tails off at the end again. And it occurred to me a while ago that if psychopathy and these sort of uncaring traits that are really at the core of psychopathy are distributed continuously, well, what's at the other end of a truly high psychopathy person? And it occurred to me there may be such a thing as an anti-psychopath, somebody who is unusually caring and places an unusually high value on other people's welfare. And so for the last, oh, I guess maybe 15 years now, I've also been studying the other end of what I call the caring continuum. People who are extraordinarily altruistic, who seem to have an unusually unusual ability to care about even people they've never met before and who are willing to sacrifice to help other people rather than sacrificing other people to benefit themselves as people with psychopathy do. And the population that I've done the most work with is altruistic kidney donors. So this is people who donate a kidney to a stranger, either a stranger that's been picked off a list or a stranger who they've never met whose plea for a kidney they see on a billboard or something like that. And I've done both behavioral and cognitive and neuroimaging research with extraordinary altruists. And what's really neat is that we found that not only behaviorally do they seem the opposite of people with psychopathy, their brains look the opposite as well. So some of the things my own research and others' research has shown about people with psychopathy is that there's a part of the brain called the amygdala. That tends to be smaller than average in people who are psychopathic. And that's interesting because one of the things that structure does is coordinate the experience of fear. It doesn't— it's not where fear lives exactly, but it certainly seems to pull together the whole range of phenomena that together create fear. And the interesting thing about psychopathy is, of course, one of the things is that people who are psychopathic tend to be relatively fearless. They don't learn to avoid behaviors that result in punishment or that result in harm. And, you know, it's one of the reasons they get in so many scrapes. They also, because they don't experience fear very strongly or sometimes at all, struggle to empathize with fear in other people. So one of the things that people with psychopathy struggle with is simply recognizing when other people are afraid. So, you know, when you hear somebody's voice that sounds terrified, or you see somebody cringing, or you see a frightened face, most of us very rapidly register that emotional state due in part to activity within the amygdala that sort of translates other people's emotions into something we can interpret. And that's really empathy at its most fundamental form, right? I'm using what I know about the experience of fear to interpret your behavior that's associated with And so, um, because of these problems with the— in the amygdala, people who are psychopathic, again, don't have strong fear experiences themselves, and they also struggle to empathize with fear in other people. Um, with one of my, uh, favorite stories about this being, um, told to me by one of my colleagues in the UK, Essie Beating, who's at, um, University College London, and was once assessing, uh, men in, uh, a prison there who were psychopathic for their ability to recognize different facial expressions in other people. And she showed them all a bunch of pictures with different facial expressions. And one of the men she was testing missed every single fearful facial expression in the set, right? He couldn't label a single one of them correctly, which is pretty bad, even for somebody who's psychopathic. And he knew he was doing badly because he got to the very last expression in the set and said, you know, I don't know what that expression's called, but I know that's what people look like right before you stab them. So, what that indicates is that he knew he'd seen that expression before. He's like, oh yeah, I've seen that before. And he could even tell you when he's seen it before. He's seen it in a moment where the person he's looking at thinks they're going to die, right? And yet, he's like, what emotion would you call that? It really, I think, is a profoundly impactful story because it I think it really illustrates how in some ways emotionally blind people with psychopathy are when it comes to certain kinds of emotions. And again, that's just one story, but there's lots of data now that back up that people who are psychopathic really struggle to understand the emotion of fear in other people. And it's one of the reasons that they don't understand why it's such a big deal to cause it. Okay. So that seems to result from problems in the amygdala. It's too small and it's also underactive, right? respond strongly when you see somebody else who's afraid, right? And that's reflecting the difficulty people with psychopathy have empathizing with fear. And what we found in people who were extremely altruistic is the opposite. So their amygdalas tend to be bigger than average, uh, and they tend to be more responsive to the sight of other people's fears. So they have a strong empathic response to other people's distress, and they're better at recognizing other people's distress as well. And so it really seems like they have Is there a dark side to extreme altruism? Not that I've been able to find, I have to say. I mean, I really enjoy working with human participants in all of my studies in general. I really am so appreciative of all the people who come in and participate in research studies. It takes a big chunk of time and it's a huge contribution to science. I always enjoy working with people who are psychopathic. Because I believe it's a really important question. And I really appreciate their spending time to help understand the phenomenon more deeply. However, I will say I particularly enjoy working with people who are extremely altruistic. It has really been an enormous pleasure to do this research with this group of people who I genuinely believe they just value other people's welfare more. And not because of any self-benefiting reason that we've been able to find in any of our studies, right? There's no sign that they're somehow suppressing a true selfish desire for, I don't know, the desire for acclaim or something like that, or status. All of our brain imaging studies suggest that when they're making decisions about benefiting other people's welfare, it's truly because They place a higher value, a higher weight on other people's welfare. And I think that's a beautiful thing. I think it's sort of, it should be an inspiration to everybody that that's a thing that's possible is to genuinely care about the welfare of people, even that we don't know. And it doesn't require resorting to supernatural explanations. Sometimes people refer to extraordinary altruists as guardian angels or saints. As though it's not possible for a real human being made of flesh and blood to genuinely make a sacrifice or take a risk to help other people. And I think what's really neat about very altruistic people is they give the lie to that explanation. And that's also true about the other extraordinary altruists we've worked with, who include heroic rescuers who've won a Carnegie Medal for Heroism, humanitarian aid workers for organizations like Doctors Without Borders, and liver and bone marrow donors who have also saved a life through the donation of part of their own body.
Al ElliottAs we mentioned before, back in episode 79, Dr. Sarah Hughes, the CEO of Mind, that basically the UK's largest mental health charity, was telling us we need a better understanding of more pathological conditions. That word confused me. Leah, can you briefly explain the difference between mental health conditions and pathological condition?
Leanne ElliottOf course. So really simple terms put, everybody has mental health. Not everybody has a mental illness, much like everybody has physical health, but not everyone is always physically unwell. And it's important to remember that a mental illness is not the same as feeling sad or unhappy or stressed because of difficult situations. Mental illness is when people feel distressed, regularly when they're not in control of their lives. Mental illness can impact how we see ourselves, how we see the world around us, and how we interact with the world. And it's also important to know that it is possible to have good mental health if you have a mental illness such as psychopathy. And the reason that we call them pathological conditions is because they can be diagnosed much like any other medical condition. So the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or the DSM, bit catchier, is a publication by the American Psychiatric Association for the qualification and diagnosis of mental disorders. There are common language and clear symptoms that professionals will use to actually diagnose a mental illness.
Al ElliottWell, that makes a bit more sense. And I think what's also funny is that you see quite a lot on TikTok, Instagram, whatever, the word mental health. There's even like a Menti Bee, I think people call it. Uh, people are talking about psychopaths.
Leanne ElliottIt's a lot more in the common language Yeah, and you know, it's great that we're talking about this more, but I wanted to know if we are at the stage where the average person can actually diagnose themselves with something like psychopathy. I mean, the word psychopath is probably one of the most common words at the moment used on TikTok.
Abigail MarshI have to say, there has been a trend lately that I've observed, um, anecdotally. I don't have data on this, but it really seems clearer, of people increasingly self-diagnosing as psychopathic, who I really don't think are due to, I have to assume, stuff they've seen on TikTok, right? There's a real dearth of good mental health information on TikTok and just a slew of bad mental health information. And so unfortunately, I think that when you've got a very short video and people with sort of debatable levels of expertise tossing out information about, oh, if you have this random symptom, you have this disorder. A lot of people are freaking out that suddenly they have a disorder. Or maybe they're not always freaking out. Maybe they're thinking, oh, I've always felt that something was different about me, and here's the explanation. Sometimes the diagnosis can be a real relief to people because it feels like it makes sense of experiences they've had that don't make sense. So I will say that there— I have seen increasing numbers of people who sometimes reach out to me who believe that they're psychopathic because they self-perceive that they're not as empathic as other people. Now, that's a tough call to make, right? How do I know how much empathy other people are feeling inside, right? You can't see other people's insides. You can just see their outsides. You can just hear what they say or how they act. You don't know what they're really feeling. And in general, If you believe that you don't feel as much empathy as you should, maybe, you know, for example, there are people on the other side of the world who are suffering. You know, that's true for every single person who might be listening to this recording, right? I mean, there are definitely people right now who are suffering in a distant country you have never met, right? That's hard to empathize with just fundamentally due to the way our brains are built. We might know cognitively that we should really care about their fate just as much As if it was our own child suffering right in front of us, but that's not how empathy works, right? Empathy is a very concrete phenomenon that is much easier to experience for people who are right there in front of us, who we know, who we care about already, and who we like, right? This is just a fact. We don't need empathy to help other people, right? People who are psychopathic can help other people even though they don't feel genuine empathy for their suffering. Um, and so I don't think people should be too quick to assume that they're psychopathic just because they feel like they should be feeling more empathy than they are. And honestly, I wouldn't have made this comment even 6 months ago, but I think that this is something that I've been hearing in the popular conversation very recently. However, if you believe that your personality is different from that of other people around you in a broader range of ways, Right? That you genuinely don't feel any response at all, even when somebody that you know well or is close to you putatively is suffering or in distress, like, that is a little odd, right? You should feel something when somebody that you like is suffering or in pain. That would be unusual to not have an empathic response in that situation. If you feel like you'd never genuinely care about other people's welfare, right? Whether if somebody, you know, is suffering or is doing well, it doesn't matter to you. You see them as somebody that you sort of will use to achieve what you want, right? And what you want is sort of always your primary goal. And if you have a tendency to engage in behaviors that exploit Or hurt other people more than the average person. And this includes behaviors like manipulating people, again, usually to get what you want, lying, um, often without any fear of being caught and often for no reason, right? You're just lying because who cares, right? Why not lie? Sometimes lying is more interesting than telling the truth. Um, stealing things that aren't yours, engaging in sort of verbal or social aggression, bullying or threatening people to get what you want. Um, and of course, physical aggression.
Al ElliottYeah.
Abigail MarshThose are the kinds of behaviors that if you're engaging in those behaviors with any kind of regularity, that's when you start to feel some concern that maybe this person does have a personality disorder like psychopathy. And in that case, you can go to the website of Psychopathy Is, and we offer free screeners there that are scientifically valid, unlike a lot of the really unvalid screeners, or invalid, I should say, screeners. Yeah. Screeners that you can find elsewhere on the internet. And take these self-scoring screeners, and that will give you a sense of whether maybe you need to see a clinician and get a real assessment and a real diagnosis.
Al ElliottNow, if we go back to episode, I think it was 116, we had Dr. Hilary Scarlett, and she was talking about how brain scans can clearly show how we are feeling. So is this the same with psychopathic tendencies, perhaps? Can we just fire up the MRI machine and actually see the psychopathic brain scans? Is that how it works? Let's rejoin the interview where Leanne asks this exact question.
Abigail MarshThe reason I think it's so important to emphasize that we can't diagnose any psychological condition with a brain scan is because unfortunately there are quacks and charlatans out there who will try to convince people they can to make money. And I know lots of people who have been told by some fancy physician in New York that, you know, they just need to get a SPECT scan. to measure activity in their brains, and that will really diagnose them with an autism spectrum disorder, ADHD. And I just want to say, no, that person is just trying to make money off of you. When we look at groups of people, when we look at, you know, for example, I might bring in 25 or 30 people who have donated a kidney to a stranger and run brain scans on them and compare them to a group of 30 people who are just typical people. And when we look at groups of people, we do see patterns of differences. And why can we see differences in groups and not in individuals? Well, because our brain data is messy and noisy, and the things that we're measuring are only a very rough proxy for what's actually happening under the surface. So for example, the amygdala is a very busy, complicated structure. It has a lot of nuclei within it, lots of different neurotransmitter systems within it. Signals are ricocheting in and out all the time, we're not picking up any of that from our brain scans, right? What we're picking up is how much blood is being recruited to the whole structure at any given time. If we had better technology, right, if I could actually trace the patterns of signaling and the neurotransmitter systems involved within the amygdala, which is something we can do in other species, or we're getting close to being able to do it in non-human animals using very invasive technology, then we might be able to actually diagnose some We're not there yet. Maybe we'll get there one day with humans. So I, that's just the explanation that I try to give of, you know, our very rough proxies are picking up on something kind of related to the real mechanism that we're interested in. The differences that we've seen in people who are very altruistic versus psychopathic, one is again, these differences in empathic responding in the brain. So for example, we brought people in to have their brains scanned while they were having their thumbs smashed by a device colloquially called a thumb smasher. It's more officially called a pressure pain device. And it's for scientific purposes. It does not cause any damage. But it's a little syringe or a little, you know, like a little plunger that sort of bangs down on your thumbnail very hard at a level that you set. You know, we don't actually want to cause anybody searing pain, but we ask people to pick a level of intensity that does hurt. Okay. And so we measure your brain activity while you're having this little thumb smash or banging on your thumbnail. And then while you're watching a stranger over a live video feed have exactly the same thing happen to them. And what is interesting about most people is that you won't show much empathic response for a stranger, right? That's just unfortunately the way most people are, right? Your brain activity when you are having this, your thumb smashed, will not look that similar to your brain activity when a stranger is getting their thumb smashed as you watch. However, if it's somebody you care about, you will show empathic activity, right? Your brain will look very similar when your own thumb is being smashed and when you're watching somebody you care about's thumb being smashed. And again, we think that it— that, you know, I refer to that as self-other mapping. Like, you're trying to simulate the internal experience of the other person. You're trying to sort of recreate that experience that they're having within your brain to understand it, to respond appropriately, right? And that's empathy, I think, at its very deepest level. I think that it is the best way to measure empathy because it's so direct and it doesn't require you to know what you're experiencing. It's happening in there, whether you know it or not. What we see with very altruistic people is that they do show an empathic response. in this circumstance, even when the person on the other end is a complete stranger, right? They're empathizing with their pain as though it was somebody they cared about very much, because guess what? They do care about them very much, right? They're— and I say this with the ultimate fondness and love. I think of them a little bit like golden retrievers, a little bit like mine, who's snoozing in the corner right now. And this is, I think, what's so special about, you know, certain of our beloved canine companions is that they genuinely do feel love for people in general, right? They don't have to know who you are. They don't have— you don't have to be important to them, right? They just have to meet you. And they're like, I love you just because you're a human being and here you are standing in front of me. And in fact, I named my dog Doug after the dog in the movie Up with the balloon house. You know, do you remember that movie? Yeah. And so, um, the dog, who's a fantastic dog in that movie, his— it wasn't his opening line, but it was like a second or third line. When he meets somebody for the first time, he says, I have just met you and I love you. And I love that line because that is exactly how golden retrievers really are. They're like, I don't really need to know anything about you. Like, I, I've just met you and I already love you. And, you know, I don't want to make it sound, you know, treacly or cheesy, but I, I genuinely think that truly altruistic people have a genuine capacity to feel love, like genuinely valuing the other person's welfare, even for strangers. And then people who are psychopathic, again, we see exactly the opposite. Um, they show, um, even less of an empathic response to other people's pain, um, than a typical person does. A typical person shows a little, an altruistic person shows a lot, and a very psychopathic person just shows none. So, um, they're not, it's not that they can't empathize, right? If they're motivated to empathize, they can. It's just that they don't bother most of the time, unfortunately. Um, and then we've seen the differences in the amygdala that I've talked to you about before. Um, and then, uh, one of the other things that we're kind of working on right now, but we have some data from a very recent study is, um, when people are making decisions about whether to keep resources, money for themselves, or share it with somebody else, somebody either very close to them or somebody that they don't know at all. The reason that people who are very altruistic seem to be more likely to share with another person, even if that person is somebody they don't know well, right? And that is a manifestation of the fact that they care more about the welfare of even distant others. The calculations underlying that decision seem to rely on the amygdala again, and a region of the prefrontal cortex called the rostral anterior cingulate cortex. And those regions talk to each other. The amygdala is sending information to the prefrontal cortex and getting information back from it. And that circuit has been demonstrated to be essential in prosocial decision-making in other species, including monkeys, from using very, very precise technology. And so I think that what is happening in very altruistic people is that the amygdala is calculating, again, the value of other people's welfare and using it to guide decision-making. And the way it's doing so is what results in people who are very altruistic acting the way that they do.
Leanne ElliottWhat is the most compelling story of somebody who is psychopathic, their lived experience? that you've ever heard? Is there ever one that stays with you and maybe influences your work more than others?
Abigail MarshThere are a lot of really compelling stories that I've come across over the years of people who are psychopathic. I mean, it's one that comes to mind quickly because it's a story that was very well publicized just earlier this year. One of the members of our board is Patrick Gagneux, who is a woman who was diagnosed as a sociopath. And I'll just very quickly say, what's the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath? Psychopathy is a real scientific term. It's a real diagnosis. There's scientific societies and scientific measures, and it's published in the scientific literature. Sociopathy is none of those things. It's a term that was coined, I don't know, 50 years ago or so to try to reduce the stigma of psychopathy, but it doesn't— nobody in scientific or clinical settings uses that term anymore. It's a popular term. Media loves it. I don't know, maybe it's just the cadence of the term or something that people love. I have no idea. Um, but you will never hear clinicians or researchers referring to sociopathy anymore. It's mostly just a term you see in the media and journalism anyways. Uh, but Patrick was diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder several decades ago. She refers to herself as sociopathic, and, you know, that's fine with me. Uh, certainly in a, in a media context, I understand why.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Abigail MarshAnd she tells a really great story about how she really, from a very young age, had almost no empathy or compassion. She got in trouble all the time, was occasionally very violent. And then over the course of her life, gained some insight into the ways that she was different from the average person and into the ways that the way these traits were expressing themselves in her behavior was really hurting her. Right? She was the one who was losing by treating people the way she was treating them and using them instrumentally. And learned, again, because I think she does have integrity, to behave in ways that were more prosocial and has a great life now because of it. And I think it's a great story because it is so inspiring. And I think it gives hope to all the families out there. And I know there's so many parents out there who have children who have psychopathic traits who are not getting the help that they need because clinicians don't look for this disorder, I think, nearly as often as they should when the signs are there. And, you know, or people who are worried about themselves or worried about somebody close to them. And it's like, look, this, you know, it's not a death sentence, right? It's not hopeless. And people can change. It's hard, but it's certainly possible. The behaviors that are associated with psychopathy should be stigmatized. Hurting other people, Exploiting, manipulating. Like, those are— it's good to stigmatize those behaviors. We do not want people to be proud of those sorts of things. Uh, however, I think it's incredibly important for people to recognize that the psychopathic traits that put people at risk for those behaviors are not, um, not something anybody chooses to have. They are a disorder and they are something that can be treated. People can get better. And so we are 100% trying to get the message out about that. Because the more people know about psychopathy, um, and the more they recognize when either their own or somebody around them's traits and behavior really reflect psychopathy, the more likely they are to get connected to the treatment that can help them improve.
Al ElliottThere you have it. You now know a lot more about psychopathy than you did an hour ago. But are you a psychopath? Are we psychopaths? At the top of the show, we explained that we took Dr. Abbie's online diagnostic questionnaire, and we have the results here.
Leanne ElliottYes, and we've deliberately not shared them with each other, so let's do that now. Al, can I ask you, are you psychopathic?
Al ElliottMine came back and said low, which I'm guessing means that either I'm low-key psychopathic or it's a low risk of being, of being psychopathic. What about you?
Leanne ElliottSame, I was low too, although I must admit there were some questions that I felt, I felt a little bit uncomfortable admitting them to myself. Um, yeah, just nothing, nothing terrible, but sometimes where I maybe have been a little bit mean, a little bit too assertive perhaps. Um, I think that's the thing with this self-report test, and if you go in, if you go and do it, and you should because it's interesting, but it's self-report, which means you're answering questions about yourself So it's really important to try and be as brutally honest as you can. And that's the thing with the self-report test, you're answering questions about yourself, so it's important that you are as honest as, as you can possibly be. But yes, with that honesty, I am not psychopathic.
Al ElliottI wonder if you know how Dr. Marsh says that psychopathy tends to manifest in people wanting to do the right thing by people and be the right person that they're looking for. That must be difficult to write a test for, because if you are naturally on the psychopathic scale, then you will naturally want to answer so that the questioner— that's— is that the right technical term? The questioner? The question master? So they will like you.
Leanne ElliottYes, but that's why tests like this are really carefully constructed, asking you multiple questions that measure the same trait over and over again in different ways. Um, so yeah, a good, good diagnostic test will actually build in social desirability bias, where basically a little lie detector test built into the questionnaire.
Al ElliottVery clever. You lot know what you're doing, don't you?
Leanne ElliottWe try. Abi knows much more than I do when it comes to what we're doing, but yes.
Al ElliottSo talking of Abi, before we leave you, let's go back and find out what the one thing is that she wants you to know about psychopathy and extreme altruism.
Abigail MarshI think it would be that the average person really does have the capacity to care about other people. And the fact that psychopathy exists is proof of that, right? If people were really fundamentally selfish, we'd all be psychopathic, and we clearly are not. People who are genuinely fundamentally selfish exist. They're out there. They're not normal. They're not typical. And oftentimes they have a pretty serious personality disorder that can be treated. But the average person out there really does have the capacity to care about others. And that's something that we should all look to.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Abigail Marshnourish and foster in any environment that we find ourselves in.
Al ElliottAnd of course, if you want to find out more about Dr. Abby's work and take the same test that we just did, then here's where to find her.
Abigail MarshThey can go to my website, abigailmarsh.com. Or certainly if they're interested in psychopathy, they can go to the Psychopathy Is website, which is psychopathyis.org.
Al ElliottFun fact, I used to work with a guy, and obviously I'm not going to name him, but used to work with a guy who showed all of the traits, I reckon, Dr. Marsh will be fascinated by all of the traits for this. And I knew him quite well. I worked for maybe 5 or 6 years, and it got so bad they did a BBC radio documentary on just how terrible this person was, but so charming. The ladies loved him. Anyway, I digress.
Leanne ElliottI thought it was really interesting as well when, um, Dr. Abby was very clear when I pushed her for an example of somebody in the public eye who is psychopathic that Donald Trump was the name that came to mind. And I respect her view on that because, you know, she said that there needs to be a lot of context behind it. You need to understand a lot about somebody's life and see it in multiple scenarios. So yeah, if you have any doubt going into the US 2024 election, and it's not necessarily reason not to vote for him, but just be aware that Donald Trump is psychopathic.
Al ElliottAnd if he appeals to you, then And that's exactly what a psychopath does.
Leanne ElliottI also love the story about the extreme altruism, and I really pushed Abby to see if there was like a darker side to that, whether it kind of went full circle and there's, you know, that just some darkness to it, um, like self-serving drive in some way. But she said no, they're just lovely, adorable, gorgeous, beautiful people. And I think it's hearing about them that made me, made me think maybe I'm more psychopathic than I am an extreme altruist. Maybe. It sounds like a nice place to be though, doesn't it?
Al ElliottI like you just the way you are. And I'm also very relieved that you are low. That's that, it came up low. If you said mid, I'd be a bit like, okay.
Leanne ElliottBut then if I was psychopathic, I probably would tell you that, didn't I? I didn't actually show you my results. But anyway, a reminder, if you like to hear stories, if you like to hear stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then every Thursday we bring you an amazing guest with a great story.
Al ElliottAnd if you like to keep abreast of the latest news and love a good Agony Aunt segment, then Tuesdays are right up your street where we're going to bring you the weekly news roundup, brand new segments we said before, Hot Takes. Leanne's been working on it, love it. And of course, our world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Leah, I'm sure you've got a message for our lovely listeners and maybe Dr. Marsh before we go.
Leanne ElliottIf you've enjoyed this episode, please do consider subscribing, clicking follow, automatic downloads, whatever it is, whatever platform it is that you're listening on. It really is the best way to support the show. If you're an extreme altruist, you might also want to leave us a review because that's, that's lovely and that really helps people to find the show, and particularly if it's a good one. Um, and if you're psychopathic, um, get in touch. If you do that quiz And you're like, huh, what now? Well, actually, there is a section for that on Dr. Abby's website, but do get in touch. Um, if, if anything in this episode has made you, made you, um, come up with more questions than answers, do get in touch. If we can't help, we will put you in touch with the people who can. And I think that's it. We'll see you on Tuesday.
Al ElliottWell, just quickly, as, as the producer, so I suppose, of this show, I want to say, if you do score highly and you do want to get in touch You do want to come on the pod, that would be an interesting story. So let us know. Anyway, as Leanne said, we will see you next Tuesday. Have a lovely week. Bye-bye. Bye.
Leanne ElliottIs a professor in the Department of Psychology and the Interdisciplinary Neuroscience Program.
Al ElliottOh, and we thought it was only fair to find out how psychopaths—
Leanne ElliottI'm a psychologist, and even I had some questions around it. Are there— I can't say psychopaths, can I? I'm a psychologist, and even I had a lot of questions around this. For example, are there good psychopathic traits and bad psychopathic traits?
Al ElliottBrilliant. Can you do that again?
Leanne ElliottWanted to know if we're at the stage—
Al Elliottstage— You sound like Adele then.
Abigail MarshI'm sorry.
Al ElliottSo is this the same with like psychopath— what the psychopathic brain scan is?