Episode 13 · 22 November 2022 · 27:21
How to Support Your Team Through Redundancy: Lessons from the Twitter Layoffs (Part 2 of 2)
How to Support Your Team Through Redundancy: Lessons from the Twitter Layoffs (Part 2 of 2)
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The scale of the Twitter layoffs and broader tech industry context
Candice's bombshell: Twitter may not recover
Survivor syndrome and the cultural impact on remaining employees
Lessons for other organisations: Stripe, Lyft, Meta
Lessons learned: what founders get wrong and the mental toll on leaders
other#founder-mistakes#leadership-mental-health#layoffs-lessons
A different approach: identifying voluntary leavers before layoffs
Twitter vs Stripe: the distinction that matters in layoffs
Transparency and honesty in layoffs
Leanne's story: being made redundant in 2015
What the science says about redundancy and the brain's response
Practical steps: advice from Candice and the experts
Updating your CV and final thoughts
Show notes
How to Support Your Team Through Redundancy: Lessons from the Twitter Layoffs (Part 2 of 2)
Truth, Lies & Work — In the first part of this special series, we left things on a bombshell: Twitter's Global Head of Wellness wasn't sure the company would survive. Following Elon Musk's acquisition on 27th October 2022, almost 50% of staff were let go. But it's how it happened that has angered people.
In this second part, Al and Leanne continue their conversations with the experts, unpacking the human cost of the Twitter layoffs and — more importantly — what leaders can learn when they have to make the same call. Plus, Leanne shares her own story of being made redundant, and the science-backed steps that helped her through it.
🔥 The Story So Far
In Part 1, we heard from Dr Candice Schaefer — Twitter's Global Head of Employee Wellness — who revealed she wasn't sure Twitter would survive. In Part 2, we dig deeper into the aftermath.
The experts:
- Stephen Waddington — PR expert, Visiting Professor of PR at Newcastle University, former head of CIPR
- Dr Candice Schaefer — Licensed Clinical Psychologist & Mental Health and Wellness Strategist, until earlier this year the Global Head of Employee Wellness at Twitter
- Arun Krishnakumar — Graduate of the University of Oxford & London School of Economics, author of Restaup: A Founders Guide to Crisis Navigation
🧠 Key Lessons for Leaders
1. Survivors feel it too. It's estimated around 3,700 people lost their jobs — and that doesn't include contractors. But the people who stay are dealing with survivor syndrome: guilt, fear, and a fractured sense of trust. Culture doesn't survive layoffs by accident — it needs deliberate rebuilding.
2. Planned change beats panic. Al and Leanne make a clear distinction between how Twitter handled things and how Stripe did. An appropriately planned change management process matters — because as human beings, we hate uncertainty more than we hate bad news.
3. Transparency is non-negotiable. When employees hear about layoffs from the news before leadership, trust evaporates. The experts agree: honesty and transparency — even when the news is bad — is the only way to preserve any sense of psychological safety.
4. Think before you fire. One investor in Silicon Valley shared a brilliant insight with Al: before you lay people off, consider whether there's a different approach. It's a question too few founders ask.
💬 Leanne's Story: Being Made Redundant in 2015
Leanne shares her personal experience of being made redundant — she saw it coming, but not entirely. It was one of the most challenging moments of her career.
The science explains why: our brains don't like change. They don't like feeling uncomfortable. When redundancy hits, we go into a panicked state — and that's completely normal.
What helped:
- Take time to process what you feel — don't rush into "fixing" it
- Update your CV — but from a viewpoint of what you want next, not just what you did before
- Remember that your skills transfer — engineers have huge value outside tech, and so do you
📚 More From Our Experts
- Stephen Waddington — find him on Twitter, LinkedIn, or subscribe to his newsletter (links in the original episode notes)
- Dr Candice Schaefer — follow her on Twitter or LinkedIn
- Arun Krishnakumar — see his articles on LinkedIn or follow him on Twitter. His book, Restaup: A Founders Guide to Crisis Navigation, is available on Amazon
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast. My name's Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottMy name's Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd our podcast helps leaders to navigate the complex world of people and culture. None of— nothing is quite as complex at the moment as our top story, which is Twitter and the layoffs.
Leanne ElliottI think we said at the end of last episode that we were going to separate this into 2 parts just because of the sheer volume of things to get through based on Elon Musk's behavior and what is the continuing story at Twitter. Even in the last few days, we've seen further updates of Elon firing people via Twitter. I mean, it just— it's done. I don't have words. I don't have words. For just the pure bad practice that we're seeing from Elon Musk at the moment. But yes, how he has fired people via Twitter for, quote, shitposting about Twitter. I think we should talk about that in another episode, because I think that in itself is just flawed. There's— they're the people that you You want to hear from and you want to influence change within your business. But yes, and then now Elon's locked people out the Twitter offices. What, what is going on over there?
Al ElliottNow, I want to be, I want to be clear, we're not necessarily like just shitting on Twitter. That's not our plan here. Our plan is, in fact, what we did last in the last episode, we kind of broke it down into 3 sections. We looked at what the impact he's doing, or he's having on the business, what the impact is having on the brand, and then the impact it's having on the people. And that's what you've missed last time. So if you've not listened to the first episode, you can of course listen to this one, but you're missing all of the juicy bits. You're missing all the meat in the pie, if that's not a weird analogy. Because in the last one, we started off, we kicked off with a timeline, and we talked through how it all started. And it was only April it all started. Then we talked about how 3,500 or 3,700 or something, a number of employees. Do you remember how many employees were laid off? 3,500.
Leanne ElliottIt's estimated about 3,700, but that probably doesn't include contractors who have also lost their job. That's at Twitter. And then of course, this isn't a new thing or, or a standalone thing in the tech space at the moment. We have about 1,000 people have been laid off from Stripe, 700 from Lyft, um, and most recently a huge 11,000 from Meta. So as Al says, we're not hating on Twitter or Elon Musk here. This isn't a unique problem within the tech industry at the moment, but what is bringing around an interesting point of discussion, particularly for business leaders who might be faced with similar difficult decisions. And you would have learned this from the last episode. It's not about making this commercial decision. It's about how that decision is executed.
Al ElliottDefinitely. So we are still going to hear from our 3 guests. We've got Stephen Waddington, who is a PR expert, a professor of PR at Newcastle University, and an ex-head of the CIPR, the Chartered Institute of Public Relations. Then we're going to hear from Arun Kumbh Kushnakama, who's an author and a tech analyst. And he's talked about— he's got a book called RestartUp: A Founder's Guide to Crisis Navigation.
Leanne ElliottAnd finally, we'll be hearing back from Dr. Candice Schaefer, who is a clinical psychologist and wellbeing expert. And most interestingly, for the purposes of this episode, is the former global head of employee wellness at Twitter, a post she held up until April 2022.
Al ElliottSo talking of Dr. Schaeffer, we left the last episode on a little bit of a bombshell because we asked Candice, will Twitter survive from this? Here's what she had to say. I don't know, to be honest. I think Facebook has gone through such a metamorphosis, no pun intended, Meta. But Twitter, I don't— I am afraid Twitter will not recover from this.
Leanne ElliottSo, in this part of the episode, we're going to look at the current situation and the future. So, what is the impact of the layoffs on leaders? Let's be honest, we've centred very much on criticising some of the approaches certain leaders have made, but of course, psychologically, mentally, this isn't always an easy process for leaders to go through. So, we're going to reflect on that a little bit. We're also going to talk a little bit about my experience. Experience being made redundant, um, I do empathize so much, and it is one of the most difficult challenges. So, so yeah, we're going to talk openly about, about my experiences, and then of course, you know, if you have been impacted by the redundancies, what steps you can take next to, to look after yourself, um, and to get back out there and find your next opportunity. I mean, for somebody like Dr. Candace to say, you know, she's not sure Twitter will make it, I think it really does Really just make the point so powerfully that how leaders approach people, approach culture, how they treat their people, really can commercially be a make-or-break moment. As Candace said, this is a heartbreaking situation, and you do have to think about the people who are still at Twitter who are dealing with this aftermath and, and what's left of the culture. Let's see what Candace thinks.
Al ElliottUm, I kind of feel like, um, and for the people that I do know that are still there, um, there's a lot of survivor guilt, you know, similar to, uh, you know, people who survive a traumatic event, like, and not everybody does. You feel guilty. Why did I get picked? Why, why am I still here? And then not only that, you have this basically like bombshell of your Over half the workforce is gone. You don't know who is still left. You go through Slack and see who's deactivated and who's still there. It's, it's just this constant trauma, almost like of, of going through a war, and you're not sure who survived on the other side. Why did you deserve to survive? Grieving the people who are no longer there. Um, there's a great, great sense of grief, I think, in losing the Twitter that you once knew. Uh, if you really were, uh, involved with culture, knew what it, knew what it was like, and knowing that it's never going to be the same. And I don't think there's really any way to get that back.
Leanne ElliottSo that's the view of the culture of Twitter. But what about other organizations? Stripe, Lyft, Meta— what challenges are these leaders going to be facing over the next 6 to 12 months?
Al ElliottI think culture, morale, um, keeping people productive, keeping people wanting to be Motivated for the mission of the company is going to be the hardest thing. There's still a lot of uncertainty around where these companies are going, what they're going to be creating, and is it stable? And if you have a company that's unstable, on unstable ground, your employees are constantly going to be in a fearful mindset that it could be them next. They may not have a job tomorrow. And so you have people who are looking.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottfor other jobs and not being committed to potentially what it is that's playing out at your company. So I think there's a ton of risk in cutting too many people because you're going to take away a lot of the culture that made the company as attractive as it is. I'm curious, Leanne, would you pay for this, pay $8 for the blue tick?
Leanne ElliottWould I? Bollocks. Do you know why, right? It's because I see the blue tick is almost like a way of like a guarantee that I'm speaking to the right person, or I'm— I don't understand how I'd be able to tell the difference between like a clone account or a fake account versus the real one if they've both got a blue tick.
Al ElliottYeah, I think Stephen kind of agrees. Do you know what? I, I thought hard about this because again, there's a backlash from users saying how cross and angry they are. Actually, if he explained to me, um, how paying a subscription fee. And I've run the numbers, by the way, $8 doesn't make sense. It doesn't make a sustainable business. It probably needs to be more than that. But if he explained, you know, how he was going to invest that $8 a month in creating a sustainable business model out of Twitter and a platform that was a safe environment, then yeah, I would absolutely pay because Twitter has brought me a ton of value through my life.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI met my wife on Twitter. I've met countless people on Twitter. It's just a brilliant, brilliant public space for conversation, and he's destroying the value of it.
Leanne ElliottSo let's take some time to reflect on the lessons learned. If you are a business owner, there are some, you know, even a small business, there are definitely some lessons that we can take from this. And I'm sure you've drawn your own conclusions already. But let's flip it. I mean, what impact does the layoffs have on the actual leaders of the organization?
Al ElliottA lot, actually, in terms of what founders have to go through when they fire staff. I spoke to several of them. I had 49 interviews for that book, actually, with CEOs and VCs. And it's not easy on the founders. They get into mental health issues when they go through a firing spree. The second thing is the number of measures The founders I have spoken to have taken or took during the COVID period was, I mean, one was, for instance, how can we protect our ground-level staff or the grassroots of the organization by the management and some of the senior leadership, senior executives taking a 30% cut in their salary, 40% cut in their salaries. And then mid-tier managers, you go and give them an option saying, you can lose your whole team or you can take a standard cut across the organization. So many of the CEOs that I interviewed said people were willing to take cuts of 30%, 40% on their salaries than losing their team.
Leanne ElliottAl also had, I thought, was a really brilliant insight into maybe taking a different approach before you look at Redundancies as that final straw. You know, we've talked about disengagement on this podcast. You know, we talked about quiet quitting. Let's put that in the context of layoffs.
Al ElliottThere was one amazing insight that came from, from an investor in Silicon Valley where he had been through the process with 2 companies and where before he even identified people who were supposed to be let go of for various reasons, he would spot people who were, who he thought were anyways planning to leave. the organization. So if 10% of your organization are planning to get out of the door anyways, get them out of the door first. Give them a smaller severance package because they would be happy to leave anyways. And that reduces the number of people that you have to fire by 10%, which can be a big number in these times. So figure out every single way that you can protect your employees. And once you've done that, Uh, do not go about beating the bush, just do it.
Leanne ElliottSo I think at this point it's, it's really important that we make a distinction between Twitter and Stripe. It is not a direct comparison. Stripe is responding to an economic downturn. Twitter is responding to that plus an acquisition. So this scenario is very, very different. I asked Dr. Candice what advice she'd offer to any business leaders out there who might be going through a merger or acquisition and how they might manage layoffs effectively and most importantly, protect employee well-being?
Al ElliottI cannot recommend enough an appropriately planned change management process because really, as human beings and as a psychologist, I know this in trying to help people change for the better, is people don't like change. They, they are afraid of change. It's uncertainty. And so the more you can craft communications, give appropriate training, and really communicate to your employees in a way that makes them feel safe, or at least they know what direction things are going, um, can really be a valuable tool.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think the thing is, you know, transparency and honesty, as we've said before, is so, so important. When I asked Dr. Kanis about this, I thought she summed it up beautifully.
Al ElliottThey're letting employees know, right? Like we knew Meta had, I think, let people know at the beginning of the week or late last week that layoffs were coming. The days of infinite money in tech companies has come to a stop. I do think there are ways to message what is going on. in, in the world and relating that to what is happening in the business and kind of making the connections between the two. And then giving more of the why, why we've made this decision, because people also want to understand why you're cutting certain departments. How did you even make these choices? And it still may not satisfy someone's need for, for answers. But at least you're, you're trying to answer them. You're trying to be transparent. And what I've seen over a lot of the research that's come out from like Gallup Institute is really people want a transparent environment. They want to know what is going on, at least to the extent that they can know, because it makes them feel both trusted and that they Uh, aren't being lied to.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say Stay with Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottSo while this is a huge media story, it's also a human story. We will be offering some advice and support for those who have been affected by the layoffs, both at Twitter, at Stripe, and the other tech companies. But also, if you're just listening and you're going through this, Stay tuned, we've got some tips for you.
Al ElliottOkay, so I think there are— there's a lot of people who are qualified to talk about this, but Leanne's not only a business psychologist, but she also went through redundancy. What, about 7 years ago, was it?
Leanne ElliottI did. I was made redundant back in 2015. I kind of saw it coming, but not entirely. It was one of the most challenging experiences I have ever been to, emotionally, psychologically. It was a real real strain. Dr. Candace understands this, and she helps explain what we go through in this state.
Al ElliottIt's really hard because people will go into a panicked state once they find out that this is going to happen. And when people panic, it's hard to get them to think rationally. So there's almost like needs to be a cooling down period as well for that prefrontal cortex to get back online and be able to use that rational side of our brain. So I have a question then. So redundancy is clearly a traumatic and emotional experience. Is there a particular scientific or psychological reason why this is?
Leanne ElliottYeah, so I think, you know, Dr. Kahn has mentioned our brains don't like change. They don't like to feel uncomfortable. They don't like uncertainty. A little bit is good, too much, not so much. So when we, we feel this, this threat, you've heard of the threat Or what's better known as fight or flight. So fight or flight means that the brain and the body is getting ready to deal with a threat and basically send energy to those parts of the body that will help protect us, whether that's to run or whatever it is we need to do. So specifically, fight or flight arouses the amygdala. Now bear with me, I'm going to go a bit neuroscience on you, but I'm going to take it slowly, okay? So the amygdala is the part of the brain that controls our emotions and our motivations. This arousal triggers a physiological reaction. Our heart rate increases, our digestion slows, our immune system is suppressed, cortisol, our stress hormone, increases, and the blood vessels in our muscles dilate. As a result, blood flows away from our prefrontal cortex. This is where we do all of our considered thinking and planning and manage our emotions. It just leaves us. It leaves us. What are we left with then? Well, We can't think as clearly. We become anxious. We view lots of different things as threats, including people around us. Our psychological capital, or our ability to be hopeful or optimistic, goes out the window, and our stress levels go through the roof. It really is a physiological and psychological reaction that happens when we're in this threat, threat state when we're made redundant. It is a debilitating psychological reaction.
Al ElliottSo what does all this science mean for the people who've actually been made redundant?
Leanne ElliottWell, it's really flipping inconvenient, Al, to be honest. I mean, let's imagine we're just at the point where we need to be sharp, we need to try and make some sense of this, and we need to make some really big life decisions, but the chemistry in our brain— iPsychology— is basically being thrown around like a jumper in a tumble dryer. Our brains feel so overwhelmed and fuzzy, and Simplest of decisions can be difficult. We're less able to process new ideas. We can't think creatively. We also start to see our tribe, the people around us, as a threat. So, fellow colleagues that either have been made redundant or may have remained in the organisation, we see them as the enemy. We see them as the blocker towards getting that new job, and that just adds to all the stress and emotions. So, all in all, It's a great place to be, Al, when you're embarking on a job search that requires you to be mentally sharp and emotionally resilient. It's just marvellous.
Al ElliottI'm guessing that's your English sarcasm there. So, you spoke to Candice about this, didn't you?
Leanne ElliottI did. And fortunately, there are some actions that you can take. You know, as Candice explains, while she does make some reference to, to Twitter in particular, there are lots of transferable tips in there. So, let's have a listen.
Al ElliottTake time, honestly. Like, uh, take time to process what it is that you feel, um, and try to understand it. Uh, talk with people who are supportive in your life and really, uh, get those feelings out, uh, because you don't want to carry those. And there will still be a bit of a scar there, uh, from what happened, uh, but making sure that you have supportive people around you who can help you through that process. And ultimately, the amount of TWEEP or Twitter alumni is just amazing. Like, I think, again, it speaks to our culture of everyone who's been through Twitter is still supporting those that are looking for jobs or want to talk to somebody. I've probably Gotten at least 20 requests and forwarded those resumes on to people I know. And so I think it's a natural time for people to want to isolate, depending if you're feeling embarrassed or really just upset, angry. But try not to, because surrounding yourself with the people who support you can be more valuable than anything. And there's a strong network. So obviously, we were together when you were going through your redundancy. And I remember you likening it, I don't know whether it was beginning or middle or the end, to the 5 stages of grieving. So can you talk us through how that affected you and also remind us what these 5 stages are?
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. I definitely felt like that. And yeah, I think it took me a couple of stages in to make this connection, although it is one that I think we all have to make. that other writers and psychologists have made. I think this is where kind of Dr. Kannis is saying give yourself time. Um, you know, we look at the stages of, of grief. You've probably heard of them. First denial, then anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. I mean, you know, I talk about theory and talk about evidence. There is conflicting arguments about how exactly this works, whether it's linear, whether it's not, whether you finish one stage and move on. But I absolutely, having been through redundancy myself, totally connected with these stages and how I was feeling. So, I think that's the thing. If this gives you a vocabulary, if this resonates with you and how you're feeling, then go with it. Keep a little journal, write down how you're feeling that day, see if you can place yourself. Am I feeling angry? Am I starting to feel depressed? Um, and really just, just help yourself work through those emotions. As Dr. Candace says, you really have to feel it. And I think with that in mind as well, you know, self-compassion is so important during times like these. Go easy on yourself. This is a trauma. This is absolutely a work trauma that you are going through. And I know from my experience, it's one of the most challenging times you're likely to go through in terms of your career. So Be kind to yourself, find ways to calm your mind and your body. You know, mindfulness, exercise, they're all good ways to go. And I think the danger is that often people will start to neglect these habits if they already have them as part of their routine. Please don't, keep them up. They'll play a vital role both in your mental wellbeing and in your job search strategy.
Al ElliottSo, have you got any practical steps? Any of our experts got any practical steps to get around this?
Leanne ElliottI think in terms of the practical steps, of course, one, update your resume and update it with a viewpoint of your achievements. What have you really delivered in that role? Um, consider engaging an expert, and we know some excellent resume writing services that you can access, um, that are cost-effective and others that are a bit more bougie. Um, so if you do want to hear about those, do drop us an email. We'll give all the details in the show notes. Um, and yet reach out to recruiters. There are so many great Um, reactions on LinkedIn at the moment from recruiters of other tech companies that are reaching out to people who've been made redundant. Use your network, make those connections. People are in an empathetic space right now. So yeah, make sure you, you get the help, you ask for that help. Candace also advises to consider roles outside of tech. Your skills may be transferable. Let's hear about that.
Al ElliottEngineers have a lot of use in other industries besides tech. I get it. Tech is sexy. It has a lot of global recognition. It's, and it's honestly like sometimes fun and sometimes not that you work for such a brand name company that everyone knows. You'll get a lot of questions, but you'll also get a lot of opinions about your platform and what you're doing and how you impact it. But to have maybe a less high profile role or company can sometimes be a good backup. So there is the end of part 2 of what is probably the longest episode we've ever done here. In fact, it definitely is. I hope you've enjoyed it. If you've got any feedback or thoughts, you know how to find us. Just go to Twitter and search for Truth Lies Work. In fact, search any of these social networks. I think we're Truth Lies Work on all of them. If you do want the full story and you want the full interviews, then go to truthliesandwork.com.
Leanne ElliottJoin.
Al ElliottThat's truthliesandwork.com/join. And then you'll join us in our back— we've not really got a name for it. I've started calling it Culturologists, but I don't think that's gonna be the name we're gonna use. And it's just like behind the scenes and stuff. So check the show notes and you're gonna see links to Stephen's Twitter. Massively knowledgeable and amazing person, all about PR, and also just a genuinely nice guy as well. So definitely go and check him out. Um, if you're interested in, uh, Al's book, then it's called Restart Up: A Founder's Guide to Crisis Navigation, available on Amazon. Link will be in the show notes. And Candice has got a Twitter as well, Leanne, hasn't she? I think.
Leanne ElliottShe certainly has. We'll leave everybody's social handles in the show notes, and we'll no doubt tag them in our socials as well. As Al said, uh, Twitter, although we might get banned now. Twitter, um, Facebook, um, what are the other ones? Instagram, TikTok. @TruthLiesWork, or you can also email us at truthlieswork@gmail.com.
Al ElliottOkay, so next week, what are we doing? What are we talking about, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottWell, I think we're going to carry on with Elon theme just because he's around. Um, but yes, I think we've mentioned in this, in an episode before, that my thesis was in the dark side of personality traits, and in particular, what happens to leaders when they start to get out of control. Is this going to be the end of Elon Musk? I'm going to talk to an absolute expert in the Hogan Development Survey, and we're going to delve into the dark side of Elon.
Al ElliottSo remember, if you've not yet done it, then click that subscribe button and make sure that, that all of our future episodes come right into your inbox. If you've enjoyed this, help us out. Tell someone about it. Share it on your own Twitter. Maybe not Twitter. Maybe share on your own social network.
Leanne ElliottMaybe not Twitter.
Al ElliottAnd, and we're always open to feedback. We'd love to hear from you. So you You know how to find us, and we look forward to seeing you next week.
Leanne ElliottWhoo! Time for bed.
Al ElliottTime for bed and a cup of tea.