Episode 140 · 29 October 2024 · 52:39

BBC Email Blunder, Amazon’s Culture Crisis, and the Battle for BooHoo. PLUS! Will Giangrande's Hot Take on Gen-Z

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Introduction and news roundup teaser
news roundup#podcast-intro #news-roundup
BBC email blunder: Tony Livesey's incivility lesson
news roundup#bbc #email-etiquette #incivility #leadership
Amazon's culture crisis: former employee speaks out
news roundup#amazon #workplace-culture #employee-experience
The battle for Boohoo: Mike Ashley vs. executive bonuses
news roundup#boohoo #mike-ashley #executive-bonuses #corporate-governance
Hot Take: Will Giangrande on Gen-Z potential
hot take#gen-z #workplace-potential #hot-take
Workplace Surgery: Handling mental health leave requests
workplace surgery#mental-health #leave-requests #hr #workplace-surgery
Workplace Surgery: Personality testing in hiring
workplace surgery#personality-testing #hiring #recruitment
Workplace Surgery: Family dynamics in a family-run company
workplace surgery#family-business #family-dynamics #career-advice

Show notes

BBC Email Blunder, Amazon's Culture Crisis & the Battle for BooHoo — Plus Will Giangrande's Hot Take on Gen-Z

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down a cringe-worthy BBC email mishap, the growing wave of Amazon employees publicly criticising the company's culture, and the billion-dollar power struggle for Boohoo. Plus, Gen-Z workplace advocate Will Giangrande shares his Hot Take on why inexperience can be your biggest asset. And in the Workplace Surgery, Leanne tackles listener questions on mental health leave, personality testing in hiring, and family drama in family-run companies.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. BBC Radio 5 Live presenter accidentally emails his co-host — a critique of her performance Tony Livesey sent an email critiquing his co-host's performance — to the co-host herself. We unpack why these slip-ups are so damaging and why putting frustrations in writing is never a good idea. As Al puts it: "You live by the sword, you die by the sword. You slag off your colleagues in writing and accidentally send it to them."

2. Amazon employees are finally speaking out A former Amazon employee went viral on LinkedIn with her account of how the company's culture has changed for the worse — including being told to hide her tattoos. We explore why even loyal employees are becoming vocal about their dissatisfaction and what this means for employer brand.

3. The battle for Boohoo: Mike Ashley vs. Mahmud Kamani The Sunday Times reported on a high-stakes drama in the fashion world between retail tycoon Mike Ashley and Boohoo co-founder Mahmud Kamani over control of the company. With an investor lawsuit over modern slavery already looming, we break down the power moves and what they mean for employees.

🔥 Hot Take: Will Giangrande on Gen-Z

Will Giangrande, Certified Facilitator through Take Flight Learning and host of the 19 Year Old Shrink podcast, joins Al and Leanne to argue that inexperience can be an asset — not a liability.

Will pushes back on the "entitled Gen-Z" narrative, sharing how fresh perspectives and a willingness to question the status quo are reshaping traditional workplaces. He explains why companies that embrace Gen-Z's curiosity and innovative thinking stand to benefit — and why recruiting for past experience isn't backed by the science.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

Mental health leave: "I'm an HR manager and mental health leave requests seem to follow challenging performance discussions. How do I balance compassion with productivity?"
Personality testing: "I introduced personality assessments into our hiring process and candidates are being turned off. What am I doing wrong?"
Family dynamics: "I'm an EA to the CEO of a family-run company and I keep getting caught in the middle of family drama. How do I navigate this?"

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript

Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.

Al ElliottYes, we are. Welcome, welcome. A quick reminder, if you like guest interviews and hearing stories of how organizations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then our Thursday episodes are definitely right up your street. We bring you a brand new interview every single Thursday. And if you like to keep up to date with the latest news around the workplace, Then you're in the right place because today's Tuesday and every Tuesday we bring you our weekly news roundup and of course our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Nearly, nearly did that one without a mistake.

Leanne ElliottNearly. We are also back this week with our new segment, Hot Takes, where we uncover the truth and lies of work with the help of thought leaders, business owners, psychologists, and influencers. We are asking them for their boldest insights, whether it's a controversial prediction or an unpopular opinion. Nothing is off limits. We want to know what is really happening in the world of work. What is broken, and what on earth is coming next? So far we've had hot takes on AI, burnout, inclusion, and hard work. And this week we are bringing you our very first hot take from a Gen Z. We will be hearing from Will Giangrande, a psychology graduate, certified facilitator at Take Flight Learning, and founder of the 19-Year-Old Shrink podcast. Stay tuned for that.

Al ElliottBut first, it's your favorite time of the week, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottIt's my second time favorite time of the week, actually. I feel we need to correct this. My favourite time of the week is gin o'clock at 6 o'clock on a Friday.

Al ElliottOkay, well, assume that we have to wait for Friday, then it is your favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup.

Leanne ElliottIt is. Cue the jingle.

Al ElliottThat was smooth. That was smooth. Okay, Lee, what you've seen this week?

Leanne ElliottHave you ever accidentally sent an email to the wrong person at work?

Al ElliottYes, yes.

Leanne ElliottAnd that sinking stick feeling that you get when you realise it's too late to do anything about it? Yeah, me too. Um, this week The Telegraph reported on this exact thing that happened to BBC Radio Live's Tony Livesey, who accidentally sent a scathing email about his co-host Claire MacDonald's presenting skills directly to her.

Al ElliottOh God, Tony.

Leanne ElliottI know, we're all cringing for Tony right now. Um, but yeah, according to The Telegraph this week, BBC Radio 5 Live's Tony Livesey— Livesey, don't listen to Radio 5— Livesey reportedly, reportedly sent this email meant for somebody else directly to his co-host Claire. In it, he criticized her presenting style, with a source telling the newspaper, Claire received a message from Tony basically slagging her off and she was livid. She no longer wants to work with him and that has caused total chaos at the station, said source said. Um, understandable really. Um, since the blunder, Claire McDonnell has refused to work with him, leading to a major reshuffle at the station with presenters filling new slots to accommodate the fallout. Tony has also lost his coveted drive time position, uh, with Chris Warburton set to take over in December. Bit harsh, maybe. BBC spokespeople have been very clear and quick to downplay any direct link between this reshuffle and the feud. It's just a coincidence. Um, it's not really hard to connect those dots, though, is it? Um, another embarrassing public moment for the BBC, um, really. A few weeks ago, uh, another presenter, Laura Kuizenberg, mistakenly sent interview notes meant for colleagues to the guy she was planning to interview, which was actually none other than Boris Johnson, former Prime Minister of the UK himself.

Al ElliottOh.

Leanne ElliottUm, ultimately, uh, Boris Johnson's team cancelled that planned interview.

Al ElliottWhy? What did she say? Was it like bad stuff about him, or—

Leanne ElliottWell, it was, it was things that maybe she was going to push him on and the angle of the interview that he did not think was cool.

Al ElliottRight.

Leanne ElliottUm, yeah, so it's all a bit tense at BBC Radio 5 Live at the moment. Um, as always, Al, I'm interested in the science behind this. What can we learn from these types of things, and why do incidents like this cause so much chaos? In the workplace. I mean, sending any unkind message about your colleague is a bit awks, but what it is in the psychology world is an example of incivility. And incivility in the, in the workplace basically means a lack of respect and professionalism that instantly erodes working relationship. And when these toxic relationships continue, they can lead to reduced commitment to colleagues, dips in morale, and eventually increased turnover. What can you do about it as a business leader? You might have this situation rumbling on in your business. Disagreements are inevitable, of course they are. They don't have to spiral into ongoing tension. And actually, studies show that effective communication and clearly enforced policies can lay the groundwork for a civil work environment. Basically, you want to provide your employees with clear guidelines on respectful conduct and help everyone understand what is expected. That will reduce the chance of any disputes escalating. I've said it before, I'll say it again— culture is defined by the worst behaviors tolerated. The recent research also points to the importance of leadership roles in setting the tone. So when leaders model respect and civility, they create workplace where these values are prioritized. It's not enough to simply say the right things. Employees need to feel that they have safe channels to voice concerns and feel genuinely heard. If anyone's been following the BBC over the last few years and the shocking news stories we've heard about a lot of the talent, one does have to the leadership and the current culture at the BBC. Our thoughts.

Al ElliottI don't know, if I feel like I want to vent about a coworker, then I would probably want to go and find someone trusted and vent to them. Is that wrong? Are you saying that I can't do that anymore?

Leanne ElliottNo, I'm saying you just don't put it in writing.

Al ElliottAll right, so that's it. So it's just plausible deniability, is that what we're aiming at?

Leanne ElliottI think there's a difference between venting and with frustrations and then actually just slagging somebody off. I mean, ultimately Venting will probably not solve the issue long term. Venting might release that initial emotional buildup, but if you actually want to fix it, you're going to have to confront this person in a constructive manner to resolve whatever this conflict is so it doesn't escalate. It's not going to fix itself, do you know what I mean? And I think in terms of like putting stuff in writing, do you remember Nasty Nick off of the very first Big Brother?

Al ElliottOh yeah, yeah.

Leanne ElliottHe said, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. You slag off your colleagues in writing and accidentally send it to them, You're just gonna have to take accountability for whatever the fallout is, I think.

Al ElliottQuick tip. I was talking to my brother the other day, um, and, uh, I was telling him about this email address I used to have called angryal@ and my company name. Um, I think I might mention on the pod before, and if I was like annoyed with someone, then I'd send an email to the angryal. Anyway, I just set it up, so it just deleted.

Leanne ElliottWhat did you see this week, Al?

Al ElliottWell, Amazon. Amazon had never been renowned for their workplace culture, but are the Amazon employees finally publicly standing up to the recent changes in the culture? And I talk about recent Changes in a second. One person did this on LinkedIn this week. It was a former Amazon worker named Stephanie Ramos, Ramos, who shared her thoughts on LinkedIn. It really seemed to resonate. Her post got more than 100,000 views, and many comments were from current Amazon employees, which is kind of a first. Not many people, not many people, you know, who work for a company are willing to actually slag them off, like, so to speak, in public.

Leanne ElliottWe've just learned about that. We've just learned that the perils Exactly.

Al ElliottThis is the thing though. Stephanie has this unique viewpoint in that she previously worked for the company for 6 years as a logistics project manager before getting laid off in 2023. This year, which is 2024, she was rehired but decided to quit after just 3 months. She said she didn't really mind the return to office but was frustrated by the change she'd seen in the culture. This is in her own words: instead of the exciting, fast-paced environment I remember, I experienced a place Bogged down with pointless meetings and middling middle managers. That's a term I'm gonna steal— middling middle managers. But here's where it gets kind of interesting, because current Amazon workers started chiming in too on the LinkedIn post. Obviously, as I said, pretty unusual. They don't really criticize people in public. One longtime worker, which is called Laura Barry, she's been at Amazon for almost 20 years, joked that the company is becoming more like a boring corporate bank. She's not happy about having to come back to the office 5 days a week, saying, I'm waiting for a dress code to be implemented.

Leanne ElliottHmm.

Al ElliottAnd for my manager to say, hide those tattoos. Some, some workers are missing the old days when Jeff Bozos was— Bozos, sorry, Jeff Bezos. I know he's a long-term listener. When Jeff Bezos was in charge, Todd Leonhardt, who works as a developer at Amazon, said, love him or hate him, Bezos had courage and a vision. He had real all-hands meetings that weren't prerecorded, and he would accept hard questions. Prerecorded? I'm wondering if that's what the situation is with this new boss. Andy Jassy. Andy knows that there's problems. He's been cutting costs and laying off workers, which may make Wall Street happy, but doesn't do much for the worker spirits. He's clearly trying to fix things by getting rid of some of the management layers that are slowing everything down. I'm skeptical. I'm not sure necessarily he's getting rid of them to make a better culture. I think he's just getting rid of them to cut down costs. When asked about all this fuss, Amazon— this is the bit I think you're going to get angry about— when asked about this fuss, Amazon spokesperson didn't really want to take on these complaints. This spokesperson, Margaret Callahan, she refused to address the specific criticisms. She simply noted that Amazon ranked 2nd this year in LinkedIn's Top Company list, a ranking of the 50 best large workplaces compiled using LinkedIn data on such things as promotions.

Leanne ElliottHmm.

Al ElliottNow, I mean, Amazon's— I know, that's all she said. I mean, Amazon, obviously we've said before, is not renowned for its culture, but if all Margaret Callahan can actually do is point point out that they came second in some slightly dubious chart, maybe her hands are tied too, or maybe she doesn't care. I think the problem is that Amazon today is nothing like Amazon 10 years ago. And according to Stephanie, the woman who wrote the post on LinkedIn, it's unrecognizable even compared to last year. I suppose there's 2 parts to this. I suppose they have to decide if it's even worth changing. They run on tight margins. And so they may have just decided that good culture is just too expensive. Or They, they go the opposite direction and try and really change like the whole of the culture, the whole of the company. Gonna cost quite a bit of money and you're probably gonna lose a lot of people. And, you know, shareholders, do they care? Lee, thoughts, especially on Margaret Callaghan?

Leanne ElliottOh, I dunno. I'm, I'm, I'm, I think I'm over it. I think I'm over Amazon. Um, I should like to see that list.

Al ElliottWhat, the one with the top 50 where they're number 2?

Leanne ElliottI should. It's a dubious, as you say, it's a dubious list.

Al ElliottI think the number 1 was, was a big bank.

Leanne ElliottRight. Yeah, no, I'd like to see that list. Um, oh, I don't know. I mean, there's different ways of cutting it, isn't it? I mean, it frustrates me that Amazon still refers to themselves as a startup. Clearly you're not at this point. You're a multinational global corporation. I, I'm losing the will over the return to office. I posted some thoughts on that just today, um, that their reasons are complete bollocks. And as we learned last week, hybrid and remote work does not prevent us from creating connections. In-office work does not solve the culture problem. It's the same old thing, isn't it? It's lazy, it's controlling, it's coercive. It's not the culture that, that they had, but I think there's elements of the culture that are remaining, but maybe all the nice stuff is gone. So those kind of tenets of culture that have always been the same Uh, you know, quite controlling, very process-driven. They're starting to get a bit, a bit harder to deal with. Jeff, I mean, the thing with Jeff, you could— one could argue that yes, he brought this, this energy that only a founder can. One could also argue that he built the company to a point where he was incapable of managing it. And now this other poor person, it was Andrew— Andy Jassy, is trying to clean up the mess. Who knows? I guess you'd have to be on— Yeah. Either Jeff or Andy to know the answer to that question. Um, recorded all-hands bollocks. Why bother? Why are you doing that? Just don't even bother. All-hands is meant to be an interactive, engaging experience between leaders and employees. Pre-recording it completely defeats the point. You might as well send an email that no one's going to read. Um, I'm over it. Um, I think Steph— Stephanie seems like she's made her mind up. She's moving on. Um, and I'm sure, I'm sure other people will make the same decision, and I'm Amazon's plan to actually use this as an excuse, that we're going back to the office, use excuse to right-size their organization through natural attrition, will work out perfectly.

Al ElliottMakes sense. Makes sense. I've noted, I'm making a note that no more Amazon stories.

Leanne ElliottDon't worry. You can. I'm just, if you want to get me angry, I think I've used too much emotion on Amazon already. I'm now entering the era of I'm trying not to think about you at all.

Al ElliottWhat else have you seen this week, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottWell, speaking of things that are up to anger, angriss in the, in the in the world, the battle for Boohoo. Have you heard about this, Al?

Al ElliottNo.

Leanne ElliottDo you know what Boohoo is?

Al ElliottUh, yeah, it was— it was a clothing brand.

Leanne ElliottYes, exactly, exactly.

Al ElliottManchester-based.

Leanne ElliottManchester-based indeed. So the Sunday Times reported this week on a high-stakes drama in the fashion world between Mike Ashley and Boohoo. Mike Ashley is the retail dude behind Fraser's Group, big company, um, and is in an all-out push to take over a CEO of Boohoo, which, as you said, Al, is a fast fashion online platform known for brands such as PrettyLittleThings and Nasty Gal. This isn't just any corporate takeover. Mike Ashley's pursuit of Boohoo is shaping up to be one of the most intense business battles in recent business history. And it really is. Um, I did some research. So to back it up a little bit, Mike Ashley, if you haven't heard of him, started a single sports shop in Maidenhead. He is now a billionaire with a big reputation in the bricks and mortar retail world. Mahmud Abdullah Kamani is the co-founder and executive chairman of the Boohoo Group and has become a billionaire as well by jumping early on the online shopping trends. So these 2 are natural rivals and do have even more history. Back in 2021, Boohoo acquired Debenhams, a prize Mike Ashley had wanted for years. Then Fraser's Group managed to beat Boohoo in a bid for the struggling brand Missguided. And then in June last year, Frazer started buying up shares in Boohoo. Today, its shareholding stands at 27%, which should give Mike Ashley a voice in the boardroom, so he says, or maybe even the executive table, as we've heard Mike Ashley wants to be CEO of Boohoo. And despite spending much of his time in Miami and Mallorca, he has made it clear he's all in and ready to spend as much time in Manchester where BooHoo is based, to turn the business around. If you haven't heard, BooHoo has been in a bit of a pickle lately. Increased competition from a website called Shein that you mentioned the other day for the first time.

Al ElliottYou've not heard of it? Never heard of it. Didn't know what it was.

Leanne ElliottAnd then not to mention, they've also recently been hit with an investor lawsuit over modern slavery. So this latest clash started when BooHoo proposed £1 million bonuses for Kamani and other top executives despite all the company's struggles. Mike Ashley, bearing in mind 27% stakeholder— shareholder at this point, arranged a meeting with Kamani in London, um, where they clashed. He basically said, dude, not cool. Kamani eventually did scrap the bonus plan. And you do have to spare a thought for the poor employees who are watching all of this uncertainty fold out in the public forum. Oh, boys, boys, boys. Our thoughts.

Al ElliottSounds to me like a, um, like a fight about who's got the biggest, um, cigar, should we say. Um, also, I've never heard the word boo-hoo so often in such a short period of time. You seem to use that over and over again. I'm gonna be dreaming about boo-hoo. Um, I don't know. I mean, just the problem is when you get to that sort of stage, like, people are— didn't he buy Newcastle United or something? Or you don't— you get to that sort of stage, you're not really making decisions based on how to make more money. You make decisions on, on how to get more power or how to look fancier or how to basically get over your inequities. Um, and so I think just leave the boys to it, to be honest.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I wonder if it gets the point with these billionaires where it just becomes like Monopoly. It's just a bit of a game. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. And there's lots of, of research into kind of the dark side personality traits that can come out with this level of success, particularly with very ambitious, driven people, um, intelligent people as well. That could be a part of that kind of derailment, as we saw. I was at last week, a couple of weeks ago, with your story about the, the drama at WordPress. And, um, yeah, it seems to be a pattern, doesn't it, between these, these founders? I think this is a really cool opportunity for small businesses though. Like, if all this noise is happening in the corporate world, take it as an opportunity to go, like, you know, for the best talent who traditionally wanted to go and work for the big corporations to kind of go, hey guys, Come over here. We actually care about you. We actually create this awesome environment and we treat you well and we pay you all right as well. And the development's great. Um, I think it's a really good opportunity, um, when there's so much, yeah, noise happening in, in the corporate world.

Al ElliottWow. That is such a really good idea. It's something I never would've thought of. Go and steal them while, while the big boy, while mum and dad are arguing, go and steal one of the kids. That's, that's not a really great analogy to, to follow through on, but you know what I'm going with.

Leanne ElliottI do.

Al ElliottYeah. Very, very good. Okay, after this very, very short break, we'll be back with this week's hot take from a Gen Z. Do not go anywhere. See you in a second.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the worlds of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.

Leanne ElliottSo come back.

Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.

Leanne ElliottWelcome back. We are starting the second half of the podcast with our Hot Take where we uncover the truth and lies of work with the help of psychologists. business owners, thought leaders, and influencers. We are asking them for their boldest insights, whether it's a controversial prediction or even an unpopular opinion. We like an unpopular opinion. Nothing is off limits. We want to know what is happening in the world, what is broken, and what is coming next. This week we are bringing you our first hot take from a Gen Z. We are thrilled to welcome to the podcast Will Giangrande, a recent psychology graduate and certified personality assessment facilitator who is passionate about enhancing workplace culture and team dynamics. Will collaborates with companies to help employees better understand their personality traits, foster effective communication, and build stronger teams. He's also the voice behind the 19-Year-Old Shrink podcast, a show he started at college during the COVID lockdown as a way to explore self-development during uncertain times. On the show, he connected with leaders, coaches, and influencers discussing everything from personal growth to resilience. Today, Will is joining us to give us a hot take on Gen Z's unique value in today's workplace. Let's go meet Will.

Al ElliottMy name is Will Giangrande. I'm a certified facilitator through a company called Take Flight Learning. So a lot of the work that I do is using DiSC personality assessments to help with companies improving their workplace culture and their communication so that they can get a better understanding of their coworkers and understand, well, how do you communicate with people of different personality styles? So I've been doing that for a little over a year, and it's been a great journey. I had a little podcast, it was called, called 19-Year-Old Shrink. I started it during the pandemic in college, as you all know, is probably a very tough experience for a lot being indoors for most of it. And, you know, as a college student in a time when it's very social, it was definitely a very difficult and trying experience. So Basically, what I did is I interviewed a lot of people of different walks of life, whether it be mental health professionals, interventionists for substance abuse, whether it was financial planners who talked about personal finance, and just discussed a lot of the topics and issues that we might see in today's workplace, as well as just things that we might be experiencing in our lives and making it better to handle them as we move forward. So my hot take is that inexperience is actually an asset. So I think being a young professional, there are times when we definitely experience imposter syndrome. So this is where that self-doubt, that inadequacy start to creep in, where we start thinking that we might not be as competent as we appear to be. But as I'm beginning to learn, and this is something that I'm still learning myself, inexperience can actually be an asset. This age group, I think it's definitely such an interesting time because you are in a place where you don't have an idea of what the status quo is for an industry. So I think that is one of the things that young professionals bring to the table is, you know, if you're 5, 10, 15, 20 years in an industry, and this isn't to say that everyone's like this, but there might be a habit for you to say, well, this is how it's always been done. But when you're coming from a place where you just left college and you're entering an industry, And you're not really familiar with what the status quo is, that opens up the whole door for you being able to innovate and bring perspectives that might have never been imagined. Like, I'll give you, if I can give an example, I'll give you a perfect example of this. There's a movie, it's called Moneyball with Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill, and it's about the 2002 Oakland A's. And essentially what happens is in the 2001 MLB season, they lose 3 of their main players, Jason Giambi, Johnny Damon, Jason Isringhausen. to teams with all higher payrolls. So it left the A's with the lowest payroll in the MLB. And the GM, Billy Beane, he ended up hiring a 26-year-old Yale graduate, Paul DePodesta. He had a little bit of MLB experience. It wasn't like he was coming in cold, but he didn't have a lot. He was 26 years old. But he focused on something called sabermetrics, which is very common now in the MLB, but it's data-driven player analysis. But it was an unfamiliar concept at the time, which led to a lot of unconventional decisions that ultimately ended up paying off. So Billy Beane, he had a lot of experience in the league, but he recognized that he needed to shake things up. He needed to think differently. So he brought in someone like Paul who didn't have as much experience, but he thought in a very different way than other organizations. And what ended up happening? The A's went on to win 103 games that year. And had one of the best records in the league, and they had 20 straight wins, which I think was a franchise record. So as you're seeing, combining that experience with that inexperience and innovative thinking benefited the A's pretty well, and it can definitely benefit a lot of organizations. And that's what I'm seeing play out with my work too. When you bring in an inexperienced person right out of the gate, they often want to prove themselves. So they're self-motivated, they're driven, they're often asking a lot of questions because they're the youngest person in the room. And you're not at a place where, oh, if I'm like a lot older, I'm asking a 20-year-old for questions. There's not that uncomfortability with asking questions. So I think you're approaching it from a place of what you lack in experience, you make up for with these qualities. And that's not to say that experienced people aren't driven or self-motivated or humble. There's a ton of people that are. But I think when you don't have experience, then you're at a place where, okay, well, I need to make up for it. And You have a chip on your shoulder to prove yourself and to stand out. So I think you bring in a lot of fresh ideas. I think you bring in a lot of a willingness to learn, a readiness to take risks. And again, without any of those preconceived notions. And I also think it makes your work better as a manager. So as you were saying, Leanne, when you bring in these types of people into your workplace, let's say you're mentoring a younger person.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottYou bring in someone and I, when I was in an internship, we had mentors and a lot of the things that they said were, you know, it helped with my job satisfaction because I felt like I was contributing to something bigger than myself, that I was helping the interns. A lot of times the mentor or the mentees are asking a lot of fresh questions that you never even think about, and you start to look at things in a very different way. You also reinforce your own knowledge. So certain things, That a manager who brings in young people, they might— this might be second nature to them, but to the new person, it's not. So you have to reteach these things, and it starts to ingrain, and you get better at your work as well. And then lastly, what my mentor always said to me is it holds her accountable, because she's able to say, well, if I'm talking to my mentee about how to do things, then I better be doing it myself.

Leanne ElliottIs there anything else that you think is kind of misunderstood about young professionals, or you'd want to set the record straight about young professionals?

Al ElliottI mean, just building Yeah. Off of what we said about inexperience being almost frowned upon. When I was graduating from college, I was applying to a lot of jobs, and a lot of the jobs that I was applying to were entry-level positions. And what I noticed is that a lot of the entry-level positions required multiple years of experience. And there's an article, and I'd be happy to share with you and your audience, by BBC. It's named Why Inexperienced Workers Can't Get Entry-Level Jobs. And what was interesting in it is that 35% of postings for entry-level positions asked for years of relevant work experience. And other industries are even more common where it's 60%, I think, of listings for entry-level software and IT service jobs require 3+ years of experience for entry-level positions. And entry-level positions are typically those jobs that you would think are the ones that, okay, those are what you get when you don't have experience. So right out of the gate, when you're leaving college, there's always an idea of, well, you haven't had time to get the experience, but you don't have the experience, so we're not going to hire you. So I always thought that was such an interesting idea of, well, what happens if you're just leaving school? Like, what are the job opportunities? It's just another interesting thing that, you know, inexperience can sometimes be like, even in job description, it can be discouraging when you're applying to new jobs, when you're graduating from college.

Leanne ElliottI really like this hot take. I really like it. And I, I've also said this before, and I'll say it again, I think Gen Z are one of the most emotionally intelligent, articulate young people, group of young people we've ever had. Um, wow. As if Will is a young professional, he sounds like he's been in, in this game for, for years and years. I like what he said about bringing this fresh approach, none of this kind of clouded judgment Psychologists call that cognitive entrenchment. So basically, when people become really fixed in their ways of working, the longer they are in their field. Of course, it makes sense. Gen Z, less industry experience, no kind of preconceived ideas of how things should be done, curious, eager. Yeah, just openness to fresh ideas. That's the type of thinking you really want in your business, particularly as a small business owner. You wanna stay disruptive, you wanna stay creative, you wanna keep up with the competition. And one of the best ways to do that is to Bring in this diverse, fresh thinking.

Al ElliottWe hear a lot about Gen Z being called entitled, um, and he pushes back. He says that recent studies show Gen Z is motivated by purpose and wants to feel like their work makes a difference. And that can be a game changer for businesses focused on culture, like as you should be because you're listening to this. This generation isn't just looking for a paycheck but wants to align with like a company's mission and what they're going to actually achieve in the world.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I think, I think that's really important. And doing that as well from the beginning of your career.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottHow many people How many people do we know personally, anecdotally, and through the podcast who have gone through or going through very significant career transitions in their 40s? Because they've got to a point and gone, why am I doing this? It doesn't bring me any joy.

Al ElliottMm-hmm.

Leanne ElliottUm, so I love that Gen Z are thinking about that from, from day one. I also really liked what Will was saying about the professional development that Gen Z is interested in and the advice he'd give to, to any Gen Z who are about to join the, the workplace in terms of working on. Gen Z are digital natives, so our focus in in this business world the last ten twenty years has all been on developing people's technology skills because you know we're all trying to catch up even as an older millennial. I was you know well into university before you know using computers and the internet was a really really common practice. So yeah, Gen Z don't need the tech advice, the the the courses on that. It will be more about those softer skills like communication, that managing conflict. Slick that holding a space for somebody, interviewing, informational interviews. Um, yeah, I think that's a really interesting shift and one that I, I predict— my prediction for 2025, I think it's going to be talked about loads next year, soft skills development for Gen Z.

Al ElliottInteresting, interesting. I think it also makes a really good point about entry-level jobs. There's a whole meme, series of memes about this where, you know, you've got an entry-level job asking for 17 years experience. Um, you know, most recent graduates find themselves in this sort of like catch-22 where you need to have years of experience to get into a role, but obviously they can't get into a role until they've got years of experience. And something needs to change. And it's gone beyond a joke. It was funny when a few people did it, but now it does seem that where are the entry, you know, entry-level roles, minimum, uh, you need a degree and also paying you like 3/8 of piss all. So this has got to change and something's got to change in this, in this space.

Leanne ElliottYeah. And the science isn't— the science doesn't back it up. Science says that recruiting for past experience, unless it's very specific experience doing the exact same job again, ain't going to have much of an impact on work performance. What you want to be recruiting for is potential regardless of level of experience. There's so many ways that you can do that and assess that. You can look at work sample tests. You can look at situational interviewing. There's a science to recruitment. It's the most sciencey, sciencey thing in everything occupational psychology. Yeah, I agree, Al. It has to be, surely, that businesses start to, start to actually catch up on that.

Al ElliottThank you very much, Will. Um, we've, we've known Will for a little while and it's the first time he's been on the pod, so, uh, um, might not be the last. I thought he was pretty cool.

Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely brilliant. I'll leave a link to Will's LinkedIn profile in the show notes along with his podcast as well. Do check that out. It's, it's very, very good and honestly such a brilliant initiative to have started, um, during lockdown. We talk about innovation, guys, and that's What these kids bring. Um, I'll leave all the links in the show notes.

Al ElliottAbsolutely right. Okay, it's on to my favorite time of the week, which is the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Lee, I've got 3 questions this week. Are you ready for question number 1?

Leanne ElliottYes.

Al ElliottOkay, so I'm the HR manager for a small business, around 40 people. We've always prided ourselves on being mental health positive, but lately I'm struggling with how to handle certain situations. Over the last 3 months, I've noticed a pattern where mental health leave requests often come right after performance discussions or when we're heading into busy periods. For example, just last week, an employee who received feedback about missed deadlines submitted a stress leave request the very next day. Another team member has taken 3 mental health days this month, all coincidentally before major project deadlines. I feel horrible. Now, this is where I think you might get a bit grumpy about this, Leanne. I feel horrible for even questioning these requests, but also have a responsibility for the business. How do I balance being supportive with ensuring we're not enabling avoidance behaviors. I'm going to translate that for anyone who doesn't speak HR speak. This person is not 100% sure these are genuine, these, and they're going, oh well, they just seem to crop up at strange times in the, in the calendar. Are people just taking the mickey by putting in a mental health day? Over to you, Lee, and don't hold back.

Leanne ElliottI get it, I get it. As much as I, I kind of preach about creating very, you know, healthy, safe environments for people, I understand it. I've worked in a busy business where you've got strict deadlines Sometimes it's just a week of the month that's busy, and it can, as an operational leader, be frustrating when somebody doesn't come into work. That— you need to separate that frustration in terms of managing workflows, etc., with actually the people that you're managing. Um, what makes you think that these requests aren't genuine? They might be poorly timed from your perspective, but I haven't heard any evidence that they're not genuine. Um, people are taking these breaks when They've had a poor performance review. I would see that as they don't feel confident in their position in the company. They don't feel comfortable with how it went necessarily, or confident they can move forward. Maybe it sounds like there's a bit of shame wrapped up in this, a bit of disappointment, a bit of fear. That's maybe why people that are taking the days off. In terms of busy period, how often are these busy periods? How much of an increase on workload is that? Are people already busy and then you go through a busy period? That could well be stress. Coming through just with the anticipatory anxiety.

Al ElliottAnticipatory.

Leanne ElliottAnticipatory anxiety. Thank you. Um, of this period coming up. So that sounds kind of genuine as well. Um, I think ultimately, if you've decided you fundamentally don't trust your people, this is a much bigger problem and a very different problem to solve. It sounds as though you're frustrated because it's not convenient for you or the business when people are taking time off. If we assume that this is— these are genuine requests genuine reasons. And if you offer it, you have to fulfill it. Otherwise, take it away and never offer it again. You'll do more damage. I think you have to take it at face value, and I think you need to dig into why people aren't able to manage busy periods, why people aren't responding positively to performance reviews. Because ultimately, if a performance review is done properly in that first, that first instant when performance is starting to dip, it should be very constructive and very supportive. And let's set some goals and run it together and work What can I do to support you? And so it sounds like something else is breaking down here. I don't think it's fair for you to assume these requests aren't genuine. They sound pretty genuine. Um, I think it's more looking into why these times are triggering these requests. It sounds like these times are— people can't, can't manage them in the way that, that, um, that they'd like to. So they're taking that, that rest and, rest and recovery and mental health time that they need. Um, that's my thoughts. I'm not, I'm not sure. Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I'm not sure they are being cheeky here. I think it sounds genuine to me.

Al ElliottYeah, I think there's potentially 3 scenarios here. The first scenario is that some of this, that your team are taking these mental health breaks because they need to. So after these certain situations have happened, they need to. There's no two ways about it. There's, you know, the guys need some time to, to, to to digest stuff like that. The second thing is they're taking these mental health breaks as, um, extra holiday, as paid holiday. Um, they don't really care. They just want to go and have a couple of days off. Well, that's a rust-out or a burnout or an engagement issue. Or thirdly, they're taking them— taking these breaks because it's a big screw you. You've screwed me over. You've taken everything out of my— you know, I work so hard for you and I don't get enough pay, so I'm going to get my money back. In a different way. And I mean, there may be a 4th scenario, but those are probably the top 3 main scenarios if you don't believe they're genuine, or even if they are genuine, you know. So you've got— it sounds like you've got a bigger problem, like Leanne said, a bigger problem than just going, these people are faking it, these people are trying to get time off. It's much more endemic than I think, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottI agree. And I think ultimately, for any business owner listening who is thinking about putting in place mental health days or, or personal days or whatever you want to call them, You need to create policy and you need to honor it, whether it be no questions asked about why you want that time off, whether it be support mechanisms put in place on return to work after that, whether you can't say we're going to bring in mental health and well-being days, but they can only be used on these dates throughout the year with management authorization. Do you know what I mean?

Al ElliottYeah, pre-book your mental health day if you don't mind, please.

Leanne ElliottYeah, if you could just pre-book your mentee being, that'd be great. Yeah, it's silly, isn't it? It's a part of a bigger problem. This is a symptom of a much bigger, much bigger problem. So, you need to investigate that, I think.

Al ElliottLovely. Great answer, love. I've got question number 2 here, and I think you're gonna like this.

Leanne ElliottOkay.

Al ElliottSo, question number 2. I recently introduced personality assessments into our hiring process after a few bad cultural fits. They cost us time and money. The tests aren't anything intense, just standard workplace personality indicators to help understand how people might fit into our teams. The problem is we've had 3 really strong candidates pull out at this stage in the last month. One told us directly that it felt invasive and corporate for a company of our size. We're like, we're only 19. Another made it seem like we were untrusting. I get where they're coming from, but also need to protect our culture. Am I being old-fashioned here? Should I just trust my gut in interviews instead? Somewhat of an interview. of a personality assessment expert over here, Leanne. Has this got you wound up?

Leanne ElliottNo, I just don't want to.

Al ElliottGo on.

Leanne ElliottOh, you're just doing it all wrong. I'm sorry, there's no other way to say it. You're just doing it all wrong. Stop doing recruitment efforts yourself, please, for the sake of your business, its reputation, your people, your bottom line, your customers, everything. Now is the time to outsource, um, because there's some fundamental misunderstandings here in, in terms of how, um, psychological assessment at work works. And by that, I mean psychometrics and interviews. That aside—

Al ElliottApart from the fact that you're doing everything wrong, let's look at some of the stuff in depth that you're doing wrong.

Leanne ElliottIn terms of the, the personality, what, what this is actually a really good example of is candidate experience. I've talked about this a couple of times on the podcast before, and it's often overlooked. It's basically like customer experience. You need to think about the journey your customers go through if they're going to engage in your business and essentially buy from your business. By recruiting an employee, you want their buy-in as well, and clearly, you've not got that in the 3 good candidates that you've lost. As part of that candidate experience, it's really important to explain what the psychometric is, what it's designed to do, what competencies it's assigned to measure or what personality traits it's measuring that will be indicated— indicative of what is required for the job. There needs to be lots of transparency and communication about why this psychometric is included in the recruitment process. Equally, ethically, you should actually always make sure that psychometrics are voluntary. And if somebody chooses not to engage with those psychometrics as part of the recruitment process, that you give them some kind of alternative Or it's part of the process that is indicative but not used to make a fundamental decision. Speaking of which, you shouldn't be using any one selection method to make a hiring decision. You should use a combination. That is even more true of personality assessments because in terms of their predictive power, in terms of future work performance, they're one of the lowest measures that we can use. You're better, much better, using a structured interview.

Al ElliottMm-hmm.

Leanne ElliottA work sample test, that type of thing. So, yeah, I think I understand why these people have declined. It sounds like the process hasn't been explained to them properly. So, it does feel invasive and unnecessary, and possibly indicative of a culture they don't want to be part of, especially if they're a bit more read up on recruitment, the science behind it, and what they should be expecting at interview. So, yeah, I think we've got a process problem, which is a good A good thing, and it's always an easier problem to solve, a process problem, than necessarily a culture problem, but a process problem nonetheless, and it requires an expert. So, I'd say engage somebody like me, an occupational psychologist, to come in and audit your current process, give you some advice. A recruiter even can help you with this in a way of standardising the selection assessment criteria and ways of evaluating clients. They may even have their own Psychometrics is useful in recruitment, but it's certainly not what the majority of occupational psychologists would lead with in terms of assessing somebody's potential to perform in a job. So, I think just a bit of education is needed here. So, yeah, it sounds like everything that the candidates have said is very normal. No red flags from me. Um, in terms of, of what they're experiencing and what their reaction would be. Obviously, you want to nip this in the bud because the more candidates that talk potentially to others about that interview process and how they opted out, um, could start to affect your employer brand. So yeah, process problem that needs dealing with, but one that if you engage the right person should be fairly simple to sort out.

Al ElliottYeah, I think a lot of people look at recruitment and they think, well, that's the way that I was recruited and that's the way it's always been done, so that's the way it should be done. Recruitment, as Leanne said, is the most science of sciences of science you can do. Um, and the good news is that really you can probably get 85% of the way there with sort of a few sessions with someone like Leanne. Again, we're not selling Leanne's services. Go and find someone else nearby if you want to, if you want to work face to face with someone. Um, but although if you want to work with Leanne, then obviously drop us an email.

Leanne ElliottDon't talk them out of it.

Al ElliottYeah, very happy to take, to bank your check. Um, but the fact is that, uh, the fact is that it's A lot of it can just be systematized, like Leanne said. So it's like a one-off few sessions, get the things in place, and then potentially go in and and get some ongoing support from someone like that. I would just say if you've grown your firm to 19 employees, there's a very good chance that you know how to sell, and if you're selling, then that's very similar to actually hiring because you're still asking someone to make a commitment to. You. It's their time. And, you know, it could be a long time, could be the next 20 years of their life. So if you think a bit more about sales along the idea of sales rather than them, they'll be lucky to get a job with me. You wouldn't go to a customer and give them a personality test and say, I want to find out whether you're going to fit in with us. You know, you're going to be, you'll be wooing your person. You'll be also at the same time going, a few red flags with that one. So I probably wouldn't take that one as a, you know, I'm might put an extra price, put the prices up for them. But I think my point is that if you know how to do sales and you know how to build relationships, then you should have the principles of hiring. And then you just need an expert like Leanne to come in and just give you all the science behind it and all the stuff you actually need to build a proper selection and recruitment process.

Leanne ElliottAnd if you really can't afford it, and I'm not saying this is the best solution, but if you really can't afford to do that, probably the best thing you can do is just do a standardized interview. Same interview, same questions to every candidate, record their responses, compare an apple and an apple to try and understand from their responses the behavioural characteristics that you're looking for. Again, it's not the most ideal, but it's probably going to be better than dabbling in something that is very sophisticated and complicated and we maybe don't understand and could be doing damage. If you really need to strip it back, structured interviews, same questions, every candidate, it will It will give you some value.

Al ElliottOkay, on to question number 3. Um, this person writes in and says, I've been an EA to the CEO. I'm guessing that means that they're an executive assistant to the chief executive officer of a family-run software company for 2 years. I'm seeing a red flag already. Why are you calling yourself a CEO of a family-run software? But anyway, not my, not my circus, not my monkeys. When I started, it was just the founder, and they put the founder's name here, which I won't Readout. And his wife in leadership. Now their 2 daughters and son-in-law all have senior roles, and I'm caught in the middle of every family disagreement. Yesterday I had both daughters separately asking me to schedule the same meeting room for different meetings, each telling me not to let the other know. I love my job when I'm actually doing it, but I spend half my time now managing family dynamics rather than business priorities. The CEO's wife, Wrigley, asked me what her daughters have been saying And I'm starting to dread coming to work. I feel like I'm their family therapist rather than their EA. Help, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottUm, I think ultimately, if you're— if you were hired to be the EA to the CEO, go and talk to the CEO. Go and talk to the founder and go, dude, like, I, I used to love this, and you and me, like, we could figure anything out and make this business work like magic. Um, and now, understandably, people are coming on board as the business grows. That has shifted the dynamic. It shifted some of my understanding of expectations of mine, what my role and responsibilities is, um, what they— role and responsibilities are. Um, can we just have a meeting to clarify what there is, what the expectation is in terms of me being essentially an EA to, um, to the rest of the family? Um, it makes more sense to me that actually this is— this job is now requires maybe more than one EA, or there's some expectations, um, that need resetting in terms of of the other senior leaders that, that have come on. Um, I think it's easy to get quite emotive about this because there's family drama and you're trying to, you know, wrangle the cats, aren't you? I think I would in the first instance, um, step this back just in terms of my role has evolved. I would like to— like a meeting with my direct manager to understand what they want in terms of my roles, responsibilities, who I report to, the additional work I'm meant to pick up. How it works if I get 2 similar requests from somebody who's essentially the same level on the same day. Do some scenario testing, not necessarily saying this happened, but some of the scenarios you've had. You could go and say, what would you suggest that I did in a situation where person A and person B asked me to do the same thing without all the constraints that you've mentioned? I'd start there. I'd start with, in terms of what your expectations of your job are. Have that clarified. If it is clarified and there are some boundaries set in terms of what other people can expect from you, ask for your CEO's support in terms of reinforcing those boundaries. So, is it okay, Mr., Mrs., they CEO, um, as and when—

Al ElliottIt is a he.

Leanne ElliottIs it he? So, is it okay, Mr. CEO, if this request is made that I— if a request is made that I feel falls, um, beyond my roles and responsibility, that I either don't have time for or feel is a conflict of interest of other things I need to do, Do I have your support to say no? CEO goes, yeah, cool, cool. Then just say no. Um, you know, and it'll, it'll hopefully work its way out. I take it back to roles and responsibilities first, um, before trying to be that person that, that moderates the family relationships and how that goes. I mean, you're an EA. That's, that's a high-level job. It's, you know, in some, some places you call that a chief of staff. You're probably involved in some operational side of things.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne Elliottas well. It might be that you initiate this as a special project to, you know, for these people have gone on, all of the roles of the senior team defined in a way that makes sense and how they all interact and contribute to the business. It could be a really smart time to suggest that this is reviewed, the business has evolved to the point where we need to be reflective about what we need in the senior leadership team, who does what, why, who reports to who, etc., etc. Um, so I'd start process on this one. Sounds like some people have come in, some roles have changed, and that's not been clarified. As an EA, I think that's well within your realm, your area of control, your area of expertise to go to your CEO with that question and then follow up with, do you think this is a special project at the minute to reevaluate what everybody does? I'm sure at that point, it'll become very clear to the CEO that there are some interpersonal challenges occurring. And they'll be able to take the lead in, in how to solve that. But that— my thought initially, keep it transactional, keep it, um, within your roles and responsibilities. Try and control those boundaries rather than try and control the relationships of a family group.

Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. And go back to episode 26 where we had Stephen Short, um, on. He is an expert in exactly this, an expert in family businesses. Uh, he's got some really, really good advice. We put some great questions to him which he answered flawlessly. Episode 26, Business from Boardroom to Lunchroom or something. I can't remember what I called it.

Leanne ElliottKitchen Table to Boardroom.

Al ElliottThat sounds more like it. So, uh, go back and have a little listen to that, and don't judge us too harshly on the audio quality. And we were only, only baby podcasters back then. That was about 18 months ago. That is fabulously— if you have your own question you want me to put to Leanne, then the details are in the show notes. Just have a little look, there's an email there. If you want Leanne to help you with one of these problems that we've described here, if, if you have written in with this and you want Leanne to help, then you can contact Leanne in the show notes. Um, I think, am I right in saying that you give half an hour free to anyone who— well, not anyone, but you know.

Leanne ElliottNo. Yeah, pretty much anyone. There's no— there's the link in the show notes to book a direct meeting with, um, with Al, with Al or I. So, um, so yeah, if you want to take that, take that up, have that 30 minutes of free consultation, um, then please do. I look forward to your letters. So there you go, that's another Tuesday done. A reminder, if you like to hear stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then our Thursday episodes are definitely right up your street.

Al ElliottAnd if you've loved today with the latest news roundup and the world-famous weekly workplace surgery, then come back next Tuesday. We'll bring you more of this and also our hot takes, where I can't remember who's on next Tuesday, but I'm pretty sure they were good. I think we— they're on the calendar, but it's behind me. So I can't remember who it is.

Leanne ElliottYeah, we've got some cracking people coming up, so do make sure you subscribe, follow, whatever it is you're required to do on whatever app it is that you're listening or watching on. Come follow us on socials. The conversation continues between episodes, usually on LinkedIn. Trying against the TikTok, but my geriatric millennial mindset is resisting. Um, and yeah, get in touch, write in questions, all that loveliness. It's the best way to support the show, um, is to follow us and engage with the content and give us your opinion. It's not all about us, you know. Well, it's kind of a lot about us, but it is about you as well.

Al ElliottRight, we'll see you next week. Bye-bye.

Leanne ElliottWhat is broken and what in Scooby-Doo is coming next?

Al ElliottScooby-Doo? You never said that before. Sorry, carry on.

Leanne ElliottVery first hot take From a Gen Z. We will be hearing Z.

Al ElliottWhy do you say it like that?

Leanne ElliottDon't know.

Al ElliottZ. Gen Z. That was a nice noise.

Leanne ElliottBetween these two, when Boho proposed—

Al ElliottBooHoo.

Leanne ElliottBooHoo.

Al ElliottBooHoo proposed. And, oh, Giangrande. Have I got that right?

Leanne ElliottYes. You're always trying to rush me, Al.

Al ElliottI'm not trying to rush you. I just, I just want to make sure that we— yeah, carry on. And lately I'm really struggling with how does her— Sounds like you're really struggling recently, Al. I'm struggling recently.