Episode 141 · 31 October 2024 · 51:48
Gen-X's brutal honesty about work (and Gen-Z secretly agrees)
Gen-X's brutal honesty about work (and Gen-Z secretly agrees)
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Meet Annabelle (Gen-Z, MAP) and Jeremy (Gen-X, Change Work Life)
How each generation found their way into their profession
What university doesn't teach you about professional life
With hindsight — what would Jeremy do differently?
Diversity and inclusion: how far have we really come?
Mental health, burnout, and the Gen-X experience
Work-life balance — and the myth of the 'always-on' lawyer
Advice for 14-year-old Annabelle
What would we tell Generation Alpha?
The five big takeaways from this conversation
Show notes
Gen-X's Brutal Honesty About Work (and Gen-Z Secretly Agrees)
This Week on Truth, Lies & Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) bring you a special two-generation conversation. Featuring Annabelle Murphy, a Gen-Z client accountant at MAP, and Jeremy Cline, a Gen-X lawyer-turned-career-coach, this episode unpacks how two very different generations approach work — and why they might have more in common than the internet would have you believe.
From career paths and the meaning of purpose, to diversity, burnout, and the advice they'd give Generation Alpha — this is a warm, honest, and sometimes surprising look at what's changed in the workplace, and what hasn't.
Five Things We Learned
Hands-on experience beats theory every time. Both Annabelle and Jeremy said the same thing: real-world learning is what actually prepares you for work. University gives you the framework — the workplace gives you the wisdom.
Burnout isn't new — but the conversation is. Jeremy's Gen-X experience of mental health at work was "keep your head down and get on with it." The fact that we now talk openly about burnout and wellbeing isn't fragility — it's progress.
Gen-Z and Gen-X want the same things. Despite what social media suggests, both generations care deeply about purpose, fairness, and being treated like human beings. The stereotypes are louder than the reality.
Professional services have come a long way on diversity. Jeremy reflected on how much the legal profession has changed — and how much further it still has to go. Annabelle's experience at MAP shows what a deliberately different culture can look like.
The best advice is timeless. Both guests, when asked what they'd tell a younger version of themselves, said some version of the same thing: care a little less about what others think, network relentlessly, and don't take it all so seriously.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Al ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Al ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist. My name is Al Elliott. I'm a business owner, and we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottIt is of course Thursday today, so this is our regular Thursday interview series. If you like to keep up to date with the latest news and love a good Agony Aunt segment, then you'll like Tuesday episodes too, where we bring you our weekly news roundup, our brand new segment called Hot Takes, and our bank of workplace experts. And of course, our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Talking of which, It's your turn, Leanne.
Al ElliottThat's my line.
Al ElliottThat's your line.
Al ElliottToday we are investigating the difference in how Generation X and Generation Z approach work. So in an attempt to make this mini research fair, we've chosen 2 guests who are both in the professional services. Annabel Murphy is a Gen Z accountant who works in a predominantly Gen Z workplace, and Jeremy Klein is a Gen X lawyer who worked in a multi-generational workplace up until very recently. We wanted to ask them 4 questions. How did you get into your chosen profession? Each took a very different route. How do you approach meaning and purpose at work? And we'll discover what those differences are. Has diversity and inclusion changed over the years? Both guests give very frank and honest answers. Are there differences in work-life balance between the generations? The answers surprised both of us. And finally, we end with some advice for the next generation of workers, Gen Alpha, who are due to start in work in just over 2 years. So as we've— just to recap, we've got a Gen-X, we've got a Gen-Z, I will be offering a millennial point of view, and Al, I guess you'll chip in as and when.
Al ElliottYeah, I'm kind of redundant on this one because we've already got Jeremy, who's our, who's our bona fide Gen-Xer. So let's go and meet our guests and hear their stories.
Al ElliottI'm Annabelle Murphy from MAP. Um, I'm a client accountant. I've been at MAP for almost 3 years in November. Um, I love my job, not in a cliché kind of way, but I love my job. I'm really passionate about it, really passionate about my career. Um, I'm not quite famous, but if there's one thing that people know me for, it's just being happy and bubbly and chatting away and just being friendly and approachable, I think. And that I pride myself on.
Al ElliottI'm Jeremy Cline. Up until the end of last year, 2023, I was a lawyer. I was practicing for 20-odd years, and I was practicing in what we called the private client space, which was acting for some of the wealthiest people on the planet on their estate planning and personal tax affairs. I left that profession at the start of 2024, and I'm now an executive and career coach.
Al ElliottHonestly, I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I enjoyed maths in school. I used to sit in the back of the class. I used to find some of the classroom time a bit boring, so you sit in the back of the class and just do sums and algebra and just geek out. Um, but I was never really that focused in school. I kind of just flew through it. And my maths teacher said, you know, you're actually quite good at this, like maybe you should think about doing it. My wife's an accountant. Um, and I didn't want to like set on a job when— as soon as I left school. So I thought I was interested in economics and like I wanted to understand how it all worked in finance and business. Um, and then I went to sixth form And I was hoping to go to university and study economics. And when I went to sixth form, it was just too structured, like school, um, and I just thought, this isn't for me. And I thought, I'm just gonna go for accounting and see how it was. It wasn't what I was expecting. That's why I'm now so passionate about it. I did think that I would just be sat behind a laptop crunching numbers. I didn't realize it was as personal as it is, and you get to meet the people that you do, um, and I didn't realize that you could make an impact, as big an impact as you can. And that's now what's made me so passionate about it and why I love it so much. But why I ended up into it, I kind of fell into it because I enjoyed maths.
Al ElliottI blame the guy who was my best mate at school. I think we had, we both had the idea that we were going to be journalists. And I don't know whether it was like a rivalry thing or whatever, but one day he turned around and said, Jeremy, you're always arguing, you should be a lawyer. And the idea just stuck. And I was probably 14, maybe 15 at the time. And yeah, at those points where I kind of had to have a vague inkling as to what I was going to do with my career, it kept on leading me in law directions. I suspect I was probably influenced by TV shows, Kavanagh QC. I don't know if you remember that one. I used to watch it quite a lot. And the idea just stuck. And so when I came to do my degree, I did a law degree. You don't have to, to become a lawyer, but I did. And then went the path of, yeah, okay, apply for the training contract, get the training contract, qualify as a lawyer. And that's where I stuck for the next 20-odd years. If you are to believe social media, then there seems to be a huge difference between how Gen Z and Gen X approach meaning and purpose in their job. A lot of older people say that Gen Z value purpose in their work much more than the older generations. But is this true? Let's start with Jeremy, our Gen-X lawyer. It depends, one, where you find meaning, and two, whether that meaning aligns with whoever you're working for and how well that is articulated. A lot of the places I've worked have struggled, I think, to articulate what their own purpose is. The Simon Sinek thing, you know, what's your why? And it was certainly latterly something where I was struggling to discern the why, both for the wider business and also the team I was in, the legal team within the business. And then my why within that team. In the past, I've done work which was related to public transport, railways, the Underground, that kind of thing. And this stuff was relevant to how these things ran, and so there was going to be an impact on people. So if that's where you find purpose, then professional services that align with that purpose will be right for you. I mean, when it comes to being a lawyer, it's so broad that you probably can find your own purpose there somewhere. At the other end of the spectrum, there are human rights lawyers, there are criminal lawyers. We were talking about Rumpole of the Bailey, who famously never prosecuted and always defended.
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThere's family law if you want to get into the nuts and bolts of seeing what happens when relationships fall down. I think you've got to be a particular type of person. I think you've got to really love and want to do that sort of work. But again, if that aligns with you, then yes, you can definitely find it. My challenge or my invitation To individuals is to spend a bit of time figuring out what your purpose is, but also to the corporates to get a bit clearer, actually in some cases a lot clearer, as to what their offering is. The corporate mantras that should live rather than just live on the wall, that kind of thing. The bits I enjoyed most were where you could Visibly see the difference you were making with clients. So it was when you'd have the meetings with the client's presence and it felt more personal rather than— particularly in my area of law where the clients were the individuals rather than the companies, but you could see the effects that all this was having on them. For good or bad, and you were trying to make it better. So, some of my favorite discussions were not the ones about, well, if you do this, then this is going to be the tax consequences, and so we should do this and put this company here, but make sure you don't do this, da-di-da-di-da. It was where you'd take a step back and you'd say things like, all right, okay, so we've done all this structuring. You have done Extraordinarily well. You've got wealth in the tens or hundreds of millions. What's it all for? What are you going to do with this now? What's the purpose of this after you die for your family, for your grandkids? Is this generational wealth or is this just fun money for the next 3 generations so that they never have to work? It was Getting down to that, at, uh, you know, seeing, seeing the very real-world effects of what you were doing, that was the stuff that I really enjoyed.
Al ElliottTalking of generations, what does our Gen Z guest Annabel think brings meaning and purpose to work? It feels like it should be very different to a Gen X, but perhaps not. I think you've got to be a bit passionate about it, especially when— if I'm speaking from MAP and experience that I've got, I think you've got to be passionate about it. You've got to want to work hard. You've got to care. We've got— and I, I don't even mean to say this in a cliché because I'm, I'm here from MAP, but we've got 4 core values, and they're be brave, be caring— better not forget this— team player, and dependable. And I genuinely think they are the best 4 core values that you can have. Working in a, in an industry like this, you know, you've got to care for your clients, you've got to care for the people that you're working with, you've got to be brave, you've got to put yourself in situations where you're out of your comfort zone, you know, you've got to deal with people that you've not necessarily dealt with before, pick up the phone or have difficult conversations, um, and you've got to be able to depend on your team, you've got to be able to depend on your clients and stuff like that. And I think it's— if, if you can, if you're that kind of person and hire and fire by those core values in the that if you are that person, you know, we can teach you anything. We can teach you how to prepare a set of accounts, but you've got to have those— you've got to be that person. If you— and you're genuinely passionate about it, I think then, um, then it'd be a really good career. But I think the biggest part about accounting, and I think is one biggest misunderstood thing about accounting as well, it isn't just sitting crunching numbers. I think it is being able to translate information that people can then make life-changing decisions on. The people are making big decisions in the businesses based on the information that we're telling them. I think you need to be able to build a relationship with a person and, um, to be able to trust them to be able to make these big decisions. And that, I don't think you can ever take away. I think that's the biggest part of accounting. I think that when you're surrounded by the people, like especially the people that I work with now, and, and like looking up to Paul Barnes and like, or just the other people that I work with, that does inspire you, make you want to do better and carry on being so career-focused and achieve. And working with business-minded people, people have constantly got new ideas and are excited and pushing things forward, that obviously makes you wanna— I think it's a combination of all 3.
Al ElliottAnnabel works at MAP. Now, we did a full episode on MAP back in episode 127. Definitely go and listen to it, really, really interesting episode. MAP is unique in that they almost exclusively employ apprentices, which is how Annabel started. So the workplace is not 90% Gen Z. I wanted to know what a workplace packed with younger employees looked like and what actually motivates them.
Al ElliottAgain, this is going to sound cliché, but it's the core values. Yeah, 100%. We, we, we all— I think we all resonate in them. I don't think I've ever worked anywhere known, um, and I'm not just saying this because I'm up, I'd say it whether I was speaking to you, whether speaking to my friends, whether speaking to anyone, um, I've never worked anywhere where the team are as strong as They are here, you know, everyone really looks out for each other, works together, um, looks after each other. Everyone's willing to learn. That's the biggest thing. Um, and like I said before, Matt, any accountancy firm can teach you how to do a set of accounts or trial balance, or, you know, it's not that that's important. It's who you are as a person. And we've got a really nice culture here. We all work really well together. And if you, you— this is that kind of person could teach you anything and you You'll deliver. I think the biggest thing for me, and the, the reason why I think it is so interesting, is you're working with people that are, like I said before, really interesting. They've always got new ideas. They're business-minded people. They're exciting people. And, um, that I find interesting. And then the, the best bit is when you see a plan come together. You see a business owner, no matter what the size or shape, no matter what the makeup of the business is, they've got a plan. They're— even if it's 5 years' time, 3 years' time, they're looking to sell the business. They're looking to grow the business massively. They'll look— they're They've got all these wonderful ideas, and then you're reporting on it month after month or even quarterly, and you get to the end of the year and you get a couple of years later and you look back and you think, wow, they've achieved it. And you've kind of been a part of it even through the times when they've been really struggling, or the times that, like, the little milestones along the way— they've won a big client or they've, they've, they've hit a revenue milestone. That's so rewarding. And that, that's brilliant, especially when you've sat there and you've been through the numbers all the way through and That's the bit I love. Jeremy has 20 years experience in work and Annabel around 6. Jeremy did a degree and Annabel started as an apprentice at 16. So do they have different ideas around what the best route is into the professional services? I don't think there's anything that can beat hands-on experience. You know, you go to university— I've never been to university, so I'm not sure, but from my opinion, you go to university, you get a degree, and although you've got all this knowledge and you've never sat in front of a client, you've never had a, an ex— like a conversation, you don't know how to properly communicate, like, you know, you know, the communication and stuff like that. And the difficult conversations, you've not got the experience in that. Like, you might be able to sit and go through a load of numbers, but in real life, when you've got real life things going on and it's not just textbooks, it's totally different in my opinion. So I, I'd urge anyone to Get hands-on experience, get an apprenticeship. Having said that though, I think if— so I started my apprenticeship when I was 18. I started at another company that wasn't MAP, and I was there for a couple of years first. I think if I'd come to MAP at 16, they'd— they wouldn't have kept me. I was too chatty then. So I don't know, maybe it worked in my favor that I had a couple of years just studying first before I come into such a professional setting, because I was just, I was just a giddy 16-year-old at first. Maybe it would have been too serious for me.
Al ElliottA law degree, certainly my law degree, does not prepare you for professional life at all. It is an academic subject. You are learning law in the way that you might learn philosophy or history or something like that. It's not like an apprenticeship or a skills-based degree. When you go to law school, you start to learn much more about the nuts and bolts of it. One of the things that I certainly realised was when I started, my belief was that it was best for me to work for a big city law firm. They paid well, they had a good reputation, they took crème de la crème. So, that was where I focused all my applications for training contracts. So, I think some people go in with a vaguely clear idea of what they're going to want to do. But when I started, apart from having this idea that I wanted to do intellectual property, I didn't really know what any of the work was or what it involved.
Al ElliottInteresting that they both said hands-on experience cannot be beaten. So with hindsight, what would Jeremy do differently? Find out after this very short break. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Al ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Al Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the worlds of politics, business, and brands as well.
Al ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Al ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Al ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Al ElliottSo with hindsight, what would Jeremy do differently?
Al ElliottI think the advantage I've got now is that my 40-year-old self has got Different interests, different knowledge. Obviously, the world has completely changed. I like to think that I would have used better the resources which are now available. There's so much content out there— podcasts, YouTube, whatever— and maybe even coaching. I mean, I don't think coaching existed for 18-year-olds at the time, whereas now I've heard of it, to get a better idea of where I might start. I mean, when you're 18, what jobs have you done? You've maybe worked the checkouts at the supermarkets or served at a restaurant or something like that. And so you've probably got some clues as to what you like and what you enjoy doing, but that gets refined over time. And so I suspect that would probably still happen. I think the shift is that it's now okay not to know what you're going to do for the rest of your life, or that's possibly better anticipated. There were loads of people at university who did degrees and they didn't have a clue what they were going to do after they graduated. It might be history or economics or art history or whatever, and then these people go and become teachers or accountants or lawyers or whatever. The advantage that people now— my goodness, that makes me sound old— all these young people, they don't know they're born. But the advantage now is that there's more information available, more opportunity in different directions. with just the age of digital and a greater acceptance that there's not necessarily the expectation of a career for life. I mean, I don't think that I'm unusual in my 40s still grappling with the idea of, you know, what am I going to do when I grow up? But I think it's now just become a bit more normalized and that people at the start of their career, that's kind of more of an acceptable attitude to have. It feels very much like an us-and-them world at the moment. There's a lot of people suggesting that different generations have different approaches to diversity and inclusion. In something like professional services, for example, I would have expected to see a bit of snobbery around which university you went to, for example. So I asked Jeremy if this was going to be right. I think less so than you might expect. Where you go to university certainly was relevant. I think that again, with the the big city firms, they're going to be interested more in Oxbridge and red bricks. But again, I mean, I haven't been involved in recruiting trainees, certainly not for a long time, if at all. A firm that I used to work for had a reputation for being very sort of blue blood. There were partners who went to Eton and Oxford and Eton and Cambridge, And that kind of thing. But it was also one of the friendliest places that I ever worked. I definitely occasionally felt like this imposter syndrome, like, crikey, what on earth am I doing here with all these people who went to private schools and that kind of thing? There's a friend of mine who is involved with trainees and they have many more safeguards in place to, like, you know, blind CVs and that sort of thing, just so you can't have any kind of unconscious biases about where people went to school, that sort of thing, you know, hide gender, ethnicity, that sort of thing.
Al ElliottAnnabelle is a young female professional in what might be seen as a traditionally male-dominated industry. We had to ask her if she had felt any kind of discrimination at work. No, I don't think so. I've never been exposed to it like the whole way we've been to school and stuff like that. Like, I'm from Oldham, you can tell my strong accent. I just went to a local school near me, went to Oldham College, um, and there was never, oh, what school have you been in and stuff like that. I've never been exposed to that. I think the only thing that I could probably comment on that resonates with me is my own— me thinking I'm just a young girl.
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottHow am I gonna— how am I gonna be able to advise these businesses, these decisions? Or not necessarily advise, that's probably the wrong word, but how am I supposed to have these difficult conversations and explain things in a way that these people are going to actually listen to me and think, you know what, she knows what she's talking about? But I think again, that comes from building a relationship, building trust with someone. You know, you deliver for someone and you deliver and, and that they appreciate what you're actually saying to them and you are making a difference, then eventually in time it's just a trust that builds and that goes away. But I think that was more from my own personal— I, I am this person, people aren't gonna respect me in a way, I suppose. I think you really— you do hear some stereotypes of stuff like that, but I think not. I think now in this kind of day and age and people are as, um, especially like I'm on like LinkedIn and you've got people that like are really thriving for businesses and pushing, and you've got Like, um, there's so many women out there now as well that are also pushed. Like, you know, you can see that they're ambitious. And it's— I don't think— I don't think— I don't know if this is right or wrong for me to say, but I don't think there's ever that limit. You are who you are as a person, irrelevant of your gender, irrelevant of your age. If you've got a mindset, I'm getting this, I'm doing it, I'm going for it, and this is my career choice, go get it. Your genders and your age is irrelevant. In my personal opinion. Um, and I think that's what people are doing now. I think there's— people aren't scared of going for what they want anymore. There's, there's no one holding you back now. It's only, it's only you that can do that. I, I know I don't think there is, uh, that much of a stigma. If there is, I've not been exposed to it. So I was, um, away recently and I was talking to a, a lady and she was, she was a lawyer. She was Canadian and she was probably— I wonder how old she was. Uh, she was probably about 35, and I asked her the same question. She was very outgoing as well, and I was talking to her and I said, do you ever— I'd literally asked that question, do you ever think that there's a stigma? Do you ever— when she said, yeah, but I love it. I love that if someone sits— is sat in a room and I go in for a meeting and they think, oh, I'm just a— and I sit there and blow the socks off by what I'm telling them. She was like, it's, it's like, because I don't want people to think that. And I was always scared of that, and that, that conversation sticks out to me because it's something that did bother me. And, um, that— it's kind of changed my mindset on it now.
Al ElliottNow, I'm Gen-X, and back when I started work, there was not really any sort of appreciation of mental health, certainly not in the workplaces that I joined. Also, my father, who's a Boomer, didn't really feel there's room for work-life balance, something which I think a lot of Boomers actually felt. So how do the different generations approach mental health and work-life balance? The most obvious symptom of lack of balance and poor mental health is burnout. So I asked each of our guests about burnout. out and whether it's linked to management and culture. Now firstly, we're going to hear from our Gen Xer Jeremy, then of course our Gen Zer Annabel. I can say that burnout definitely exists in law, and I have seen people get ill as a result of just working silly hours and, um, doing high-pressure work. Law is odd in the sense of the way that people are managed. And other people have said to me that it is a really weird system compared with typical corporate, in that line management still seems largely to be a bit of an afterthought. Line managers in other places, I understand it that a good proportion Probably around about 50%. I mean, you'll know this better than I will, Al, but a good proportion of the work is the line management. It's having those one-to-one conversations with your direct reports, and it's coaching them, figuring out what they need, figuring out where the roadblocks are. There are some lawyers who are exceptionally good people people, They are good at line management, but I'd say that they are probably few and far between, and there is a massive gap in training. I mean, maybe you get, I don't know, a half-day line management course, something like that, but it's not prioritized, and people end up doing it off the sides of their desks. A lot of them just don't want to do it. It's slowly, slowly Better line management could have a transformative effect when it comes to mental health and burnout. And having coaching conversations— I was reflecting on this the other day. People sometimes say to me, now I've moved into coaching, oh yeah, well, that makes sense as a lawyer because, you know, you've got to ask questions and that kind of thing. And I thought, lawyers make terrible coaches because they're paid to find solutions. And coaches don't offer the solution. They don't tell people what to do. They provide the space within which someone can figure out what they need to do. They might have some suggestions, but what lawyers do is they collect facts and then they tell you what to do and how to do it. That's not coaching. And it's an important distinction, and it just means that a line manager lawyer, rather than frankly shutting up and creating space, is more likely to do all the talking, which just isn't effective. And I know this is something that you and Leanne, Leanne in particular, are always going on about, but—
Al ElliottYeah.
Al Elliotttrain the line managers. My goodness, it would make so much difference, particularly in professional services.
Al ElliottI think there's a pressure on you, or at least I feel the pressure sometimes, but I think that's because— and I think it's right too— I think I've got a job with a responsibility, you know, I'm, I'm providing a professional service. Um, there is a certain amount of pressure on you and responsibility, um, and I think if you're someone like me that's pushing to for more. And, you know, I want— like, I enjoy it. I enjoy getting close to these businesses and stuff like that. Um, that can take a toll on you, especially when, like, I know I keep saying it, but I get so caught up in it and I care so much. That can, um, really bother you. You don't want to deliver— you don't want to not deliver for clients. You don't want to meet deadlines. And sometimes, as everyone experiences, especially people in the, in the business world will obviously experience, you know, you're trying to keep above board on everything and you're trying to deliver for everyone. Sometimes when you get busy spells, that can take a toll a little bit. I, I just think it's just being able to, um, keep up. And sometimes, you know, you, you've got a— I had a conversation with someone at work recently, like, it's not, um, do you, do you feel— we really did a survey and it says, do you feel well enough to come to work? Will you come to work even if you don't feel well enough? Was the question. Um, I think it was one of your surveys actually. And, um, the we was all talking about it and we said physically, no, I wouldn't. But mentally, if I didn't necessarily feel up to it, I probably would still come to work because it's in my mind. And I don't— I, I obviously can't speak on behalf of everyone, but I think that's a big thing. I don't think that's just professional services, and I don't think it's spoke about enough, and it probably should be. But yeah, I think, I think, I think the good thing now is we've obviously, we've got the social media that influences us so much. That adds pressure that That I think is incredible. But I think we're also— we start— people are starting to talk about it a little bit more now. It's certainly in my experience they are. I don't know if it's because I've personally this last 12 months been a bit more open to it, um, in— and when I say it, I mean, um, actually really focusing on my own mental health and realizing it's so important. Maybe that's why I feel like it's being spoken about more. But I recently read a book I might be going off on a tangent, but I feel really passionate about this as well. I recently read a book and it's called, um, Why Has No One Told Me This Before? And, um, it was— it's by— I hope I get this right, but I'm sure that the author was, um, a counselor or a therapist or whatever, whatever word you wanna, um—
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd the, the, the point of the book is that she says it's not therapy, it's not counseling, it's, um, a book of life lessons and life skills that you can use at any point through your life that helps you through difficult situations and then puts your mind in into perspective. And like one of the opening pages said, you know, it's so common, so trendy now to be into your fitness and looking after your physical appearance, and people don't speak about mental health as much. And it's just as important. You've got the same body for your whole life, and you should look after it. You've got the same mind for the whole life. You should be looking after that. You should be. And that's not just meditating and stuff like that. It's being kind to yourself, being kind to other people, and just living in a nicer Um, thing. So I, I've recently been really, um, trying to focus on that and improving mental health and understand mental health a lot better. Um, and I think in turn, me doing that has helped me speak about it more. And I just— it's something I'm speaking about at MAP as well, for us to really start doing it. If we could all become our best versions of ourselves in the world, like, how powerful could that be? Burnout and poor mental health is not new, but Annabel's generation seems more open to talking about it and will happily take action. But what about Gen-X's take?
Al ElliottI've never been someone who wants to work the long hours. So, I've done it when I've had to, but it's only been when I've had to. And I remember a conversation with the partner I was sharing an office with. At the time when I was maybe 2 years qualified, something like that, and she made the observation, look, if you want to succeed at a big city firm like this, you're probably going to need to work longer hours. And I didn't think, yay, I get to do more of this. I thought, I want to avoid that like the plague. I think the fact that I wanted to have my life outside work, and I saw that as being more important. I perceived at the time that that was a barrier. There may well be people listening to that going, well, that was your problem, not the place you were. But there are hobbies which have persisted no matter where I've been. So for example, I've played flute for nearly 40 years, and when I first moved to London and started work, I joined an amateur wind band. That once-a-week playing was pretty much sacrosanct throughout the whole of my career, and I would see work as getting in the way if it prevented me from going to one of my weekly wind band rehearsals. My attitude was that was the important thing, that was more important rather than—
Al ElliottWork.
Al ElliottJust recording more chargeable hours, which just meant that it was a late night for me and not something I particularly wanted to do. Working long hours, it was definitely something that I perceived was expected and people did do it. And even right up until my last job, I always felt like I was the person leaving first. So I don't know whether it's presenteeism or whether really people are that busy, but I, I did get the impression that people were still expected to put the hours in. We thought it'd be kind of interesting to ask what advice each of our guests would have for the next generation, which is Gen Alpha. Now, the first Gen Alpha was born in 2010, so the oldest will be 16 in 2026, which is only just over 2 years away. Firstly, we'll hear from Annabel, the generation closest to Gen Alpha, then from Jeremy. Just want to give a little bit of context here, depressing context. Gen X are 3 generations above Gen Alpha, so they are the boomers to the Gen Alpha, which really isn't something I really wanted to say. Anyway, here's Annabel's advice for the next generation to hit the workplace.
Al ElliottThe other day I'd seen a post, I can't remember what, I think it was on like TikTok or something, and it said if you could sit in a— you get paid a million pounds if you sit in a room with your 14-year-old self, but you tell her what's about to happen. And I was thinking, what, what would I say? And I wouldn't be able to say, like, get it out. And, um, yeah, 100%, I'd say go down exactly the same path because you're at such an impressionable age. And the things that I've been exposed to at this age, um, the bound— that I've been put in positions where I've really pushed my boundaries, it's made me a strong person. It's helped me develop as a person. And I think it was just this whole experience this last 6, 5 years, however long I've been working in practice, it's just been amazing for me at this age. point in my life.
Al ElliottSo you're in this room with 14-year-old Annabelle. You're not allowed to tell her what's happening, but let's say the rules say that you can give her a bit of advice. So what advice would you give her about entering work?
Al ElliottNumber one would be try not to be so emotional. That is one big thing for me. I care so much, and sometimes there's things out of control in life. There's just things out of control, but I get so attached to things, and I'll get so upset if something goes wrong or something not in my control, or I make a mistake because we're human, and it really— I really struggle to bounce back from it. And but sometimes you've got to understand, and it's obviously something I'm dealing with at the minute, like you just gotta take yourself out of a situation sometimes and not let yourself get too tied up. That'd be the number one thing— stop getting so upset about things. Another would be just enjoy it. I, I've only just recently started doing that. I was so just hung up in getting through and getting to the end and seeing the final goal. I want to be a chartered accountant, I want to be, I want to be a finance partner, I want to own my own accountancy firm. And I've only just recently thought, why am I pushing so much to get to that end goal when really I should just be enjoying this whole process? Like, you know, just stop focusing so much on where I want to be and just be here and now. Definitely that. And as well, like, I think another big thing is your work-life balance. And people talk about it, such a stigma around it. I think if you find something that you enjoy and you're passionate about But it's, it's, it's part of your life, whether you like it. It's not a work life. You— it is, this is your life, you know. You do what suits you and you work around it. Um, so don't be too hung up on that either. Probably be the, the main— and keep going just when you, when you're having the down days as well. Just keep going. I could go on forever for these. But just keep going, you know, when you hit difficult times. Um, I think obviously that happens when you grow up anyway, that you realize That, you know, when you have a setback, that you will bounce back and things will get better, and it's not the end of the world. Um, but when you have those little setbacks, don't think it's the end of the world and just keep pushing through, and it makes you a stronger person.
Al ElliottProbably the most powerful thing that, frankly, anyone can do is networking. And I know that for a 14-year-old, it might be a little bit intimidating, um, finding these people to, to speak to, but But I remember my dad took me into his company for a conversation with the in-house lawyer, which was informative because I was thinking about being a barrister at the time. And he said, don't be a barrister. And I'm sure he had lots of good reasons for doing that, but that basically meant that I didn't pursue that option.
Al ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottas many people as you can to speak to. If you've got— I mean, maybe not for 14-year-olds, but I'm involved with a university mentoring program at the moment where I mentor law, both graduates and undergraduates, for those purposes, to help them figure out, is a career in law the right thing for them? And if so, how do they do it? So Speak to as many people as you can. When— if you find someone to speak to, ask them who else you should speak to, to expand that network. Search for a day in the life of— hopefully not just sugar-coated stuff, but if you look at enough of them, you're going to get a good idea as to what's involved and whether something is for you. The most important question for anyone who is starting out— I mean, you 14-year-old, it could be an 18-year-old, it could be a 21-year-old. But what we talked about there, about going out and speaking to people and building your own network at an early stage, I think that's— if I had to pick one takeaway, one piece of advice that I'd like to leave people with, it's that. Go talk to other people.
Al ElliottA couple of years ago, the Ellie Sparkles Show, a YouTube show aimed at children, surveyed 1,000 5 to 8-year-olds in the United States about what they wanted from work. The 4th most popular job was a YouTuber. Whilst that might get the Gen X's and boomers chuckling over their cocoa, Annabelle is a digital native, so she knows that this isn't as a ridiculous job aspiration as it might sound. She has some advice for all alphas, regardless of whether they want to be an accountant or an influencer? Because of the responsibility and the pressure and the fact that it is a big thing. Like I say, on the flip, it's nice that I can have that impact, but also people are running these businesses for their lives and things don't always go as planned. Things don't always go the way people want. Sometimes things go wrong, and sometimes, like I said before, things are out of control, out of your control. Um, sometimes knowing that I'm waking up and I'm working on something that where a client isn't maybe in the best financial position And I'm only relaying that information to him, and I've got to have a difficult conversation with him, you know, and say, you know, we need to take a look at this, or this isn't working, or this could end— like, end up— this situation could potentially get worse. That's not a nice place to be. Um, that's not a nice position to be in. Um, and, and that sometimes can cause a little bit of, um— I don't know if anxiety is the right word. Um, but certainly a pressure, you know. that, that feeling of, uh, I don't necessarily want to do this. Um, but, and I, I do want to end this on a positive, that just makes the nice moments even better, which is what I've only recently also realized. You have them difficult conversations, but they're not— the nice ones also come, and that's what's good. Professional service. So footballers, they've got ups and downs. Like, then there's everything. Life is— you've got ups and downs. YouTubers and, um, It's just what— it's just what you want to spend your life doing. Like, what, you know, it's not about the end goal. Like I said before, it's not about becoming a really famous YouTuber. It's not about becoming a chartered accountant and being a finance partner or on the board of, you know, it's, uh, it's what you're going to do in the meantime. It's going to— what you're going to be passionate about, excited about, that's what you should be doing.
Al ElliottLeanne, you are a millennial. What advice would you have for Generation Alpha who's about to enter the workforce?
Al ElliottUm, I— it's hard, isn't it, to offer advice to somebody you don't know, and particularly as an older person? But the same, going down the same route in terms of it was my 14-year-old self, I would say first off, know that your career is just going to be one aspect of your identity. It is important to work hard, but remember that that's a choice. Um, I think it's, it's important to know that not everyone will change the world, and really it's about making sure whether you're willing to put in that hard work to change the world, or if actually you just want to do what you need to do to craft the world that you want. And I think pursuing your passions and giving your best effort will, of course, pay off in so many ways, and in ways you can't even imagine. It's almost impossible to predict what life is going to throw at you. I think choose your relationships wisely. I remember what you said, Al, about the 5 people you spend the most time with are those that shape who you are the most. I spent too long surrounding myself with people that I shouldn't have. So yeah, if you can surround yourself with individuals who inspire you, who challenge you, who aren't toxic— you don't have to put up with toxic relationships, even in a work-based scenario. They will not serve you in the long run, no matter what you think. And these friends that will become your people, your tribe, they will be your allies in your personal life. in your professional life, in your career. Invest in those connections. And as I said, don't hesitate to distance yourself from that negativity. And I know this is a really hard one, but try not to worry too much about what other people think of you. Honestly, honestly, their opinions are much more about them than they are about you. Anything that somebody says, 9 times out of 10, is about them and not you. Also, and again, I promise this to be true, know the things that you're bullied for now The quirks, the interests, the unique traits will be the very things that set you apart and will be celebrated in your future. Embrace those aspects of yourself. They make you exceptional, including the optimistic, fresh thinking that older people may label as delusional or entitled when you join the workforce. Learn to communicate effectively, and that doesn't mean just speaking well. It means listening. Being a good listener is just as important as expressing your thoughts clearly, and it's a skill that will serve you in every aspect of your life, including your career. Try and learn to embrace change and uncertainty. It is a fact of life and one that is just, just getting more frequent. It is unsettling. Also know, though, that nothing is wasted. Every experience that you find yourself in, whether it was planned or intentional or not, will be useful in the future. As long as you stay positive and mindful of how you're learning and how you can use those experiences. Al and I talk about it all the time. We started a little podcast 5 years ago just to document our travel experiences. We never imagined that the things we learnt then we'd apply as part of our professional life every day. And finally, from one old person to a young person, wear sunscreen. It's a simple fact that will protect you, not only your health, but your skin and how old you look. Um, Baz Luhrmann wasn't wrong when he said that. If you ignore everything else I've just said, trust me on the sunscreen.
Al ElliottIf you are wondering who the hell Baz Luhrmann is, then, and you're a Gen Alpha, then it's probably something which maybe your parents or even, God help me, your grandparents would have known. It's a song from the '90s. Definitely look it up. It is a brilliant song full of great advice that has stood the test of time. I really can't add anything to that. I think the only thing I'd say is maybe The job that you're probably likely to do in 20 years' time hasn't been invented yet. So just like Leanne says, try everything, be resilient towards problems and towards toxic situations. But bear in mind that sort of that whole like Nietzsche thing of what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, that's kind of true. So just, you know, all those bad experiences will actually come back and make you stronger, and you'll feel a much better person for it.
Al ElliottAnd try not to take it all so seriously, you know. It is, it is. Of course it's serious. It's how you're going to make money and how you're going to build your own lifestyle and all that stuff. Um, but there's an infinite number of routes to do it. Um, have some fun along the way. It's, you know, youth is wasted on the young, probably because there's older people like us telling you that you need to grow up.
Al ElliottDon't. Don't grow up. Never grow up. So this is what we've learned so far from this episode. First up, and this really surprised me, both our guests, despite being generations apart, said exactly the same thing about hands-on experience. Jeremy told us his fancy law degree didn't prepare him for real work at all, and Annabel was really passionate about getting stuck in and learning on the job.
Al ElliottThe second big takeaway was interesting too. While burnout and mental health challenges have always been there, the way we talk about them has completely changed. Jeremy saw plenty of burnout in law, but it was rarely discussed, while Annabel's generation is totally open, open to it. She's even reading books about mental health and encouraging her colleagues to do the same.
Al ElliottHere's something that challenges what we see on social media. All that talk about Gen Z being the only ones who care about purpose, but it turns out that's not quite right. As we heard, Jeremy found his meaning in seeing how his work affected real people's lives, while Annabel gets her satisfaction from helping businesses make better decisions. Different approaches, same search for meaning.
Al ElliottFourth big learning, professional services. Has come a long way with diversity and inclusion. Jeremy mentioned how his old firm now uses blind CVs to prevent bias, and I loved how Annabelle put it. She said, your gender and age are irrelevant now, it's all about what you can do. And the only thing I'd add to that, should you find yourself in a position where you are experiencing that bias, that is your mantra. Your mantra: my gender and age are irrelevant, it's all about what you can do now.
Al ElliottBravo. And finally, and this one really got me, both generations seem to have figured out something really important about careers. Annabel, who you'd expect to be really focused on climbing the ladder, actually said we should stop obsessing about the end goal and enjoy the journey. And Gerry pointed out how it's now perfectly okay not to have your whole career mapped out, which is a massive change from when I started working.
Al ElliottIt really shows that perhaps these generations aren't as different as we might think.
Al ElliottSo there you have it. If you want to have your say, jump over to LinkedIn and follow Leanne. She'll be posting about this very, very shortly.
Al ElliottAnd if you want to find out more about Annabel and MAP, who approach the workplace in a very unique way, then go to wearemap.co.uk and also listen to episode 127 with Paul, the founder, and Amanda, the operations director.
Al ElliottAnd if you want to hear more from Jeremy, then go to his website changeworklife.com, where you can find loads of great articles, a lot more about Jeremy, but also his amazing podcast called The Same Thing, and you should definitely check out that because he's got some great guests.
Al ElliottThe podcast isn't called The Same Thing, it's called Change Work Life, which is the same thing as his website.
Al ElliottSorry, yes, the podcast isn't called The Same Thing, it's called Change Work Life. Yeah, sorry, that wasn't very clear, but it did, Jeremy, give us an opportunity to say your podcast name about 5 times. So definitely go and check out— check that out. There's a couple of great guests from about 4 months ago, they were called Al and Leanne. A great episode, that, one of my favorites.
Al ElliottThat is all for today. A big Thank you to Annabelle and Jeremy for sharing their generational viewpoints so openly. And my biggest takeaway is that actually, perhaps we're not that different after all. We all want meaningful work, purposeful relationships, and a work-life balance. A quick reminder, if you like to hear stories of how organizations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then every Thursday we bring you an amazing guest with a story just And if you like to keep up to date with the latest news, uh, then tune in next Tuesday.
Al ElliottWe will bring you more of our weekly news roundup, our brand new segment called Hot Takes with our workplace experts, and of course our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne.
Al ElliottAnd if you enjoyed that, here's what you're going to do for me if you fancy it. One, you're going to follow us, subscribe on whatever app you're listening or watching on. Then you're going to go over to LinkedIn, you're going to follow Truth, Lies and Work, me, maybe Al though, he's a bit Grumpy. Definitely follow Annabel and Jeremy and say, do you know what, guys, just listened to your interview, thought it was pretty great, want to have a cup of tea?
Al ElliottYes, definitely go and do that.
Al ElliottBuild some community.
Al ElliottAny other business, Leanne?
Al ElliottUh, no.
Al ElliottGoodbye then.
Al ElliottBye. Bye-bye. Bye.
Al ElliottStories. We'll be back shortly. Do that again.
Al ElliottWe'll be back shortly was really cringe.
Al ElliottYeah, I know.
Al ElliottIt was like, we'll be back after this quick break, guys.
Al ElliottBut wait, there's more. Outline, it'll drop down all the, um—
Al ElliottOh, I see.
Al ElliottYou got it. God, it's like teaching a fucking grandmother to send an email, isn't it? If you are to believe social media, then you're going to say things In work, an Annibal—
Al ElliottAnnibal— Annibal—
Al ElliottAnnibal actor. Now, I'm Gen-X, and back when I started work back in 1743, um, I don't know why I did that.
Al ElliottSparkle Show, a YouTube show aimed at children, surveyed— surveyed. Whilst that might get the Gen-X's and boomers chook, chook.
Al ElliottYou're almost there. Nearly had it.
Al ElliottCan you cobble that together or should I do it again?
Al ElliottI think whilst