Episode 32 · 29 March 2023 · 1:12:58
Why Understanding Women's Health is Vital for Male Leaders
Why Understanding Women's Health is Vital for Male Leaders
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Why are we still having this conversation?
The male bias in medical education and research
Women's health through the pandemic
The cost of childcare and the emotional load
"Having it all" — what does that even mean?
Understanding perimenopause and menopause
Why perimenopause hits at the peak of women's careers
Burnout — are women's experiences really that different?
Creativity, play, and shrinking to fit in
The darker side — when women aren't supported by women
Generational differences in workplace relationships
other#generational-differences#workplace-relationships#gen-z
Being the only woman in the room
Practical advice for male leaders
How Dr. Kellie works with women on physical health and hormones
What employers can do to support women's health
Burnout prevention — where to start
Final advice and takeaways
Show notes
Why Male Leaders Need to Understand Women's Health
Episode 32 — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) close out Women's History Month with a special panel episode featuring three experts from across the globe: Dr. Claire Ashley (portfolio career GP, UK), Hannah Austin (CEO of SheShatter, USA), and Dr. Kellie Pritchard-Peschek (sports scientist and perimenopause specialist, Australia).
Together, they tackle the questions male leaders have always wanted to ask but were afraid to bring up — from menstruation, pregnancy, and perimenopause to burnout, the emotional load, and why women's health is fundamentally a workplace issue. This is an open, honest, and practical conversation designed to help male leaders become better informed and more empathetic allies to the women they work with.
Why This Episode Matters
As male leaders, certain topics can feel difficult to raise — especially sensitive ones like women's health. But avoiding the conversation doesn't make the issues disappear; it just leaves women unsupported and leaders uninformed.
This episode is dedicated to answering the questions you've always wanted to ask but were afraid to bring up. Our panel brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to demystify the subject — from the science of perimenopause to the societal pressures that shape women's experiences at work.
The goal? To bridge the gap in understanding and create a more inclusive, supportive work environment for everyone.
Key Themes
The data problem. 80% of scientific trials are conducted on men and male bodies. Medical education is biased towards the male perspective. If we're making decisions about women's health based on male data, we're making decisions in the dark.
Perimenopause is a workplace issue. Typically starting in a woman's mid-40s — often at the peak of her career — perimenopause brings 50+ known symptoms, from brain fog and sleep disruption to anxiety and heart palpitations. Yet most workplaces have no policy, no awareness, and no conversation.
The emotional load is real. Childcare costs, mental load, career penalties for motherhood, and the fear of speaking up when things get hard — women carry additional strains that aren't visible on a job description.
Burnout looks different (and the same). Women tend to take on more, feel pressure to prove they can handle it, and fear being seen as unable to cope. The symptoms may be universal, but the triggers and the judgment are gendered.
"Having it all" is a myth. As Hannah puts it: "Having it all is knowing yourself and putting yourself first." It's not about having everything — it's about knowing what matters.
Resources from the Episode
Dr. Kellie Pritchard-Peschek Offers 1-2-1 coaching and treatment programs supporting women with burnout and perimenopause.
- Website: drkellierose.com
- Instagram: @drkellierose
- LinkedIn: @kelliepritchard
- Facebook: Dr Kellie Rose
Dr. Claire Ashley — The Burnout Doctor Offers various free and paid-for services for both individuals and businesses.
- Website: drclaireashley.com — including her blog
- Connect via Instagram, YouTube, TikTok and LinkedIn
Hannah Austin — SheShatter Bestselling author of Hello, Head, Meet Heart (available on Amazon). Offers organizational wellness workshops, talks, and private 1:1 coaching for busy (and burnt-out) professionals.
- Website: sheshatters.com
- Podcast: She Burns — Season 3 is themed 'Women Game Changers'
Additional Resources Mentioned:
- The Primary Care Women's Health Forum: pcwhf.co.uk
- The Women's Resource Centre (WRC): wrc.org.uk/values-vision-mission
- Big Ideas for Women and Girls Coalition: bigideascoalition.org
- Acas — sexual harassment support: acas.org.uk/sexual-harassment/get-help-and-support
- Victim Support UK — sexual harassment helpline: victimsupport.org.uk · 08 08 16 89 111
- Samaritans: 116 123
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. But I think disproportionately women are affected by that, and that kind of makes us feel like we're torn between those responsibilities and our work as well. Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work. Welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by HubSpot, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Al, and I'm a business owner. Oh, and Leanne's not here. This is a very special episode. It's kind of like a sibling episode to the one we did back in January with Jim Young about the untold heartbreak of male leaders. This is all about women. And as a male, and as having been a male boss in the past, I don't really know what it is I can ask, what I can't ask. I didn't really know much about this. Now, obviously, I work with Leanne, so I do have an idea of the kind of struggles that women go through at work. But as a leader, male leader, what do you— what can you say? What can you not say? What can you ask about? What can you not ask about? These are all really, really important questions. And I'll be honest, I think most males are like me, go, I don't really know what I'm allowed to say. And there's that meme from Parks and Recreation where Andy says, at this point, I'm too afraid to ask. And I think that does, does kind of relate to us as male leaders. So in this episode, we're gonna learn a lot more about women's health. We're gonna learn what kind of questions we can ask and what we can't ask. She's gonna talk about the gender health gap. I'll be honest, I didn't really know what that was. Leanne started talking about it a few months ago, but I still am not 100% sure. So I'll be listening to this. And then there's the curious idea that crash test dummies have always been male up until a couple of months ago. All of this, I hope, is going to give you, if you're a male leader, gonna give you the context required to understand better women's health in the workplace, and also perhaps to understand what questions we can and can't ask. Things like menopause. Is it appropriate to mention it? Is it appropriate to bring it up? What should we be aware of? And what questions should we be asking around that? We also touch a little bit on Gen Z, perimenopause, and Leanne's got a load of amazing resources in the show notes. So look underneath this episode and you'll see a link to the webpage with all those amazing resources. So let's go meet Leanne as she talks to 3 incredible women.
Leanne ElliottWe're wrapping up Women's History Month with a very special panel episode exploring women's health. We're here to ask and answer the questions that male leaders, let's be honest, female leaders, or however you identify, leaders may be afraid to ask. So yeah, we'll be talking about menopause, burnout, harassment in the workplace, generational shifts, and that often debated question, as women, can we have it all? We have scoured the globe for you to find some of the most relevant and high-profile voices in women's health today, and I'm very excited to introduce our 3 guests. Our first guest is Dr. Clare Ashley. She is a GP and burnout specialist from Bristol in the UK. Alongside her clinical and personal experience, Clare has a degree in neuroscience, uniquely placing her as a mental health expert and advocate. Clare is also an NHS clinical entrepreneur, which she'll tell us a little bit more about. Let's meet Clare.
Al ElliottSo I'm Dr. Claire Ashley. I'm a portfolio career GP. Basically what that means is I don't work for a surgery. I have lots of little jobs, lots of different roles. I've created a portfolio career having gone through a nasty episode of burnout that started back in 2019, and following that, I've made being a mental well-being advocate and talking about my experiences has really become my mission, because when I went through my burnout, it was an incredibly lonely and isolating experience.
Leanne ElliottOur next panelist is Hannah Austin from Portland, Oregon, in the USA, Hannah is bestselling author of Hello Head, Meet Heart. She's also the CEO and founder of She Shatters, which offers consulting services on the topic of burnout prevention in the workplace. Following a 20-year high-flying career in corporate, since 2021, Hannah has dedicated herself to teaching others how to burn bright and not burn out. Hannah is also the founder and co-host of She Burns podcast. Here's Hannah.
Al ElliottMy name's Hannah Austin. I'm the CEO and founder of She Shatters, and we are a coaching and consulting company designed to elevate people who are suffering from burnout. And I recently wrote a book, Hello Head, Meet Heart. So I've been traveling around the country doing speaking engagements promoting the book.
Leanne ElliottOur final guest panelist is Dr. Kelly Pritchard-Pesek, who joins us from Brisbane in Australia. Dr. Kelly has extensive experience in the sporting and allied health industry. She actually spent over a decade supporting Olympic athletes and world record holders in Australia and Europe, before going on to leading projects in sporting communities in sub-Saharan Africa and a community of researchers for a Swiss digital health startup company. In 2021, she founded Dr. Kelly Rose, an executive health coaching business enabling professional women to recognize the signs of burnout and empower them with the knowledge and skills to prevent it and rebalance their health. Let's meet Dr. Kelly.
Al ElliottMy name is Dr. Kelly. I am a sports scientist by trade, so I did a bachelor and a doctorate degree in exercise science majoring in physiology. And the first half of my career I spent actually working in elite sport with Olympic athletes. So that was about over a decade through 3 Olympic Games cycles where I really sort of immersed myself in that high-performance culture, working with the top athletes, really getting them into the peak health and fitness for that peak level of performance, essentially.
Leanne ElliottKelly joining us from her clinic in Brisbane there. I do apologize for some of the background noise you will hear on Kelly's interview. She did ask me before we started recording if I could hear anything, and while I couldn't, I think our mics have picked up some of that, but it all adds to the atmosphere. So yeah, 3 phenomenal and highly successful women with a real passion for empowering women, for uplifting women, for women's health, Um, and women in the workplace. Interestingly, this isn't the only thing that they have in common, and you may have already gathered this. Dr. Clare, Hannah, and Dr. Kelly have all experienced and recovered from burnout. Throw me into that mix. I've experienced burnout as well. Then you've got 2 medical doctors, a psychologist, and a corporate leadership superstar. They've all experienced burnout. If that doesn't show you that really burnout affects anyone and everyone, um, I don't know what will. But yeah, you are, you are not alone if you have or are currently experiencing burnout. So today we will be talking about women's mental health and experience of burnout, in addition to physical health experiences such as menopause. We're also going to be touching on societal challenges as well, including experiences of sexual harassment in the workplace. So this may not be the easiest conversation to listen We will, however, be sharing expert advice and practical tips along the way, and some excellent organizations that support women's physical and mental health. All details for those support services are in the show notes, so if you'd rather head straight there, please feel free. So how this, how this basically worked, I had conversations with these 3 incredible women and asked them lots of, lots of different questions. I then asked Al to review these questions and see if he could have picked for me the ones that he felt Male leaders would want to ask, or perhaps be afraid of asking. So with that in mind, these are shortened interviews from our 3 incredible panelists. So Women Has Been Women's History Month. You may be listening regardless of how you identify and think, why, why do women need a history month? Men don't have a history month. Why are we still talking about women needing to create spaces for themselves? Or, you know, surely there's enough corporate opportunities for women now. So let's address the elephant in the room. Why do we still need Women's History Month in 2023? Here's Hannah.
Al ElliottWell, first of all, anyone saying that, I would say, why are we still having this discussion? It's 2023. Why are we still having this discussion? And the reality is our society and world hasn't learned how yet. And Jim Young, who you've also had on the podcast, he and I have had this discussion. What can men do? What can everybody do to help Every generation, every race. I mean, it's not just women, it's race too, right? We have discrimination all around the world, trans people as well. So it's figuring out how we can have deeper empathy, how we can have the conversations too for men to elevate women. It's not just enough to post on LinkedIn, Women's History Month, here's my wife, she's such a great wife, she does everything. That's not helping. What's helping is How can we have discussions around what women provide and how they're different and build systems, systemic systems around us, certainly pay us, right, what we're worth? But I think ultimately we have to learn the hows. And that's what I wanted to do in the book. Like so many health, self-help books, Leanne, they don't help you. At the end of the book, you're like, that's great, but how do I put that into practice into my life? They don't question you. They don't challenge you. And I think that that's what we need to continue to do. Question and challenge job descriptions, question and challenge pay scales, question and challenge men and other genders who are saying, why do we have Women's History Month?
Leanne ElliottBeautifully put there, Hannah. And Hannah mentions there, in terms of, of the, the gender pay gap, which we talked about recently on the, on the podcast, you're probably familiar with that, but what other inequities do women experience? Well, one of the most pressing and prevailing issues at the moment is health. And specifically the gender health gap. So the gender health gap describes institutionalized sexism within healthcare and the poor service and outcomes women get as a result. The UK, sadly, is thought to have the largest female health gap among G20 countries and the 12th largest globally. There are millions and millions of women falling through the, the gender health gap every year. There are a number of reasons reasons for this, including medical education, as Dr. Clare explains.
Al ElliottI think when it comes to medical education, we, you know, we're very biased towards the male perspective. I think traditionally, if you look at how scientific studies are conducted, largely, I think off the top of my head, it's about 80% of scientific trials are conducted on men and male bodies. Women are really largely excluded from the scientific process. And of course, when it comes to practicing medicine, We have to be evidence-based. But if we're basing our practice off of, of, you know, trials that have been done purely on men and male bodies, then we're missing data, um, to do with, I hope, half, you know, half the population.
Leanne ElliottIt's almost unbelievable that, that 80% of scientific trials are conducted on men and male bodies, and that, that science is then used to make decisions about how illnesses should be treated. Um, when women are 50% of the population, there isn't that, that same insight. It's almost unbelievable. And, and Kelly agrees. She recalls her own observations in the world of both health and elite sport.
Al ElliottIf I look at, um, even my time as a physiologist in sport, um, the statistic currently is that I think it's between 6 and 8% of all scientific research in sport is done on women, female athletes. So there's a, there's a gap. So every bit of research and knowledge that we to apply in sport is based on men, yet we work with so many female athletes as well. So there's definitely, definitely a gap there. When we look even at, from a health and chronic disease perspective, so going more down the medical path, there is a difference. Like, they don't know too much about, like, symptoms for women, and particularly around things like cardiovascular disease and, and heart attack risks. And they're 2 key ones that I've read also statistics on. And not knowing those signs and symptoms, um, in women in particular, how they manifest a little bit differently, um, women are being sent away from healthcare, uh, from hospitals, from practitioners. Um, so it's, it's still happening. And, you know, I, I still hear something that sort of was funny, but really also hurt me to listen to the other day is that, you know, it's a health risk to be a woman. That was essentially what this physician was talking about, just for what we face in this health gap, the research gap behind it. And then when we get into the nitty-gritty of how our hormones actually impact some of these disease risks as well, increasing the risk. So it places a bit of importance on, you know, taking care of ourselves as women.
Leanne ElliottAs Dr. Kelly says, this is, you know, why women still need to push for change. And I spoke at length with Dr. Kelly and Dr. Clare about this, and Dr. Clare was actually telling me about Some scientists in Sweden that have now produced the world's first female crash test dummy. So, you know those dummies that you put in cars, you simulate crashes to see how the seatbelt impacts the body, how the airbag impacts the body. Up until 2022, all of those dummies were based on male anatomy, and it took until now to get these test dummies brought in that are based on female anatomy. Unsurprisingly, this is going to really change how future cars, driver seats, and other safety features are designed and ultimately will make roads safer for female drivers. So yeah, between the science and the actual health gaps, there is a real health risk, as Dr. Kelly says, to being a woman. The impact has also had a huge impact on all of us, and yet for women, it has seemed to create a new gap. Some women have reported huge benefits for their career and work-life balance that they the flexibility they've gained from working from home is huge, while others have reported, you know, real increases in stress, and, and particularly resulting from those challenges of balancing work and home life. Dr. Clare was on the front line as a GP during the pandemic in the UK working for the NHS, and, and she explains a little bit more for us on the impact it had on women.
Al ElliottI would say during the pandemic, I Barely saw any women presenting with physical health problems unless, of course, it was an acute situation, you know, something that had to be dealt with immediately. But we saw an awful lot of mental health problems, and the amount of suffering that was happening behind closed doors during the pandemic was huge. Huge explosion in anxiety in particular, and depression, I would say. And also mental health problems in children, interestingly. So I would say my average age of referral referral for children, because of course women are likely to be looking after their children during the pandemic as well, isn't it? Not, you know, obviously their husbands or partners might be involved, but, you know, I would say no, like during normal times I would have been referring teenagers, for instance, for mental health support. The average age at which I was referring children dropped to probably like 8 or 9, which is in addition to teenagers, which is a really significant change. And so you've You know, this perfect storm of women at home. For some people, obviously, it was a great thing for their careers and their work and their family life, but for some people it really wasn't. And I think it probably polarized people quite significantly. The people that found it good found it really good. The people that found it a struggle found it really, really hard. The pandemic has been a massive perfect storm for mental health problems, I would say. Less so physical health problems, although we are now seeing Now that we're coming out of the pandemic and people have more access to GPs, um, more, you know, when we are seeing more people face to face, we are seeing much more physical health problems.
Leanne ElliottYou might be thinking we were all impacted by the pandemic, it wasn't just women, and I, and I hear you, but there is a growing body of research that has highlighted the disproportionately negative impact COVID-19 had on women globally. And one of those, as Dr. Clare alludes to, is this, um, this lack of access to to care. And, you know, the pausing of elective care at the start of, of the pandemic resulted in the greatest backlog in NHS history, and there are still 6.1 million people on the waiting list as of March 2022. Um, and sadly, you know, 24,000 of those are reported to have been waiting at least 2 years. For women not being able to, to access this reproductive healthcare has meant that we have seen significant increases in, in stillbirths, in maternal death, in maternal depression. Um, you know, there's actually a study that I was reading, um, from Social Politics, uh, International Studies, and Gender, State, and Society. This is from the back end of 2022, and it was even just the, the headline, um, really summed up for me. Now, the headline was a quote from one of the participants that said, I was facilitating everybody else's life and mine had just ground to a halt. So I had— I asked Dr. Clare for her thoughts on this. She went on to share her very personal story of burnout.
Al ElliottI think that women also carry a lot of additional strains on them, not just physical health problems, but also kind of— we know that women generally take on more of the emotional labor of the household, do more domestic chores, do more childcare, and all that sort of stuff. And I think that we, we tend to juggle a lot And I'm not just— I'm not saying that, you know, that this is all women's experience or all families' experience, but I think disproportionately women are affected by that. And that kind of makes us feel like we're torn between those responsibilities and our work as well. And certainly I think that some of those factors affected my own burnout. So if you're happy, I'll just kind of briefly touch on that to begin with. So when I burnt out, I was working a job that required me to be in work for 12 hours a day. I have a partner that works away often with very short notice, and, and it's all very unpredictable, so we don't have a schedule. Um, and at the time that I burnt out, I, I had one child in reception and one in nursery, so very, very young and still very dependent on me. And I didn't have family locally to me to, to support me. We had kind of this this, this problem where I, I didn't have local support. I didn't have a village. You know, we've lost a lot, you know, with our nuclear families and how we live and work now. We've lost a lot of that, I think, uh, for mums. With my partner being away, obviously it meant that the childcare fell to me largely, and my work just didn't— the way I was working and I was expected to work just, it wasn't compatible with the childcare arrangements that I had. So we have an issue with lack of flexibility when it comes to childcare. So my kids were in nursery or breakfast club and after-school club from kind of 7:30 to 6-ish, but I wouldn't finish work until say 8 or 8:30. And that meant I had to then employ a nanny to come and pick my kids up from school and from nursery and to put them to bed for me, which, A, made me feel absolutely horrendous, but also secondly was ruinously expensive. So we do have a problem in the UK, I think, with not just lack of flexible childcare, but lack of, um, reasonably priced childcare as well.
Leanne ElliottBefore we dive more into burnout, Dr. Clare raises a really important issue here— the cost of childcare. So this is a problem in the UK, and my understanding is it's, it's a problem in the US as well. Childcare costs are ridiculously high. The average annual cost of full-time nursery for a child under 2 in the UK is now almost £15,000. £15,000 a year. That's gone up by 5.9% in the last 12 months alone. In the US, I was reading that it can cost somewhere between $5,000 for school-age home-based care and up to $15,500 if we're looking at infant centre-based care. So it really does raise challenging questions for co-parents.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd let's be honest, almost impossible choices for single parents. So let's hear more from, from Claire's experience as a working mother.
Al ElliottI'm a higher earner, and it was still the majority of my monthly salary was being spent on childcare. And for some women, that's not even an option. You know, they might not even be able to stay in the workplace because childcare is so expensive. It was much more than our mortgage. And without a shadow of a doubt, that additional stress, you know, not feeling like I was doing a good job at work, but also feeling like I was failing my children and not being a good enough mother, absolutely factored into my burnout. And I think that a lot of the issues that women face now in society— but actually, the issues are very much the same issues as I was experiencing back then.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBut they absolutely factor into that emotional load, that additional stress. You know, we've got childcare that is very, very expensive, very inflexible. Women do take on disproportionately more of the emotional and domestic labor in the household. So you go and do a full day at work, you spend most of your salary on childcare, and then you come home and do all the rest of it, you know, all the washing, the cleaning, and all that sort of stuff. Obviously, this is a huge generalization, but this is what the data tells us. And so you take— you feel like you're spinning multiple plates at the same time or juggling multiple balls, and at some point you're going to drop some.
Leanne ElliottDr. Clare went on to explain that as a woman, saying you're finding things hard can attract a lot of backlash. You know, comments about women's working rights and balancing family will attract comments like, well, you chose to have children. So how do we internalize that as women? Some of us stop talking about it, don't complain. Others conclude that finding it hard means failure, especially women with children. So, you know, what do I do? Just keep pushing myself? I also think as well as a huge internalised pressure. Um, you know, as an older millennial, I grew up in a world where I was told women can have it all. And now that I'm in my late 30s, I have a career that I love. I have a marriage that I'm both very happy in and very proud of. I don't have children.
Al ElliottMy choice.
Leanne ElliottI've never felt that maternal drive. But by definition, no, I don't have it all. But can others? Is this a truth or is it a lie? Can women have it all? Here's Hannah.
Al ElliottI think having it all is knowing yourself and putting yourself first. And I always thought that was the most selfish thing. I can't even believe it's coming out of my mouth now. It means I'm doing my therapy. But I mean, I think having it all to me was all extrinsic things, Leanne. It was the house, it was the car, it was the You know, title. It was all the extrinsic things that I thought was going to make me happy. And when you have all that and you're still not happy, it's not happy with looking yourself in the mirror. So for me, I had to really dig deep and say, without all these things, who am I, right? When I'm looking myself in the mirror in the bathroom in the morning, if I don't have a job, if I don't have a title, what— who is Hannah? And I had to dig. I'm still digging, right? Even after 2 and a half years of doing a lot of self- discovery and self-awareness is, you know, those patterns of behavior are ingrained in you for 40, 50 years. And I think that's why people have midlife crises at 40. I mean, I think there's a reason why, is because we can only lie to ourselves and buy that societal dream for so long before your inner voice finally says, stop believing this. What you should really believe is who you truly are. And that's when kind of the, you know, sports car, you buy a sports car, you quit your job, or you kind of as a woman say you're having a menopausal moment, but really it's just a redefining of who you really are, a moment in life where you're finally clear.
Leanne ElliottHannah brings us nicely on to our next topic of conversation, menopause. We've seen it in the movies, right? Does anyone remember Samantha Jones stripping off in the Sex and the City movie in that busy supermarket in Abu Dhabi? And there are so many stand-up routines One of my favorite actually is Sandra Sharmas. She talks about perimenopause and the exciting 10 years before menopause actually kicks in. So worth looking at. So yeah, let's go there. Let's ask the questions we're all afraid to ask. And women too, I'll be honest. I'm a 38-year-old woman. I am staring down the barrel of menopause. So let's educate ourselves. Let's educate our husbands. Let's educate our bosses.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottDr. Kelly is an expert in helping women navigate perimenopause, and she'll be guiding us through this topic. Let's start at the beginning. What is perimenopause and menopause? Here's Dr. Kelly.
Al ElliottIt's sort of a tricky one because it's different for every woman, uh, so it's sort of an unknown entity. But what, uh, what we do know about perimenopause— so perimenopause is the first starting point of the hormonal changes that happen. So we go from our reproductive years where we have menstrual cycles, um, perhaps go through pregnancies, and then once we hit this age, that nice rhythmic menstrual cycle hormonal fluctuation, um, starts to get a bit disrupted. So it's not that nice cyclical monthly, um, pattern anymore. And so The main drivers there, if we— everyone's heard of estrogen and progesterone. So they start to sort of go out of whack, out of sync, and decline over time. So that's sort of from a hormonal perspective what's happening. Those levels will drop down eventually to a very low sort of baseline level. So in this phase of perimenopause, it can last Anywhere from about 2 to 8 or 10 years, so it's quite a period of time. The median length is 4 years, quite often it lasts for about 7. And so essentially in this time, this is where we go through all of the symptoms that we talk about and we hear about the hot flushes, the brain fog, we can— our body position can change, uh, the mood swings and the emotional outbursts, those types of things. This is where it happens. It's actually in perimenopause. So we go through this for a number of years, and then at the point of menopause, this is actually— you could almost put it down to a single day. So it's what we call the 12-month anniversary of your last period. So for menopause, menopause technically to occur, you have to have no, uh, menses for 12 months. So once you've hit menopause, then everything after that for the remainder of our lifespan, we're in what's called post-menopause. And so this is where our hormones have now sort of calmed down, uh, and they're at that baseline level. So we obviously don't have a period anymore, um, but we can still be a little bit symptomatic, uh, just because we don't have those hormones.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliotthormones, um, you know, in our systems anymore. So, so yeah, perimenopause is actually what everybody sort of colloquially talks about as menopause, um, and it's that symptomatic stage. Um, and as I said, it can be different for many people. Um, every woman will probably have a different experience, different symptoms, different intensity of symptoms, um, different types. So there's over 50 known symptoms, uh, of perimenopause. So it can be quite, um, quite fluctuating and different.
Leanne ElliottDr. Kelly explained to me that typically perimenopause starts around mid-40s, but it can start as early as 37, and this is called early onset perimenopause.
Al ElliottSo again, as a 38-year-old woman, I had to ask, is there something in particular that triggers early onset Things like, um, in our lifestyle, so things like smoking and passive smoking, um, that can cause an earlier onset. Um, work-related job stress as well, so that can be correlated with, um, an earlier onset and some of the, um, the symptoms of perimenopause. Uh, the other one is night shift work, so For people who work jobs that require chronic sort of night shift as part of their work, that can be a trigger for earlier onset. And then we come to other factors like race and BMI. So even like how our physiology is from a BMI perspective. So that can have an impact on the onset of many—
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al Elliottperimenopause. Um, and so an earlier onset typically happens for, um, Asian, Hispanic, and, uh, Black women. Um, and then there can be a little bit of a difference in the length of that as well. So yeah, a few factors that, that can impact.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— And the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes— the HubSpot Podcast Network. Destination or business professionals. Seamless.
Leanne ElliottSeamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back. Yeah, come back.
Al ElliottDefinitely come back. 'Cause Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.
Leanne ElliottI'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in.
Leanne ElliottI was also keen to understand from Dr. Kelly the typical symptoms. She mentioned there are, you know, 50 known symptoms beyond the ones that we've all heard of, the hot flashes, the mood swings, and, you know, the cognitive challenges as well, the brain fog. My concern was that, you know, if menopause causes significant changes in our hormones, And we know that hormones such as estrogen, testosterone all have important roles in women's health and emotions. If we're experiencing this hormone deregulation, that's going to impact our, our brain chemistry and our mental health. So how can we tell the difference between symptoms of menopause and symptoms of mental health? Can we?
Al ElliottWell, actually, when we're looking at the symptomology associated with perimenopause. Um, the big groupings are sort of the, the physical symptoms, the urogenital, the neurological with like the, the brain fog and the concentration, um, the vasomotor, so where we get the hot flashes, and the psychological. And definitely some of the key symptoms in that psychology, um, the psychological symptoms box is depression, anxiety, um, the mood swings, and, you know, coming from that perceived stress. So, um, that actually— yeah, it is actually a symptom of, um, of perimenopause.
Leanne ElliottSpeaking to Dr. Kelly, it also really struck me that perimenopause seems to happen at an age where we're more than likely going to be in senior leadership roles or at kind of the peaks of our career or making career transitions. So how does this experience of, of perimenopause and menopause impact our working life, our careers, and the sustainability of our work?
Al ElliottThis is kind of where, um, I guess where a lot of my work sits. So when I'm working with senior female leaders, uh, they tend to be, um, you know, in those senior ranks. They're in their 40s to early 50s. Climbing the ladder and at the same time sitting alongside that, they're going into perimenopause or some of the symptoms are sort of coming on. And really like this, a lot of women don't know that some of the symptoms that they're feeling or some of the health symptoms that they're feeling are from perimenopause. And so a lot of what I do is that clarity from chaos and trying to tease out, okay, Yeah. What's happening in sort of the physical and the burnout space? What are the menopause symptoms that might be showing up through some screening for both to try and figure out, like stratify and profile, like where women are sitting? And so, yeah, it's really these convergence of 2 factors that can happen. And so where there's added work stress, it sort of sits at the base of those and it can drive the the burnout. Um, obviously we know, we know that. And then it can also worsen sort of that, um, that perimenopause, uh, symptomology. Um, and so the other thing is that the symptomology sort of does cross over, um, to a degree physically as well.
Leanne ElliottWe talked a lot about this in our burnout episodes. If you haven't listened to them, I do encourage you to go back. Um, just about how burnout has so many physical symptoms that, that we might not associate with burnout and we can overlook. And, and yeah, you know, as Kelly explained there, there was also then this crossover in symptoms between burnout and perimenopause. She was telling me that both in terms of the literature and in her experience supporting women, burnout and perimenopause are very similar in terms of a number of symptoms. She mentioned declines in cognitive functioning, short-term memory loss, brain fog, a poor ability to concentrate, low mood, anxiety, emotional deregulation, insomnia, pervading fatigue, low energy, poor recovery, weight gain. The list goes on. And this is why Dr. Kelly works to profile both perimenopause and burnout to tease out the symptoms and understand what is attributed to what, and then use that information to figure out a holistic and impactful treatment plan. Dr. Clare is also an expert in burnout. In fact, she's known as the burnout doctor. So given what I'd learned so far about perimenopause, I wanted to understand a bit more about burnout in women. And starting with, do men and women experience burnout differently? Here's Clare.
Al ElliottI think with men that they, they generally speaking, find it harder to, to to kind of cope with their emotions and to talk about it. We see this played out in all areas of mental health, actually, not just burnout, and to access help. And actually, I think typically in my clinical experience, what men tend to do is to use maladaptive coping strategies to manage their stress levels and their burnout. So that's things like Hmm. drinking more alcohol, perhaps turning to drugs or other substances, burying their head in the sand, dare I say it. I think men find it harder to recognize and also to cope, really, because men, I don't think, are taught coping mechanisms in perhaps in the same way that women use or are taught coping mechanisms. I don't— I feel like there's this kind of brand of toxic masculinity that doesn't necessarily allow them to experience that. I think there is a wider conversation happening at the moment about men's mental health, and there are strategies and things in place to try to manage that. And I think that generally speaking, there is a bit more of a conversation about it, but I think men still find it very hard to recognize it themselves and also to seek help. I think in my clinical experience, I see slightly more women than men presenting with mental health problems. Burnout, definitely more women than men come forward, but I don't think that necessarily means that they're not experiencing it. as well. Um, I'd say, yeah, I'd say that's, that's the difference that I've noticed.
Leanne ElliottThis episode was designed to act as a sibling episode to an earlier conversation that Al had with Jim Young. Uh, it's The Untold Heartbreak of Male Leaders, and we will leave that— I will leave the, the link in, in the show notes. But where we, we dive into some of the, the points that Dr. Clarice picked up on there in terms of men's experience of burnout. So do go check that Dr. Clare also has a degree in neuroscience, which feeds into her clinical practice and advice around burnout recovery. And I was curious, you know, she mentioned these differences in terms of, of how men and women experience emotions, the different coping mechanisms. Is that a societal factor? Is that how we're socialized? Or do women's and men's brains function differently? Has neuroscience research actually proved that men are from Mars and women are from Venus? Here's Claire.
Al ElliottSo I would say in the literature that I haven't read anything that says that, that kind of talks about how the male and female brain experience stress differently. But it might be that that's because the research hasn't done— hasn't been done or reported. A lot of neuroscience studies are done in animal brains. Um, we have a lot of In terms of the studies that have been done on people, a lot of it is kind of functional MRI scans, and I think there's a good split between the sexes in terms of that work. Uh, so I would say in terms of what I've read, I haven't come across anything that differentiates between the male and the female brain, but that doesn't mean to say that that doesn't exist.
Leanne ElliottSo once again, we're perhaps not quite as different as we think. The symptoms of burnout seem to be the same. Our brains seem to be the same as far as we know. But as we've learned, you know, socially, societally, women face different pressures. So that made me ask, does that mean that women are at higher risk of burnout? Here's Dr. Kelly.
Al ElliottI think sometimes we are wired that way, uh, as women, that we, we do tend to take on a lot, um, and we do tend to just keep going And keep pushing, not ask for help, those types of behaviors. I do see that a fair bit, and I see it particularly play out in the workplace. Coming back to sort of some of those, maybe some of those stigmas, and that, you know, with the inequalities in the workplace, women are having to work harder. to get to the same place. And, well, from what I've seen and also just talking to other executive women, it's— they don't want to be seen as weak either.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottThey don't want to be seen that they can't handle it, they can't handle the pace, they can't handle the workload. And so, there's also this element which I think comes back to what what you were talking about in terms of just driving, just, uh, keep on going, keep on doing, um, and make sure that you can keep up with everything, um, which is obviously not a healthy place to operate from.
Leanne ElliottYes, that sounds familiar. You know, the things that society tells us, or we tell ourselves, you know, we have to fight for the positions we get in work anyway, so don't be weak, don't be a walkover, don't be that person, that woman who cries at work. And that sounds kind of fundamentally opposite to the roles that we're socialised to play at home, to be nurturing, to be caring, to be stoic. Being strong as a woman seems to mean very different things in different environments. Or maybe that's just me. I asked Hannah, do women have to be different people at work and at home to be successful? Hannah shared that having different personalities for, for home and work was something that she had experienced. And it also inspired a chapter in her book, Hello Head, Meet Heart, called Creativity and Play. Here's Hannah.
Al ElliottI had 2 personalities for the 20 years I was in corporate. I had work Hannah, which was very responsible, 2 cell phones, give me a project, I'll tackle it. And then I had home Hannah. And it was only when I went to a retreat with some work people, I think we went to the coast or to my boss's wedding or something like that, and my, my coworker coworkers, my peers saw fun Hannah and they said to me, God, we love fun Hannah. And I was like, so do you not like work Hannah? Like what? You know, and it was an eye-opening moment when they, they really— what someone said to me really jived and hit home. And I thought, gosh, am I 2 different people? Like, who am I showing up as work? Right? And so that's when I wrote Creativity and Play and really kind of talked through, like, I actually used to sneak away or, you know, cancel meetings or postpone meetings so that I could go and build these— sounds silly, but bouquets of flowers at this grocery store. I even was impersonating a person that worked there so I could build it, you know, for someone else. It's kind of a funny story. You have to read the book. But what one of the women, the client, said to me after I built her a bouquet, she's like, you really make— you made something really beautiful. You made something really tiny and beautiful, but it's going to make an impact.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd that was a moment to me that I was like, oh my gosh, I can actually give someone, make someone have a beautiful day doing something that I enjoyed. It's not being responsible. It's not managing 100 staff. It's not putting in a new pathway. It's not discharging a patient from the hospital. Like, I can, I have other talents. I have other skills, but that I have neglected for so long. Because I think as women, we often just have other things for other people, whether it's our husband or or a wife or kids, we don't ever have something just for us. And I— for me, creativity and play is something that's just for you, something that ignites this positivity, this energy. It ignites your true self. And that's my hope in writing Creativity and Play, that women read this and men, and they say, I want something just for me, and they take that class.
Leanne ElliottCreativity and Play is actually my favorite chapter in Hannah's book. And I— and It really resonated with me. I've had times in my life and my career, if I'm being honest, where I have felt like I've needed to be a little less myself to fit in, you know, or to act a little bit stupid or not embarrass the boss, especially when, you know, the solution seems really obvious. Again, just me.
Al ElliottI feel like we lock away, and I feel like that's where we live in this box. this normal, unextraordinary life, right? We live this day-to-day mundane. And I hate to say it, but I feel like as women, often we— I don't want to say dumb ourselves down, but we dim our lights to fit in. And we are so busy putting ourselves in a box that we actually don't realize that we don't need a box, right? We need to be having free space. We need that creativity. And I think that's what's happening in our world. Like, there's not a lot of creativity and flow. Like, It's just so rigorous and so formulated. And so I think get out of your box, you know, start getting color, bring some color into your life and take a class.
Leanne ElliottOf course, there is a darker side to shining less and being, you know, less bright, less noticeable in the workplace, not drawing attention to ourselves. Sexual harassment in the workplace is still a problem for many businesses. As the Equity and Human Rights Commission states, No workplace is immune, and a lack of reported cases does not mean it has not occurred. You don't have to look very hard to find some really shocking statistics. The Trade Unions Congress, for example, reported that 52% of women and 63% of women aged between 18 and 24 reported experiencing sexual harassment at work. 32% said they'd been subjected to unwelcome sexual jokes. 28% had experienced sexual comments regarding their body or attire. 23% had been touched against their consent. 20% had experienced unwanted verbal sexual advances, and 12% had been sexually assaulted. Hannah and I spoke about this, and she bravely shared her own personal experience.
Al ElliottYeah, I mean, especially, you know, in healthcare, there was a lot of women leaders, right? Naturally, a lot of nurses and doctors are female, especially administrators. We had a larger population of women, but a lot of the leaders were men. And so I did experience several opportunities within my 20-year career of bias, discrimination. Lots of people, lots of men would say, oh, no wonder why you're getting so many move-ins, or no wonder why you have so many compliments, or you're so nice to the families, you're nice to look at, things like that.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd, you know, as a young woman, I didn't know that— I know it felt icky to me, but I didn't know what to do about it. And in my first job in Alaska, actually in high school, I was, you know, sexually harassed by one of the older men. And I told my female boss about it and she took care of it right away. And she's actually in my book. Her name's Sharon. She's one of my first bosses I've ever had. And she and I have stayed in touch, as you can see, for 32 years.
Leanne ElliottWow.
Al ElliottFor 20 years later. But I remember feeling like, God, I trusted this woman to tell her what happened to me. And she went to ball for me. And she took care of it. And that guy still worked there. But I can tell you, he never, ever did anything like that to me again. And he was reprimanded for it. And he was held accountable. And that was like a moment to me that it's like, okay, I can trust another woman. There's another woman that's listening to me.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd another woman that's going to deliver exactly what this person needed.
Leanne ElliottIf I'm being honest, I wasn't surprised by Hannah's experience. I've experienced it too. I've experienced patronizing and manipulative treatment, and to things like, oh, come on, sweetheart, you can do this for me, um, you know, to actually being, you know, having that unwanted physical contact. So yeah, it doesn't surprise me that, that Hannah and I and like so many other women have experienced What did surprise me though, sadly, was that Hannah reported it and her manager escalated it. I did ask Hannah about this. I asked her if her manager, her female manager, was ever concerned that it may have— this reporting, this event may have a negative impact on both of them.
Al ElliottI mean, like, years later, we've actually talked about that same situation. She just thanked me for coming forward and She basically put a line in the sand and said, no matter what happens, this is wrong. I mean, I think that's what it takes. It takes a ballsy move. It takes a risk. It takes another woman standing up for another woman to say, this is unacceptable and it's never going to happen again. I think it's the silence that kills a lot of women, young women's dreams. And frankly, if I were to go to another boss and they didn't do anything about it, that's when that kind of erosion happens in your spirit and your soul.
Leanne ElliottThere is a lot of interesting research into generational differences relating to relationships in the workplace, particularly what is and what is not acceptable. Gen Z, for example, they're the first generation to enter the workforce post the MeToo movement, and research is showing that this is having potentially an impact on, on how they interact physically at work. They're not as touchy-feely when it comes to colleagues.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottI was reading a survey from Reflective, and it was actually saying that Gen Zs are much more similar to boomers in their attitude towards this physical contact, flirtation, fraternization. Um, you know, millennials in contrast, um, it was saying that 50% of millennials will go in for hugs, 10% of Gen Xers will go in for a kiss on the cheek. Um, it's a very different relationship we seem to be having in terms of what is, um, and what isn't acceptable physical Uh, connection, um, even when it's not steeped in anything more, more sinister. I mean, we talk a lot about generational differences in psychology in the world of work, and that's because the significant changes that we've experienced over the last 50 years are really having this impact on how different age groups are experiencing the world. You know, the prevalence of sexual harassment may not be trending down as much as we'd like, but its lack of acceptability in the workplace has absolutely changed. So what else has changed? I asked Hannah about her observations of Gen Z and young millennial women. What do they want from their work and their careers?
Al ElliottYou know, I just spent a week with someone significantly younger than me. She's like a niece to me. And, you know, I was listening to her, and she has a full-time job, and she's actually starting a consulting agency on the side. And she's doing amazingly well with her consulting agency, but she's so afraid to go of that, you know, typical job that's bringing in, you know, consistent income. And I was listening to her, you know, just sitting back, not trying to like be a coach and jump in. And she was really kind of talking through in her mind what was most important to her. And what she landed on was life. She wants to build a career around living, not a career around what a career wants, right? Or your business wants. And so she— I told her, I love what you're saying, that you're trying to build your life backwards, right? I always thought if I'm doing this and this and this, I'm going to get to the life I want. She's starting with the life she wants and building the career around that. And I just thought, God, she's so incredible. She's so amazing. Like, she's doing it right. The challenges with people who work in that organization where you're going to be leaving, we're trying to keep those people because those are the most creative and enlightening and exciting new people with fresh ideas. So how can companies companies build their company and retain their employees and flip it around to what is the life you want, building job descriptions. So it's like person and then the life, person and then the job. And I think it's really interesting because I think that's what organizations are struggling with. When, you know, I told someone that I was leaving, they're like, what can we do to keep you? Well, it was too late. We— you should have built the job around me, right? Or the job around the lifestyle that I wanted, or at least offered me, like, for example, a Friday off or something like that. So that I could be, you know, a little bit more energized to do the work. So I think companies have to think differently about, um, you know, paving the way to keep young people engaged.
Leanne ElliottI also asked Hannah about her experiences in corporate and often being the only woman in the room. As it turns out, this was what inspired her to start her own business that is fully women-operated.
Al ElliottI don't know what— if you're at this chapter yet where I do talk about You know, only being one woman in the room, one woman at the table, a sense of competition. I will be completely honest and transparent. I have self-sabotaged myself. I have sabotaged other women. I'm just going to put it out there, who I was afraid that they were going to take my job, take my project, because that's how I was raised, right? That we had to be competitive. And when I left my job, I made a promise to myself that I would rebuild that. You know, turn those mistakes into legacy and that I would focus on mentoring women. I would help women who, when I didn't get helped, right? I would be that change agent. I would be the shower, not the person that said, don't be this person. And I was very conscious in figuring out, okay, what women do I want to be a part of this? Who are the women that will foster that environment? And then at the same time, you know, rolling out a women-led company, especially during COVID like women were burning out at a higher rate than men. I mean, it's just statistically the way it was during COVID and before. And so it was figuring out how can I help those women specifically? Is— was there a company or a place that they could just go just for them? And that's how it initially started. And then of course, it's gotten certainly bigger with other genders. But I think for me, it was most important to turn those mistakes in my heart into a legacy that I could leave.
Leanne ElliottI want to end this conversation with some practical advice and support from our experts on, on all the topics that we've touched on today. But before I do, we've purposely called this episode Women's Health: A Guide for Male Leaders. And so I want to, I want to bring the men back into the conversation. You know, minority groups that are driving change, whether it be women, people of color, in the queer community, we all talk about the importance of allies. Allies are people or groups of people that have the same beliefs, interests, values of us, and but typically the capacity and resources to help. And allies are essential because we can accomplish so much more if we have people who believe in our cause supporting us. The way our society is set up does mean that women are in, in many different ways disproportionately disadvantaged. Can we have it all? I don't know. And I asked Dr. Claire Ashley about this as well, and I think her, her response to, to my question, can we have it all, perfectly frames why we need these allies in our life to, to support us and help us create this change. Here's Dr. Clare.
Al ElliottThat is such a big question, isn't it? Because the feminist in me wants to say, well, of course we can have it all. I, I think that, I think that perhaps that is an unrealistic expectation given how society is set up. I'm not saying that, that we— that's not something that we should aspire to. Absolutely. I think that, that women should be supported in the workplace, that we should have a conversation about flexible work. And, you know, what, you know, the, the other thing to remember is that what works for women works for men as well. You know, this is about leveling the playing field and making it better for everyone, not just women. But I think at this present time, I think it's really, really hard to have it all, whatever, whatever that means.
Leanne ElliottIt's important that we engage allies, not just to, to change the world and make it a better place for, for women, but to, as you know, Dr. Claire says there, to make it a better place for, for men, for everybody. With that in mind, I asked Dr. Kelly, how do we promote women's rights in a way that engages our allies and doesn't push them away?
Al ElliottI think it's— I mean, so much of this almost comes down to Engaging in conversations just doesn't sound enough, but I feel like there has to be more open conversations and recognition and a commitment to real change. Like, we don't want— we just want equity, you know. We don't want to be above Or, you know, advance at rapid rates. We're only talking about basic human needs to a degree.
Leanne ElliottI could not agree more. It sounds so simple, but having these conversations breeds empathy and understanding. They help us to reflect on our own behaviors and identify positive changes and actions that we can take. You know, I felt this way after Al's and Jim Young's conversation. Um, it helped me reflect on, on what my beliefs and behaviors were and how they were impacting him. You know, if you're not ready to have that conversation yet, you know, and perhaps as a woman you might be finding, um, you know, hard to manage work and kids, you might be finding perimenopause really difficult, but you might not quite feel comfortable enough to have that conversation yet, maybe just consider sharing this, this episode. You know, it could serve as a as a starting point to have those conversations with, with the people in your lives. I also asked Hannah her thoughts on how men can better support the women in their lives.
Al ElliottAnd I think that's a great question. I'm actually doing some work with the company here in Portland. They're having gender issues. All their women are leaving and all their men are getting promoted. So I offered to do an engagement session with them and have a very frank discussion in a town hall with women and men in the room of, hey guys, raise your hand, how Well, do you know how to support your female colleague? Okay, if you don't, here's some scripting and here's how to do it. We're doing role-play sessions, Leanne. And I think this is what it's going to take. It's going to be a town hall, an honest discussion, which is, you know, let's talk about bias. Let's talk about the barriers. Let's talk about the system. And that needs to be bred from the inside out of an organization. But it's going to take a while, right? I mean, it took a long time to erode the system. It's going to take a long time to build it back.
Leanne ElliottSo alongside the societal challenges that women experience, we've also learned a lot about menopause, perimenopause, and what a challenging experience it can be. I asked Dr. Kelly, how can we better support ourselves through menopause?
Al ElliottThere's a few key areas that, um, that I really work on with women, and it's the physical health and the hormone health as the 2 key areas. And And the mind. So, you know, the physical health, it's really looking at, okay, how can we optimize things like our sleep? How can we work on strategies there? How can we start to mitigate our stress? Because that stress can actually impact and worsen some of our symptoms.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottLooking at some of our lifestyle behaviors as well. So we know that alcohol can trigger some of the symptoms. So looking at what we can sort of modify there. And where else? Like exercising as well can be a great strategy for a lot of things.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottsort of stress mitigation.
Leanne ElliottSo in addition to the societal challenges that women experience, we've also learned a lot about menopause, perimenopause, and what a challenging experience it can be. I asked Dr. Kelly if there's anything that we can do ourselves to, to really help us better manage these symptoms. She gave lots of great advice. She said, you know, focusing on, on our physical health and our hormone health are really good places to start. Looking at our diet, looking at our sleep, looking at ways to mitigate stress within our lives, looking at some of our lifestyle behaviors, you know, our alcohol consumption, how often we exercise. And finally, a really big one, social connection. Making sure we have that social network around us and stay in contact with the people we need, whether that be friends, whether that be colleagues, whether it be our kids. Um, you know, that social connection is going to be a huge, huge factor in helping us navigate this really challenging time. I also asked Kelly about the support that she offers, um, some more professional support and working with an expert to help women navigate perimenopause.
Al ElliottWith the work that I do, uh, I work highly individualized in one-on-one coaching programs that could be anywhere from 3, 6, or 9 months. And I work on 3 pillars, so the body, mind, and hormone health. And in the body, that's where we talk about, you know, these physical elements that I mentioned before, where we optimize and improve your sleep, we mitigate your stress, we look at recovery, in particular that stress-recovery balance, because that's important, the recovery and the energy. Yeah. For this, you know, the fatigue and the low energy that we feel. So we address those, um, and then from the hormone health as well. So obviously looking at the reproductive hormone side and also the stress hormones that can play a role there, um, in terms of like the symptomology and the severity. So it's really based on those 3 pillars, um, over a couple of months. It's one-on-one consultation, and it's really working on how we, um, how we can suit those strategies to you in your context and in your lifestyle. Um, I also use data-driven insights, so I have a Whoop device on. I get all of my, uh, coachees to wear that so that I have the biometric data as well. So, um, when You tell me you have bad sleep, I can dive in and see exactly what is happening with your sleep. We look at what is happening with your stress. What are some of the stress triggers that we can sort of start to mitigate to really pull down some of those symptoms? We look at these lifestyle factors and what impact alcohol and excessive caffeine can have on these symptoms. So yeah, so it's, it's from the ladies, but then it's also in In terms of their subjective experience, but then it's also using the power of the data that we see and really forming that into an intervention then. So we followed that over the couple of months that we're working together and really underpinned by behavior change. So making some of this habits and routines because it is a couple of years, as we know, that this is going to go on for. So how do we set you are with these strategies that are going to be sustainable. So resetting new habits and, and sort of those behavior changes in the lifestyle as well.
Leanne ElliottA really interesting approach that Kelly takes there, and I'm sure Al will enjoy the wearables aspects. I know that was one of his predictions for 2023 and wearables helping with physical and mental health. So there you go. Kelly has also generously offered all of our listeners who do want to access this type of support a 15% discount on her 6-month one-to-one virtual training program. We will leave Kelly's contact details in the show notes, uh, where you can contact her. And when you do, be sure to mention this podcast to claim your discount. With that in mind, I started by asking Dr. Clare what her vision for the future is in terms of women's health, physically and mentally.
Al ElliottI'd like to see employers taking some responsibility for the health and well-being of their staff and getting rid of burnout culture. And that means listening to the problems that women have and actively supporting them and making impactful changes that mean that they can be the best employee that they can be for you, you know, more productive, make you more money. Or at the end of the day, that's what it's about, isn't it? But also mean that they have a better experience of work. I'd like to see more women in leadership positions. Um, something that frustrates me with You know, obviously I work in the public sector. I see a lot of courses, you know, leadership for women, learn how you can be a leader, break the glass ceiling and all that sort of stuff. But that frustrates me slightly because I feel that that puts the onus for change on the women themselves. And it feeds into this thing called the deficit model. So I'm not sure if you're aware of the deficit model, Leanne. So The deficit model refers to when there's a problem. Generally speaking, in the literature, this is to do with problems like racism. So when you have a systemic problem like racism, the deficit model assumes that the person that is the victim of whatever systemic problem there is, it's their responsibility to change it. And we definitely see this within with, you know, big problems such as racism. But I also see this happen in burnout and with women's health problems as well. The onus for change is placed on the victims of the systemic pressure. And I think that that's a far too— it's very— it's an easy way out, I think, for employers and for leaders to say, well, you know, for instance, if you don't have women being leaders in an organization or lots of women at a senior level, well, We'll put on a course so that women can become leaders. Well, actually, you need to remove some of the barriers, you know, and why should the women be the ones that do that? So I would like to see more change happening at a higher level to allow women to access senior positions that don't mean that those women have to take on that responsibility solely themselves. I'd like to see women more represented in scientific data and studies. Because as we said before, if you don't know that, if you don't have the data to say that there's a problem, then you don't have anything to, to, to, to bounce change off of either.
Leanne ElliottI also asked Clare about what businesses can do to better support women and all employees with burnout prevention and recovery.
Al ElliottSo if we look at what the data says about burnout prevention in the workplace, I think start with some low-hanging fruit and stuff that, you know, that you can really We genuinely do. So peer support and creating a psychologically safe space to work is probably the easiest way of doing it. So we know that peer support and socializing with your peers is really protective against burnout. It builds better team working, it builds individual resilience as well. So perhaps have a think about whether or not you can have a night out or go on a team building day, you know, that stuff.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottReally does genuinely make a difference to how well your team will function and also how the individual members of the team will feel about their work. When we look at the workplace factors that cause burnout, you've got 6 workplace factors that feed into burnout, and peer support tackles a lot of them. So it will tackle feeling valued, because that's a risk factor for burnout if you don't feel valued. It also tackles community. So community is— having a robust community is really important at work. Reward as well is another one. So reward at work doesn't necessarily have to be financial and being your paycheck at the end of the month. It can also be the relationships that you have at work with your teammates. So that ticks a lot of the boxes, just thinking about how you're getting your team to work together, to socialise together, and to support each other. And then in terms of creating a psychologically safe space to work, there's a lot of data that suggests that that also is protective against Burnout is really good for fostering individual resilience and better teams. So that basically means creating an environment where people feel safe to share grievances or to talk about problems that they have without fear of retribution. And the way to do this, if you want to lead from the top, is— and again, it's such low-hanging fruit and it's so simple— it's being civil. It's not even being nice in the workplace. It's just being civil, and being civil has a huge impact on mental well-being and on, um, and on productivity of your organization. The, the effects are far, far-reaching. So if you're thinking about, again, something to start with over the next month, I think that that's a good place to start with as well.
Leanne ElliottDr. Clare actually Talked me through this research, and it's really interesting. You know, it's not, as she said, it's not all about having these kind of really awesome, everyone loves each other work environments. It's actually just being civil, and being civil often just means, you know, removing that toxicity. So yeah, in the research that Dr. Claire quoted, it said that if someone is rude within a team, 80% of people lose time worrying about the rude. Rude, 30% reduce their quality of work, 48% reduce their time at work, 25% of it, uh, 25% of people take it out on service users, and 12% leave. Um, so yeah, it's not all— it's just about being civil. Start there. Great starting point from, from Claire. And finally, I asked Hannah, if there is any women listening that perhaps are at the start of their career, what advice should we be giving them?
Al ElliottI would say find a mentor as soon as possible. Find someone in your organization, female, if you're a female, another female who you trust, respect, and you want to learn from, and start now. Invite them to coffee, ask to shadow them, ask frank questions, have a list of frank questions available. And I would also align yourself with another male in the company. Is there someone who you trust as well who you can have a conversation with to help you elevate into your career as well? I think there's, there's opportunities for mentorship And I think succession planning is something that a lot of companies aren't even— isn't even on their radar, Leanne. I also think we need to build systems and organizations, especially with women, where if you look at your annual review or your 360 evaluation, whatever you're rated on, I would encourage young women to ask their supervisor, their boss, their managers to incorporate a DEI component or an incorporate a collaborative component of your 360, because I think that's most important is, are you aligning with people in your organization to communicate? Are you bringing diversity inclusion to your— are you walking the walk and talking the talk? I don't think young women can ask for something that they're not modeling as well.
Leanne ElliottThank you so much for listening to this conversation, and I will see you again very soon.
Al ElliottWell, I hope you agree that that was quite eye-opening as a male. There's lots and lots of things that I hadn't even thought about. I mean, to be honest, menopause does not sound like fun at all. I'm kind of pleased that I'm a male and I don't have to go through that. But obviously, I understand a bit more, and I understand about the whole idea of perimenopause as well, something which— a word I genuinely hadn't heard of until we'd had these experts on and Leanne had explained what it was to me. So not only is this going to help me to support Leanne through the next 20 years as well, but also as a wife and as a co-founder, but also I hope it's gonna help you as a male leader to understand the unique problems that women have that perhaps we weren't ever aware of. As I mentioned at the beginning, Leanne has got some amazing resources. She's put together an entire list of hundreds and hundreds of resources, as well as links to all of our expert guests. And you can find all of those in the show notes as well as on the dedicated episode page, the link of which is in the show notes. Yeah. Notes. So yet another jam-packed episode that I genuinely hope was useful. Quick note, our stats are showing us that about 65% of you who listen to this aren't subscribed. If you don't subscribe, then you're not going to get all the rest of the episodes coming up for the rest of this year. But also subscribing really, really helps us to move up the charts and to perhaps get that coveted new and noteworthy position in Apple Podcasts. So if you did enjoy this, please click subscribe And also share it. Perhaps that would be really, really useful. We'll be back next week with more stuff around workplace culture. We're both back together again next week, so you can look out for some banter and also the news round feature, which was missing this week. And also that word of the week that Leanne loves to find. I found one for her next week, and I'm going to see if she's going to use it. So have a fantastic week, and we'll see you next time on the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast. Bye. Podcast. Bye for now.