Episode 148 · 26 November 2024 · 51:03

Seasonal slumps, digital surveillance and Keir Starmer’s plan to get Britain working. PLUS! Rob Kalwarowsky’s Hot Take on asshole bosses - This Week in Work, 27th November 2024

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Story 1: Keir Starmer's Get Britain Working White Paper
news roundup#uk-politics #employment-policy #keir-starmer
Story 2: Digital Surveillance Tools and AI-Powered Monitoring
news roundup#ai-monitoring #surveillance #employee-privacy
Story 3: Thanksgiving Table Debate Advice from the APA
news roundup#thanksgiving #family-dynamics #communication
Hot Take: Rob Kalwarowsky on Asshole Bosses
hot take#leadership #toxic-boss #management
Workplace Surgery: Seasonal Productivity Dips
workplace surgery#productivity #seasonal-work #workplace-advice
Workplace Surgery: Supporting a Grieving Employee
workplace surgery#grief #employee-support #mental-health
Workplace Surgery: Social Media and Company Reputation
workplace surgery#social-media #reputation #employer-brand

Show notes

Seasonal Slumps, Digital Surveillance & Keir Starmer's Plan to Get Britain Working — This Week in Work

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Business Psychologist) break down Keir Starmer's "Get Britain Working" White Paper, the rise of AI-powered workplace surveillance, and the APA's advice for surviving Thanksgiving table debates. Plus, Rob Kalwarowsky's Hot Take on why "asshole bosses" are driven by fear — not malice — and the Workplace Surgery tackles December productivity dips, supporting a grieving employee, and a sales team member's questionable social media presence.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Keir Starmer's "Get Britain Working" White Paper The UK government has launched its "Get Britain Working" White Paper, aiming to tackle joblessness and bring over 2 million people back into work. The reforms target barriers to employment — long-term sickness, mental health support, and youth employment — with a pledge to help people find decent, well-paid jobs instead of relying on what Starmer calls the "sick note culture." Source →

2. Digital surveillance tools and AI-powered monitoring AI-powered monitoring tools are increasingly being used to track employee productivity and behaviour — with one system going as far as grading employees into "great, good, average, bad" categories. Al and Leanne unpack why we still associate being busy with being productive, and why surveillance culture might be doing more harm than good. Source →

3. Thanksgiving table debate advice from the APA As the holiday season approaches, the American Psychological Association weighs in on navigating challenging conversations at the dinner table. Dr. Norman, an expert in family dynamics, says it's all about motives — respect is the secret ingredient for any conversation, especially the tough ones. Source →

🎙️ Hot Take: Rob Kalwarowsky on "Asshole Bosses"

This week's Hot Take comes from Rob Kalwarowsky — world-renowned executive coach, author, and speaker — whose upcoming book Antidote to an Asshole Boss explores the psychology behind bad leadership.

Key takeaways:

Many so-called "asshole bosses" are driven by fear, not malicious intent
Understanding and addressing underlying fears can help improve leadership behaviour
Leaders and employees alike must acknowledge their behaviour and take responsibility for growth

Rob's book lays out the promises you make as a leader — and those promises are basically the antidote to being an asshole.

More from Rob Kalwarowsky:

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

1. Seasonal productivity dips A listener from a creative agency struggles with a significant productivity drop every December. Is this just cultural reality, or can you structure around it?

2. Supporting a grieving employee A team member has recently returned after losing their partner suddenly, and their performance is slipping. Leanne shares practical advice on bereavement, phased returns, and why grief isn't linear.

3. Social media and company reputation A prominent sales team member's colourful social media presence — partying, dating life, and questionable content — is raising concerns among younger employees and clients. Where's the line between personal freedom and professional reputation?

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

📚 Resources Mentioned

British Psychological Society guide: Supporting Each Other Following the Death of a Colleague

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.

Al ElliottYes, we are. Welcome, welcome. Hello to you if you are a brand new listener. If you care about the culture at your organisation, then you're in the right place. If you've listened before, then welcome back. You know the score. Every Thursday we bring you a brand new interview with an expert guest who knows how to create great workplace cultures. But it's Tuesday, of course, so today we're bringing you your weekly fix of workplace news, spicy hot takes from our expert panel, and of course, our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to the lovely Leanne.

Leanne ElliottIf you have a question about work, then I would love to help you with it. Check out the show notes to find out how to get in touch. Right now though, it is my favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup. Al, cue the jingle.

Al ElliottCueing, cueing, cueing. It's cued. It's playing. Is it playing? Yeah, it's playing.

Leanne ElliottIt's playing.

Al ElliottIs it coming in my ears? It's coming in your ears. What have you seen, Lee?

Leanne ElliottKeir Starmer's government has launched the Get Britain Working white paper, aiming—

Al ElliottCatchy, easy to say.

Leanne ElliottVery easy to say. Aiming to tackle joblessness and bring over 2 million people back into work. And people are reacting. The plan addresses economic inactivity, which has risen since the pandemic, partly due to long-term sickness, with currently 2.8 million people out of work for health reasons. Keir Starmer described the situation starkly, saying Britain Isn't working.

Al ElliottAnd I like that because that works on 2 levels. Yeah, it's not working and they're not working. Carry on.

Leanne ElliottSorry. And pledge meaningful reforms to help people find decent, well-paid jobs instead of relying on what he called sticking plaster politics. I should mention, actually, if we have any international listeners listening who aren't familiar with Keir Starmer, he's the current British PM. I know we've had a lot in the last few years, so it's understandable you wouldn't know who he is. Um, anyway, the government plans to provide extra NHS resources in areas with the highest unemployment, expand mental health support, and tackle issues like obesity, which are seen as barriers to work. A major overhaul of job centers will also see them replaced by a national jobs career service backed by £55 million to focus more on helping people into employment rather than just monitoring benefits. There's also a youth guarantee to ensure that every young person has access to education, training, or job opportunities. Starmer emphasized that the reforms aim to end the culture of blaming and shaming unemployed people. He said the government wants to give everyone, regardless of their age, health or background the support that they need to work, calling work a source of dignity and purpose. However, he also made it clear that those who are able to work will be expected to do so. The reforms have received praise from several quarters. Peter Cheese, CEO— just love Peter's name— Peter Cheese, CEO of the Chartered Institute for Personal Development, that's the CIPD, called them a step in the right direction, particularly applauding the changes to the apprenticeship levy, which will now be more flexible to support businesses. Disability charity Scope welcomed the vision for helping disabled job seekers into employment, noting that, noting that the focus on tailored support could make a real difference for those who've historically struggled to access meaningful opportunities. Richard Kramer, who is CEO of the disability charity Sense, similarly welcomed the reforms, emphasizing the need for sensitivity when supporting disabled individuals. He warned against pressuring people into unsuitable roles but commended the government's ambition to address barriers to employment. Critics, however, are less optimistic. Economist Len Shackleton Writing in the Telegraph, argued that the plan falls short of what's needed to solve the scale of the worklessness crisis. He called it feeble stuff compared to the ambitious New Deal policies of the 1990s. Fun fact: I was in welfare to work when New Deal was around. But yet that did actually heavily fund support for people, but also did pressure people to engage in training or risk losing their benefits. Shackleton points out that this new initiative lacks the same funding or accountability, with just £240 million earmarked for reforms. far less than previous efforts, especially when adjusted for inflation. Shackleton also doubts whether some measures like reducing NHS waiting lists will meaningfully address joblessness in hard-hit areas. He criticized the lack of immediate action on benefits reform, which he sees as vital to encouraging people back to work. While the paper promises a consultation on health and disability benefits in the spring, he said that it's unlikely changes— or it's more likely that changes are years away. So yeah, very mixed opinions on how to get Britain working again. Our thoughts?

Al ElliottWell, I was going to bring up that you were in, uh, you were involved in it in the New Deal days, um, and, um, I think that there was a lot of really, really good success from that, which was unusual because it was a Labour government back then, wasn't it? Am I right in thinking that? Start of Labour government, um, and it was a Labour sort of initiative, and that seemed to work really, really well. Um, surprise, surprise, someone from The Telegraph, which is a very sort of Conservative with a capital C Tory paper doesn't like something that the Labour leader is doing or the Prime Minister doing, Labour Party. Surprise, surprise. I always—I feel a little bit sorry for—for the Prime Minister, although I'm—I'm personally—I don't think he's the right guy for the job. But that's—that's a different discussion for a different day. But I always think that he's getting paid 140 grand a year, which is not a whole lot really. And no matter what he does, there's going to be half the country going to go. This is a load of rubbish. Can you imagine that at work? Whatever you do, 50% or 48% or 52% of the people in the business are going to go, that's a load of shite, isn't it?

Leanne ElliottI know he's not even getting his perks anymore, is he? He's had to give all them back. Yeah, do you know what? It's one of those things that worklessness— let's not pretend that this is a new problem. Worklessness, joblessness is so ingrained in British culture. And it has been for so long. It's a systemic problem that needs solving. So I don't think it's necessarily about politics. I think both governments have had a crack at it. At trying to fix this and haven't really managed to do so. And my personal view is that the, the programs put in place focus on the wrong things. They focus on getting people into work, and the programs that I worked on that were particularly effective didn't even talk about getting people a job for the first 6 to 12 months they were on it. They talked about addressing the barriers that this person had, whether it be parenting challenges, whether it be relationship issues, money issues, mental health issues, physical health challenges. There's a whole host of things we'd look at before we even started talking about work, about jobs. And eventually you overcome those barriers, you get people into work and they stay there. This is much a psychological issue. There are many people out there who have been brought up in multi-generational worklessness families. There are people that we worked with on our programmes who were shamed by members of their family for wanting to get into work, saying things like, who do you think you are? There's so much wrapped up in it. I don't think it's as easy to say we'll give people access to education and training, we'll give people, um, Yeah. Um, you know, less options in if they don't choose to go into work, scaling back benefits, etc. It's— it doesn't really work. And the other thing I'd say is that some people just don't want to work. And I feel I can say that having been in welfare to work for a number of years. And man, they play the system beautifully, to the point where me and my colleagues would applaud some of these people because they'd be so creative in how they'd find the little loopholes to still get their benefits. and not going to work. Um, so yeah, it'll be interesting how it shakes out. Um, I can't imagine Labour is going to change, or Keir Starmer more accurately, is going to solve this problem that's been around for decades. But let's see.

Al ElliottYeah, good luck to them.

Leanne ElliottHow about you, Al? What have you seen this week?

Al ElliottWell, as you probably know, Leanne, you definitely know, and regular listeners, you know, I'm pretty bullish on AI, artificial intelligence.

Leanne ElliottIs it because it's your name?

Al ElliottIt's because it's my name. Although I think I've said this before, I had the A brilliant domain which I bought about 5 years ago called chatwithal.com, and now it's just been ruined by AI because it looks like it's chatwithai.

Leanne ElliottYou still got that though?

Al ElliottI've still got it.

Leanne ElliottOh, that could be something.

Al ElliottIt could, it could be, could be worth something. A misspelled domain, been known before. Anyway, so I obviously, I've said before, I genuinely think it will change the way we work, but there's always someone who ruins it for everyone. Anyway, so I saw this post on Reddit and it was this guy, a software guy who was appraising a new monitoring software for his company. It was kind of scary because it was a bit like sort of this digital prison, and I'll tell you what it was in a second. So the software basically creates productivity graphs that monitor everything. So like keystrokes. Now that's not a new thing. A new thing— keystrokes have been monitored for, for before. But keystrokes, time away from the computer. Okay, well, that's where the mouse jiggler came in. How fast you type, that's new. How often you use backspace, um, and how many emails you send. And also how effective you are. Now it uses AI to calculate all this. How effective you are on Friday.

Leanne ElliottHmm.

Al Elliottcompared to other days. And this is where it gets worse. It then groups employees into great, good, average, bad, and terrible. I'm going to read this bit because this is kind of like scary. This was on the post. If you fall below a cutoff percentage, say you type slower than your colleague or take longer to fill out a form or, or have to answer a phone call in the middle of writing an email, you get a red flag for review that gets sent to your manager and whoever else they choose. You can then be prompted to justify this gap in productivity in their web portal. If your desktop is idle for more than 30 to 60 seconds, i.e., no meaningful mouse or keyboard movement, you get another red flag. If your workflow is, is, is consistent Monday to Thursday but falls below the set aggregate data score on a Friday, you get a red flag. It also claims it can use all of this gathered data for workflow efficiency automation.

Leanne ElliottHmm.

Al ElliottIn other words, replacing you. Now, this is the twist. That's bad enough, but here's the twist, and this is why this is the— you know, you talked before about someone being genius but like just working the system. This is, this is evil genius. I'd imagine they're sitting in a polo— oh, you're wearing a polo neck, sorry— but like a turtleneck in a cave going, hahaha. The twist is that this company who's selling this also sells AI-powered productivity tools, which is a fancy way of saying some AI that's gonna do your job. In other words, they're creating the demand for their own products by saying, look how inefficient your guys are. Wouldn't it be nice if we swapped them out for a nice bit of AI that was much, much cheaper? Not very cool. And just basically, I've said before, I just think it's a bit evil. Although I have to say, chapeau, take my hat off a little bit to the people who've thought this idea through. I think the fact is, I've always said that you should measure the outcome, not the work, because I don't think it really matters how you get there. Yeah. AI can help with time-consuming tasks like collation of data. We use it here sometimes for long, for long articles. We put it into ChatGPT or Claude and say, can you give me the summary of this? Because it then allows you the thinking time. So you've got that summary, you can go away and maybe have a cup of tea, think about it and go, oh, this is how we're going to do it. We also use AI to get ideas for content, gets a first draft, but then we'll take time to sit on that and work through it. I believe the goal for AI is to replace this drudgery, doing that so that you can do the stuff that it can't. Like, for example, in software, um, I know there's a bit of drudgery when you're setting up an app that you have to basically write a database schema, you have to write all the migrations for it, you have to do all this. I won't go into the nerdery, but you have to do all that. That's stuff which a junior developer could do, but in actual fact, it's still a waste of their time. So it's— that's where AI is perfect for. Leah, what are your thoughts on the evil genius?

Leanne ElliottIt just really surprises me that we still associate being busy with being productive.

Al ElliottOh yes, brother.

Leanne ElliottYou know, and I don't think any of the data out there really shows that that is the case. If they're trying to prove that there are some tasks that AI can do better, cool. There are some tasks that AI can do better or certainly will do better over the next few years. But it's just, it's flawed assumptions that are being carried forward. And I think that's the stupid thing, isn't it really? Technology advances, but our understanding of what it is to be human and to be productive and to be engaged in our work is still 50, 60, 70 years old. So yeah, I think it's many fast advances in some, and sadly not in the places that really matter for me. But I'm not really surprised. I don't think it will— I think it will do what it's intended to do. It will highlight the tasks that AI can probably do more effectively. I'd like to think that organizations will then reuse that value-add time in other ways that only a human can. I think it'll come down again to culture. I think we're going to have organizations that will embrace the darker side of AI, and we'll have organizations that will embrace the innovative side of AI. And I think ultimately, as a candidate, it should hopefully make it a bit easier to identify the type of organization that you want to work for.

Al ElliottLeah, what else have you seen?

Leanne ElliottI thought it might be, um, I thought it might be fun, uh, to talk about, um, how Thanksgiving, um, especially given recent events in, in the US, there may be, um, some people that are a bit apprehensive about going home this Thanksgiving. Um, this is what I'm thinking now. Imagine, close your eyes, let this, let this image swell, swell, float, fill your mind. You've got, you've got the smell of roasted turkey, it's wafting through the house. We'll pretend you do. The table is adorned with pumpkin-themed place cards. The family is gathered. Kids are giggling, grandparents are reminiscing, cousins sneaking a taste of the stuffing. And then just as everyone digs in, somebody casually drops, so what do you think about the election? And just like that, the cozy atmosphere teeters on the edge of disaster. If that sounds familiar, you're not alone. According to the American Psychological Association, Stress levels are sky high this time of year, with 77% of adults citing the future of the nation as a major concern. Add in the usual holiday pressures like time, money, and finding the perfect balance between turkey and yams, it's a recipe for tension. Um, any Brits listening who aren't entirely sure what yam is, same. I asked an American colleague recently and I was told that they're kind of like a sweet potato but with more drama. She said think softer, sweeter, orangey goodness that shows up every Thanksgiving, usually drenched in marshmallows and brown sugar. I'm pretty sure it's a vegetable. Um, it's basically dessert pretending to be dinner. Thank you for that excellent explanation, Anna. Um, so anyway, Dr. Norman Epstein—

Al ElliottHopefully no, no relation.

Leanne ElliottIt's not his fault if he is.

Al ElliottGood point.

Leanne ElliottWe're talking about family arguments, so maybe this is, you know, anyway.

Al ElliottImagine his Thanksgiving table. The conversation you're gonna have.

Leanne ElliottAnyway, Dr. Norman is an expert in family dynamics and says it's all about motives. If you're tempted to jump into a heated discussion, ask yourself, what's my goal here? If it's to win the argument, maybe take a step back. After all, wouldn't you rather remember the day for laughter and loveliness and maybe a second helping of pie? Um, so yeah, instead try focusing on understanding. Ask questions, listen, show genuine curiosity. about somebody else's perspective. You don't have to agree, but giving space for different views can ease tensions. And if things do get heated, remember to fight fair. Use I statements like, I feel differently about that, and steer clear of blame. And most importantly, don't interrupt.

Al ElliottDon't what? Sorry.

Leanne ElliottLol. Don't interrupt, Al. Respect is a secret ingredient for any conversation, especially the tough ones. And here's a really important one, and sometimes it's just the best course of course of action, let it go. Put it in that big red balloon and let it go. Agree to disagree. Not every debate needs a resolution, um, especially when you've got yams to eat, right? Um, you might be thinking as a business owner, particularly a British one, Leanne, why are you talking about this? Um, well, it's, it's a business podcast and you're right, um, it is. But for business leaders, this type of conflict management is, uh, take it, take it as your weekly leadership development session. Everything I've just said you can apply in your business, particularly when we're in this current state of a bit of political polarization and divide. More on that, go back to the episode we did recently with Kat and Liz about how to have difficult conversations. But thought is a worthy reminder that if you are a leader and you've gone through some of this training before, you might want to just refresh yourself as you go back to a family dinner over Thanksgiving and the holidays. Our thoughts.

Al ElliottI have no— nothing to add. After this very short break, we're back with this week's hot take from the man who describes himself as an ex-asshole boss, and of course, our world-famous weekly workplace surgery. See you in a second. Don't go anywhere. Come back for the yams and the chat.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Seamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode On fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.

Leanne ElliottWelcome back. As regular listeners will know, every week we ask a workplace expert expert for their hot take on the world of work. Today we hear from the awesome Rob Kalwarowsky, the world expert on asshole bosses, uh, because he used to be one, frankly. His, his words, not mine. Um, he's also the author of upcoming book Antidote to an Asshole Boss. Rob's TED Talk has been seen by almost 150,000 people, and Rob consults with some of the biggest names on the planet, including Nokia, IDEO, and even Olympic gold medalists. So it's no real surprise that Rob's going to be talking about bad bosses. What may be a surprise is that he says it's not always their fault. Al interviewed Rob recently, and if you're watching on YouTube, this is not a fake background.

Al ElliottI'm Rob Kalwarowsky. I'm a world-renowned executive coach, author, and speaker, and I am famous for, I guess, 2 things. One is I did a TED Talk And I wrote a book on asshole bosses. And the other thing I'm famous for is actually my dog Winston. So I include stories about Winston. He's a Labradoodle. He's incredibly cute in all my talks. And so actually he's probably more famous than me. And yeah, for the background, so I'm down in the beautiful Costa Rica and it's, it's absolutely incredible. You are living the life. I love it. So what's your hot take around work or probably more likely bosses? 65% of the workforce has an asshole boss. My hot take is that regardless of what type of boss you have, it's not their fault. And it's, we all have the capability of being an asshole. Now, the concept of my book, Antidote for an Asshole Boss, is both tackling the different boss types that exist and how they're destructive to the leadership and the workforce. But the true antidote is being able to give ourselves and look inward to understand what's going on in our mindset that is making us behave in these certain ways. And once we heal those things and we can look at our own behaviors And tweak them, that's when we get more freedom. We live with less fear and we get better results as leaders, and we can do cool stuff like this, living in Costa Rica. And that is the true message for me. It's not— I don't want to shame people for being assholes. We all have the capability of being one. But we can change. And we can grow. The book goes a lot into the psychology of bad bosses or just not bad boss behavior, basically. And all of this is driven by fear. Fear that we're not good enough. Fear that we're not powerful. Fear that we're not loved. Fear that we're abandoned or rejected or fear all these types of things. And ultimately, As we start to learn that those fears are not true, we can change and those behaviors go away. And that's where— that's the true magic to this deeper work. And I don't want folks to feel bad. Like, I've yelled at people before too. And I like to think I'm a half-decent person, right? But as I did the work and as I got better, Now I don't do that anymore, but it also unlocks freedom and, and different perspectives and a better way of being. So in The Antidote to an Asshole Boss, we're not necessarily saying if you— that you need to eliminate the fear before you become a boss. You're saying sort of almost like, to paraphrase that book, feel the fear and manage anyway. Is that what we're saying? We can do it either way. Many of us We are leaders before we maybe get this book. Then it's, we're assessing ourselves. What type of behaviors do we have and where's it coming from? If you're working for an asshole boss, I'm not saying you don't set boundaries. I'm not saying you don't leave the organization if they're abusive. But what I want to say is that it's coming from a place And I don't want you to walk around saying this person's a bad person because that doesn't help anyone. Imagine someone's listening and they have got this asshole boss. Then is there a way to find out whether they have got— the boss has got this fear that you talk about, or whether they are just an asshole? Everyone always has fear. I mean, there's a small percentage. It's roughly, I believe, 1% of the general population. And it's slightly higher in management roles, around 3% of folks who are sociopaths. They don't have fear. They just are assholes. Like, and we see them in politics. We see them in celebrities. We see them as, you know, CEOs of massive businesses. They get very successful because they're very good at, you know, these power-building Machiavellian-type behaviors. So in all likelihood, your boss is a normal person who has, who's under stress, or, you know, their childhood raised them that they have to be better or perfect or that whatever these things are. And we all have those things. And the more aware we become in our own experience, the more aware we can be with other folks. And I'm not, and again, it's not about greenlighting these behaviors. It's about choosing from our own place of wholeness, how we need to respond and how we can set boundaries, whether we need to leave, whether we need to transfer internally, how all these things work in order for us to be at our best. Because ultimately, that's what matters. We need to feel our best, perform our best, and achieve our own goals. If there was one thing someone could take away from the book Antidote to an Asshole Boss, what do you I know you've said a lot, and I think I know what your answer is going to be, but what's the one thing you want them to take away from it? This isn't a book about shame. This is a book about transformation. Short and sweet. I love it. If someone wants to follow your work, get in touch with you, uh, find out what your TEDx— perhaps get into— get on the waitlist for the book, where do they go? Yeah, robkalwarowsky.com has all of my material. So it talks about my executive coaching, it talks about The speaking. And for folks out there, if you're looking for keynote speakers, hit me up. I have a bunch of talks that are really good, but you can also sign up and get the first 30 pages for free right now. If you're, if you're listening to the audio version of this, then just maybe flip over to, um, to YouTube, skip to about minute 21, and you'll just see Rob's background. It is awesome and it's real and it's just cool. Anyway, so I'll tell you what just really did surprise me when I was talking to Rob is that 65% of people Have got an asshole boss, which I was like, that seems a fair amount. And me not having a boss for like, you know, which might be a good thing, might be a bad thing, not since about 2002. I don't really think about these things. But what was quite interesting is that the bosses aren't necessarily doing it on purpose, and they can see it's coming from this place of fear, which is something I hadn't really thought about. Um, you know, they're, they sort of got this baggage they're pulling forward from either from their home life or perhaps from— makes me wonder. My dad was a, was a big boss back in the civil service. Um, and he used to— he had a terrible home life with us lot because there was 4 kids, and I'm sure he just wanted to get out of the house. I wonder if he was an asshole boss. I might have to find someone to find out. Anyway, the other thing is that 3% are genuine sociopaths, which is kind of funny. And I think that, uh, of those 3%, I think we know one of them is running a large social media, um, company right now. Anyway, Lee, what did you think?

Leanne ElliottAnother one's gonna run the US in— sorry, it's not political. I'm not—

Al ElliottYou never said when. Not necessarily the next 4 years. It could be in the future. We don't know.

Leanne ElliottYes, because 1 in 100 people are psychopathic. So that's just statistics.

Al ElliottLeanne, back, back, back onto the metaphorical script. I'm gonna get cancelled. Yes. 52% of Americans are not happy with you right now. Carry on. Happy Thanksgiving. You'll get a yam up the ass.

Leanne ElliottWhat I liked about Rob, I mean, it does sound like his book is gonna be the same, gonna go the same way. And what I loved about his TED Talk as well, he's not there to name and shame. He is there to kind of, Offer some explanations, some reasons why, and then also demand the accountability needed to improve your leadership skills. He is like a bit of a leader whisperer, isn't he, of asshole bosses?

Al ElliottYou can't call it an asshole whisperer, can you? Because that would be the worst name for it.

Leanne ElliottSorry. Why?

Al ElliottWell, because you can't say an asshole whisperer.

Leanne ElliottIt's a leadership whisperer.

Al ElliottOh, sorry. I thought you said— I heard asshole whisperer. Carry on.

Leanne ElliottI can't remember, but—

Al ElliottYou're talking about—

Leanne ElliottI meant a leadership whisperer. Yeah, like, you remember César Millán?

Al ElliottYeah, he was the Dog Whisperer.

Leanne ElliottYeah, he had some troubles though, didn't he?

Al ElliottYes, he did. That's dark. Let's move away from that.

Leanne ElliottBack onto assholes. Exactly. Um, yeah, no, I get it. I get that it's from fear. It's like when we were talking to Kate a couple of episodes ago about how, you know, she said she used to be an asshole boss, um, and a lot of that came from insecurity or you're not feeling capable or confident in your role. So I totally get it. Um, it's, it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility to do better, to be better. And this is honestly why my favorite book on leadership is John O'Meechan. It's not because I just mean, do you wanna meet? You're like, BFFs.

Al ElliottI wish.

Leanne ElliottIt really isn't. It's because his book lays out the promises you make as a leader, and those promises are basically, what can you do to be better even though it's really frickin' hard? It's not meant to be easy. It's a huge responsibility. With great power comes great responsibility. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to Rob's book. Can't wait. I believe we're on the PR list, so hopefully we'll get an early copy. But yeah, brilliant. If you haven't watched Rob's TED Talk, go and watch it now. It's also, um, we did feature it actually on the podcast not so long ago in our, um, Fresh Voices, I think.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnd back over the summer, um, very vulnerable, very real, very relatable, um, but also very, um, very important advice for leaders who might be struggling, who want to do better, um, and, and can do better. And I think that's what Rob's point is. You can You can.

Al ElliottYou can. Before we go on to the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, I just want to be clear. Rob, if you're listening, and I hope you are, Leanne is saying that it's her favorite leadership book right now because yours isn't published. But don't worry, when yours is published—

Leanne ElliottAt time of recording.

Al ElliottYes, it will be Leanne's favorite, 100%. Uh, I believe you can go to Rob's website and get a free chapter and get on the waitlist. I think, uh, definitely well worth doing. Rob is a superstar. And also It's cool. We've spoke to Rob a few times and it's the most chilled out I've ever seen him. He's just— he just made me smile. He looks so happy and cool. Um, anyway, so it's my favorite time of the week. It's time for the world famous Week of Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. That's the lady who was sitting— the woman who's sitting just over there, and also my wife. Um, in case you haven't worked it out yet, then Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist with decades of experience helping organizations create amazing workplaces.

Leanne ElliottNot that many decades, I'm not that old.

Al ElliottAll right, well, I was— I'm trying, I'm trying to big you up here, but yes, with a decade and a, and 9 years.

Leanne Elliott1.6 decades.

Al Elliott1.6 decades. It's her job to give our lovely listeners advice on work-related problems. So talking of problems, here's the first one, Leanne. Every year I seem to face the same challenge. From about mid-November, it feels like everyone mentally checks out. Projects that would normally take a week take a minimum of 3. Meetings get canceled because people are on holiday. And trying to get decisions made before the Christmas break is pointless. I've tried different approaches, setting strict deadlines, offering incentives for completed projects. That's a good idea. And even threatening to cancel the Christmas party one year. Boo. I didn't follow through. I hope you didn't either. Other agency owners tell me to accept it's just how December is, but we are losing almost a month of productivity every year by humbug. Meanwhile, our January becomes incredibly stressful as everyone scrambles to catch up. Leigh, thoughts?

Leanne ElliottWhat, what the other people said, really. It's kind of just the way it is. There's actually a recent suit done this year. 12,000, um, um, people were surveyed in the UK, the US, and Germany, and across countries, 50% expected to lose focus in December.

Al ElliottWow.

Leanne ElliottUm, so yeah, so in terms of, is this just, you know, is this just a cultural reality? Is there something you can do about it? I think it is just the reality of it, and there's not much you can do about it. I mean, there's things that— there's things I'd say that might help. Um, I think first of all, it's positive reinforcement is much more effective than negative reinforcement. So don't take away the Christmas party, you know, give something— give something positive. Um, look, like a bonus or incentive, as you said, for finishing projects. If that's not working, I'm wondering if there's some issue with follow-through here, because you did also— Yeah. Threatened to cancel the Christmas party and then didn't. So people might be doubting whether you're going to follow through on those positive promises as well. You could offer flexible working. It could be that people are just trying to juggle a million different things at this time of year and productivity can dip whilst they're in the office. You could focus on other activities that support business performance that aren't perhaps as deadline-driven. For example, is this a good time to look at team-building activities or planning for next year? My other thought would be if people are losing steam towards the end of the year, and it is one of these, we talk about these temporal landmarks, um, that people have this, you know, in, in point in time that they're leading up to. It's just something, you know, before you go on holiday, you just can't wait to get there, can you? Um, I guess I'd be wondering is if, are people, you know, just losing steam because they've been quite pressured and had high workloads on the lead-up? For example, I don't know, agencies, is September, October a busy time because you're Gearing up for certain client work that is executed in time for December. I don't know. If productivity is a real issue, you could look at outsourcing, things like that. Setting those clear targets, having clear incentives, bonuses, for example, if things are delivered. I mean, the other thing is consult your people. If there is a problem, what would they recommend to keep them motivated? That might be financial, that might be flexible working, that might be the option to work from home.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottWhatever it is, ultimately you have to decide whether this is a cultural challenge that you can structure better in the years ahead, like flipping what work it is you're going to focus on, changing deadlines, expecting this to be the case, or you need to decide if this is a fundamental performance management issue. If you're losing money and you need your people to do better, then it's not really connected to the time of year. It just seems to be that this is, this is a particularly problematic time of year for you. Um, so that would be my thoughts overall, but I think culturally it is one of those things really that we do kind of run out of steam or start to wind down a bit before, um, before the holidays. Some of the recent data seems to back that up. Um, so I'd say it probably is kind of the way it is, but as always, consult your people, see what they think, what might help. Um, clear targets, clear incentives, follow through.

Al ElliottI think the issue that a lot of business owners or leaders or anyone really who wants to get an idea into the world or wants to to get things done. If they just say, if everyone could just— if you find yourself using that phrase, if everyone could just stop eating meat, if everyone could just work like they were supposed to in December— not everyone's not going to just. Like, we've just found out 50% of people— that's good if you're asking for everyone in the, in the, uh, in the organization— 50% of people still be working in December and working just as hard. That's still pretty good. So I think that rather than saying let's try and change behavior, Which is very, very difficult and also can lead to potentially losing people. Why not just go, right, we've only got 11 months of the year, so let's take our work and split it over those 11 months. Let's make sure that in November there's no sort of operational stuff that I've got to deal with. There's no— nothing that's going to pop its head up. That's— which means we can spend all of November trying to do November and half of December's work, um, and just fit it into those 11 months. I mean, that's what, um, that's what smart accountants do. They don't wait until January and do everyone's tax returns. That's in the UK. I don't know if it's the same in North America and Australia, but in January you have to submit your tax returns. They don't wait to January. They do it during the year. They spread it over the year.

Leanne ElliottSo my question also would be with that is if we know that 50% of people in businesses lose steam in December, who are you delivering projects for and what are they going to do with them when you submit that on the 24th of December? I don't know. Is it just in your— it's more the principle that's pissing you off than the actual delivery of the work? Do you know what I mean? It sounds like maybe this is your expectations that need to shift a little bit. I know, maybe there'll be some people screaming going, no, Leanne, people should be working all the time. All right, Elon, I hear you. Not my style.

Al ElliottLeanne, I've got another question for you, as would be customary for this 3-question segment. I will read it to you. Hi, Leanne. This is nice already. Hi, Leanne. Oh no, hang on, I'm going to change the tone on this. Hi, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottOh God.

Al ElliottI know. I'm struggling with a delicate situation. One of my most valued team members lost their partner suddenly 6 weeks ago. Oh yeah, a bit sad. They've returned to work, and whilst I want to be supportive, I'm noticing some challenges. They're understandably struggling to focus and meet deadlines, which is affecting other team members who are picking up the slack. Some days they seem fine, others they're clearly not coping. Their team is being incredibly patient, but I can sense a slight growing frustration as we head into our busiest period. I've offered flexible hours and reduced workload, but client demands mean I can only do this for so long. How do I balance being a compassionate employer with maintaining the business's needs?

Leanne ElliottHow long has this person been back in work?

Al ElliottI don't know, he doesn't say. But I mean, 6 weeks ago this person's partner passed away.

Leanne ElliottOkay, so at most they've, they've, you know, at most they've probably been back in a month, right?

Al ElliottYeah, you'd think, but I don't know what the What bereavement leave is, you know, what's recommended.

Leanne ElliottBut I think for a partner, it's usually fairly, fairly generous. 2 weeks to go, lost your partner, is not really long enough, is it? And I think that's the point. Yeah, you know, this is very fresh, very raw. This person will, will probably not really know the type of support that they need. This is, you know, a shocking traumatic event to go through, and it's going to take longer than 6 weeks to to even start to get to some, you know, normality in functioning, including work. This is really tricky. You said they're a valuable member of the team, um, so treat them as a valuable member of the team. The thing I would say first of all is educate yourself on grief, because there's lots of different, um, reactions to grief. There's, there's cognitive reactions to grief. Our memory gets worse.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottWe can become quite impulsive. Um, there's obviously the emotional reaction— we're sad, we're angry. Um, there's, there's so many different aspects to it and how it impacts us. Educating yourself on that might help you recognize some signs of this person's grief that you're not necessarily recognizing as grief. So for example, some of these performance issues may be, may be a result of that. Um, it—

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottIt's really tricky, and I think the thing is to remember that grief isn't linear as a process. People process it in different ways. It takes different amounts of time, and they're gonna probably get— seem like they're much, much better, and then they could regress backwards again. This is gonna be a process, and at this point, you know, it is— you're gonna have to decide as a company, if you don't already have these policies in place, how are you gonna support this person as a valued member of the team? My recommendation would be to support them with all the resources that that you have able to, of course within the financial and commercial constraints of your business. I would say make sure this person is well supported by their manager. If you're their manager, then have these regular check-ins, work in consultation with this person. What do they need from you in this moment? What can they, um, how is work contributing to their processing this grief? It might be that actually work is the only time where they feel some sort of form of normality Or it might be the case that work is bringing normality that's so shocking to them that, you know, it's that guilt that you feel like you're getting over it because you're getting back in the swing of things. It's like time moves on. It's all really, really difficult, and I can't answer for this person because people process it in all sorts of ways. You're going to have to have these conversations with your member of staff and understand how best to support them. Flexible working is a great idea if that's what they want and what finds You know, is helpful. I would look at other things, like maybe looking at a job share at this point, having like a buddy in work that they can work on projects with so things aren't completely dropped if this person has a bad day and needs to take time off. Um, yeah, you're gonna have to make some decisions around the financial implications of this. It might be, so, you know, you can take time off as and when you need it, but I can only pay you for up to a certain amount. And that's a hard decision, but it's one that commercially you, you have to make your business and you'll know. what you'll be able to, to stretch to with that. Um, it's really hard. I had a member of staff who lost their partner, um, and it's very tricky. But you know what, I, I did push it, and I probably was commercially, you know, not so minded in that, in that moment. But she was an incredible member of staff, and when she did come back to work, we made sure it was a phased return first of all. So that's the other thing, is persons come back full-time, that might have been a bit too much a bit too soon.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottWe did a phased return to work. We were in touch every day chatting in terms of work, but also just in terms of how are you, how are you doing? You know, just being that, um, that emotional support for them in that moment as they need it as well. Because things— something's going to happen in their day at different points. It's gonna, you know, trigger a memory, trigger a thought of, of the person that they've lost. And, and it's, it's really— it's up and down. Um, but you know what, we went through that process and I don't know, maybe 3 or 4 months down the line, that person's performance was back up to where it was, and she was an exceptional member of the team and continued to be so. I don't know, for somebody in your business that contributes, can you afford 3 to 4 months to support them through one of the most devastating life events? Personally, in my business, yeah, we do give that time. But that's, you know, understand the commercial restraints that you're going to have in, in your business. So I'd say educate yourself. Um, create any type of plan in consultation with this member of staff and do the numbers now. Understand what you can afford to, to do in terms of flexible working, paid leave, time off at short notice, um, and that buddy system as well so that the team, um, you know, aren't getting frustrated. There might need to be some training for them as well in terms of, in terms of grief. And stay tuned, we actually have an episode on grief coming up in couple of weeks with somebody who is an advocate for supporting employees with bereavement and loss in the workplace. So stay tuned for that.

Al ElliottNicely said, Leanne. I obviously can't comment on the psychological side of it or the work culture side of it because that's Leanne's domain. What I can say from the commercial side of it is that whatever you invest into this member of staff right now in terms of money, resources, whatever, it almost certainly won't be forgotten. If you are the best person to see them, the best boss to see them through this really dark time, Then you potentially have got them for life. Someone who's going to be an advocate, someone who's going to fight your corner. So don't look at it purely in the, you know, in the, in the dollars and cents spreadsheet way. Just think about it. This is an investment. This is the, this is the way to prove that they are in the right place and that you are the right person for them to work for. So yeah, very sad. And I hope that, I hope I hope everyone in that situation has a slightly easier time.

Leanne ElliottI'll leave a link. There's actually a pretty good guide that was developed by the British Psychological Society during COVID about that, how to manage loss, both in terms of an employee losing somebody or losing a colleague within the business. So I'll leave a link to that in the show notes. Maybe have a little read through that as well. That'll certainly be a really good starting point for educating yourself about the grief process.

Al ElliottFabulous. Now looking at this next one, um, I don't see a way to segue at all, so I'm just gonna— I'm just gonna turn the volume up a little bit and just pretend that we didn't have a very sad one and just say, right, question number 3, Leanne. That was really weird. Question number 3, Lan— Leanne— Lan—

Leanne ElliottLan.

Al ElliottLen. A prominent member of our sales team has a pretty colorful social media presence. She frequently shares details about her partying and dating life Including some rather questionable photos. There you go. Why? I think we know what they are. While her profiles don't directly mention our company, it's not hard to connect her to us. She's tagged in our company photos and lists us as an employee on LinkedIn. I think Leanne's going to say something about that in a second. Recently, a client mentioned seeing one of her posts and made a comment about it being unprofessional. I think Leanne's going to say something about that in a moment. What's more concerning is that some of our younger team members follow her and seem to be accepting— adopting a similar attitude towards their social media presence. Where do I draw the line between respecting personal freedom and protecting our company's reputation?

Leanne ElliottI'm intrigued. What is it you think I'm going to say?

Al ElliottWell, going back to this, first of all, recently a client mentioned seeing one of her posts, made a comment about being unprofessional. I reckon that client is probably a middle-aged white pervy old man who's been having a look at her post, because otherwise why the hell are you following her? That's number one. Number 2, while our profiles don't directly mention our company, it's not hard to connect her to us. She's tagged in our company photos and listed as an employee on LinkedIn. Well, so is everyone else. This isn't a special situation. It's not like she's gone, oh well, you know, I never even thought that I was on your, on your website, never even thought that I put you on LinkedIn. That's what everyone does. Anyway, those are my 2 thoughts, but Leanne, yours to pen a thought.

Leanne ElliottIndeed. My question wouldn't be like— if that was me and my— and the client said that to me, that's quite under pressure. I've seen the pictures on her Instagram and be like, why are you Exactly. Um, this is— these are— I mean, yeah, it's— first of all, this is— this is— there's work and there's life, and people have a life outside of work. And if they want to be fabulous and go partying and, and have a, you know, a wonderful time, then crack on. That is— that is part of their rest and recovery to come back and work for you and do their, their best work. Um, so I think there's a— there is a segregation here, and And in terms of, like you say, the reputation of the company, what is it that you're complaining about? What, what was the turn of phrase there? Some interesting photographs.

Al ElliottHave a look. A colorful social media presence. She shares details about partying and dating life, including some rather questionable photos. Now, to be fair, if those questionable photos were perhaps like, um, illegal or drug-taking or something like that, fair enough. Absolutely. But if it's just someone who's just wearing whatever they want to wear at at a do, whatever you want to be, um, doing whatever they want to do. I'd say mind your fucking business is what I'd say, but carry on.

Leanne ElliottExactly that. It sounds like we're judging it, uh, well, it's all right. And let's be honest, it sounds like we're judging a young woman who is presenting herself confidently to the world, and one of your clients has beef with that. Um, this is just a really icky societal norm that is really outdated, that women can't express themselves in ways that they want to at the risk of damaging the man's reputation because that reflects on you somehow, that I am empowered by my sensuality and sexuality as a woman. Um, like I said, if it's, if it's illegal, if it's questionable, if it's unethical behavior, then of course, absolutely. But then also, have you got a social media policy? Because if you don't, there's nothing you can really say at this point apart from start to create a social media policy in consultation with your people and start to then put some boundaries in place moving forward. If you do have a social media policy, then go back to that and see what that says and see if there has been any breach. Has anyone actually made a formal complaint? Because there's a difference between some pervy dude going up to just see such and such on Instagram or actually making a formal complaint about unprofessional behavior. This is all conjecture and conjecture and I think discrimination— it sounds discrimination at this point, you know what I mean? It just sounds judgy. It sounds judgy. Um, so assuming that nothing that this person is doing is illegal, unethical, directly mentioning or tagging your company in content they're creating outside of the workplace, not during work time, very little you can do about it. And if you don't have a social media policy Naff all you can do about it.

Al ElliottNaff all. I've heard that for 20 years.

Leanne ElliottI was gonna get— I got— I had a chat with a listener the other day and they said they didn't like it when I sweared, so I'm trying really hard. Um, so yeah, that sums it up really. If you are interested in how to, um, create a social media policy, just Google it. CIPD usually has some, some good recommendations on that, various different HR support Websites will do as well. Ask ChatGPT, they'll probably have a fair good idea as well. Um, but that'd be my thought. If it's not directly impacting your company, um, then mind your business.

Al ElliottYeah. As a boss, if it doesn't actually say this person owns it, I don't think owns the company, but certainly they've got, um, they've got prominent names. Yeah, it just doesn't necessarily say, but they own it. But it sounds like they're very invested, so perhaps there's an element of jealousy there.

Leanne ElliottYeah. Or also, do you know what, if If you, if you maybe go to this person and go, do you know what, Creepy Clive from XBC organization is perving at your Instagram, you might want to just block him. Problem fixed.

Al ElliottThere you go. There you go. Exactly. Great work, Lee. Great work as always. Thank you very, very much.

Leanne ElliottI should also say, if you want to learn more about dress code and policy, you should listen on Thursday. We've got a fabulous guest coming up.

Al ElliottYes, you should. Nice, nice. Good, good, good. I like that. Nice jump ahead promo. I like it. So yeah, it's Thursday, we've got a stylist, which is, uh, um, and I think I've dug out a jacket to put on, so I'm gonna be fancy. So if you don't watch on YouTube, check it out on Thursday. I'll be looking— what do the kids say? Fly?

Leanne ElliottFly.

Al ElliottFresh to death. No, that's, that's what millennials say. Anyway, if you have a question you'd like me to put to Leanne, then check the show notes for more details. We're back next Tuesday with another edition of This Week in Work, and of course, this and everything Thursday we bring you— well, not every— yeah, we do actually every Thursday. There's a reason why I'm saying that. You'll find out near Christmas. We bring you a great interview with cool guests who have real stories about building amazing workplace cultures.

Leanne ElliottAnd as we've mentioned, this Thursday we have got a real lifestyle guru who's going to talk us through all the dos and don'ts around dressing stylishly for the office and indeed maybe out of it. Until then, make sure you've subscribed to the show on whatever platform you get your podcasts. It really is the best way to support the show and enable us to bring you even more content. Um, but if you really want to go the extra mile in terms of supporting us, one, consider leaving a review. That would be delicious. And second, what about posting on LinkedIn about how much you enjoyed this episode?

Al ElliottMm, that would be fabulous.

Leanne ElliottYeah, check in the show notes. Um, all the details are in there, including my email address. Feel free to send me any questions that you might have. Um, I personally answer every single one of them. And if you too have a complaint about my language, um, yeah, send it in.

Al ElliottI can't believe you got shouted at.

Leanne ElliottNo.

Al ElliottAll right, so don't swear, Leanne. Say goodbye.

Leanne ElliottGoodbye.

Al ElliottBye for now. See you soon.

Leanne ElliottWelcome back.

Al ElliottAs regular listeners, we'll just do that again because you tongue-clicked. Sorry, you're a clicky one today, aren't you?

Leanne ElliottWelcome back.

Al ElliottAs regular listeners will now know, So I told you I was giddy. I haven't had whiskey at all today. Carry on, Leanne. You were saying welcome back.

Leanne ElliottIs that good background?

Al ElliottYeah, he's in Costa Rica.

Leanne ElliottOh God.

Al ElliottHe's on the— I hope Rob listens to the outtakes of this because that's going in. He's on his terrace with the jungle behind him. It's ridiculous.

Leanne ElliottRob's Canadian. He'll know that it's said with love. Still.