Episode 14 · 29 November 2022 · 1:01:05
How Not to Be a Psychopath with Expert Sandy Mckenzie
Featuring Sandy McKenzie
How Not to Be a Psychopath with Expert Sandy Mckenzie
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Introduction and why leaders should care about psychometrics
What is the HDS and how is it different?
The 'dark side' vs. the Hogan Development Survey
Derailment: Boris, Trump, and positive examples
interview#derailment#leadership#examples
The 11 scales of the HDS explained
interview#hds#scales#psychometrics
Scale 1: Excitable
interview#hds#excitable#emotional
Scale 2: Reserved
interview#hds#reserved#personality
Scale 3: Mischievous
interview#hds#mischievous#bold
Scale 4: Colourful
interview#hds#colourful#personality
The Elon Musk case
interview#elon musk#leadership#case study
Coaching the high-HDS leader
interview#coaching#hds#leadership
Is Elon Musk a psychopath or sociopath?
interview#elon musk#psychopath#sociopath
Show notes
How Not to Be a Psychopath — with Sandy McKenzie
Guest: Sandy McKenzie — Managing Partner at Amrop UK, Executive Search & Human Capital Advisory firm, and fully qualified practitioner for Hogan Development Surveys.
Elon Musk, Boris Johnson, Donald Trump — what do these leaders have in common? They all score high on the Hogan Development Survey (HDS), the tool that measures the "dark side" of personality.
Sandy joins Al and Leanne to unpack what the HDS really tells us about leaders — and why a high score doesn't have to mean disaster. They explore the fine line between bold and reckless, why some derailers are actually assets, and how understanding your dark side might be the key to not being a psychopath at work.
Top 3 Takeaways
The HDS isn't about ruling people out. High-risk scores don't mean someone is broken — they mean they need awareness, coaching, and the right environment to channel those traits productively.
Derailers can be assets. The same traits that make a leader difficult — boldness, risk-taking, intensity — are often what make them successful. The goal isn't to eliminate these traits; it's to manage them.
Context is everything. A leader's environment and triggers matter as much as their personality profile. Understanding what sets off the dark side is the first step to preventing derailment.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Sandy McKenzieNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Sandy McKenzieWe need the Elon Musk high HDS people, you know, in our world.
Leanne ElliottHello, and welcome back to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, where we delve into the complex world of people and culture and try and make sense of it all. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, and I am a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd welcome back.
Al ElliottHello.
Leanne ElliottHi.
Al ElliottSo if you're a regular listener, or you've listened to the last 2 episodes, you realize we've been talking a lot about Twitter and the Twitter layoffs. Now, what's, what's What was interesting is we spoke in over those last 2 episodes to 3 experts, and they made some really interesting observations on Elon's psychology and behaviors.
Leanne ElliottAnd how would you rate Elon Musk's empathy in his approach? If there was a zero. So a lack of empathy. Does— do you associate that with anything, Al?
Al ElliottWell, obviously, being married to a psychologist, which is sitting to my right, Then I would say something like a sociopath or a psychopath. Like, I'm made to think of Wolf of Wall Street guy or Jeff Bezos or someone who's just very single-minded and probably, yeah, doesn't have much empathy.
Leanne ElliottTo put it simply, I guess sociopaths are known more for being hotheads. So they lack remorse. Guilt and empathy can be present in some cases. Whereas in contrast, psychopaths are known for being more cold-hearted and tend to have a complete lack of guilt remorse. Or empathy. They don't tend to feel emotion. So with that, they tend to be a bit more manipulative, narcissistic, and typically very charming, which is often why they're usually quite successful people and will maintain what looks like a normal life. And of course, popular culture would lead us to believe that psychopaths and sociopaths are violent. Not all psychopaths and sociopaths are violent, and not all violent people are psychopaths. Psychopaths or sociopaths, um, the prevalence is actually only about 1% of the population.
Al ElliottIt's interesting you say 1% because that, that's a small amount but still quite a large amount. If the average person's got, say, 500 Facebook friends or they're followed on Twitter by 1,000 people, that means like 5 or 10 of the people who follow them are sociopaths or psychopaths.
Leanne ElliottQuite possibly. And I think it is, you know, something that we, we definitely do, do see in, in, in the business world as well. This this conversation are, are some very successful business leaders bordering on psychopaths. And this is where Elon Musk comes in. We're not going to dedicate another whole episode to him, but we will be talking about or using Elon as an example because he has given us just some very recent behaviors to, to reflect on. But absolutely similar to the experts, you know, my psychology spidey sense started working, you know, looking at Elon's management of the Twitter layoffs and his subsequent behaviors, um, and just, you know, the relationship between creativity, intelligence, intelligence and mental illness, which is well documented, and particularly the connection between exceptional ability and psychopathology. And I think most people will actually, when they start to think about it, will recognize this connection. I think this term genius is particularly associated with mental illness. As far back as Aristotle, there's no great genius without a mixture of madness, was something that he said. And of course, one of the most famous examples, John Nash and his diagnosis as a schizophrenic.
Al ElliottJohn Nash is the guy from A Beautiful Mind.
Leanne ElliottYeah, he is.
Al ElliottYeah. That's the film. If you've not seen it, it is an incredible film. Uh, Russell Crowe, I think, plays, plays the character. But he, as you said, he struggled with paranoid schizophrenia. Um, and then he won the Nobel Peace Prize. But according to the film, and I don't know how true to life this is, you know, he still sees people, he still hears people, he's still got lots of characters in his life who are still talking, uh, talking to him. I seem to remember then in your master's you did— your thesis was on something like this.
Leanne ElliottIt was. It was on the relationship between dark side personality personality traits and work performance. So to give you a bit of background, late '90s, early noughties, researchers really started to, I guess, reignite the view that normal and abnormal personality are basically extensions of each other. Abnormal personality meaning a personality disorder, and that personality disorders are simply extreme forms of normal behavior. So on the continuum, I think we've talked about this before on the podcast about personality on being trait-based on a continuum. So because of that research linking personality and job started to venture into what we call subclinical measures of psychopathology, or a catchier term, the dark side of personality. So yeah, it was the Hogan Development Survey that I used in my thesis. Hogan and Hogan, amazing psychologists and researchers, they were real pioneers in both the research and practice of dark side personality. It started because in the late '90s, they saw a correlation or a relationship between certain scores on the profile and problem managers.
Al ElliottWhen you say profile, was this— what do you mean by profile?
Leanne ElliottSo profile was an inventory. Um, it was actually used by clinical psychologists at the time to measure personality disorders.
Al ElliottSo profile is like PR, it's like an acronym? No acronym or something, is it?
Leanne ElliottYeah, so P-R-O-F-I-L-E.
Al ElliottGotcha.
Leanne ElliottTools, a profile. Yeah. Um, so yeah, so they, they were, they were using this to, in their research, and found this relationship between scores on, on this profile tool and problem managers. And that's where the idea for the Hogan Development Survey came from. So it's a— whereas the Profile is a clinical inventory, the Hogan Development Survey is a non-clinical inventory that's basically used to assess behaviours that adversely affect performance or reputation of people at work, and also as a tool that then could be used for professional development and coaching. So because of that, they wanted to create a non- clinical tool based on clinical conditions, the Hogan Development Survey, or the HDS just for ease, was developed using the DSM descriptions of personality disorders. If you're a regular listener, you'll remember the DSM from our imposter syndrome episode. It's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Catchy. But basically what clinicians use to diagnose psychological disorders. So the 11 scales on the HDS inventory. Each one is linked to a personality disorder on the DSM.
Al ElliottWe have got an expert guest on today, a lad called Sandy Mckenzie, who knows plenty about Hogan and how to interpret the results.
Sandy McKenzieSo I'm a managing partner for a global talent organization called Amroth. We're an organization founded back in 1977, over 1,000 employees, 55 locations around the world.
Al ElliottSo as you've heard, Sandy is basically a seasoned practitioner. in the Hogan Development Survey. And he helps executive leadership teams to better understand their behaviors when they want to have high-performing teams and sustainable success. And this is both obviously from an individual level to the organizational level. He also is an executive leadership coach, an expert in the Hogan psychometrics, and you're going to hear, a really interesting guy. So the first thing we asked him, in fact, what was the first thing we asked him, Leah?
Leanne ElliottI think the first question is, quite rightly, why should leaders and organizations really care about psychometrics? And what are the benefits of using them to assess and understand leadership behavior. So this is what Sandy had to say on that.
Sandy McKenzieBut it's trying to recognize and understand and extract and develop the behaviors that make individuals and organizations successful. We have a slightly corny slogan that says, if we can make an individual happy, we can make a team happy, which means we can make an organization happy. And if we can combine all of that, it equals high performance. And a lot of that captures behaviors and wellbeing and sort of really interesting aspects like that. And it's an area that people don't like to talk about often. You know, very strong-willed senior executives don't want to necessarily be vulnerable or talk about behaviors or things that they've done right or wrong. Sometimes it's easier just to fire and hire.
Leanne ElliottI think Sandy makes a really good point there, and I think it is, you know, your behaviours as a leader do impact other people, and that can be for good and for worse. So really using these types of psychometrics is about making sure that the behaviours of leaders within the business are constructive rather than destructive. And without examining these behaviours, they're just going to repeat themselves.
Al ElliottSo we asked Sandy a little bit more about the HDS and his take on what it is and why it offers a unique perspective on leadership personality and behavior. And this is what he said.
Sandy McKenzieMost assessment tools are fairly well aligned. So the Hogan Personality Inventory tool is similar to others in terms of the outputs. They're essentially all based around the Big 5 personality traits of neuroticism, extroversion, agreeableness, conscientiousness, and openness. The unique factor with Hogan is none of the other assessment tool platforms provide the dark side, and this is the Hogan Development Survey.
Al ElliottSo he's mentioned there these 5 traits. Now, am I saying this right? 5 personality traits?
Leanne ElliottYeah, the Big 5 personality traits. Um, so yeah, I guess they just unpack a little bit of the theory behind this. So personality research and practice has typically been divided into normal, And abnormal, and abnormal referring to a clinical personality disorder. And the dominant theory in normal, or what is called bright side personality research, um, and practice as well, is the Big 5. Extraversion, so that's being gregarious, assertive, excitement-seeking. The second is agreeableness, um, so this is being straightforward, trusting, or altruistic. Conscientiousness, So very much about being self-disciplined, dutiful, very achievement-focused. Then we have neuroticism. That's often defined by anxiety, vulnerability, impulsiveness. And then finally, openness to experiencing feelings, ideas, actions, or values. So these are the Big 5 personality traits, or the Big 5 model, you might see it referred to as well. And of course, while no theory is without criticism, the Big 5 is actually one of the most comprehensive and widely accepted theories of personality.
Al ElliottSo what we're saying, if I've got this right, is that those 5 personality traits, they refer to you whether you're bright side or dark side. It's not a question of, oh, there's another 5 for dark side. Those are the 5 that people get measured against.
Leanne ElliottNot quite. So the, the Big 5 is the dominant theory in bright side personality. But what we're saying is that Dark side personality traits are just an extension of these, um, or personality disorders are an extreme form of normal behavior. So when the Hogan Development Survey, or the HDS, was developed, um, using the DSM descriptions of personality disorders, um, as I mentioned before, each one, uh, was linked— each scale on the Hogan Development Survey was linked to a personality disorder in the HDS. So for example, The HDS has a scale called mischievous. When scored highly, that describes someone as risk-taking, testing their limits, lots about innovation perhaps. But if behaviour becomes destructive, people can become manipulative, deceitful, exploitative, and those traits in themselves correspond with the antisocial personality disorder on the DSM. That's characterized by lawbreaking, lying, impulsivity, and a lack of remorse. So there is, you can kind of see that this extension of going from, you know, risk-taking, testing limits, then being manipulative, deceitful, to then being lawbreaking, lying. This is kind of how these traits manifest over that continuum.
Al ElliottSo if we're talking about the antisocial personality disorder, which is part of this DSM, Then is that what you would describe someone who's a psychopath?
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly. Psychopaths, sociopaths as well, are considered to have a severe form of antisocial personality disorder. I think when you just look back at some of those characteristics there, it does make you question Elon Musk's psychopathology. Does he have a serious mental disorder? Is he a psychopath? Which is why we wanted to speak to Sandy, who is our guest, as Al said, behind the HDS. We just start to explore Elon's psychology and personality through this lens of dark side. I asked Sandy to profile Elon Musk on the HDS based on what we know about his upbringing, his career, his recent behaviors, and the results were really, really interesting. But before we dive in, If you want to follow along, we are going to post the mock HDS that Sandy produced for us on our socials. So if you want that visual to follow along, then that's useful to have. Before we do, I guess as well, one big caveat with this. We're not saying that anyone who scores highly on the HDS is going to have a personality disorder. That's not how this works. In fact, Hogan makes a really— or Hogan Assessment Systems, who are the creators of the HDS, make a really important distinction that under certain circumstances, these traits may actually be strengths. It's more that under pressure or under stress, they can become counterproductive. Sandy explains a bit more.
Sandy McKenzieI actually tend to call it more the Hogan Development Survey than the dark side, because I think the dark side has connotations of destruction and evil and bad. And in many ways, what the Hogan Development Survey is, is it's actually an indicator of people's strengths. But it's those strengths that at times of significant levels of pressure, frustration, emotional imbalance, which could be anything, it could do as simple as just having a bad night's sleep.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Sandy McKenzieThrough to things that are going on in your private life, but the sorts of things that will just create blind spots in somebody's normative sort of psychological state that becomes the derailleur, in essence, to themselves, to their team, to their career, to the organization that they might work with. And it starts with an individual, but it—
Al ElliottYeah.
Sandy McKenzieIt travels out and it relates to teams as well, where you end up with unifying HDS scale scores, in essence, which kind of make the problems and the challenges associated with the HDS that much more enormous. And that's when you get cultures forming within businesses that can be poisonous in some cases.
Al ElliottSo what we're saying here, if I've understood it, is that There is kind of a fine line behind or between the strengths and the weaknesses. And at times of like massive stress or challenge, we've talked about Twitter and Musk, then our biggest assets can suddenly become the traits that are going to derail us and in some extreme circumstances could potentially like destroy us.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. And I think it's why the HDS is such an interesting and powerful tool because it does work to identify these strengths, but also the associated risks ahead of time. And then through follow-up coaching, leaders can build that self-awareness to make sure that they remain strengths, and they remain strengths that enable performance. The dark side is not necessarily bad, and in fact, in some cases, it really could actually provide the competitive advantage that a business needs. So yeah, let's go Let's go back to Sandy and hear some more on that.
Sandy McKenzieIn our business, we're not looking to rule somebody out because they've got a high-risk score. In some ways, that's a good thing. It's a demonstration that when the chips are down and you need an extra boost of energy and extroversion to kind of move into 5th, 6th, and 7th gear to really change the status quo, you're going to get that from somebody who's scoring as a high risk. So, you know, the best leaders in the world are plastered in high-risk scores. But, you know, what makes them great, what makes them fantastic is their EQ. It's the ability to harness those dark side or development traits as opposed to let them roll out with complete disregard. And, you know, that's probably linked into some of the challenges with Elon Musk, Now, Sandy mentions the term EQ there.
Al ElliottI know that it's become a lot more popular and people know what it is, but just in case someone's listening and thinking, I don't know what EQ is, could you maybe define that for some—
Sandy McKenziefor us?
Leanne ElliottOf course. So EQ, um, also known as emotional intelligence, um, so EQ is the ability to perceive, interpret, control, evaluate, use our emotions, um, both in terms of to, to communicate with others but also to relate to others effectively. Some experts actually suggest that emotional intelligence is now more important than IQ for success in work and life, given the VUCA world that we're living in. VUCA, another term for another day, sorry. But what Sandy is basically saying here is that EQ has the potential to moderate these dark side personality traits. Simply, simple case being, if we're better to understand and perceive and interpret the emotions, not only our emotions, but the emotions that trigger these destructive behaviours, then we're going to be more likely to moderate them and then reduce the risk of them impacting us, our performance, and also that of our teams.
Al ElliottThat all makes sense. So what happens when we do derail?
Sandy McKenzieIf, if I, on the one hand, talk about somebody like, you know, Boris Johnson or Donald Trump, So these are individuals who are likely to have, you know, very, very high-risk scores around 3 or 4 of their scales that are linked to being charming and interesting, to being confident and assertive, to being outgoing and socially skilled. There is no way they would have got to where they've got to if it wasn't for the positive effects and the depth and high-risk nature of, of their scores in that respect. But of course, what happens over time, and particularly as politicians, is you start to make promises to the people that have elected you. And when those promises then unfold and they start to not become true or they don't happen, people will start to lose faith or lose interest, and they start to point the finger and say, liar, you said you were going to do this. And now you're not. So, you know, Boris Johnson making, you know, examples of manifestos which, you know, just haven't, haven't happened, or, you know, being on television and making promises of what he, you know, is going to do, and then it just doesn't happen, you know. So that's a great example of mischievous, charming, and interesting, selling to the crowd, drawing them in. And then on the flip side, when it becomes a strength overused, you're ending up with risk-taking. Limit testing, untrustworthy, self-promoting, dramatic, attention-seeking. These are the examples of when those strengths become derailers. I was trying to think of a positive example in the extreme, somebody that everybody could relate to, and I was kind of thinking about Neil Armstrong. So Neil Armstrong went to the moon. So when it comes to his appetite for risk, You know, where do we think he was in appetite to the risk? I mean, he went to the moon. It's pretty high. So, you know, you're going to see some high HDS scores in his scoring scales. But of course, here, and NASA, I'm sure, tests this to the nth degree, high EQ. So this is an example of somebody who, yes, has the risk appetite and probably the ability to lean into his strengths as high risks. But fundamentally has the EQ to be able to manage those risks. Imagine how your emotions are feeling strapped to a rocket about to blast out into space and being able to keep a hold on yourself and manage that. So that's a great example of where you are looking at maybe the scales of, you know, the ability to deal with those very, very difficult decisions, but actually manage that situation. And that's a great example, I think, of probably, you know, EQ, self-awareness, and self-management of your HDS scores.
Leanne ElliottSome great examples there from Sandy. I love that he gave us a positive example there as well. But I think Boris Johnson is such a good example. As I was listening to Sandy then, I was thinking about when he made quite a few visits to Ukraine during the war, when there was, there was like massive opposition to him even being Prime Minister in the UK. So that kind of attention-seeking behavior, that grandiosity, it's, yeah, it's a great example. So let's then, let's dive into Elon Musk. Let's look at the profile that Sandy has put together for us. As I've said, a copy will be available on our socials, Truth, Lies and Work, on Instagram and everywhere else. We'll pop it on our LinkedIn as well and leave a link in the show notes. Once you've got that in front of you, here's Sandy to talk us through what we're looking at.
Sandy McKenzieThe HDS is basically made up of 11 scales, each of those scales giving us insight into the personality of the individual that we're looking for, and it's scored on a scale of 0 to 100. And effectively, anything that is above 90 in that score is a high-risk derailleur. So it's a high risk, it's a strength, but it's a high-risk derailleur. Anything between 70 and 90 is a medium-risk derailleur. And in the main, what we're really looking for and talking about are the high-risk.
Al ElliottSo you're mentioning that, or Sandy's mentioning there, this high-risk I wonder if you could just clarify that a little bit for us and just say, what does high risk actually mean?
Leanne ElliottSo leaders are classified as high risk because they're prone to these frequent and quite intense maladaptive behaviours. So for highly visible leaders that have lots of responsibility, job stress may become more frequent, and therefore this self-monitoring of these less effective behaviors, um, not, not kept in check. So that's what it means to, to be high risk.
Al ElliottAnd a lot of what Sandy and you are both saying is this derail. So can you give us an example of, or what derailing actually means in practical terms?
Leanne ElliottUm, so in this context, derail means to behave in a way that is basically counterproductive or destructive to our reputation, um, and could ultimately Do significant damage. So to give you a very current real-world example and our case study for today, Elon Musk. Yes, all of his recent questionable actions around the layoffs have been directed at Twitter, but that has also damaged his reputation, which is reflected in the massive drops in stock prices we've seen at Tesla.
Al ElliottSo if I've got this right then, so if we talk about someone who already is showing dark side personality traits, Um, and they start— they don't have the EQ necessarily to rein it back in, and something happens that starts to take— they get excited and, and they come off the rails. Then would that be like Trump when he incited those riots, in that he's got such an ability to lead a group of people, whether he's right or wrong or whatever you believe in, but he's got a great way to lead people, but that just went too far?
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. It's a really good example, and it is this This risk-taking behavior, this testing of the limits, and just this whole snowball that we saw with Trump. He didn't start his presidency by supposedly inciting riots, but that is how he ended it. I think that's where I found the conversations around Boris Johnson at the time, the whole Partygate scandal. It's like, what's the big deal? He had a glass of wine with somebody.
Sandy McKenzieYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd it's like, yes, but what we're starting to see is somebody who is starting to take more risk-taking behaviors, starting to engage in lawbreaking, start to see themselves as above the law. So yeah, having a drink against COVID regulations is perhaps just the kind of the first, you know, the first tip, um, that, that could happen for it to be much more destructive, which is why quite rightly his behavior was taken very, very seriously.
Sandy McKenzieYeah.
Leanne ElliottObviously. So as I've said, if you score above 90 on the HDS, this is seen as a high risk. Typically, as Sandy said, great leaders are peppered in high-risk scores, typically between 1 and 3. What's interesting, as you would have seen, Sandy estimates that Elon has 7 high-risk scores. Let's find out more.
Sandy McKenzieFirst of all, we're looking at a scale called excitable. It's looking at the individual's emotional control, particularly in moments where they get excited about projects and people. It's about being enthusiastic, in essence, when it's kind of been kept at a sort of a mid-range about people and projects. With Elon, inevitably, we're talking about somebody who's off the chart, 100.
Al ElliottYeah.
Sandy McKenzieIn terms of his scale. So this is somebody who invests huge amounts of energy and enthusiasm into anything that he's doing, ventures, Tesla, even with Twitter now and others. It's a real all-or-nothing approach. And the derailer is that whilst you could be incredibly positive in one moment, you can very quickly become very disappointed in people and projects on the other. And, you know, the volatility and unpredictability that you can see in that is going to be somebody who is, on the one hand, driving positively somebody who, let's say, is in charge of one of his Tesla projects. And then a week later, he's decided to fire them. You know, the statistics are indicating that the project was sort of behind behind time or something like that. And he's just lent into that sort of energy score, which people feed off, and suddenly it becomes volatility and crash, bang, sharp decision, get rid, start again, let's get somebody new in, complete disappointment or failure. And you see it a lot in entrepreneurs as well, where they start, fail, start, fail, start, fail, until eventually something lands and is the big sort of dream thing that they sell or whatever that they do with it. So, It's quite a common trait that you will tend to see in neurodiverse people, but also in entrepreneurs. Skeptical is the second. It's to do with social insightfulness, the surroundings that you're seeing. Other people might call it wisdom, for example, but it's really sort of being able to read the social cues and situation around you. And I think this is probably an area linked to the Asperger's diagnosis and also what you mentioned earlier about just being black and white. You know, he clearly has a problem with seeing and understanding social cues. I think he's aware of it, and he's obviously read a lot, and he's tried to work on it, you know, through his childhood and teenage years and even up to now. But, you know, that's something which isn't going away, and it's probably something which is a major challenge for him. So I've scored him very low. on this because, you know, what we're saying is, is that he doesn't have that social insightfulness. He doesn't have that ability to, to kind of see what's going on around him. Uh, in a media analysis, we would be picking that up and sort of saying, look, a development area here is you need to read the room a little bit more, or you need to try and work out how to engage and understand people's intentions and be a bit more insightful. And, you know, in terms of how you're perceiving and picking up situations around you.
Al ElliottJust a quick one. Sandy mentioned neurodiversity. Now I know that that seems to be— I've seen a lot more articles about that in the last couple of years than I ever did before. I'm not 100% sure I understand exactly what neurodiversity is. What do psychologists define it as?
Leanne ElliottSo you're right, neurodiversity is brilliantly being talked about a lot more, but neurodiversity is basically a word that is used to explain the unique ways that people's brains work, right? So everyone's brain will develop similarly, but no 2 brains function the same. We even see that, you know, in identical twins, they don't function exactly the same. Being neurodivergent means that you have a brain that works differently from the average or neurotypical person. So for example, perceptual reasoning, verbal reasoning, processing speed, working memory, people who are neurodiverse operate literally and figuratively on a different level, you know, on this potentially genius level within these particular ways of thinking. Um, it's what, 15 to 20% of the population, um, are neurodiverse. Um, and it can include any condition that affects some but not all thinking skills. So commonly, uh, dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADD, ADHD, ADHD, autism, and Asperger's are all examples of neurodiversity. It was actually in May last year, May 2021, Elon Musk was on Saturday Night Live and actually shared that he has Asperger's syndrome. Asperger's is basically a form of autism, but what distinguishes it and why it's classed as its own separate syndrome is that people with Asperger's typically have very strong language skills and very strong intellectual ability, usually very high IQ. So yeah, it's associated in terms of behaviours with very, very good focus, lots of persistence, an incredible aptitude for recognising patterns, and also having a high attention to detail. As I mentioned, neurodiversity does come with unique challenges as well. For somebody with Asperger's, they can have difficulty with social interactions. They may have more restricted interests and just find it difficult, you know, that give and take of a conversation. But yeah, I mean, I think the best person to sum up is Elon himself. He actually said of his Asperger's, to quote, I know sometimes I say or post strange things, but that's just how my brain works. To anyone who's been offended, I just want to say I reinvented electric cars, I'm sending people to Mars in a rocket ship. Did you think I was going to be a chill, normal dude?
Al ElliottLove it, love it. So now we know much more about interpreting the results of the HDS. Um, let's go back to Sandy and find out how Elon's environment might have influenced his behavior.
Sandy McKenzieUm, the 3rd score is reserved. Um, so again, a bit like excitable, I've scored this 100, like nothing in between. And I think the thing about reserved, it's an interesting one. And I think I went with this because it links back to probably his childhood where, you know, he wasn't a popular kid. He was bullied. You know, he was bullied for being different. And I think he probably built up a very independent resilience internally, which was probably just not to trust anybody, quite frankly, other than himself. And so I think, I think Whilst we see a very extroverted individual based on Twitter and because he's sort of so widely recognized, I think he's a very vulnerable and very reserved individual, in fact, internally. And the sort of the derailleur that's associated with that is that that can lend towards becoming very socially withdrawn, very tough.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Sandy McKenzieAnd actually uncommunicative when it becomes a derailer. When it's sort of a positive, it's about being very independent, very objective, not needing a lot around you to make hay of the situation and surroundings. But I think definitely there's a sort of a reserved introvert as well that exists potentially with him. And I think that again is perhaps That's why we see such massive sort of swings in his behavior patterns as well, probably built up through years and years of defense mechanisms to sort of deal with what he had to deal with as a child. There's a cluster of scores now, which is bold, mischievous, colorful, imaginative. And this cluster represents behaviors at a macro level that we would say are moving against people. So these are the fight behaviors as opposed to the flight behaviors that you might typically recognize. And so the sort of quick run-through of what you'd expect from bold, mischievous, colorful, and imaginative, because I've scored all of these 100, he's off the chart. So this is about being confident and assertive. It's about being charming and interesting, outgoing and socially skilled, innovative and creative. And I think, you know, what he's achieved and what he does, I You know, I think we can see all of that in terms of what he's done. But this is the bit where the major derailers, um, you know, for me occur. The potential strength overused as a derailleur becomes entitled, arrogant, overestimates competence, risk-taking, limit testing, untrustworthy, attention-seeking, self-promoting, and dramatic, eccentric, impractical. and lacking in focus. These are the sort of words that are typically used to describe the Hogan derailleur at the very sort of top end. And they're all contextual, so you have to put them into sort of different situations and scenarios to kind of interpret the extremity of that. But I think with Elon, we're talking about extremity, and I'm trying not to swear, but I could probably add a few swear words in there to kind of accentuate some of those comments, but I'll try to avoid that. Um, but yeah, you know, this is a guy who moves against people. There's definitely some flight behaviors, which is that reserved and that excitable score. Um, but I think he, you know, he, he— that's where he's built up the defense mechanism. And, and what tends to happen is you see the, I'm gonna fight this situation for no reason, that, you know, for no reason at all, potentially.
Al ElliottYeah.
Sandy McKenzieYou know, there's a, there's There's a case to sue somebody, I'm going to sue them. Get the lawyers onto it. I don't care how much it costs. Do you know what? I don't even realize what the reason is. It's just my natural mechanism to fight, fight, fight.
Al ElliottSo this is really interesting. So once you look into each one of these scales, you can start to see how the scoring is matching up with the behavior we're seeing. And we're not picking on Elon Musk. It's just that he is most probably the most famous leader right now at the moment in November 2023. Um, so I'm intrigued. How, as a psychologist, are you going to sum this up? How did he measure up on what you think?
Leanne ElliottSo as I mentioned earlier, each of the scales on the HTS is related to a personality disorder on the DSM. We're not saying if you score highly— and I can't stress this enough— we're not saying if you score highly on the HTS you have a personality disorder. That's not the case. But if we're imagining personality traits as this continuum, then the dark side of personality is much closer to personality disorders than the bright side of personality. So I think what is a really useful comparison is to really demonstrate when these things derail to the point where they become real. I mean, really derail, like Elon Musk level derail. Then, you know, they might start to become clinical. And we can use— we can find some really interesting examples to kind of bring this all to life. So let's— as Sandy said, there's a few kind of a cluster of scales there. So let's just delve into kind of the psychopathology of those. So first, Sandy talked about BOLD, which is a scale on the HDS. So BOLD is related to narcissistic personality disorder on the DSM-5. So that's characterized by an inflated sense of self-importance, a lack of empathy, Need for constant attention, need for admiration. History is really littered with narcissists. They do make their mark in the world for good or bad. Adolf Hitler, Joan Crawford, as we've said, Donald Trump are examples of narcissists, just to name a few.
Al ElliottThey would score highly in bold.
Leanne ElliottThey would score highly on bold on the HDS, exactly. HDS scale that Sandy mentioned there is mischievous, so that's related to the antisocial personality disorder on the DSM-5. So antisocial personality disorder— repeated lawbreaking, impulsiveness, aggressiveness, potentially complete lack of remorse. As we've said, psychopaths, sociopaths are said to have an extreme form of antisocial personality disorder. So yeah, killers such as Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer thought to, to be afflicted with antisocial personality disorder. But as we've said, it's not just limited to killers. Al, have you heard of Kenneth Lee Lay?
Al ElliottI think he's the Enron guy.
Leanne ElliottYeah, he is.
Al ElliottSo if I remember, he was basically the CEO of Enron before it went bankrupt, and he was— if I think he was the highest paid CEO in America about a year before they went bankrupt. But When the company got in trouble, he was telling his employees to buy stock to prop the price of the stock up whilst he was getting rid of his own. So basically, his employees were buying the stock that he knew was gonna be worthless whilst he got out of his own position, which is obviously not a great thing for someone to do.
Leanne ElliottWhich is quite shocking, really, isn't it? But, but yeah, I think that is a really good example of that kind of callous disregard, not caring about You know, financial ruin of other people, no remorse over it at all. You know, they're, they're classic signs of antisocial personality disorder.
Al ElliottBrilliant. So that was mischievous, the second one?
Leanne ElliottYes, that was mischievous.
Al ElliottBrilliant.
Leanne ElliottSo the next one that we have, uh, the third scale in this cluster on the HDS is colourful, um, and this relates to something called histrionic personality disorder, or more commonly, dramatic personality disorder. Disorder. So yeah, exaggerated emotions, attention-seeking behaviors. Um, you know, usually people with histrionic personality disorder are characterized as flirty, seductive, charming, manipulative, impulsive, um, lively. Um, you've actually probably heard of histrionic personality disorder because Amber Heard was publicly diagnosed with it during her trial with her Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Sandy McKenzieAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.
Al ElliottAnd you're not going to say which. Fail. Host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Sandy McKenzieSeamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Sandy McKenzieWe've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Sandy McKenzieIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Sandy McKenzieI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
Sandy McKenzieDefinitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. So I think I've met a few of these. In fact, I went out with a girl in my 20s who threw my shoes out of a window, and she—
Leanne ElliottWhat did you do?
Al ElliottI don't want to get into that. But, but the fact is, yes, it's exactly that. Very flirtatious, very seductive, very charming. And it's not just, you know, female, the opposite sex, or whoever you're attracted to. Um, there's a lot of people I've worked in business who just come across as so, like, likable, but then you just end up like, you go along with them for a night out and you end up in jail or something as they head off on their, uh, on their private jet.
Leanne ElliottAnother story for another time, I think.
Al ElliottExactly. So this was colorful, the third one.
Leanne ElliottThat was great. Colourful. Yeah. Which is linked to histrionic or dramatic personality disorder. So the final scale that Sandy talks us through there on the HDS is imaginative, and that's related to schizotypal personality disorder. So people with this personality disorder are often described as odd, eccentric, might not have many close relationships, typically don't really understand how relationships form, or really have an appreciation of the impact of their behaviour on other people. I guess, you know, popular culture probably see them as the odd creative types. Some speculate that Vincent van Gogh, the artist, had this disorder. A fictional character discussed quite a lot in terms of schizotypal personality disorder is Willy Wonka.
Sandy McKenzieMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSomeone who has very unusual perceptions, bodily illusions, suspicious, paranoid, very odd eccentric behaviour and appearance as well, magical thinking, and potentially a lack of close friends, which is why I needed Charlie. Oh, so yeah, we'll come back to personality disorders. And his Oompa Loompas. That's true, he did have his Oompa Loompas. Different type of dynamic, that though. Was it friendship? Employees? I don't know. Um, tell us, what do you think? Uh, but yeah, we'll, we'll come back to personality disorders shortly. But first, let's hear about Elon's suspected score on the Diligence Scale of the HDS, which is related to obsessive compulsive disorder on the DSM.
Sandy McKenzieHe will nitpick to get something absolutely perfect and right, and if somebody else can't do it, I think he would probably end up jumping in himself and micromanaging the situation. Um, so I think his corporate politics in terms of how he respects board versus executive team versus, you know, N minus 1, for example, are probably terrible. He just doesn't think in a structured way about that or the impact of his He'll just plow through any structure, which is that sort of almost micromanagement tendency, which is founded on his desire to be a perfectionist in what he's doing. He's an innovator, a creator, and he wants it to be the very best product that it can. So I was feeling that actually he will move towards people like engineers or people that are able to aid and support him. in fulfilling his dream and have a very short fuse in terms of, you know, if they don't help him and he sees no further use to them, that's when you get the right chop, you're out of here. You know, we saw that with one of his engineers, I think it was Eric Froenhoefer, for instance, you know, that he just sort of got rid of very quickly and his laptop just shut off and he couldn't get back into it. And that was the signal to say he's been fired. For example.
Al ElliottNow, I read something, or in fact, it might have been an interview I saw with Elon a little while ago. And he said when he was building Tesla, he said that he was on the brink of bankruptcy for about 3 years. And he moved into the factory. And he said, his quote, well, I'm slightly misquoting here, I'm sure. But he said, I lived in that factory for 3 years, I slept on the floor. And so no, I know more about manufacturing than anyone in the world. Now, that just That kind of just sums up exactly what Sandy was just saying there. There's no doubting he's a visionary, and we also need people like this in the world to drive this innovation. But it's how this is done that is going to determine his sustained success, I think.
Sandy McKenzieWe need the Elon Musk high-HDS people, you know, in our world. You know, there is, there is, as much as there's a lot wrong in terms of how he has gone about doing what he has done, It comes from a place and an individual who just sees the world in a particular way, and he's driving innovation. What he's doing and what he believes in, rightly or wrongly, will do things for society, engineering, the economies of the world. It's how you do it. That's the thing. Because there are others that are, you know, with, you know, carry the same traits, but they seem to be able to do it very differently. You know, Mark Zuckerberg, um, you know, as a comparator, you know, probably carries some similar traits and, and probably through fame and fortune has developed stronger, you know, HDS scales from perhaps the, you know, the chap who was at university way back when, um, because of his position. And, and maybe that's given him strengths and powers and And beliefs that, you know, he now has that he didn't have before. But it's how you go about operating from one day to the next. He's had to do a similar thing at Meta in terms of the layoff of staff. But if you look at the way he's done it versus the Elon Musk approach, you can see based on some of the comments there that I've made where Musk has taken the derailleur to the extreme. I mean, he carried a sink into the headquarters in San Francisco just so that he could write a tweet that said, entering Twitter HQ, let that sink in. Ridiculous, right? This was on the 26th of October. I was reading Mark Zuckerberg's similar letter to employees that had so much more thought, caring. He had to do the same thing. It was done Similarly, but the sort of the how, if you like, was done with a lot more compassion and empathy potentially. And that may be that Mark is slightly different, but probably slightly more self-aware and/or recognizes it and has people around him that helps to control some of those derailers.
Leanne ElliottSo what we are saying is that leaders that score highly on the HDS are undeniably huge huge assets to their organization, but they are also high risk. So it's important that we understand what triggers leaders to derail.
Sandy McKenzieThe other aspect, final aspect, is that this isn't just about the individual and how they are and what they might need to do to change. It's also about the people or the team or organization that's interacting with that individual. You know, if we know what this individual is like, then maybe it's not always a negative, and what we think is a negative could actually be a positive. And therefore, what can I do to facilitate this individual and their HDS scale scores to get the best out of them? Am I the trigger? I could easily be the trigger if I know that somebody is you know, super highly processed and regulated, and I'm just a complete entrepreneur, you know, it's, you know, I'm potentially being the catalyst without knowing about it to that individual's HDS scale score. So what can I take away from that to kind of understand more about the individual and sort of create a more harmonious situation where they can lean into those strengths and gain higher performance from it?
Al ElliottSo if I've understood this right, then What we're talking about, this trigger, is the environment, is something that's happened, the people they work with. So if someone was advising Musk and they said, obviously in the SpaceX and the Tesla environment, everything is highly controlled, highly engineered, it's all based on, you know, a lot of it's based on software processes, et cetera, et cetera. And then Elon said to his coach, I'm thinking of going and buying Twitter, which is like 98% human, 2% code, then do you think that the coach might be saying, well, look, this is a triggering thing for you, this is what's really going to push you over the edge?
Leanne ElliottIt's interesting that you say that. Sandy had a similar thought.
Sandy McKenzieYeah, it's fascinating reading, but the timeline that dates back to around about the 5th of April when he was informed he was joining the board, and then on the 11th of April informed that he wasn't joining the board, but no explanation was being given. Now, who's beating up Parag Agrawal at the time as the CEO for effectively announcing to the world that he's joining and then he's not with no explanation? Elon Musk's derailers are now going supersonic in terms of his fight syndrome and the way he's been treated in that respect as a main shareholder. I'm going to take this company and I'm going to rip it up and you're going to get And, you know, the perspective of why he's done it has probably got lost along the way. And that's why what we've seen in the months after that, you know, has just been a series of lawsuits and backwards and forwards. And then this really random point where he decides to go, yeah, actually, I am going to buy it, you know, drop the lawsuit to do with, you know, scam accounts. I am going to buy it. And it's kind of like, you know, what was your MO here? Like, what, what, what was your goal?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Sandy McKenzieWhat was this all about, you know? And the chances are it's probably just because he was pissed off about how he was treated in the first instance, and he's got the money and the power and the influence, and he wants to demonstrate that, don't mess with me, I can, I can do what I want. And it could be as simple as that.
Leanne ElliottI think what's so interesting about what Sandy said there, you know, our last couple of episodes we've talked a lot about searching for a reason, what is motivating Elon Musk to behave in this way? You know, our experts on the Twitter episodes made it very clear that he didn't seem to have a plan, but maybe darkly this is his plan. His plan is to destroy Twitter.
Sandy McKenzieYeah, totally. I mean, um, it's a, you know, it's a power move. Um, he knows he's not going to be elected as the, you know, as president. Um, you know, how else can I control the world and get the world to see it how I see it. You know, it's in the absolute extreme. I think it's very difficult to understand what his strategy is. And I think even probably his closest confidants don't actually know because he is so unpredictable.
Al ElliottSo let's get back down from a $44 billion company to one that's perhaps a little smaller. So listener has got a, has got a company, an agency, Um, they may know that they've got high-risk people in their leadership team. So how can they develop or support those people so they don't become as destructive as someone like Musk or Bezos?
Leanne ElliottThe same way that, you know, leaders are supported in other areas of their development. It's about assessing and then coaching. It always comes back to building self-awareness, you know, understanding yourself, understanding your triggers, understanding your behaviors. And developing effective coping mechanisms are ultimately going to make sure that you maintain your status as an effective and high-performing leader.
Sandy McKenzieI think the coaching aspect would be about helping him to gain perspective on situations in order to be able to recognize what the triggers are, and then to be able to try and learn behavior to mitigate those. And I would say, you know, one of the key things for somebody like that is before you decide to tweet, run that past your lawyer. And that's why he'll continue to derail. I mean, I think, you know, the question is, what would the advice be? And you can give advice, but the willingness of the individual to take that on board is another thing. Um, but, you know, I think if it was in a development situation, you know, with somebody who was presenting with those scores, not an Elon Musk, But they happen to have those scores. I think it would be about developing that individual's EQ, working with an executive coach in order to help bring perspective and bring light to situations in a very calm and stable environment that understands the language that that individual prefers to speak in so that they can interpret where you're trying to get to in terms of setting the goals, being relatively interventionalist, I think, and Transformative in terms of the style of the individual, perhaps also working with some of their team members as well, in order to help others recognize, you know, well, what are the triggers? That could be through other, you know, it might not just be that individual, it could be the team, it could be the environment, and what could be done to look at the wider context of that situation to make that individual more comfortable. But yeah, through the coaching mechanism particularly, there's lots of tools, as you and I both know, Uh, from, from where we met that can be used to help, you know, develop that individual. That's probably the first step. It's just the acceptance that says, actually, I could benefit from an independent, neutral third party and, and listen to what they've got to say to, to help me.
Leanne ElliottAs a psychologist, as a leadership coach myself, I really love behavior-based tools because of exactly what Sandy said there. In terms of professional development, sometimes if we use personality-based tools, they can be a bit restrictive because someone might say, oh, I'm an INTP, what do you want me to do about it? I'm a blue. Whereas if we look at it through the lens of behavior, personality might not change much over time, but behaviors can be modified, they can be changed, and they can be chosen. That's the amazing power of coaching, helping people to, to explore, understand their behaviors, and also modify and change their behaviors.
Al ElliottSo this goes back to— we looked at Myers-Briggs, Leanne's just alluded to with her IJBN, whatever it is.
Sandy McKenzieABCD.
Al ElliottAnd we looked at that a few episodes ago. And the— it's all about whether it's brilliant or bullshit. And the whole point that Leanne was saying about Myers-Briggs, if I remember, was that a personality-based inventory. In other words, it's the same as saying, I am a Taurus, and therefore I'm going to do this. Whereas what we're talking about here is actually measuring the behavior and using that as an indicator.
Leanne ElliottWell, it's measuring both. It's measuring personality, it's measuring the dark side of personality, but through the lens of how does this translate into behaviors, and how did we— how can we modify these so we don't derail. It's connecting personality with behavior. And yeah, behaviors are a much more effective tool in terms of leadership development than personality can hope to be. So with all that in mind, what did Sandy conclude about Elon Musk, and what does he predict for his future given his suspected HDS scores?
Sandy McKenzieYeah, I mean, I think, you know, the future is You know, where the power and the actions of the man, which still has a lot of support, a lot of following, you know, there's still lots of positives in what he's doing around electric vehicles and so on and so forth. But what happens when that turns to fear?
Leanne ElliottRight.
Sandy McKenzieYou know, when we look at the future and, you know, Third World Wars and things that are created by, you know, let's say nuclear What else are we looking at in the future when it comes to the power that's being created through things like a social media platform and actually where that sort of dictator-led leadership style then turns to fear? And maybe if I was trying to predict the future and think about the derailleur aspect, That's certainly something that could be the case, and that will be where it will be his downfall. Because that's where, regardless of how good a Tesla might be, I'm not buying one. I'd rather go and get a Honda or a Tesla or whatever it might be, or a Peugeot, whatever it might be. But it will become around not the quality of the vehicle, it'll become around hate of the man or fear of the man. And that's potentially how his derailers might happen. There is a potential positive development side of that, which is he'll keep doing what he's doing. He's got the money, the finances, the resources. He's got the ability to do great things. But there's a super high risk there as well. And I think it's fear. That's all I— that's what I can sort of see in the future from a derailment perspective.
Al ElliottSo, Leanne, is Elon Musk a psychopath or sociopath?
Leanne ElliottI think there is a case for a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder. I think he's made it quite clear that he does lack in empathy. The more recent developments we've seen from Twitter, this demand that people remain at Twitter, buy into this hustle culture, this hardcore culture, I think not only does that show a lack of remorse in terms of the way he's already gone back about his decision-making, but also a lack of regard for other people and potentially a violation of their rights as well. There is evidence of lawbreaking as well, which we've seen from how and when he disclosed that he purchased so many Twitter shares, right through to other claims in SpaceX. Yes, I think while of course we can't make any firm conclusions on the psychopathology of Elon Musk. This is all conjecture. I think between our research, Sandy's expertise, and our knowledge of leadership behaviours here at Oblong, I think we can be fairly confident that we are seeing— that what we are seeing for sure is Elon Musk derailing. And this could very well be the start of his downfall.
Al ElliottDefinitely interesting times. It'd be fun to see— come back in about 6 months' time and see what's happened. Just want to thank Sandy. Just an amazing guy. You can see he's got so much knowledge. So if you want Sandy to help you with either executive search or coaching, leadership coaching, or you want to do your own Hogan psychometric test, then you can find Sandy at Amrope UK. I'll put a link in the show notes. Just make sure— and if you, if you have enjoyed this, just go and find him on Twitter or something or LinkedIn and just say thanks, enjoyed your episode. I think they think you'd really like that. So next week we're talking about psychological safety. Leanne's going to give again her opinion on it, and then we've got a great guest who's going to come on, and it's basically what he does. So we'll be learning a bit more about that. So until next time, anything to add, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottI don't think so.
Al ElliottGreat. Thanks for joining us, and hope you've enjoyed this slightly longer episode. Give us feedback. Just find us on the socials, Truth, Lies and Work. You search for that and you'll find us everywhere, won't you, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYou absolutely will.
Al ElliottSee you next time. Bye-bye.